What it means to be a BIBLICAL MAN in 2026 with Mark Griffith | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 30

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we sit down with Mark Griffith to tackle a question that’s more relevant than ever: What does it actually mean to be a biblical man in 2026?

In a culture full of mixed messages about masculinity, identity, and leadership, how does Scripture define what it means to be a man? What does it look like to lead with strength and humility, conviction and compassion?

We dive into questions like:

• How does the Bible define manhood?
• What does it mean to lead well in your home, work, and faith?
• How do men balance strength, discipline, and love?
• What are the biggest challenges men are facing today?
• How can men grow into who God has called them to be?

This conversation is about clarity, responsibility, and purpose. Because biblical manhood isn’t about dominance—it’s about servanthood, sacrifice, and leadership modeled after Jesus.

Whether you’re trying to step up, stay consistent, or start fresh, this episode will challenge and equip you to live with intention in every area of your life.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 30
📖 Topics: Biblical Manhood, Leadership, Identity, Discipline
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, thanks so much for joining us for a special edition of Make Heaven Crowded. As always, Pastor Luke, Pastor Jordan, Pastor Roger. But we are joined with a fourth guest, somebody who we typically do not have on the show, a very masculine man known as Mark Griffith. Let's go, baby. Do you pronounce the th in Griffith?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

You better, because way too many people are saying Griffin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Well, and the problem is, is you're from Rhode Island, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 0:22

I am.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

And of course, the only family that people know from Rhode Island are the Griffith family, being Peter, um Stewie, and the whole family guy family.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

That's Griffin. But then there's Andy Griffin, which is another TV show.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

What about former Heisman winner Robert Griffin III? That is definitely Griffin. Anyways, Luke, uh, go ahead. I've basically introduced him to go from there.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Sticking at 6'3, 220 pounds, former linebacker at Evangel University from somewhere in Rhode Island, pastor, mentor, and legendary leader for Team Jesus, currently serving as a director at Convoy of Open Springfield. Most importantly, he's a strong husband, physically and relationally, and dad to three beautiful girls. Please welcome Team FPC's men's conference speaker over the past three years, Mark Bivin.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

How about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Am I blushing? Yeah. That was incredible. Have you ever been introduced? I'm coming back next week. I have never been intro like that. All right, there we go. I'm coming back next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Yeah, right on. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

So much we love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Well, so going right into kind of what you're gonna be talking about, and people that listen to this, they're already going to have heard your conversation, your your uh second session that you're gonna be doing, and so yeah, they're listening now, you know way more than we know because we haven't heard it yet. But obviously, um starting out like when when we reached out to you, and this is year three, and we kind of gave you the idea of this is what we want you to talk about, this is kind of the itch that we want you to scratch, more or less, and the men of of Lebanon, um, figuratively speaking, of course, um, what what were some things that as you prepped for this and as you you know you prayed, like God, what do you want me to present to to men's conference? Um, what are some things that kind of the Holy Spirit started stirring with you?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

That's a great question. Before I answer that question, I want to say one, I love you guys. We love you, man. And I remember, you know, it really is an honor to come back for a third year. This is the only event. There was one other summer camp that I would like go back annually, and then that camp shutdown. So I think what's cool about coming back year after year is you can see the fruit from the years before. Where I think sometimes the church is like, you know, we we pop in, pop out, you hope for the best, or it was like people got a shot in the arm. What came of it, you know? But we've seen like your brother getting saved and baptized and coming back to church. We've seen uh fathers and sons be baptized, and then the next year their other brother gets baptized or something. So um, yeah, I just I love you guys. I love that you're leading together. If you ever need a fourth guy on the team, just holler at me. I'm just waiting for that invite. There you go. But yeah, it's it's uh I love it. And I remember you called like, you know, three years ago now, I guess, and you're like, hey, I think we're gonna invite you back every year, and you stay true to that, and it's an honor to be here. So, you know what's funny is before I found out you guys were changing the name to Building Conference, there was this thing in my heart for this conference about building, and I almost called you. This is no word of a lie. I almost called you guys and said, Hey, is there something about building this year? Like that was just kind of swirling around in my heart. So you assigned, I've been assigned fighting and and preaching on that, and but I but I am gonna talk a little bit about building and battling in in both of those things. So how crazy is that though? It was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

It it was it was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

So it when we did call and say, hey, we're gonna do this kind of theme and it's all about build, you're just probably like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

No, but like when I called, you said, Well, I was already gonna go this route. What do you think that you already had your sermon passed?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I was in the gym at Convoy, like on a lunch break. I was talking with Pastor Luke, and I'm like, dude, that is wild. Because that's literally what's been in my heart.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

So that's gonna be good. Yeah, we're excited.

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Yeah, that's awesome. Any teaser, like any, like, I mean, what is the I mean the Well by the time they hear this, you've already talked.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Okay, that is true. That is true, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

So you don't need to tease anything because they've already heard it. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah, so what didn't it was incredible, wasn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

That was great. Billy Graham would be dedicated his life. Such a great word. We need to make a second cut, Jay. This will be the second cut. Dude, you brought it the first two years. What happened? How did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_03 4:37

I've been busy and I wasn't able to prep. I'm distracted.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

I was like, prep that message like a game of Mad Lives.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

I haven't been able to sleep much.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

We know it's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, so this is gonna air on Wednesday. So they're gonna be able to hear what you talk about today, which is Saturday, and then they're also gonna hear your Sunday message already. And so what we always ask and start this podcast with, what did it make it into your message that you wanted to go deeper on that you'd want to share?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

I guess you could go either starting for men's conference and then Sunday. Yeah. Oh, do both.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yeah. Well, this is a really cool kind of testimony from conference. So I'm opening up one of my really good friends, Chris, um, just a couple weeks ago met his daughter after like 30 years of being estranged from drug addiction, from crime. God totally transformed his life. Um, you know, probably seven years ago or something like that. But like three years ago, he started praying, I want to be reunited with my daughter. And so he's praying, he's praying, he's fasting. And then I found out just recently, like just a couple weeks ago, he ended up meeting his daughter. They reconnected, he went to meet her. The minute I found out I called him, and I'm like, bro, this is unbelievable. We both wept on the phone, laughed on the phone. But I asked him, I said, dude, you know, he's probably close to 50. Now I don't quite know what his age is, but yeah. Yeah. He goes, uh I I asked him, I said, dude, were you nervous? Coming up to her, ready to have this conversation. He goes, dude, I was so nervous. He goes, but you know what I kept saying to myself? And there was like this little tidbit at the beginning of a message uh last year at Men's Conference where I talked about Job, and then Job's complaining to God. But God says to Job, finally, after you know, chapters of Job complaining, he's like, abrace yourself like a man. Yeah. I'm getting ready to speak to you. And Chris, he shared with me, Hebrews, all I could think about is abrace yourself like a man. Abrace yourself like a man. I was just repeating. So that's more fruit from the conference that we were talking about. But I so I think like he's uh coming up on 50, been estranged from his daughter for 30 years. Wow. And so I think the thing that I don't get into maybe enough in this message, but you know, talking about building and battling and deciding I'm gonna step into the things God's called me to. I'm gonna be who God's called me to be, is it's never too late to start. I think we can get to this place where it's like, man, I haven't done it yet, or or I tried and I failed. And I think like in Jesus, there is always hope. In in Jesus, the story, if you're not dead, he's not done. Right. Right. And I know it's kind of corny and cliche, but man, there's a lot of truth in that statement of like if we will decide in our heads and our hearts that we're ready, that we're gonna pursue this thing, he had to wait three years. He was patient for three years. But I I think we gotta give God more credit that he's able, he's a re He's a redeemer, he's a restorer. And so I'm hoping that all demographics get something from the message, young and old, that just start, regardless of where you are, just start.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Well, it definitely says speaks to no matter how impossible you think something is, yeah. Nothing's impossible for God. Right. And so you think about the distance and all the barriers that were probably he thought were set up between him and his daughter, and that there's no way she would even entertain wanting to talk to me. There's no way I don't even know her phone number, or I don't even know where she lives now, or all these reasons of she hates my guts, she will never talk to me. And sure enough, all those got knocked down, and that is cool. Yeah, really cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, and I think the place to start is humility, and I think that's why it's so hard for men to restart nowadays, is because culture teaches us we have to be men of pride, yeah, and we have to be in control and we have to stand up. Yeah, wrong kind. And uh, but the Bible is very clear, it lays it out. What does that look like? Well, it starts with humility because that's what Christ looked like. And if we're gonna have the same attitude as him, it starts with humility. Yeah, and so dive into that a little bit deeper. What's the difference right now between the way culture defines a man and the way the Bible describes a man?

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, well, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think if I had to summarize it in one word, it's exactly that. It's humility. I love where Jesus says those who exalt themselves will be humble, those who humble themselves will be exalted. So I'd rather humble myself than be humbled by God, right? But I I was I was chewing on this. You know, we you you sent just some stuff to kind of prep with, Pastor Luke. And I thought about how Paul's writing to Timothy, young guy who's ready to go plant this church, and he says, Don't let anyone look down on you because you're young, but set the example in speech, life, love, faith, and impurity. You know, different translations might say uh interchangeable life, conduct, whatever it is. So I think about I think about some of these areas, and I think it's leading in those areas. Speech, life, love, faith, and purity. My speech, you get around guys, and it's like, you know, guys love to give each other a hard time, right? Oh, you want to make fun of me? Well, I'll come back. I'll hurt your feelings even worse than me. Rather than a godly man, a masculine man, I encourage everybody around me. My my words are gonna be a flood of life. My words are gonna be a river of life, right? So there's speech, life, the way I live. No one's gonna, no one's gonna serve more than me. No one's gonna sacrifice more than me in in my character. Speech, life, love, faith. I'm I'm gonna lead in faith. I'm gonna pray, I'm gonna read purity. Like, I I think the culture is like, yo, how many girls can you get? Right? How how much rather like, no, for me, I'm gonna honor God's daughters, I'm gonna protect my eyes, I'm I'm gonna value these things. And so I think it's like I I think all of those things, there's this great framework in uh 2 Timothy 4 12 that provides this beautiful framework for what it is to be a godly man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Roger, I'm gonna try to be more of a godly man towards you this year.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

No, I think I feel like I poke fun at you a lot.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

No, you don't poke fun at me as much as I poke fun of you, especially behind your back. And so I think um specifically No, I'm curious. No, no, I don't like to do it behind your back. No. Um, I think that that's especially true with when we talk about masculinity. And masculinity is a biblical concept, it's a good thing. As men, we need to be masculine, right? And we need women to be feminine. And we these are almost used in this world as slurs. You talk about toxic masculinity. And I think that, yes, masculinity does play a biblical role, but I think you speak into the idea that there can be a level of toxic masculinity in the idea of, hey, I've been with X amount of women, hey, I've I've done this, and I think there's almost a double standard in our culture where when women do it, oh well, now you're damaged goods, but when guys do it, oh man, you're cool. And and you see that you see that starting at an earlier and earlier age, as as former youth pastors, we can attest to that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

So yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah, I've I've my oldest son just turned 16, and I've had to have a conversation with him several times with how he and his friends kid around with each other. And I'm like, dude, that's uh pretty brutal. Uh, are you sure that's the right way to talk to each other? You say, Oh, wait, that's just how we are. And I'm like, okay, because if that was me, I'd be like, Man, that would you see that, but you see that in even like some of the things they say.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

And like we knew this when we go to the high school and speak, and the idea that um, you know, bullying is seen as a cool thing. Oh, okay, we're gonna put people down, we're gonna demean. Um, when I was in school, if you told a kid to kill themselves, you would get kicked out of school for the entire year. Now that is just a normal language that they use. Well, they still can get kicked out of school, they probably can, but because it's more normalized, it's like it's just a part of that culture. And so I think as you see that culture shift, not just with men, but just culture in general, and I think that this is good because for a conference like this, we have men from all different walks of life that are coming together. And John's culture over here may be different than Bob's culture over here. Totally. And you're having to really double barrel speak to an entire room of guys. Yeah. Um, and so how have you prepped that knowing kind of that you're gonna have longtime believers, but then you're gonna have people like my brother Jordan who are coming in and at the time doesn't even have a relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, well, I think it's considering the context of where you are too. Like, I I'm in a position right now, especially with some of the work I'm doing with Convoy, I'm gonna go preach all over. But I think you know in Lebanon you're gonna get a little bit of this blue-collar culture, right? Is that okay to say? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, keeping that in mind as I'm preaching to these guys, where it's like we pro we probably got some dudes who's like, all right, I worked all day, I put in my time, I mean, I'm gonna kick back and have a couple beers now, and blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, and it's like, and I can check out because I put in the work, and that's what I that's what I hang my hat on. That's where my identity is found in. I did my job if I worked hard at work. Okay, so just just considering who's in the room, what what are some of those common things that are gonna be happening? And and that's not gonna be everybody, I'm not gonna broad stroke the whole room. I know that guys are gonna be all over the map, but I also think some of that is the Holy Spirit's job to take this word, and he does this. You guys know you're you're preaching on the weekends, and the Holy Spirit has this way of taking a word that's prepared for a general group, and he he's able to make that thing specific to the guys that are sitting in the room. But I'm I want to speak to even what as we were talking about words. I was taking I was taking a group of guys through this curriculum one time, and as we sat there and talked about how words have shaped us and marked us, you wouldn't believe the amount of guys are carrying things from things that were spoken over them in their teens in middle school and in high school, things that shaped the way they believed about themselves, um, who they were, identified them. And so it's like it's so true. You got these teenagers who are like, oh, we're just kicking fun. It's like, yeah, but these kids get back in their car driving home and their feelings are hurt. It's like, so I remember going through that curriculum, this is this is a true story, and one of the reflective questions in the curriculum was like, What are you saying that's not life-giving or something like that? And I'm like, I'm a pastor, you know, all my words are life-giving. But he convicted me, I'd been calling my wife Klutz McGee. Okay, because God bless Abigail, but if there's a you know, a line in the ground, strip over it, it says, and uh, but I felt like the Holy Spirit convicted my heart. Stop speaking that over your wife. Yeah. And it was in the principles larger than that is I I just want to be intentional that the words I have for the people around me are are gonna build up and are gonna encourage, fortify.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

I watched a documentary last night. Have you heard of the documentary Sky King? The guy that he was he worked at an airport and he got into an airplane and he just flew it around. And he's the whole documentary is him speaking to the people back at the airport. Long story short, this guy worked there, he wanted to end his life, and so he steals an airplane and he flies it around and basically crashes off into an island. But the whole documentary is him speaking to the aircraft carriers about, you know, why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Air traffic controllers.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Air traffic control guys. And he wasn't a bad guy. He was a Christian, he had been baptized, he had a wife. But basically, as they go through the documentary and they speak to his friends and family, that it turns out that lo and behold, this guy had been, he had needed help for so long, but he he was unwilling to reach out and to have conversations. And they said, if only he would have come to us, and his nickname was Bebo. They said, if only Bebo would have come and talked to us, like we would have loved, but we didn't know. And the culture, as they talk to his brothers and his friends, is like, guys just don't do that. We don't talk about our feelings. Like that is, you talk about masculinity. The least masculine thing I can do is say, Hey, I'm struggling with depression, hey, I'm struggling with anxiety. And so, as you speak to the men today, but I think just the men of our generation that say, Yeah, I I it's not for me to reach out for help when I'm struggling with stuff like that. Yeah, what would your message be to them?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, well, I think we touch on that uh a little bit. I know that we do in the message. Okay, good. And yeah, I think brotherhood is mightily important. We know what Ecclesiastes says. It's like, you know, two's better than one, you can fight together.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Um you're gonna go with nothing really matters. Yeah, it's kind of takes it off with that.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

That's that verse that verse always really encourages me. But uh I don't know. I thought that's where you're going, but my bad.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah, I I think of uh I think even Paul, you know, I think of a really manly man. Here's this guy is knocked out, dragged out of cities to walk back in to continue ministering. He's in shipwrecks, he's arrested, he still keeps preaching the gospel. This dude's just bold and loud and crazy and awesome. But he also writes things like, Man, I do what I don't want to do. Yeah. And boast in my weakness. I boast in my weakness. I'm like, you know what? So I just, I don't know. I think there's and and then I think there's something about being intentional to have somebody in your life who is allowed to ask the hard questions, and then me being intentional to ask somebody the hard questions as well. And so am I am I preparing those things? Do I have real brotherhood in my life? Right? If I'm gonna win some battles, if I'm gonna fight well, I need a brotherhood that's gonna help me fight.

SPEAKER_03 18:03

So you gotta have people you trust, that's for sure. But that whole boasting in your weaknesses, yeah, guys don't like to talk about weaknesses. Yeah, definitely not. Not at all.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

That's the hard part. And I think if you and I've I've been very open with my mental health and my struggle, but I think if I wanted to find a podcast on mental health for my wife, I I would it would take me a half a second. I think to find something for mental health that's specifically catered to men, I think that that is really where we lack in why I emphasize mental health so much, because I don't think that there's a lot of men that are just saying, hey, listen, I can be masculine, I can be manly, I can be a godly husband and father, but guess what? I still struggle. There's still days I can barely get out of bed, right? And I think that there is something especially masculine about that to say, hey, here are my scars, here are my weaknesses, here are my thorns, and yet God is still going to use me regardless of what those thorns may be.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Yeah. Because I I think the same crowd you're sharing that weakness with is the same crowd that watch you preach to 1700 people on Easter in a room doing big things for God. Yeah. And so there's something so encouraging about seeing someone who you admire, look up to, who has authority in your life. They they recognize the gifts on your life. They're like, man, Pastor Roger just, but he struggles like that, and God still uses them like that. That is uh uh never forget a mentor with me one time, uh, dude that I love, was vulnerable enough with me to share some of what he was walking through with pornography. And I remember, you know, church leader doing it and on bigger levels than I was or have. Yeah. And I just remember like, bro, you struggle like that. And instead of giving me an excuse to be asleep in my purity, it actually set me free, knowing that like oh wow, God can still use you even as you are struggling. It's like, and that's the thing about the kingdom, man, it's upside down. We think like, oh, if people know, then they won't respect me. And and that's just I don't think that's what happens. Yeah, you know, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Well, if we follow along with you starting with humility, with the beatitudes, another one in there is meekness. And we always think of meekness as wimpy or sheepish, but meekness is actually having the the means to take care of something with your strength, but ha choosing restraint.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Um, so that's another one I think guys struggle with is they have to prove their masculinity through their toughness or I'm a I'm a bad dude. But um, I I think that's another area that guys struggle with if we were to go to another topic, but um or another example.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

That starts in junior high. Hey, did you call me something? Hey, meet me after school. Yeah, like we're gonna fight. Like that's that's how you win.

SPEAKER_03 20:42

So the whole man up is I'm not gonna let anybody push me around, which that's fine. You don't need to be pushed around, but you can still be a man and show restraint. And actually, meekness proves that you're more of a man by proving restraint.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Yeah, I think meekness is strength under control.

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Strength under control, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

It it's really it's not hard for me to like, oh, you insulted me, you hurt my feelings, I'm gonna haul off and punch you in the face. Like that's that's no control. Instead of being able to sort of pause with those emotions, think critically for a moment, consider that my actions have repercussions, like, and make a sober decision in a moment of high emotional chaos. That's strength, bro. For me to be like, who do who do I want to be? Who am I called to be? How is this gonna affect other people? Like, yeah, I think that's really strength.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Especially when immaturity pushes your button, it's easy to just want to haul off.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

But you know, a common a common rebut to that is well, didn't Jesus flip tables? So how how how do we account that for when we talk about meekness? And Jesus was gentle, Jesus, meek and mild, but he also wasn't afraid to, when something was going against his will or going against the righteousness of God, he also wasn't afraid to to show that.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

He definitely stood up for God. Or himself in that r regard. Um it is a little different though. I think it's uh that was more of a that was calculated.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

And so that wasn't a move out of the instant.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

It wasn't it's like it wasn't a crime of passion. Jesus knew exactly what he's doing. And there are times I think in a man's life you have to figuratively flip tables, but that might not be what we would consider to be flipping a table.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

It does beg the question because David kind of did the same thing when uh uh Goliath was spouting off all kinds of stuff, and he's like, Who is this Philistine disrespecting our God? Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna take that. And so Jesus kind of looked at it, the money changers were disrespecting the temple, which was God's house, and so he didn't like that. And I think that I think that changed the root of the people.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Well, but I think a a calculated man that can be meek, it would be the equivalent of saying, as a godly man, you know what, you can get in my face, you can call me names, I'm not gonna resort to that. But you mess with my children, you mess with my and I think that that is kind of where Jesus is showing is that there are moments where we have to prioritize, but that doesn't take away our meekness. And so yeah, interesting point.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, that's where I would say going biblical man is being a leader. Yeah, and there's so much power in our tongue, as James would describe it, you know, that you can either use it to tear up or or build up or tear down. Yeah. And as a man, we do that with our friends, and again, in the spirit of joking around, you can do it in a spirit of tearing down or you can build them up. Yeah, but you hit it on it really well, even in our household. Yeah, you know, what words are you speaking over your wife? Yeah, and it can just be little comments.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

But like what you are speaking as a leader of the household, you are writing it on their life, but not just them, especially your kids.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

And you know, this is something we've been really convicted about in my house is what are we speaking over our kids, even though they're just two. Totally. Right? Yeah. And you know, when they start crying, is it, hey, why are you why are you being a little baby today? But instead of calling that, it's hey, you're tough. You're gonna be okay. Yeah. Hey, you're tough, you're gonna be okay, and just repeating that over and over. So even those little things that they matter. And I think as a man in every area, we can do better at that. Yeah, but tapping that to that a little bit more of how can we be godly men who are leaders that are uh ambitious at work, um, but also have a calling to be a present husband and father. How can we how can we balance both being ambitious at work and then also being a present husband and father?

SPEAKER_00 24:11

That's good. I uh I I love that question. I want to answer that question, but kind of it it is. But I but I'm just curious too, with I want to ask a question before we answer that question. Is that okay? Yeah, just taking over the podcast. This is your podcast. I've always I've always admired that you guys lead sort of this trihead way, okay? And I know that you have your own lanes, but I imagine you guys have to um have hard conversations with each other, you have to keep each other in check. There's times where you want to go right, you want to go left, you want to go down the middle, whatever it is. So maybe talk about like how have you guys, what what role does humility play in three guys leading in an incredible move of God? What are those hard conversations like? How have you created a space where you can be open and honest with each other? I would just love to hear a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 25:06

I will I will say first that when we started this uh in 2023, the number one pushback we got, not just from congregants, but even from other ministers that I reached out to that said, if you if if there is one percent pride in any of you, it will not work. It because that and so that was kind of going into this. We all knew if we do not come into this with the utmost humility, we will fail. Like the it will not work.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, that's right. And we can't made a decision from the very beginning that if it's not all of us, we're not gonna do it. So if two of us come to the table and we're like, hey, we want to do this, but one of them says, you know what, I'm unsure about that. I I don't think, then we don't do it. And there's we pin them down and kind of yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you sure, Pastor Jordan? Are you sure you don't want to do this?

SPEAKER_02 25:50

I mean I'm usually I'm usually the dissent vote. So usually it's like, well, okay, fine, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

But it it's all seriousness, until it's all three of us, give the thumbs up and like we're 100%, we don't do it. Yeah, wow. And so there's that takes two or three agree.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah, that's right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

And so we wait until that gets there. And so we don't try to be like, oh, we have two, you're the odd man out, we're gonna go ahead and do it. No, it is we all have to be in agreement before we step forward and do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

And it's not that hard, like I've been on the opposing side of something when everybody else was on agreement. And it's it's not hard when you respect who you work with, yeah and you really value their opinion and their ability and what they do. And um, so obviously for me, it's like, well, then I'm I'm I'm clearly missing something. Yeah, and I'm just gonna I'm gonna go with it and trust that these guys know what they're doing because I trust them, you know. And so you gotta kind of you gotta believe in who you work with.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

But I will say in in uh almost three years, I can count on one hand where that's happened. Yeah, it is it really is a work of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, we're just always on the same page, knock on wood. I mean, but I think we've been really we're we're a church.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And so if it is of the Lord, the Holy Spirit is gonna unite us in whatever decision it is gonna be moving forward.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

And we've seen that more than anything. As a matter of fact, when you were saying that, I'm I was even like, I don't even think I can think of something that we have been in dis especially major disagreements, or even any disagreement that we're always like, Yep, that sounds good. Yep, that sounds good. I'll tell you that idea.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

So like that's all the good parts about it. And so if you talk about our temperaments, um, I don't know if you ever took the color test or whatever we we took at it here at the church. These guys are green yellows on that side of the table. I'm a red. You don't say. Yeah. So you do know what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I have zero red, I have no red whatsoever.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

I haven't taken the color test uh just through context clues. I already know what's I can already guess, but uh but I've taken a lot of those.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

If the building's on fire, everyone looks for the red of getting out of here.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Which is taking down doors.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

They do a really good job of thinking through everything and asking questions and getting all of that. What about this? Yeah. Let's change the world. This is the end, let's go ahead and do this. And they're kind of like, well, wait, just a second.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

I'll just I'll just be like, all right, and then I'll just send four or five, like, okay, but what about this? What about this? What about this? And that actually works extremely well.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, so it's hard for me at the beginning because I felt like I was like, oh, like we're being held back, like I want to do it right now, but it's actually so good because you know, addressing it. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So he's saying in our personality there's wisdom. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

As we are being as identical. Yeah, it takes the two of us who are identical in our personalities to take on the one combat iron. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

But no, that's but it works, it helps it work out really well. Yeah. Um, because then we don't just jump into something that we later on are like, ooh, probably should have thought through that a little bit more before it happens.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

And so it's the other good thing is that three years in, this will be the last thing and I'll let you talk, is we can even in three years look back at some of the decisions we made where we're like, you know what, we would have done that differently. And I think that we do a really good job admitting when we're like, man, we flubbed that. Like that one, oh, what were we thinking when we did that? But man, we're never gonna make that mistake again.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

But but how many of these pastors who you know they're kind of one-man band running the show and they're making decisions without consulting, I think it's easy when you don't have some kind of accountability setup, they end up getting in trouble. And so I think there is a a guard and there is a a protection that you guys live in operating as a unit as well. That's unique to maybe a lot of other churches.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

But I'll tell you what it protects more than anything is our families. And so leading a church this size, which is as great as it is, yeah, I wouldn't do it without having people to do it alongside. I see what you did there.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

You wrapped it back into the original question, right there. There you go. You see what he did there? He's a preacher, you can tell. He's a preacher.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

We get to take our wives on dates, which a lot of I talk to a lot of lead pastors that are like, yeah, we we don't we don't really get to do that because the marriage bec it's so centered around this building.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

We get to go on vacation and actually go on vacation. Which is still shame on them. That's still their fault.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

You know, but I mean it's not an excuse. But there's no one to keep them accountable, right? That's the issue.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

But like you, you got to take a few weeks off when you're everything was going on with your dad. Yeah, and you don't have to worry about a thing going on going on here.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Or even just yesterday, we had multiple people in the hospital. Yeah, and we were able to divide and concert and everybody. You do this, you do that, so yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it didn't just consume one person having to go through multiple places, take their whole day, um, which is technically a day off, actually. Yesterday was. Uh, but the other thing is I think when there's one person, it is quick to be that cult of personality where people like idolize the person that's on the stage, yeah, and they become a celebrity, and then they know they're a celebrity, and it kind of causes the head to swell quickly.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

So uh obviously I don't take the stage as much as they do, but um, I do think it helps that there is not all focus on just one individual. That is a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

You start carrying that glory and it'll crush you. You forget who's only one person who was designed to carry that glory, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

It and it's funny, I mean, it's human uh to start to do that as an especially when you're being put on a pedestal. Yep, it doesn't take much.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

A common quote is when people say, I can't believe this insert pastor here fell. And my response is always, I can't believe that you can't believe. Not that that specific pastor fell, but that pastors fall because I know I have the ability to fall at any given moment, right? And so that is where like you you have to be honest with yourself. And I think what we have right here, um, we have that accountability every single day. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

But it causes this. I for me it tries, I want to bring my best because I don't want to let these guys down.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

True.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

No doubt. It's true. So I love it. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

But it's unique. But I don't think it's been too tough for us to get used to it.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

When Mark asks the question, he gets an answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

What else you got? So, what's your guys' biggest sin you're struggling with?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

So I think so back to you know sitting two people down on my right. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah. What your original question, you know, balancing ambition and and leading in the home. I just want to be transparent, bro. I have not always done that well. I'm actually, I would say right now, I am in a season of recalibrating, reprioritizing because I've realized, whoa, I I got out of balance. I I need to do this better. And some of that comes back into um this this whole transition that I have. You know, I've been pastoring for 12 years. Now I'm um on staff with Convoy of Hope and still doing a lot of ministry stuff with pastors in churches, preaching in churches. But yeah, I think that you can get into the church, and I and I think you can get into anything, and especially as men, it's like there's this lump of flesh we're carrying around. I want to achieve, I want accolades, I want to, you know, they got a little plastic trophy at work, I want to win it, you know, like just this thing. And I think sometimes it's easy to choose that because there's uh recognition, there's acknowledgement, there's accolades where in the home it it's just not that sexy sometimes. There's not that type of we know that's the most important thing, that's the priority. But I think like we can feel ourselves getting drawn to like, oh, we're making impact. We are, I am enough. Like, and I think in this last season, just in the church, there was a lot of like, oh, I'm I'm doing this, then I'm doing this, and then I'm doing this, and you know, we we gotta sacrifice over here because we're doing God's work, and just I know for me, bro, I just got out of balance where I was like, and and my wife, like, you know, she started to, I could sense she was struggling a little bit, and it was like, okay, wow, I can't believe I'm becoming this guy, you know? And and you've talked about like yeah, we're just I can't believe you couldn't believe it. Because it's like there is this flesh that we're carrying around and that we're warring with. And so man, it it is I I don't have like this secret formula. I would say it is something that I am walking through myself right now of man, I gotta be intentional. I gotta learn how to say no. Um because this this is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

So that's like something that's hard to do because a lot of times the people in the congregation don't they they say it, but then they really quickly forget it, especially when it involves something that's for them. Yeah, yeah. Uh and to have that balance that no, like today I have to strike a balance. Uh, because uh my our oldest, he just celebrated his 16th birthday yesterday. Wow, milestone birthday. I don't want to miss out on that. Well, family is in town. We're also gonna celebrate my youngest son's birthday today, the father-in-law's birthday, and my mother-in-law's birthday today. Wow. And so I've got food on the smoker right now, but I'm here to do this for a little while, then I'm gonna go back after the we get the conference started. But I wouldn't be able to do that if you're not gonna be able to. And you were in the hospital yesterday? And at the hospital yesterday, talking with some praying over somebody. Oh no. Seeing someone, seeing somebody. I was not, me personally in the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Um that's the thing, it's like and it's it's discerning like there's all these good things we can do. And I think that's the challenge is discerning which good things need to take priority, though, too. I think in ministry, that's a something that's kind of unique to the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

And we're speaking in the context of ministry, and there may be guys listening to this that are like, okay, I'm not in ministry, I work a nine to five, I'm a 40-hour a week guy. But it applies to them as well. I mean, how many men out there say, when's the last time you and your wife have left the kids at home with a babysitter or with grandma and you've actually gone and you've gone on a date? I know that there are men that will be here today that can tell you, I don't remember the last time my wife and I have ever been on a date because of the grind of life and everything that happens.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah. But what you were talking about, whenever you say yes to something, you're saying no to something else. Yeah. So you saying yes to come and speak at our men's conference, yeah. You're saying no to being with your your kids and your and your wife. Walked away from the family. Right. That's it, man. And so bring them next time. Yeah. Yeah. Three little girls running around. I love them. It's so true, but I always fall back when it gets to this point on Colossians uh 323. And whatever you do, work at it as you're working for the Lord and not for man. And so I think you can be somebody that's very ambitious, that is passionate, and works really hard at what they do at the job, but also carry that over and work really hard as a husband and as a father.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

And before he answers that, Anthony Tolliver, our other speaker, is here. So I'm gonna adjourn and let you guys answer with them. And Mark, I'll see you here in a minute. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

But you know, in that you can actually take that too far and say, Well, I'm doing this for the Lord. I have to make that the priority. You know, and so that could easily start to get things out of balance.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

This is where I was I was so like when you know I get to the church, you know, whether it's just a normal day or especially when I preach, you know, I have a little moment before I even walk in and just pray. Like, Lord, just you know, this is your time. Yeah, I need your guidance, I need your wisdom, whatever. Where I started got getting convicted is I'll do that before I got to church. But I wouldn't do it before I walked into the doors of my home. That's good. And you know, then it's a lot easier whenever I get home to carry whatever happened at work into home. And for the man that maybe it's not ministry, you go in and you work as hard as you can during the day. Well, guess what? When you get home and you're like, you know what, I work so hard today, I just need to relax, I need to kick up my feet, I need to drink a couple beers, I just want to turn on the baseball game. Yeah, yet you're not being spending time with your wife, you're not helping out with your kids. What you're unintentionally doing is you're carry carrying whatever happened at work home with you. Yeah. And I'm not saying those things are bad, yeah. I'm saying the timing of them are poor. And so whenever you're doing that instead of spending time with them, yeah, that's when it's carrying over.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

So you're sending a message to this, this is my priority. Yeah. This deserves the best of me.

SPEAKER_05 37:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

You guys get the leftovers. And I know that's not that's not our heart, but that's what we subliminally, that's the message that we're sending. Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

For sure. Yeah, well, and Luke, you're gonna your kids will experience this soon. Um, my kids grew up in the church, too. And so even for them, we have to strike a balance for them in their lives. Um, had one of our other local uh youth pastors send me a text one time and say, Hey, your daughter's over here at our uh um youth group tonight, is that okay? And I'm like, absolutely. The fact she still wants to go to church, wherever she wants to go, it's great, as long as it's not like Satan's church or something. But uh yeah, we have to strike that balance with our kids of how much they're here or they grew up in this church so much that you know, if one of them says, Hey, can I just stay home today this time? Yeah, you can do that. You can take a break. It's all right. Because they even need a balance, not just us. It's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

So it's wild, it goes to the whole family. That does bring it to. I I got a couple more questions I really do want to dive into. Number one is what what does the spiritual leadership in the home actually look like in real life?

unknown 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Man, hard questions.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Glad you're answering this. Yeah, right. Well, yeah. I think, man, really, there's two words on the surface of my heart, but it's sacrifice and it's servanthood. Those two things. And you already use that word leadership, but when you look at Jesus, like literally, I love this John 13. I've shared this a lot, but John 13, it says Jesus knew he had all authority in heaven and on earth, and literally in the next verse, he's washing his disciples' feet. Okay. So what it looks like to lead in the home practically is nobody in the home's out serving me, not even mom. She's not out serving me. Nobody in the home is outsacrificing me because I'm gonna be the thermometer of my home. If I'm gonna be the leader, then I'm I'm gonna be the ceiling. I need to set the tone of my home. So I think there's this man, I I am going to lead by example. I'm gonna live this out in front of my family. My family can depend. My family knows I'm going to serve, I'm going to sacrifice. And then I think, you know, obviously there's the man, I'm gonna be praying, you know, leading spiritually. But I mean, if we're just kind of talking practically, it's like, man, I'm I'm gonna see what wifey needs and how I can support her. And I'm gonna check on my kids and I'm gonna have the conversations, I'm gonna ask the questions, and then obviously being intentional to carve out time to read the Bible with your kids, to pray with your kids, to ask them about their friends and who's making good decisions and who's making bad decisions and navigating them through that. Did I have this really like I was really grateful for this interaction I had with my middle daughter here recently? She we go to the gym, there's child care at the gym, and she stole a toy coming out. Okay. So I saw it in the car when she got in the car, walked her back to the room, made her apologize and said, Hey, we don't do that, we don't steal. Well, the next day we went, she did it again, and the toy made its way home. Okay. So I'm like so frustrated. I'm like, what are you doing? I tell you and I just felt like I'm just kind of these silent conversations with God.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

I'm like, was that on the inside, or did you actually get upset with her?

SPEAKER_00 41:08

Uh probably a little bit of both, you know? Like, what are you doing? I don't understand. Give me an answer. Like, why did you do that? I I forget, I forget. And so she's probably nervous and scared, and and uh she finally answered. She goes, um, because I wanted it. And I go, okay. I go, I appreciate that answer. And I was like, you know what? It was laying on my middle daughter. I'm like, baby, like in life, we're gonna want things. And sometimes we're gonna want to do what we know is wrong. And I do it all the time. But you know, we need to commit to do the right thing, and it led to this really like beautiful conversation, and I just walked away as like that was a good dad moment. That was discipleship in the home. But it was like, you know, being patient enough to kind of get to the root of what happened, and then seeing it from this lens of like, man, I'm not better than her. You know, I do this all the time in my own way.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

So yeah, I was wondering what would she what would you have done if she said she told you she really liked the toy, she really wanted it. What would you have done if she said, I really like that toy, I would like to have one. Yeah. What would you have done?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

Yeah, and that and that was part of the conversation. I said, Hey, if you really want some like this, daddy will buy it for you. Yeah, I can I can get it for you. Yeah, you don't you don't gotta go take it. That's not ours, it doesn't belong to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

No, that you you hit it right on, and it goes back to why do we follow Jesus? Not because he demands us to follow him, but he's a leader worth following. Yeah, and the same thing should be applied at home. Yeah, you know, you don't have to be a leader at the in the house where you have to demand your family to follow you through tone and volume, because that's how a lot of people lead. And so I thought you hit it on the head. It's like, how do you be a good leader in the house? How do you be a biblical man in the house? Sacrifice, serve. Yeah. And and your family and doing that. And then they're gonna want to follow you. Yeah, they're gonna want to do whatever you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

And I'm not saying that that I'm doing that perfect either. I think it is hard and it takes intentionality and it takes humility because I got things I want to do, and I have this lump of flesh I'm carrying around too, but that's something I'm like walking through right now as a 32-year-old dad. Like, I want to be those things. Yeah, and so God help me. Like, Jesus, make me more like you. It's this produce these things in me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Well, it's great that you're actually aware. Yeah, uh, that's a big thing because most of the time we can be oblivious to how we are because we don't see ourselves and how our facial expressions or whatever how we respond, we don't really see how that comes across because we're delivering it. Yeah, but to be self aware is huge. Uh and to really be introspective thinking about it and then taking it to the Lord and saying, Man, I don't want to be that, I want to be this. Will you help me?

SPEAKER_05 43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:52

And it's it's the whole you know, when you're asking for the right things, the Lord will provide. Totally. Totally. He will not give you a stump, but he will give you a fish. Absolutely. But you know, in that it kind of leads into potentially what your sermon is about on Sunday, where uh he Jesus is invited to dinner, and they have two characters, uh Simon the Pharisee, and the lady that shows up because she hears that Jesus is there. Yeah. And she shows up and just loves on him because she knows how much she's been loved. Um it kind of speaks to the same thing. Yeah. Uh and how leading by loving, uh, you get her love response usually a lot of the times. And I don't know if that's a good segue into what you were going to preach on on Sunday, but um, there is some you kind of start to tap into where those verses were going. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

That's good. And probably one of my biggest questions, because this podcast, it's not just this podcast is not gonna just be for men. There's a lot of women that are listening. Yeah. And maybe some that are single, maybe some that are growing gonna be looking for a husband one day. Sure. And I'll make this question even more personal. You know, when you look at your three daughters, what are you praying that they find in a godly man? So, what should women be looking for in a godly man? It's great. Well, they're looking for a dude that's like you, most likely. So no pressure.

SPEAKER_03 45:05

Oh, hopefully better. Hopefully better. Oh, so no pressure.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yeah, I I do think there is something to I I think about that a lot. And something I try to do consistently is take my daughters on one-on-one dates. Yeah. Love them because I want to set a standard. And so this is so they recognize if there's toxic behavior, they're like, whoa, this is not what I'm used to. They they recognize it because they experience something healthy in those formative years of their life. But this is what I want to teach my daughters as they're growing. Um, I I heard this, I cling to this. I I think the mistake a lot of people make, guys and girls, but if I'm just speaking to girls, is they see potential and ignore patterns. So what I want to teach my girls is well, he he really is nice. I he I know he's you know, he gets in trouble in school a little bit, and yeah, he he messed up with that girl a couple times, or but but there's something there. Yeah. And it's like, no, that's not what we're doing. Yeah. Like we see patterns and make our decisions based off patterns rather than potential. So is this dude in church consistently? Is this dude respected respectful to authority and his teachers and his peers consistently? Yeah. Um, yeah, is this is this dude is has there been purity in your conversations? Does he practice purity to the best of his ability? I know we got this flesh that's burning and we got desires, and I'm not expecting perfection. And I want to be open to have those conversations with my daughters too. Like, hey, you you're gonna you're gonna feel things, your body's gonna burn, okay? And to talk about like that doesn't make you dirty, that doesn't make you wrong, but God has a plan and an intention for some of these things. So I I would say um first first and foremost, what are the patterns on this dude's life? And what I will say too is physical intimacy I think muddies the waters emotionally. So when I cross lines physically, which is and it's hard, man, it's hard to go to guard that we have these strong emotions, but I but I notice when I cross lines physically, I think it often leads to compromises. Um I'll I'll allow things to slide. So I think purity helps keep things in the right perspective too. It's like a natural garden. I think that's part of why it's God's design because that really allows for a sober mind for me to just to see your character, the the way you treat me, the way you serve. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

I like that. Look at patterns over potential, and you know, going back to the youth pastor days, you know, how many people did you sit down with because of missionary dating? Right. Like you had these girls that were coming to you talking about you.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Do you think you get breakthrough? They're gonna go break up with them, they come back the next week, they're back together.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah. Like how many conversations did you have with, you know, as they were coming up to you and saying, I really like this guy? And and as you everything that you just mentioned, and essentially what they're doing, they're missionary dating. Yeah. And because they saw the potential, yeah, but they weren't looking at the pattern. And I really like that, you know, yeah, based based upon what they do and how they treat you and how they're living their life, yeah, and not what could be. Yeah, I I think that's a beautiful well put.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Well, they will marry you. I mean, the guy that is a lot like you. Yeah. So I don't know if you've read the book, uh, Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters. Uh I highly recommend it, and it's gonna scare you to death. Really? Uh yeah. Um because there is a lot riding on you, yeah. Uh specifically for your daughters. And if you had a son, there's a lot riding on mom, um, because it's the same thing. It happens with the boys. Okay. Um, but it's a fascinating book on just being that leader, being that loving man, and setting that example. That is what they will look for. Uh, it is the wildest thing because you set the standard. Um, and you start to see that, you see the patterns of repeating uh where um gals will marry their dad who may have been abusive, yeah, uh, or have been an alcoholic or whatever it was, had an addiction. They go and find that same guy. What's weird is they end up with a very similar guy.

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Um, and so it will truly happen. And so how you lead in your home and how you treat and how you love and taking your daughters on dates, that is excellent stuff. And so it's it's it'll the book will scare you, I promise you. You but you need to read it uh because there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

You you've got teenagers who are in church, they love Jesus, they're serving the Lord. And again, not to hijack the the podcast here again, but it's okay, we do it all the time. What was there? Come on. What would you say like, you know, to a young dad who's got seven, six, and four, like what are the things you did well that contributed to sort of keeping your kids on the right path?

SPEAKER_03 49:56

Man, I don't know. That's um, and like no false humility here.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

No false humility. You were intentional to raise your kids. So it wasn't like I just like I know there were things. So I'm not asking you to brag about yourself, but to share some of those wins. There are things you intentionally did well. What are those things?

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Um I'd say one of the big things that stood out stands out in my mind that I will never forget was the first time we kind of really got onto our oldest son. He did something and he got in big trouble for the first time. And he was still just a little guy, he's maybe five or six years old at the most. But he got in big trouble. Burn the house down, huh? Oh, not quite that bad, but he got in big trouble. And but something inside me was like, I can just tell by his demeanor, he has taken this really hard. Yeah, and I'm like, okay, he's taking it harder than I was expecting him to take it, other than just man, I okay, I won't do that again. I got in big trouble. So I go in the room and I sit down with him, like, hey buddy, I just you know what? I just want you to know mom and dad love you, and we always will. And he's like, You do? Because he thought that we didn't love him anymore because we he got in such big trouble. And I was just like, Oh man, I'm so glad I came to talk to you because bud, I don't care. There's nothing that you could ever do, and you could burn the world down, and I will still love you. I might be disappointed if you burn the world down, but I will still love you. And that really hit home for me is like, no matter what, these kids need to know that no matter what happens in life, they will always be loved by mom and dad. That's good. And that I think in his heart that created a foundation of assurance or something. Um because now we can have all kinds of conversations and just be like, hey, just let's talk about it, bud. I mean, you come on, you know better than that. Yeah, yeah, you're right. You know, and we can just be open and honest, and there is a security in that that yeah, he might disappoint us because he chose to make the wrong decision, but man, he knows, and all three of them know they will be loved no matter what. And again, that's a reflection of our Lord and Savior's same way. He's gonna love us. It's just man, I wish you wouldn't have made that choice. That's great.

SPEAKER_04 52:01

You know that's not the right decision to make. Come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Uh but then he still works within that in our free will and helps us get back on track. And that was a huge man, I will never forget that. That was I felt like the Holy Spirit was like, You need to go in there and talk to him. You need to tell him he's still loved. And I'm like, okay. And I did, and then his response, I'm like, whoa, I'm so glad I came in here and said that to him. Yeah, but just um just making an environment where your kids feel comfortable to come talk to you. Man, that's big. Because like even for us now, our youngest, we have three kids. We have a boy, girl, boy, so we are at 16, soon to be 14, and then the next one's just about to start turn 12. Um, and so we're in the thick of it.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Uh, but having that environment where we hope that we have that environment, they feel comfortable talking to us about anything, but really just paying close attention to little things going on. Um, just recently, our youngest, you know, picking him up from school, hey buddy, how's everything? Fine. You get the real short and you sure you seen everything go okay today at school? What happened? Anything happened? And he just you start to push a little bit and pry, and then come find out a lot of kids are making fun of his haircut, and you're like, hmm, I'm gonna go beat up some some sixth graders today, you know? Yeah. But just really you need to dial in. Yeah, I mean, and so but really being aware of just picking up on little things to then to know when to go, you sure you're okay? Yeah, come on, it's all right. Just spirit led. Yeah, man. Spirit led, you know. Uh, because I'll tell you what, kids, uh I mean, when I grew up, the kids I mean, we didn't have to deal with half the stuff that kids are dealing with with all the online kind of stuff or um just the access they have to things, the things, the pressures or the things they're exposed to, it's just it's insane nowadays. But just knowing that they can trust and they home is a secure place. Uh man, that was one of the things we tried to just set that. That if you can create a secure, stable, and consistent environment, there's something that happens inside of a child that they just they feel content, they feel comfortable, but secure. Yeah, uh, and it's all starts with mom and dad. And so little things like a schedule and consistency and routines and things like that, and and then consistency in your attitude and your emotions and how you treat and talk to them, that'll go miles. Man, it will they will feel comfortable and secure, and that goes a long, long way. And if they feel com accepted at home, they won't go searching for it somewhere else. Yeah, that's huge. Uh, especially with the daughter. If they feel loved by dad, they feel secure, and they don't have to go find that somewhere else. And so many times they'll go searching for it, and it shows up on the the physical side, yeah, which then leads to bad things down the road. Um, and so there's there's just a lot riding on parents, it's brutal.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

There's no handbook either, but it's really good. I appreciate you sharing it.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

I don't know if that's the question you asked.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

It was you got I think you answered it in more, man.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

Yeah, I don't and I don't have kids that age, but my parents always thought they do a really good job.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

And it starts with the age your kids are now, right?

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Exactly, and that's what gets to where you were at, and that's model it. Yeah, you know, well, what how can you be that type of man? And or what would your encouragement be for the the women out there and how to look for in a godly man? Yeah, it starts at the home, and you're saying, as a dad, my job is to model to her what that's supposed to look like. I actually stole that question from another podcast, and I heard a pastor answer it, and he had a freshman, uh daughter that was a freshman. Yeah, she was going out on her first date.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

Oh, no way, that's too young. And uh see, that's another thing in the book is you you you make the rules on dating, yeah, whether she likes it or not. Yeah, even though she pushes back and gets mad, she still respects you because she loves you, and there's still something inside of her that goes, Well, my dad he cares for me because he's protecting me. It's good even though they don't show it, you'll deep down the ending of the you'll like the ending of the story.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

And so he answers and he's like, Oh, she went out on our first date, came home and asked how it went, and she's like, I don't think it's gonna work. I I ended it, we're just gonna be friends. And dad was like, Well, what happened, sweetie? She's like, We got to dinner, and he didn't come around and open the door for me. And he's like, She's like, I always see you do it for mom, and you always do it for me. And if he's not willing to do that, then it's not gonna work. Dad was like, Score! We got it, and I was like, Man, that is so But it's the little things, they pick up on the little things. You talk about like even my boys right now, no, my son, he's almost two. Yeah, and you know, we were out doing yard work and stuff, and I had some sunflower seeds in, and I was just spitting them out, you know. And then next thing you know, he's falling over behind me, and he's going, he doesn't even have sunflower seeds. He's just but he sees me spit, and what does he want to do? He wants to spit. And so it's you're you are right on. And my parents always did a really good job of you your kids will rise to the expectations you sit.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

I'd love to hear a little bit about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

If you got time to share it, you know, like they they laid it out with for mu us, they'll our the way they taught us, and the way I'm trying to implement my boys, is kids rise to the expectation expectations you set where they fall to the standard that you lay. And so one thing my parents always did really good is like as we were going in someplace, is say, hey, I'm so proud of you, like for acting this way and being this way. They didn't do the you better not act like this. You're not gonna be one of those kids that do this. No, they set the expectation, like, hey, thank you so much for being somebody that's engaged in conversations. Thank you for being respectful. Thank you for saying yes, sir, no, sir, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. And so going in, they've already laid the expectation. Yeah. Not in like a way of like you better not do this, yeah, but of no, they called me up to it. And then I didn't want to disappoint them.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

So they laid that expectation. So I wanted to live up to that.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

It's good.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

Instead of doing it out of fear, I'm scared of what's gonna happen if that that doesn't want to happen because I just want to I want to make them proud.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

But yeah, there's that compliment of like, ooh, I did I'm I feel like I've done something good and I've made mom and dad proud. Yeah. And you kind of want to do that over and over again. Yeah. And it's just a neat little way to encourage your kids to do the right thing.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

Yeah, and then like I can think of multiple times I've said to my kids before going, hey, don't be crazy when we go in here. It's like we've done it too.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Until you think about it that way, it's like, oh, hey, thank you for being respectful. Thank you for sitting down throughout the entire video.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Even before you went in your tank?

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Before we went in. Wow. Like they were laying the foundation of like, hey, thank you for doing these things. And nowadays, I think what it would be is like, hey, thank you for not being on your phone while we were at dinner with everybody.

SPEAKER_05 58:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

You know, thank you for making eye contact whenever we're doing like you're laying it out there for them before you even get there. So then when they get into it, what are they doing? You're the kids are thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

They're like, oh, this is what mom and dad were talking about. This is what I need to do.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

And dude, I think that's discipleship too. Yeah. I don't think discipleship is just like, let me read you a Bible verse and uh, you know, explain it. I think it's teaching our kids to win in relationships, teaching our kids to to how do you conduct yourself in the space to help them win relationally? How do we to to cultivate their emotional health, you know, all those things. I think all of those things, that's what it looks like to disciple the whole person, you know, and I think about that a lot. Like, I don't want my kids to just be. I I think some of the reason these kids are they're they're an anxious mess and they can't socialize in rooms is because they were just on their phones and parents always let them be on the phones and they're in here, and so they never and they stay in that comfort zone. Like, I wanna I wanna help my kids thrive in spaces and be comfortable and confident in spaces. So I love that, man.

SPEAKER_01 59:25

And that's how Jesus treated his disciples, right? Yeah. What do you tell them say, hey, you guys are gonna go into these cities? You are going to heal people, you are going to cast out demons, you are going to do these things. And if they disrespect you, walk out, wipe your feet off out there and get out of there. And that had to give them confidence, right? He didn't tell them what not to do, he told them, hey, this is what you're gonna live up to. Same thing if we do with that, our kids that way. So beforehand, you're laying that, but then afterwards debrief. Even if it's just on the way home, real quick, you know, looking at him saying, Hey, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 59:53

Yeah, there's a good time to compliment.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Yeah, you did so well at boom, boom, and boom. It's great, right? You know, and so then you're able to follow up and do it well with them.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

Where I thought you were gonna go was that uh talking about how Duke looks, how you treat Emily. Yeah, and he will model that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

Yeah, and so I posted a little funny video, but it's so true is you know, Emily gets home and you know, she's running to the house because we haven't had her drive, she has a direction, whatever. But I always meet her out at the car, help her grab all of her stuff from the day and bring it into the house. Well, I had the little one, I had to hold my baby. Well, Duke is old enough now where he can barely reach the door, and I'm I'm watching, and he goes over, he opens the door, opens it up, and he goes out to the car and tries to open the car door for Emily, and he couldn't do it. So she opens it. Well, then he just starts carrying stuff in for her. And all he can carry is like the water bottle, the lunchbox, all these little things. But he's helping, he's helping mom. Well, how does he know how to do that? Yeah, there's only one way he knows how to do that. Yeah, and it's because we do it. He's your father-in-law do it. Yeah, he sees me do it every day. And so yeah. How old are your kids again? I got one that turns two next month, and then one that's five months.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Okay, he is in the danger zone right now. Yeah, yeah. Uh, one other little thing I would add, um, you know, we the winter months, it's easy to be cooped up and everybody kind of on their own devices and hanging out, doing their own thing. When the weather turned nice, one of the things we love to go out and just take walks. Um, but we started him just instead of just me and my wife and I going on a walk in the evening, we just kind of threw it out there, hey anybody, we're going on a walk. Anybody want to go with us? I figured we'd get three no's. Yeah. We had three yeses, and the whole family was just out on a walk.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

And so it gave us an awesome opportunity to say, well, okay, how was your day? Tell me about it. And we they all got to talk about their day here, the whole family. But I would have never thought something like that, the kids would even. I'm not gonna lie, that's so boring. Yeah, but almost our our youngest, he is 12. Yeah, he literally, so we get up really early. He gets up early with us and goes on a walk at 4 30 in the morning with us now. Wow. I'm just like, I'm we're gonna take advantage of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

I think I think you know, and this is what kids don't understand. And then you get to the other side as a parent and you get a whole new lens of like, yeah, it's one thing to be a child, but then you become a parent and it's like, oh my gosh, this is just and I think parents can wait for their kids to approach them, like, oh, they're not really interested, like, and I think instead there needs to be this violent pursuit of them, whether you think they want you or not, like I think that sends a whole message to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:36

Absolutely, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Oh, there was something I was just gonna tell you and I completely forgot it. Thank God. I got one more question for you. Come on. So leave it, leave it with this. If you had one message to every man that was listening, that's gonna be listening to this, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

A verse that changed my life is John 15, 5. Jesus says, I'm the vine, you're the branches. If you abide in me, or you remain in me, and I remain in you, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing. Okay? So and it sounds overly simple, but the power to produce comes from proximity to Jesus, abiding, remaining in him, not just clenching my cheeks, squeezing my fists, and trying to perform really well, hoping that I'm good enough to be all the things that God's called me to be. Okay? So my my message is we need to learn, we need to be intentional to, we need to prioritize abiding in Jesus. And what does that look like practically? I think it's keeping an awareness of him throughout my whole day, inviting him into every part of my day. Um I'm at the gas station in the morning getting my black coffee before I go to the office. Like it's early. This cashier is really chatty, I I haven't even had my coffee yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

I just don't want to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

I'm just like, you know, just versus man, I'm I'm called to love. The spirit produces kindness. So I actually, hey, I I I appreciate this person sharing who knows what they're walking through. How's your morning going? What do you got going on the rest of the day? Yeah. Because I had an awareness of who Jesus is, who he's shaping and molding me to be. It's this uh, man, I'm on my way. I know I have to have a hard conversation with a coworker, and I'm in my car, rather than just being worried about it and trying to plan the perfect way to say it. It's Jesus, you tell me to turn my anxious thoughts into prayers and you'll give me peace. Lord, would you just be with me today as I'm going to have this conversation? It's these little moments, not like a big, you know, 30 minutes in the morning and I had my journal and my highlighters. It's learning to abide in Jesus. So all that, it's a long answer to your question, is like if you abide in Jesus, he says you will bear much fruit.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

Apart from you, you can do nothing. If we will abide in Jesus, keep an awareness of Jesus, consistently pursue Jesus, we will get the power to produce the things in our life we so desire to produce. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Yeah, and you mean you hit it right on. I I remember I had this talk with guys like, hey, if after I got back from Colorado, elk hunting, going up to the mountains, I came back so refreshed and recharged, and kind of in every area of my life, as you were talking about. And I had this like jealous moment of Jesus of like, man, I would live like this every day, Jesus, if I could do what you did, and before you would go do anything, what would he do? He'd escape to the mountain. And I said, I understand why now. And I'm like, so Lord, why can't you just give me a mountain closer that I can just go climb and spend time with you more like that? And I remember he convicted me hard. And he said, Luke, you're missing it. I am the mountain. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so, like, that's when I started implementing. Before I walk into church, I'm going to take a moment to pause and go to the mountain and pray. Uh, before I walk into the meeting, I'm gonna go to pause, gonna go to the mountain and pray. Before I walk into my house, my biggest ministry field, I'm gonna take a moment to go to the mountain, pause, and pray. And so I think that's exactly right. And I think it's so hard for men to abide in him because we are so focused on go, go, go, go.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

And I think we don't think we're capable. We're intimidated by it. We don't know what it looks like. We overcomplicate it. We we mystify it like I gotta. And it is if we make it hard, we won't do it. I don't even think it's hard. Yeah. Those prayers aren't long. No. It's just getting my heart and my mind on Jesus. Jesus, I just man, I want to follow you well. Yeah. I want to love people well. Give me an awareness of the divine appointments you have for me. Give me boldness today. Give me the courage today. Just you know, it's not, it's it's just this. And if we'll live in that space, bro, man, it's hard to cheat on my wife if that's my conversation all day with the Lord. It's hard, it's hard to not uh treat my coworkers right when like that's my heart posture for the day. It's hard to not love my kids when that's my heart posture for the day. So if we can live there, I I think that is the again, it's that abiding. What you just said, I think it's so practically that's what it looks like to abide. That is the soil for transformation. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:40

Well, it's kind of cool because it comes right back to humility. Yeah. And going back to the humility coming from the first beatitude of porn spirit, knowing you don't have what it takes to do this, and you have to humble yourself and trust in God and ask him for help. It's very much you gotta have God in all this. His help, you have to understand, I can't figure this out on my own, and I gotta go ask for help. Yeah, and he's the one that's gonna bring it for me. It's kind of cool how we just came full circle back to humility. And we didn't plan that, it's not scripted.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

Yeah, it's amazing. It's good. Well, Mark, thanks for taking the time to join us on the podcast, man. Love you guys too.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Was I right on what you're preaching on with uh when I brought that up earlier? I tried to get us to segue to your sermon. Absolutely. Um we didn't get a chance to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:23

Yeah, title of the message is Come in the Room. And uh it it's I I'm so excited to preach it. This will come out after they've heard it, right? Next Wednesday. Okay. So yeah, man, it's it's gonna be um Yeah, I think there's something for us to learn from this woman who walks into a room. Uh so Luke 7, starting verse 35, is it right?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:50

Somewhere in there?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:51

Yeah. And just throws off social customs, makes no excuses, just kind of raw approaches Jesus, pure worship, doesn't let anything hold her back. Um, I think preachers, we all kind of have our burden, you know, like ever every preacher you listen to, they kind of have their thing. And I think a lot of what shapes that we'll we'll preach the whole Bible, we love the whole Bible, but some guys are more passionate about holiness. Some guys are it's grace, you know, sort of we all have these kind of passion pockets. And I think one one thing that's near and dear to my heart, I think what kept me from following Jesus well and actually submitting to the things that he had for me is just believing that he could use somebody like me, dude. Too broken, too stupid, don't have the history, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think this is gonna preach those people in the room of like, don't let anything stop you from approaching Jesus, just approach Jesus and it'll change everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:47

So if he's plan is for you to do it, you're gonna do it. Yeah, yeah. He's gonna give you what you need. Yeah. No, it was cool. I've I got to do the small group questions off of your the verses you sent, kind of the title, and then kind of getting a refresh on that piece of scripture where there's the contrast of the Jesus is divided to d invited to dinner with Simon the Pharisee.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Yeah, and then a Which is kind of a strange thing, anyways, when you consider the typical dynamics between Pharisees and the Pharisees. It's like, okay, we'll see how this goes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

But then it's interrupted by a lady that knows who Jesus is, and she kind of crashes the party. And she comes in there weeping, uh, crying, and she pours perfume on his feet and wipes his feet with her tears and her hair. Yeah. And he's Jesus starts making claims, your sins have been forgiven because of your faith. Yeah. And that how she showed love, and the Pharisee could care less. And he's more just bothered by this lady rolling in there, and then they're wondering, how could you forgive sins? Who do you think you are? It's just the contrast of the two people and her heart posture versus theirs. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's a great reminder of uh how love is the only thing that counts and how we express it in our faith. So amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

Very cool. Well, we got a busy day today. Got to we've got to go down for the men's conference. We better get down there. Yeah, let's make it happen. So, all right. Well, thank you for joining us on another episode of uh May Kevin Crowd, and we'll see you guys back here next week. Thank you, Mark. Yeah.