CAN CHRISTIANS BE POSSESSED BY DEMONS?? | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 25

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we step into one of the most intense and often misunderstood questions in the Christian faith: Can Christians be possessed by demons?

What does Scripture actually say about spiritual warfare, demonic influence, and the authority of Jesus? Is there a difference between possession and oppression? And how should believers think about the reality of the spiritual realm without falling into fear or confusion?

We dive into questions like:

• Can a true follower of Jesus be possessed by a demon?
• What does the Bible say about spiritual warfare?
• Is there a difference between oppression, influence, and possession?
• How should Christians respond to demonic activity today?
• What authority do believers have in Christ?

This conversation isn’t about hype or fear—it’s about truth, clarity, and confidence in Jesus. Our goal is to ground everything in Scripture and point back to the victory already won through the cross.

If the enemy is real, then understanding how to stand firm matters.
And if Jesus has authority over it all, then we have nothing to fear.

🎙️ Series: Spiritual Warfare & Truth
📖 Topics: Demons, Authority of Christ, Spiritual Warfare, Freedom
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. I am Pastor Luke. I'm with Pastor Jordan. Pastor Roger is not going to be with us here today, so we are actually going to have an amazing conversation that you're really going to enjoy as we are going into our part two of Demon Activity Conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

So more conversation, less debate. Is that maybe what you're getting at?

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Probably so. Yeah, so we're going to have fun. We're going to go in deep, but it's all about, and so we can learn how to become better followers of Christ in this world so that we can make heaven more crowded. And I believe this conversation is going to help us do that. But let's start off. This past Sunday, we had quite the treat. We had uh, I don't know whether they're calling doctor or pastor, but doctor, pastor Rodney Reeves.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

I was struggling with that too, and I didn't really know how to. I just called him pastor.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

You know, um it's so ingrained in me to call him doctor that I think that would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah. And I think then uh since I didn't really know him until yesterday I got to meet him for the first time, I just addressed him as pastor from one pastor to another. Yeah. And even then, for me, I'm just like, hi, I'm Pastor Jordan.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

He's so tall and he has like this authority, like authority approach to him, not just when he speaks, but when he talks, and you you just listen to him. And yeah, he came up from uh FBC Jonesboro to share with us yesterday as we've been in this Rediscovering Jesus uh sermon series. He is one of the authors of the book, Rediscovering Jesus. And that has kind of been our template that we've used for the sermon series um as we've been going through it. And his where he goes deep into study is actually Matthew. He wrote a Matthew commentary. Yeah, I saw that. I did not know he wrote that. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

That's a really good commentary set.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, and so he uh was able to come and share on Matthew's Jesus this past week. And by golly, he went from the beginning of Matthew to the last verse of Matthew in 30 minutes. It was a good one.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, but I heard him say, I have the difficult task of going through the entire book of Matthew. I'm like, he's gonna go through all of Matthew? Yeah, and sure enough, he did. And I liked his how he kind of was able to kind of go from a 30,000-foot view and then hone in on certain things and kind of pop back out where you could see the full perspective of where Matthew was coming from, like say King Messiah, that kind of thing, and the authority of Christ, but then dive into very specific examples of it. I thought that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

What I was impressed with is his self-control because he was able not to go deep into those stories where I would be like deaking out of it oh yeah, there's so many in there. But you know what he started out with just the overall statement of who Matthew's Jesus was, yeah, and that is that he was the king that came into this world, and so uh Jesus is king is essentially Matthew's Jesus, and he started that from the beginning and then showed throughout Matthew's gospel how it even closed with Jesus is king, from that perspective, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, that was that, and that's what I was saying. It was really cool how he was able to see that, obviously, and I'm sure that's how he probably wrote his commentary perspective from it. But that was just cool. Uh I'll be honest with you, I'd not heard it from that perspective or just stick to that perspective all the way through. Uh, because obviously you just start to read it. Yeah. And you just read it. And it was it very interesting. And it brings Matthew to a whole new light.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, and I think it we lose sight of that as believers and us having the Bible the way we do. Very rarely do we sit down and read an entire book of the Bible. But Matthew, when it was originally written, is written to an audience who is probably going to read it all in one sitting.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

They they would read it all at once. We'd never do that. And so what was cool, he took 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Are you saying they didn't have one hour church services?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

I I would say whenever they originally got the letter, it probably went a little bit longer than one hour in the service that day.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Yeah, sorry, I interrupted you.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

I think the one hour church service is a very uh Americanized church you ever been to the church service in Panama?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Uh yes. How long are those church services? Uh you're there all morning. Uh and it's not just hanging out. It's this the sermon is close to an hour 45 to hour and a half to two hours long.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, when we were in Cuba, it was three, three hours, three to four. And I we're like, man, this is great. But it's a long time. And somebody said, Yeah, I walked five miles to get here one way, and they're gonna make it worth the money's worth deal. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Uh absolutely. Well, then you hear about the secret churches in China that are eight hours long, but they don't stop. Yeah. Because again, they've secretly tried to drive without being detected, and they're gonna get their money's worth.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

But why do you why is that? This is just side note. Why do you think that is? Why are we only one hour in the United States? Yeah, why why are why why do we design it that way?

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Um why do we do it that way? Because we're pathetic and we can't keep an attention span longer than 10 seconds, and it gets worse and worse now that we have these iPhones and digital activity that we're constantly we're instantly bored, and we can only it's like we even see it with announcements. When once we get past the third thing we announce, the eyes gloss over and they're gone. Yeah. And it's like we just keep it to two to three things. That's why we don't announce everything.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Well, I think we live in a we are fortunate enough to live in a culture where there's always something next to do. Yeah, we always have another place to go, that's another thing to happen. At least when we were in Cuba, probably the same way in Panama and other places around the world, that is what it's all about. They don't it's not like they have to run home to watch TV or a game or you know, do these different things. Yeah, they're they're just being present and and where they're at. And I think we've lost that art in America of just being present where we are and not focusing on the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Well, and even community, uh, we become very isolated as as people anymore, I think. And even just you can be in a crowd of people, but isolated into your device.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Um, and so it's a it's a funny culture that we have, and so we have adapted around that to let's just keep it short, simple, one hour that's the only attention because they're hungry and the chiefs are on. So we have to get them out of here.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And and that, and you know, all that to say, because Matthew, that's what I thought was really cool, is he went through the entire story, yeah. Not even going verse by verse or line by line, but you got the whole outline of Matthew in one sitting where you're connecting dots of, oh, this why he came from Abraham, oh, he he's Emmanuel, he's got it with us all the way now to chapter 28. Is the last thing he says is, Hey, know that I'll be with you till the authority is given to me, and I'll I'll be with you.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

I'll be with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

And so the whole thing is about, oh, the king is with us. Yeah, and you know, till the very end. And so it was really cool to see it all laid out one time. And I'm telling you, as a professor, uh, how he would teach his classes is how he taught up there. Okay, and so he would not have any notes. So there was no notes, no slideshows, there was no handouts. It was literally you would come to class, you would open up your Bible, and you had to just, as he was up there talking, just take as many notes as possible. Yeah. And his test, I mean, it pushed me. And so when I say the way I preach is very much because of how I had to study for his test, it is totally true. Oh, wow. Because you had to write it on your heart because his test, 30% of the test was matching. So, you know, who is the author of Romans and you know, what was the original audience, you know, different things like that. Then 70% of the test was one question. Oh, wow. And it was, hey, give me a theological outline, thought unit outline of Romans chapter one through eight. And you couldn't use your Bible, and so you you just like from memory have to go from Romans one to eight. So it forced you to study it, write on your heart, remember it. And the same way I'd say first test is how I prepare for a message. And so I'm yeah, love this class.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Well, into that, a lot of people do ask the question how do you guys uh preach without the notes? Um, and and a lot of times you just we they may not see it, but there is the iPad there um for all of us as the backup in case we might get lost or forget a point. But for I'd say 99.99% of the time, uh, that is the key. Um, if it's here on the heart, yeah, it's easy. Uh you're just talking what's on your heart and what God has put on your heart or speaking through you, even at times. Uh, and so once you figure out this is how I want to this is what the Lord is laying upon my heart and how to say it, it just starts going. Yeah. And it's not that hard, actually. I mean, it's nerve-wracking to me, man. I don't want to forget all these things I have going on in my head. I want to keep it in order. But uh, it'll come out uh and it's up to the Lord, obviously, too. What comes out? But that's a lot of the that's the key thing, is it's written on the heart. Yeah. Uh so that means it's genuine. It's not just I memorize this and practice this over and over and over again. Uh no, it's here, and I I can't wait to tell you what I have to share to you. Yeah. So it's pretty cool. Uh, it makes it a lot easier, I think.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Yeah, no, it really does. And you know, he even would start his class and say, Hey, uh, Paul, whenever he was in prison, do you think he had the Torah sitting in front of him? No. As he was writing things or studying it or different things like that? No, why? It was written on his heart. Yeah. In the same way, you know, we know more than we give ourselves credit for. We are just so accustomed to having, oh, I I gotta run it and go do it. But if you were forced to really, okay, go back in your memory bank, what is written on your heart? You know more and you remember more than what you gave yourself credit for.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, absolutely. Well, matter of fact, we know for a fact that Paul didn't have them because in the Second Timothy, he asked Timothy to bring him. Yeah. Just before he gets his head chopped off. So yeah, he did not have anything. But Paul was also a special guy and not to get on a sidetrack. But it's believed that guys like Paul pretty much had the Old Testament in the scriptures memorized. Yeah. And they could state it backwards and forwards.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

You know, he him being a Pharisee and um growing up in that line, he had to remember the Torah by the time he was five years old.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, I was just gonna say it started as a young boy, and even they would kind of test what boys had it and what boys could, you know, the memory to be able to do that kind of thing, and they steadily progressed and progressed and progressed. And Paul would have been literally the some of the best of the best, yeah, uh, in his abilities to do that kind of thing. So he was very rare breed and capable.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Well, speaking of Paul, it's who we're talking about this Sunday. Hey, yeah, Palm Sunday, we got Paul's Jesus to close out the sermon series, rediscovering Jesus. We're gonna be taking communion uh together and lay out why does Paul even talk about communion and what's his perspective of what that looks like. Yeah, um, but we're gonna get to talk through his testimony and you know, really who he as a as the apostle to the Gentiles, who was Paul's Jesus, if we just had his. Yeah, really excited about it. Yeah, so he went through Matthew on Sunday. Uh great, great time, but it kind of kicks off our conversation for the rest of the time. You know, and so we even used Matthew um last time we started this conversation talking about demons because it was in Matthew, um, what is it? I'm drawing a blank. Is it 17? Maybe. Um You're asking the wrong guy, chapter and verse. I think, yeah, I think Matthew 17, where he said that this demon could only be cast out by prayer and fasting.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

And the fasting part may have been added later, not sure, but yeah. Yeah, and and so that kind of sparked this conversation. And that was the centurion's son, right? Who it that story cracks me up the way I see that story, where the centurion is there, Jesus standing there, and the kid is literally like flopping around on the ground, about to throw himself in the fire, and Jesus kind of just looks at him and goes, How long has he been doing this?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, it looks it literally looks like epilepsy or some you know mm severe mental d distress that's going on.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, but Jesus is kind of like, How long has that been going on? You know, yeah. I don't know why I see it that way, but it's just kind of it's terrible to laugh about it, but it's just chill about it. Yeah, and but that also speaks to Christ didn't have to prayer, do prayer and fasting. Uh people like us or his disciples would need to. He had, and that's the other key thing with this the whole perspective of Matthew is the authority of Christ as king, not just an earthly king, but the king of heaven and earth. That's good. His ability to just be like, what's going on here? Yeah, I can take care of that. Yeah. Um, because he had the author has the authority to do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

So that's a really cool example of yeah, and I think it's a really good segue going into the conversation we're having. Um, because Matthew, he talks a lot about the demon possession. And I think it goes back to, you know, one of the main themes in Matthew is that's where we start to understand Jesus is king. Yeah, and he came from the heavenly kingdom to now put his reign here on earth as well. Yeah. And up until his point of coming on the scene, this was Satan's kingdom that he was running around and and doing and having control.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Claiming authority, and I would say reclaiming uh this is mine and not yours type authority. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

So I I want to take a step back and let's talk a little bit about you know how we know that there is a spiritual realm. So we know that, you know, God, when he created everything, um, he created a spiritual realm first, and then he created the earthly realm. And what we see uh throughout history and what we see in scripture, there is times where he peels back the curtain and allows a spiritual realm to manifest into the physical realm of the things that we can see. Uh, but there, how do we know this spiritual realm exists? How do we know that demons exist? Where does all that come from and what is a starting place for that? So that's where I want to go.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Well, I think we can actually start at creation. Yeah. Um, if you go to the end of Job, maybe chapter starting at 38, I think, somewhere in there, the very end where God is talking to Job, he starts to question Job and he says, Were you there when I created? And he was going through all the different parts of creation, and he talks about who was with him. He talks about the sons of God and the morning stars were present with God, obviously, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, when he was creating things. So there was other beings present, and who are the sons of God, and who are the morning stars? Yeah. Who are these? We think of them as angels. Um, but I've I don't think there is just one level of angel. I think there's multiple hierarchy, kind of like a structure of a military or even of a business, their structure, uh, higher levels. I think there's different levels of power within that. And we in the Bible talks about cherubim and seraphim and powerful ones. Uh, and then we hear of messenger angels that their job is just to deliver a message. Uh, but I'd say right at the start of creation, but I think even I think we were talking about Ezekiel 28 and also Isaiah 14 tells of a kind of a pre-story of what happens with Lucifer.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

That's right. And so even as you're getting to Job, and I think that's so important to understand too, is Job where we have it chronologically in our or where we have it in our Bible is not a chronological order. Right. If we were going to put it chronologically, it probably happened around Genesis, you know, chapter 9ish. Yeah. Between nine and 10, that's probably where it would go. And so a lot closer to the creation story than where we have it actually in our in our scripture. And so, yeah, we get a kind of a glimpse behind the scene on multiple parts of Job. Even at the beginning, you know, we get Satan in seems like God's throne room or a court uh there saying, hey. I joke that it's a team meeting. Yeah. And and Satan's present.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

He shows up to the team meeting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

And then we see it again at the end of Job. And so those are just like little insights that we get, I guess, into what's going on in the spiritual realm. But yeah, as you said, you know, what does it all look like? We do believe angels exist, and so angels, if they exist, I would say demons also exist. Yep. And uh believing that angels exist, we oftentimes I think misunderstand their purpose. And that's where you're kind of going into. There's that different hierarchy. Yeah. Uh, but who are angels? I believe they're messengers or servants of God, and they're also there and they're present. Thanks, Jade. They're there to serve us as well. Absolutely. And so that's that's their job laid out by God. But that we get a kind of a glimpse to what things look like in the creation story in Ezekiel. And I think this is one of those where um the author, um the prophet, Ezekiel, is is doing something and God's speaking through him in a twofold way. Number one, directly, immediate, and then a further thing going on where he's speaking. How you want to say it. So he's speaking directly to the king of Tyree, and then he's also talking about a spiritual thing going on.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, are we gonna read it out loud? Yeah, I'm gonna read it. It's kind of like that that's not possible for the king of Tyree to be where Ezekiel is going to be.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

And so stop me whenever I get to these different places. So this is what it says in Ezekiel 20. It says, You are the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Pause.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

There's no way the king of Tyree would have been in Eden, right? Because his name's not Adam.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Right, no. It says, Every precious stone adorned you, and goes through and list them. Your settings and mountings were made of gold. On the day you were created, they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I I adorned ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God. You walked among the fiery stones, you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guarding cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth, I made a spectacle of you before kings. By your many sins and dishonest trade, you have desecrated your sanctuary. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to the ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you, and you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Man.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

And so, yeah, he's not just talking about this king. You know, we would say going deeper, he's talking about Lucifer. He's talking about Satan and his fall from heaven and what that looked like when it happened. There's a few notes that I want to like bring out of this. Number one, where does he keep talking about? The mount of God. And so he paints this picture like this is on Satan was on the Mount of God with God, and he was kicked out from the Mount of God, which what we would believe would be heaven. Why is that significant? Why is that significant? Again, every time King Jesus appears and is doing something big in the book of Matthew, where is that located at?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

What when do you mean where was what located at?

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Where was Jesus located at in Matthew whenever he starts to do these big things? You know, as Dr. Reeves talked about on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Well, he started with on the mount. Right. Yeah, Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the kind of kick things off.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

We see him at the Sermon on the Mount. We see him before he fed, you know, 5,000 people or after. Where does he go? He goes on the mountain. We had the transfiguration happening on the mountain. And then as he's even leaving, about to send up into heaven, he brings them back up to this mountain. So, you know, we see that go on and on and on over and over.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

And there's that's also riddled. The mountain is all throughout the Bible, right? Of where God dwells and reigns, and even the fiery stones are other beings or thought to be other beings. Um, there's even the the thought that this idea of a king of Tyree, that some of these uh beings of heaven were assigned to different nations, and so different kings on the spiritual side of things that they ruled over that. And we'll we may come up and talk about it when we get to the example of Daniel, I think, chapter 10. Uh we see another peel the curtain back, but we don't have to get there yet. But um, Prince of Persia, that was a heavenly being that was in charge of Persia, where Michael is over Israel. Yeah, so these beings had were assigned to different areas uh or different countries or whatever territories, and so when you talk about king saw you, he could be talking about heavenly side of things, yeah, potentially there. So it's a fascinating kind of dual kind of imagery of earthly and also spiritual realm, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Um, anyways, but we get that idea but we get that idea in Ezekiel where he's showing, hey, Satan was there, part of in creation, and he was on the mount of God, he had everything you could have ever imagined. Yeah, well then because of his pride, and beauty, yeah, because of his pride, and he found pride in his beauty over the beauty of God, he fell from heaven, he sinned, and the Lord kicked him out.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah. We get a mirror of that in Isaiah 14 as well, where it talks about how he thought he could be just like God, where he could ascend to where the most high could be. That's how much pride he had.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Um that's pretty fascinating because I think when you see God for the first time when you get to heaven and you see who God is and what he looks like, just think about and Satan thought he could be that, yeah, or higher. Wow, yeah, that's some pride.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, serious pride. Yeah, and you know, the big part for me comes in Revelation 12. Okay. And so we we've kind of understood, okay, there was, you know, the angels up in heaven, you know, there's three angels that are mentioned in in the Bible, and you know, we have Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer. And Lucifer. Right. So those are the three that are named in the Bible. We know that there's more from the way that things are mentioned and talked about, but we know those three names that are mentioned. And so Ezekiel peels that curtain back. Revelation also is literally peeling the curtain back as God, Jesus, is revealing to John, the author, what it it looks like in heaven, but as he's talking about what is going to happen when Jesus returns, he takes a step back to show how we got to this point. And he does that in Revelation chapter 12. Starting in verse 7, it says, Then a war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. So it's as you're talking about the hierarchy, right there, it sounds like you have Michael, who's angel, archangel, yeah, who has other angels that worked with him or for him in this hierarchy, whatever you would say. And it says they fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was not strong enough, talking about the dragon, and they lost their place in heaven. The great jack dragon was hurled down, that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray, he was hurled to the earth and his angels with him. And what we know from scripture, it said a third of the angels in heaven fell at that moment. And followed him. So here's what we have. Okay, you have Michael, Archangel, you have Gabriel, who's also one, and he would probably have his angels, and then so a third would be Lucifer. So once Lucifer is kicked out, that's one of three. That's a third. Plus left with the two main ones and then the angels that were underneath Lucifer. Decided to follow him as well whenever he was kicked out.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

It's a fascinating image. And to think that they chose to follow him. Could they not? Did they have a decision or an uh a choice in the matter? Or were they able to make a decision like, yeah, no thanks. I'm gonna stick over here. You know what? I'm actually Michael, can I become one of the I don't mind being a messenger angel. Gabriel, can I come be a part of your team? Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. Just to try and wrap your head around what that looked like in heaven. That is wild. But you know what it also shows is that there was free will. Yes. Among angels have the ability to choose. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

And it shows that Lucifer chose to worship himself or wanted to worship for himself over the worship of God. And that's why a third of them fell with him. And you know, it's it's crazy. He's given three different names in this moment. Do we need a pause? Are you gonna return? Okay. It's evil. Yeah. He doesn't like what we're talking about. We have a possessed life. Oh, there you go. Um but he gives uh three different names. We'll get into that in shortly. Objects that is actually wild. He's given the great dragon, the ancient serpent, the devil, Satan. So actually four names.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah. Right there. Or and also his original name, depending on your translation, Lucifer.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Lucifer. Yeah. And you go on in Revelation. I think this is so cool. Um, you go on in Revelation, it says that when we Jesus comes back, he defeats Satan. We are sitting at that table with him, our big wedding banquet feast. What do many people believe we're we're eating at that feast? The Leviathan? They believe we're eating at the great dragon, you know, that that he's referred to. I just I love that imagery. I don't know how he's gonna taste, but it uh gotta be good. Yeah, it's gotta be good. But yeah, so that well, all that to show there is a spiritual realm, and demons are fallen angels who followed Satan. So they're still active, they're still active and apparent. Yeah, here's what I also hear in that on our side, we have over double the amount of angels than Satan has demons, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

And also, I'm man, I I wish I was better at chapter and verse. I think it's Matthew 10, but there is a reference to we have guardian angels as well. That whether each person is assigned an angel or there's guardian angels that watch over several people at a time, that's it's very real. Uh that that all the whole idea of a guardian angel is is very much possible.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah, and so what's the role of Satan's angels, his demons, is to help him carry out his mission of steal, kill, and destroy. Yeah. Because man was God's number one possession and creation. And Satan did not like that. Did not like that. And so that's why his whole mission is to come after us to steal, kill, and destroy us. Yeah. And that's what is the goal of his demons who are fallen angels.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, and whether he can destroy us or not, um, he's definitely going to try and disrupt us and cause all kinds of havoc and problems for us as best he can.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Uh yeah, and that's even a fascinating kind of why would Satan do that? The the whole idea, there's a lot of people that talk about the when God created humans and he gave man authority over the earth and the things of the earth, that there's some jealousy that took place in heaven with a lot of these high-ranking angels and going, those things are above us.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Really? That is over me. And there was kind of like, uh-uh. And then that kind of first rebellion took place because they didn't like the idea that God created humans and gave us the the amount of authority that we were given. Yeah. Uh, and even Paul talks about that. You will rule over angels or judge angels. That kind of conversation is just kind of like we don't think about that as us lowly humans. No, because I'm in our glorified state, it's a different story.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

And I think Satan, that's part of his like how ticked off he is about that. He has convinced us that angels are above us. Absolutely. And so we have a hard time even comprehending that no, God sees us as more precious than he does angels and thinks of us higher than them.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

And so it's actually an insult. You know, we kind of joke around about it, but it's true, it's actually an insult when you say, you know what, they are now an angel up there in heaven watching down after us. That's a good point. No, they're not greater than that. Yeah, we don't become angels. Good thing we don't become angels because we're actually greater than that.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Yeah, we actually, in when we're in our glorified state, we are very similar to Christ-like. Yeah. As best as we possibly can as being as close to Christ-like as possible. That glorified state is that's our whole purpose right now, is we're trying to be as Christ-like as possible, following his example in this present life, to then becoming fully glorified. We are very similar to Christ. Not the same, obviously, he is God and He is Almighty and He is all powerful, but there is a very similar resemblance of us in what we're going to appear like. So then you will start to see the level change, I would think, that we are going to be ranked higher than an angel. But right now in our current state, we think of angels as man, they they can how they can move, their intelligence, their power, their ability to do things is so far beyond what we can do as humans. But I think what we forget is that as a believer, the authority that we then have in Christ through his death, burial, and res burial, and resurrection, that is then given to us, his power through his Holy Spirit that lives in us. We are much greater and much more powerful than we realize. That's right. From what he has then given to us. So that goes far beyond anything an angel can do. That's right. Um, and we'll get into that authority maybe here in a minute. But yeah, I know I think that's a great point. It's hard to understand that. We don't feel like that in this current state.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

But I think that's a great point that you make. You know, yeah, it's not us as men, it's because we have the power of the Holy Spirit. We have God living inside of us. You know, that is why. Yep. Um, and being his child and doing so. Um so and you've got to, why don't I feel like I've got the power of God living? Anyway, so that's another conversation. But no doubt. And uh So here's the thing we're gonna be jumping into this, and I don't think as we talk about this, neither you or I are saying we have this all figured out. No, and I don't think any man can say that they have it all figured out. No, um it's complicated. It is. Uh but the Bible does talk about the spiritual realm a lot. And I would say as a pastor, preparing it does, but it doesn't explain it all either.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

And that's why we're very ill-prepared, all of us, uh, to know exactly how this works.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

But I think there is some facts that we can know. I there's some facts is like, you know what? I do know that there's a physical realm, and I know that there's a spiritual realm. I know that that is true. I know that there is light, and I know that there is darkness. I know that God is the and Jesus is the prince of light. I know Satan is the prince of darkness. And I also know that God and his army, they have angels. I know Satan and his team, they have demons, and they are both going, and demons are trying to still kill and destroy us, and God is trying to um protect us and provide salvation so that we can be in the light and we can also go to heaven. Yeah. And Satan is trying to keep us from getting there. I also believe this. I think many people in our culture discredit the spiritual realm. And so I would say like our job as pastors is to keep it in bringing it to light, of saying, hey, don't lose sight. This physical realm, just as Paul says in Ephesians, our fight is not against flesh and blood. Yeah, it's against the principalities of darkness. Of darkness, yeah. It it's against it's against the spiritual realm, but I don't think we uh pay attention to the spiritual realm enough.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah, and then in that, what I think he's also saying is when someone does something bad to you, it's almost like don't get mad at them because it's not them that's doing it. There's something there's a force behind them that's causing them to do that, and that's kind of kind of freaky.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Sometimes people are just stupid.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, there's a lot of that, absolutely, but especially but when it's evil, um, there is a force that is pushing that. And even he'll talk about that with Paul talks about with the false teachers of the Bible. There's this demonic that is causing them to do what they're preaching what they're preaching that is contrary to the gospel. Their false teaching is based on is a is the power of demons that are pushing that through the false teachers. They've been duped uh and they've been led astray. Yeah, and so there's this force behind all that, so that Paul's kind of saying, hey, it's like Jesus when he was on the crossing is they don't know what they're doing. Yeah, it's because they don't we don't understand how influenced we are, or people in general are by evil and how much it has control over us, or how little influence. I even joke about you know the old cartoons, the old Bugs Bunny cartoons, or whatever. The the idea of an angel on one shoulder and a demon on another, and they're whispering in your ear, which one are you listening to or are you following? It's kind of real like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Well, that's where Paul doesn't use angel and demon, he's talking about spirit flesh. That's that's what he means. He said, Hey, you got spirit on one shoulder, you got the flesh on the other.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Which one are you listening to? But the dumbed down version is a little devil and a little angel, yeah. And they're but they're at work, yeah, and they're opposing forces, and we are literally almost like being stretched or being pulled in two different directions. And it's we're in the middle of this battle. Yeah, we are smack in the middle of it, and so it's a fascinating thing. So that whole idea of hey, when someone does something, just understand it's not them, probably that's doing that as a human. They don't understand what's going on. Yeah, it's kind of a fascinating approach.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Well, and that's what like my encouragement as a pastor would be start paying attention. Yeah, like pay attention to the to the spiritual realm. And you know, I wouldn't call either one of us experts, but it's one of those things once you see it, you can't unsee it. And then you see the whole world in a whole new light of not just the physical realm, but the spiritual realm as well.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Um it's what you were saying, the the curtain will get peeled back, and you're like, oh, that's how this is working. Yeah, and then you start to see it uh play out in regular life.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

And you know, we talked about this in part one, you know, but you and your family history, it that was pulled back for you by by your grandpa.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yep. And that's all I know. Yeah. Uh as a kid growing up, I I only know the power and authority of Christ. Um, you know, we talk about spiritual gifts. Um, I don't know if that this led to my spiritual gift, but my spiritual gift, one of them is faith. I've just always believed that Jesus is for real and he is one bad dude in a good way. He is he is king and he is all powerful, and man, does he have some power. Uh, and I just experienced that um growing up with my grandpa and the ministry that was brought to him. He didn't seek it out, it came to him. Uh, and that's just the understanding that me and my family have as to who Christ is and his authority.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Go, you don't have to go into extreme detail, but share a little bit about his ministry.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Uh, he started out as he just went to seminary school and um graduated, and he started out as a traveling evangelist, kind of like a miniature bent Billy Graham. Uh, and this is back in the the 50s, and so he would go drive to a town and he would go rent a huge tent and set up a sign and say, Pastor Ernest Rockstatt is here to preach on this, come and see, and kind of thing. And he would fill a tent with people and kind of have a revival type setting and try and lead as many people to Jesus as he could. Uh, that then obviously evolved into being a pastor of a church up up north in Minnesota and Wisconsin, is where they were my family's from. And he had a very established church there, and then certain things started happening with some people within his congregation, and they came first to my grandma asking, and she started saying, Hey, you need help. And so he got gets called in to help. And as they go in to help, it's uh, oh my goodness, what did we just step into? And it was a kind of a scene that you would see in a movie, as my dad would describe it. And I'm just and he's he was describing he's 15 years old and stepping into the they had to go over to a house to help somebody. There's people there that were trying to pray for this young lady, things weren't working out, and they called him. You need to get over here, we need your help. He shows up, not knowing really what to expect or what to do. He just goes off of what he knows as a pastor, and um, yeah, faced with a demon and possessed girl. Um, and it was wild. And from there, people hear about that then and hear about how she was recovered from that, and more people would keep coming and keep asking, will you help us? To the point where there's people that um the family member would uh the would be put in an insane asylum type. We don't have those much anymore today, but back in the day we did. Um, and usually they were full. Um, where family would come to my grandpa and say, This is what the doctor said. Where they said, just forget about your family member, your brother or your sister. They're not, they're gone. And you just need to treat them as though they've died because they're gonna stay in that asylum. And they come to my grandpa and say, Will you help us? Because we don't believe that's the last, that's not the final story or answer to their life. And my grandpa's response would basically be, Yeah, I'll pray for them. Well, it's and I'm happy to counsel with them or talk with them. And from that, then through this prayer, he would start to unearth a demon possession of some kind or a demon influence of some kind. And from that, the battle was on, and it's crazy stuff. And it got to the point where uh it just happened so often, he started to uh audio record his counseling sessions with people, and and in the mid-50s, he started his organization called Faith and Life Ministries, and you can go to Faithandlife Ministries.com or to the app, and all there is a lot of his sermons that were recorded. He used to be on the radio up in Minnesota and Wisconsin, uh, but he would be invited to conferences in uh Chicago and different big cities, and he would record his uh teachings at the conferences and all that stuff is on the website, and then also he has a little bit of a couple little documentaries um and then a lot of teaching on spiritual warfare.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And we're not talking about a Catholic priest, uh no, not at all.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

He's very much he was Baptist himself, um, and uh they called him a conservative Baptist.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Um, but because all the movies you see, it's always Catholic.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I know we have even listened to a podcast about where a Catholic priest that was a that is an exorcist for the Catholic Church is interviewed, and he talked about how a lot of Protestant preachers, when they get lost, they show up on our doorsteps. I promise you, my grandpa did not show up on the doorstep of the Catholic Church asking for help. Well, I promise that. Um, he you go listen to these audio recordings, and um, there's a lot you can learn. Um, and the biggest thing that I would always learn from those listening to these deals, just hearing that, and then just growing up in the family, is the authority and the power of the name of Jesus Christ, or the power of the the cross, or the victory of the cross. Man, that was defining for me as a kid growing up. I just I always knew Christ's king and he has all authority. And you, if you haven't struggles in your life, you need to claim that through the power of Christ in your life, and that's just how I've always lived and understood. Doesn't make me immune, it might even put a bigger target on my back. Yeah, um, but and I can give examples of just our family in general of what my grandpa came across, but um it does change the what you're the position you're fighting from. Yeah, the whole idea of fighting from victory, not for victory. That is a huge deal. And so when you're running into things and we'll probably start digging into the various parts of your lives, yeah, that you need to claim the power and authority of Christ in, it's pretty much every single stinking part of your life, yeah. Everything in your life, you need to claim the the authority of Christ in it. Um, and it's it's wild stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Yeah, and there's a few things there, like your grandpa just hearing the stories and listening to some of the recordings and whatnot. The level of authority he spoke with. And and yes, there he was claiming the authority of the name of Christ, but he was also confident in that name. Oh my god. He he believed the power behind it, but he also knew he had been made clean because as we talked about, the demons are gonna try to play mind games with you if you're there to do it. And he didn't let them play any of those mind games. He he knew he knew their agenda, but he also knew that he had been set free.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Yeah, he he would have literally be having a conversation with a possessed person that he's speaking to a demon, and his if he didn't get the answer he was looking for, he goes, Do I not have authority through Christ over you? Yeah, and then he would even say, and he would name the person's name that is possessed, aren't they your conqueror in Christ? And that and the oh the the demon hated having to admit that. Yeah, and they're just like, Yes, they are. I mean, they man, I tell you what, you listen to these, if they're acting, they need an award. Uh, because it is wow. Um, but it's the fascinating thing is that he would put that, he would lay that on them. Do I not have authority over you in Christ Jesus? And they'd have to admit to yes. And he says, Then you need to answer my question. Yeah. And the same thing, does not so and so. Aren't they are they are aren't are they not your conqueror through Christ? And you're just like, you think about that, the I am their conqueror through Christ. That is just a I I've never conquered anything, you know, but I'm a conqueror. Yeah, it's fascinating the authority and the power that comes in. And we sing about it then the power of Christ, the name of Jesus. Um, you have no idea how amazingly powerful He is. It's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, so you have your experience, and we're we're gonna dive.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

And even just as a kid growing up, that um my you know, if I can give my very first example, um, and this is one of the biggest problems that people are gonna face is the occult activity. It allows Satan in. Uh, I'm in fifth grade. Uh, a friend of mine is we're you know hanging out before school starts, and he starts talking about playing this game that he and some neighborhood kids are playing, and this game, they can it moves this thing and it spells things out, they can ask it questions, it answers it, and they can make it like slam doors and do things in the house. Well, they're playing with the Ouija board. And I had I'd heard about that. So I that at night I go home or after school, I tell my dad about it, and he's like, Hey that's not good. We need to pray for your friend. And so that night my dad and I we prayed for my friend, and literally the prayer was Lord, we just pray that the game doesn't work anymore. And through an intercessory prayer, we even casted out any evil that might be at work through that game and influencing my friend. And so we pray that prayer together. I go back to school the next morning, and again, before school starts, hey man, so did you guys play with that game last night? No, it quit working. I'm like, did it? Yeah, how about that? And for me, I learned a lot of things in that moment. I can pray on the behalf of somebody, yeah, and I can claim authority for them. Yeah, and I knew he was a Catholic believer, but he was still a believer in Jesus. Um, I was able to do that for him through the power of Christ. And the thing quit working, so they gave up on it. Yeah, and that was the win. He's not playing that game anymore, which that is an entry point, doing things like that. People don't think that's any big deal doing these witchcraft type things. Yeah, but that was a big deal. And that for an early age, even in fifth grade, I'm nine-ish. Um, that was one of those I've heard about all this, I've seen it with my grandpa, my dad's talked about it, his experience. I just got to experience one firsthand now.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, and so even like little things as we talk about how do demons work, Satan's job and what he's doing with his demons is the same thing that Jesus is trying to get us to do. Satan just wants us to say yes to him instead of Jesus. Yeah. And so he's just putting these little things in our life. Oh, you say yes to that.

unknown 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Hey, you walk past that kenny bar, say yes. Hey, what you want to steal that kenny bar? Say yes to that. Hey, play with that Ouija board, say yes to that. Uh just tell a little white lie. Just tell a little white lie, say yes to that. And that's how the kid wiggles himself in until you say yes to something where you invite him in.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Yeah, and it's slow and steady, and almost every time you don't realize it. Yeah. And before it's kind of too late, not too late, but things are really bad are happening. Yeah. Um, and yes, he is the master of disguise. And he is the master of just we that we called it, we'd always say he'll needle his way in. So a needle is just a tiny little thread that gets woven in.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

And you may not even notice it at first, or for a very long time until just other people start noticing strange behaviors, or you're acting different, or you're talking different, or you're lying, or you're doing these weird uh things that is not is against your normal character. Right. And it's usually other people that notice it first. Yeah. And then you're obviously saying, No, I'm not, and you get maybe you get mad, or you get self-defensive. And it's fascinating how evil works. It is very, you don't, they they're under disguise and they don't want you to realize it.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Yeah, well, and that's what like the crazy part is. I think part of today's culture is so many Christians ignore it. And I think that's a tactic of Satan to saying, hey, if you don't believe I exist, if you don't believe my demons are at work, perfect, then great. I have you right where I want you. If you don't believe I'm a threat, that is great. Because then we're gonna surprise you. You know, we we can get you that way. Um, that's what why people who have experienced, I'm telling you, it's like it really is going like you can't convince them otherwise that there is not a spiritual realm, that there is not something going on. Yeah, and so, but why do people have so hard time? I think because of Hollywood, I think what they've seen in movies has dramatized a lot of it. I'm not saying like none of it is real, but they take truths of what some of these stories are about demon possession, and they have made a Hollywood. They're calling up ceilings and yeah, and so you know, people have Hollywood, and that's the what picture that they have. They don't understand it, so they just be like, you know what, it it's not right in front of me, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna believe it. Um it's just out of sight, out of mind type of deal. Um, and some people just think it's weird. And so because it's weird, they don't want to talk about it or anything. And so I think that's what society has kind of But again, people have it has an experience. And so for me, it's my dad. And I shared his story.

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Yeah, that's a great example.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

And you know, my dad, he was somebody, he is never a, and I think I went into this last time we talked about it. So the quick highlight is, you know, my dad, he went into, you know, he was having like seizure-like symptoms, went to the ER. Didn't understand what was going on. They didn't understand what was going on, ended up having a blood clot on his neck. They needed to life flight him to Springfield, but he goes out before they get him on the helicopter. And I mean, um, from his perspective, he goes black, things go black, and when he opens his eyes, he's standing in a barren concrete wasteland, and it's just him and this other guy wearing blue jeans of flannel and slick blacked hair. And he said, I knew exactly who it was. It was Satan. We were there to fight.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

And for my dad, it's it all happened in a blink of an eye.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

But pause. He had never seen him before, no, never experienced him before, but he knew exactly who it was. Exactly who it was. And it's the same thing on the flip side with Jesus. Yeah. You know exactly who Jesus was. If you were to be in that same different realm, or you're gonna know exactly there's something inside of us that is designed that we know who they are.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, and so what I believe happened is my dad, the curtain was peeled back. Yeah, he he got to see the battle going on for his life in the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

I also like this the he's in a dark, he's in a desolate place. That is exactly what the where the Bible talks about, where Satan's realm is in the wilderness or in the desolate, the desert type area. That's his realm.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

And if you were talking to my dad, it's so vivid to him. Yeah. Like, you know, he could feel it, he can smell it, you know, he can touch it, like all the senses. He it's all right there. So, but for my dad, it all happened in a blink of an eye. Him and Satan ran after each other, they start fighting, and in no time, Satan was a brave dude. Yeah. Dumb dude. Maybe dumb. Uh I'm not Satan. He thought he had control. Like, and so, but Satan, they take off, they run and tackle each other, and he says, and it's in no time, he realized Satan's just playing with him, and Satan's on top of him, you know, choking him out, choking him out and saying, Submit to me, and all this will be over. And you know, now thinking about all this is like, okay, what if my dad would have said yes? Oof, yeesh, what does that look like? Right, because I'll tell you what was going on in the real world, like in the physical world, I would say, while my dad was experiencing this in the spiritual realm, is my dad was doing things my dad would never do. Out of character. Out of character, you know, I mean, blatantly bad things that were going on. And we knew it was not my dad, you know. From and you tell him, hey, did you know what? Yeah, he had no idea, you know, things he would, you know, do the nurses, things that he would, you know, show whatever. And even, you know, at one point he he even said he was with Satan, and then he wrote because he couldn't talk, he was writing it out. It wasn't his handwriting. I mean, just the weirdest things. Yeah. And I always go back, I'm like, I wonder if my dad would have just took the easy way out and said yes. Yeah. What that would have looked like in the the physical realm that we were seeing.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

And how his life would have been afterwards. Right. Man, that's a scary thought.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

And then I think about how many people have been at that moment and have said yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

But I'll add it's not too late. It's not too late. But still, that's you know, but it's scary to think about. And so as it's going on with my dad there, you know, he hears, you know, somebody say, Hey, would you like some help? You want to breathe. Yeah. And now my dad's no longer in the spiritual realm, he's in the physical realm, and he looks to the next to him in the bed. There's a black guy with a stocking cap and a gray beard saying, Hey, if you want to breathe, this is what you need to do. Name Grady, this is what you need to do. We later on name him Grady because that's the only way my dad could expect. Could describe him, yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, talk about angels showing up. We believe that was the case because he got the full-on experience.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yeah, because you know, my daddy.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

As he comes back too, he tells my mom, hey, that man over there saved my life. And my mom's like, What are you talking about? They're in the ICU, it was the only bed in there. Yeah, and of course, my dad, he was never one he doesn't believe in fairy tales. He doesn't, you know, he would never talk about the abstract or anything like that. It's everything. His job is kind of black and white, right? You know, and so for my dad to talk about this, yeah, I think that brings some weight to it, you know, for me and my family and uh him sharing his story. But the biggest weight that happened was my grandpa. And so my my dad's actual dad from Oklahoma. Yeah, this is where the story gets crazy, and you know, you have to know. And that is uh, so my dad, he's of course, as everybody that comes in, he's telling them this story. You know, in and the whole time he's going through this over the three days, you know, we're in the chapel, we're praying every day. You know, I can't sleep at night, so I'm sleeping in the chapel, just praying on my dad's behalf because we don't know if he's gonna live or not, we don't know if he's gonna survive. And then he wakes up and he could care less about all that. He wants to tell everybody about him fighting Satan and this guy named Grady, this angel saving his life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

And telling him what just do this, and we're gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

And he tells my my grandma and my my dad's dad from Oklahoma this story, and my dad's my grandpa, his face just goes pale. Yeah. And he starts asking questions like details. I need to know what this guy looks like. You have to tell me. And that's when my dad came up with the name Grady, because he couldn't describe in detail. Finally, a couple days later, grandpa's about to go back to Oklahoma. He's like, Larry, I have to know what exactly this guy looked like. And my dad's like, I've shared everything I can with you on what he looks like. Why? And my grandpa, who definitely did not talk about this stuff, I'd never heard him talk about faith before this moment, said, Because that night when you woke up, right before we were heading to our hotel room, and as we got on the elevator, we get on the elevator at 2 a.m. And there's one guy on the elevator, and it's a black guy with a stocking cap and a scraggly beard. He asked us what we were doing there, and we tell him what's going on with you. And as we were walking out to the parking lot, he looks at us and says, Hey, I do some work around this hospital.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

I love that part.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Your son's gonna be okay. Yeah, and then they turned around and tell him thank you. He was gone. Less than an hour later, my dad wakes up for the first time in three days.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Telling that story. So, like, I was like, You cannot tell me that there's not a battle of angels and demons going on in this world. And it's one of those things, once you know, once you know, once you know, and you see it, you're like, Yeah, it's going on.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

I love how great Grady downplays. Yeah, I do a little work on that. I do a little work. I love that part. Yeah, and just it's he minimizes what he's doing on his side of things. And you imagine how many other people are probably battling the same thing, they don't understand it.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Uh, but so, and I don't know if I'm jumping ahead on us, Luke. Would you say that at that time your dad was a believer? Yeah, I would. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

My dad would too.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

So why would that happen to him? Or how could that happen to him as a believer?

SPEAKER_01 50:43

Yeah, because I think there's a common misconception going on that if you are a follower of Christ, then you can't be possessed by a demon demon. Yeah. And so that's my question back to you. Is Jordan, can you be a Christian and possessed by a demon?

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Um, I'm going to firmly say yes. I believe so. Uh now, obviously, not everybody believes that. And I know if Roger was here, he would disagree and he has his reasons and they're all valid, you know. Yeah. Uh, but um, yes, absolutely. Based on the experience uh that my grandpa had and the people that he counseled, almost all of them were proclaiming Christ as their Lord and Savior, their love of Christ, however something happened, and they were there needing help, and he was there to help. And that's the fascinating thing for him, and then that's a lot of questions people ask. No, it's not possible for a Christian, how can the Holy Spirit and evil live in the same body together?

SPEAKER_01 51:39

I think that's what they go to is if it the Holy Spirit, if that is the temple of the Holy Spirit, how is Satan allowed to be or demon allowed to be with the Holy Spirit in the same temple?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

It's a great question, and it's a difficult one to answer. The Bible isn't cut and dry, very clear on the matter. Um, and that's where for me, and I just kind of this is my how I live, how it has been for me in life, is that the Bible is, I jokingly give it, and I've heard this a long time ago, it's an acronym for basic instructions before leaving Earth. It cannot cover everything, it's impossible. There's so much going on. I mean, it's I think it's at the end of John's gospel. He says, if we were to have recorded everything Jesus did, we'd fill the earth with books. There's so much, it's not possible to have it all spelled out in one, technically one book or a collection of books. And so there's a point of you know the basics, the basic instructions, and now your experience is going to play out. And how much of our lives is that way with regards to our jobs?

SPEAKER_03 52:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

We learn a little bit, and then you go and really learn a lot by doing and living it out and getting the work experience where the rubber meets the road. It's been that way for me in college and my business experience. There was very little business school that I actually applied to my business job. Uh, there was a little bit, but not a whole lot. There was just some basics. Uh, and you figured out what to do in the moment of experience. You had to figure it out. It's the same thing here, and that's what my grandpa ran into. Uh, where missionaries from around the world, pastors from around the country would call him and say, Hey, uh, I have someone in my church that is a believer and they're experiencing XYZ. Uh, they didn't teach us this. They literally say this. We did they did not teach us how to deal with this in seminary school. I've heard you have some experience. Can you help me? And my grandpa would be, absolutely. And so tell me about what's going on. And multiple hour-long conversations over the phone, because this is way back in the day, there was no email or internet uh or FaceTime. And so long late-night conversations over a telephone with numerous people from around the world uh calling him and asking him, What do I do? Because I I don't know what to do. And they're pastors who should have been known, should have known what to do or been trained in the situation because the Bible still talks about people being possessed by demons. It's just, well, were they a believer or not? I don't know. I wasn't there. We don't know the person personally. There's some of the people that we can kind of wonder that very well could have been someone that was a father of Jesus and they're possessed by a demon, and he cleanses them of it. Um, but I just I put into practice the whole it's experience. Yeah, it says yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

Because what the Bible says, the Bible does not say the Holy Spirit and a demon can cohabit a person. Also says it can't. It all doesn't not say that. Doesn't say it can't. It doesn't not say that either. You know, and so it doesn't say either way. Yeah. I think we do we infer a lot of that because it says, Jesus explains, how can Bezebel cast out Bezebel, uh, a house divided against each other will not stand. And I think we take that text and we apply it to this situation. If you are a temple of the Holy Spirit, a house of God, then the house cannot be divided and it be a residence for both a demon and the Holy Spirit. So how would you respond to something like that?

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Uh we can go down to the basics of if I have the Holy Spirit living in me, why do I still sin? Or if I have the Holy Spirit living in me, why do I still uh have certain addictions? And I'm whether I have addictions or not, I'm just saying this in general. Why do I still fall back into the same old ways of my older days? Or I do things I know aren't right. Why do I still do that? If the Holy Spirit, God is living in me, why do I still fall back? Or why do I still stumble? Why do I still have cravings for things? And I'm speaking in general terms for anybody. We all we're none of us are still perfect, nobody has achieved sinless perfection. So then where are those things coming from? Um, and one of the things my grandpa would describe is that as humans, we're very dynamic. Uh we are mind, body, and soul. And what he would talk about is your soul is saved, you know where your soul is going. And obviously that's where I think the Holy Spirit resides. Now that sometimes the soul is associated to the heart. There is no organ in your body called a soul that doctors can go a pinpoint and go, hey, we gotta go fix your soul, or we gotta uh you gotta puncture in your soul. No, there's no organ in your body called the soul, there's just something in you that is the soul. I do believe that's where the Holy Spirit is, but however, there is still a fleshly body around that soul, and there is a very dynamic mind. Uh, one of the things my grandpa uh was written about in a call, it's called the Handbook on Spiritual Warfare. It's a very thick book, and this doctor goes and interviews several different people. Uh my grandpa was one of them, and this is probably 70s or 80s, when he gets interviewed about multiple personality disorders. Um, and there's a unique thing that happens when a tragedy happens, of something bad happens to someone, uh tragic experience can cause a personality split within the mind. And he likened it to like if something hit a piece of glass and it shattered. Well, that's kind of what happens in your brain. And what my grandpa was finding with people is that each personality had to be reunited with Christ. Each personality had to be introduced to Christ. We're in the same person, he's counseling, he just led them to the Lord the day before, and then this each day was a new day because it would be kind of a new personality that would be kind of up, and he'd be like, Wait a second, we just talked about this yesterday. And they're like, Who is this Jesus you talk about? Well, let me tell you about him, okay? And he started to catch on, and in this book that he's interviewing, he says, and we're at 175 personalities and counting, and you're just like, Oh my goodness, well, how is that possible? Yeah, it's just again, it's this idea how dynamic we are as people, especially our brains are incredibly dynamic that we can't figure out. Uh, so and then same thing with the body, that's still fleshly. Our body is we're trying to take off this old flesh. Paul talks about that constantly throughout his letters and putting on the the new self, which is renewed in Christ and a new mind, a healing of your mind. He talks about the new self and the healing of your mind, and it's a process, yeah. It takes time, and it's a lot of work that we have to be diligent about day in and day out.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Yeah, and on all that note, I think we see in Job, the Lord gives Satan permission to come after parts of us, but not all of us. And so, how can you have the Holy Spirit in God inside of you and yet still be tempted, tormented, um, possessed? Can't both completely take you out though. Yeah, but he because what he does not have power over is your salvation part, right? Because that rests in God's hands. That's right. And so he may have the freedom to attack your body, he may have the freedom to attack other your mind and other parts of you, but he does not have the freedom to attack your salvation, your security of salvation. Yeah, and I think God makes that very clear throughout scripture. I'd say add it on to your point. Um, and this is I will confess, this is like new stuff to me diving into that possibility for a Christian to go to. As you said, asked, was my dad a Christian when he was going through all this? Yes. Do I believe my dad was possessed? No. I I don't. I think was he being tormented? Was he um fighting against it? Absolutely, and we were getting to see that come out into the physical. Could he have been possessed? Maybe I don't know how all that works.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Well, but I'll even ask you when he was doing things that was out of his character, did it appear that he was awake and coherent and could have conversations?

SPEAKER_01 59:28

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

But he was like, I don't know what you're talking about. No, I didn't do that stuff, but you did. I saw you, mom experienced whatever. Again, out of character type things that he did not even know he did. Right. So it still begs the question. I'm not trying to say your dad was possessed, but those are kind of signs of serious what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

And that's like a terminology thing, it's like, you know, what's the difference between being tormented and possessed? Doing something out of your own control. You know, different things like that. And that I great, great question. And so, but this is what I do know what the Bible says. And this is what I always go back to, where the Bible is not like black and white, this or that. I always go back to what it does say. And what we do know is that Paul gives us an explicit warning in Ephesians chapter six. Yep. And he tells us our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against the spiritual principalities of darkness, spiritual forces of darkness, yeah. And to put on the armor of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Yeah, so he's not telling unbelievers to put on the armor of God. He's telling believers.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

And why by the way, he's talking to the Church of Ephesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah. What is going on? A lot of spiritual stuff going on there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

A lot of fake religions. And if we go to Galatians chapter one, what does he say? Hey, others will come in my name. Yeah. Those do not believe those, and he calls them demons, even though they appear as angels that are starting these false religions.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah, there's a lot of magic going on in Ephesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

And a lot of that's going on in Ephesus. And he says, Hey guys, by the way, I know you're believers, put on the armor of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Yeah. And he's telling that. And what does he tell to protect you from what? The fiery darts of the devil that he was going to sling at you. Yeah. Can you I don't know, I just imagine that for that Satan is shooting fiery darts at us. And what are these fiery darts? Are these uh just things to get you to do? Are they ways to hurt you? I mean, there's so many things that that could be of what these fiery darts are. And he's shooting those at you as a believer. And Paul says you need to put on armor to protect yourself from these things. He's not telling that to unbelievers.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

You know, the biggest thing that came out to me in my study of all this Satan's not worried about the unbelievers. He's already got them. He's already got them. Yeah. So why, like, yeah, he can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Well, he wants to go after God's prized possession, his people.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Yeah, he wants to go after his people.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

So he is more concerned about us as believers than he is the unbelievers. Yeah. Now he's still going after the unbelievers because he wants to put them there. Keep them there. But he is more than. And my dad, when he shares his testimony, he used this quote the devil either has you or he's after you. Yeah, absolutely. And so, like, that's why he says put on the armor of God. Yeah. Not for the physical things that we see. He's talking about the spiritual realm. Yeah. And so, why would he tell us that if it's not possible?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

That's right. Why is he telling that to believers if it's not possible? And really, even a quick little side note, when you were talking about the unbelievers, uh, a really good book to read, I think it's C.S. Lewis, The Screw Tape Letters. Oh my goodness, screw tape is the name of a demon. And it's these letters of a demon to his superiors saying about his job of going and keeping people from being saved. And then when one of those people happens to get saved, oh no, he's in big trouble. Yeah. You know, that's their job. And it's C.S. Lewis plays that out in these stories. And even though screw tape's letters were used for a movie that recently came out that you can see on Amazon uh called Nefarious, and how evil operates and how they go after anybody and everybody, it starts at a very early age. Yeah. But, anyways, it what Paul is talking about isn't for unbelievers, it is for believers. So it's that's where I go back to. It's like, well, if we can't be at a minimum heavily influenced, or again, these fiery darts that are being shot us at us, what is the purpose of that? I mean, I don't feel getting hit by a fiery dart, so I don't feel pain. So it must be something else that Satan is trying to do with these fiery darts. If there's something that can't happen to us, then why would Paul even talk about that? Tell us about the armor of God. Right. There would be no reason. And the armor, although it is called armor, you think about what the all the different parts of the armor represent. It's fascinating. It's not your typical um, you know, just it's made of iron to protect you from the sword. No, I mean the breastplate of righteousness, the belt of truth. Um, you know, your feet are the gospel of peace. Well, your feet take you, so you need to take the gospel, the helmet of salvation that protects your mind. You know, it's just these fascinating what they represent, and that's how you fight back evil. It's through salvation and righteousness and taking the gospel and the sword of the spirit and the shield of faith. It's just crazy. Again, the way God sees things and the way God offers it completely different how we work here on earth, but it's fascinating what he uses to combat evil.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:10

But even like, so as you mentioned, the armor of God. I'd love to talk to your grandpa because I would say, as he would go into these moments and he's talking to the people who are possessed, what was his when the demon would try to come after him, what would he use? His shield of faith. Yeah, absolutely. How would authority in Christ? How would he get after him through the word of God through the word of God, the sword of the spirit, right? He could use scripture, right? But he also had to have a firm understanding, absolutely, and wearing the helmet of salvation, understanding nothing that this guy says is gonna mess with my salvation. Like I I I got a firm grasp on that, and so it really does play out and guarding your heart with the breastplate of righteousness, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Yeah, absolutely. It's just fascinating how it works again. Uh there was something you said in there that made me think of it, but now it it escaped me just oh darn it. I wish I could remember what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Well, there was a few more notes I made about like as we're understanding, okay, can a Christian be possessed? And like you're saying, yeah, you believe so. I do believe so. Yeah, and you know, the more I study it, I'm more leaning towards that, absolutely, um, for all those reasons that we had just mentioned. But here's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

Oh, I know I was gonna say. Sorry to interrupt. Oh, you're good. Uh you can actually go hear what he says about the armor of God. He has a nine or ten part series on the armor of God. And that and then you add that, he has he literally has over 70 sermons on the book of Ephesians. That's incredible. When you add the Armor of God series in with his Ephesians series, it's over. I mean, this is a six-chapter book that he has over 70 sermons on. He breaks it down. Yeah. But the really good ones because he folds in a lot of the spiritual warfare in with the Armor of God series.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

Um, what he has in your free time, you just need to take some of his conversations with these demons that he has recorded and turn that into a podcast. I think you would have yeah, that would be a hit.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Well, I was listening to uh just we thought we were gonna do this last week, possibly. So I was uh brushing up and listening to he kinds of has this little documentary that he's created. Uh it's called Dealing with Demons. And in one person, I want to just rattle off some names of demons that he came across. Do you want me to save that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

No, yeah, save that because I'm going to go into that in just a second. Okay, I'll say that. But I want to continue on. Can Christians be possessed? Kind of like going into that. And how I'm now leaning more towards yes. I do want to say this. Like, again, all we are doing is taken from what we know based off of what we read in scripture and what we know people have experienced, is how as how we're getting there. What I would say is, what do we have to lose to believe that Christians can be possessed?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

Excellent point. And I think I would almost just go ahead and just assume it to protect yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

Right. And so because if you believe it, then man, that should change your prayer life. That should change how you pray, the authority in which you pray.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

But also, it shouldn't be like, oh man, it shouldn't cause you to live in fear either. It's actually something that gives you, should still bring you hope and peace because, as you said, you're fighting from victory and not for it. That's right. And so it's actually almost a compliment because of how strong our faith is that Satan, that we I was about to say the word my grandma would not have liked, ticked him off, ticked him off enough that he wants to come after us and try to possess us. Yeah. And so it should also just be an honor that that that's the case. So I wanted to make that note. But again, if Christians can't be possessed, why would Paul talk so much about strongholds and not giving the enemy a foothold? Because, you know, I think there's a difference between sin and strongholds in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

And you know, as we we talk about sin, that can be a one-off. Yeah. That can be something that's a good thing. You just stumbled and messed up. Yeah. But when something becomes a stronghold, yes, that is when it has power over you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Yeah, and we even hear when people accept Christ, there's strongholds that come down immediately, just by accepting Christ into their life. They talk to that's a lot of addiction things of it. Alcohol or drugs, immediately gone, or pornography, immediately gone. Just by accepting Christ into their life. And how many conversations do we have with people? Like, no, it's like literally like a voice calling me to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:01

Oh, calling them back to it. Calling me back to that addiction. Yeah. Or I I I can't control myself. I have to do it. Yeah. You know, where do you think that's coming from? I would say that moves from a sin to a stronghold. Yeah. Right. And when it becomes a stronghold, I would say there's something demonic about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

If I can't re I can't resist this, I it just has a hold of me. Yeah. Those are terms, and you gotta listen to those those feelings and terms and go, uh-oh, I've got a problem. Yeah. And it's not just the world, I've got it, I gotta take down this stronghold, which is being propped up probably by something evil.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

And that's how I think you can see people who've been addicted to something and then immediately stop, like a Danny Gibbs. How did he go from being addicted to never touching it again? It's because that demon, that evil spirit, that stronghold got torn down. Got torn down. All by the power of Christ. All by the power of Christ.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

And the victory on the cross. Right, and so it is awesome. Well, so then a Danny is like, oh my goodness. Yeah, I just experienced something very powerful in my life. And he lives for it now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

So and so this would be my final um thing to people who say, Well, there's no dual residency. You have the Holy Spirit, right? That's his residence. Why how can a demon also be welcome here? Well, that's also why Jesus and Paul talk so much about don't give the enemy a foothold. Don't give him a foothold. What that means is, yeah, yeah, that's the Holy Spirit's residence, but there's sometimes we go and we open our front door and we give the enemy a foothold in that. Absolutely. Yeah. We watch, we watch certain things, we listen to certain things. You know, we we get into things, we say yes to things we never do. What you're doing in the spiritual realm is opening up the residency of the Holy Spirit. You're opening up that front door to allow Satan in. And just have to crack it open just a little bit. Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:47

Think about how when you crack the door open on a windy day, how much breeze can come through just by just barely cracking the door or cracking a window. Yeah. It's the same thing. Um, yeah, it's uh it's very fascinating. And when you think about all the things we do in our lives that are probably, when you really start to look at it, yeah, I don't think Jesus, if I was, if Jesus was in the room with me right now, we wouldn't be doing this. Right. We wouldn't be watching that, we probably wouldn't be listening to that, wouldn't be talking that way, we wouldn't be having this conversation. You think about all the different things you do in a given day that if Jesus was right there sitting with you, you'd be embarrassed to do that with him in the in the same, if he was visible and present, you'd be like, yeah, I probably shouldn't do that. You think about all those little things every single day, all day long. To me, those are the cracks of the door or the crack of the window, just letting it open. You may shut it back, I don't know, but you just it's so there's just so much, and that's where it's like you can't help but think that we are at a minimum heavily influenced because of all these things. We are in a world of sin. We are in the deep end part of the pool of sin. We're swimming in it all day, every day. We live in darkness.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Yeah, it's gonna get on us. That's right. So this is where I want to like close, like so. Can Christians be possessed? I want to give action step to this. I don't think you have any, it doesn't hurt you to believe that it can happen. I think it actually helps you because then it's gonna change how you do things. But if you don't believe it, you at least have to be able to say, Yes, we can be tormented. They can at least come after us. Or influenced. And influenced. Yeah. But in both of those situations, I want to say it should provide you encouragement because that means you are in the fight. That means you are doing something right. Yeah. Um, and so I don't know. It's a great question. Um, I don't know. Now going from there, uh, I want to kind of talk about as we get into specific functions of it, um, because we know that demons are real, we know that they possess, we know what their job is to do is to kill, still, and destroy. So, how do they do those different things? First, I want to talk about different types of possessions and then kind of get into the function, like the and and the names that you were talking about. And so in the study, uh, add to these, explain, explain them, pause me as I go through. But in the different studies, um, you know, I got this from the Catholic priest that he was on the Sean Ryan show. Yeah, he mentioned five.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:02

Fascinating interview.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:03

Yeah, he he he mentioned five different, and I think um throughout history and even in the Bible, we'll see that this happens. And you so the first one he talks about is houses and locations that demons can actually attach themselves and infest places um where evil acts have occurred or occult activity has taken place in that in that location or that house. Um, I also heard and studied something that said that just as there's angels to like different regions throughout the world, as we talked about earlier, um, there's also demons assigned to different areas, like different places and locations. So houses and locations um can infest places. Number two, inanimate objects. So uh specifically objects that have been cursed or used in occult rituals or otherwise spiritually um compromised type deals. Um third thing, and we see this uh is animals. Um, as referenced in scripture, the demons, the legion of demons when Jesus cast them out. What do they say? Hey, yeah, they go into pigs. Get send me into those pigs, um, and so they can enter the city. What do they do?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

They immediately go and destroy themselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:05

Yeah, they jump into the sea. But what many scholars, as you study that more, that goes back to specific locations, they didn't want to leave that location.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:14

And so um animals. The number four, uh human bodies partially, so they they can possess humans on a partial level. Um, they can possess specific part of the body, exercising control over it without taking full, perfect possession of the individual. Um, and so you know, whether this is of our mind or a specific action or specific stronghold, but there's partial possession. And then the fifth one is also human bodies again, but this time it's perfect perfect uh possession. So and this is more rare apparently, yeah. Uh, but demons can take complete control over a person's entire body and actions when the person has given themselves over entirely to the to the demon.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:54

Yeah, I'd agree with all those. Yeah. Um, and even in all those, I think my grandpa did probably I don't you know, I don't think he ever went to people's houses and cleansed their houses, like say the the Catholics type do, but uh he would definitely encourage you pray over your house. Yeah, um same thing. Um, like I was always taught, hey, when you whatever you get, especially like a vehicle, a car, or your house, you always give it to God because it's his technically, but you dedicate it, you're like, God, this is yours. Yeah, if there's anything attached to it, I'm breaking that curse right now in the name of Christ Jesus, and this is yours, and this is your vehicle, this is your house. Only you and your Holy Spirit are allowed to have any say in these things. Yeah, we I that's I believe that I I prayed that the other day. Uh and and so I constantly pray that over my house. Yeah, um, and that the only spirit that is allowed in my house is the Holy Spirit. That's right. All the others, you gotta go. Yeah. Um, I pray a hedge of protection over my family. That's straight out of Job, too. Right. And because Satan, when he's talking to God, he says, Well, I can't go and touch him because your hedge of protection is upon him. Okay, well, then I'm asking for God's hedge of protection to be upon me. So and the idea of this hedge was a a very thick um growth of thorns and bushes and trees and all different types of things where no predator could get through it to protect the flock of sheep or whatever. It's the same thing. It's this dome of protection that God can put over you to protect you. I pray for that every day and every night.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

Well, I think that's a bit great. Actually, well, you know how many times throughout scripture, especially the Old Testament, you know, what'd they do when they're in Egypt? They had to put the lamb's blood over their doorpost. Yeah. And that protected them. And that protected them. We, you know, we see it through other instances. And so I'm not, please do not go kill the neighborhood dog and uh put it over your doorpost. They're gonna call HOA, you're gonna get in trouble. Yeah, yeah. Don't even kill a lamb and put it over your doorpost. You're gonna get in trouble if you do that. But here's what you can do because now we have the Holy Spirit because the Lamb of God have come. You can walk around your house and pray over. And you know, and that's something he talked about. He said he'll go over into the house and he'll pray over every square inch. Like he'll go over and pray over every room, every closet to make sure that the demon or the evil spirit, whatever, has no power in that household anymore.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:12

Well, and even the then you move to the objects. Um stories of people that went on a trip or missionaries that brought brought something back from another country that they got while they were there, and then strange things started happening. It's again things, it's a weird thing. I you know, we see this in Hollywood and some of the movies. What makes Holly the some of these movies so good is there's an element of truth in it. Yeah, then they sensationalize, obviously, and go over the top, but there's an element of truth. It's like a joke. What makes a joke funny is there's an element of truth to it. It's kind of the similar in all this that yeah, uh, they have a lot of ability to do things and power to do things. So, yeah, I'd agree. They can attach to things. Yeah. Um, and they attach to people, they attach to objects. And so, what was their your third thing? Uh animals, which we talked about. I'm not sure all my animals are possessed. I don't know, but it seems that because they like to throw up all over our house, I think. But no, I don't know. Yeah, but they possessed uh ha the pigs in the Bible, yeah. So I mean it's possible.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:09

That's I mean, going all the way back to the garden, the serpent. Serpent, yeah. You know, and so yeah, that one's obvious, don't really know what to say about that. I don't know either.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:17

Unless um I'm trying to think of what kind of animal squirrels are probably possessed. I don't know, they're crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:22

If we go into insects, there's like yeah, most of those are demonic.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:26

I always think of a snake as I don't I know there's supposedly these good snakes, and I'm like, uh no, the only good snake is a dead snake. So I I always think of snakes as evil.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Jaden actually he does not mind snakes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:37

No, if I have a snake reptile, I'm not sure. If I have a snake problem, I call Jaden. He comes and takes care of me to remember that. Yeah. Um, the next one was partial uh human bodies, a partial possession.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:48

Yeah, and that one is um that's kind of fascinating. It's hard to give an example of that, but uh just from the experience about my grandpa had, the these demons would come and go. Yeah. Um they weren't always 100% of the time possessed, but um sometimes uh it the possession was involved in a what we would call spiritual gift, like speaking in tongues. Uh many times that was not of the Holy Spirit. Done inappropriately and uh well there they even talk, they would have examples of uh someone that had gone forward at church, and you've seen the where they get hit on the head and they collapse and they pass out. Experiences where people that happened to them, and then all of a sudden they were different in a bad way after that, and where they became a compulsive liar, they were mean to their spouse and their kids all of a sudden, where they're normally just a very kind person. Um, and the spouse then comes to my grandma, like, something's not right. Yeah, can you help? And then he would they'd come in, he'd start praying with them, and all of a sudden, something would pop up. And so I don't know if you would call that a partial possession. I call the partial, well, probably I call the partial too, would be like the strongholds.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

Strongholds, yeah. You know, those that um you know they're everyone. They can let go of something. There's something that they cannot let go and they do not know why, and some sort of stronghold. Um I would agree with that. Over them, and then the then the perfect, which is would be the full full possession.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

Yeah, those are you know, and obviously those are rare, you don't see them very often.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:11

Those are like where you almost like your grandpa, they're talking in a different voice. Okay, you know, all these different things are manifesting, you know, and so and it is very, very distinct, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Change of voice, change of behavior. I mean, and um, and this is where things got really wild, where you know, if we read, uh he has a pamphlet, this is very old, but um, it's called Demon Activity and the Christian. And I think one of the very first examples he gives is where a pastor comes to him and says, I don't know why, but I wanted to kill somebody.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

And then as he's sitting there with my grandpa, he goes, And right now I want to kill you. Yeah, and I don't know why. And then in that moment, he lunges at my grandpa. And my grandpa, uh, I always forget where he gets this, but he and he was a King James guy, probably. So he he just literally instinctively blurts out, I am begotten of God, and the wicked one cannot touch me. And that pastor falls down, passes out, and as they kind of, you know, hey, come back, he's like, What just happened? And hey, but talk about a prayer to start your day. Yeah, I'm begotten of God and the wicked one, and I've got to be able to do it. The wicked one cannot touch me. I I need to memorize where that chapter and verse is. That's my but like if you prayed that before you left your house every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:25

Yeah. I'm begotten of God.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

And the wicked one cannot touch me. Yeah, absolutely. But in that moment, it's like, what was going on with the pastor wanting to kill somebody? Um, it just there's it's a fascinating uh how much the person changes and their voice changes. Uh, but then it I think the other big fascinating thing is the conversations that my grandpa would have with an evil spirit talking through a person that he knew personally as a child of God, a believer in Jesus, would proclaim it in their right senses. They'd say, Absolutely, I love Jesus. He is my Lord and Savior, and claim it. But then when something would change, it was a different story. Yeah. Um, and man, the conversations are wild. Yeah. Uh the things he would learn, uh, the things that they did not like. It's pretty funny when you go listen to this, they would poke the demon a little bit if he wasn't doing what they wanted. Um, he they'd start, my grandma would be in the room and she'd start singing hymns. And there's a moment where you hear this fumbling around, and my grandpa would yell, get your hands off her neck. Oh my sitting there and listening, and I'm going, wait a minute, that's my grandma. This is what I'm doing, grandma, you know, and so it gets wild. Oh, and they would sometimes have to restrain people.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

Um, but as best they could, they should like I'm just thinking through that, you know, singing hymns, and how much that tick Satan off? Oh, they can't stand it. What do many people believe his job was up in heaven?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:52

Worship. Yeah. Yeah. And so they would provoke the demon to torment them, purposefully torment them to because they're trying to find, I want to know your name. Yeah. Because when they knew the name, they knew what to cast out.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:04

Okay, so this gets into this part, I think, is important. Yeah. Um, and not just your grandpa, the this even the person's everybody, yeah. The demon's name is their function. Their function. And so just in that one person, like what are the different ones that in one person?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

I started writing down and listening to this little documentary. One person there was liar, warrior, controller, deceit, uh, blackout, collapser, and the big one was destroyer. This girl was trying to commit suicide.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

So, how many was that?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:32

That was uh seven.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:33

Seven, holy good job. Uh, but yeah, seven different demons within one, all named after their function. After their function.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:41

And so, like, you're like And each one would kind of come and go and you have a different conversation with a different one.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:45

And while and you talk about, oh, hey, tell me your name. He would like literally command them to tell them their name, and it ended up being their function. You know, even us as we're praying, if you want to know, hey, how can you cast out or what can you be praying over? Pray the function because it might be an evil spirit or a demon attached to that. Yep. Um, you know, I'm as we were studying all this, it this is serious thing, like in my house, was my boys had severe constipation going on. Yeah, literally, they could not poop at all to the point it was causing stomach problems. Yeah, like they were hurting, they were hurting, they were in pain. Um, and as we're studying this, I'm like, oh my gosh, you know what? I literally just start walking around my house and saying, in the name of Christ Jesus, our Lord, if there's a spirit of constipation on this house, it must flee in the name of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:34

And start just over and over just saying that. I'm not even kidding. Judge within 10 minutes, he had the biggest poop of his entire life. And the next in the next day, in the next day, it was almost like I had to pray the other way because both kids were too much. Both of them had diarrhea. So they left loose. Literally, well, they went through like three outfits because like the diaper could not control what was taking place. And I was like, Wow, I don't know if it some people say that's just coincidence. I'm like, no, I don't think it is. Sorry. But so is there a a demon called Could be constipation? I'm not saying my kids were possessed, I'm saying what there could have been something in the house, yeah, you know, you know, or whatever it might be. Who knows? I don't know. All I know is I prayed over them, I prayed over the house, and it was poopery going all over all over.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:20

Well, I would say, Luke, for you, because of what you do, yeah, uh, you have an even bigger target on your back. But where Satan is probably going to have an easier access is not through you. Yeah. Because you're going to be you're very much more in tune or your senses are heightened as to how he operates. But your little boys, they don't know. That's right. They're they're completely innocent. They don't understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:42

Yeah, and is it coincidence that that was happening the Sunday after we talked about John's Jesus talking about the love of God, where multiple people ended up accepting the love of God for the very first time? Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:52

Yeah. You know, it's there's no coincidence. Exactly. I mean, just flat out, there's no coincidences. And that's uh there's a couple things in that. One is again, you got to watch out for your family, especially for us in ministry, but even just as a believer in Jesus, a child of God, you need to watch out for your family because that's who they're gonna come after. They may not be able to get to you or they're gonna go to the next thing, yeah, which is your closest family member, your family. But the other key thing you mentioned there, and this is why I am really weird about this and hypersensitive to it, is you kept saying, in the name of Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus. And you want to know why that's important? Come on, tell us. I I know, but you tell everybody else. Because my grandpa came across a demon named Jesus, and so you gotta clarify specifically, yeah. But that was a very common name, very common name. Yeah, it's so very common name in the day, but he had experienced a demon named Jesus. And so my grandpa was pretty hypersensitive to well, I'm claiming the only one and only Christ Jesus then into my authority because I don't want any of this to get misconstrued as to who I'm praying to. Yeah, so that is a huge thing. When you pray, I just I get it when people are in your precious name I pray or in your name I pray. Yeah. No, say the name, the whole name, and who he is and what he's accomplished as the Christ. Yeah. Um, that's where the authority lies.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

You know, I remember we first had that conversation two years ago, and I think I prayed in the name of Christ Jesus before, yeah, but now ever since that conversation we had a couple years ago, I make sure it's it's constantly in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:20

Yeah, for sure. Um there's a couple other weird names. They get really wild. One was called Cesan. I have no idea I don't even know how to spell that. I tried to go look it up. There's another one that he came up with false tongue. Here's another one Pretense Counterfeit Serpent. You want to take a gander or what that one's function was? I don't know. Um, but then he also came across one named Hate Rockstad. So we've always been kind of, you know, as a family, just knowing that that's out there potentially and whether he's still out there or it's still out there, don't know. But yeah, that he came across an evil spirit named Hate Rockstad. And I think it was because of what he was doing, obviously. Um, but who's to say there's not a hate win free because of what you do, right? Uh and what you're doing and leading people to Christ. They hate that and they want to oppose that. So we just have to be very careful. And that's actually as we we're about to roll into our staff meeting. That's gonna be my I'm leading the quip time. That's what I'm gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:18

Yeah. No, that's good. So this is like as we land the plane on this, um, you know, my biggest encouragement to people would be number one, understand you're you're fighting from victory, not for victory. Christ has already won the battle. You have that authority living inside of you through the power of the Holy Spirit. Now you step into and start fighting for yourself and for your family. And if you have a stronghold in your life and something you keep going back to, you can't break it. It's happening. Pray over that specifically. Claim it by name. Yeah, by name. Have other people come around you, pray over it by name, pray over your house, pray over your home, pray over your family, pray that hedge of protection by name and the authority. Authority of Christ Jesus. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:02

That will go so very, very far. Yeah, and claim the hedge of protection over you. God's protection over you. Put on the armor of God. Yeah. Go memorize Ephesians 6, 10, um, and start learning the armor of God and what all each piece does. Put it on it. Say those in your prayer. I put this on, Lord. Protect me from the fiery darts of the devil. Yeah, there's so many things you can do, but I would also add that if you're doing things that are contrary to how Christ would be, if you're not acting in love, uh, if you're not acting in kindness and goodness, and you're doing something and you're having feelings that are contrary to who Christ was, you probably better pray about that too. Um, because that in itself, just even in a minimum, that's part of taking off the old flesh and putting on the new. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

And that's what I was like, yes, Holy Spirit, it is his home, his residence. Stop opening up the door. Yeah. So be cautious. Stop opening up the door and giving him a foothold in these certain areas. Be aware. Yeah. Keep get your eyes wide open. Yeah.

unknown 1:28:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

I'm begotten of God. And a wicked one cannot touch me. The wicked one cannot touch me.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:00

It's a wonderful thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:01

Yeah, that's good stuff. Well, love the conversation. Great things. Uh this Sunday we get to land the plane on uh rediscovering Jesus as we talk about Paul's Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:09

So better land at staff has arrived.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:10

They have arrived. It's time to get going. So all right. Thank you again for tuning in uh for uh the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. And hopefully we'll see you guys on Sunday. If not, we'll talk to you guys next week.