How do we talk about our differences?

Season 3, Episode 1: “How Do We Talk About Our Differences?”

Fr. Brian and Pastor Chris begin the new season with a question at the heart of their friendship: How can we talk honestly about our differences and still grow closer? They share how curiosity, careful listening, and a willingness to ask questions can turn a difficult conversation into a chance to understand someone better.

Then they put that approach into practice, discussing Catholic and Protestant views on authority, salvation, and purgatory. They do not expect to settle every question in one episode. Their invitation is simpler: seek to understand the person in front of you, keep the conversation going, and let love shape the way you disagree.

If you would like us to answer any questions on the podcast please email: 2pastors1calling@gmail.com.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Well, welcome back to another season of Two Pastors One Calling. I'm Father Brian. I'm here with Pastor Chris, or sometimes Chris and Brian, depending on how we're talking that day. And the thing is, we have a very exciting season come up for you this. This is season three, episode one. We have a lot of fun things today to talk about. And the thing is this last season we covered a lot about what's like being a pastor. You know, what are those topics we deal with? How do you lead people? How do you lead change? You know, what are those game changer type things? We had even had a guest last season too. You know, and the thing is though, this this season, we're taking a little bit of a curve and saying this. We're talking more about how do we talk about our differences? That's number one. Number two, you know, how do we help understand people's perception and manage those things? Then we're also gonna talk about like, you know, what are those misconceptions that we have between Catholics and Protestants? And then, you know, how do we serve the poor? You know, the thing is, and then one, we're gonna have a uh episode on what are those questions you always want to ask someone on the other side of the aisle. You know, so yeah, so that's all coming up this season. But today, today's gonna be a very interesting uh episode because we're starting off with a bag a little bit today. Because it's it's it's like, how do we talk about our differences? That's our main topic today, because that's a topic that actually some people have asked us to talk about already. That's right. And you know, and we've been kind of like, well, let's let's give it a little time, let's let's build some build some momentum first. But now we're kind of like, you know what? I think it's the right time to start thinking about how can we help people understand how to talk about differences with their friends. Because I think that that we all have differences, we all have things that we we won't agree upon, and nobody will ever agree a hundred percent on anything. That's just human nature. But the question is, but we are able to have those conversations and in such a way where we find a way to walk with that person. So I think that so that that's our main topic today.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, and I think what's interesting as we and before we dive in, yeah, like uh, and I think you and I are very similar in this. When we meet someone new, we're striving to see what's similar rather than what's different. Now I know everybody's wired different. Some of you you meet somebody, and those differences is what you're looking at. And what's very interesting is so Father Brian reached out to me a couple of years ago and said, hey man, let's get together. And so at first, I was naturally this tendency of, oh man, he's Catholic, I'm Protestant, I know there's a lot of differences. Any of our listeners, you don't even have to have much of a church background to be like, wait, wait a second. The Protestant Church was literally formed from acknowledging here's our differences. We're protesting, we're leaving the Catholic, you know. And so it is kind of funny as we tell people we have this podcast, or as you guys talk to us kind of offline, it's the I can't believe this. A Catholic and a Protestant are sitting and talking. And so, again, what's been nice about our friendship is we've spent a lot more time identifying what's similar and what's the same. And so, even though today we're gonna talk about differences, like I want to challenge you to even consider as you meet somebody different at work, as you meet somebody different at school in life, you can recognize this person's older than me, younger than me, a different race than me, whatever it is. I challenge you to first approach and say, man, what's this what's what's similar first? And then as we discover differences, and we're even gonna challenge you this episode, kind of begin to appreciate some of those differences, even though you may not agree. Yeah.

unknown 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

So I think we uh when we we start this, when we start this episode, I think it's really just kind of like we can recognize that you know, differences can be scary. They can be frightening because how many times have you have we just listened to respond and think about like, okay, I have this, I have this thought in my head, I want to make sure this person knows exactly what I think. And and so I have the right response to say to this person because I know I know what they're gonna say, and all and all we're doing is listening for that one phrase, and we're gonna say, well, but wait a minute. No, we're right because of this. Yeah, and then all of a sudden we we turn that conversation now into a fight. Yeah, you know, and and when we were talking about before, we went from dialogue to debate. And debate is not what we want. Debate has its place in some areas and arenas, but not in conversation, yeah. And so what we want to do is call dialogue. Yep. Dialogue is literally just trying to walk the journey together with words, really. And the two or three people walk just talking about things and trying to figure out where we're at, where we stand, but also trying to understand where the other other person's coming from. Because at the end of the day, we won't understand or appreciate that person until we know what what they believe, what they think, and what they love. And then that helps us to get them all the more know them all the better as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah. So as you're thinking about that, like what do you think it is that frightens people about someone who is different or has a different background or a different belief?

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Like, what do you think is scary? I mean, I'll let you think for a second. I was thinking about roommates, right? Because uh one thing that we differ in is values, right? Everybody has a set of values and a priority of those values, right? And so I discovered this like when I went to college and you had different roommates. So a roommate may value and say, Man, I value relationships. And the other roommate may be like, Man, I value getting good grades. So I need the apartment or the dorm to be quiet. The other person's like, no, I need to stay up till 3:30 in the morning and have all these relationships. And it's not that one value is necessarily right or wrong, but then they have to live together and actually execute. And so I wonder, even sometimes at work, when you have a boss, an employee, whatever, that you have different values, it's like, man, how's this gonna look? I wonder if that makes some people nervous because they're like, man, I'm scared that since we have different values, we're not gonna be able to live together, we're not gonna be able to work together, we're not gonna be able to attend the same church together, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, I think I think first and foremost, our the differences bring up, can bring up our insecurities. Ooh, that's a good one. You know, is I think that we we all of a sudden think that we're lacking somehow. Yeah. Or on the other end, we think we're superior. And I think both are both are on the extremes and both are problems because both of them are looking at ourselves first instead of looking at the other person first. And I think the the idea is when we appreciate that other people are different than us, is that we appreciate that there's you know a lot of different people out there, a lot of different thoughts, a lot of different ideologies, a lot of different spiritualities. And that helps us to remind ourselves that it's okay. You know, as long as it's not immoral, unethical, illegal, you know, that's the problem there. But as you know, but outside of that, I mean, it's it's okay to have these different ideas. Because sometimes some of some of our closest friends are though, are people who don't agree with us, but we've come to have a great relationship. Yeah. And so I think that that's just we have to get past the sense of insecurity or superiority because that that it it it makes us like looking on ourselves and builds a bubble around us. And that bubble then makes us feel safe in a world where there's just a many different types of thoughts and things. So the so that the idea of only to feel safe can can bring about inferiority or or or superiority. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I think about too, like as we if we can talk in a healthy way about our differences, a pro a pro in that is it can increase like your own personal conviction. And you can discover things even about yourself as you're discovering things about a neighbor, a coworker, a friend, family member, and it can increase your conviction and as you said, like like your appreciation for them, even though, again, you may not agree with them. Okay. And so what we wanted to do today for a little trial is we wanted to try to discover some of the differences between us. And so we joked around in the beginning. So I like peanuts, and Brian, tell him I I cannot eat peanuts.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

I would have very bad problems.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Yes, he's allergic. I mean, like this could be like hospital, right? If we did not worse. So if we go to a baseball game, we go to a Reds game, and I'm ordering peanuts, like he's literally gonna get up and leave where we're sitting. So that's uh yeah, that's that's a fun difference.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

It's a it's a fun difference, you know. There's our sports teams. So you said you said the Reds, so there's some similarity there. That's right. But you know, but our college football teams. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

I'm a Texas AM Maggie. I'm a Cincinnati bear cat. There you go. Yeah. That's right. We don't cross paths too much.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So we don't think it's pretty good because your team will win.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

That's right. Well, and Brian is a bigger basketball fan. I will watch basketball, but I would not call myself a fan of basketball, and I'm definitely not good at basketball at all. Okay, fair.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

You know, I actually I I I just very recently wrote wrote uh an article for our our parish about about the weekly article about things and said, you know, my my I finished my my basketball career in seminary because I played in high school, coached high school basketball. Then we had in seminary, we had basketball tournaments. And, you know, I realized at 33 that I was the wily veteran of the seminary circuit, you know, of these kids who were like the mid and mid to early 20s. And you know, and I realized then because I played basketball and coached and I knew a lot about basketball, and these kids didn't. Because like I'm at 33 going, if they knew basketball, I could not play with these kids because they're yeah, they're faster, they're they're quicker, they're a little stronger, and I'm getting old. So, but I it was a great time. Um but I was the Wiley veteran who was able to play on the on the on the court with them. So it was great. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So let's talk like some differences with Protestant and Catholic. Sure. So uh we don't know exactly where this conversation is gonna go, but the idea is to uh seek an understanding and even an appreciation. So I shared with Brian before we started this podcast, I think some of it comes with an assumption. So whenever I I heard this quote one time that said, practice curiosity before assumption. So curiosity tends to be more questions and trying to get to understand. So I'm curious because I have an assumption that I don't know if it's right or wrong. So it might be an assumption about uh not only a Catholic, but specifically Brian, because he's Catholic and because he serves in leadership in the Catholic Church. So my assumption is there's multiple veins of authority in the Catholic Church. And here's what I mean. Like for my tradition, for Protestants, we would say the Bible is our first and final and only authority. And so when we think about our view of God or our view of ourselves or the world, we'd say the only authority for us is scripture. My understanding, slash, let's say at this point, assumption is for the Catholic Church, it's both the Bible and then also church tradition, as well as my misunderstanding is what role does the current Pope have in speaking authoritative of an interpretation or speaking on behalf of God? So my question would be hey Brian, tell me more about like what speaks who or how does uh do you personally receive authority as far as direction of who God is and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

So yeah, so I would say this. I would say you're you're correct in the sense of um uh divine revelation comes we are in two spots. It's it's sacred, sacred uh the the scriptures and sacred tradition. So sacred scriptures and sacred tradition. So now it's capital T tradition, not lowercase t tradition. So what I mean by that is we believe tradition, the capital T ended with the last death of the apostles. So uh so we we believe that that what the what the apostles spoke within their communities was also part of divine revelation because of their closest to Jesus. But once John the Apostle passed away, that's the end of divine revelation on earth. So it's the sacred sacred tradition and sacred scriptures, and they're they're like two two veins working together. Um now, but the Pope today, uh we the Pope, um, the papal authority that we have is that um it's it's actually not as uh uh wide as what people actually think that it is. Okay. So people hear saying that that people can he pay the Pope can have an infallible statement. Well, infallible statements only happen, if only happened four or five times in the history of the church. And it happens because um then the Pope can't just make it an infallible statement by himself. The Pope has to understand something that has been that has been believed by the church in the pious tradition for a long time, and held by the College of Cardinals so that so that it's so it's it's a part of the the the lived faith of the church, and that's that's only been it's only happened four or five times since 1854. And then one was the the first one was the Macconception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the second was the assumption of Blessed Virgin Mary. The the next two um is didn't come till uh John Paul II in uh in um Evangelion of Vitae, where he said abortion and uh and and euthanasia is wrong at all times, all places. So those are the only infallible statements that has ever been created. So that but the Pope can't do it by himself, he can only do it when it's it's in the the life of the church and the the college of cardinals already believe that as well. So so that's so yeah, so there so but that but it would not be divine revelation as we said previously. It's just it's but it's something that's been in the church for a long time that the Pope is saying, yes, it's been a part of it, and and for that reason, I from the chair of Peter, in in union with the college of of my brother bishops, college of cardinals, will say this. So yeah, so yeah, so that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Yeah, yeah. And so for Protestants, I don't think that we realize a lot of times we recognize the interpretation by church fathers, and oftentimes our doctrine and beliefs are not only informed by scripture, but by orthodox Christian beliefs. And so, in fact, that would be something like a Protestant leader would probably be like, Man, when someone brings up a new idea that's not from an Orthodox historical point of view of Christianity, uh, that's kind of a at least a yellow flag, if not a red flag. It's like, okay, so like for instance, denying the Trinity would be one of ours because that's an Orthodox Christian belief. Oh, yeah, but the word Trinity is not in Scripture at all. So it's all the interpretation of looking at the way that God presents Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And that's something we have similar. We recognize the Trinity, but it is based on the historical translation and or not translation, but uh the interpretation of how scripture presents God. And so it's kind of funny because uh some Protestants might just assume and say, oh man, well, the Catholics, they have this uh addition to scripture, but I think we have to acknowledge and admit that we also have a tradition, if that makes sense. Sure, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah. You know, I actually that actually goes to a nice new, like, you know, uh wave into the next next one where we we were talking about faith and works before too. That's right. You know, so I think that that there's a certain level where where we were talking more about like what is it, what how do what what do we hold and believe of what have how salvation happens? So I mean one of my assumptions that we were talking about assumptions that we have is that we talk about you know faith alone and scripture alone, correct? Now, now I don't uh I can assume what that means, but I but I need you to help me understand what that means.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, that's right. So we would say like the the five solas, you know, like so it's uh for the glory of God alone, uh through scripture alone reveals that salvation comes through Christ alone, by faith alone. And so you have we believe that uh the only way to be saved is by God's grace, his unmerited, undeserved favor that results in us having a faith in the person and the work of Christ. So not only who he is, the sinless son of God, but his work, his atonement for us on the cross and believing in his death, burial, and resurrection, who he is, what he's done is the only way to be saved. And there's no other work. Our only work would be the work of faith to them. And so sometimes I think, like for Protestants and Catholics, they'll say, Well, what it feels like the Catholic Church might add to that and say, We almost have to have faith in Christ alone, but you also have to do, and then how would you respond when somebody says that?

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah, I see, you know, actually everything you'd said, we we would hold and agree with because we we believe that salvation only comes in Jesus Christ in his life, death, and resurrection. And so I think that that we would not hold anything different to that. Now, though when we talk about works, that's where it gets a little muddy, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Because what we see This might be a difference, so let's keep talking.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Yeah, because I think that what we talk about it, we talk about what's called cooperation. And I think that that's um we we we what we would hold is that through our life our Lord's life, death, and resurrection is that we have redemption and then salvation comes with us cooperating with that grace. Let's say you're talking about the only grace of God, then we cooperate with that in order to uh become holier as our life goes on. And then salvation comes through our cooperation with with Him. And so I think that that the slight difference I think is because is that one word we're saying is cooperation. Where but but I don't think he would you would I don't think he would disagree with cooperation.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Yeah, I'm trying to think, yeah, define it.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, yeah, because what that means is that is that for me to for me to have salvation, I must allow God's love and mercy to trans transform my heart to be more like his. And in doing so, so then my works, like my actions, my habits should be more virtuous than sinful. And so what so what we're talking about then is that my life then becomes more patterned after Christ by His grace, which I cannot do on my own. And and there's no way that I can, I there's no way that I can get myself to heaven because we actually had a heresy about that back in the 300s called plagianism. And play what plagiarism said is that there is uh there could be there could be some way somehow someone can will themselves to heaven outside the grace of God. And the Catholic Church said, no, that's impossible. We can't do that. We can't even move from repentance from sin to repentance without the grace of God.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

So so our so our our cooperation is only with the grace of God. And so that's so and and then and God's grace then moves us to become closer to Him. Yeah. So so everything about cooperation is like moving closer to God. Yeah. And so and it's nothing to do with with now I've done so many works, like you know, I've I've built 5,000 houses for the poor, which is great things. We should all do that, but that doesn't mean I get to heaven because of that. Yeah, I only get to heaven because I cooperate with the grace of God.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah. So I'm gonna say a phrase and tell me what you think about this as far as you think. So we might say something like this works don't earn your salvation, works are an evidence of your salvation. We'd agree. So as you hear that, are you what what comes to your mind?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Well, I I would uh well, what I would say is that is that how letter of St. James, uh where Letter of St. James says, you know, uh show me a faithful that works and I'll show you a faith that is dead. And I think that it just reminds us that our our works is a product of our faith. That's right, and it flows from that, but it become but the the that faith that's that's now from the grace of God first, and our works become the way we show our faith.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now we have among the Protestants, there's a lot of division, right? We call them denominations, and there's hundreds of them. I should probably know this, but I don't, but lots. And it's when we identify difference, yeah. Sometimes what we do is we decide whether that difference, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly, is big enough to break fellowship. And basically, then the six of us are gonna go over here and we're gonna start a new type of denomination or a new type of church because we broke. So one of ours among Protestants is the view of apostasy. Ah, sure. So this is the idea that that someone can be genuinely saved and then lose their salvation. And so, like our specific church uh would say we believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of saints. So, in other words, if someone's genuinely saved, there's no way they could lose their salvation. So, in a pragmatic way, if somebody was a follower of Jesus and they're like, I'm all in, and then two years later they're like, dude, I don't believe in Jesus at all. I don't follow him at all. We would say, Oh, that's evidence that they were never saved. Gotcha. Does that make sense? Yep. Whereas the Catholic Church officially would probably fall more under a legitimate apostasy as possible, right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so elaborate on that. Like help us understand.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, so we we you we we would say that apostasy is possible until it's about leaving the church, but it doesn't mean that you're outside the grace of God. And I think the one thing how we would say that then is like if we go all the way back to St. Augustine, and he there was the Donatist uh heresy, where the Donatists said that because they had a lot of people who are apostatizing because of being in um persecution. And the question was if you do that, can they be brought back? If they the donatist would say, if you left the church, well then you've you can't you can't be brought back. And St. Augustine said, well, no, because of your baptism, your baptism is you're always baptized to Christ. That's not that's that that never leaves. But the but the problem is like can we can we go away from God? We surely can because of because of sin. And through and when when we're in a state of mortal sin, we need God's grace to move us back. Yeah. And then so we separate ourselves through mortal sin, and then but God moves us to repentance to bring us back to, like I said before, we cooperate to bring us back to Him. And so I think that that uh there is a sense of apostasy, but we also believe that through through God's grace, He moves us to repentance to bring us back to Him. Yeah. And so what we call that, we we call that prevalence grace. And prevalence grace is the grace, again. It's it comes before, meaning like it comes before us our movement. And as soon as as soon as we're in a state of mortal sin, meaning we've broken one of the Ten Commandments, those type of things, we've now separated ourselves and and we and uh and we need God to move us back.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

And so that so that's how we would talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Yeah, yeah. So let's I'm checking our tongue. I'll give you one more, one more that's intriguing, I definitely think for a Protestant hearing this. So tell us more about purgatory.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

How how did that uh belief arise? Where does it arrive? And then who ends up in purgatory? How does it work? As much as that you might think is interesting to somebody who doesn't know very much about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

So I think really quick, I think I think that that um we we call it the four last things.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Okay, four last things.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Because uh um death, judgment, heaven, hell. Okay, okay. And then so those are the four last things. And then so when we we can when we we believe there's two two judgments. You have the particular judgment and the final judgment. Okay. So when we when we die, we we do the what's called a particular judgment, where where it's like you'll go to whatever place that we've merited through our cooperation with God, you know? And so even marriage is not not it's not the right word. But uh, but you know, what purgatory says is that um hell is for those people who have chosen truly to go away from God. So hell, we we we believe hell is a choice, it's not a punishment. Okay, because we believe that hell is for people who who who God never once he said one person is hell is too is too many. But um, but that's for people who have totally chosen to go away from God and not cooperated with his love and mercy. Purgatory says, I've cooperated, but the sins in my life, there's still the effects of the sins which I've not atoned for yet that still need that still need to be cleansed. And Jesus said, no one can come to the Father unclean. And that's that's that's wherever purgatory really comes from. Yeah. And so and what purgatory is is that final cleansing, the final cleansing which we can no longer do. So like here on earth, you know, we we we can do um we can do penances. Uh we, you know, that's why during Lent, we do, we do alms and and and and penances throughout all those things, alms giving, um, sacrifices, all those things. Um and then, but but once we pass away, we can no longer do that for ourselves. We need God, we need the purification that comes from God's love and mercy and our prayers from us here on earth for the people who pass on before us. And so purgatory then is is the way to be purified so that we can be fully in in front of God for eternity.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

And how does that purification happen?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Is there something the person in purgatory is doing, or is it well that it's very we believe it's passive. So the person can no longer do anything for themselves at that point in time because that's this life. Now they they they rely on the the prayers of the the faithful here on earth and the loving love and mercy of God because because you now on earth we we can we can make up for our sins, we can atone for our sins, but then once we pass on, we can no longer personally atone, but but can only allow have people to do prayers first so that we can be atoned for them. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah. So how would you say like Jesus' death on the cross it it does it have the power for full atonement, or is it that cooperation aspect?

SPEAKER_00 25:23

It's cooperation because the atonement is because of my sins. So what what with with with the cross and the resurrection, with my sins, I still need then I mean I need to make up for those because what because I I sinned against my you know my sins against God and my and my in my neighbor. And so uh so the cooper it's a cooperation thing. It's not uh it is it is not lacking in Christ's uh death and resurrection, it's lacking in myself, which need to be made up for.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Okay, okay. So how is that not like earning salvation in some ways?

SPEAKER_00 25:59

That's a great point. That's a great question because I it's not earning because um we we don't do works to to make it better. Well, what we're doing is is that it's kind of like how in the in the parables where there's there there's there's the the steward who owes so much money, and then the the the the uh the owner uh forgives him of it all, but then but then he goes off and and you know someone owes him money, but he won't forgive him. So the idea is that it's not it's not earning because what we owe to God is because of our sins. And and and and and what we have done needs to be made right with God.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Because of our baptism. And so the so the earning part has nothing to do with my works of earning it, but but what I what I need to to make the relationship I may I I've made wrong with God. It's all about that.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Okay, okay. Yeah, so as you can see us talking, like the idea is to try to ask questions to better understand and appreciate this person's view. And then especially when it comes to um, I'm gonna call it religious, but let's call it also a person's relationship with God, it's so personal that you realize you're going into a part of somebody's life and heart that is so personal and there's some mystery to it. I mean, the Apostle Paul uses language like that, and so you're never gonna meet somebody, or I would say rather, maybe I would caution you if you meet somebody that says to you, man, I have got God 100% figured out, I would say at least yellow flagback, be like, now wait a second, because God is an infinite God. So any characteristic, any attribute, in fact, there's some theological uh positions that I hold that at the end of the day, I have to just be humble enough to say, man, it's a God thing. Yep. You're like, wait a second, you didn't fully explain that. Yeah, it's a God thing. So the Trinity would be a good example. I believe in the Trinity wholeheartedly, but it cannot be fully explained. Like to unto deny the Trinity is to lose your soul. To explain the Trinity is to lose your mind.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Like it's hard to fully grasp. It's really good.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

And so at the same time, there are concepts of man, that's just a God thing. Like I, in other words, it is so beyond my understanding. And it may be because of my own lack of intelligence, or it may just be, man, that's concept is so grasp, you know, grave and strong that it's hard to explain. So, what I mean though is as we're talking, as we're discussing, uh, you'll notice Brian and I didn't sit there and try to fight for agreement. It was more a fight for understanding, which ultimately can result in an appreciation. Now, clearly, in a 30-minute podcast, we're not trying to we could have picked one small thing and spent two and a half years probably discussing and probably would have never come to a point of agreement.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Right, you know, and that's not the point. The point is not agreement, the the point is appreciation. That's right. I know that I'm not going, I'm my job is not to convince you. My job is to answer your question and explain and to help understand. And and uh and your job is not try to convince me, but it's trying to help us understand better what we hold and believe personally and as as people who are leaders of churches too. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, and that's why I personally do not have a problem that there are different churches. Like in our area, we have well over 400 different churches within, you know, I don't know, 20 miles of where we're sitting right now. And it's because some of these differences, they're not essential beliefs, but they're non-essentials that may differ in how we connect with God. But helping to understand and appreciate is just a valuable thing. So as you're talking to neighbors, and we're gonna talk more about that later and talking to friends, like really seek to understand. And again, uh I'm gonna steal that crow, like practice curiosity before assumption. Just because somebody is, oh, that guy is, you know, he is a Baptist, so that means I know everything he believes. No, ask him or her what they believe. Or just because they are a Catholic doesn't mean they you gotta listen and and ask and say, what do you think about this or that?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Well, and sometimes what you have to do is go back and say, wait a minute, I actually need to make make a slight all slight correction of what I said. Actually, I need to do for this for this podcast too. Oh because when we're talking about papal infallibility, I said the college of cardinals. Well, it's in all with so not all bishops are cardinals, but all cardinals are bishops. So it's the Pope in union with with the bishops of the church, not his college of cardinals. So it's it's a small point, but it's a it's a really big point. That's right. So I decided to go back and say, hey, you know what? I need to make sure I make I get that, I need to correct myself. So so I I one, it's an integrity thing, but two, I don't want people out there going, well, father, you know, it's it's it's actually the bishops, isn't that?

SPEAKER_01 30:32

You got that wrong, yeah. So say that one part real quick that the not all cardinals are bishops.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

So all all not so every cardinal is a bishop, but not every bishop's a cardinal. So that the cardinals are the ones who who end up choosing the Pope when they when they when you call me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

So see, that's great to understand, too. And that's one thing I really do appreciate. I ask you a lot of questions, yeah, and I ask the same question over because sometimes I forget the answer, uh, just because it's intriguing to me. The Catholic Church has been around a long time and it's got a lot of traditions and beautiful things uh that are unique, and even the structure is different, you know, and it's uh and so it's intriguing to me. It helps me kind of get insight more on your life than just uh an academic exercise. And so I think that's one of the things we we've said here today is finding differences less threatening, and that's really important in our culture too, because I think right now our differences, man, it seems like it's dividing us. So how can you have differences but remain united is is what we want to try to help people in their apps.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yeah, that's that's yeah, that's that's the main goal right there, you know. And I think that at the end of the day, we you know, we as human beings are more complicated than just what our thoughts are or what our labels, quote unquote, are if we're Catholic, Protestant, if we're traditional, progressive, we're more complicated than that. Yep. And I think and and God made us in such a way that that we aren't we aren't those labels. We are his we are his children, and we have to remember that first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

And my final thing before we wrap up is just as you talk to your friends, family, neighbors, strangers, and you discover differences, how can you keep the conversation going? Because there's certain ways we can just shut things down. And Jesus said, Look, the world is gonna know that you're my disciples, not by your differences, it's actually by your love for one another. And so, even though Brian and I will walk out of this room with some differences, can we learn to love one another and thus prove to the world that we are followers of Jesus Christ? And so I encourage you, keep the conversation going. Learn to love and appreciate uh each other's differences. And we're excited to see you next time. Thanks again for listening to today two pastors, one calling. See you next time.