Make Heaven Crowded

What Will Heaven Actually Be Like? | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 23

• TeamFBC • Season 1 • Episode 23

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we explore one of the biggest questions people have about eternity: What will heaven actually be like?

For many people, heaven is imagined as clouds, harps, and floating spirits — but is that really the picture the Bible gives us? Scripture paints a much bigger and more beautiful vision of eternity than most of us realize.

We dive into questions like:

• What happens immediately after we die?
• Will heaven be a spiritual place, a physical place, or both?
• What does the Bible mean by the new heaven and new earth?
• What will we actually do for eternity?

This conversation isn’t about speculation — it’s about going back to Scripture and rediscovering the incredible hope Christians have in the life to come.

Because when we understand the future God promises, it changes how we live right now.

🎙️ Series: Make Heaven Crowded Podcast
📖 Topics: Heaven, Eternity, Resurrection, New Creation
🌐 Learn more at: teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_02

Well, hello, thanks for joining us for Make Heaven Crowded. This is the podcast where we uh dive deep at Team FBC on what we talked about on Sunday, but also what's going on in our community and across the entire world. Today's a little bit different because we're not going to talk at all about what we talked about on Sunday, mainly because we didn't have to talk on Sunday. We actually got a Sunday where we got to relax. Oh, let me say as well, Pastor Jordan, Pastor Luke, Pastor Roger.

SPEAKER_00

Can you imagine if this was just Roger's podcast? I've been trying to make it. That would be you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you two are my subordinates on the podcasting. But we uh I say we we took a morning off. We were still running around. But uh Jasper Kent out of Georgia uh for our Disciple Now weekend, he gave the word on Sunday. Uh a lot of great feedback on how Jasper did.

SPEAKER_01

We kind of turned into Ushers. Uh especially Second Service, because man, it was a packed house.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Usher, Ludicus, and Lil.

SPEAKER_02

The three. Yeah, that's what we were on Sunday. And so for your time.

SPEAKER_01

Is it one of those guys from St. Louis? That's Nelly. Oh, that's Nelly. That's how much I know. Exactly. Yeah, you love your rap. You're uh Marky Mark here. If you only knew what rap I know from when it first came out. Ice Ice Baby. No.

SPEAKER_02

Anyways, so Jasper gave the word on Sunday, did a great job, and it kind of gives us an opportunity to talk a little bit about discipleship and just our role as Christians when it comes to what discipleship looks like. So Luke, I'll let you go from there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, Jasper, he man, made me feel old, but also it's kind of crazy. He said it was his sixth year coming down and doing D now. That's nuts. So you know, when we first started this in what, 2022, 2021. 21, it was 2021. 21 was our first year doing this. I remember we were in the theater, we had 79 students for the first one.

SPEAKER_02

And I remember looking at the great thinking, we will never go up from that. There's no way.

SPEAKER_00

This was still a great number. The most incredible.

SPEAKER_02

I remember one of my first weeks on staff was you and I talking to Mike Lawson because we did the the games with Mike Lawson, Rest in Peace, and uh that was 21.

SPEAKER_00

So we had 79 that first one, and Jasper's like, man, what's going on in this community? And then you know, we invited him back next year, and the next year we had 130 something. So we almost doubled, you know, in one year. And then the next year we had one like 180. Yeah. And then since then, after that one, we about took the went through the floor of the theater because they were jumping up and down so loud.

SPEAKER_02

Is that how great that was? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I recorded that. Outstanding. I was crying. It was so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

So that was our last one in the theater, and after we about went through the floor, they moved. We moved it to the sanctuary, and since then been over 200, over 260 kids, you know, that this weekend.

SPEAKER_01

And as we talked uh the percentage standpoint of that, yeah, um over 10% of our town's youth from a or sixth grade to senior is in our building. When you I mean, that sounds like 10%, maybe that's a lot, but um, when you go and take that to a Kansas City or something like that, that would mean that 200,000 kids would be in one church. So on a percentage standpoint per capita, it's absolutely off the charts. Insane.

SPEAKER_02

There's these are numbers that Jesse Rungi, uh, who's one of our uh boys small group leaders for high school, and he talked to me at church. He said, There's something going on that this community has never seen. When it comes, I mean, like these these boys, and of course, he's with the boys. Senior boys, yeah. He said that they're they're on fire in a way that I didn't think was possible.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, like it just did you see the fire that comes out of him when he's just so amped up with how these guys are eating it up.

SPEAKER_02

It's just a movement.

SPEAKER_00

It is a movement that's you know, his group, he he was talking about they were up till the middle of the night, like 3 a.m., just having a prayer, like just praying over each other. And they said, you had senior boys just crying, like literally just crying over each other, unheard, just praying for one another.

SPEAKER_02

If I was the small group leader, I mean, like, they'd be like, where's the leader? And I would be snoring in the other. They're all in the room crying, or you know, praying, and I'm just sawing logs.

SPEAKER_01

But I mean, I'm going, I've and I'm thinking back to I mean, this I'm going way back, but when you were senior, you would have never heard seen or heard of something like that. Senior Roger was a Christian.

SPEAKER_02

Senior Roger was staying up at 3 a.m. to play Call of Duty Modern Warfare. Like it again, it's just it's a movement.

SPEAKER_01

And I remember my church camp days, and I remember those things, and there was not that happening.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I'm telling you, and the Lord wrecked me on Saturday night, whenever you know we were counting it up, and we figured out, oh my gosh, it's 10% of our students. And it just hit me. He said, Bring me the 10% and watch what I do with the rest. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so, like, I really am excited about that was cool.

SPEAKER_01

That was very cool. When I heard you say that, I'm like, oh wow. Yeah, that is that's a neat way to put it. But I got wrecked when he when Jasper was done and the praise team came out, and he just I this is a moment of reflection, yeah. And just the kids that flooded down, it was just like and like I didn't I think you need to know like there's nobody singing at that point.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, it is literally just they're playing the piano and the background music, and it's just a moment where we're in the presence of the Lord, and the altar is full. Yeah, like kids are just going up and taking things to them, so there was no like music draw, there was nothing, it was just total, complete surrender.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's powerful. And to the courage it would take, uh, and I'm and I'm obviously I'm looking at the perspective from my day where the courage to step out like that in front of that many of your peers and go forward because you know the first one that walks up, all eyes. Yeah, I mean, we're talking 250 kids, so 500 eyes are on you walking forward to go kneel at the altar. Yeah, that's hard. That takes a lot of courage to step up and go, I'm going, I don't care what anybody thinks of me. I'm going up there. Yeah, but then what that that opened the floodgates of other kids. I mean, it was just once one went, it was just like they all wanted to go up there. Yeah, and it was just like, man, I just there's something in there, there's just something uh the courage that kids are having to be just they're courageous about their faith. Yeah and it's just so cool. And for uh Jesse Rungi, he then gets just fired.

SPEAKER_02

Um and I think that's the the beauty of the gospel when you see it move is that you can look at a photo or a video and in some way say, you know, I was a part of that. And so for Jesse to see that and to say, every kid that's at that altar, I have a role in that. And you know, we're former youth pastors, and to see where what we kind of inherited five, six years ago, of course, Luke was before me, but then to see kind of the the how that has just become the norm. And even when we do worship nights, who is the one that leads the altar more often than not? It's our students, they're the first ones that are heading to the altar. That is unheard of in the culture of church, and yet that is what we were seeing. And I just keep going back to like there is actual revival that is occurring, yeah, and it's being spearheaded by the youngest, by the kids, by the teenagers. And man, that just it literally gives me goosebumps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, then it doesn't stop here because that and even before D now, we're hearing about middle schoolers that are having Bible studies of their own, they're gathering in the hallway and circling up and praying at school. Yeah, same thing in the high school as well. We're hearing about senior boys that are putting together ministry group to buy do Bible studies together and to dig in and then take that and be missional with it. Again, unheard of. Yeah, that does not happen normally.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, so the one thing I would want parents to hear is like we love um sometimes inadvertently trashing this generation. Oh, you know, and we talk about the stuff that happens in culture with furries and all this stuff and gender identity and all that stuff. Uh, don't sell this generation too short because they have the ability and the potential to do what is happening right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, even in talking with Jasper at the start of it, just hey, how are you? Good to see you. Thanks for coming back. And he's like, I can't believe you keep asking me back. Yeah. But what he was we were talking about is just the one, the numbers, but then he was started talking about what it was so encouraging to him was that he's seeing the kids from the early ones now becoming leaders. Yeah. And this it's this this it's a system, it's like a farm team.

SPEAKER_00

And what you mean by building some the ones that have graduated high school are now coming back and serving as the young adult leaders.

SPEAKER_02

Well, to well, to give it to context, when he came here and Jalen, I'll use Jalen Keller, was a seventh grader. Jalen Keller is now graduating high school, so she is now, you know, a senior. So literally, when he came here, for for a student that has been here since the first D now, they have been with Jasper every single year from middle school and now until high school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So and so Jasper was talking about his age on stage. He's like, Oh, I feel like I'm getting old. I'm what's he 30, knocking on the door 40, and like bro, whatever, bro. Yeah, he does. He doesn't gain weight. And so in that, I was just kind of like, okay, these kids, do they feel an older guy is relevant to them? And so I asked my kids, what do you guys think of Jasper? Their immediate response is, he is so awesome. They love him. Which you know, love him. You know how long he preached on Saturday night? Oh, man, that was a long.

SPEAKER_00

We were there a while. 75 minutes. How long he was on stage.

SPEAKER_01

And here's the thing they were and that was the other thing I was so blown away by is these kids are dog tired. I mean, the night before, I know my son had our 90 minutes. I mean, he went down to minutes on how much sleep he got. Yeah. Then there are activities all day long, service projects, games, and then they're sitting in a dark, warm room at eight o'clock at night, and they are fully engaged. Because when Jasper would say certain things, they would just burst out in cheers. And you're like, whoa, they're still listening. You know, preaching for 75 minutes.

SPEAKER_00

That's not how long the service was, 75 minutes. He was on stage preaching for 75 minutes. There was worship on both ends of that.

SPEAKER_02

Which kind of goes flies in the face of all the data that we've created that says that the attention span of you know, children, it's 20, you have 20 minutes, blah, blah, blah. Well, apparently they they're the exception because that was not the case.

SPEAKER_00

You know, he was talking about this, and I was talking to Jasper. Um, you know, how much time did Moses spend face to face with God on top of the mountain?

SPEAKER_01

Oh my goodness. Uh almost 70 days or something like that.

SPEAKER_00

But how quick do you think that felt for Moses? You know, like being in his presence. And so that's what he's talking about. The Israelites thought he was never coming back, but you know, and I'm gonna be talking about I'm preaching to the students this Wednesday um to give Tori and Gabe, you know, a Wednesday off. And what I'm gonna be talking about is actually what uh Jasper and I talked about is you know, we talk about this spiritual high of oh, what we had this week and going on. Well, they're not called to stay on top of the mountain. But Moses came down off the mountain to take what he had learned from God to the rest of the people. It is how do you when you come down off the mountain sustain the experience you had when you saw God's face on top of the mountain? Yeah. And so, like, why were they able to sit there for 75 minutes? Well, they're in the fully engulfed in the presence of the Lord, you know, seeking his face. So now how do they take that and go down off the mountain? That's what we're talking about Wednesday. But phenomenal we it's yeah, like we talked about 10%. But I mean, I what fired me up too was those baptisms. You have somebody like Isaac Vargas, um, who just got baptized a year ago at our worship night. Now he's turning around, and who we got to baptize, I'm telling you, me, Jax Glendon and some of the football leaders, we've been praying over that kid for the past three years on the football team. And so for now to see Isaac help lead him to the Lord and then get to step forward and baptize baptize him, Madison. I remember she got baptized, you know, two years ago. And now to see her get to baptize people, you know, Tori and everything that she's been through, Gabe. The first conversation we had about him coming on as middle school guy was last year's D now. And so look what's happened in a full-year rotation of what God's done in his life. So just phenomenal how the Lord has worked.

SPEAKER_01

I will say the number one greatest act of courage and bravery was when Brendan crowdsurfed.

SPEAKER_00

That was insane. You missed it.

SPEAKER_02

It was absolutely I didn't miss it in that hilarious that the moment I stepped into Sunday morning, Johnny Vaughn would, and that's all I want to talk about was when Brendan crowdsurfed before. It was crowdsurfed before. Very strategic.

SPEAKER_00

Did you see the group he jumped on? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and Jesse Rum is right there front and center. Yeah, he was fine. He wasn't overly courageous, but yeah, it still takes that. They still gotta catch him, they gotta understand what he's about to do and not just watch him go thud.

SPEAKER_00

I did hear people are like, you know what, we want to see Roger crowdsurf. Oh, and so uh next year maybe we'll get to see that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, I'm sad I missed Katie Hopkins' call.

SPEAKER_01

There's gonna be some of those seniors that aren't they're seniors that are graduated, so we'll need a new crop of yeah, strong dudes up front to yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Katie Hopkins called me. She was like, I missed her call, and I thought she just butt-dowled me. She's like, No, I was gonna have you come in MC, and I'm like, I'm not cool. I remember when I was in the middle school, I these kids thought I was cool. I don't think this generation of kids think I'm cool. I don't think I'm gonna be.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I got to MC, I just had to lay down all the rules and regulations. And so that's all I did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so you're not cool either. Yeah, but you started off with some Simon Says. Yeah. That got them, you know, energized. Yeah, oh yeah. But high schoolers love Simon Says. They were actually having fun.

SPEAKER_02

We're just not we're not cool anymore. You know, like I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Well, he was up there with Katie doing Simon Says, and Katie's been proud. They were having a great time.

SPEAKER_02

It's a good warm up. But like I just even Sunday morning as I'm looking and I'm like, you know, of course, I see some of my middle schoolers that I uh I bring up Jalen Keller, but like I see them now and they're knocking on the door to adulthood and what what God is doing in their lives. And it just again, just to say I had a role in this. Like, I mean, and and to all of the people at church, like they had a role in some way to be a part of what God is doing in our church. And so for those listening, and you're part of the the team here at Team FBC, we consider you a part of the family, like you have a role in what God is doing. Um, and and like we just need to take a step back and realize how humbling that is of what what what we are experiencing, and it's very vital.

SPEAKER_01

We have to pass this down to the next generation. And man, I think our prospects are looking good for the future with what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00

I feel great. You know, and so our whole saying here is we want to help make heaven crowded. I certainly believe it got a lot more crowded um this weekend. Definitely some seeds planted, if not, and then uh more to come on that. But Jasper did a great job on Sunday. He he talked about, you know, the whole theme this weekend was run your race, and uh he hammered it home on finish your race. Yeah, um, you know, talking about this race of faith, and that finish line is the promised land, which we know is heaven, but he took that back to the Israelites, you know, how they God delivered them out of Egypt out of slavery um to go to this place called the Promised Land. And there was only two people that left Egypt that got to finish the race and actually experienced the promised land. And so he talked about those two people being Caleb and Joshua and the faith that it took for them, you know, to go through the wilderness and finish their race and receive the promised land. So he did a great job on Sunday with that message.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was fantastic. And when he uh in that conversation I was talking to him at the start of D now, I asked him what he was going to preach on for Sunday. Um, I'll be I was a little selfish in asking that because I needed to get small group questions out uh for the adults, but when he dropped the oh, I'm preaching out of numbers 13 and 14, I'm like, I'm sorry about what numbers on Sunday, you pick numbers. You pick numbers, yeah. And I I even joked with him like, whoa, you're going deep in the old testament. Of all the books that everybody quits their reading plan on is Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and he's going right into the belly of the beast. Yeah. But it was excellent because there are parts of those books that back to the they go back to the story. It's not just the begots or the laws or the hey, the the curtain of the temple needs to be this dimension. It's it's a good story, and man, the story of Caleb and Joshua is fantastic. And and even just one of the simple things you were talking about, the wandering the desert. Um, when you go and dig into all that, God literally was so ticked off that he made an entire generation of Israelites die off.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because he was, you're not going then. If you don't trust in me, then you don't get it. Yeah. And only two of you were trusting in me, Joshua and Caleb. Those are the only two that get to go. And the rest of you, I'm waiting until you die off for the next generation to come along, and then they get to experience the promised land.

SPEAKER_00

And the his quote in there that got me was um, you know, Joshua and Caleb, they remembered. They remembered what it was like to be in slavery. They also remembered everything God provided for them while they were in the wilderness. And they said, if God did all of this, we can take down whatever enemy is over here in the promised land, because I'm telling you, that land is flowing with milk and honey. Everybody else, what they chose, they said, Hey, I am more scared of the battle in front of me than what it was like to live in slavery. And they chose the said they wanted the slavery route over the battle that was in front of them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I thought that was a perfect illustration. How many of us choose the slavery of our sin because it's easy, it's comfortable, it's what we know, instead of facing that battle on a daily basis so that we can get to the promised land of the world.

SPEAKER_01

This was this idea of them experiencing God, it's not like, oh, I felt the presence of God. No, they were led out of Egypt by a pillar of fire during the day or at night and smoke the presence of God, and then they watched him part the Red Sea and the entire Egyptian army get swallowed up by it, and they lived and survived and they kept going. These were, I mean, absolutely phenomenal experiences.

SPEAKER_00

They saw manna fall from heaven, they saw water come from a rock, they saw all these things happen, and they're like, Oh, yeah, we don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I don't trust God's gonna stick his, yeah, you know, stick with us. Huh? I it's phenomenal. But don't we do the same? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we do we do the same. But I absolutely love the story of Joshua and Caleb. Caleb is not spoken of as much as he didn't, we don't have a book of Caleb or anything like that, but uh even in the that whole deal that um Jasper was talking about with Caleb, it's this it's a mirror thing with Joshua. I'd say even more so with Joshua. Yeah, he was Moses' assistant. Yeah, and so um when we think of Moses and everything Moses experienced with God on the mountain, going to the tent of meeting, and the presence of God would come down. And uh one of my favorite verses is that Exodus 33, I think it's 11, where it says, The presence of God comes down to the tent of meeting. Moses would leave his tent, and God and Moses would talk to one another like friends. Guess who else is right there in all that? Joshua. He's experiencing because then when Moses leaves the tent, it says, and Joshua stayed. Yeah. You're like, well, if he stayed, that means he was there from the get-go. He was present. When Moses went on top of that, you think his ear was like on the tent? No, he's in there experiencing it right there next to him. You didn't have to eavesdrop. No, and then when every time Moses went up the mountain, and then total was like 70 some odd days worth, Joshua's right there with him. He experienced God like that firsthand. And so it makes sense why from Moses it went to Joshua, yeah. And then you read how Joshua managed the Israelites. Man, he did not mess around.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so the story, you know, God finally sending them in to scout out the promised land, the land of Canaan, and he sends somebody representing each tribe. Yep. Um, the only two to come back and give a positive report was Caleb and Joshua. So they all acted out of faith. Joshua being the assistant to Moses, but then yeah, look at Caleb. And what tribe did he represent? Benjamin, right? Caleb. Or Judah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that is significant as well that he represented the tribe of Judah. He represented his tribe well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and it being the tribe of Judah, because later on, which line would Jesus come from? No coincidences, is it? The tribe of Judah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's all prophetic.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I think in that, you know, for me, I take away, and this is being former youth pastors, is like my message to students every time was like, how are you going to use your experience? It's great having, you know, we use the church term camp high. Like you go to camp, you cry your eyes out, you, you know, say, God, I'm I'm ready to follow you, and then Monday you're back at school, or for adults, even men's and women's conference, you're back at work, and then the mundane tasks. So it slaps you in the face. Yeah, and I think that, you know, we as humans yearn for experience. We all want our own burning bush. And sometimes we get angry or aggravated at God by saying, Well, you did that for Moses, you did that for Joshua, you did that for all of these people that I read about in the story. You just showed up in a way. I mean, even Thomas, you you put your hand out. Why won't you do that for me? That we all yearn for these experiences and to say, Man, if only I had this experience, then I would be ready to go. But throughout scripture, we see people that are having the most supernatural experiences ever. And sometimes, because the way the world works, how they don't utilize that experience. And so or it fades. Yes, or it fades, and they go back to the, like I said, the mundane tasks of life. And so, like, my challenge is um, you know, how how do you use that? How are you able to catapult that? And as you said, eventually to get off the mountain and say, okay, I've had that face-to-face with God, I've had that experience, and now I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna utilize that to hopefully transform in other people's lives what God has transformed in my own life. Yeah, and there's the challenge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's all like I think this is all good segue as we're going in because again, they're running the race to completion to the promised land. You know, for us, we have a place set before us that we're running our race and our finish line. It's also a promised land because he promises us heaven. And so we get a lot of questions about heaven as pastors. Yeah, and you know, we want to make heaven crowded. Um, yeah, we kind of joke around that heaven can't get crowded. Um, but what we're trying to do is we're trying to make the population even higher. Like we're trying to do whatever we can to bring people there. So let's have a discussion on heaven today. Let's talk a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_02

So I actually had had brought this up. So this this past weekend, um, and I shared this on Facebook, it's public at this point, but we got the news that um my dad's cancer. Um, it's gotten to the point now where there's no further treatment that's gonna be able to fight it. It's it's taken over. Um, and so we made the decision with dad that you know, spend the the remaining moments of your life at home, around family, in peace. And so we we drove, it's my stepmom, my sister, my two brothers, myself. We pick dad up, we're driving home, and we have uh an hour theological conversation on heaven. Um, and my dad, of all people, is is you know, everything he's been through, but he's talking about you know what he thinks heaven uh is and what it what it looks like. And then you know, it gets brought up to me. Well, what do I think heaven looks like? And so um that's a question, like as as I'm wrestling everything with with what has gone on with my dad of like, okay, when we die and we go to the other side. And this is a question that uh, you know, as pastors, we get what is heaven gonna be like? And the the interesting part is that Jesus. Yes, he does give some descriptors of what heaven is going to look like, but by and large, we don't see like an exhaustive list of here is the everything that you are going to experience in heaven. And so, again, everything that I went through or that have been going through with our family, um, and just people being interested, it I thought it raised a good question of what is heaven? I mean, we we know it's where we go as as those that are saved, that we go after we die, but what is it gonna look like? What are we gonna experience? One question I had when I was a new Christian is eventually don't you get bored? Just being in like what happens 30 billion years in heaven? Like eventually, like what all is there gonna, you know, what are we gonna do in heaven? What does it consist of? So I think that that leads kind of a good conversation that we can have. Yeah. So Jordan, what do you think heaven's gonna be like?

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's kind of funny because uh, you know, I hear I've heard people say when someone passes away that they will be doing their favorite hobby in heaven. Oh, they're getting to play golf in heaven, and you're just like, no, no, no. There'll be all the all the fried shit, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, he loved ranch dressing, they'll be ranch dressing in heaven. No, that's not how it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And you know, just you were talking about what are you gonna do for 30 billion for literally eternity? You can say 30 billion years and it's a blip on the radar of eternity. Um, what are we gonna be doing this whole time? We're gonna be glorifying God. Yeah. And then so when you just leave it at that, everybody's people could easily just go, that's it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you're like, whoa, what do you mean that's it? Yeah, we're gonna be in the presence of God, yeah, and we're gonna experience, we're gonna get to see his face for the first time. We're gonna experience him and his magnificence and Christ's magnificence with gazillions of other believers in worship. That's gonna be honking big. Yeah, and I don't know if we will like so there were moments uh at D Nile now when we're we're worshiping, and you're just kind I don't know if I know there was times for me, and I'm sure it was for others. You kind of just like, I don't want this to end. This is fantastic. I feel this this is moving, I feel this is amazing. Now take that and amplify it by quadrillion, you know, and what it will be like in heaven. I don't think that'll ever get old.

SPEAKER_02

It reminds me of a conversation after Steven Strauss died, um, who was one of my mentors, and I remember my wife and I, Caitlin, we were driving home from Springfield and we were talking about Steve being in heaven, and she asked me, she said, Do you think Steve is like watching you? I mean, do you think Steve is kind of and I told my response was I think Steve is very preoccupied right now, gazing his eyes at something far greater than me. I think he is so focused on his father and and his savior at the right hand of the father. And and I know I will see Stephen again, but I think right now his focus is not on my mundane tasks of life. I think Steve right now is focused so solely on the father on my father and his father in heaven. And that to me gives me far more comfort to know that one day I will be next to Stephen doing the exact same.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and there that made me think of another question I hear. Do you think we'll know each other? You know, what about your spouse? And I'm literally like, I don't think we'll care. Yeah, exactly. You won't care. It's gonna be so overwhelming. You're gonna be like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. It's amazing. It's very, very true. Well, that's like I mean, we talk about what heaven's gonna be like. What we do know is we're gonna receive a new heaven and a new earth. Yeah, and what many people believe is that new heaven, that new earth that we receive is everything being restored back to the original Garden of Eden. Yeah, it's the new Eden. And so we can what we're implying in there is if we're restoring it back to the Garden of Eden, what was man's role in the Garden of Eden? Um, and I think Adam and Eve, when they were created, what were they created to do? God created them with a purpose, um, worship him to serve, but also for discovery, joy, creativity, like and to reign over the rest of creation. And so I don't think it'll be boring because I just think we'll still have a lot to do.

SPEAKER_02

Like, yes, we're gonna be fully in restored in the presence of the Lord, and um, we're gonna receive new bodies um in which is important because I think there's a misconception even from Christians that we're just gonna be these spiritual orbs almost floating around heaven.

SPEAKER_01

No, we we will receive a glorified body of what we have right now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, I I'll never forget doing the funeral of uh five-year-old Jonathan Rand, who died of cancer, um, and telling his mom, like you you will see your son again, but he will not look like what you see here on earth.

SPEAKER_00

But I think that's important to get into. Why is it important to understand that we will receive new bodies? Why?

SPEAKER_01

Uh because we this body will not work in heaven. It's a sinful flesh. We have to be glorified into the state of what God is.

SPEAKER_02

This body has asthma, this body has, I mean, certain bodies have cancer, certain bodies have disease, and and and that won't exist in heaven.

SPEAKER_00

But why can't we handle the holiness of God? Why can't we just be spiritual beings? Why is it important for God to give us new bodies?

SPEAKER_01

I think there's several reasons. I think it's just about how he created us. We're we are an actual being of, I don't know if it's flesh, but that's just how he made us in our original state. In his image. In his image. With a correctly spirit embodied body, I guess. It's really hard to explain. And that's where it's the glorified version.

SPEAKER_02

So you eliminate the fallenness of what occurred in the way, and now this is what almost what the intention of the creation was before our own flesh and our own sinful temptation took over. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

And so I'd say all that's true, also because we're getting a new new earth. But I also think when Jesus rose from the grave, why did his full body have to rise? Like he his whole his whole body had to rise from the grave.

SPEAKER_02

Because he was fully resurrected to be to overcome death.

SPEAKER_00

Overcome death. And so what he's getting at is Jesus had to do that because Satan doesn't get any victory over any part. And so the same thing, why do we have to our we well, we have a body resurrection, where you we receive new bodies, is because Satan doesn't get to win anything over us either. No part of God's creation does he get to win, including our bodies. And so that's why it's important for us to understand we receive a new body as part of the new creation, because Satan's not gonna win at all. He's not gonna win anything.

SPEAKER_01

But even the glorified state just it goes back to God's original intention of or how he originally intended for humanity to be. It must have been pretty stinking amazing for him to go through and be willing to sacrifice himself like he has for us to get brought back into our original state. The glorified body or this glorified state of humanity must be pretty, really cool. I mean, really awesome. Because I I mean, we look at humanity today, and how many times do we kind of go, really, God? You love us? We're pretty awful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I think it's interesting what you said about, you know, we say, Oh, your favorite hobby is what you'll be doing in heaven. We attach all of these humanesses, and I think Jesus even did this, and this is my belief. Um, I can't give you a chapter and verse, but I believe that when Jesus was giving these understand or these understood uh concepts of mansions, you know, there will be many mansions, and we think of like the the roads for you, roads will be paved of gold. I'm not 100% sure that Jesus is literally saying that there will be these many and stuff like that. I think Jesus is using language that we, in our feeble brains, in our fallen world, that he understands that he is going to describe something that is so exquisite, so beautiful that our brains can understand, but knowing that when we get there, it's actually going to be infinitely greater than even what he described. And so I think that is where Francis Chan gave this analogy in a sermon when he preached on in heaven. He said, look at it this way that we as humanity are a bunch of fleas that have found ourselves in this beautiful mansion that is that is occupied by humans and dogs and all of these things. And we as fleas are trying to understand why the humans do what they do, why the walls are the way they are, who built the walls, how are they built? In the end, we just have to accept the fact that we're just fleas, and we're never going to understand all of that. And I think for us in our flea brains, that we will understand, and I can imagine Jesus just being in a circle and saying, hey, heaven's gonna be great, and I can give you all these descriptors, but you just gotta be there. You just gotta experience it for yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's what like again, going back to the being enslaved in Egypt and not having any freedom. Could they even comprehend the milk and honey that was flowing in the promised land?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So but they defaulted back to what they did know and could possibly even have some control in.

SPEAKER_00

Correct. Yeah. And I think, you know, as we talk about heaven, we like to think of it as just a spiritual place. But it's not just a spiritual place. What we just talked about. It's gonna be a physical place. A literal place. It's a literal physical place. I think the big question becomes comes into we don't have all the answers here, um, but we can talk through it, is that's the end. That's what heaven is gonna be look like one day. But when what does it look like until Jesus comes back? So when somebody passes away, where do they go? Do they immediately go to heaven? Or is there like a holding pattern? What does that look like in that time?

SPEAKER_02

Jordan gave a great this is where uh Pastor Jordan and you talked about Hades and Paradise, and I will say that of all the messages that we preach on, that was the one where people are walking out and thinking, I've been a Christian for 30 years, I had no earthly clue. We all assume that you die and you instantaneously you either wake up in the arms of Jesus or you wake up in hell. But actually the Bible paints uh somewhat of a different picture.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, they're the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, yeah, not the Lazarus that was Jesus' best buddy that raised from the dead, but a very poor and filled with sores, yeah, poor, awful, homeless kind of just someone they literally drag and go sit at the gate of the rich man, hoping that the rich man would give him the scraps off of his table. Um, and Lazarus dies and goes to heaven. Well, then it gives a picture of what is heaven like. He is in the arms of Abraham, it's called paradise. But then the rich man dies and he goes to the other side. They can see each other. There's a great chasm between them, they can even communicate with one another, but one under the other cannot go to the either place. There, there's that much distance, but yet they're able to see and communicate. Um, but then you talk about the Bible talks about how there will be a new heaven and a new earth, or the old earth will be destroyed, and then the the Hades will then be gone, because Hades is one place. Hades has both a good side and a bad side. Uh, and then that'll also be a good thing. So I think that's important to understand.

SPEAKER_00

I think when people hear Hades, they immediately just attribute it to the just hell. Yeah, but Hades would be the location. More just the it's the like a term for afterlife.

SPEAKER_02

In Luke 23, when Jesus says, Today you will be with me in paradise, that we hear paradise and we just assume that's a synonym of heaven. Yeah, these aren't always synonyms that are being used.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so it's it's really one place but two sides. Yeah, I guess would be. And then when Jesus returns, the the earth will be destroyed, heaven will be destroyed, and a new heaven. And I was trying to find in my in Ezekiel, Ezekiel describes the new Eden. Um, where and then Revelation refers to the new Eden as well at the very end. Uh, and Ezekiel, I think he gives a bit of a description of what's this river that's flowing out of the garden. It gives this imagery of the new Eden. Well, that is what God is going to recreate, or they call it the New Jerusalem as well, uh, or the Bible does. And then there is a separation because then the final hell is called Gehenna. It is the final, final place, and it's the like you know, the lake of fire, and there's the gnashing of teeth and torment for eternity, and it's a very different description than where we think we go right after until all that happens. And you know, until you dig into that, there's still, I mean, and I and again, this is another one of those sermons that you preach it and then you have enough several people going, Yeah, are you sure? And you're like, uh, I think I'm sure. That'd have been a good one to have a podcast on after that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we talked about a little bit because we did a podcast on hell, now we're doing a podcast on heaven. So hopefully it's it's it's sprinkled in there. But yeah, I think that's just where people don't know. People don't understand that.

SPEAKER_00

So to sum that up, you know, whenever we pass, instead of being on the streets of gold or whatever, what yeah, we're understanding from that context is we go to a place called Hades, which is like a holding place. There's one side that is paradise that would represent the heaven side. The heaven side. And then we have the other side that would represent the hell side.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and and in there, you know, Lazarus is uh he's hanging out with Abraham. That's who he their perception of understanding of we're gonna go be with our father Abraham. Well, it's Jesus for us now. So but yeah, that's who you're hanging out with, and it's gonna be a great place. Yeah, I mean, I mean well, Jesus wouldn't call it paradise if it was not a cool place, you know. But yeah, sorry, I'm not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00

But so like then the question becomes, as we talked about Catholics, you know, last week or a few weeks ago, would be what's the difference between Hades and Purgatory?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, and I immediately thought of that when you said kind of a temporary place. It's not temporary in the sense of because uh and help me understand purgatory correctly, it's a holding place where you're kind of correcting some bad things. You can get to heaven. You can get to it.

SPEAKER_02

It is it is a a transcendent waiting room almost of saying, okay, I need to get this right, this right, this right. Hades is not a holding place to heaven. Yeah. Your soul has already, I mean, you you've already you have not accepted Christ in your fleshly world, you are now on the other side. Unfortunately, at that point, it it is there is no leaving Hades to get to heaven.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And so then now the real question in is in Hades, the temporary heaven or paradise, are you in a body or is it your spirit? Because we are not reunited with a glorified body yet. Yeah. So then now you could wonder if we are kind of spiritual orbs in this moment. That could be it. And waiting to be reunited, those that have passed are reunited with their glorified body. Yeah. I don't know. We we're not there to know for exactly what we look like in everything.

SPEAKER_02

That there will be certain things from our human b from our human pattern that we will bring there, such as things like, I think we will be conscious, I think that there will there will be certain emotion. So then I'm thinking, well, how do you do that if you don't have all of the pieces that we have here on earth to be able to? I mean, the human conscious comes from the brain. We know that. And so uh if you're just a spiritual orb, you don't have a brain to be able to do that. Now, the of course the the the cop-out answer is, well, God can create whatever he wants. He doesn't need a brain to be able to do that. And it's a different, we're we're no longer in this earth. We are now outside of offering.

SPEAKER_01

But I'd argue your brain doesn't go, your soul goes to heaven. Well, there's no part of your body that doctors can say, well, this is where your soul is. We can remove your soul.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there's no yeah, no, the the yeah, no amount of neuroscience will be able to explain where the soul is.

SPEAKER_01

And now soul and heart a lot of times go together, but but I mean, did your heart go in up to heaven? Exactly, yeah. So that's where there's a bunch of little beating hearts floating around in heaven or again.

SPEAKER_02

And our flea brains, we're trying to explain things using the only thing we know, which is you know, the the natural science, the five senses that we have. And it's like we're we're trying to explain calculus with our times tables that we have. Like, okay, but eight times eight equals 64. Hey, it's much more than what you can calculate.

SPEAKER_01

I never took calculus. So I'm trying to explain calculus, and I never took calculus. And all I know is I I did good on my times tables.

SPEAKER_02

That's great, but we're now dealing with a different language that you're not gonna be able to kind of. I have a little bit of algebra, but even then, I've never zero algebra. Yeah. So that being said, I I think that we can sit here and we can ponder, and it's fun to talk about, but in the end, I think we're all gonna have a little bit of shock when we get and say, Oh, wow, you're right.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and now there is a kind of a cool factor, there are people that have passed away and have ex like um I just told you. Um, and you know, I just was tipped off on a podcast talking to John Bryant, uh D now. He's like, Hey, I'm into this new podcast, you gotta listen to this. It is this guy that has gone around the world and interviewed people that have passed away and experienced something in death, but then were brought back to life. You he and he's what's crazy is he's you know, just a little John could tell me is all these people that are scattered all over the world have never talked to each other, they describe the same thing.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and what's what's interesting about and it's I'm glad you brought up Bethany's story because since I've heard her story and I told her story on a Sunday, every funeral I've done, I tell that that's part of the funeral that I do, and it's helped so many parents and grieving families. But I even told it to my dad on the way back um from St. Louis, and to me, what's so convincing about it, A, is that she describes it as if it happened like it was the she said it was more real than me and you talking right now. And so she said, you can choose not to believe me. Um, but she said, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt what I experienced was heaven. The other part of it is that there were almost prophetic things happening when she was in heaven. Like she didn't know about the the verse of saying like the sun will shine to the right stuff like that. There was stuff happening in her when she was in heaven that can only be explained through something that was supernatural. And so that is where, like I used to be a doubter, like you know, when I would read those books, and I would even even as a Christian, I would tell Christians, hey, be very hesitant. When someone starts talking about those experiences, like you need to go in with some level of skepticism. I think I've kind of dropped that now because I've heard some of the stories of what you know. She said there are colors that exist in heaven. That's right. You can't even there's no words to describe the colors that you will see.

SPEAKER_00

And that's crazy too, is everybody that I know that's had an experience like that, they don't care if people believe them or not. And that's very much Bethany. They they literally don't care. It's it happened. If you don't believe me, yeah, who cares?

SPEAKER_01

But the fascinating thing is that these people have never met, they all give a similar description. Another example that John talked about that he heard was the grass, the rocks, the trees sing yeah the praises of God in heaven. And you're like, he goes, Yeah, as the wind would blow across the grass, it's singing to God and it's praising and glorifying God. You're just like, that'd be cool. The grass is singing, you know. I mean, it's glorifying God. Yeah. You're like, that'd be the wildest thing.

SPEAKER_02

Bethany was ticked off when she woke up and they said, I can only imagine why did you take me off? Because and she said Tell Lazarus felt like oh, yeah. What am I doing? And she said for a split second, she said she did she had no clue where she was at, but she knew everything was going to be okay and that it was all taken care of. And she said it was a piece that transcended reality, is how she described it. And she said, in that moment, I knew where exactly where I was at.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, that was even one of the as John has started listening to this pod. I'm like, how are those people doing now? I mean, because I would venture to say there could be a very high rate of suicide because they want to go back to the city.

SPEAKER_02

Because it's just they yearn because you you you you experience this and you've had a flavor, you've had a taste of the real thing. And I think that that's very intentional on God's part, isn't it? Hey, I'm gonna pull the curtain back just a smidge so that you will truly acknowledge.

SPEAKER_00

No, I'd push back to the other side. I think it does the other. It actually gives them hope. So like it says, oh, now they know. Yeah, they know what the finish line looks like. Yeah. And when you know that what the finish line looks like, it's a little easier to do.

SPEAKER_01

And it could give you a pedal to the metal of I'm gonna get as many people in the middle of experience.

SPEAKER_02

Bethany's response was, I mean, Bethany was not a public speaker. Like I Bethany was one of my best friends before all of this happened. Bethany is the type of person that is not going to stand up and talk in front of people, but instead, what did she do? She goes to our women's conference and she absolutely nailed it just. It was amazing. It was one of the greatest things I've ever seen. She said, like, because I experienced heaven for a split second, I now have a responsibility to tell as many people as I possibly can before I get to go back.

SPEAKER_00

Do you uh have you ever seen John Chris's skit on Lazarus that he's done? No, I've not. It's hilarious. It is. He's like, Can you imagine being Lazarus? He's like, You're up there in heaven and you got swords again. He's like, God's made this many mansions for me. He's out back playing basketball, and then he just hears a knock on the door. It's just an angel saying, uh, sir, we normally don't make this mistake, but uh mistake, but uh he's calling you back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, here's the funny, so like a Bethany, hers was just minutes. Lazarus was four days in heaven.

SPEAKER_00

You know what we don't get after Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave? We don't see the BFFs hanging out anymore after that. He's gonna take off the Jesus. Incredible scary.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that brings up another misconception. We're talking about heaven, because again, I've heard Christians say this before is you know, oh, so-and-so, they passed away, but I know that they're an angel in heaven. You don't become an angel. You are you. Like that is I've made the comment.

SPEAKER_00

If they say that to him, smack them across the face because that's not how it is. Well, God created us above the angels, yeah, right? Yeah, so they're insulting you when they say you were greater than an angel when you get to heaven.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um, you know, there's there is it Isaiah where it talked because you had brought up like, well, I know people in heaven. And I've told people like, we believe marriage till death do us part. I think that there's very strong biblical evidence that you won't be married. Why? Because God gave us marriage for this world, for us to get through this world. We don't need marriage in the next world because it's there's no more fruitful and multiplying. Yeah, it's definitely that was the one uh command in the garden that is not going to apply when we get to heaven. See, but here's my question.

SPEAKER_01

Now, in that sense, we will be like angels because we're not procreating. Be like angels. Because angels don't procreate. Yeah, that's about the only similarity. But other than that, you there is no other.

SPEAKER_00

So this, but this is what it is, because Emily really is my best friend, and you know, in heaven, totally different realm. And we are the bride of Christ, so we're now we're fully united with him. And he Jesus answers this question, like you're talking about heaven or marriage in heaven, what does that even mean? But I am curious because Jesus is very specifically describing once you become married, you are now one flesh.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So how does that look like on the other side? Like, if we are one with each other, yeah, like what does that look like to be united? Because again, the one flesh, the woman was the woman was taken out of the man, yeah, and when they come back, and so she was created, but when they come back together, they are one. And so, like, whenever we go together, are we one?

SPEAKER_02

When we say flesh, when when when God commanded flesh, what's the context of of one flesh there? We're talking about, I take that as saying the the physical bodies that we have now, that is the flesh that becomes one. And of course, he's using flesh figuratively because when we when we say I do. Caitlin and I did not like engulf into each other and become one person. It's the idea that you two will be one, that all decisions, everything that occurs, you do as one. I think it's almost a figurative way of saying that marriage, describing marriage in this world, I don't believe um and there's what would Jesus I I wish I had the verse in front of me, but Jesus makes it very clear. Let me find it real quick.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, when he's talking to uh at the end of his life, when he's talking to them.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, but I want to I want to make sure. Um, is it in Mark? I should know this. Let me give me a second.

SPEAKER_01

Um well while you're looking it up, I want to highlight what uh Lucas is talking about.

SPEAKER_02

It's Matthew 19.

SPEAKER_01

That uh we the you know we are one flesh, and that the woman is of we are all created of the same you know the Old Testament in the creation story tells about Eve being made, we always think of it from a rib. Yeah. Um and so I'm gonna give uh good friend Dana Evans a shout out. She sent me this in that the Hebrew does not typically mean rib, it means a side, a flank, a half, or structural side of a building or sacred object. Um, and the same word that is used for that we translate to rib is also used for the Ark of the Covenant, the Tabernacle, and uh a mountain. And so it's not a small bone, it is a complete half portion of a man. So uh removing like a God did not remove a rib like a surgeon. It described God taking a side of the human. Um, let's see here. God divided the primordial human into two equal halves, and so that better fits the whole no, you know, human, not male, humanity as being one first. He didn't so it was just it's fascinating that we think that women was just made from a rib. And no, he literally split man in half and created two very like beings. Yes, and that's how much similar we are.

SPEAKER_02

I've been looking for that. So you're right, Matthew 22. Um, and this goes back to the whole angels thing. For in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage. So he outright says it, but are like angels in heaven, like angels in heaven. So he's using a simile. He's not speaking literally when it comes to the angels in heaven, but he's not using a simile, he's not being analogous when he says, for in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage.

SPEAKER_01

So that's just the only comparison that I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I agree that the marriage covenant, it's fulfilled by the time we get to heaven. And our primary, our deepest relationship, the only one that we will have uh on that level is our union with Christ. But it does make me wonder if we are back to one.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, once again, those are the questions we don't have the I don't the back of the thing.

SPEAKER_02

But I think the role of marriage in this world, in our world, again, flea brains, what we need uh in in on this side of heaven. I I don't know if obsolete is the right word. I don't think it's gonna be necessary.

SPEAKER_00

I do that, I do think we'll recognize people though. Because I mean you look at the transfiguration. I do, but that's that Joshua? You look at the transfiguration, and there's definitely some recognition, recognition they can recognize things.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. I and I'm going to your whole marriage thing. I think it's a reflection of God's relationship with his people. It's marriage is another reflection of Christ in the church. Um, and because he talks about how Israel is adulterous and how they have gone against him and they've cheated on him. He talks about that kind of a cheating type language that they've gone to follow other gods and they're adulterous in doing that. I think the marriage is it's a reflection of God's covenant with humanity, and then is then passed down to us and our relationships with one another, and then is again a reflection of Christ and the church. So whether that then carries on, I don't know, but it's definitely a reflection of the city.

SPEAKER_02

Taking it back to plain covenant. Our good buddy uh Pastor Larry over at Lebanon Family. I remember he preached on this passage, it's probably been three years ago. The only reason I remember it is I remember Lebanon Family's comment section was exploding because people were upset at what he said. I listened to the message, I actually don't disagree with what he said. Um, and again, shout out to Larry and Lebanon Family. We love them. But Isaiah 65, 17, talking about the new heaven and new earth. Uh see, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. And so that is that is that is the the you know, verb where people say, Well, okay, former things, because I've even asked, like, you know, I had another best friend that passed away. I'm I don't think he was saved. Let's assume he wasn't saved. Will I remember him when I get to heaven? Because that's a question I've gotten before. I have a loved one that died. I can't imagine heaven being perfect if I don't have this person in my life. Like, even a child that I know was not saved and they died. How can I why would I want to go to heaven knowing that my child is not there? And I think that that speaks to, well, the things that that may harbor sadness or disdain or anger towards God, why wouldn't you allow my child or my spouse to be here who was unsaved? Um, that there are certain things in this world that will not be remembered when we get to heaven for reasons that we may not know. So the whole the whole sermon that Larry preached on was the idea of yes, there will be people, there will be loved ones that you will have no recollection of in heaven. And of course, people got fired up and said, Well, how in the world could that could that be the case? So it's just interesting to think about that.

SPEAKER_01

That's fascinating, but look how why do we have memorials? Why do we have special days for holidays to remember, to force us to remember we don't because how often how many times is someone's passed away and they are forgotten about? Because we just keep moving forward in a direction of the down the line. And it's like history. If you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it. So you need to remember history. How much, I mean, that's just a very common thing here today, even as we live. We we have to have memorials and we have to have special days to go. And Jesus even said, do this in remembrance of me, because you're gonna forget if you don't, you know.

SPEAKER_02

So the idea is that it would only make sense that there are certain things that will that you will not remember. And again, flea brain, well, that I can't imagine. I can't imagine. You're right. You can't imagine.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you can't. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, you know, we talked about Hades, the holding place. Um, you know, that's why in in when Paul writes to the church of Thessalonica in First Thessalonians, um, you know, when talk about the dead will rise, and we always go to this verse when we talk about the rapture. They thought they missed it. Yeah. We got 1 Thessalonians 4, 16 through 17. It says, For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the dead of Christ will rise first. So the dead in Christ. And so talking about that place of Hades, the first people that will rise are those who have passed before them as Christians. And it's like almost like from oldest to newer believers. And then it says, after all the dead in Christ will rise, that's when he will then what? Come, and those who are left, they will be those that are still alive, they will then be called.

SPEAKER_02

It's just so incomprehensible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, it really is. If you are alive, when Jesus returns, guess what you're going to watch? A bunch of dead people come in like thrills.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, wild. The human brain can only do so much to imagine what that's gonna be like.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that even happened when Jesus uh arose from the dead. There were other dead people that came to life, people that they knew and were renowned people. It's a part of Matthew. You're just like, what?

SPEAKER_02

It's a part of the resurrection story. Nobody knows. Always skip past the fact that there were other graves that were open. We always skip past that. But it is a fascinating detail of the resurrection story.

SPEAKER_01

And it sounds like it's in the context of when he dies on the cross, the graves were open, but it's I mean, Matthew's kind of lumping a lot of things together there. But could you imagine? You're like, whoa, hold on. What are you doing? Yeah. Can you imagine how freaked out people had to be when they came out? Yeah. Just a glimpse of life. Just a glimpse of what's going on. Now imagine that on a massive scale of everyone that has died up until the point that Jesus comes back. I mean, how many millions, billions of people that do you think atheism will exist when that happens?

SPEAKER_02

Checkmate. It's too late. Yeah. There will be no atheists at that point.

SPEAKER_01

That is going to be the wildest. I mean, I don't even know how many people have died in history. I don't know. It's got to be billions. But then some people say there's more people alive than have ever died.

SPEAKER_02

So I think going depending on, I mean, yeah, that would be interesting to see, but we are we're talking a number that is incomprehensible that is going to be right there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Unbelievable. So a couple questions. I know we've got to wrap this thing up that people have. You know, who gets to go to heaven? You know, for us, it's anybody who calls upon the name of Jesus that believes that he is Lord, um, they get to go to heaven. But I think it does bring up a question. Um, you know, this one kind of hits home for a lot of people. You know, my mom um she had a miscarriage, and you know, 20% of all pregnancies they end either either you know where that that baby is lost. You know, 20%. That's a significant number. So what about those um that lose a child? Um where where those um babies go, or um kids that maybe pass away before they can even talk or understand or know those things. Uh what do we believe about that? Do they do they get to go to heaven?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I believe they do. Um I you know, we were talking earlier about this age of accountability, and there's kind of this sweet area of a child that children are very I mean, even though you know little kids do things wrong, but there's a point in our lives where we grow up and we have the ability to truly know what we are choosing. And uh and that and what I mean by that is are we going to choose Christ or are we going to choose this world?

SPEAKER_00

And by age of accountability, you're not saying there's like an eight, nine, like there's not like twelve years old. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

I don't even use the word age of accountability. I use the word intellect accountability because there's no specific you're at the age of twelve, you should know. But I would even say people that have severe developmental or mental retardation, stuff like that, that could live to be fifty but have the mind of of a one or two year old, yeah, they're going to heaven, I believe. And so how do we know that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, and that's just it. We don't know, but it's I think I'd have to go do some more digging to find out where Jesus may have said something.

SPEAKER_02

But Well, David in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_01

I'll have to admit that.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, he's his son went to the son, and he talks about his son being being in heaven, and his son certainly would have been under the age of what we would call an accountability, did not have the intellect to make a decision. To make a decision, but David affirms that he is in heaven. And so that to me would be actually pretty concrete proof biblically, yeah. Um, unless David was just outright wrong that um his his son was in heaven, even though he did not make a decision.

SPEAKER_00

And then I think, you know, obviously you can go into Jeremiah 1. It says before uh you were in the woman. 15, yeah. Yeah. In your mother's womb, I knew you. Um, and then you know, I think one of the strongest examples we give is John the Baptist, you know, as when leaping in the womb.

SPEAKER_02

So we see humanity and when Jesus, when Elizabeth and Mary leaping for joy, but we already see John having the Holy Spirit, you know, in that moment.

SPEAKER_00

It says that he had the Spirit and he leaped in that moment. And so I think all of that shows the evidence of and we know God's character and his heart for children, and that he's a God of love. I think when you tie all those things together, I think you can almost say for sure, yeah, they're going to heaven.

SPEAKER_02

And I we I talked about this in my apologetics class. Um, do we believe that life begins at conception? Yes. Scientifically and theologically, we do. So we believe that in conception, so even an early miscarriage, um, we believe that a conceived, we use the word fetus or emperor, but that is a human being. Correct. Um, do all humans spend eternity somewhere? Yes or no? Yes. Therefore, that's a deductive argument to say that even those who miscarry, and we've walked with with many women who have miscarried in our church, and the one hope I have for them is that, yeah, you may not have known personally that baby that was living inside of you. Maybe you've you named him or her already, but the fact is is that you will be united with your child, whether it be a child that died in the womb or out of the womb. Um, we have that assurance. We have that hope. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00

And I heard a pastor say this once, um, because it's not just ones that are miscarried. Um, it's ones that are aborted. And I heard this pastor say, I have a I have a picture of heaven being full of babies that were aborted that God adopted.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. I believe that without a shadow of a doubt.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we were talking about earlier with uh regards to people that have experienced another side because they died and then came back to life. Uh it's a very famous book, is Heaven for Real. That's one of them. You know, there's some people that discount that book and the story of that. Is that the pastor? Or no, it's the pastor's son. Yeah, yeah, okay. That died on the operating table with a um what uh your appendix had burst. Um anyways, um he the little boy describes to his parents, he says, Oh, I saw my sister, and this was her name. He knew who she was, and the dad and the mom had never told him about uh a miscarriage that they had had prior to him coming to life, uh, them having him, and he told about how he saw her. Yeah, and they were just like and then he also talked about how many babies there were, yeah. And it's it's kind of fascinating. Now, is that real? I don't know. It's an experience that somebody had of heaven, yeah, and then explain those things, and it's kind of a comforting thing to be like, okay, um what this kid was telling, the way the book lays out is like there's no way he would have known, even saw his uncle and never met his uncle.

SPEAKER_02

And on that, and this is the last story I share on this. Um, but I I've shared this before. The checkmate for me when I was an atheist is I had I was speaking with a local pastor, um, and I asked him all my questions of why God did not exist, why atheism was true. I mean, I question after another, you know, and he's responding the best he can. And then I asked him, I said, Do you have any questions for me? And he said, I only have one question for you. He said, Um, and he shared a story, there was a family um that had a a late miscarriage, and he said that he goes into the the hospital room, he said, you know, mom is sobbing, dad is crying, he knows that they're believers. He said that the only thing he could tell them was that that child that died in your womb, you will see them again, you will be united, you will all of those things. And he said it gave them hope. He said, Now, Roger, you're now in my shoes, you're the one in the hospital room. What answer do you give them? And that's the one thing that stumped me. What hope do you give them? And my answer was, I guess I just tell them that's that, right? And so this I cruel though, right? And that was it. Like it's just that was my worldview of like, there's nothing you can, it's nihilism. We're here and then we're not. And the idea that in that pastor talking to me, who was as hardened of an atheist as I could have been, but the idea that we have the hope that he could tell that family that was distraught, because anybody that's been through a miscarriage, you grieve that loss as if it is your child, because it is your child. Scientifically and theologically, you have lost your child. And the hope you can give them is at an eternity that is so great that the word miscarriage won't even exist. It won't even be comprehensive. And that actually for me was one of the things that made me stop and say, Man, where is my hope?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, I've talked to a mom who had a miscarriage, and she said, you know, eventually I found my hope in Christ and my trust in him. And what helped me get through that was knowing that my child never had to experience the hopelessness of this world. Yeah, never had to experience the easeless of this world. And I said, Man, what a perspective.

SPEAKER_01

That is a perspective, and we kind of forget and we look at the bad side. That person or that child didn't get to experience life, and you're kind of like, eh, they're lucky.

SPEAKER_02

And what a God in his divine foreknowledge, knowing every road that's going to be that could have looked down and seen a potential path that was going to happen and said, you know what, I you're you're you're you're closer to heaven than you think. I'm gonna go ahead, you know, just in that idea of like, oh yeah, God's in control. God knows the beginning, middle, and end. And he's gonna do everything he can to make sure and save that life and preserve that life and and and have that life in his presence.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I remember driving to the hospital after someone lost their child in a car accident. And I remember we were praying. We didn't know at the time they were, I mean, they're in the hospital in uh intensive care, not knowing if they were still alive or not. And we were praying, obviously, that they stay alive. And then after we prayed, I literally, and this was riding up there with Pastor Matt, I said, Is that selfish to pray that they don't they stay here and not get to go to heaven? And in my mind, I'm just like, whoa, where did that come from? And how crazy of a thought is that? Yeah, it was almost like we were selfishly asking someone to stay in this crappy world when they have an opportunity to go be with you.

SPEAKER_02

And what I tell grieving families all the time is some people are just more ready for heaven than others. And I think that God can see in and say, Hey, it's your time. It's your time. You've done what I've asked, and we see it as a punishment. Why would God allow it? But on the other side, we're gonna look back and think, man, what a reward. What a reward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. It's weird for us to comprehend here on this side. There's so much that we just don't get exactly. Well, there you go. I think that's it.

SPEAKER_00

It's a good one hour. Yeah, I know. Heaven, heaven's so important to us, obviously, like it's our purpose. It's like that's where we're going. And then how many people can we bring with us?

SPEAKER_01

That's right. And so uh Jesus is saying, that's why we say make heaven crowded. Yeah, and Jesus wants as many people there as possible. That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, he loves us that much. Absolutely. Yeah, he grieves when those those with the freedom to choose do not choose him, but he's a loving God, and the definition of love is it must be freely given. That he wants us to love him freely on our own accord, and he rewards us plentifully when we give him our love.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

It's good stuff. Yep.

SPEAKER_00

All right, all righty.

SPEAKER_02

Well, hey, loved it. Great episode. I think that's really I think we covered a lot about heaven, and I think that that can be a resource we can send to people. So uh thank you so much for tuning in. Um, and we will see you on Sunday. We're gonna continue in our sermon series of Rediscovering Jesus. We're also here on Wednesday, um, our apologetics class that I'm hosting. Jordan's got a class, we've got Rob's Bible class, we've got a women's class, we've got students, we've got children's, we've got all kinds of stuff on Wednesday night. Um, so we hope to see you then. But if not, we will catch you next week. Same time, same location for Make Heaven Crowded.