Make Heaven Crowded

The 5 Keys to Discipleship & responding to Hate Comments | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 28

• TeamFBC • Season 1 • Episode 28

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we get practical and real about two things every believer will face: how to make disciples and how to handle criticism—especially online.

What does true discipleship actually look like beyond just going to church? How do we intentionally help people grow in their faith? And on the flip side, how should Christians respond when faced with hate, backlash, or negativity—especially in a digital world?

We dive into questions like:

• What are the 5 key elements of real, biblical discipleship?
• How do you move from just attending church to actually making disciples?
• How should Christians respond to hate comments or criticism online?

This episode is all about living out your faith with clarity and maturity—both in relationships and in the public space. Because following Jesus isn’t just about what we believe—it’s about how we live, lead, and respond.

🎙️ Series: Made New
📖 Topics: Discipleship, Spiritual Growth, Evangelism, Online Culture
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to the Make Heaven Crowded podcast. I'm Pastor Jordan, joined with Pastor Luke and Pastor Roger. Welcome. Salute. You preached yesterday.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we did. Salutations. Yep, we uh kicked off a new sermon series called Made New. Um we're excited about that.

SPEAKER_03

What are your pronouns this morning?

SPEAKER_02

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03

Well, because he said you preached yesterday and you said we did, and then you said we kicked off.

SPEAKER_02

So like I'm speaking to us as a church.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but you we I say I was saying we preached a message yesterday.

SPEAKER_02

We kicked off a new sermon series.

SPEAKER_03

Just making sure the pronouns are in place.

SPEAKER_02

But I would say I represent the church, and so it would it's not just me, it's we.

SPEAKER_03

Gotcha. Or they or them. We don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, very good. Well, you did preach yesterday, and we as a church did start off a new sermon series yesterday.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, we it's called Made New, and it's gonna be a lot of fun because we're gonna be going through our fresh start material. Yeah. And uh we're not obviously can't go as deep as we would um that you guys are able to do in the class. I think right now you're currently going through Fresh Start with a group of people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02

We are we just finished week eight out of a 10-week and we do that every uh start of every spring, start of every fall. And so it's really great stuff, especially coming off of Easter and what it means to look like to be a follower of Christ and be made new in that way. And so right now, if that's something that you're wanting to get in, if you haven't been through it, you just need to sign up. And you can do that through our team at PC.info uh because you guys go a lot deeper there and the next group will start meeting in the fall. But yeah, it was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So uh for some people this may seem very basic um in terms of theology, but I mean our theology is kind of basic. It was Charles Spurgeon that said you could summarize my theology in six words or four words. Jesus died for me. Like that's my theology. And so sometimes I think as believers, it's like, okay, we already know this stuff, like we've already heard this stuff. But I think just taking these very, very simple ideas, and you've seen this in in in uh Fresh Start, where you don't have just brand new believers, but you have people that have been in church for a long time, but you still have those moments where light bulbs go off for people that have been in church forever.

SPEAKER_01

I'd say the people that have been in church forever have the light, I see them with the light bulbs going off more than the new believers.

SPEAKER_03

Why is that, I wonder?

SPEAKER_01

Um, because I think they've been searching for the what am I supposed to do their whole life and it's never been explained to them. Uh, I've had several people just say that. I've just never had it explained to me that way. And that's really what led to the progression of the lessons for me was just the it was laid kind of laid on my heart that you know, I wonder if people just need to understand what am I supposed to do now? And and I was really positioning from the new believer standpoint of okay, I've just done this, I've been baptized, I've accepted Christ, now what? And so from that perspective, here's the now what. This is what this all means, this is what things should start to look like for you, what you need to start doing, uh, and understand really uh what you need to understand. What is this new self, the old self? What uh how should I be changed in a what should I be doing differently? But what's interesting is although the new believers are like, okay, that makes sense, the old believers that I'm and I'm not just talking a couple years, sometimes a lifetime of ever since they were a kid kind of going to church, they're like, Oh, that totally makes sense now. Yeah. Because there's so much of that that's just kind of hidden in the Bible throughout various letters or different books. And when you kind of pull it all out and put it in a nice progression of you're starting here, where we start with what is a Christian disciple like you went through yesterday, and the next one is assurance of salvation. And so we do some foundational things from assurance to identity to exchange life, and then we shift gears into living a Christ-like life. Yeah. So again, so many people are asking that. I just don't understand what's God's what God's will for me is. That's what we went through yesterday. And it the basic one is that you believe in Jesus. Yeah, it's just like Charles Spurgeon. You can I can tell you my thought theology in four words. That's everybody's, that's God's will for everyone. That's your start. First will accept Christ. Second, will now go treat people nicely with respect. And he gets into that, and I think it's it's either first or second Thessalonians. I can't remember top of my head, but yeah. He breaks down kind of this, and that is God's will for you, and he goes through a variety of things. Um, but yeah, it's just this long progression that we kind of land the plane on. Uh, now what do you do with it? Yeah. You go do good things with people and love people.

SPEAKER_03

So Luke's message, because that reminds me of a study I I read in a a sermon um years ago, they asked Christians, define disciple and or discipleship. And approximately half of Christians could not actually define what a disciples are. I'm literally Sunday. We talk about day one VBS stuff. Like what is a disciple? Half of Bible-believing Christians, according to Barnett Group, could not say this is what I believe a disciple is or what discipleship is. So again, a very simple concept, and we take it for granted that, oh, everyone knows this stuff. And the fact is is that many people don't, which goes perfectly into kind of what you talked about last Sunday.

SPEAKER_01

I would say that so many don't because they just show up on a Sunday morning and they get a one-off sermon that's based on one verse, and someone's able to preach for an hour on a verse, and they don't still get the full picture. They get something, a little bite of something each Sunday, but it's still not the full picture of what am I supposed to be doing every day of the week, every hour of my life? How am I supposed to be living on a day-to-day and minute-to-minute basis? We don't explain that stuff at all.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's what I said yesterday is you think coming to church on a Sunday morning that that's discipleship. Yeah, it's not disappointing. And that's not discipleship at all. That that's just preaching to worship. Yeah, exactly. And I love the analogy of really a Sunday morning is a gathering of believers. It's like the huddle, you know, in football, it's the huddle where the team is coming together, we're getting on the same page, on the same play, so we can go out and run it that week. And it it's to yes to help encourage to equip and to reach lost people, but it's us getting on the same page as we go out and we minister people throughout the week. That's not discipleship. Discipleship, and we are a church that we have a strong discipleship model, uh, but it's not just on a Sunday morning. You know, that we would say that's just a start, but then you know, that's why we have growth track. That's what leads into fresh start. And then hopefully that by that point they're serving and then we're getting them plugged into a small group. And so that we have a pretty intense discipleship method or strategy for people to follow, but it takes more than just being on a Sunday morning. And that's what preparing for this when people are made new, and you talked about that. Like, what is a Christian disciple? It is somebody that's why we started out in Romans chapter 8, because a Christian disciple is somebody who has received the power of the Holy Spirit, they've been transformed by Jesus and living by the Spirit, not the flesh. And whenever that happens, you are then deemed, because of what happened in the empty tomb as a child of God. And when you are a child of God, you are also a disciple. That means you're a follower of Jesus. That means you follow Jesus, you've been changed by Jesus, and now you're going out to live like Jesus. And what I thought was fun preparing the message was we hear about it, and we know Jesus teaches on discipleship. So it was fun using the fresh start material to gather together. Here's the five things that Jesus teaches about Christian discipleship. He says a lot about disciples, but he teaches directly to the disciples those five things. These are the five things that he spells out for us. Um and and that's what was fun part is bringing all that together.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty much lesson one. Yeah. Man, I need to get I need to get it. I opened up my lesson and I had it sitting there, and I I'd showed I'd show Heather, hey, this is what the next one should be. I need to get, and sure enough, it was.

SPEAKER_03

So I'm doing some obviously I'm next Sunday, I need to get a copy of that. I didn't even think about it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel because, like I'm telling you right there, it was it it was really good. And so I thought it was fun to dive into that about Jesus' five teachings of discipleship to make it easy, compact, and for people to kind of digest and and see it and understand it and then go out to live.

SPEAKER_01

I told the class to pay attention because I told them that what we were preaching on or you're preaching on, I said, be pay close attention to how Luke says discipleship. And so Did he pronounce the C or the P or the at the end is more the I okay? Do I not say it right? I thought you were gonna say disciple.

SPEAKER_03

I see. Yeah, I've I've yeah, I've I've done that. Discipleship or I've done that before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So when you went to that too. Huh?

SPEAKER_02

What?

SPEAKER_03

What'd you say?

SPEAKER_02

I just said they do that too. They do what they do. You said they if I were to take a P output of T. Oh, yeah, I see. Yeah, we're disciples do that as well.

SPEAKER_03

We're humans. Yeah, we're all humans. We're all disappointed.

SPEAKER_02

It's like uh my niece asked me the question at Easter. Uh her Bible question for the week was Did Jesus poop? That's the question. I think there's a great question.

SPEAKER_03

That uh that was I always talk about the middle school boys that we had a one hour small group, and that's all we talked about. And you know what? It wasn't the end of the world to me because I'm like, at least they're asking questions and understanding the the humanity versus God and all of that.

SPEAKER_02

Like maybe maybe there's a probably the second best question they could have asked, like number two, but other than that, yeah, good questions.

SPEAKER_01

Get it. I went and double checked. Uh 1 Thessalonians 5, 12 through 24 is God's will. What's God's will for just about everybody? Yeah. So I couldn't remember it off the top of my head. So I went to the first one.

SPEAKER_03

First Thessalonians. Thessalonians five.

SPEAKER_01

Five. Starting in verse twelve, most people start in verse uh sixteen where it says, Rejoice always, pray continually, give things to I started in verse twelve.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, sixteen is usually the one that's on the wall. Like that's the I think they leave a lot out when they start there. For sure. So as you preached on discipleship, what uh specifically anything that you you want to expand on or address.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there was a few that I I left out, but I kind of want to like run through them really quick. And Jordan, anything that I wasn't able to expand on on Sunday that maybe need to go deeper, this is where I think you can also speak in. And so the first one of all obviously is a disciple has to have Jesus first in their life. Jesus has to be number one. And honestly, if you put Jesus number one truly in your life, everything else is going to follow. And so the other four are going to become a lot easier. Um, in that we talked about in Mark 8, where Jesus instructs the disciples and the crowd, anybody who wants to follow me, they have to do these three things. They have to deny themselves, they have to pick up their cross, they have to follow me. And I believe as Christians, we jumped to that point, that portion of follow me, but we're unwilling to do the first two things of denying, um, deny and pick up the cross and follow me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the pick up the cross and follow me is uh really difficult because it what people don't understand is it means you need to be dead to this world. Uh so when someone was carrying the cross, it's kind of like the uh the Green Mile, where there have you seen that movie, The Green Mile, where Dead Man Walking. Oh thanks. Yeah, it's a great movie. Um, where John Coffey's going to the chair, and the what's his name? Percy, the real difficult jailer guy, he's yelling out dead man walking. And that's basically, although you're alive, you're a dead man because you're about to die. Um, and so that's what how Jesus wants us to live to this world is live dead to this world. Uh, don't follow and conform to the ways of this world. And it when you really stop to dig, you know, think about your day-to-day life and how much do we just kind of follow along with what the world does and how the world lives and the things we get into, the things we watch, the things we say and do, all these things, we are so conformed to this world, it's not even funny. So when you really stop to think about that and then how counter-cultural Jesus was to all that, and then to try and follow how he did things, whoo, that's a lot. That is a whole lot. And I don't I don't know if we really even understand how much that is.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think it's a lot of Christians that this idea that if we were all caterpillars, finding Jesus allows us to be a better version of a caterpillar. And that's not it at all.

SPEAKER_01

In fact, that's one of the analogies we use.

SPEAKER_03

And that well, that's the analogy I would give to to a uh to children. I mean, literally, because it's that simple. The idea that Jesus doesn't say, hey, injure yourself and follow me. He says deny yourself. And another terminology you could use is literally you you are to your old self is to die. You are to be a brand new creation, something brand new. So not a improved, faster, prettier caterpillar. No. You are transformed. You are transformed into a butterfly. You are now a you are indistinguishable to what you want to do.

SPEAKER_01

Looks nothing like the other self. Yeah, the old self.

SPEAKER_03

And so that's that's the idea, and that's a very, very simple way of putting it, but that's it. And so I think for a lot of Christians, the idea of man, I'm looking at all these other caterpillars in this world and I just have to be the best caterpillar. Well, you're always gonna fall flat if you do that. If if your life is performance-based and your view of discipleship is okay, I have to do this, this, and this, you're always gonna fall short. And so that is where I think we just need to renavigate our brains when we look at ourselves and our walk with Jesus. Are we just trying to be better versions of an old self or are we something brand new?

SPEAKER_01

Yep, brand new, not a self-help program. It's a brand new not a guru.

SPEAKER_03

It is it is Jesus came came to bring something far greater than that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think when you mentioned that carrying the cross, you we're just dead men walking. It reminded me, I you guys probably don't even know this. Sometimes when, as we were talking about before, when we're prepping, you get writer's block, and your mind is just rushing, run running, and you don't know what to type, what to write, what to prepare. Well, when that happens to me, my my my grandma and my dad always would take us around to our family's gravesites on Memorial Day. I don't know how many families still do that, but growing up, my my dad would always take me to different places. Well, at Mount Rose, my great-grandpa, my dad's grandpa, he used to take care of that. He used to do the mowing and everything like that. And actually, the gazebo that's there, my great-grandparents are buried right there next to that because they built that in honor of him. And so actually, this is what I'll do. If I have writer's block, I'll actually go and I'll walk Mount Rose. And it's just a reminder to me that I'm just a dead man preaching to dead men, trying to help every grave be empty. And so it just brings me back to the basics. And I almost like repeat that over and over. And the Lord just gives me like this clear understanding of okay, don't overcomplicate it. Don't overcomplicate it. Yeah, you know, our my goal is simple. I want as many of these graves to be empty at the end of the day as possible. And so it brings me back to my focus and while I'm really there. It helps. I do not do it at two in the morning, you know.

SPEAKER_03

That'd be a little creepy. I'd probably be arrested. I just when I have writer's block, I just sleep. I can eat and sleep. I'm not walking, Roger's not walking the graveyard again.

SPEAKER_02

He must he must not know what to write for Sunday. But it's so true, and that's what it means to pick up our cross. But also, you know, as we talked about as I was studying it, that cross, though, when they hear that, they were they're thinking of it an object as a curse. You know, we see the cross as a as a blessing, but that's a curse or shame. And a part of that too is whenever you truly deny yourself is what once cursed you and what once shamed you is now what God has redeemed. And so now that can become part of your story. And so I really asked him, like, if Jesus is first, those things are no longer first, are you willing to use your past as a story to glorify God? You know, that's where you know Paul would go in and talk about when I boast, I boast about my weaknesses because I'm then glorifying God. And so, yeah, deny yourself, pick up your cross, follow me. That that's what it looks like to put Jesus first, and that's plain and simple. And you apply that to every area of life, you measure it by that standard, that's how you know if Jesus is first in your life or not.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and as you were saying, you know, just the whole what was a curse or a shame is now God's glory. That's a great example of how God and or Christ is counter to what the world thinks. To the world, that is a shame that you, you know, someone that was put on the cross or someone is was suffering, or suffering was equated to something's wrong in your life, or you've done something wrong, or you're not good enough. God turns that upside down, and if you suffer for him, it's for glory. And it's again, it's backwards. It's almost like whatever you think it should be, think the opposite, and that's most likely God's way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and then I talked about the very first person to pick up a cross and to follow Jesus, and it was Simon Cyrene and the crucifixion story, as he picked up the cross of Jesus and literally followed him up the hill. That poor guy was just like, you take this. Ugh, okay. Then we have to ask why did the gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, all three go into detail about which Simon that that was. They don't mention the name of the thief on the cross, but they mention the name of this guy by the name of Simon. Why is that the case? Why do they not just mention him, his name is Simon? They say he's Cyrene from Cyrene. And then one of the gospels even goes into, I think it's Mark, list his sons' names. And so we have to understand why is that the case? Why is that so important? Because how was the gospel shared back then from word of mouth? If they're reading this gospel, they see that guy by the name of Simon of Cyrene, his kids are like, I know him. And what did they probably do? They went to Simon and be like, Is this true? And he can testify, Yes, I watched it. What was that like? Tell me about this. Then go to Do you think you were gonna get nailed to the cross?

SPEAKER_04

I kind of did.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, go go goes to the sons, like, hey, did that really happen to your dad? They're able to testify about God's goodness and in Jesus and what he did on the cross. So it's a cool testimony piece as we see that in the in the story. But yeah, put it Christ verse was number one. Um, and then number two, and it sounds simple, but it's also difficult, is disciples follow Jesus' teachings. I mean, that's a very definition of who a disciple is, is they follow somebody's teaching. And so, as a Christian disciple, what does it look like for us is we follow the teachings of Jesus. And Jesus is clear that's how you'll know they're my disciples. Anything to add on that?

SPEAKER_01

Uh no, it's just again, it's simple, but what you just then you gotta kind of dig into what did Jesus teach. And so, really, when it all boiled down was how you love other people. Um, and so much of that is where it all comes back to is just how you how you love other people is a reflection of how much you love Christ.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, and that's where these kind of start flowing together because then number three that Jesus teaches in John 15 is disciples will bear fruit. Yeah, and you know, goes into I am the vine, you are the branches, he who's in me will bear much fruit, and that's how they'll know you're my disciples, those who bear fruit. And I got asked this question, Roger, after service. Somebody came up and asked me, what is the fruit that Jesus is referring to there?

SPEAKER_03

Fruit, uh what do you mean?

SPEAKER_02

The disciples, if disciples will bear much fruit, what is the fruit that Jesus is talking about?

SPEAKER_03

Just in terms of like what actions or like what's I I just don't understand the question.

SPEAKER_02

The question is, if disciples, yes, if they will know you're my disciples because you'll bear much fruit, what is that fruit?

SPEAKER_03

So, like examples of fruit? I would say uh fruit to me is someone who is um living through the I we say laws and that becomes legalistic, but basically um those that are obedient, I would say, is an example of fruit, but also what comes through your Christian discipleship. And I think there's a misconception or misunderstanding that fruit is merely good deeds. And because I've even heard it said before, like, well, Gandhi, he he bore a lot of fruit. As and and let's assume Gandhi never became a Christian, because we have no evidence that he did. Gandhi bore no fruit. Gandhi did a lot of really good things, right? Gandhi fed a lot of people. If in terms of good deeds, few people have done more good deeds than Mahatma Gandhi. But Gandhi Maybe Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa would be up there. Gandhi had a lot of good deeds. He had zero fruit because fruit comes from believers. It it that it is through the presence of the Holy Spirit that we experience fruit. And so I think that there's this misconception when we read um in John 15, but in 1 John as well, when when he's talking about fruit, that fruit is just me doing good things as a Christian. No, that's that's not at all what what we are talking about.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think the easiest place to run to, and what I told them was, you know, Galatians 6, the fruit of the Spirit. You know, that's the Galatians 5. Yeah, Galatians 5. I mean, yeah, Galatians 5, right there where it lists out here here are the fruit of the spirit. I think that's a big part of it. I think going into Jesus' next teaching about how we love others is also a fruit.

SPEAKER_01

Didn't you say something in your sermon about kids see what fruit your parents produce or something like that? Didn't you ask that question about children to see yeah, and so our my son goes, Well, what fruit, Dad, do you produce? And I said, Dingleberries.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there you go. Did he understand that you were talking about him?

SPEAKER_03

Well, he'll understand he'll understand eventually, and he won't be laughing. Um, but uh no, I think the fruit of the spirit is yeah, it would be a great, very practical, common sense answer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um that's usually kind of what we teach is that is one example, but the ultimate one is love. So yeah, but I also think it is not but it's a agape love.

SPEAKER_03

It's an action love, not a feeling love. 1 Corinthians 13. And I think if you look at going back to I said when you keep the commandments, but then Jesus summarizes it down to two. And so when we love the Lord your God and when we love our neighbor as ourself, that that is probably the most practical example of fruit bearing. Are you loving your neighbor as yourself? If so, that would be evidence of fruit.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, whatever you're plugged into is what fruit is going to come out. And so people that have a hard time with cussing, they cuss all the time. I'd say, well, what are you listening to? Well, who are the people you're hanging out with? And most of the time when it comes to that, they are getting the information they're receiving comes from people who talk like that. And then they naturally start talking like that. Yeah, for sure. And so the same ways like our fruit, if we're into Christ, it's gonna look more like Christ. And so, does that mean you're not gonna suffer? No, you are gonna suffer. But how do you respond to that suffering? That fruit that you are bearing as well. And so there's many different areas when it comes to uh those stuff, but a lot of it I think does go back to fruit of the spirit, loving one another.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and as long as it's not for selfish reasons, the things you're doing, the deeds of love, um it's and you're doing it to glorify Christ, then it's all for the right reasons, uh obviously. So um hopefully there's no selfish intent or for the deeds you're doing. You're hoping to receive something in return.

SPEAKER_03

But I think it's important to make sure that people understand like when we talk about fruit, we are talking about believers. All believers are going to bear some form of fruit. The question is are you bearing good fruit or are you bearing bad fruit? Um, and I think that ultimately you're absolutely correct in terms of um when you talk about what do you what do you plug yourself into. I've used the analogy before, like you have a phone and you have a charger, two chargers that look identical. One is a is a counterfeit and one is not. The counterfeit one actually can do more harm than good. So what are you plugging yourself into? And from that, that should show evidence of how what what is the fruit you know that is coming from that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we even kind of use that to kick off the lesson of everyone's a disciple of something. And a lot of times what you follow, what you're into, what you pour all your time into and you know like the back of your hand, you're kind of a follower of that. And you've kind of idolized it or put it on a pedestal because that's your thing, that in a sense those can kind of become dangerous.

SPEAKER_03

It's like the 12 year old kid that can't do 20 minutes of homework but can do 12 hours of Minecraft. It's like what you are what you are plugging yourself into you have you are a disciple to your video game. Like that is that is that is the lord of your life.

SPEAKER_02

And that's what I why I ended it with that question. Yeah. It's saying hey you're we're all are a disciple of something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah and I'd like to use the analogy of going to a concert and you see these people it's like it's a stage it's almost like an altar and they're they got their hands raised they're worshiping the band they got their shirt on they know every band name uh member of the band's name history about them they know all their songs they got all their their downloaded music now I guess I had to say that I almost said cassette tapes you know DV or their CDs I don't even think they have to download music anymore. I think they can just they just go to Spotify to listen to it.

SPEAKER_03

Anyways you know you're all in on a on a band and you go follow people will go to different concerts and follow them around to different cities and why it's just kind of like how about that so you ask that question even and this is the one thing that I don't care if you're a 70 year old man at a Bob Dylan concert or an 11 year old girl at a Taylor Swift concert all humans can relate to that level yeah of affection I mean goodness gracious look at what I'm wearing. I mean you got Falcon shoes on even no I don't I mean come on and it's like I can tell you every Falcon NFL draft from 1966 the year of our origin to 2025 um I'm kind of ashamed to say that because even in my all of my studying of the Old and New Testament yeah I don't think I know the Bible as much as I know Falcon's trivia. Like in so like I'm I'm I'm convicting myself in a way but why is it that we can go to a concert and we can know every word and it's second nature.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But then when you ask the question who is the first person in the New Testament to pick up a cross?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah it's a good question.

SPEAKER_03

And everybody's like a little girl got it right on second service. Second service a little girl said we thought it was Misty I thought Misty no it was right next to Misty. Okay got it. But I mean even that now that that's not an easy question. I don't want to like if you heard that in like you'd be convicted like I didn't know that answer. No that that's it that's I think a lot of people knew it they were just scared to say it's a little bit and if you didn't please don't take this as holier than thou but like the fact of the matter is is that in our culture it is so easy to devote ourselves to things. It is so easy for me to devote myself to football watching football. It is very It's entertaining it is very difficult for me even as a pastor to devote myself sometimes to a Bible reading plan every single day. Like it's it's it's night and day different. So the question is why? Why is one so easy and yet the other so difficult?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's an entertainment factor. And I think the world does a really good job of just making it enticing and making things fun and it's so much it's again like I said it's just so much more entertaining on the surface but it has no value at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_03

On the surface it's not evil but I love the old quote if the if the devil doesn't make you bad he'll make you busy so the idea distracted just distracting you like it's okay football by itself it's not evil right I mean Tim Tebow goodness gracious but it does it make me busy does it distract me okay now we have a problem.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Or even like the Super Bowl and the surface on the surface it's not a bad event but yet it's the number one sex trafficking event in the world. Exactly and you're like whoa yeah so there's this there's two sides of things that yeah you can enjoy the entertainment of things but how just how much do do these things dominate our lives and that you when you really start to dig into your life oh man there's a lot that distracts using well it can be your kids or your kids' lives or the the the activities of your kids to just football to other just fill in the blanket there's so many things we all probably need to take truth serum and just all have name tags and say hi my name's Roger Shear I'm a disciple of the Atlanta Falcons.

SPEAKER_03

What's your name? Hi I'm Luke Winfrey I'm a disciple of CrossFit hi I'd you brought up the Chiefs you know and the and that's where like even your like even as pastors I have to stop myself say okay Roger your your discipleship over here is really effective but it's not doing anything over here. It's not doing anything for the kingdom and so like what are you a disciple of?

SPEAKER_02

I mean it's I know and this is kind of morbid but I'm gonna ask it or I'm gonna talk about it. You know we sit with a lot of families that are planning their loved ones' funeral and as we as we were preparing to speak it we ask the same question is hey tell us about them. Yeah tell us about your dad yeah tell us about tell us about a person were they love what did they love? Yeah and that's kind of the convict if when you get to that point in your life and somebody is planning your funeral and they get asked what did they love? What's going to be the first thing that comes to their mind?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Is it going to be the and he loved Jesus like crazy. Yeah yeah like insanely loved Jesus man wouldn't that be like the greatest honor as your kid sitting around of and they're sharing stories and the first thing they all say is yeah that dude was crazy about Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah and we're all lucky we're all sitting here going we're all lucky no we win we win because all three of our obituaries the first word is going to be reverend.

SPEAKER_02

Reverend Jordan Rockstar departed this life yeah so like the first word is reverend but wouldn't it be great like you get to that point and your your spouse or your your kids literally the first thing they say is no he didn't just preach it he lived it lived it yeah I watch them live it yeah his faith yeah it's hard to practice what you preach sometimes. So if that if you're like man that's that's they're probably not going to say that about me then I'm sure it is for you guys.

SPEAKER_01

I know what I'm up there most of my sermon is at me. I'm preaching too much 100% no doubt about it. But you know Roger I don't know how to what is it that about whatever football fill in the blank why is it so much more than a lot of I do think the entertainment factor and I think that is why the the comic book Bible is climbing up the charts.

SPEAKER_03

I think that's why the chosen is speaking to people I mean I I've had people talk to me that say yeah I I never could get through a chapter of my Bible ever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But I binge watch season one of the chosen and it's like that's interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01

They saw it come to life And it's the same thing with David now the the House of David on uh Amazon Prime it's another great come to life and people that go to Branson that go to sight and sound and probably are getting more Bible in a two hour show than they've gotten in their entire life.

SPEAKER_03

And so I do think the dopamine and serotonin effect of the society we live in that everything has to be you know we scroll reels we have the shortest attention span now than we've ever had before in in modern human history. And so I do think that that's a component of it. But I also think it's why certain people you know like the the the ADHD study where the kid stares at a math problem for 20 minutes and he's moving around and they diagnose him with ADHD but then they put a Star Wars DVD on and the kid doesn't move for two hours. Yeah. The kid doesn't have ADHD he's applying himself to something that he loves and is passionate about so for me the challenge. So for me the challenge is not how can we make the Bible more interesting or more fun or more exciting. How can we make you more passionate about what it says because once it once we become passionate about our faith then it becomes easy to read about what we're passionate about. So that that's that's my two cents.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah it's so it's uh it's a difficult thing because the world offers so much that distracts us uh from what the Bible is asking us to go do. So and and that's another thing I mean how do you mix the two? Uh how can you take what the Bible teaches us and reaching people, loving people doing good things for people, uh loving your neighbor how do you mix that into a football game? And so like with our small groups we always say hey we're not meeting for small groups here at the church. Have a Super Bowl party at your house and have a good time with your small group and just change the halftime show. Yeah yeah just change the halftime show. So it's you can incorporate it but somehow find a way to do it for the glory of God.

SPEAKER_03

So and there's some Christians that would hear that and they would say no you can't have your cake and eat it too you're you're giving into the world and that's the problem if you give the world an inch it'll take a mile and and I just disagree and Paul would have disagreed with that as well. Paul said hey there's gonna be times you go to a Jewish house and you're not Jewish but to the Jews you have to be a Jew. You have to be like a Jew. You have to be like one under the law even though you are shredded from that you don't have to worry about that. Why do we do that? Why does Paul say we have to do that? So that we may what? So that we we can reach them we can reach them and relate and that we may win some. That's the whole goal that if we can look like a weirdo if you don't you know so I agree I don't think the issue is doing it.

SPEAKER_02

I think the issue is what's primary. And that's where God sees your heart is what what is the number one thing in your heart?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah it's not to say you can't be an Atlanta Falcons fan. I mean that you can't follow the team and know who's getting drafted and all these you know what's it going to look like for the season and wonder. That's not saying you can't do those or those things are wrong or evil. It's just I guess like you were saying what are you putting first? And then enjoying that as well.

SPEAKER_03

I mean I don't think I'm just scared at one point in my life the Falcons are going to be good for a long period of time and then like is my devotion going to go higher that's my concern. Because I think we're so bad right now and we've been bad most of my life I can only devote myself so much to them. Whereas you being a Chiefs fan like that that that to me would be potentially more dangerous because you have something to you have a quarterback that is really good. Yeah so I don't know and then you're a Steelers fan and who they literally don't have a quarterback. And then they just hired Mike McCarthy. So yeah well anyway so we'll fly through the last two.

SPEAKER_02

The fourth one was Jesus says disciples love one another. Yep. And this was a fun one to study is yes I think he's talking about we need to love everybody. You can love somebody and hate the sin but he's specifically talking to disciples right then saying this is how they will know you are my disciples if you love one another.

SPEAKER_01

And so that one another I really do focus on that a little bit is he talking about other disciples when he's talking about that yeah that's a good question because a lot of times Paul when he even when Paul's going through how do you treat each other it's all about internal inside the church type stuff and the outside world's a whole nother place.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah he distinguishes it very quickly quit judging them you got to I mean if we're gonna judge one another we we got to judge righteously here in the church.

SPEAKER_01

And it's very inward focused in that regard but there's still the we're gonna go reach other people we're gonna be an example to the world that's the church's role is to be the example like Israelites used to be uh so we still have to go love outside the church. Absolutely because then you can bring some in.

SPEAKER_02

But I think we forget about that aspect of what Jesus is talking about when he says love one another. Yeah. You know we're really quick saying yeah you gotta love those people but yeah we got to love each other as a family. That means being honest with each other. It is loving each other in a way that is where you stand on truth but in a graceful way. Yeah and how you do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah we were actually talking about that in the small group last night the whole being truthful but with grace. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then the fifth one um and it's why we say here you know our goal is to make heaven crowded is disciples make disciples. And this is actually the part that I had to cut from the message and I couldn't go into is you know disciples make disciples. We obviously hear that as our call to evangelism who's your one more who are you trying to reach to bring as Paul was saying um we do these things so what some may come to know Christ. But discipleship that's an ongoing process that is not something that we oh I my discipleship journey is done. No all of us we are growing as disciples as we're living this life. So what does that discipleship process look like and I think the part that I had to cut is I think Paul modeled that really well is he had people he learned from he had people that kept him accountable and then he always had people he was pouring into and so for you if I had more time in the message what I would have gone into is for you being a disciple of Christ what does that mean my question to you is this who's discipling you who who is pouring into you who's mentoring you helping you if you don't have anybody go ask somebody yeah talk to them see if they will be and that's where our senior saints we need you so much in the church right now because we're seeing a next generation come to Christ we need you to help us disciple this next generation and so there's a lot of them yeah and which is good if it's amazing. So somebody that is pouring into you then the next one would be like an accountability person. Somebody that is going through life probably the same stage same phase that's helping you stay accountable to what you were doing. And we saw Paul have that in his life right and he had Barnabas in his life that would help keep him accountable in what he was doing. And then Paul always had people that he was pouring into you know we see that through uh Timothy and probably even Luke and these other people that would travel along with him is Paul was always discipling pouring into those people and that is what discipleship ongoing discipleship looks like and for each of our believers I think we should have those three things.

SPEAKER_01

I kind of wonder what was Paul's accountability partner needing to be accountable for because they didn't have Instagram or Facebook or internet or what was his accountability partner.

SPEAKER_02

Well you know you even see him with the other disciples keeping each other accountable of if they were you know as we just talked about Peter came calling out Peter yeah because Peter was hanging out with the Jews and said Gentiles keeping them accountable saying hey remember the gospel that we're trying to preach remember what we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_01

And his accountability focused on not adding things to salvation uh that the Jews were trying to oh you need to be circumcised or you need to follow the Sabbath you need to eat certain you can only eat certain foods and Paul's like wait a minute that's not how I understood it we need to talk about talk about this that was the that's it's a fascinating the perspective of what that accountability it was all based on are we keeping the gospel true and not adding things to it keeping it as simple as it's supposed to be and protecting it. That's their perspective of accountability.

SPEAKER_02

Right but I think a large part and you know there was a time in my life my accountability partner walked alongside me to help overcome certain sin in my life but I think accountability now looks a lot different than it did then. I think my accountability now is I have people that help keep me humble of making sure I'm keeping the main thing the main thing and doing it for the right heart and right reasons. And they speak into my life whenever they might see that I'm stepping outside of that to help me bring me back. But also if there's times that I'm going through suffering or things that are going hard in my life, they're right there walking alongside me. You know helping me keep my mind right helping me remember why I am doing this and help me pull through the mud of that time. And I think that's what accountability kind of person does for you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So and making disciples we I don't know if we joke in the class what we mentioned in the class this is what we're doing right now in our class is we're making disciples by pouring into you so then you can go and take this to somebody else.

SPEAKER_02

And honestly it's the whole reason we have this podcast. Yeah it's it's just because we can't get enough in there on a Sunday so we have to be able to go a little bit deeper and we want to help make disciples but yeah that's what it looks like.

SPEAKER_01

And that's just the start. Yeah that's lesson one of two there we go now do we get to get to QA?

SPEAKER_03

Do you want to you really want to get to this part I think people are going to brrr and then hit play right now.

SPEAKER_02

You think they're gonna fast forward through everything we just talked about in discipleship they'll play it at 1.5 yeah and so I mean they probably do already I think it's a great I play everything at 1.5 do you not no so I sound like this when we don't talk about it yeah no I have to so here here's a good question is how as Christian disciples should we respond to people that hate us?

SPEAKER_03

Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you is what Jesus says.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah turn the other supposed to be the lead in to what's next that was the lead in yeah maybe they now that we introduce the voice of Jade.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah so uh Roger tell us what we're about to do so we I had the idea last week because we we've gotten not a lot of negative comments um but we have had some of them are people that are local that really when we say negative comments we don't just mean like you guys are idiots although there are some like that some of them are very good constructive comments from maybe people from different faith backgrounds. We have been called idiots though yeah we've been called we're I've been called I listen I get the comments one that says these are just a bunch of dumb evangelical pastors evangelical pastors um but so some of these like and some of these are our brothers in Christ and so like one of them I know the Calvinists found one of our Instagram reels and they cut they left like 500 comments.

SPEAKER_02

Is there a Calvinist YouTube? Do you think like once you mention the term Calvinist it just pops up on half on Calvinists too I'm telling you there it is it is crazy.

SPEAKER_03

Same thing with Mormon like once you mention Mormon it was yeah yeah it goes to like the Mormon YouTube and the Catholics have just now been on purpose. Well the Catholic comments were were the more local ones which we appreciated was really good feedback. The Mormon ones were from all over the place and then the Calvinist ones I mean I don't know if these were they seemed to weren't they the most vocal they were the most part we received more hate from the Calvinists and Mormons than we did from any Muslims. Well I think surprisingly they don't comment they never mind I do think it's telling that the most vicious one I put a bomb in my mailbox whatever that is kidding this will these will be part two comments to the Calvinists but I do think it's telling that the most vicious comments we got were from Protestant Christians.

SPEAKER_02

Being Calvinists that are Protestant Christians number four what did Jesus call us to do as a disciples would so anyways we we won't respond to all of them.

SPEAKER_03

We're not going to share names obviously although when you comment something I think we should because sometimes well when you comment something publicly you do leave that open it is an open domain. In this case we're not going to read um because our goal is not just to uh be disrespectful but we actually do want to if there is anything we can clarify that we might be able to clarify.

SPEAKER_02

So and I think part of your heart behind this is I'll I'll say this this is your idea. Yeah well because most of the comments are directly I can care less what people comment.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think anybody's commented on me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah I can really care less what people comment you couldn't care less. I couldn't care less however you say I don't care because if you could care less I would mean you would care.

SPEAKER_02

Okay whatever it means for me to say I don't care what people comment that's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_03

That sounds like someone that cares a lot about you're like the person on Facebook. I don't care what people say about have to say about me.

SPEAKER_02

Here's the thing I didn't know people even commented until you told us last week that we had bad comments.

SPEAKER_01

I don't even know how to go look for the comments so it's great.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah but here's where I do support you and we don't have the time to go through and address each one of these questions or comments people have. So it's a cool opportunity to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00

All right well without further ado Jaden we will let Jaden start off with uh the first comment hey let's give Jaden a master's round of applause because he's wearing it listen you can't make that joke two two times in a row that's good I like it all right I'll start if we go off with um a softball so somebody commented on the podcast and said that this is like a classic top gear episode.

SPEAKER_01

Oh that okay I did know about that comment top gear with Tom Cruise? No the that's top aviation okay uh top gear is I mean when I heard that I could I could die and go to heaven because one of my that is the best show ever on TV of all time. My favorite show and to be put at an equal level with those guys and that show and like is it check out Jerry I'm not no it's a car show and I I can never I don't like car I don't get into car you don't have to you don't have to it's that's entertaining is it from like the 80s? No it's it's relatively they're British guys I think Jeremy Clarkson Clarkson and so he's known yeah and now from then the Top Gear show he slapped a producer because he was hungry and wanted a steak and maybe that's right. And so then he got fired and the other two said well if you're gonna fire him we quit and the show was done and it was one of the it was worldwide like when I would go to India on a mission trip I could go get the Top Gear India magazine in India because it was that big that's it was everywhere. So you love this show and then some guy some random comment we don't know who it was so then they lose their show with the BBC out of England and Amazon picks them up and literally pays them I think it was over 50 million dollars to do a show called the Grand Tour on Amazon. And then now Jeremy Clarkson has another spinoff called Clarkson's Farm and there's four seasons of that they're all amazing. Apparently we somehow resemble those guys I'll take it so I'm I'm can so how do we resemble heaven so do we resemble them like in our lids the humor yeah we do not look they're just funny their humor and just they're dynamic three very different guys but somehow when you put them together it's just gold. And now I don't I'm not saying that we're gold but someone else seemed to say that and I was just like that's the best compliment I could have ever received in my entire life.

SPEAKER_02

If I got fired for slapping Tyler Anderson across the face would you leave with me?

SPEAKER_03

No I mean I think I would be on team Tyler on that one. So we're not top gear. We're not top gear. Listen if you had paid we're also getting paid$50 million. If you add Tyler Anderson to this then this is now top gear on steroids. So all right good stuff what else what else we got?

SPEAKER_00

Next question. So Roger you mentioned kind of your views on the King James Bible and so how many comments do we have on this one? It was like sixty four or something like that. That's a lot for us.

SPEAKER_03

It's crazy translation. There's sixty four people that are reading the King James that's crazy. And they're ready to defend it. All right let's hear the question.

SPEAKER_00

Alright so someone commented and said that the NIV endorses Calvinism and that it's not a biblically sound translation.

SPEAKER_03

Okay well there's there's a few things wrong with that. Number one The NIV doesn't endorse any soteriological view. And I will tell you that I have the Bible that I use and preach out of is an NIV Bible. It's an NIV study Bible by Quest, Quest study Bible. Sam, why do we use NIV though? Well, I use NIV to me because I think it's an accurate translation and I think that it's easy to read. And I think it's written in a language that people today understand. It is a very Western. Now, that doesn't mean that it's any less accurate. It's still an accurate way to talk.

SPEAKER_02

I put it this way it's the most accurate translation that speaks good old boy. So it's it's the most accurate one that you know people that we are talking to and preaching to and that are reading it, that the most accurate that they're going to understand the old company. It speaks how we talk.

SPEAKER_03

Now, I use it uh pastorally, but academically, um, the NIV is actually not the endorsed uh so like at Liberty, when I was going through my master's, my doctorate, the ESV and the NASB are the two that they endorse. And that like if I'm writing a paper, I would use those translations. And as I think I said this on the last podcast, of all of the seminaries, um, I believe there's only one seminary that uses the King James for academic purse, like they will use it as a citable translation. Otherwise, it is not used by any seminary as King James University. I think it's an independent Baptist King James only seminary.

SPEAKER_02

Why do you have this deep hatred for King James?

SPEAKER_03

I don't have the I don't have deep hatred. And here's the thing, I believe the King James Bible is the Word of God. I believe that you can read the King James Bible and and and you can get everything that I can get out of the NIV. So someone who is a King James only person, um, and they think that I am diminishing it by saying it is lesser than, I think the fact that there are it is objectively not as good of a translation because of the manuscripts that were used in 1611 for the King James versus the manuscripts that have been used after the fact, we have better manuscripts to be able to see a full picture of what are being said.

SPEAKER_02

So it's important because there's a the whole Dead Sea scrolls. I think that's something that many people don't even know about.

SPEAKER_03

Sure. Yeah, and so you go you go through all of these, and people will say, Oh, well, in Matthew, they omitted this verse of the NIV, they took it out from the King James. Well, no, because of the updated, more accurate manuscripts, we can see that that verse actually was not needed, and so that's why that verse was omitted.

SPEAKER_01

It wasn't taken out for any other reason. NIV will also, depending on uh if you're using the Bible Gateway or they'll tell you, hey, this verse, there's a footnote, hey, this verse is sometimes used in other translations. And it's wide open about it. It's not trying to hide anything.

SPEAKER_03

So I so if I if someone tells me that they're King James only, I'm gonna ask him, why are you King James? And oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes the answer is simply idolatry. The answer is that we are exalting or elevating the translator, the fact that because it was translated this way, therefore the translation is what we basically exalt over the actual manuscript itself.

SPEAKER_01

And what was unique of I'm I don't know the whole history behind the King James translation. I'm assuming there was a literal King James who asked to have the Bible written down in a certain for a certain reason. Yes. What was that?

SPEAKER_03

Well, there's uh a few different theories, but uh knowing King James and reading his biography, he was not just this devout Christian that was adamant on finding as many disciples as possible that can read the scriptures. Obviously, he was a king and he was one that was very um I don't say drunk on power, but he loved power. And what greater way to gain power than to have a translation of the inerrant, infallible, inspired word of God, and to have it in your hands and to disseminate that literally within your kingdom, and not only that, but to have it named after you. Yeah. That here we are 400 years later, and there's still people that are fighting tooth and nail over your translation. And I think if you research King James, he wasn't an atheist. I mean, he he was a Christian, but I think a lot of people have this idea that he was just this incredible visionary that you know it was his life's work to make sure that the Bible is sent to as many people as possible. He had he had different uh motives than that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So, anyways, that that would be King James, it is the one that it's most translated because it's a free copy. So, I mean the Bibles are typically produced by that's why you see it on the hotels and different things like that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, interesting. For sure. All right, uh next question, Jay Dalton.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so this one, I mean, what he commented was very long, and so it's a it's a very multi-layered question, but we'll just start with um his ending statement, which basically said that he would love to have a good faith discussion talking about the Catholic Jesus and how he is not only the same Jesus that we claim to worship, but that we also by biblical means are not worshiping him correctly.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, is this the one the podcast you actually got a lot of hate for that you were telling me about because people said uh that we should have had a Catholic on the class this Wednesday, that I need to have a Catholic authority come give my class on Catholicism on Wednesday. Um Well, first off, I'll clarify we believe the Catholic Jesus is the same Jesus as ours. We we never called the Catholic Jesus a counterfeit Jesus. Yeah, they worship the same Jesus that we do, contrary to Mormons. Mormons and Muslims, and Jehovah's Witnesses. They have a different version of Jesus. I I if someone said that Catholics worship a different Jesus, I would correct them on that. I don't think that's true. I believe Catholics genuinely believe in the same Christ that we believe in. So that's the first uh kind of rebuttal in terms of we don't worship him correctly. Does he give evidence on why we don't worship him correctly?

SPEAKER_00

He doesn't, but how would you guys kind of differentiate the way that we do worship versus the way that Catholics would do worship?

SPEAKER_03

Well, we don't have the seven sacraments, and so we don't sacramentally worship. I think uh oftentimes in a what we would call works-based theology, Catholics would push back. But the idea is that we're doing these things to achieve some level of honor in the eyes of God or exaltation in the eyes of God. That's the term that Mormons would use, but that we don't do it as an overflow of the heart, but we do it because it is an obligatory thing that when we are in unison with Christ, when we are one with Jesus, that we have to be doing these things. We have to go to confession, we have to um, you know, mass and and all of these different things that we we have to do. Um and that to me is not a form of worship at all because it's not a free flow of the heart, is what I would argue. Now, Catholics would adamantly push back, they already have pushback. I've made Catholics angrier than anybody. I'm sorry, I love Catholics. I believe many Catholics are gonna be in heaven. Like I can't say that enough. Um, I believe Catholics are are are infinitely more Christian than Mormonism because it actually is an authentic replication or a representation of Jesus. The problem is, is everything that is put into that is is kind of what muddies the waters when it comes to worship.

SPEAKER_01

I look at it as it's the only it's it's the Peter and the Paul situation of adding to the salvation. Yeah. And what Paul calls that is false teaching. Yeah. So there's these add-ons to what the simple core gospel message is, and that is just believing in what Christ did for us and the death, burial, and resurrection and who he is, and then now go living for him and living a Christ-like life. They add in so many extra things, just like Peter was arguing that oh, maybe we do need to add in circumcision, and maybe we do need to add in that you must keep that Sabbath. And oh, yeah, you know, these food restrictions. Maybe we do need to keep some of those, and you do need to keep going to these festivals, and you do need to keep doing. And Paul's like, Time out. That's not what I understood, and we need to go find out if that's how we want to do this. And so Acts chapter 15, they go to Jerusalem and they go to James and they get to the bottom of it. Yeah, and that's what it sounds like. They've added all these things back in again.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's Paul's whole letter to the Galatians, he's fiery, especially when he first starts because you have You read Galatians after Acts 15, and it all makes sense. You have you have Jews who are Jewish Christians now going to these Gentiles that Paul just converted and now trying to say, hey, it's not enough for you guys to have grace. You also have to do X, Y, and Z on top of that. Yeah, and they're trying to make them become Jewish Christians and not just a Christian. Yeah. Doesn't mean that those Jewish Christians weren't going to heaven.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

It's just, but that's what this the Catholicism sounds like to me, just in a new form.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I mean I've I've in the last week, I've I've reached out to a lot of Catholics, and I've had a lot of Catholics reach out to me. Um, and I've asked the question very simply hey, I'm a Southern Baptist, I I preach the gospel for a living, I've devoted my life to the Lord, I 100% have given my life to Jesus. Even though I'm still a sinner, even though I still fall short, it is through his grace and his grace alone that I believe I will go to heaven when I die. Um now, with that being said, Mr. Catholic or Miss Catholic, do you believe that I can obtain heaven based off of how I just described? And I've gotten 15 different answers from 15 different people. Some, well, I had one person say, Oh yes, because God's mercy would still reign in your life, and so because he's a merciful God and he will see your loyalty, that you can still go to heaven. I had another person who was more of an ultra-conservative Catholic that would say no, because you you knew the Catholic Church, you knew the tenets, you knew the sacraments, and you rejected it, and so you would not make it to heaven. And then I've had the answer, which is kind of in the middle, is through purgatory and through other means, you may eventually get there, but it may be more difficult for you than it would be obviously something. Do you have any scripture to back any of that up? A lot of it goes back to the 900 plus catechism, the 900 plus page catechism of the Catholic Church. Um, and so one of the comments, and Jaden didn't read this one, but one of the comments was if you guys talk about Catholicism, whether it be on a Wednesday night or on a podcast, you need to have a Catholic there to explain what you're teaching. And my argument, respectfully, is that if you need an expert sitting next to someone to explain your theology, then you don't have the right theology. Yeah. Going back to Spurgeons for words, yeah, right? I mean, we we we make this so complex, and I think, you know, a Catholic may say, well, Protestants misrepresent us. And and my loving rebut to that is no, I think Catholics oftentimes misrepresent themselves and what they actually view salvation and grace to be, because it's not the same thing that we see when Paul is writing about justification in the New Testament. What it would be good enough if we had some former Catholics to And we have many, and I know we'll have some there on Wednesday night, but I had one that you know very well that um uh came up to me on and he gave me all this stuff that said, Hey, you will never hear this from a Catholic. But he talked about one of the things, it's called relicking, I think, where there's uh a piece of like a cloth from an old saint that they will literally have in the pulpit. And he said, I mean, it is an outright form of idolatry, and and Catholics don't often talk about it. And I didn't research this, so I don't I I don't know much about what he was talking about. This is from a former Catholic This is from a former Catholic who who for for grew up in mass. 90% of his life he's been a Roman Catholic, for 10% of his life he's been a Protestant. Um, and he was sharing this with me, and he was told me, he's like, I can send you resources. He's very well versed. And he said, There are things that you will not get out of most practicing Roman Catholics, but I'm going to tell you some things that they will not tell you. So again, that goes back to my Mormon days of there's a lot of stuff that you're never going to hear from a Mormon based on their own theology. And unless you sit down and read the thousand-page catechism, which is not scripture, um, then you may be confused as well. So and even the the where does that even come from?

SPEAKER_01

The catechism. Who created that? Where did it come from?

SPEAKER_03

And they would give you a long-winded answer, but I would say it it ultimately it denies sola scriptura. It is not um the authority of scripture, but it's the authority of scripture, comma, and the the sacraments, comma, and the authority of the church in Rome, dating back to the first pope and the early church fathers. They're putting all of this faith in all of these different areas that Jesus basically is one name amongst multiple things that ultimately gets us to heaven. Sounds like exactly what they went through in Acts 15. Sounds very similar, I would agree. And it got to the point where Martin Luther had to show up, and when they were selling indulgences and said, guys, you you are doing exactly what what led Jesus to flip the table over in the temple. You were literally doing the exact same thing. So, yeah. So more comments to come after that. Oh, yeah. See, that one I was probably more harsh than the first one. Yeah. Uh all right, next one.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so speaking of solo scriptura, we got a this is a kind of a harsher comment, but it says this video is your typical group of clueless evangelical pastors who only know the superficial tropes and assume their view and their interpretations are truth, but have no basis for their version apart from their own echo chamber.

SPEAKER_03

Do you call it stun? Yeah, he's basically just it's a long comment. These three are stupid. Well, here's the thing. What's a trope?

SPEAKER_02

He's not completely wrong. Two of you are smart. There's one stupid guy here. You're the idiot. Like he's never say that. Yeah, he got one, one, he went one for three on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Uh yeah, I'll put my reply with me with you. You should reply to that and say, uh, I I shared this with the pastors. They agree with you. They actually they they don't disagree. Yeah, touche.

SPEAKER_01

I still don't know what a trope is.

SPEAKER_03

You know what a trope is. T-robes? A T rope? A trope, yeah. That's like a almost like a mantra, I feel like something that you just like repeat over and over.

SPEAKER_01

And that's our echo chamber.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's almost like a cliche.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Uh we've been brainwashed to say these things.

SPEAKER_03

All right, I know we at least we have at least a couple more. I'm gonna get through them.

SPEAKER_00

All right, so uh this one is Roger, you mentioned canceling your Netflix account.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

This is the OG comment. First episode almost.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, this is the OG comment. All right, uh Jaden, let uh clarify it for if you read the whole thing, if my recollection is correct, we're gonna be in here till 2 p.m. Right. Because it was a very it was a chapter book.

SPEAKER_00

It is it is very long. Um I'll I'll read the last part.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

It says if canceling your Netflix account is something so core to your approach to Christianity, when there are so many other threats to humanity, religious hate, racism, um and falsities preached by the prominent news stations, then by all means go right ahead. However, I might suggest that you lead your people to a slightly deeper place of thinking, one that consists of meaningful action whereby the only byproduct is love and not a license to judge.

SPEAKER_03

And sometimes, yeah, so there's a lot there.

SPEAKER_01

Um break down a few of those.

SPEAKER_03

Do you two, do you have anything to say on that?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I just I agree with what you're saying, the the sense that Netflix is just part of the overall media with a narrative, and they want to push an agenda and with the types of shows they have, and you can say the same thing about any other streaming service. There's gonna be shows that push a narrative that is counter to God's plan. So, which is better, watch the shows or cancel it?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think is the bro the right thing to do as a Christian?

SPEAKER_03

It sounds like her argument is, well, as Christians, we need to be diverse and knowing what the world is putting out there so that we can maybe be more the problem is when there's kids that's watching and they don't understand. Yeah, we're not dealing, and that's like even when we talk about transgenderism, yeah. Um, which is a lot of the connection of when we talked about LGBT and Netflix and how all of that um and and the simple thing is well then just turn it off and don't care. Well, we're not dealing when we talk about the issues of transgenderism, we're not talking about adults that are consenting of having surgeries. We're talking about 14-year-old children that was going on at Vanderbilt University where we're giving them, you know, puberty blockers and we're giving girls double mastectomies. We're doing things that we're not talking about adults that are wanting to remove their own body parts, we're talking about adults removing the body parts of children.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So same thing with Netflix.

SPEAKER_01

Making it sound like it's okay.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. So when a when a 32-year-old man can watch Netflix, I can watch it and and I can distinguish what is true and what is not true. An 11-year-old child, um, or even a seven-year-old child who may still believe Santa is bringing presents down the Christmas tree, they're gonna have a a lesser grasp on what is true and what is not. And they're that that line's gonna be very blurry.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and what starts at age seven develops as time goes on into more and more thinking that that's all normal and okay.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think it goes back to you know, putting Jesus first. You know, we talked about disciples put Jesus first. I think it goes back to that. You know, what really is first? Do you have to have Netflix that bad that you're not that you're not putting Jesus first in that? And so I think that's kind of answering that question.

SPEAKER_03

Alright, I think we have one more, correct? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Alright, so this one is on Solo Scripture. It says the dang solo scripture is a dangerous theology because it encourages people to decipher biblical truths without actually connecting the dots and doing a deeper dive into scripture. I know many Protestants that get stumped when I prove a Catholic doctrine from the Bible alone, connecting the dots between Old Testament context and New Testament revelation.

SPEAKER_03

So he says that by believing believing that Scripture is the ultimate authority, it prevents us from doing a deep dive on Scripture, and that he, who by his own admission, does not view Scripture as the final authority, uses Scripture against those who do believe it's the final authority to prove Catholic. To prove Catholic doctrine. So then I would say, okay, what so and I'm guessing, did he give an example of Catholic doctrine that can be proven through scripture alone?

SPEAKER_00

He did not. His his statement kind of contradicts itself.

SPEAKER_03

So purgatory, scripturally, not an iota of evidence, the immaculate conception of Mary, the sinlessness of Mary, not an iota of scripture to prove that. Intercessory prayer, not an iota of scripture to prove that. In fact, the contrary. Well, we can pray for each other in accessory intercessory prayer when it comes to the saints. Yes. And maybe now that they will use Hebrews. They will say the saints that are in heaven, you know, when we run our race, which is not at all what what the author of Hebrews is is stating in that. We're not talking intercessory prayer. So there's all of these Catholic doctrines.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, it also the Holy Spirit also intercedes on. Why would you want a former human to intercede when you have the Holy Spirit to intercede?

SPEAKER_03

The only one I think that maybe he's referring to would be the Eucharist, where Catholics would believe it's the literal body and blood of Jesus. But I would actually say scripture, when Jesus says I am the vine, I am the branch, he says I am the bread of life, he obviously is using um extreme language to describe spiritual life. He did the same when he was holding the bread and holding the wine and said, This is my body and this is my blood. He clearly was being figurative in the Eucharist. So again, the problem with saying sola scriptura is absurd, but also scripturally, here's why we can prove this, this, and this. Well, you've already taken away your card to use that as your final authority. You don't have that anymore. So now we're the ones that are saying we have final authority, or scripture has final authority, and we are the ones that that are using that as such. So it that it to me it's just it's backwards.

SPEAKER_00

So my question would be if he's using scripture to prove his Catholic doctrine, and then we're using scripture to disprove it, which interpretation of the scripture is correct?

SPEAKER_01

We'd have to see what what he's using and wow.

SPEAKER_03

And ours because we believe it's the final authority. So then it's like we just I'm kidding. But no, that's why we sit down and we have a conversation. And I think that um a lot of those are secondary issues. Whether it is the literal body of Jesus or it is symbolic, in the end, we're I mean, those are not lar those are not things that are going to get you out of heaven. Same thing with baptism, same thing with all of those things. So I think a lot of those things we can sit down and we can have those conversations, and even when we disagree, we can still have the basis of scripture, we still have the lordship of Christ and all of that. The issue is is when you start getting in the way of Christ, that's that's when it becomes an issue.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So no Mormon questions. Or are we just out of time?

SPEAKER_01

We're just out of time. Okay. The staff has arrived for staff meeting.

SPEAKER_03

It's kind of our long have we been going?

SPEAKER_00

Uh about an hour. Just an hour.

SPEAKER_03

I was about to say it doesn't f it didn't feel as long as we just started way too we started way too late. Well, Gabe walked in. I love that Gabe walked in and is just like him and Carrie, and Carrie, of course, is like whispering. Gabe's just talking like you and I right now. He's like, so what's going on? As we're over here filming a podcast, but uh just kidding.

SPEAKER_02

Hey, you're the doghouse for making fun of me yesterday. Okay. All right, let's close the podcast.

SPEAKER_03

Let's close the podcast and then we can we can jump Gabe. So just kidding. Uh so make Kevin cry about it. He would beat me up with his pinky. He's not that big. Okay. Uh with that being said, uh I love QA. We'll definitely have more, and now that we've done this little tidbit, we'll have a lot more comments. Uh, can I just reiterate for the 10 millionth time specifically on Catholics? Because I have I'm getting bombarded by the Catholics lately, and and I I want to have peace with the Catholics. I believe Catholics are Christian. I believe Catholics worship the same Jesus that I worship, and I believe Catholics are my brothers and sisters in Christ. We just have a uh some very strong. They believe I'm wrong. I mean, we all believe Adams. So with that being said, next time we will be back. Uh we may talk Israel. We'll see uh what we're gonna talk about. I don't know. That's that's been a big request. Um, but as always, Roger Jordan and Luke here for uh Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. We will see you next week. Make Heaven Crowded.