Are we Saved by Faith or Works | Holy Week | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 26

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we step into one of the most important and often debated questions in Christianity: Are we saved by faith or by works?

As we reflect during Holy Week, the weight of this question matters even more. What did Jesus accomplish on the cross—and how does that impact our salvation? Is it faith alone? Do works play a role? And how do we reconcile passages that seem to say both?

We dive into questions like:

• What does it truly mean to be saved by faith?
• Where do works fit into the life of a believer?
• Are good works required for salvation—or are they evidence of it?
• How do we understand Paul vs. James on faith and works?
• What does the cross settle once and for all?

This conversation isn’t about picking sides—it’s about understanding the fullness of the gospel. Because when we get salvation right, it changes everything about how we live, love, and follow Jesus.

If grace is a gift, then our response matters. And if our response matters, we need to understand it clearly.

🎙️ Series: Holy Week Conversations
📖 Topics: Salvation, Faith & Works, Grace, The Cross
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Well, hey, thanks for joining us for the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. As always, Pastor Roger, Pastor Jordan, Pastor Luke, as we uh break down a little bit of what you heard on Sunday morning or maybe what you didn't hear, and uh then we're gonna go into some uh additional topics as we are officially into Holy Week as we get ready for Easter Sunday. And by the way, let's go ahead and plug that right now. We'll probably plug it again. 8, 9, 30, and 11 on Sunday. Be praying what service you want to go to. Luke, if somebody asks the question, what is the one I can go where I'm gonna get the best parking and the most room, what service would you recommend? Be eight o'clock. 8 a.m. Yeah. I know that means for you uh for you young ones out there, you got to set your alarm a little bit early, but uh 8 a.m. would be the same.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I was hoping we we'd have a sunrise service sometime, which is like 5:30 something. Some churches do that.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

And I love let I've I've I've did we do a sunrise service as youth pastors? We did Good Friday.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

We did a Good Friday service, but we never did a sunrise service. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So that's that's beautiful. So all that being said, it is easy Easter is coming up, but uh in the meantime, uh we are gonna break down kind of what this week looks like. Before we get to that, though, Luke, you uh preached on Sunday, broke down Paul's Jesus, and so we'll give you the floor uh of what you kind of want to talk about with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Yeah, no, I think the just go back and listen to it because that's gonna be the easiest way to plug it all. But the part that we didn't really get to dive into uh very much because Paul's Jesus, I mean, we tried to had to cover 13 letters of who he thought Jesus was, and you can summarize Paul's Jesus into one thing, and I think that Jesus is Savior. That was his emphasis over and over and over again. And the reason that's so important to Paul is because that's what happened in his life, and how if I was to ask you to describe Jesus, a lot of it's going to be through the lens of how you've experienced Jesus and probably what your testimony was. And that's how Paul would describe Jesus. And so his testimony on the road to Damascus in Acts chapter 9, we see him share that testimony, you know, three more times throughout just the book of Acts. Uh, but that was the pivotal moment of how he would describe his Jesus and all of his letters. So it came down to Jesus being savior, and all of the messages, if you were to look at his letters, can be summed up in him explaining how Jesus is savior and what does that mean for us as his people, and then how we are to live as Jesus as our savior, as the bride of Christ, and as the church. That was the summary of what he would talk about. Uh if you would if you take it all together, and that's how but through those letters, and with that being the point, that's how we learn how to do church. And so there's a lot there to unpack when we talk about Paul's Jesus, but to summarize it, it it is about him being saved.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

I think uh only thing I would add is just how much I don't know how much, but there's different letters where Paul will start to dig into who Jesus was or who Christ was, the God incarnate. Yeah. And then and then also just the the idea of God had a plan before creation, and Jesus was the fulfillment of that plan. That's been this plan from we don't even understand. There's no time connected to it. We don't understand time. Those are that's another part of just that supremacy of Christ, who he he is the visible God, basically. Uh you think of God the Father, this is what he would look like to us as humans. Um He gets into that a little bit too, and then the mystery of this, of the how God played it out throughout history. Those are those, I'd add that a little bit too to the Savior who Paul's Jesus. I'd throw in that uh who he is on the divine level a little bit there too.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah, that's important to Paul because he grew up as a Pharisee, and so he had all that Old Testament Jewish law knowledge as going with him as he was going forward. But if you look at Paul, unlike the other gospel writers and the letters that we have, he focuses really on three days of Jesus' life, and that was his death, burial, and resurrection. That's what it all almost came down to for Paul, and that was the emphasis as he was even sharing his letters. Those three days uh bring up a majority of how he summarizes Jesus' ministry, and it's because Paul, I think it's so easy for us to follow him as Americans because Paul knew about God, he knew God, he believed in God, and grew up with that religion in his life. And we see his transformation story happen whenever he that head knowledge moved into his heart, and he actually entered into a relationship with Jesus. And I think for us in America, that's a big problem. A lot of people know about God, a lot of people know about Jesus, but yet they don't have a relationship with him. And so we get to see that and how Paul took the the passion he had for his religion and turned it into a passion he had for his real relationship with Jesus, and it turned everything around as he would go on.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Why do you think God chose of all the people? Because there were many people that were walking a road to Damascus. And your study of the 13 letters, why do you speculate of all the people God says you're gonna write over half of the New Testament? Why did he choose Paul?

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, I think as he would say, even on his road to Damascus, this is my chosen instrument. And he says, My chosen instrument to reach not just the Gentiles, but even to reach the people of Israel. And I think Paul, being that chosen instrument, was beautiful because he was able to reach both groups of people. And so as God was taking, you know, the whole emphasis of Acts was, you know, how the gospel spread from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the ends of the earth, it he needed a unique instrument to be able to take it from Jerusalem to the ends of the earth. Paul had that distinct calling where he could show up in a temple in the synagogue and speak the Jewish language, talk their talk, and then bring it back to Jesus and how summarize how everything in the Old Testament pointed towards Jesus now that he's changed. But he could also have the authority to go to the Gentiles and say, Hey, by this authority, this is why I'm able to come to you. So he was the unique chosen instrument. I think also it goes into Paul was willing, he had a passion in what everything that we see that Paul did, he was zealous for, and the Lord needed an instrument of somebody that had that type of passion and burning desire uh to follow him. And I think that's what made Paul the chosen instrument. Jordan, I don't know if you'd add anything to that.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

Yeah, I mean, he has he claims he's the Pharisee of Pharisees, yeah. Uh who better else, yeah, chief sinner, but spoke murder and yeah, but who better else than to have a conversion to then show to other people I'm like, guys, we've got it all wrong. Yeah, it's been revealed to me now. And uh, I mean, I don't know how many other Pharisees he may have converted or led. It doesn't really talk about that much, but uh yeah, it's a lot of what you were describing there. He he he could fit both the speaking to the Jew at the highest level because he was so stupid smart and articulate, and he could debate anybody, and he boy did you talk about you like him to debate.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Paul was but I I mean I just have this Acts 7 where Stephen is stoned and and and many the deacon is killed. And I just imagined being in that early church and the grief and the anger that I would have to see this leader in our church, and then shortly after Paul shows back up and says, Hey guys, um I know I've spoken murder against you, I know I've been a huge part in your heartbreak. Like I have been an instrument in your grief, but guess what? I've now seen the light. And I can think of in my own story because I my testimony is very Pauline, and that 15 years later I still have people say, Oh, it no, it's not real. There's no way because we knew who you were before. There's no way you can be on this side of the aisle in so drastic.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

They had to be incredibly leery, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And logically and intellectually, you should be skeptical, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

And the thing is if it wasn't for Barnabas, they'd be helped. Ain't no way. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

But that is where and even as pastors, you know, I I you uh you hear people say, Oh, I heard so-and-so got baptized. Yeah, I don't know about that. Like, I Is that even possible? Yes, like I know who they were, just you wait. Like, we need to be sinister, we need to be skeptical. And it's like only the power of Jesus, the same Jesus that encountered Paul is the same Jesus that it encountered the absolute worst sinner of them all. Because as Paul says, hey, you are all sinners, I am the chief sinner. He knew what he did, he knew what he was capable of, and yet only through the power of Christ was Paul able to do what he did.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Well, and that's what it's crazy. He goes from Jerusalem to Damascus, that road to Damascus moment happens before he returns to the people that just sent him out to do that and appear to the other disciples in Jerusalem. He spent three years. Like we read it because it's just from nine to chapter ten, it's one or two verses, but that's a span of three years where he was sharing the gospel, his testimony in Damascus, then the areas around Damascus, because he got ran out of Damascus, then he went back to Damascus and actually says the threats came down so hard on him they had to lower him out of the city in a basket. Yeah, yeah. And then he's like, Oh, you know what? I think it's time to go back to Jerusalem. Yeah. And then he spent some time there, too. He goes back to Jerusalem where Barney shows up. Yeah. And you know, you know the Lord had to appear to Barney to uh help him have the wisdom to do this and the courage, but how do you think Paul felt walking back into Jerusalem, knowing the last time he was there, what he was sent to do? Yeah. And the very thing he was sent to do, he's now coming back as one of them.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Well, and to ans I my answer to your question was kind of a part two, had two parts. This part two was that I think he was very effective at his persecution against the Christians, where I think, isn't it? Doesn't Jesus say, Why do you kick me in the goads? Is that what he says? Goad's the words. I think so. What translation is that I'm pretty sure I'll go look at it. Is that the message? Jaden Google. Is that supposed to be the original Greek? And I was like, Why do you persecute me? I thought it just said why do you persevere? I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

I'm genuinely Jaden looked that up. He's looking it up.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

But I mean, that basically would be the sentiment.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah. And so that tells me Paul was very effective and almost to the point of damaging. And Jesus was like, You're persecuting me when you do this. I'm gonna make this stop. Yeah. So, or else we're gonna have some serious trouble growing. Because nobody's gonna sign up for this if Paul's on the other opposing team. Because I think he was ruthless. Yeah. I mean, so um but that's also how you share the keep looking it up there.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

This is like maybe a bad equivalent, but like a man, you know, we've talked about Iran a lot. But imagine like a a a leader of Iran or a leader of a country that is built to hate Christianity, and then overnight the leader wakes up and says, Hey, I've encountered the risen Savior, Jesus is Lord. I mean, everyone would say, What in the world? What is going on? I mean, it is that level of what Paul was, who he represented before Damascus, and then who he became after Damascus. Again, the only explanation is Jesus Christ. I mean, that that's the only way. Jaden, did you find it?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

The goat is a long stick with a pointed metal tip used by farmers to prod oxen towards a destination. I'm looking at it is hard for you to kick against the goats.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

So he's talking about your farmers.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

I wasn't implying that. And that's what I said. I believe what that meant. Um but it was something I was like, I was just like, Jesus is like, hey, quit doing that. That's not good. And so Jesus had to put a stop to it. Did it say what translation that is? I'm still looking to that. Okay. So I guess I can't. Paul's kicking Jesus in the neck. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I thought the exact same thing. Well, when I read it, I thought the same thing. That's why I researched it. But it was severe enough that it's like, is that an X9 on the road to Damascus or is that another place?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

What's that? When is that mentioned?

SPEAKER_00 11:24

I thought it was.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

That's a very King James, like it instead of spec and uh it it says moat, like there's words that we don't even You kicketh me in the gnat. Yes, thigh.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

Uh it sounds like that, so I went and researched. I'm like, oh okay, that's it. Verily, verily I say unto you. It was it's enough that hey, what Paul was doing was causing some some trouble.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Well, it's scandalous, downright scandalous. And so obviously having that context of who he was, and then he's writing this this view. Um, because you remember, we we think of Christianity as being this big organized group of people that make up you know a third of the nation. Paul, the way that the Jews viewed is that he was a leader in a cult. That this was a cult that was worshiping this dead person known as Jesus. Did you figure out you find something?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

King James says it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Okay, now we're really going on.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Is this an axe nine? Is this an Axe 9? Uh like where that's it has to be, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Interesting. So, anyways, Paul is it from the from their perspective, from the Jews' perspective, he he's just a he it's this cult that has been created and it and is is blowing up. And Paul is saying these we use the word scandalous, this idea of you know, the law that you read read in the Old Testament, actually um all of those laws were guilty of, as Jesus said in on the Sermon of the Mount. And on top of all of that, it is by grace alone. It is nothing that you can do beyond accepting the grace of Jesus Christ to save you. And again, that is it's it it's that statement that led them to kill Jesus, and ultimately it's that statement that led them to cut the head off of Paul eventually uh when he was uh writing the letter to Philippi. So New King James. New King. Okay, N K.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

N-K J V. Admittedly, I haven't done a lot of work with that. Uh and it's G-O-A-D-S. So Goaz.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

We say Boaz is B-O-A-Z. I don't know. That's interesting. I didn't talk, and I'll get to that. I've never I've read that passage maybe 10 million times. I've only read it in probably New King and IV verse five. So interesting. Chapter 9. I'll have to dive more into that.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

So all that being said. Yeah. So Paul, I mean, that's why I think he made a good instrument. I mean, he goes back to Jerusalem for the first time, and I think we have to understand what cre where Christianity was at this point, because the large portion of Christians were still in Jerusalem. And what we had was the day of Pentecost take place, and there was thousands of people converted at that moment. Well, they had to go back home. So you have these little pockets of Christians, some in Damascus, some in Antioch, little pockets of Christians are, but as Jordan was saying, they're not, they haven't exploded yet. Um, and so Paul returns back to Jerusalem and he learns from the disciples that are already there. And we see him spend time learning from those who actually followed around Jesus, and then he gets sent out, goes to Antioch, uh, where that becomes his home church, where the people were first called Christians, and then he goes on his missionary journeys. But as you said, big part of his, he grew up in a religious system where it was works by what made you saved through what you did at the temple. Now he's sharing a gospel that you are saved by faith alone, not by your works. And this is something I said Sunday we're gonna dive more into the podcast because this is where it almost gets people get confused in the Bible, because the Bible might seem to contradict each other. So this is where I want to dive into is Paul makes the argument we are saved by faith, not by works. But then if you read James, which is Jesus' brother, in James 2, it says faith without works is dead. So which one is it? Both. Okay, explain.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Faith without works is dead, and that genuine faith will lead to obvious works. And so if works do not follow what I use unconsciously, um, then that would be evidence that there is no faith. And so it is not to say the belief of, okay, now that I have faith, I must do this, this, and this to uphold my faith. That would not be biblical. But the idea of now that I have faith, now that my life is beyond myself, and it's actually to live for something else, being Jesus, um, my my works are going to unconsciously follow that. My my the how I live my life is going to look differently than how it did before. That doesn't mean that there's a there's a list of things that we have to do. And so that's that's what I would say. Yes, faith without works is dead. No works is evidence of no faith, but we are justified by faith alone.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah. It's good, Jordan?

SPEAKER_01 15:52

I'm gonna go to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

He's looking at you So it is a long stick with a sharp point used by farmers to guide oxen while plowing. So the poke, this the oxen, but then the ox would kick back and it would cause more pain for the ox. So because of what Paul was doing, and it references like the martyrdom martyrdom of Stephen, what Jesus is saying to Paul is like, I'm you're resisting on purpose, and it's going to hurt you even more because you're going against my prodding to get your attention, to get you to make sense. By you kicking back like you're doing, you're only gonna hurt yourself even more, so you need to get on the same page. That's what that would be.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

And then he goes even goes into then he has a conversation with Ananias, and he the Lord tells Ananias, and he will learn what it's like to suffer for my name's sake. So that would flow right into that.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Yeah, I would I've always wondered if Paul's thorn in the flesh was his guilt over the persecution.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Second Corinthians 12. I I've I've for me, if someone were to tell me like Roger, what is one passage that you really want to explain the life of Paul? And of course, there's uh count, like you said, 13 letters. Second Corinthians 12 to me embodies who Paul was. This idea that he was human. He was very human. I mean, he battled this this thorn in his flesh. Um, you know, the more I read, and this is such like a 21st century answer, the more I read uh Paul and the more I study his writings, I I think it was something mental health related. I really do. And I know, you know, we haven't you mental health is a very kind of new thing in American history and stuff, but I do think that it's very possible that what Paul was was battling, and it maybe it goes back to grief, but maybe like a severe depression or anxiety. I mean, something that for depression couldn't come along from the words we use today, they weren't using the word depression 2,000 years ago, but it could have just been this immense just sadness or something that he was experiencing. And you see, I think, themes of that in some of his writings. And so maybe it was this mental thorn that he could not get through, but the idea that even in that he still boasted, he still brought it back to the Lord, he still got closer to Jesus through his own weakness, through his own insecurity. Um, that to me is speaks volumes to who Paul was.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

The other thought I, and I'm changing the subject on it. Well, I'll come back to your question, but you'll have to ask the question. I give a good answer, so I think we're not sure. But is the suffering that he had throughout his ministry for the church. I also wondered if that could have been his thorn in the flesh. Is the suffering the suffering. And and we think of suffering as in persecution. I think Paul's suffering was more involved with regards to his struggles with the churches to get them to do what they need to do. So not the flogging, the shipwrecking, the snowing. Not so much the actual physical. Because he was going through that as well. But which could have been a part, but he talks about his suffering for the churches, and that he is he's like constantly like in anguish over their not getting it. And he's grieving, and he's grieving it. Yeah, yeah. Because he talks about how he wants to present them as a bride to the Lord, a perfect perfect bride. Yeah. And in order for them to be perfect, they got to be doing right.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

And I love the alternative to that is like when he's writing to Philippi, Philippians, he's he's writing, it's almost it, it's like uh uh a loved one writing to their spouse, like, oh, how I long for you. I mean, it's it's it's a hallmark card. And it's like so when the church is doing how he sees it, you see Paul react very differently. Different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

So I wondered if that was also possibly a thorn of it. Anyways, what was your question? We were talking about but faith without works.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Faith, faith without works, but I would even say, show hey, proof of his faith was how much he had to suffer. And like, so like that was even some fruit of how Jew his faith was, yeah, was how much he had to suffer for which we would say that is a good work, even though the world would say, Oh my gosh, like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_01 19:36

But yeah, we were just talking about the coexistence of faith without works is dead with you are justified by grace alone. How do those two not contradict? Yeah, and how do those two actually make sense together as opposed to apart?

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Man, you went through that really fast because I was thinking about something else real quick before you get to that. Even Peter in his first letter, he talks about if you're willing to suffer for Christ, you've hit a new level of you've graduated. You've kind of graduated that you're probably not even sinning anymore, or you've your sins have started to fade away because you have you've kind of turned this corner of like truly following God's plan for you that you've walked away from your old self if you're willing to suffer for Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Um, which is why oftentimes in the moment sin can be a suffering repellent. Oh, I've had a terror, my my life is terrible, I'm going to go drink. That feels like a repellent in the moment, but in the long run, it's actually the opposite.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

But going back to what he said, so faith without works is dead. Yeah. James. James. Paul says you are justified alone in faith, that faith is the only thing. So if faith alone, which would then presume okay, works does not play a role, how does that coexist and not contradict with what James says when he says faith without works is dead?

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Yeah, so James is, I think, more talking about the works you have to do to be saved. Paul's saying, no, that's a gift. And they're not contradicting each other. James isn't saying that either. He's saying that if you are truly saved and you have the love of Christ in your heart, you're now gonna do loving things to other people. That's the works. That's the fruit, those are the deeds. You're gonna have this change of heart that you want to go take care of the poor, the widowed, the sick, the the someone that needs food, a drink of water, who is in prison. And you're gonna go do that because of the transform heart that the Holy Spirit is.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

And he uses two examples. He uses Abraham and Rahab. He said, How was their faith proven? How was it more than just words? It was proven by Abraham by their action whenever he climbed the mountain with his son, willing to sacrifice him. Rahab, how was her faith proven whenever she went against the government and said, Hey, she was willing to lie. Yeah, she was willing to do that. She was willing to house these spies and take care of them.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Fascinating discussion on that. Is it okay to lie if it means? But Rahab is a prostitute, how she was able to turn away and then and then have a role in the lineage of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Yeah. So there it's kind of the when you look at if you think of salvation uh in the middle, which is which one are they talking about? Before it works as bad. Before or after the salvation, on both, which both James and Paul, it is the works after salvation. What happened in your heart is now changed, and you want to go do live a different way, and you want to love people a different way. Um, so um Galatians 5 6b, uh the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Yeah. So those actions is how you love. Uh so you have your faith, and because of that, how you prove your love upstairs is how you said it's unconscious, it's an unconscious thing.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

We talked about before the show. Um, we're, you know, we're gonna go feed a factory this week. Um, are we doing that to give us bonus points when we get to heaven? Like, okay, my debt is$20 trillion in sin. God, if you remove one trillion, I'll go feed someone. No, not at all. We do it because it's the overflow of the heart that we get to do this because we've been blessed by the blood of Christ. We want as many people as possible to have the same cure of death that we have experienced. That's that's the works that James is talking about.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah, I think you have to look at the audience they're writing to as well. You know, James and and who he's writing to, and then who Paul and who he is writing to. You know, James he's making the argument to probably uh Jewish Christians who grew up with the legalism of the law, and he's like saying, Hey, just so you know, those laws that we used to follow, that's not what make you saved anymore. But your faith should be so genuine that it should be proved by the works of following Christ. And so it's not he's not so much talking about that where Paul is probably writing to Gentiles who are being influenced by Jews who are saying, preaching another gospel, saying, Hey, in order to be a follower of God, you have to do X, Y, and Z. So Paul, and what he is talking about, is more in the face of legalism, saying, Hey, you you are saved by faith alone. You don't have to worry about the Jewish works. You don't have to worry about doing all those different things. That's not what saves you. It's only by God's grace. So you have to understand the works that Paul and James are talking about.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

And where they fall with regards to salvation, before or after. Right. Always after. For both.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It seems simple, but then the question is, why do so many people I mean, even Luther, I love Martin Luther. I mean, Martin Luther is thone out. He he didn't want it canonized. I mean, he so like even we're not just talking Catholics and Mormons, and you know, we've talked about them before and why they grossly, I think, misinterpret this passage, but even Protestants that that this this passage hangs them up so much. And to me, I've I've never understood that the issue with with these two ideas coming together. To me, it just makes sense. It's cohesive.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

But it does open up a big old can of worms with regards to because James also says, hey, even the demons believe. Yeah, that doesn't mean they're going to heaven. Yeah, so there's this, there's something that has to happen within somebody. If there is not a change with someone who claims they, oh, I accepted Jesus today, but then they go live the same. It's the exact same. There's no secular world type life. Something's not right. Yeah, uh, something didn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

And that's where both of them, that's where they get the agreement on is there has to be transformation. There has to be a transformation. And that's where Paul gets there too, said, Hey, whenever you receive the Holy Spirit, you're gonna be transformed in a way. And then James is getting the same thing, saying, Hey, if your faith is genuine, you're gonna be transformed, where really you have no option but to do these works, right? Because it's you have that so much.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And then you have John who takes Paul and James and come puts it together, and then you read in 1 John, where John really breaks down, hey, the fruit of salvation and distinguishing repentance versus unrepentance, and to say, you cannot be saved and have an unrepentant heart. Like those two cannot go together. So it does it mean we're gonna stop sinning? No, we we we sin as believers, but it's it has to do with the posture of the heart of repenting versus not repenting. And so, like the question I'm sure you guys get as well, but like, uh, can homosexuals go to heaven? Yes, I believe people that struggle with homosexuality can go to heaven. But my question is, is there repentance at the end of that struggle or is there unrepentance in the midst of because where there's unrepentance, I'm not saying an unrepentant heart in that circumstance automatically damns them to hell, but it it does pose the question if they truly and genuinely have given themselves over to the Lord Jesus Christ, are they going to have an unrepentant heart in the same way of the struggle that they're dealing with? Yeah, that's that's ultimately what we go back to.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

And I'd also add in that is with that sin, in any sense. Any sin. I just use that as an example because that's that's the one that everyone asks about. If you have a struggle and in your conversion process of understanding who Christ is, you now are made aware of, hey, you know what? I know that's wrong now. And then in the midst of trying to work through that, you're now going, Oh man, I can't kick this. I know I can't, I shouldn't be doing this. I don't want to do this because I know, because Jesus says I shouldn't. I think there's also a moment where God is going to understand you in your moment and you're going to Him say, I need your help. Yeah, I cannot kick this on my own. This is something that's in me that I can't figure out. I can't seem to get past this problem within me or this sin in me. Lord, I don't know what to do. I need your help. God's gonna be like, Thank you. And going back to exactly what I want you to do. And again, we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

There's a big difference in that. And in 2 Corinthians 12, we don't know the thorn. Is it possible that Paul's thorn could have been a pre-salvation struggle that carried into his ministry? And it was the thorn that he prayed and prayed and prayed. I always use the example. One of my heroes, Brendan Manning, who wrote the Rag Muffin Gospel, died from complications of alcoholism. He fought that his entire life to the very end, but he fought it with a repentant heart. And I think that that's where we have to do that. There's a difference in that.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Very much so. And because normally you wouldn't care. Before your conversion and understanding Christ and asking Christ into your life and that change in your heart, you wouldn't have cared. Well, now your conscious is saying, man. Yeah, uh, dog, why why can't I kick this? Lord, I need your help. That's the first beatitude. We use beatitude number one.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

We use the word guilty conscience, but as believers, the the other word that we would use is Holy Spirit. You cannot have the Holy Spirit residing in your heart and in the same token doing things that go against that presence.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And that's the term is called grieving the Holy Spirit. Exactly. Yeah. Well, I've heard and I've heard it put this way we are saved by works, the work of Jesus, the work of Jesus and not by our works. Yeah, for Christ's work on the cross. That work, the work of Jesus becomes a free gift. And that free gift, as Paul would put it, is the gift of grace. And that's where I had a professor, he made us read, Dr. Rodney Reeves that spoke with us, he made us read this book in his class over the book of Romans. And it's called Paul and the Gift. It's by John Barclay. Uh it's kind of expensive, very difficult read, but it's a good read. And what they taught talks about in the gift is we have to understand first century gift giving. So when Paul talks about the free gift of grace, what he explains is for us, in the first century, lesser people would always give gifts to greater people because it's all about honor. And so whenever a lesser person would give gifts to a greater person, they would receive honor for giving that gift. But greater people do not give gifts to the lesser. That seems strange. Right. That's kind of strange. In our culture, it is. But in the first century, that's why we have to understand it. So when he is saying that God is giving us that free gift, whenever that gift is open, when a greater gives something to a lesser, that yes, it is a free gift, but when that gift is open, then the work begins. And so it was a free gift of giving. And so for us, in the same way, when we receive the free gift of grace and we open that up, and now we haven't, we've received it. Okay, now the work begins. Of we now Jesus' command to us follow me.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I know, I know we need to move on, move on to Holy Week, but this is a thought process, a thought exercise I've always been interested in. So we agree. There's no action that we take for salvation that Jesus already did it. Correct. Is repentance required for salvation?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Well, and see, there's another thing we need to define some words like grace is you are given something you don't deserve. Right. Repentance, we always think, and I grew up thinking repentance was asking for forgiveness of my sins. No, it's it means you're going a whole new direction. You've turned away from things. It's not an act of asking for issues. Because there's I'm not going to do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

There are some denominations that would argue, you know, when we repent and be baptized, repent and be baptized, that repentance actually is an action. It is something that we must do, and therefore repentance actually isn't a requirement of salvation, but it comes following the salvation. So then the question is Is repentance required for us to be saved? Uh most Christians would say yes, when you you have to repent in order to accept Jesus Christ, well then therefore there is something that is required of us in order to ultimately make Jesus the Lord of their life.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

You can think about that, or you can think about it, it's the response of opening up the free gift. So because you opened up the free gift, the response and what you have no option to do is to repent and turn away. If you don't repent, you never actually open the gift of grace. So it's not.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

So it's not a yeah, I would agree. It's not necessarily this action step. It would be like take this million dollar check and be happy. Okay, do you choose to be well, no, it it just happens because I've received this incredible thing. Repentance is kind of the same way. It's not like, okay, now I have to do this, but that it's just the overflow again, going back to this idea that it unconsciously occurs.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

I'll use I'll use this as an example. It's more like your wedding day. If you get married, do you naturally start living differently now that you're married? Yes. Correct, right? You're no longer leave living that same way. I don't live with mom anymore. Right, right. You don't live with mom. If you still live with your mom and your wife lived in another house, come see are you actually married? Are you actually married?

SPEAKER_01 31:35

You might be legally married, but you have a weird marriage. Yeah, you don't have yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

And so that's in in the same department of okay, yeah, whenever we open that gift of grace, just as when we step into the gift of marriage, it should naturally change how you live in the same way opening up the gift of grace, the only response should be repentance, which means turning away from your sin and now falling.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

So as you use getting married to change your life, how are you living prior to accepting Christ? You're living according to the world. Yeah. So then when you repent, you're now switching who you're following and living according to instead of the world, you're now living according to God's way and his plan. So you're changing because his way is completely opposite of the world's diametric. So when Peter says repent and be baptized, that means quit following the ways of the world and now follow the ways of God, which is Christ, and his ways, which is to go love, and now let's go get baptized and get the.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

I wish we had more time on this because I do want to move on to Holy Week. But I I know that so many people that talk to me, which means that they probably talk to you too, is just this struggle of we do so many believers lack assurance in salvation and they're fearing because oh, I keep falling into this sin, and we go back to James, faith without works is dead. What if my struggle in this means that I'm not saved? And my response is the fact that you are actually wrestling with that is actually proof that you are saved. Yeah. Because non-believers aren't worried about, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

So then I would say the next step is what are you doing with that wrestling or that consciousness now? You're grieving the Holy Spirit. That's the Holy Spirit saying, Hey man, you gotta quit that. Can't do that. Um, then now what are you doing with it? Are you then taking it back to God and saying, Okay, you know me. I can't, I can't do this on my own. You I need your help. Yeah, and all that is just, I think, part of your sanctification process. You're wrestling with your sin and you're trying to take off those old clothes of the old self and you're trying to transform yourself and you're working hard as you can, but I go back to it again. The first beatitude, you got to realize you are poor in spirit, you don't have what it takes. You gotta rely on to help you.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

But you used a big church word that for 10 years, well, for 10 years of me being a Christian, I heard pastors mention sanctification. Yeah, I never knew what it meant because no one ever explained it. What do you mean by sanctifying?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

I think it's the process of of becoming new, uh, of taking off the old self of the ways of the world, how you used to live, to now understanding what Christ is calling us to do and how to live, as Paul talks about, and you can go pluck it from all the different letters of you're putting away rage and malice, malice and sexual immorality and all these, you're not worshiping, you know. He says idols. Well, start picking out things in your life that have a hold of you that you can't stop doing. Uh those could probably idols in your life, um, or things you put above God. You need to go, you need to start turning away from all this. And then he starts talking about the fruit of the spirit. And he starts talking about all these things, self-control and kindness and good, you know, love and all these things. It's that process of trying to switch over. And it's a process, and I think it takes our entire lives to truly get to that point. And it's not going to fully be realized until Christ returns, the dead are resurrected, and if you're still alive, you are transformed in an instant into your glorified state. Yeah. But until then, it's that process of becoming new, a sanctification process. So would you describe it any differently? No, I think that's how you write it.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah, no, I think it is good, but here's and I to kind of go back to what you were talking about of people who have a hard time with the assertion assurance of salvation. It's because they are still relying on their works instead of the work of Jesus. Yeah. So again, it comes back to the question: did they ever truly grasp the gift of grace that it was given to them? Like, did they really truly ever open that up? And I think that goes into Jesus' teaching of there will be a day when many of you are saying, Lord, Lord, but never knew me. Yeah. And the reason that is the case is because they knew the Lord, Lord, but yet they still relied on their own works instead of the work of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Which is why I think when we talk about salvation, we always presume salvation occurs when I say the prayer, when I make and it's this instantaneous moment where the Holy Spirit penetrates our heart, we become a believer. I mean, my testimony, very much a radical, instantaneous moment. But I also think for some people, salvation is that process where that onion gets unlayered, and then that they have that aha moment. They probably believed in God before, they thought they were doing it right, but when that ultimate realization comes, then that process of salvation ceases because they get it, and that is when ultimately they become saved.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And so and not to do silly plugs for people to show up to church, but it certainly helps to show up to church, get involved in Bible study, get into a small group, be reading your Bible regularly, and even going further and reading commentaries to dig in to understand what this process looks like. Because it is spelled out through most of Paul's letters, more than I'd say any of the others, how he defines so many different old self, new self, the process, the things you need to be doing. Um, because if you're if you don't go and dig and learn, you're not gonna understand. Judge what to go do.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

But 40-minute sermons are great. I love we love giving them. Listen, our Wednesday nights, I'm gonna say it now since I've been on, I've been on five and a half years I've been here. Our Wednesday nights have never been more active and vibrant in my experience, in what classes we have. And so ask questions. Yeah, you can start wrestling with things. It's gonna help make truth sticky, and once that truth sticks, then it's gonna come to the realization okay, it is the blood of Jesus that is sufficient for me to get that.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

And what made me want to say this when you had you talked about that aha moment, you don't get the aha moments until you go and dig and learn. Yeah. And understand what does this all actually mean or what is it that I'm being asked to do. Absolutely. Those are when you get the aha moments, is when you dig in. So you can get it on Sundays sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

But let's have some fun with that, those aha moments. Because, you know, even as a pastor, I learned a lot this week where I had aha moments just studying the studying the holy week.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I hope you we always have aha moments. We should never get to the point where like I already know that.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

So let's have some fun. Um before Jaden, did we cover all the things grace works related? Or is there any follow-up that you think? No, that was good. Good.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Even tackle goads.

SPEAKER_02 37:43

Good. Well, you know, talking about Holy Week, you know, there is a lot of good stuff there. So we you know, we reference Holy Week as, you know, Christians because it's the week leading up to that resurrection Sunday, that Easter Sunday of when Christ rose from the grave. We, as we know, on Good Friday where he died on the cross, and that week leading up to it, we now called Holy Week. And it all started on Sunday, which I think in our calendars we kind of get this confused. But Sunday back then in the first century. Yep. This would have been, you know, is it the last day of the week? Like, so like as we start on Sunday. Sunday's day one, technically speaking. So for us, that Sunday is is day one.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

It's it's the first day of the week. But would it have been their Saturday when it started for them? I'm trying to remember. Oh, he's gonna look it up. Yeah, I'm gonna look it up. Either way, it's day one. It's a different palm sundae. We call it Palm Sunday, but the day Jesus rode in on a wild colt and they're laying down palm branches and their cloaks. Hosanna. Hosanna on the high in the highest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Oh, Hosanna.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

They thought this was the new King David who was going to come and push back Rome. You were the king of the world, and Jesus says, I've I'm far greater than that.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

I th I thought it was a Sunday. Chat says it's Sunday. Okay. Yeah, whatever chat thinks it's always right. It's still Sunday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Can we have an episode on Chat GPT? Oh, yeah. People would love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Anyway, so Sunday, uh, yeah. So, you know, Sunday riding in on the palm or coming in on Palm Sunday. Significance of behind that, what takes place, you know, he sends his disciples for says, hey, give me a donkey and a cult or uh a foal, like basically a mom and a baby. Um it's a wild donkey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Any normal person would have probably gotten kicked off. Right. What does the King James call it? You really need to go look at it. Oh yeah. You don't need to look at it. You don't need to look at the never mind. It's not a bad word. It's just not an animal. It's like a female dog. Yeah. It's the same thing. Yeah. So I've never understood the choice of the mascot in that political party. I'm just kidding. What?

SPEAKER_01 39:52

I'm kidding. What did you say? I said I do. Um but yes, wrote on on the four-legged creature. Yeah. Um as they are screaming Hosanna, uh thinking that he is a king. The new David. The immediate king that that will assist their day-to-day life, but ultimately they didn't realize the transcendent king that had won.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

But they wanted a king that was going to push that back Rome and become dominant again. And for good reason.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Well, that was the strong symbolism because in the military realm, what should he have been riding in on if that's what he's coming to do?

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Well, that's what would happen is they would go out and greet the king as he returned from war with all the plunder, and they would celebrate and they would parade in with the king to the city.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

On what animal? Probably a horse. Probably a horse. Right. Yeah. That that that's the same thing. That's what they use for the head. Yeah, horse chariot. That's what they use for military. But yet he rode in on a donkey and it's cult. And so why is that important? It fulfills uh the prophecy of Zechariah 9-9. And that's also significant though, because what he's what's he doing is saying, hey, I'm I'm not coming in the way that you guys think I'm I'm coming into. I'm coming humble. I'm coming in as part of here in the physical, the material world with you guys, riding in humbly on this donkey, uh, because I'm about to do something. I'm insulating a new system. Yes. And so, but when you think about it that way, it's insane that he again fulfills everything that took place, what's going on there, but also he wasn't coming as a military victory this time around. But when he comes back again, what's he gonna what does the Bible say he's gonna be riding in on? White horse. White horse. That is more of a that's a more of the military type victory.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Do you speculate that there were people yelling Hosanna that were greeting him, that some of those people were the same ones soon after that were screaming crucify him?

SPEAKER_00 41:38

Very potentially, yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

I think I think so. Yeah. Because I think once they realized It wasn't what they wanted. They they were wanting this worldly example of Jesus that's gonna benefit their lives, and once they they realize, oh, he didn't come for just that.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Because you go through that last week. There is a turn of where the Pharisees are afraid to go after Jesus because he has the crowds on his sides, to then it switches that now they're going to go after him because everybody's yelling, crucify him. So there's somehow a shift that happens.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

I think some thought they were sold a bill of goods that, oh, well, no, that's not the ver this this actual Jesus is not the version we want. And where do we see that happen? All the stinking time. Where people want their own version of who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Okay, so I have, and I don't mean to get us off track, but I'm kind of Okay, so as he is riding in on the donkey uh on Palm Sunday, at his return, would it not be something similar where as we are taken up to the clouds and we meet him in the clouds, will we parade in with him to Earth, or do we go up with him? So what I'm getting at is a pre po pre-mid or post-tribulation uh return. Uh would it not look the same? Well, I'm very much pre. And and you guys, I I I Because if he's a pre, he basically shows up halfway and then goes back and then comes back again. But if it follows how he came into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, those who are alive and the dead would meet him in the air, basically, or outside of the the king the city and parade in with him his triumphant entry in, similar to what happened on Palm Sunday. But then it's judgment day.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Yeah. That's interesting. I who knows? I mean that that would be cool.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

And there's only one return. There's no one and a half. Depending on what side of judgment day you're on. But yeah, I would uh who knows, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Maybe and that's what I just thought it was really cool. Uh emphasis of the donkey, you know, he's coming to save us in our our human state, like coming to win that war. But then return because we're a bunch of wealth donkeys. Yeah, exactly. We are. And and he's coming in when he returns on a horse to actually win that overall war over Satan and and the evil forces. Uh, but I think you know how why we also believe those people to follow up with you that were yelling Hosanna, why they were wanting a military person. And I saw Rabbi Jason do a A podcast. This is the same guy, Rabbi Jason. He's a you say that like he thought you'd be able to do that. He actually is. Oh, you know Rabbi Jason. He's the guy that does uh the chosen. Like he's the one of the people that they see a rabbi? Yeah, he's one of the guys that consult. He's a he he's a Jew, but he's a Jewish Christian.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

So he So is a Messianic Jew?

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Correct. Okay, like Michael Byrne. Okay. And so he under the he has a deep study and all of that and Jewish history and the significance of all that. Okay. And he talks about, you know, when we see those palm branches, that we see that, oh, that represents peace. But what he gets into is actually clarifying in that time, um, they were symbols of military victory. And they were symbolized Jewish independence often appearing on different even coins and during times of revolting against oppressors. And so, you know, they even thought as he's walking in, they're playing these palm branches down, oh, that's their sign of, oh, this is a military victory. But this is our going to be our victory.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

And you could sympathize with them because Rome, Rome was out of control. I mean, Rome they made so many, like the the way they the government and and the the really the dictatorial ways that Rome was was was you know operating. You you have this idea of, okay, this guy has come in for us to be victorious in a militaristic sense. You you uh you understand why they would have fallen into that. Why that would have been entitled to the case.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

So why I think some of them were going from Hosanna to Crucifix, I'm not saying it was the whole crowd. Uh but I believe there were. I think there was because you know he rides in, they have in their mind what they think he's gonna do. He then goes into the temples, and what does he do on Monday and Tuesday? Right? He cleanses it. He cleans it out, cleans it out, cleans house. There's a huge significance in it. Then he is then on trial, and they're seeing him in handcuffs in Rome beating him at what they thought he came in to do to them. And so I think they were very agitated and upset at that moment. So I do think there was a few of that.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

To the point that they were willing to let Barabus, the murderer and um How did you say his name?

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Barabus. Barabus. But his all his name is also Jesus as well. Is that how you say it? Jesus Barabus.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

I've always said Barabus. Isn't it Barabbas?

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Barabbas, Jesus. His name had his Jesus in it, too.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

I've heard both. But I've always said Barabus.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Barabbas, whatever it is. His other part of his name is Jesus. But it wasn't just murder.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

It wasn't just murder, it was um uh what is it when you try to overthrow the government, what's that called? Uh January 6th, what what do they call that? The insurrection. That he was an insurrectionist, that he actually not only was he a murderer, but that his goal was to literally overthrow the government, and they look at Jesus and they look at him and they say, Oh, yeah, no, let him be instead. Yeah, we'll take him instead.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Well, that was just the create crazy irony of it all was both were named had Jesus in their name, and they're they're flip-flopping the one that really is the insurrectionist for the one that is not at all.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

You talk about substitutionary atonement. It is it is a prophecy of what is about to happen, and saying everyone knows I'll say Barabbas, because it I'm kind of insecure. You should be I've always said Barabas, but I've never heard it that way. Well, okay. But Barabbas uh is is the one that deserves it. Everyone knows it. Jesus, even even Pilate is saying, guys, I I really think we don't have enough here. We got a few misdemeanors. Like, what are we looking at? And finally he he gives in, and the the one who is guilty is let go, the one who is not guilty is put on the cross. Man, what a beautiful illustration of us yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah. But even you're talking about when he comes, you were talking about the all the things he, you know, from cleaning out the temple, and there was so much that happened and the significance of all these things that he did. A lot of times with the just the cleaning of the temple, people are thinking, oh yeah, he's cleaning out the money exchangers, this and that. No, the temple cleansing and the the with withering of the uh tree. What kind of tree was I totally blanked on the tree? Uh, are both connected in that he literally shut down the temple because it's not needed anymore. In a couple days it will not be needed anymore, and he is closing it down. That's why he cleaned it out. Right. There will no longer be the need for uh sacrifices. Right. Um, and so we always think of it as he's cleaning out the money changers and things like that. There's also there's uh uh issue of were there multiple temple cleansings, because the three the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, they have this one at the end, but John shows one that seems more earlier, and people are like, uh oh, are these the same or are these two different ones? So is there one or two? So is it just his routine? Uh yeah, or is this just something Jesus liked to go do that?

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Which would I mean, you know, sometimes you've got to clean it twice.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah, but man, there's so much involved in what Jesus does for several days. Then he in all that, as he's cleaned out the temple, people with illnesses, leprosy, all kinds of things are then coming to the temple to be healed by Jesus, and he is showing because those people normally weren't allowed in the temple, they had to, they were considered unclean. Well, now they're showing up to the temple to get healed by someone that has the power to heal, and only God can do that. And so there's this huge shift that's happening in the temple during this holy week, and the things that are this process that is changing and the things Jesus is turning over, it's huge significance that you you gotta go dig in and read and all these different things he does. Several parables, the things he says to the Pharisees, the things they ask him, the how he responds to them it's huge stuff. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Yeah, and so I mean, obviously, the temple, even as he's doing that, as you just said, he's not just talking about the physical temple that they're seeing, he is cleansing his temple, yeah, you know, his body. And they don't see that going on right then. But what do you mean? He's cleansing his body, like is that what you said? Like because it what he's doing is he's becoming he's the temple that he's he's going to become the temple, and so before that happens, he's cleansing it. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

And then shortly after Paul shows up, going back to Paul and says, Hey, guess what? Now you are the temple. You are the now lives in you, he resides in your heart. You are the carrier of the Holy Spirit, therefore you are the temple of God.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

But it just shows his distaste and disapproval of what they had done.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Oh man, turned it into. He called it a den of robbers. Right. Well, then we then that is significant in even in itself because you think of what is a den of robbers. We always think that people are robbing the temple. No, the Pharisees were the robbers and they felt safe in the temple doing things that weren't right. And so he says, You've turned this into because he's speaking to them when he says that. And so he's basically said, You've turned the temple into something that doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, people just come to the temple to give their sacrifice because they think they can check the box, they're good, and they go back to live in the same old way. Uh-uh. That's not how it works. And they feel comfortable and safe because you've allowed them to come do that and feel safe. You're the ones that are bad.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Saying it right to their faces.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

And I mean, it's but uh it goes into how much do we still do that today?

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Absolutely. Well, it kind of goes back to what we were just talking about. Very applicable. Do you go and ask for forgiveness and then just go right back to doing it without any conscience or guilt? Yeah, I'm just going to check my box to get my forgiveness and I can go back to doing what I'm doing. Not like that. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

So I mean, that's the holy week question then also becomes what part of your temple needs to be cleansed? So how are you treating God's temple?

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Or as I asked to follow up on that when our last worship night, what I preached on is what tables does Jesus need to flip in your temple? Yeah. I mean, what and we all, you know, when we think, oh, well, it's just the big temples, it's just the the alcoholism, the drug addiction, the pornography. No, Jesus flipped over the small table, too, right? And sometimes it's the small table that's the peskiest table. Yeah, I think the chosens shows him wrecking the pigeon. Well, which was the cheap which was kind of cheap liberal. That was like if you go into a flea market, that was the 99 cent or less table. Like, I mean, and you would think, well, that table doesn't matter because that's just cheap. But Jesus knew that sometimes it's the smallest table, the most insignificant, is the one that seems to not go away in our own temple. So um, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

Anyway, hey, you were so you were going back and you were trying to figure out what does how does Barabbas name sound? You were just doing that.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I looked it up on how to pronounce.com and it says um there's it has two pronunciations, Barabbas, and this is like the barabbas and bear a bus, but it says preferred pronunciation is barabbas, which is not really what you said. I mean Barabbas. Barabbas, Barabbas, Barabas.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

I think it is the way I was saying it.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

You were just using your B's in a very country version of I'm so I'm like on Sunday when I preach Easter, like I now need to go in the mirror and say Barabbas a million times. Because I've always said B. And I actually think that that's not the You can practice this.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

It's really simple. It's just three words. You are right. That's all you gotta say.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Well, that doesn't help me with the pronunciation. I did say, I mean, I more or less said you're right. I said I you're it's probably not Barabus.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

I mean, he's telling you you were right, or you he wants you to tell him he was right. He wants to hear that he's right.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

Pride always comes before the fall.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

I just no, he's not.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

Yeah, I think his is the preferred correct. I think mine is. I have heard, I'm not just making this up. I have heard a pastor in a sermon say Barabus. Like that's where I got that from. Um, but I I don't know. I'd have to find what pastor said that. I yeah, I don't know. I guess we probably heard both. We always thought it was. The difference is is like I'll admit that I'm pronouncing it right when you have a name that you can't pronounce, like you did a couple weeks ago. That you are or are not. You just you'll have the verse in big letters to let everyone know the you know, the son of so-and-so, and you'll just like whitewash that from the passage and you'll just move on from it.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

And it's like I'm teaching them how to read their Bible. Don't get tripped up on that. Yeah. I'm all about giving places and names, nicknames in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

I'm all about it. I'll go with Barabbas.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Okay.

unknown 53:30

Barabbas.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Barabbas or Barabbas? Barabbas. Barabas, Barabbas, Barabbas. Who cares?

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah. Bob. Whatever. All right. So the next day, you know, as we talk about the temple. Is that where we get the name? Wednesday. Barabas. What happened Wednesday? What happened Wednesday?

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Great one of my favorite movies. So when so then we get into Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Now it's getting good.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

It's a pretty busy day. I'm trying to think. Uh Wednesday, he's cleansed. Is that when he doesn't cleanse the temple on Wednesday? Wednesday, he's is he on the Mount of Olives at that point on Wednesday?

SPEAKER_02 54:03

So Wednesday, I've always took Wednesday, and you know, there's debates. No, I don't. There's no cheat sheet on here on Wednesday. This is just the different significances that I've found. But Wednesday, I've always understood that's when he was anointed by the perfume. Oh, okay. And then from that, Judas then betrays him. Yeah. Is what I always understood on Wednesday. And, you know, that significance again going forward is, you know, he cleansed the temple Monday, Tuesday, and then on Wednesday he's anointed. So him being the temple was anointed in that moment. Uh and so by the expensive perfume. And then Judas, some people believe it was in that moment. And I got what's the passage where you know he was upset because understanding how much that perfume would have cost, what they could have done with that perfume, the money and different things like that. That's a foreshadow. That the Satan used that as the tool to get to Judas to turn him out.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

To know that he was looking at it from a monetary standpoint, and Satan says, I now know your weak point.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Correct. Yeah, so that the amount the pure nard would have equated to was half of or it was double what it took to feed 5,000 people. So they called it a year's worth of wages. But in the the amount it cost to feed the 5,000 was half of what that bottle of nard was. It's crazy. It's a lot of denarii. It's a lot of denarii. Yeah, denarii? Denari. No, we're not doing that again.

SPEAKER_02 55:29

And so we see that, you know, and then so Judas in that moment he goes to the officials during that time, the Jewish officials, and starts developing the plan to uh turn Jesus in and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 55:42

So I'm going to my cheat sheets. Because there's so much that happens day two and three. That is a lot. And we kind of day two is a real busy day.

SPEAKER_02 55:50

We we went kind of fast through it, but all because I'm kind of trying to get to the point of because isn't it's either day maybe it's day four, nothing really happens.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

So you kind of like take a chill and rest on day four, I think, which would have been Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

That's Palm Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. One of the days is Wednesday would have been pretty chill. That's where he's outside, gets anointed by the perfume, and Judas.

SPEAKER_01 56:13

Because before Good Friday, we have So yeah, it would have been Wednesday.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Yeah. Yeah. And then the the fifth day, because again, I think this is where our calendar gets messed up because we always think of Monday as one, Tuesday as two. But really, Sunday was one, Monday was two, Sunday was the first day of the week, Monday was second, Tuesday was the third, Wednesday was the fourth, fifth day of the week is the Lord's Supper. And I think we oftentimes get past this because we don't understand what it took like or looked like to have that Passover meal or the protocol of the Passover setter. And that again, this is going back to Rabbi Jason and how he explains Oh yeah, Rabbi Jason. Yeah, the he explains the process. He explains the process of what you had to do to prepare a Passover meal. And I thought this was very cool to learn about of what actually went into place is for each Passover, the person hosting the Passover had to go and sacrifice a lamp. But whenever they made that sacrifice, they had to have in mind every person that they was going to be at the Passover meal. And so they already had a new the people that were going to be sitting around that table. And so they would they didn't go sacrifice a lamp, they put blood on the doorpost, um, and then eat yeah, eat the special meal and then remember their deliverance forever. And the connection he made, which I thought was super cool, was Jesus was both the sacrifice as the lamp and he was the person that was hosting the meal. So what does that mean is whenever you've heard it said that you've heard pastors say when he died on the cross, he was thinking of you and me. No, he literally had to as part of the Passover, et cetera. Like he had to have us in mind because he was making that sacrifice for us. Okay, and so literally he had us in mind when he was hanging on the cross because he had to as part of the Passover connection and everything going on as the sacrificial lamb. And so he had us in mind whenever that that took place. Um, and then it says, What are we gonna do whenever he comes back? We're gonna have that meal with him again. So literally, as he's the sacrificial lamb, he's having us in mind. Yeah, I thought that was really cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, and so as we get to the actual Passover, like um they're looking for him. He's got an active warrant out for his arrest. Like, I mean, people want him dead, and he gets into here with his with his disciples. And of course, we've heard this preached and said ad nozim of okay, the Passover. What why, you know, what did Passover mean? Well, it was the angel of death passing over, like all of that stuff. But what are some of the are there any intricacies in terms of the actual Passover meal that either of you have that you think are not often preached or spoken of when it comes to this moment in Scripture?

SPEAKER_00 58:58

And that it's not really significant intricacies, but Jesus had no home, and he hosted it, and the way the chosen portrays it is he tells a couple of his disciples, hey, go to this place and prepare it and get it ready, and they don't know where they're going. So they've never been to this place. Whose house was it? And they knew they were coming.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

I've all when I read this story, and I know this isn't probably accurate, but this is my own, I've always imagined it like they're just going down, like almost in today's world, like an old building that they just find, or like some abandoned storage unit, and they just go in here and say, hey, we're gonna do it here, because again, Jesus is not, I mean, there are people actively gunning for him in this moment. And so I always just just picture them just walking down and saying, Oh, okay, anyone home? Okay, let's go in here. Yeah, and they just go in, or you know, like almost like a factory, if you will. Like, okay, let's let's is anyone in here? You remember as a kid, you'd walk and you see an old factory, and you and your friends go in there and you look around. Like, I've always pictured it like happening in that type of environment. But again, that's just me reading into how I read the passage.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Okay. I don't know. I just kind of I would thought it was a home, some some home, but somebody knew they were coming. It never mentions who. Jesus is the host. The disciples don't even know this location or these people. Yeah, that seemed kind of like, well, then who is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

And the disciples networked, they knew people, so it very well could have been, hey, uh, you know, John, you know a guy, okay. We're gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

Remember that place we went to back in the blah blah blah? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Oh, yeah, we're going there. Okay, yeah, I remember then. Matthew Levi, you're a tax collector. Do you have a tax collector friend we can stop by or nothing? Yeah. It's done.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

It's just very strange and mysterious location. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

That is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

I never thought the people were expecting them.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Yeah, they knew they were coming. So it couldn't have been just some abandoned house because there were people there waiting. So you wonder who is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

I don't know. At least one person in the house was expecting. And that's what the chosen kind of depicts it like. See, I've never seen it. I this little boy that's or the younger guy in the house that's running around getting everything set up and prepared. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

It's kind of fascinating to me. It's kind of mysterious, if you ask me. Yeah, no, it is for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:01

Yeah. Uh, but yeah, he goes in and from that moment, obviously, you know, Judas after the Passover meal uh goes and that's when he seeks an opportunity to betray him. And they go to the garden in Gethsemane. And then how does he get real? How does he betray him? He betrays him with a kiss. Yeah. Yeah. And uh then, you know, from there, obviously he goes and he faces his trial. And but man, you skipped over so many.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:25

Okay, so but here's a question. What why was it what why what was the significance of the kiss?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

What why why did uh that's how they would know who Jesus was when Judas kissed Jesus on the cheek. Then everybody that's with him, who are all these chief priests and at least 500 Roman soldiers. But then the best part is is when Jesus kind of throws down the hey, who you looking for, and they say, We're looking for Jesus and Nazareth, and he says, I am, and then they throw in he, and then they all drop 500 plus dudes drop to the ground when he says his name. Yeah, and we skip over that verse like nothing, but he says his name and they drop like flies. They had to have been like, What in the world just happened? They get back up, he waits for them to collect themselves, and he says, Who are you looking for again? We're looking for it's like repeat, the broken record, and he's okay, yeah. And that's me. You want another 500? You just want to kill everyone? Yeah. But it was just crazy how that's one of those little one of my favorite verses that we just cruise right over that has some humongo significance. He says his real name, I am, because he is God, and they fall to the ground and just like lose it for a minute. Yeah. And then they're kind of like, What just happened? I mean, if that I was in those in that moment of one of those Roman soldiers or one of the Pharisees, I'd be like, Oh poop.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

I would say, Don't you dare ask him again. Yeah. I don't want to be the next one to drop.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

But they don't, that doesn't click. Yeah. That he says his name, and we all drop to the ground kind of in bewilderment, maybe unconscious for a second, and they just get right back up and we're still looking for this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

Which by the way, and I know we we've already used a lot of time, is such a great theological point when people say the reason I don't follow Jesus is because he hasn't revealed himself to me. And the fact of the matter is it goes back to them. Some of them would have said, Oh, we just don't have enough proof. And Jesus is like, hey, look around the room. Like, you do you not see the power that I have? And I think that that is just the the selective uh pieces of evidence that we want to see that revealed Jesus as Messiah. They had the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

But there you say that there because Judas would have known him, known what he looked like, and he doesn't recognize him. They're asking, have you seen this Jesus of Nazareth or looking for him? And he goes, That's me. Judas isn't going, oh yeah, it's him right here. Yeah. He doesn't do that in that passage. Yeah. He's he's like he disguised himself somehow to even Judas, who would be like, Do you think he just did it to save his own skin? Who? Judas or Jesus? Judas. No, Judas didn't recognize him. I don't. He doesn't, because why did Jesus have to Judas should have just strolled right up to him? This is him right here. This is that's him right there. Let's go get him. No, they have to walk up and they ask, Jesus asks him, Who are you looking for? Yeah. And they go, We're looking for Jesus and why wouldn't they have said you? We're looking for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

So the question is, Judas who walked with Jesus, talked with Jesus, ate with Jesus, slept around Jesus, all of these.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

And they're like, and then they get back up and he goes, Who are you looking for again? And they're like, Jesus of Nazareth.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

And he's like, That's the question is, if that is uh Judas genuinely not seeing and realizing the question is like It's kind of fascinating. Is that amnesia? Like what in the world happened to Judas?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

I think it's I think it's I don't know whether what the Lord was doing in Judas's mind in that moment, but I think it comes back to Judas doesn't get the credit for it because Jesus had to turn himself in. Yeah, it it if it was maybe that's why he disguised himself as a display. And so yeah, or you know, maybe not not wearing a disguise, but you know, Judas, even in that moment, full of whatever, was unable to step in to be able to do that. And you know, obviously he does still kiss him after he reveals the second time, but it had to be Jesus handing himself over. Yeah. And because he he is the one that sacrificed. And all prophet, all prophets.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

There's also significant significance when Peter chopped off some dude's ear and literally Jesus picks it up and puts it back on and he's healed immediately, and they're still just like what is the passage that says not that he was an un when we talk about what Jesus looked like, not that he was unimposing, but there's a passage in one of the gospels that says like he was just a normal looking, like he wasn't extraordinary. Yeah, he just kind of blended in, and so I don't know, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

Yeah. Yeah, so you know, he goes there, he then he goes on to trial, and he we believe he goes on first to Jewish trial, right? And he he stands before them and chief priests, yeah. They're wanting him to give a defense, and they're they're asking him all these different questions. The chief priest Ananias. Right. Yeah, and they're you know, they're asking him all these different things. And Jesus will not respond until he finally says what?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

He says his name again, or he blasphemies himself. He basically equates himself to God. Then they say guilty. Guilty. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Then they take him, take him to Rome, uh Pilate, where he faces trial there. Pilate then does what? He's already talked to Herod. He's already I thought, yeah, he sends him to Herod. I think Pilate sends him to Herod. Yep. Then Herod sends him back to Pilate, and that's where the judgment is brought down, or he gives them the option, hey, who do you want? Do you want Jesus or Barabbas? Or the other Jesus. I'm almost positive that he had Jesus. Jesus Barabbas is like, yeah. Do you want Jesus? Yeah. Or Jesus Barabbas. And some translations say that. Yeah. And they're like, we want Barabbas. We want the insurrectionist murder.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:42

And this, the equivalent I always give it is you have a serial killer who's on death row, and you have someone who has some non-capital crime.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:52

And for the crowd to literally say, hey, that guy killed 12 people and butchered them, yeah, let him out of death row. That was that was how badly they won't be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

But not just that, it was people who not just a criminal against killing people, but going to try to overthrow the government. And interruption. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

Who was an enemy to the government, the society, individuals to say, yeah, I'm willing to risk the lives of my own household to have this guy free if it means that Jesus is the one on that cross.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

And Pilate was saying, and Pilate was it it was their tradition that they released one prisoner. And that is why it came down to that moment. And he gave them the option. And once they chose that and they said, Crucify Jesus, crucify, crucify, they he then turns them over where he receives you know the lashings. And you know brutal. And they were really good at what they did, but oftentimes they those Roman guards they were drunk whenever they were doing this. And they would be intoxicated uh as they were taking it out on them. And we hear, oh, he was received 40 lashes. Well, that was just ju Jewish law was like, hey, you 39. Rome wasn't following that. Yeah. And what we know is like they had these the whips that they were hitting them with, it was probably two Roman soldiers, and they were taking turns. One, and then while the other one after he hit, and as he was wearing back, the other one would take it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:14

Over and over and over. Yeah. And they and it's not just a leather whip, they had bone and different shards of metal and things like that sewn into the leather straps that would dig in. And one of the best ways to go learn about what Jesus went through in this moment is in the Lee Strobel's case for Christ. Most people did not survive this process because that whipping would dig in down to the bone, sometimes spinal cord, I mean the bleeding. They usually died from that process. And or the body was in such a severe state of shock. Yeah. They couldn't do anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

NT Wright, who's a New Testament historian, theologian, he he writes about this and says that oftentimes in Roman crucifixions, the person they put on the cross was a corpse. There was no life. And so then everything that is done is simply for humiliation because it's it's a moot point. The person's already dead. Which goes back to the argument of who survived Roman crucifixions? Could Jesus have survived and then just left the tomb? Oh nobody survived. Typically, the pregame show is when people died, let alone actually being put on the cross.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

Put on the cross. Yeah, so then you think then Jesus actually carried the cross for a while and then stumbled, couldn't we? Wearing a crown of thorns. Crown of thorns.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

In our mind, he probably didn't carry the full cross. He probably carried the beam.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

The beam. Still, it's gonna be super heavy. And just imagine putting anything on your back after it's been shredded. About 200 pounds. Yeah, 200 pounds of not soft wood. It's gonna be prickly or splintery on just bare flesh. I mean, not your skin, but open, I mean full on. He is like fillet open.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

And all he is hearing is crucify him. I mean, he is hearing insulting.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

He puts on his, and then he's also wearing a crown of thorns, so it's digging into the things where he's already been beaten. But then as he's climbing, if you ever put anything on your to carry it around your sh on your shoulders, what's it gonna do to anything on your head? Just dig it in. He's gonna just dig it in, which is a crown of thorns. And oh by the way, he's also gonna climb up a hill 600 meters.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:19

Yeah. And then your sweat's getting into the open window. I mean, it's bad. And so then he stumbles, and then he drags some poor guy, random guy out of the crowd. Here you carry it. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, and then they sign somebody tries to give him a drink that it would have been a like a drug type drink for him to numb him, or he wouldn't hopefully feel as much pain. And Jesus denies that. Yeah, he knows what that is, says nope. He denies any chance for pain relief and keeps on going. It's crazy what he went to.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:51

That's why I go back to. And the thing is, he really did have all of us in mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:55

Oh man. If you can read the Lee Strobels, when that doctor is explaining to him what Christ, because he's trying to prove that Christ faked his death, and this doctor's like, there ain't no way.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

And in a case for the quote, the book, the document that he uses is from 1978, the American Medical Association, on the physical death of Jesus Christ, that the American Medical Association did, and they go through and what they determine is and and I talked about this a couple of Easters ago, but there is no plausible way that not just Jesus, but anybody would have survived what he did.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

But if you can read that without getting a little bit emotional, thinking about what you just said, he was doing that with us in mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:37

You might need to check your heart. Watch the Passion of the Christ. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

I watched some awesome thing, fascinating things that happened when they were making that movie, when they were about to do that scene where they were going to nail him. He got struck by lightning multiple times.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:50

Well, I watched Passion of the Christ as an atheist, and I cried. Really? As an atheist. Wow. Seeing what was happening because that really happened to people. Because, yes. And so, like it just the idea of what Jesus went through. We're not just talking about a story in a book. We are talking about historical reality.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

So the word excruciating was invented to remotely describe what someone felt being on a cross. Yeah. The word excruciating was invented for this very thing. Yeah. And it's a level of suffering. Yeah, and it still doesn't really paint a picture of what it was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:26

So going from there. Yeah, so he gets hung on a cross where they put two nails in his wrist.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:32

Well, and it's through this right here. And there's that nerve that runs through the old nerve.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:38

So on Sunday, I'm actually I'm taking it's from the American Medical Association. I'm not going to tell the story again, but I'm going to take the picture because they actually have a graphic of what it would have looked like of the wrist and the muscles and the nail that is speared through. It goes about eight inches in in basically all of the different pain nerves that are being hit in there, that it would have been the most excruciating pain known to man when it comes to these specific parts right here.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:05

Yeah. So they talk about the funny bone, right? You get you ever hit that? Yeah. And you're like, and it gets you just like, whoa. They like amplify that times 10%. The ulnar, yeah, because you're not just hitting it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:16

You're you're you're penetrating it. Yeah. And that in the American Medical Association in there, they say that of all the pain, painful things of the crucifixion, that would have been the one where you literally would have passed out. It hurt so bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:27

Have you seen the pictures of the nails they would use? Yeah, they didn't look like little nails. I think of them like railroad tires. Literally it's what they are. But they considered those more valuable than the person they were killing, so they would save those. Oh, and they would reuse them over and have and they have some like artifacts now, and almost all of them are bent. And they were almost goodness. And they're at and the question becomes why would they be bent? And many people believe is because those that were still alive up on the cross, in order to make it even more suffering, they would twist and bend the nail while it was in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

So if you wouldn't have died on the cross, you would have died of tetanus. Yes. Or some kind of fungus that was grown on there from other people.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:07

All of that happened, and yet he still has an awful conversation with another thing. With two thieves. Yeah. He still has he still has the nerve to say, you know, well, says quite a bit up on the cross, but talks to him, says, Hey, today you'll be with me in paradise. Father, why have you forsaken me? And father forgive them, for they do not know what they do.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

In John 19, 30, that is when he before he takes his last breath and says, Hold on, Totelestine. I thought it was my retention. No, Tedalestine. Tedalesti. You stole my thunder. I've been waiting to say when you're making fun of Hamide today, Burning. I've been practicing Tetelestine. I've been reading the guy that Easter 2024 completely butchered. The main the whole sermon is getting to the point of Tetelestine. And he says, Tedalestine. And uh Matt Thomas is another trip. And I love that Matt Thomas is the one that corrected you why. Because Matt Thomas, what tattoo does he have right here? Totalestine. This dude's like, nope, you pronounce you mispronounced it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:07

Well, you I was about to have redemption, but you didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

John 19, 30 is But here's what's one of all the things we've talked about. That's the one thing you guys were like, I couldn't wait to tell about that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:16

But this was one of those aha moments. And it's one of those things you know, but until you like think about it this way, it's like, oh my gosh, that makes so sense. And you know, the the cross, it happened on the sixth day. Jesus died on the sixth day, which is the same day man was created and then fell. And so him dying on the sixth day, now he's undone the effects of the fall, which is death. That's cool. And then you not heard that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

And then you get to day seven, what does he do? After the fall, he rests. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:44

And so, but his wounds appear through hands through his eye and he rests. Connects back to the creation of Adam and Eve. And how God created Adam and Eve. From the rib. Yeah, and so going back to the rib, it's also significant where was he stabbed when he was up on the cross?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:00

Because then it's it says his side, but it comes out with blood and water, which would have been around the heart.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:06

But but it went through his rib. It penetrated. Yeah, they believe it's like between like five and six. Okay. So they went through his rib. Who was the first one to send in the garden? Eve. Eve, where was Eve created out of?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:19

The other half of Adam. The rib created out of the woe of the man.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:22

So the same place, you know, like he was stabbed up there. You know, that kind of represents again where the fall of it all came from. So like all of that connecting the dots, you know, this past week as I've been studying in the Holy Week, it's like, holy cow. You know, he that really is. That's ultimatism. Ultimate reverse reversal.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:39

Holy Jesus. Not a holy cow. Yeah. Yeah. The holiness of Jesus ultimately. Holy cow we circles back to Jesus. Wow. Yeah. It tells a story. They do worship cows in Buddhism or in Hinduism. Hinduism, not Buddhism. Buddhism doesn't worship cows. I knew what you meant, though. Yeah. Yeah, Hinduism.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

So, yeah, absolutely. And um, you know, we're so then there's a significance of not breaking his legs. That would have finished somebody off if they still had lived. Somehow they're still alive. They break the legs because they push, because you you basically die of suffocation because you collapse on yourself by hanging. So people even though you have the other spike through your ankles, which is another nerve ending, just like your wrists, they would somehow push on that to try and take a breath. And just why you would want to continue to live on, I don't know. I guess still suffocation is not the greatest way to go. Uh, and that's why they came along to break the leg so you couldn't push anymore to try and breathe. They wanted you to feel everything. Yeah. Just so then Jesus already died before they had to do that. So no broken bones.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:45

So Jesus says it is finished, paid in full, he breathes his last. Yeah. And we we complete the crucifixion.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

And the sky grows dark, there's an earthquake, the tail is torn. Now, then it's confusing on Matthew's. Is that when the graves were open and dead people rose, or is that when Jesus rose? Because it all kind of condensed right there together. Yeah. But that does happen. But we see God will come out of the grave. We see God the Father.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:10

And I always use this when I'm dealing with grief, is that the relatability of God the Father in heaven, yes, he's God, but there's still the idea that he just saw his only begotten son. Like God had a front row seat. God the Father had a front row seat to what was happening to his son and what happens in response. The skies become dark. It's almost in a way like God is grieving what he saw that happened on this earth, and because of that, we see the sun go away.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:39

So in the moment, that'll you see who was claiming to be King of Kings, they even made fun of him for it. Yeah. He dies, and then some crazy, you know, uh natural type things start happening in that instant where it goes dark in the middle of the day. You think there's some repentance there? And then there's an earthquake. There had to be some uh pooping of the pants going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:04

I just always imagine like if you if you like let's say you're unfaithful with your spouse and you go and you do and it's like sunny and 80, and you walk in and then you walk out, and the skies are just like pitch black, and you're like, I think I screwed up.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

I need to go to church.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

Like, I probably shouldn't have done that.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:20

So imagine how people, what are people thinking in that moment and how that's all going down. I don't know. Maybe he is maybe he is the king of kings. Well, supposed now, one of the guards or one of the Roman soldiers there, there's supposedly this story, and I can't remember his name, where he was the front row seat Roman soldier that witnessed this, experienced that, and then he is just like, oh no. Yeah, this guy was for real. He has a change of life. Um, I'd have to go dig, I've got it somewhere. I want to say it starts with a T. But, anyways, he then wants to go, he changes his life, and he starts to tell people his experience and that no, this was the real deal. And then they try and shut him up, they blind him, they try and do all kinds of things too. He doesn't give up, he keeps preaching and telling about his story of his experience of Christ. But I have it, I gotta go look.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:09

But that was all going on in physical what they could see, but we also know in that moment the veil was torn.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

And what does that mean? It from the top down. So, what's the significance of that? The veil, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:19

So that that veil, you know, it separated, you know, the whole, the holy of holies from everything else. So it separated where people didn't have direct access to God.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:26

Only the priests that had done everything right could get into that. And even then, they'd have a rope tied around with bells on, yeah, and if they screwed up and died, they could drag them out of there.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:36

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:37

So it was a very sacred, that's where the Ark of the Covenant was, um, cherubim, the mercy seat, all that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:42

Yep. In the Holy of Holies. You know, he tears it from the top down, it had to be from the top down because then nobody else could have done it. And so they're seeing that happen from the top down, and now what it is saying is what you were saying, you don't need a priest. Sorry, I jumped in. No, you don't need anybody. Now we all have that. Direct access to God. Direct access to him. So very significant what takes place there. So then obviously we have Saturday. And then if you want to know what happened Sunday, come, that's come back on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

Yeah. And that's where people like, so he was they some people like to misconstrue. So he was dead for three days and just says on the third day he raised the side.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:14

Someone asked me that re the third day, so yeah, I mean he dies. Three full days, and then the third day he heard it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:20

I I've uh I've uh put it put heard it put this way, and I thought it was a great explanation why we consider it three days. And so when somebody passes away, so you know, your dad, you know, he just passed away. What date did he pass away? What was the date? March nineteenth. Yeah, right. So it was March 19th, and is that 422? 442. No, 422, yeah. So but when you talk about the day, you know, he passed, you just say it was March 19th. Yeah. Right? You're you're not giving that it was the end of the day. You know, we try to get technical and say, oh, he died counting the hours. Yeah, Friday afternoon. No, he died on he died on Friday. Well, and even to make it there's day one, day two.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:59

Well, to make it even more simple, if I if I text you at 11:30 tonight and say, hey, I gotta go to the doctor tomorrow, my doctor's appointment at 9 a.m., you're not gonna say, well, that's not tomorrow. I mean that's not 24 hours away. That's not 24 hours, it's the next morning. It's like, well, it's a day ahead. Or if I say I'm going to the doctor on Tuesday, I if it's it doesn't matter. So yeah, it's it's it is the third day on the calendar, therefore on the third day.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:19

Well, I actually I'd have to go read it, but I think scripture is specific on the third day, not three days later. No, it doesn't matter. It says on the third day.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:27

We we take that and say three days later, yeah. But the scripture always says on the third day.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:32

So you count day six, you count day seven, and then it'd be day eight or the first day of the week. The quick note I'll make on the resurrection is everything that happens happens on a significant holiday and sick with a significant purpose. Obviously, you know, Friday, Passover, that's when you know he it takes place for him. And then that Sunday, uh, that resurrection, it was the festival of what? Or the feast of what? The feast of first fruits. And now that is serving as a greater resurrection of the heart of harvest to come that uh you know he's the first firstborn among tying it back to Paul. Yep, tying it back to Paul in Colossians where he says he is the head of the body of the church, he's the beginning in the firstborn from among the dead. He's the first fruits of the resurrection that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:17

My last question why is Easter always on a different day every year? Hey, but this is a good question. This is a very good question. Because Christmas is on a any old day, December 25th.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:26

Yeah, great, cool point to make. Many scholars believe that the actual day that Jesus was crucified was April 3rd, 80 33. And therefore his resurrection was on April 5th, 80 33. They and they are able to narrow that down because of when Pilate was in office, when the Passover would have taken place when Pilate was in office on the specific days with it being in springtime, and they're able to narrow that down. It either happened to have an AD 26 or AD 33 to make it all line up. Obviously, knowing Jesus' birth story and where it happened, we go towards the AD 33, and they're able to narrow that day down to April 3rd is when he passed. April 5th is resur is uh Easter Sunday. What is this Friday? April 3rd, and then Sunday, which is the first time. So this year would be the most April 3rd event. It is.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

So he could come back on Sunday or in 2033.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:19

2033, April 3rd, April 20,000 years. April 3rd would be Easter Sunday 2033 is April 3rd, which is when he marked that day.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:30

Okay. Because that's also there's a lot that is uh around, not to get on another conversation, but that somewhere in the 33s of 2033, anywhere from 30 to 35, call it 33. Uh there's a number of things pointing to that that kind of time frame. And why not? Jordan's gonna be taking out his retirement spending. Jordan Jordan doesn't plan on being here after the. Well, Jesus is coming back is my retirement, so it's a good retirement policy.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:59

Yeah. Anyway, holy week, a lot there, so powerful stuff. Uh really cool how you know everything connects. It's obviously an emotional week as we you just get to dive in, just reflect, and remember everything that Christ has done for us. And so we're excited about Easter Sunday. It was probably our longest podcast, but I think doing Holy Week due diligence.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:17

Let's do this quick. This is gonna be short. Once I realize we're always the longest.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:20

Once I realize we're breaking down day by day, there's no way we can do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:24

Which I think I think it's worth it because understanding the days of the Holy Week, it's important for us to stop and remember.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:28

So much significance.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:30

With that being said, come and join us on Easter Sunday, 8, 9, 30, 11 o'clock. We're gonna have a lot of fun. Look forward to our conversation next week on the Make Heaven Crowded podcast. Until then, we'll see you later. Make heaven. Oh, make heaven crowded.