Make Heaven Crowded

Lukes Jesus & James Talarico | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 24

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we dive into a powerful and timely conversation: Luke’s portrayal of Jesus and the rising voice of James Talarico.

The Gospel of Luke presents a deeply compassionate, justice-driven, and people-focused Jesus — one who consistently moves toward the outcast, challenges religious hypocrisy, and calls for a radical reordering of our priorities. At the same time, voices like James Talarico are gaining attention for speaking about faith, politics, and the teachings of Jesus in today’s cultural moment.

We explore questions like:

• What makes Luke’s account of Jesus unique compared to the other Gospels?
• How does Jesus’ heart for the poor, marginalized, and outsider shape our faith today?
• Where do modern voices align — or misalign — with the full teaching of Jesus?
• How do we faithfully navigate the intersection of faith, culture, and politics?

This episode isn’t about choosing sides — it’s about seeking clarity. What does Jesus actually teach, and how do we live that out in a world full of noise?

Because if we’re serious about following Jesus, we have to be serious about understanding Him rightly.

🎙️ Series: Make Heaven Crowded Podcast
📖 Topics: Gospel of Luke, Justice, Culture, Faith & Politics
🌐 Learn more at: teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. I am Pastor Jordan, joined with Pastor Roger and Luke, the pastor, not the doctor. There we go. But you spoke about the doctor on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02

So Luke Luke the pastor, not the doctor, and Roger the pastor and the doctor. Thank you so much. Very good.

SPEAKER_00

Well, there is a married to a doctor. Mrs. Dr. Luke Winfrey. Yeah. And because we are one flesh, so technically I am a doctor. Look at that. Beautiful. How about that?

SPEAKER_02

Well, uh, we continued with uh read discovering Jesus. That's right. And uh you got to speaking of Luke, got to cover the gospel of Luke, which is a great gospel, so much there. And uh you you did a little bit of jumping. I know you started in Colossians, and then you you I think you did a good job going from kind of the early parts of Luke and then closing with uh the the resurrection, obviously, or the crucifixion into the resurrection. So um obviously we use this podcast as kind of a director's cut of anything that you didn't uh get to include, anything that you could think of.

SPEAKER_00

But let's talk about something I included, which was your guys's.

SPEAKER_01

The play on your name, Luke, and the doctor, and then you created your own Chat GPT Jesus, your own chat GPT Jesus version of Jesus based on who your Jesus would be.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Okay. Hey, I think chat is a incredible tool if you use it for the right things. And so, like, I've used my chat to help me uh outline hunting stuff um for workout stuff, I've never track food and different things like that. And so I was very curious as we're going in through like who does Luke say that I am. I'm like, I wonder what chat, what picture it'd give me of like my Luke, like who my Jesus would be. So I literally just said, Chat, you know me well enough, give me a picture of uh who do you think my Jesus would be?

SPEAKER_02

I'm asking because I've never done this, I don't use it as much as you do. Um but uh I so I just literally typed in based off of how much you know me, what do you think my Jesus looks like? So let's see. This is this is fresh.

SPEAKER_00

What if it spits out the exact footage? It's just balding. Well, like because here's the funny part. I did mine and I was dying laughing. Then I started thinking about you guys. So I typed in and uh described Jordan and what that would look like, and it spit out that, and then I typed it in and put information about you, and that's what it spit out, and I was dying.

SPEAKER_01

What fascinates me is it chooses to pick uh things about us that is our Jesus. But Chat GPT clearly doesn't know me. He doesn't he just picks a typical look of Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's just it's like the typical Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

But that kind of reinforces my point. It's like, why does my Jesus have to like the Steelers and old cars and because that's what I described about whatever flag property in the background.

SPEAKER_00

I said I said, Pastor Jordan is our missions pastor. We go to mission trips on Panama every year. He is bald, he has a goatee. Uh he used to work at Coleman and So like I likes old cars. And that's what it's called. And then they threw in a Vespa. But I will say that's a Falcon.

SPEAKER_02

Clearly, I'm a Falcon fan, I've got logos all over me. Like, I love the Falcons, unfortunately, but I know Jesus hates the Falcons because if Jesus loved the Falcons, we would have some level of success and we wouldn't be banking our hopes on Tua to Miola.

SPEAKER_00

Blessed are the persecuted.

SPEAKER_02

Well, we are saying he's like, Alright, I'm a Falcon fan, and I'm gonna make Tua Browns. We're gonna sign Tua as our quarterback. And Tuba we trust. Very good. Oh my god. So that was good. That was hilarious. Yeah, that was good laughter from the crowd. And uh yeah, I thought it was it was a good way to get him going and then going into the actual screen.

SPEAKER_01

Yours looked like you were like in this uh Nirvana of nasal spots.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, dude, you know, so like yours actually it had just had you hold it, had you holding the Bible on one hand and with a ranch on top of the Bible on the original one, and then the nasal spray like this, kind of like how you always walk around with your hands like this. I don't know. Kind of how you had the picture. The one thing I And then I said, no, I want him taking a hit of the nasal spray. So yours did have a second adjustment, but that was literally. But you told the whole congregation I'm addicted to nasal spray.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think I'm addicted to nasal spray. I don't think that's accurate. So I don't think my Jesus would be addicted to nasal spray. If you're not addicted to nasal spray, I'm not addicted to color. So um it was good. No, I I I thought it was funny. And everyone loved it. And what what I felt honored is uh second service when you're like, and then for the third path, and everyone you like it was like whistling like because people were just on the edge of their seat. They knew it was gonna be good, and uh it did not disappoint. No, it did not.

SPEAKER_00

No, it would get but it all it all kind of did play into the series. You know, Matthew 16 were asking that question of uh who do you say that I am? What the question Jesus is asking. So it was kind of fun to like to take the things that we love and we enjoy and how that would play out if that was how we formed Jesus in our mind. Um but that's what the part that we're kind of trying to we're trying to break down, yeah. So we can get an accurate picture of who Jesus is. And I thought Luke, um, him being a doctor, lays it out in such a beautiful way throughout his gospel. And when you know the things about his history, so you said I started in Colossians, I did that for a reason. My home text was Luke chapter six. But I think in order to understand as we are going through this why Luke depicted Jesus the way he did, you have to understand about the author. So when you understand his history and where he came from and who he traveled with, you're gonna understand why he portrays Jesus the way he portrays Jesus and tells the stories that he tells. And so it kind of puts more weight behind, and you see it clearly better um when you understand what he's been through. So we started in Colossians because that's actually the first mention of Luke that we have in our New Testament. Um, and that's when Paul is laying out for that church um the different people that are traveling with him, things that are going on. And um, many scholars believe, like even through that, uh, we learn number one that he's a doctor, um, which is important to understand when we're he's writing his gospel in the book of Acts, because it is a very detailed account. Um, and it is him gathering these information as he says in the beginning of Luke, you know, verses one through four, hey, Theophilus, I'm gathering to you all the information that I could find about Jesus, whether it is the writings that we've had um or oral teachings. And so he is collecting all this together to basically present it in a very detailed format.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's not like you don't today, but doctors are thought of as very trustworthy individuals. I would say even especially more then maybe than now. Yeah, that if if if a doctor is writing these things, not only is it going to be thorough, but you can trust what he's writing and that it's going to be truly the facts.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and many scholars take, you know, from his writings, um, and how he explains uh goes into more detail about Jewish tradition um and different things like that, that he was probably uh a Gentile. Because he's not writing under the assumption that people already know what these these are. Yeah. And a lot of the stories he tells emphasizes Gentiles and outsiders. And then in that group of text right there in Colossians, uh verses 10 through 14 and chapter 4 there, Paul lays out the Jewish people that are with him, but he puts Luke in a different group. And so many scholars will take that to believe, hey, Luke is a Gentile, um, and that's why he's writing from the perspective that he's writing. And then it becomes even more clear because we also know Luke was a traveled companion of Paul, and he starts using um first person, we, um, in chapter 16 on Paul's second missionary journey, whenever he joins him. And so Paul, who was a missionary for the Gentiles, is now linked up with a very smart Gentile as they go and reach people together. And so I think it is important to understand those things because those big things right there about Luke and his life and who he followed, they heavily influenced how he wrote his gospel and why he wrote his gospel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and he was a doctor, he was probably wealthy, and it appears that he completely walked away from the practice because he went everywhere with Paul. And I was even trying to think, where was it because I even tried to dig in, where would Luke have been from? Where did Paul kind of pick him up? Troaz. Tro you call it Troaz? Troaz? No, that wasn't it. I always call it Trous. What is it? Troaz. Troaz? You just made that up now.

SPEAKER_02

Troaz is what I've always called it. Troaz.

SPEAKER_01

Because I was thinking Boaz from Ruth, and I just it's I pronounce all of those things wrong. Yeah, I promise you. Yeah. It's in the names, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

See what I what I've learned, this is Luke doesn't do this. Luke lets everyone know he can't pronounce it because he just stumbles on it. If you read it confidently, everyone's like, oh, okay. Like it must be right because he didn't like it.

SPEAKER_00

But you know why I do that? Because it makes people feel like, oh, if he can't do it, then it's okay. I can't believe this pastor's so humble.

SPEAKER_02

Now I'm gonna go home and read my Bible and take my vitamins. Yeah, that's exactly why you do it. You do it because you can't pronounce it, which is okay because the Bible's got a lot of big words. You don't take vitamins? I take vitamin uh what's orange juice? C. I take vitamin C. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Like actually vitamin C, or do you just?

SPEAKER_02

I'm drinking uh any means orange energy. Yeah, it's got uh anyways. No, I Troas I think is correct.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I prefer trousers.

SPEAKER_00

That's where we put it. And the second ministry. That's way hard.

SPEAKER_01

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00

Huh? Okay, go ahead.

unknown

Mr.

SPEAKER_00

Trouss.

SPEAKER_01

That's it. I got trous. That's it.

SPEAKER_00

But it does it, it makes you think. So Luke being a doctor, how many times do you see Paul, like the Lord used Paul to heal somebody? Can you imagine? Can you imagine like Luke being there for that to take place and him being like medically holy cow?

SPEAKER_01

He could have sat there and said, Well, we didn't learn this in med school, you know, whatever that would have been back then. Dirty handkerchiefs are uh healing people and casting down demons. We didn't learn that in medical school.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. So, like how when he says that is a miracle, it brings more weight and like validity to yeah, that was a miracle. Just like when you you how many emergency room doctors you talk to, and things will take place there, and they have no other explanation of that's a miracle.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the term medical miracle is even used in a naturalistic sense. I mean, you will hear non-believers say, Well, it's a medical miracle. Like we that's almost a normal term. And for us, we just take the word medical off and say, No, that's that's just a miracle.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and uh but they do a lot of doctors stop short of I was healed by Jesus or the power of the Holy Spirit, and they're like, There's actually a reason.

SPEAKER_02

I've actually read an article, there's a reason why um emergency room doctors are extremely not necessarily just Christian, but are it very, very religious, even though they're more educated, because typically in America, more education means less theology, like less religion, right? I mean, you hear about people that have degrees and you know they're scientists are atheistic, they don't believe in God. But doctors are actually where that completely takes a sharp left turn because doctors are by and large religious, they are devout. Um, you know, and like I just I love Dr. Quals, who goes to church here, is one of our elders, used to be one of our elders, um, and just hearing him talk about moments of practice and saying the only way this is possible is is divine intervention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So with that in context, when as Luke is sharing these stories, and when so when he talks about those miracles and people being healed, I mean that's a big deal. Yeah, it's a huge deal. And so, you know, he as he goes through his story and the gospel and everything we know about him, his gospel is totally about Jesus flipping the world upside down. And um he is trying to make it clear to his audience Jesus came for people like you and me who are gentiles, who we were never allowed in the temple, we were never allowed to have access to God, we were never allowed to have a relationship with him. Hey, now we are. And so he came for the poor, he came uh for those who are Gentiles, he came for the tax collector, he came to flip this world upside down, and everything this world has said that should bring you honor, that should bring you a blessing. No, he's actually flipping that somebody saying, No, he is the one who gets to declare who is blessed.

SPEAKER_02

See, I was waiting for you to connect John, because you you talked about John, and it's the same concept. Of course, I always go back to John 4, the woman at the well. It is it's the exact same premise of the idea that who is he gonna have this conversation with? I'm gonna choose you of all people, and you connect that to Luke, and we're and you see that yes, we're using terms like John's Jesus, Luke's Jesus, Mark's Jesus, but in the end, the conclusion is it's Jesus. Same Jesus. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, they're just having to pick up the correct one, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

But and that's what you know I thought was cool as we jump into the text where I landed, was Luke 6. And so, you know, Luke's gospel, the way he outlines it, he starts off with the birth narrative of Jesus, but he takes it back and gives us um again Mary's perspective, which women were not highly favored in the first century. And so for him to focus on Mary's perspective of it all, that was also very significant. You know, Matthew, in which he probably already had Matthew's account whenever he was writing this, focused on Joseph's side of the story, and so he gives us a different part of the Christmas story. Um regards to the genealogy, not not just genealogy, but some people claim that that's not the Mary's genealogy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but Matthew, but Matthew doesn't just focus on Joseph's genealogy, he focuses on Joseph's story and how he came to find out find out that um yeah, it's clear there's a there's a there's a a slant on on both Matthew is more on John or Joseph and then Luke is more on probably the Mary uh side of it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and then uh yeah he focuses on Mary, but even if you're talking about genealogy, the way they frame their genealogies is totally different because in yeah, Luke's different names, but even in Luke's genealogy, he starts out with Joseph and then works backwards all the way to Adam, where Matthew starts with Abraham and then works to Jesus. So even how they approach their genealogies, they they flipped them in that. So um he starts there again, taking all the way back to Adam, but then you know how he frames his gospels, the story he tell tells, is more Gentile focused, is more towards the outsider, even though other gospels will mention these as well. But when it gets to Luke 9, I think verse 51, there's a shift that takes place. It's it's a hinge point, it's a turning point in the Bible, but in Luke's gospel specifically, and it says Jesus turns his face towards Jerusalem. And in that moment, he starts making his journey to Jerusalem for one last time. And so Luke's gospel, all the way from um chapter 9, all the way till what is there, 28 chapters in Luke, all the way through it, that he is Jesus is heading to Jerusalem, and so it it takes up the last few months of Jesus' life. That was dumb. It's not 28 chapters. I was about to say, no, you're thinking of Matthew, there's 24 chapters. 24, yeah, 24. Um, yeah. So but I I think 24 is not much different. 16 and Mark, 21 and John. Yeah. Yeah. So so but where I was at in uh chapter 6, and this was a cool part because right there in verse 20 where we start, it says, looking at his disciples, and I I talked about this a little bit on Sunday, that looking at his disciples part, whenever we hear that, a lot of us typically just go towards the 12. But what Luke does different than the other gospels is he clarifies right ahead in verses 12 through 16 who his apostles are and who his disciples are. And so it actually in Luke's account of calling the apostles or the disciples, he comes down off the mount from praying praying, and it says, out of his disciples, he chose 12 of them to be his apostles. And then he gives us the list of the twelve.

SPEAKER_02

Because we see, and that goes back to Mark, where we see the general disciple, yeah, right, where he says, You want to be my disciple, this is what you do. So there's clearly a distinguishing between we are all disciples, yeah, but then there is the kind of the disciples with a capital D, which would be the apostles. That's right.

SPEAKER_00

And that's where like now then Luke will go into what we call the Sermon on the Plain, which is very similar to the Sermon on the Mount, very smaller, but very similar to the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount. The difference is on the Sermon on the Mount, we know that there's a lot of different people present, a wide variety of group in the crowd. Um, and then but in Luke's version of Sermon on the Plane, instead of standing on the mountain, he's standing in the plane, and he is talking specifically to his disciples, not just the twelve, but everybody that has been following him up to that point during that time. And then he goes into the busings. Yeah. Did you have something to say? I was like, you're gonna have something to say.

SPEAKER_02

Just a cool tidbit, because we talk about this all the time. I uh I left first service a little bit early because I wanted to check in on growth track. I don't get to do that as much. And uh that was not growth track. I'm sorry. Everyone does that, and I'm I'm the worst at it. Fresh start. Uh and of course made a little cameo appearance. People in people in Fresh Start don't know what you're preaching on because they haven't been there yet. And uh they were talking uh Beatitudes and Sermon them out. And so same same concept, blessed. Um, you know, blessed are the poor in spirit, same concept. Here's the weird thing that happens almost all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, what we're discussing in Fresh Start is typically what ends up getting preached on stage. And there's no planning. We don't know. Zero planning or coordination of that at all. It's wild.

SPEAKER_02

But it just I I think it's good as people understand, like, why did Jesus have to repeat himself? Well, Jesus probably repeated himself. We do not have an exhaustive day-by-day itinerary, as cool as that would be to find out what did Jesus do the Tuesday on this day. Um, but the idea being is that he was speaking to new ears everywhere he went. And um the truth stayed the same, the gospel remained the same. And so he's probably sharing this day after day after day, and the disciples are probably kind of like you talked about your grandma at the circuit, like, okay, now he's gonna go into this part, now he's gonna go into this part. But Jesus was very, I mean, we scholars say that this was probably repeated time after time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that's what and he's giving this to just his disciples in this one. Um, and so you see him, it's a little bit different in how he even phrases it. And um in in Luke's version, and so we talked about how in the Beatitudes of Matthew, he says, Blessed are the poor in spirit. Here he just says, Blessed are you who are poor. Yeah. Um, and there's other differences, we won't go through them all. Um, but he gives out in Luke's version four blessings and four woes. And the four blessings and the four woes, they contradict each other, right? And so you have the blessed are the poor, woe to the rich. Blessed are you who are hungry, woe to those who are well fed now. Blessed are you who weep now, woe to you who laugh now. Uh blessed are the people who hate you, um, for uh and exclude you, and insult you, and reject you, and your name is evil because of the Son of Man. Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, right? And so the four blessings contradict the four woes that that he is giving there.

SPEAKER_01

And you're sure the Pharisees weren't present at that? See, I thought those woes were directed at the Pharisees that were standing there. Yeah, whatever, and I have I wanted to go back and research to, but just from my memory, those woes were directed at the Pharisees. They were 100%.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, and that's right, yeah. Maybe I was a little because he says he went down to them and stood on a little place. A large crowd of his disciples um were there, and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem. So it was it was a mixture. When you get into the verse 20, he says, looking at his disciples. So the other ones probably heard him, but he was directing this conversation to his disciples, like he was just talking to his group of disciples that already follow him, everybody else kind of maybe over here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he's looking at his disciples and saying, Well, and that's where a lot of times they thought people think that although we have claimed that the parables were ways to speak biblical truth in a way that people would understand, there's a lot of people that think Jesus was speaking in code to his disciples with his parables.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's where, like, even in Mark, and this is what I hammered on, is like he told his disciples, hey, there's a crowd over there. I let blend in. Like, because what I'm gonna tell you guys, yes, I'm speaking to you, but I want to make sure they all hear what I have to say.

SPEAKER_01

He's speaking to his disciples, talking about the people are standing right there, rubbing elbows. And sometimes they had to be like, right there. Woe was woe is me, woe is him. Yeah. You're saying this about there, and they're right there.

SPEAKER_00

And how encouraging is that to his disciples, though, with them present, him openly saying, like, hey, I know you guys are poor, you guys are blessed, but woe to those who are rich. And he's saying that with them standing right there. And you have to think they're kind of like looking out of the corner of their heart, like, holy cow. But again, I think of I wonder what their face is.

SPEAKER_02

But I think of Paul, who as a Pharisee was probably very wealthy, he gave it all up. Luke, as a doctor, probably very wealthy, gave it all up. So he's speaking to the disciples that they know this because they've already experienced it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'm assuming that, like, say Peter and those guys who are fishermen, they own their own business. Didn't mean they didn't they were poor. Yeah, they may have been doing pretty good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so again, so he as the disciples are hearing this, a lot of this they're they're living it out.

SPEAKER_00

This is where I would say it. Paul and Luke immediately did not become poor. No, they still had money, they just started using it to leverage for the kingdom of the year.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they didn't empty their bank account right away. Paul eventually, by the end of it, probably was poor. Um I mean, we know that when he went from village to village, from community to community, he was taking up money. Yeah, he relied on certain churches. Yeah, certain churches were giving him he was thankful for that.

SPEAKER_01

But this is where I want to clarify. But he also was a tent maker and he didn't want to be, he wanted to be able to have his own money too.

SPEAKER_02

So most scholars say as a Pharisee, Paul lived a would have lived a very lucrative life. I mean, he was considered a teacher, and so like it would his role as a Pharisee, um, he he had it made and he gave all that up.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's where some people talk about well, this is the poor gospel. Well, that's why, you know, if you're gonna follow Jesus, you have to be poor. That's not the case at all. That's not that's not what Jesus is trying to say. And he doesn't hate rich people. What he's saying is, hey, it is harder when you are wealthy, it is harder when you have these things because you begin to put your trust and your hope into it instead of into the Messiah and the one true king. If you're a follower of Christ, though, and you are rich, that is not a bad thing. But what about you just got to remember to trust the Lord with it and understand, hey, I'm just a steward of what he is blessing me with.

SPEAKER_02

So then that brings up a good question. What about the camel entering the eye of the needle? And we always quote that and say, Well, therefore, rich people can't go to heaven, or God doesn't like rich people, or if you're rich, you need to give up all your money. You have the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Exactly. But in that passage, they people never follow up. What does Jesus say after that? He says, With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. So I think that's the part that you have to remember.

SPEAKER_01

It then goes back to Matthew's version of poor and spirit stating, you don't have what it takes to do this and to pull it off. You need my help. Yes. So I I think they're speaking about the same thing. It's not just poor people, it is about your spiritual side of things.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And here is like what he's saying, though, is like if you put your hope into just being rich and think that's what's going to get you to heaven, you're you're missing it. Yeah. Because what they were equating was that they were rich, so that means they had God's blessing upon them. That means they were doing something, right?

SPEAKER_01

That is Yeah, that's definitely. And I get where they I mean, you saw that Abraham had abundance and Jacob had abundance and Isaac, all these guys had these massive herds of animals and all these people, and that was their sign of they were wealthy.

SPEAKER_02

But that's why they're blessed. Going back to the other where the rich man walks away sad because he realized of all the things I can do for Jesus, of all the things I can do to follow him, the one thing I cannot do is give away my wealth. I cannot do that. Yeah. And so that's where I think for so many people it's that one thing. You know, well, why won't you accept? Why aren't you ready to accept Jesus? It's that one thing that isn't just letting them do it. And I think uh it doesn't have to be money.

SPEAKER_01

It doesn't have to be money, right?

SPEAKER_02

It can be whatever whatever it is. And so I mean, Jesus is speaking uh to everyone in that sense.

SPEAKER_00

And that's where I'm saying it's I think it's a reality check for us to be like, okay, it's okay that we have money. It's okay. Because honestly, in America, what are we instead of the top three? Yeah, we're all rich. I mean, the poorest people are still in the top three.

SPEAKER_02

If you make, I think if you make more than two thousand dollars a year, you are in the 99.9% richest people in the world.

SPEAKER_01

There was a time, I think I even looked up indoor plumbing. If you have indoor plumbing, you're like in the I think it's like 70% of the world.

SPEAKER_02

If you if you have indoor plumbing, if you go to sleep year-round and your room is between 68 and 75 degrees, you are the top tax bracket of the world.

SPEAKER_00

And so that's what but I think what he's doing is hey, check your spirit. Why do you have these things? And are you putting your hope into this or are you putting your hope in Christ? And then are you, yes, these things are a blessing to us, but are you using it just to fulfill yourself or are you using it to provide and to promote the kingdom?

SPEAKER_02

One of the top three misquoted Bible verses of all Bible verses is money is the root of all evil. The Bible does not say that. It's the love. Money is just paper. Money by itself means nothing. What power do we give that? That's what Jesus is saying. The love for it. Yeah. Their love of it.

SPEAKER_00

But he hits, I think, everybody on the woes, like whether it's from the rich to the well-fed to the um laughing to um because and then the last one, woe to you when everyone speaks well of you. We we like it when people give us encouragement, when people say good things, when people give us those likes, those comments, and the different things like that. But again, are you putting your hope into that and your satisfaction into that and and finding it?

SPEAKER_01

That can so easily happen, especially for pastors. Um, people want to compliment, yeah, hey, you great sermon. Hey, you did a great job of this, you did a great job of that. And it so easily can get you to be like, hey, I'm pretty awesome. Pride is the number one killer of ministers. Which so then I'm glad you brought that word up, pride, because the opposite of that word is humble, yeah, and that is the main word that comes from poor in spirit is humility.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And that's what he's doing here. That's how he's flipping the world upside down, is he saying, hey, he is exalting those who are humble and he's humbling those who are proud.

SPEAKER_02

And how would he put it into practice? He would wash feet. I mean, that's literally the most humble action you can find. Have you ever experienced that? Uh at All Star, it you don't want me to explain. You it's weird. I'm sure you have a nice spiritual testimony.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it was we were in India and they wanted to wash our feet, and it's just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, thanks. It's okay. I mean, it's just weird.

SPEAKER_02

You understand Peter a little bit more when he's like, no, Lord, like yeah, don't touch these dogs, man. Well, then so then we know it's just awful. So then the entire youth group, we had a big conversation. Would you rather wash a stranger's feet or have a stranger wash your feet? And it was pretty divided of like, oh, if I had to pick one, I guess, and then you know.

SPEAKER_01

It but you feel it's I was I felt awkward in the sense that I don't want you to have to do that. Because it's just like to me, I just I felt not just I hate to say that I felt bad for the person. It's just I don't want anybody to have to stoop that level for me. And it was worse 2,000 years ago because they didn't wear your socks 2,000 years ago. It was sandals and dirt, dirty feet. So but it just it was awkward in sense like, no, no, no, no, no. You I'm not above you for you to do that.

SPEAKER_02

But even in our middle class American world, even that idea 2,000 years later is like, ah man, I'm fine with you to be humble. You don't have to get that humble. Yeah, that's what Jesus said.

SPEAKER_01

And they were trying to honor us because we were obviously we're pastors, we're coming there and we're gonna preach in their church, and you're just like, I am no better than you, man. Yeah, and it really is it's an incredible image. But there's some people that can take that and go, haha, I am. I am somebody. You have to wash my feet. I mean, it's just and speaking to all of the above.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, that's every everyone involved, he's speaking to them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so, but that's what Luke's whole Jesus is. He's flipping the world upside down. Yeah, the world says, Hey, go after money, um, go after things that are gonna make you be fulfilled, uh, go after the the laughs, go after the likes, go after these things. And he is flipping that world upside down and said, That's not what it's about.

SPEAKER_01

You've heard that and it's not just the world, but he is speaking that to the religious leaders, and that's who people had to look up to and think that's what I needed to accomplish, what they've accomplished. And he's like, they have not accomplished it.

SPEAKER_02

He is pitting himself, pitting himself up against because Sermon on the Plain, Sermon on the Mount. This is more Matthew 5 through 7, but you have heard that it was said eye for an eye, but I tell you, love your neighbor and pray for those who persecute you. You know, as he goes through, you have heard that it was said, but I tell you, you have heard that it was said he is completely re-reimagining and redefining what religion is.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and because uh you know, though, like he goes through murder, he goes through adultery, he goes through all these things and judging because well, unless I actually did the act of murder, then I'm then I'm righteous.

SPEAKER_02

But if you're angry at your brother, you've committed adultery.

SPEAKER_01

And that's where he changed everything. He because it not just your actions, it's your heart. I've never cheated on my wife. Have you lusted over a woman? Oh, yep, you've committed adultery. But he's pointing at the heart now. Yeah, he's not just about your actions because they were checking boxes, they were faking it, and they looked good on the outside, but on the inside, rotten as could be. And that's what he was trying to point out. Yeah, it's an inside out transformation.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And but and that's what he's also doing is looking at the outsiders and say, Welcome in to the family. You're no longer outside the family. Because they thought they would never be able to do it. Guess what?

SPEAKER_02

Everyone in this room, you have now been charged, convicted, and you're all guilty. And guess what?

SPEAKER_00

I am your ticket to to be freed from that. That's needed.

SPEAKER_01

That's a savior because you're all guilty.

SPEAKER_00

So on the Sermon of the Plane, he's putting everybody on a level playing field. Everyone, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's kind of fascinating, the whole just the on a plane, flat level, and putting everybody on a same level playing field. He's not standing up above on the mountain or anything. Oh no, it's just kind of cool how that all plays out.

SPEAKER_02

Scholars say, and I like even on the mountain, I don't even know how that's possible because they didn't have microphones, but they scholars think that the people coming to listen to this are just, I mean, they are passionate. Do you see how the chosen depicted that moment? That was cool.

SPEAKER_00

You haven't watched it, and so he literally, as he would talk, the disciples acted as the megaphones. So like he had them like the spread out going throughout the crowd, and so he would say it, and then like Peter would say it, and then like Angie would say it. And like they would just keep carrying it out throughout, which obviously we don't know how it happened. But it was a really cool image.

SPEAKER_02

That's like a game of telephone. So then it gets to like Peter's at the very end.

SPEAKER_01

Matthew's taking notes at the end, and he's like, that's all let's make something up so how that could end up. I mean, we would say let's hope Luke was at the front or wherever he was listening to and recording this from. They were at the front, straight in front of Jesus, not like four or five layers.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, that I agree. That's one of the things that stood out when studying is like, oh, even Luke knowing where he's at and his where he came from, the posture of Jesus being on instead of on the mountain on the the playing field is important. Sorry, I was thinking of ideas of what telephone could have ended up from what Jesus said to what it said. Um anyway, so it was a it's very cool how he just flips everything upside down all the way to the end of his gospel. Uh, we have the criminal on the cross, and and he looks at him and says, Today you'll be with me in paradise. Yep. Um, but to kind of kick off our next part of the conversation. Um and how what he even says here on the Sermon of the Plane, uh, start in verse 22, we'll say, He says, Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you, and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. He's telling the disciples, hey, the world, whenever they're coming after you, that's actually a good thing. Yeah, and you're gonna be blessed. That means you're doing something right and you're living differently, which I've called you to live differently in the world. When you're living in the spirit, it's gonna be different than what everything else the world is doing. He says, Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven, for that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. And so he is talking about, hey, these Jews, these Pharisees, and everything, how they treated their prophets, the ancestors, they killed them. They killed them. And then they would find out later after they killed them, oh, he was actually right. Yeah. And so any messenger of God, which we are now, messengers of God, as we he is revealed through the Holy Spirit in us to the rest of the world, when now the world rejects us, it is like we are those Old Testament prophets, is what he's comparing us to. But then you fast forward down to verse 26. He says, Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets. So the question now becomes why are they expect hating you and insulting you and rejecting you whenever you're speaking of Jesus? But whenever everyone speaks well of you, why does that make you a false prop false prophet?

SPEAKER_01

Well, and it'd be better to distinguish that at you know, believers that are speaking well of you, that's okay. Yeah, because they agree with what you're saying. It's the obviously the world, which you just said. So when someone comes up to you, Roger, after your sermon, who is a believer, hey, that was really good. I don't think Jesus is talking about that. Woe to you because they spoke well of you. It is then the outside world that then doesn't agree. Like when we get feedback from this podcast and the things we say, and there's people like, oh, and they get all ticked off.

SPEAKER_00

Now you're talking about the right types of people, I think. So that's right. And and that's and and that's what he's saying is because um when you're talking about Jesus and you're and you're doing something right there, again, the world is not gonna like you because the word of God is a double-edged sword. It it is, yes, it brings joy, hope, and peace on the other side, but in order to do that, it's convicting and it is tearing away our old self. It is convicting because now we it's not affirming our actions in this world, but no, it actually is trying to transform us. That means we have to change. And now, if you are an unbeliever and you don't like that, and somebody comes to you and says, Hey, I'm not gonna affirm who you are and what you are doing in your sin, but things need to change, but they don't like that. And so what are they gonna do? They they're gonna be upset with you, they're gonna speak bad of you. Whereas there is false teachers, false prophets that are out there using the word of God and not um interpreting correctly to what God is saying in his word, to give people what they want to hear, and then that makes them a false teacher, and what here would be a false prophet, and people are like, oh, you're affirming me. I agree with what you say.

SPEAKER_02

It kind of flips our current church culture because you know, we hear, oh, well, we just we need to talk about all the things that are going out here. Well, Paul actually says before we judge the world that we actually, it's as believers that we actually hold the standard with each other because we're under the impression that the world doesn't have what we have. So we can't judge an outsider. Oh, did you see what they're doing and blah, blah, blah, you know, how despicable we as Christians, and you blah, blah, blah. And it's like, yeah, we can we can condemn that.

SPEAKER_01

They're operating in walling. But it's a different book that we do.

SPEAKER_02

And we need to we need to give them the truth that we have. But the idea that we're going to use our standard to now go out and condemn the world, when Jesus, even in John 3.17, says, I have not come to condemn the world, that we are so focused on judging those on the outside. And Paul says, actually, it's your brother and sister in Christ. Those are the ones that you have to have scrutiny with. And when they do sin, you are called to lovingly go to them. And and as he says in as Jesus says in John 7.14, we judge with a righteous judgment and we tell them, hey, you're living in sin. That's not good for you. Like we as believers are called to do that. And then, but unfortunately, some of us hear that and say, Oh, so that means I'm now responsible for every single person's sin that's that's not a believer in Jesus. No, that's that's actually not the standard that we use.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but I and I I think really what we're getting at here is though, there's people that are using their pulpit or their platform to use the word of God to push forward their own personal agenda, and they're doing it intentionally. And that is what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a knowingly false teaching.

SPEAKER_00

And so, like, I think there's many different forms out there. I mean, I would I would say a form of false teaching would be the prosperity gospel. Yep, right? Yeah, heresy. Yeah, exactly. It it's no not anywhere found in in in our scripture and our Bible. But yet they're using that to play on people's emotions to get something that they want. Right. And so that's a major form, I would say.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'll even take it another step further with the whole prosperity gospel. I don't like it when I hear people if you start tithing, then great things will start happening for you in your life. It's like stop.

SPEAKER_02

Even though, even though that may be true, that doesn't mean because you don't if you tithe to receive a blessing, then you've lost it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

If you tithe because it's a spiritual discipline and and we've been commanded as believers, then that's different, and then the blessings will come. I would also say prosperity gospel, but it kind of goes back to what we talked about just a few minutes ago. The poverty gospel as well is equally misaligned because people misinterpret that. The idea of if I give more or if I have more or if I have less or give less, that actually um Jesus is gonna love you the exact same regardless of how much you give.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, why aren't you getting up and getting a job? Well, Jesus said, Blessed are the poor. So I'm just I can't work it. I'm just gonna wallow in my poorness and work. Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna go.

SPEAKER_02

So the prosperity gospel is a is a big one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, but I think we see a major one going on right now, you know, bringing kind of talking about politics even more. Um, is this guy going around? And I would I would come out and say, he is probably the biggest false teacher we have right now that I know of, or at least he's been going around on Rogan, different podcasts, and that's James Tallerico. Yeah. Um a U.S. representative candidate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he just he just defeated, so he's a Democrat. Um I talked about him Wednesday night in our apologetics class. We talked about him for quite a while. Um, and we don't talk about this to to gossip or to slander. Um, everything we're saying here, uh fact check, you know, research yourself, but um what I would call a wolf in sheep's clothing, um, he I know he beat Jasmine Crockett for the Democrat primary. He's now running. I don't know who the Republican is that he's running against. Um everything I've read, all the polls say that he is is does not have a chance, but the fact that he is at least on the platform of a major party is enough to say, even if he gets destroyed in the in the main election, he's already made his mark. He's already preached what he's preached. People already know. Yes. And uh he has a platform that 99% of this country will never dream of having. And he has used his platform to uh spew lies and distortions about Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I uh even just to clarify the the basic print the basic concept of false teaching that I would say Paul talks about is anything that adds to the gospel with regards to how you must be saved. Um, because it started with Jews saying, well, in order to be saved, then you need or you need to be circumcised and you also need to follow certain food laws. These all the foods are not clean like you claim they are. And then from that it kind of progressed that there's you know, some people felt that or were teaching that the resurrection had already happened, and you kind of wonder about that. And people are like, You mean we got left behind kind of thing? And so those are type of those are the typical what Paul was pushing back on was this adding to what it required to be saved. Yeah now what Talo Rico is doing, he's he's just straight up not interpreting the Bible correctly.

SPEAKER_02

And that's the most important part probably about this guy. We're not just picking some random U.S. No uh politician, he's an ordained Presbyterian minister and he is a pastor of a Presbyterian church.

SPEAKER_00

And the way he's phrasing it and speaking from is a place of authority. He's acting like he has authority of the scripture to make it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, because Joe Rogan's not a Christian, and Joe Rogan, if you listen to the interview, is earnestly and genuinely asking him questions like, okay, well, how do you explain this? And then Talerico will give this just completely unbiblical, outlandish answer. Well, Joe Rogan, who's not a believer, hears it and says, Oh, okay. Okay, interesting. Yeah. So that's that's where it's very dangerous.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, false, and so because he calls himself a pastor, and that Bible is very clear in the New Testament to test these false teachers, false prophets. Oh, over 25 plus times does it tell us to test them? And you know, so let's let's a little bit about him. He's Texas State Representative. Um, he's running for Senate, I think. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01

Was Crockett a senator or a state rep?

SPEAKER_02

She was a state, well, she was a U.S.

SPEAKER_01

rep, but now I think she I don't know if her Crenshaw's seat as well. Or no, they've been around. No, Crenshaw, that's a different seat.

SPEAKER_02

He lost, but no. Uh Crockett, she's not running for the same seat. Yeah, he's running away. Well, she was going for Senate U. Senate, though. So she was U.S. Senate.

SPEAKER_01

Whoever he's gonna either go up against Cornyn or Pax is it Paxton is the Cornyn or Paxton. He beat Crockett, which was not supposed to happen either. She decided to run for Senate outside of the state rep. Now I remember that right. Yeah, she was trying to move up. Yeah. Um so yeah, this guy's gonna go up either against Cornyn or Paxton. Is it Paxton?

SPEAKER_02

And again, for everything I've read says that his chances are minimal, but his chances against Crockett were minimal ease with the. Oh thought. Um and so the point being is like if he did not espouse Christianity, there's a lot of U.S. politicians that are not safe. But in New Israel, he is using an authority in the name of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And we talked about what is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, what we believe, is attributing what is of the Spirit and attributing it to say, well, actually, it it that's that's evil. That's that's Satan. And so what he is doing is he is attributing, he is saying, in the authority of Jesus Christ, and then following that authority he speaks of, he then goes and says a bunch of things that are patently unbiblical.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. So anybody that's not a Christian listening to this, I just want to make it clear we are not allowing him to speak on our behalf. So like whatever you hear from him, he is not speaking on behalf of us pastors or us Christians.

SPEAKER_02

And nobody would argue that what he is saying is orthodoxy.

SPEAKER_00

Uh you know, but he is claiming because he studied theology at Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Then he went on to Harvard, I believe.

SPEAKER_02

He was masters, not in theology, something else.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Um, and he frames his politics through a progressive Christian theology, yeah, is how he phrases it.

SPEAKER_02

Which if you don't know what progressive, of course, you know what progressivism politically progressive. Well, it's uh the synonym for progressive is liberal, and we know what liberal means politically. Well, actually, it applies similarly to uh Christianity. Liberal Christianity or progressive Christianity is the idea of 100% grace, 0% truth, which is not what Jesus taught, to be able to say that we can love everyone, we affirm everyone. If um somebody is struggling in sin, the best way to support their sin is not to condemn them or judge them righteously. The correct thing is to continue to support and affirm whatever sin that they're going through. It's the belief that ultimately, yes, Jesus may have died, he may have rose again, but we can still get to heaven apart from that. It is it is basically the love of God that allows everybody into heaven. I would guess Tallerico probably does not believe in hell. I would I would guess that he's probably a universalist because progressive Christianity usually preaches against hell, that Jesus was using allegories and was, you know, the whole hellfire and brimstone and gnashing of teeth, that was all allegorical, figurative language. Because again, if love is love, then we all get to go to heaven. It doesn't matter who you accept as your Lord and Savior. So that's kind of just a straw man, if you will, of what we would call progressive Christianity, which he is obviously a very ardent proponent or proponent of.

SPEAKER_00

And that and that is why we are calling him out, is because it the Bible says to test these false teachers, and he is a very prominent one right now going around social media running for uh political office. Um and so I think we have to give a warning.

SPEAKER_02

We wouldn't talk about mom Dani's theology. Well, we would talk about it, but we won't talk about like in Islamic culture, this is where he's wrong, this is where he's right, because we don't we we we he's not dealing with the same thing we are. Talon Rico is claiming the same authority that we have.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, he's claiming to represent us, and we're saying no, he he doesn't represent. We don't represent anything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But you also you were mentioning that his false teaching is going to affect unbelievers, right? Yeah. But I'd I'd I'd really hate to be a member of his church because those are considered believers that he is leading down a very wrong path. That's where things I should see really bad.

SPEAKER_00

It makes those people feel good. And it's affirming their sin. And so that's why he's saying, woe to those types of people, because that's the same thing they did for false prophets, because the false prophets in the Old Testament, they just told the people what they wanted to hear. And that is what he's doing. He's just telling them, hey, this is what you guys want to hear this? Okay, I can twist God's word to make you guys like it.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it goes back to the social gospel of the of the the early 1900s, where really progressive Christianity began in the West, is this idea of the social gospel that basically Jesus' main focus was feeding the poor and taking care of the prisoners and doing all of these social ideas that basically our religion must be predicated on social advocacy, that our religion basically is political, and we sprinkle Jesus onto our political foundation. That's what he's doing. Jesus is basically the sizzle where his politics are his stake.

SPEAKER_00

So you want to go one by one through some of the things that he claims? Or do you want me to just give a list real quick and then we can go back through and break them down? Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, well, and to say the two biggest things that the when he argues Jesus, the two things that he defends the most that I've heard, number one is uh gender issues, transgenderism, and the other one is life, abortion. He is a uh obviously a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00

So that's a bit so big one, he he inclusive theology that Jesus would affirm LGBTQ because and he uses the argument from silence that Jesus does not outright come against them.

SPEAKER_02

Of course he affirmed Genesis 2, yeah, that a man will leave his father, mother, join his wife, become one flesh, which obviously would not be LGBT marriage.

SPEAKER_00

No, and so he he got does do that, and then obviously he says um Jesus is actually pro-choice. Um and because that's how he created us. And then the third thing, um, he is now he's making the argument Jesus wasn't a legal immigrant, so Jesus would um include or be affirmed illegal immigration and say that's okay. That one's easy, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Those are like his before all those are his Roman culture. He was he was a he was a they were free travelers, they were not illegal, they were refugees, they were, you know, go back to the Old Testament, sojourners that had to we go back as a conform to the laws of that and culture. More so than even today, because they actually had to conform to the Mosaic religious law that the Jews believed.

SPEAKER_00

So But this is why it's important because he's prior to prioritizing this inclusive stuff over historical orthodoxy. Some people be like, well, isn't that what you just talked about in Luke? Like, oh, he was for the outsiders. But what Jesus wasn't doing was he wasn't including them in affirming their sin in what they were doing. He was calling them out of that sin. And once they left that sin, they were becoming part of the insiders. And so it wasn't as he was affirming them where they were at, he was providing salvation for them to leave that.

SPEAKER_02

He ate with the sinners, he did not sin with them. And he, in eating with them, he told them, Hey, I have a better plan and purpose for you. That's that was the whole purpose of eating. Still loved them, just didn't love their sin. Exactly. And so what he is doing is obviously the opposite. I heard one sermon clip um on YouTube where um he's speaking of women, but he's not using the word woman. He's using the word um human with a womb is what he is describing because he wants to make sure and affirm um men, biological men, or I'm sorry, biological women who have uh transitioned into what they believe is a man, and to be able to affirm then, because of course, if you have that worldview, men can have babies and women can have male genitalia. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01

Why aren't more and man, I don't know if I'll get in trouble for saying this. Why aren't more women standing up and saying, I am not a human with a womb? I'm a woman.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I mean I'm just like one of one of the most influential feminists of the 20th, 21st century is J.K. Rowling, who wrote the Harry Potter series. J.K. Rowling is considered to be the biggest transphobe on Reddit and Twitter and all of these things because she has flat out said, You are not going to take away my womanhood. Yeah. And you're not going to take biological men that have all this testosterone and enter them into female sports and then allow them to dominate female sports. So like there actually there is a wave of feminism today that says, hey, we've worked a long time to separate ourselves from this, and now you're trying to basically uh infiltrate what we have worked for. So that does exist.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And it just surprises me. And like overall, what Talerico's doing is he's taking his progressive political lens and looking at scripture through that lens. Instead of interpreting the Bible and then taking that to apply it to his political lens, he's taking his progressive politics and then that's how he's interpreting the Bible.

SPEAKER_02

When both of them come come when there's a conflict between the two, as believers, our political views and our scriptural views, we always align with scripture. Yeah. He's doing the exact opposite. When his religious belief and his political belief go uh head to head, he always falls back to the wheel.

SPEAKER_00

I think we talked about it in the American Jesus a few about a month ago. Um, we have the same problem with people calling themselves conservative Christians. And because they're looking at it through their conservative lens before their Christian.

SPEAKER_02

I agree. Yeah, yeah. And we do that on both sides of, you know, I I I saw I was alive in 2008 for Barack Obama, I've been alive for Donald Trump, I've seen uh flawed political candidates, flawed human beings. And we as human beings, we love looking at fallible people and putting our faith into them. So I think that both left and right, we we've had a problem of doing that, but that's where we always go back on doctrine. We always go back on what does the word of God say. And so we've already talked about, okay, so Jesus, he says Jesus was an illegal immigrant, therefore we need to have open border, right? That that is that is absurd.

SPEAKER_00

Um Jesus, the argument from silence like can I we can say like the Bible's very pro-borders, by the way. Like it's very pro-boundaries. You can you can have those and still love for them.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so And you made a a logical fallacy claim, which is the argument from silence, which is a very, very common tactic of in the red letters, Jesus doesn't mention homosexuality. Jesus doesn't also mention um genocide, he doesn't mention gang rape, he doesn't mention all kinds of things. He doesn't mention bestiality. I mean we can he, you know, there's all of this large list of of basically in the red letters, and the idea is that maybe Jesus doesn't outright say homosexuality is a sin, but he affirms the biblical account, the Genesis account, he affirms what marriage is, and so you don't really have to read between the lines to see if you can go and change the Levitical law. No, he didn't do a you can afford what I say. Yes, exactly. So in that Jesus, um, we don't have to read between the lines to see Jesus did speak out against that, even if he did not use the exact Greek wording that you're looking for.

SPEAKER_00

Or Aramaic wording. Let's go now into the the biggest one he talks about is abortion. Yeah. Um, and he uses the Mary's account, Luke's account of the Christmas story, um, to show and try to say, oh, this proves that Mary that God is pro-choice because Mary got to choose.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, this is the one where I think, and Jaden asked before, is like, are we dealing with primary issues or secondary issues? So far, like the illegal immigration thing, I think you can get to heaven on that. I think you're fine. Um, I think on the same-sex marriage thing, I think you could believe uh in a governmental same-sex marriage, and I don't think that that is potentially salvific. It can be if depending on what your theology is. But I think the government says it's doesn't mean it is.

SPEAKER_00

They fly the I've seen an inside business. They fly the rainbow flag and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, of course. Um, and so but I believe the first two, yeah, the homosexuality one, yeah, we I mean that that one I struggle with a little bit more so than the the immigration one because I I could understand the heart of someone that says, well, I want to love them and allow them in. Um it's of course, in practice, a terrible idea, but at least the heart, your your heart posture is in the right place, I think, for many of them that argue that. But now we're actually dealing with primary issues because now we're dealing with God's will. We are dealing with the very essence of God and his nature in what God believes and speaks into life. So now I think we are dealing with primary issues that can potentially prevent someone from fully um having salvation in Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00

But can we just talk about how horrible of an interpretation that is in of Luke chapter one?

SPEAKER_02

Is I don't even call it an interpretation.

SPEAKER_01

That's just it's not only is it contrary to God's plan for humanity.

SPEAKER_02

If Jordan wrote if Jordan wrote on on a piece of paper, he says, I am a white bald male, and I take that and I say, I read this as Jordan saying that he is an Ardvark, you would is that a bad interpretation? No, I'm just lying because there's no way. So I don't even call it a misinterpretation. I knew it. I knew it. So I don't even call this a bad misinterpretation. I call this just a lie.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So I don't know he not only did he go against God's entire plan for humanity of being fruitful and multiplying, um, which is across the entire Bible, he now see, and this is where I think it gets really serious. Is that's a shot at Jesus. Yeah. Specifically, that Mary could have had a choice on whether she was going to carry Jesus or not.

SPEAKER_00

Well, no, he the way he's phrasing it is Mary had the choice to abort Jesus, is what he's saying.

SPEAKER_02

He's using it as he's using it as an argument that women should be allowed to consent to murder their baby because he's saying Mary could have murdered God. Well, especially when we know that if it later on in Luke that we see Jesus leaping for joy in the womb to know that yes, he was the savior even as an unborn child. But Talo Rico's argument, the way he made it sound on Rogan, is that we do not have a right to prevent a woman from consenting to abortion. And the argument he makes, he doesn't argue from science or sociology or anything like that. He argues from scripture, and he cites Mary and arguing that Mary had the not just ability to say no, but the ability to say no, and if she initially would have said yes, to then turn around and say, Okay, now I now I I revoke consent and I'm going to abort this child.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That is anybody that knows him is close to him, I wouldn't stand too close. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, because like that but in the argument because in the conversation, the angel appears to Mary and says, Hey, this is what the Lord's gonna do, and Mary asks a question and then says, Let the Lord's will be done. Yeah, I am I'm the Lord's servant, let the Lord's be done.

SPEAKER_02

Mary was not given a consent form, but also when we use the word consent, we often use it in the context of intercourse, right? Or some type of sexual act. That is not it to even think of consent in the Christmas story means that your view of the Christmas story is so uh disgusting and slanted that you're trying to use that as an argument of sexual consent or life consent or any of those things.

SPEAKER_00

It's just so the only way you uh interpret it out of that is you bring stuff into scripture. You're a politics. Yeah, you're not taking scripture for what it is, you're not opening up the Bible and just reading it and letting the Holy Spirit work, not doing that at all.

SPEAKER_01

The only thing I could possibly see his understanding is that we all have a choice whether we choose God's plan or not. Yeah, but I would even then go to say that he is talking about the mother of Jesus, Mary, and when she got visited by the angel Gabriel, there was no her only question was, Well, how might how can you explain to me how this is gonna go down? Yeah, it wasn't a question of, oh, I don't believe you, like uh John the Baptist dad, Zachariah, was like, how's that even possible? I'm really old, and so is my wife. Mary's was just kind of like, Really? I'm just curious, how's this gonna go down? And require kind of just an inquisitive, just so I understand, yeah, how are we gonna do this? There was never a moment of, well, let me think about it.

SPEAKER_02

And God foreknew Mary's heart.

SPEAKER_01

And he knew she was overjoyed. He knew God chose her to be his servant.

SPEAKER_02

And the problem is that when you paint the Christmas story as uh a political ploy to bring up consent, it's like we're where does it have to do that? It just came straight out of outer space. Exactly. It's just so out there. Um now, if you hear that and you think, oh, well, of course, you know, Talerico's a Democrat and you guys are making arguments against Democrats, there are goblins on both the Republican side and the Democrat side. I don't think that this is just, oh, we're gonna harp on Democrat politicians. And I also think there's Republican politicians that will say the name of Jesus, but then their voting actions or their physical actions will will completely go against what they say about Jesus. So this is not just we're picking this one individual person because he has purposely infiltrated himself in into uh American culture. What's the one where they in the church? Well, and calls himself a Christian, calls himself a child. What do they do with the the the debate where they have different people go into the church? He was on the Jubilee, so he is wanting people to talk about this.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, and so yeah, he's throwing himself out there. I 100% I would say he's a false teacher. Um, but this is I think just a warning for everybody of anybody that calls himself a pastor, calls himself a Christian, test it to God's word. Like, and that's what the New Testament tells us to do is test them. And that's what we're doing with them is we're testing them, and it's false. So um don't blindly follow this guy, don't blindly follow anybody that calls himself a pastor or a Christian. Um, but yeah, we we got to call those types of people out. Um prepare the prepare the flock. But the big thing is he's using the gospel of Luke and how Luke was a clearly the elders of that church have failed them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because they are supposed to guard do they even have elders?

SPEAKER_02

And here's the cool part about here's the cool part about the Bible and about Christianity. What gives you the authority? Do I have to be a pastor? No, you is you have the Holy Spirit living inside you, you have the word of God. You do not have to be a scholar to read the word of God into into through the Holy Spirit to be able to interpret it correctly, and we can disagree on secondary issues, right? That's the beauty of Christianity. We can have debates and arguments, but when you start taking the the primary essence of God, right, the very will of God, and you start distorting it and misusing it to fit your own sinful, egregious worldview. Now we're now we're knocking on the door of blasphemy. And and and biblically, the worst thing you can call someone is a blasphemer. The worst thing you could call them. And I think that what I've seen from this from this guy is that he's knocking on the door to that.

SPEAKER_00

And so Yeah, and and but and he's taken the gospel of Luke, and where Jesus is a he's a God for the outsiders, but he is trying to say that that means God is affirming everything that they're doing.

SPEAKER_02

Or Jesus fed poor people, therefore, the purpose of Christianity is we should only focus on social issues.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so he's taking that and he's totally misusing that. Yes, God came for the outsiders, he came for you and me, but he came to change us, not affirm us. Um, and that's the biggest thing that I hope people understand from this.

SPEAKER_01

But okay, around the table, is he gonna win?

SPEAKER_02

No. Listen, I said the same thing about mom Don. I said no way. Yes. I said no way on Mom Don. My thing is that he's in Texas.

SPEAKER_00

He's in Texas, and so I think that might help. Um But I think it's like when we say I don't think Texas is safe anymore.

SPEAKER_02

But we think of California is just being all blue, but then you talk to some people from California, they're like, there's actually a lot of red.

SPEAKER_00

And so, like this is the big cities, but that's the problem that's getting into Texas, is a lot of people left California, but they're bringing their politics into Texas.

SPEAKER_02

And we see in Missouri there's been so many instances where St. Louis, Kansas City, and then Columbia basically carries in Springfield tunics, it carries the entire state. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I uh sadly I think he'll win. Yeah, I don't want him to, but I just it's there's a there's a something's changing in Texas. I hope it's not true. Yeah, but the fact that he's even the prime candidate for the seat, that he has made it that far. But if he wins, get ready.

SPEAKER_02

If he wins, it's God's will, it's God's plan, and God will still be on the throne. And that's what the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01

And I will stick to my dates on the end times. I think there'll be a person. It's like King Herod. King Herod, man.

SPEAKER_02

People are like, no, get this king out of here. And God's like, hey, Herod has a role in my story. I know it's crazy, I know he's wanting to go out and kill babies. Guess what Talerico's doing?

SPEAKER_00

See, but he's now going out and wanting to kill Talerico, God allowing it, because he's turning us over to our sin. Yeah. Like and he's saying, Oh, if you're going to continue to choose this, I'm just going to turn you over to the world.

SPEAKER_02

It's such an obvious version of a false teacher, too, that it it it you don't again, you don't have to just have this incredible gift of discernment to hear what this guy is saying and to be able to say, yeah, that does not align with the word of God.

SPEAKER_01

But yet somehow not only does culture say yes, the church is saying yes. Yeah. That's where he's really crazy.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think it's a church.

SPEAKER_01

He calls it a church.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's a Presbyterian church is not a small denomination. But there was even a church in Columbia that they called themselves a Baptist church, and they had a they had a uh drag queen come and uh and speak. Or here's a here's a But I know there's different parts to the Presbyterian church, but man Well think of take away political stuff and look at the Westboro Baptist Church. Are they a Baptist church? Of course not.

SPEAKER_01

I mean they're not a were they a Southern Baptist Church? They're independent Baptists.

SPEAKER_00

Well here's what I I I want to make clear before we end. Um Baptist is a pretty generic presbytery is probably pretty pretty from what I've read different parts it's it's a few.

SPEAKER_02

But I think that it's it's more so you can claim I can start a church and claim to be, but from what I've read, I don't know if his church, and I I can fact check once I'm done. I don't think that they're officially part of that branch. Like they are a member, like we are a member of the Southern Baptist Convention. I think that they're like an independent Presbyterian church. I think I'll have to do that.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, the United Methodists, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and Presbyterians have different, they've kind of had some splits because of these issues.

SPEAKER_02

Right. So I think the Presbyterian, the the mainline denomination would endorse or affirm the church. I pray I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_01

There's none of it that does. Yeah, at least uh LGBTQ or uh same-sex marriage.

SPEAKER_02

But it's interesting because like you look at Reform theology, Presbyterian for a long time is is one of the most conservative denominators. They're very conservative, and so now we have this that's infiltrating that denomination.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I'd take, I think we'd all say to kind of lay in the plane here, um yes, Jesus does love people who struggle with homosexuality. Yes, he does love people who have made um the decision to have an abortion. He does love people who are potentially illegal immigrants, but what he does like in that is he's saying, I love you, but I'm not affirming you in your sin. I love you enough that I've died for you because I want to help change you for the better. And I hope that's what people hear. Hopefully. And that and that's what we believe he can do for people's life. Yes, transform them.

SPEAKER_02

And I will say when we talk about homosexuality, and that's one that's just everyone talks about, um Jesus, I think, does not want us to live in homosexual sin. He does not want us to live in heterosexual sin. And so we all have something. And if if you're listening to this and you are homosexual or you know someone, the thing is that we all have something. We all have that thing. Like you said, the rich man. He had he walked away sad. We all have that one thing. And so um, you know, we we love homosexuals, we pray for true salvation and repentance, and that they are able to live a life that God has planned for them.

SPEAKER_01

And for anyone that is suffering in sin, repentance for all and all the sins because God sees them all the same, everyone.

SPEAKER_00

Well, um, it's a fun conversation. I was just gonna say it was a fun conversation. Um, but that's it for us on the Make Heaven Crowded podcast. You're gonna want to join us this Sunday. What about Israel? Well, we'll talk about that later. We'll talk about that later. We've got a lot to talk about. Yeah, we'll we will have a podcast on that later on down the road. Uh, but hey, this Sunday, uh, it's really exciting. I got our professor, uh, Dr. Rodney Reeves coming into town. He's gonna come to launch it, but we had a snowstorm, and so he's coming in this week. You're not gonna want to miss this Sunday. Not the snowstorm we just had today, yeah, no, but a few months ago. Yeah, and so he's gonna come in and and preach on the Matthew's Jesus. Um, so you're not gonna want to miss that, but until next week. Um, thank you for joining us on the Make Heaven Crowder podcast.