Make Heaven Crowded

Did Jesus Reject Legalism? | The Beatitudes Explained | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 32

• TeamFBC • Season 1 • Episode 32

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we dive into one of Jesus’ most powerful teachings: The Beatitudes — and what they reveal about legalism, religion, and the heart of God.

Did Jesus reject legalism? What was His issue with the Pharisees? And how do the Beatitudes challenge the way many people still approach faith today?

We explore questions like:

• What are the Beatitudes actually teaching?
• Why did Jesus confront religious hypocrisy so strongly?
• What’s the difference between obedience and legalism?
• Can Christians today fall into the same mindset as the Pharisees?
• What does true righteousness and humility look like?

This conversation is about more than rules — it’s about the posture of the heart. Jesus didn’t come to create performative religion; He came to transform people from the inside out.

If we misunderstand the Beatitudes, we can miss the heart of Jesus entirely. But if we truly understand them, they change the way we see God, ourselves, and others.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 32
📖 Topics: The Beatitudes, Legalism, Pharisees, Heart of God
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_02

Well, hey, thanks for joining us for Make Heaven Crowded. This is the episode, another episode of where the three pastors of Team FBC come together. We talk a little bit what happened on Sunday, but also we go a little bit deeper and talk about what is going on in the world today. My name is Roger, joined with Pastor Luke and Pastor uh Jordan. Uh sorry, I've got a lot of things going on in my head right now. We just got done talking, by the way, on the war uh between Israel and Iran. Um and uh so I I've got to get out of the mentality. That's not what we're talking about. No, we're not talking about that. So I've got to get out of that mentality, and I now have to go into the Beatitudes, which is very different. Um, and so which is what you preached on Sunday.

SPEAKER_01

So we're talking about almost 20-year-old politics. We went back 18 years.

SPEAKER_02

I I I I never thought I would cite Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, like because we're talking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. And so maybe we just do that as an extra episode because I think that people can want the outskirts of this episode.

SPEAKER_03

They're gonna want like, hey Jaden, release the files of what happened before.

SPEAKER_01

If Jaden released the releases the files of the pre-show, uh that'll be interesting.

SPEAKER_03

But speaking of Sunday, it was Mother's Day. So, Jordan, happy Mother's Day. Uh thanks. Um yeah, it was a it was a fun Sunday. It was a packed house.

SPEAKER_02

Very packed, yeah. It I Jordan said it earlier. I thought it was well said. It it looked like eat like a mini Easter. Yeah, yeah. It felt that way. The energy um was incredible. And uh one one very humbling thing as a pastor is to stand in the lobby and look around and say, I I don't know so many people because they are new and they're returning. And so um, and to see all of the kids, Jim Terry, who was working the desk, he came up to me and he's like, We got to figure out a way to get these kids quicker because there's so many kids that were coming that needed to get sent to the children's.

SPEAKER_03

You're like, that's why we're trying to build a hallway.

SPEAKER_02

And literally is what I told him. I said, when we get this hallway built, it's gonna be a lot easier. I said, in the meantime, we just got to do our best. But that's a great problem to have.

SPEAKER_03

Which by the way, we're about to start that capital campaign, so stay on the loop of that. Yeah, we are excited about that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So long time coming. Yeah, we've been wanting that done for quite a while now.

SPEAKER_02

So you preached on the Beatitudes and uh which is not a Mother's Day centered message because it's a part of our series, but you were able to connect it where I think mothers in the room could when we talk about um you know how we can be blessed as believers and who are blessed as Jesus goes through these Beatitudes. So uh you can kind of take it from there. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so we uh are in this sermon series called Made New, where we're talking about what it looks like to live in this made new life, and it goes through our fresh start material that we have in the class we have. And uh get when it gets to this point and fresh start, it actually the title of it is Living Like Christ, and this section is the Beatitudes of the Beginning of Living Like Christ. So as we're made new from the inside out, what does that begin to look like? And that's where we were able to hammer home. Hey, the Lord lays out these beatitudes for us. Jesus goes in his biggest sermon that we have recorded, and he starts it off with what we call the beatitudes. And as Jordan and I were talking back and forth of what that looks like, is we many people read those as circumstantial. Hey, when you're in these circumstances, this is how you need to act, but they're actually foundational to our faith. And the beatitudes really they're the starting point of the not just the rest of the gospel, but the rest of the New Testament and what we read. And a lot of it you can go back to that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so much of what Jesus says in the Sermon and the in the Sermon on the Mount, starting with the Beatitudes, it gets repeated and stated in different multiple different ways throughout to the rest of the New Testament. And the foundation of this changing how we change, it has to change on the inside first.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so these these are these inner attitudes to be that we have to work on or do from the inside. And it it then it's an inside-out change that then, as you you know, if you continue to go through the fresh start material, then it starts talking about the external things we start to do after changing on the inside. But my favorite is how, and obviously, God has a purpose in this with the very first beatitude, uh, poor in spirit, and what that means, and how that until you have that, the rest you can't do. That's right. All the way through the rest of everything you learned throughout the all the lessons and the gospels um and the New Testament, until you get this the poor in spirit down and understand that, you're not gonna get the rest, and it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and that's what if I had more time on Sunday, I think I would have emphasized the building blocks. Like they really are, hey, if you are poor in spirit, well, the next thing, guess what? That means you're gonna mourn your sin. Hey, the next one, if you're that, then you blessed are the meek, you know. And so from that, guess what? When you're meek that way and you turn the reins of your life over to Christ, you're in a hunger and thirst for righteousness. Like, so they just keep building upon one another as we live in that relationship with God, you know, and live ending with if you do all of those things, be ready because you're gonna be persecuted. Yeah, the world will hate you, the world will hate you if you do all those things.

SPEAKER_01

Because it's so contrary to the world, starting out with the porn spirit of humility. Yeah. Uh, but but in that, the not just humility and being humble, it's the knowing you don't have what it takes spiritually and you must rely on God to do this. You have to put yourself aside and say, I can't do this. Yeah, I need your help. And it's kind of funny to think that discipleship starts with admitting you have a problem and admitting you can't do this on your own. It's kind of like a 12-step program or whatever, but much better. Um, it's but to think that to improve myself, I have to admit it and then come ask for help. Because that's not that, even right there is not how the world operates. The world operates on a suck it up, figure it out, um, go spend some money to do it or make yourself feel better, or whatever it is. Um, it does not ever start with humility and owning it and then saying, God, I need your help. And that's even another beautiful thing about who God is, is He He has set this up that we have to come to Him for help. And that's the only way you're gonna get it right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so that's what, like, even talking about the blessed part of that is many people I think hear that blessing, and in today's uh American culture is I think they hear that as like kind of like the prosperity gospel, right? You do these things and you are going to receive a blessing. But Roger obviously it has nothing to do with the prosperity gospel and talking about that blessed and what Jesus is is hitting at. Yeah. And he is talking about, you know, if that actual Greek word that is used there, he is literally talking about the inner state of joy. Hey, when you do these things, it is showing how spiritually prosper you are, not talking about the physical wealth that we may have, or hey, if you do these things, then good things are gonna happen to you. It's talking about that inner state of joy that we receive.

SPEAKER_02

That's where I think you have to define what does it mean to be blessed? Um, I think of one of my favorite George Strait songs, um, Amarillo by Morning, where he says, I ain't got a dime, but what I've got is mine. I ain't rich, but Lord, I'm free. Like that to me, that's a very secular lyric, but that to me is he's saying, I don't have a dime, but hey, I'm not rich, but I'm free. And I think that is the idea of when you're blessed to be able to say, I've got a family, I've got people that love me, and I've got people that I'm able to love. I'm, you know, all of these things. And that begins with faith. It begins by saying, Hey, in this world, there may be things I may not receive uh outward blessings, I may not receive a mansion or a corvette or these things, but here's what I do have: I have hope of eternal life. I know I will be united with my family in heaven. I know that the same God that created the universe made me in his image. Like that is where I think Jesus is saying, hey, some of you here that may be the most blessed, you may not have a tunic to show for it, but you are going to have eternal life, and you're going to have blessings that far exceed a monetary. And I think that that's the issue, not to go onto a prosperity gospel rant, but when you water down blessings with paper, being, hey, the more money I have, the more blessed I am, you are giving a cheap version of what it means to be blessed. Some of the people that have the most paper money in the world are some of the most unblessed and unrighteous and miserable human beings on this face of the earth.

SPEAKER_01

But that's just how we gauge things as humans and living in the world that we live in. We always gauge how good things are going by, hey, things are going, you know, or how blessed we are by how good things are going, by hey man, life's been good, nothing's breaking down. I got money in my pocket, I'm happy because things are cheery, everybody's treating me nice, I don't have any problems. But the you know, as it is, God sees everything from a whole different way and he turns all that upside down. And as you were saying, blessing is not anything that we can actually say, like the clothes we wear or the things we have or the money in our pocket. It's all about from God's perspective, you're blessed because you know me. Not me, but God. You know who Christ is. You have eternal life through Christ. You're blessed. I mean, you can you can be, you know, we look at blesses as like you said, family, and knowing that you're going to see your family in heaven. Those are the world does never look at blessing that way. It's always from a I got a lot of money, I got a nice house, I got good cars, everything's working great, work's going well, everybody's happy. It's just it's a whole nother perspective of what God sees today.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and that's why I think people should it should be mandatory that people should go on a mission trip in a third world country. Oh my goodness. Because you you meet the Christians over there, and they have nothing. Nothing. But they have everything. And it almost it makes you mad at American Christians because we have everything, but yet so many of us have nothing.

SPEAKER_02

No, I remember when we went to Tulsa and I was talking to uh Peggy who was ahead of the community. Because Tulsa's not a third world country. Well, it is there might be both of it that are those. This part of this part of Tulsa we were in, Audriana said was worse than the worst part of Mexico. Like she because it it was a it was a they literally called the community Little Mexico, and it was it was dilapidated like you've never seen before. It was the most impoverished area I've ever seen in my entire life with my own eyes. And I remember talking about Little Mexico sounds like a it sounds like a good Mexican restaurant. Great Mexican recipe. The best case of Guacamala. Yeah. No, but in this area, I remember I was talking to Peggy as we're about to go out here, and I say, Are there any neighborhoods you guys don't go to? Like that you're kind of afraid of? And she said, The one area that we feel the most animosity towards is, and she named this neighborhood I'd never heard of. And I said, Well, why? And she said, Oh, well, because that's the wealthiest neighborhood in Tulsa. She said, We will go to an area where we know there's gang activity, and we will be welcomed more in that area than we will in the nicest neighborhood in Tulsa, because the nicest neighborhood in Tulsa, they have what they feel they've already been blessed by their own cheap artificial blessings. But you go into the bad part of town and you say, How how have you been blessed? and their answer may be nothing at all. So you ex you give them Jesus and they have nothing, and they're they can't get enough of it. You go to an area where they say, Oh, we already have everything, well, where does that lead Jesus when we talk about those blessings? I don't need anything. What do I need to be rescued from? And that I've got my 401k.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but the the blessing that Jesus is talking about when he says blessed is the person that does these things, it's that state of inner peace, that state of inner joy, inner joy, and comfort that is found only in Christ Jesus Himself. He's saying, So when you finally get to the point where you can be these things, that's the blessing that you feel. But you know, you talked about Mother's Day, and it really studying this, it hit me, you know, being a being a parent, reading this in a new lens of it's not just us being blessed in that inner portion of us, but also when we live this way, what a blessing it is to our heavenly father. And, you know, as parents, when your kids they do things and they finally get it, what a blessing it is to you as a parent. And the same thing, if we feel that way as earthly parents, how much more would our heavenly father feel that way as well whenever we finally get it? And so reading it within those lens, it I don't know, it is pretty powerful whenever you read it with the lens of your heavenly father as he's sharing this uh with us. But yeah, going into the Beatitudes and the framework of it, Matthew, his whole gospel, right, he is showing the fulfillment of Jesus from Old Testament law, now bringing in the new. And one of those things that he is trying to get his readers to understand and readers to get and his audience to understand is that, hey, Jesus is the new Moses, he's the one that is coming. And so, whenever he's sharing this and shows that Jesus going up on a mountainside, crowd of people gathered around him, everybody has that imagery of Moses going up Mount Sinai in the wilderness. That they see that taking place. Difference is Moses had to go up himself and bring the law down. This, Jesus saying, Hey, everybody's invited. Everybody's invited to the mountain this time. And so he goes up, and where Moses came down and he brought the Ten Commandments, and he could not even see the face of God. Now, all these people, Jesus is bringing this these new commandments, these new things in the Sermon in the Mount, and everybody's able to stand face to face with Jesus, who is God. And so then he's able to give us what we call the Beatitudes, which we talk about the rest of the New Testament, kind of stems from it. But yeah, you talked about the first one, the foundation, the building block, is blessed are the poor in spirit. And that is essentially just saying, hey, we are spiritually bankrupt. We can bring nothing to the table. We are broken individuals, we are broken people. Um, honestly, when I read this, I just used the illustration a couple weeks ago, so I couldn't use it again. But I thought of jelly roll uh up on stage at the the Grammys, right? When he talked about how he was in the jail cell, and the only thing he had was a radio and a little Bible, and that's he was so broken there was only one place to turn to, and that is to Jesus. And all of us eventually have to get there and humble ourselves and say, Hey, there's nothing I can do. I'm poor in the spirit. I gotta come to him, and I need him. He's the only one that can satisfy that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we've had a lot of people that have part of their testimony is they found Jesus in jail. Yeah. Uh because they were at the they had to get to their lowest point with nowhere else to go, and that was their only other option to try.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I'd say you don't have to wait till like a lot of people wait till their lowest moment to turn. You don't have to wait till the lowest point. Uh no. But you do have to recognize that you are broken and that you are spiritually bankrupt and that you can bring nothing to the table spiritually when it comes to that.

SPEAKER_02

I've never met anyone who ha accepted Christ after winning the lottery. And I I don't know if you in history if we could ever find, hey, I just won four 1.3 you know million dollars. Um I'm gonna turn to Jesus. No, it's it's usually the opposite. It's the only way to look up is when you're on your back.

SPEAKER_01

But I think so much of it is just us learning how to get past ourselves. I even I even joke with a lot of people, you know, that are talking about, oh, you know, if you ask, hey, how are things going? Man, I think I've been really under attack by the uh the enemy. So much of you know, people think it's spiritual warfare. I think it's so much uh we're our own worst enemies. Yeah, and part of that is just hum humbling yourself, saying you gotta own that you're not enough. And you have to get past yourself. Because so many people just rely on themselves and I can get this. It's if I just want to get it done right, I'm gonna do it myself. You gotta get past all that of yourself.

SPEAKER_03

So the question is like, that's how we meet Jesus, is getting to that point of being, hey, we're spiritually bankrupt after we receive that relationship with Christ. Why do so many of us feel then we have to go into earn it mode? And that's what we see as pastors a lot of oh, people, even after they give their life to Christ, they still feel unworthy, unholy, all these different things, and they so easily forget what got them there in the first place. Was a free gift?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there's some guilt that I think may set in and people feel like, Man, I owe God a lot for what he's done. Yeah. Now, obviously, we don't think that he sees it that way, but it is a nice motivator. Right. Um, it it does motivate us to, man, I want to do whatever I can to, I mean, whether you're trying to pay back that debt, or if you just feel overjoyed for what God has done for you, and you just want to do good things, it is a good motivator. Yeah. Once you once it hits your heart of wow, I'm pretty rotten and I do need to owe myself to Christ and living for him and doing his ways. Not that you're ever gonna pay it back because it's impossible. I'd say it is a good motivator, absolutely. But just that idea of understanding, man, I am I am not a good human being. Yeah, and I do need to do something better. Not that I gotta earn anything, but yeah, I I don't because I don't think there's so many people I don't think they get that.

SPEAKER_03

No, but that's why this is, I think, building, because you go to the next one. Because you should get to the point where you hate your sin. You mourn over your sin. Yeah, and I think that's a that's a hard one for people because they say, Blessed are those who mourn. I think we just think of general sadness when people are crying. Someone's passed away, something like that. And I think, yes, it is true that whenever we mourn and we take it to Jesus and we lament before him, he will comfort us. That is not the exact context that Jesus is talking about in this instance. What he's talking about specifically here is our spiritual being of hey, you gotta mourn your own sin. Like you gotta, you gotta hate it, you gotta grieve it just as much as God hates it, just as much as God grieves it. And when you do that, that's when you start finally feeling comfort through the presence of the Holy Spirit, and that's able to bring. Um, and I'm we won't have to go through all of these, but just the the next one I think that is really really but in that you feel comfort because your sins are forgiven.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. And so that's the big part of the you will be comforted because although you mourn your sin, you can then have joy because you're blessed, but your sins they they're not against you, they're not gonna be weighed against you when you go before Jesus and whenever you go to heaven. So there's some there's a lot of like, whoo, thank you, Lord. Thank you, Jesus, that you have paid that. Because man, that's it. Well, because mourning is not gonna be good.

SPEAKER_03

Mourning leads to repentance. If you don't mourn your own sin, you're not gonna repent for your sins. And if you can't repent for your sins, you're not open to receive the forgiveness of your sins, which brings that ultimate comfort, right? And so, like, that's um you have to get to the point where you mourn it so you'll repent for it so that you can actually receive the forgiveness that Jesus has already offered, yeah, offered you. Yeah, yeah. And then the next one, like, and this was I don't know why, like just growing up, it always tripped me up, but when it says blessed are the meek.

SPEAKER_01

This one's one of my favorite once you've finally learned what it means.

SPEAKER_03

You know, because when we hear meek, we hear weak, right? And so when we think when we think of weak, we're like, you know, no man wants to be meek. No man wants to be weak. Are you hot? Are you having hot flashes?

SPEAKER_02

Burning up up here. We've got to do something about this air. I'm actually sure it's not the energy drink getting your blood pumping. No, I think the energy drink's cooling me down. It's like, are you alright? No, I'm like, I'm like the top of my head is wet. Hot up here. Yeah. Bring it the fan. I know, yeah. I'm like shorts and a t-shirt, and you're dying. You can't go any less. I'm feeling good. I feel any less.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you can. Well, I guess I'm good. Yeah. But that's what like have to go to audio only. That's a podcast. I'm all right with it.

SPEAKER_03

No, just keep the video rolling.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Let it let it flow. But like that's where the blessing meet, like, we think of weak when we think of that, but that's not what Jesus is talking about at all. He's talking about, hey, you have to get to the point where he really is the Lord of your life. You have to turn over those reins and let him be the Lord of your life. And that's when we talk about inherit the earth. That was fun to dive into of like, hey, we spend the whole purpose of our world, our life, trying to inherit the things of this earth, of this world. But in fact, we actually gain all of that when we finally get to the point where we turn it all over. And when Jesus comes back on his horse, um, then we will then receive the new heavens and the new earth. And that's what we get to inherit. So uh, yeah, beautiful part there. But the those three are powerful because just like following the Ten Commandments, and I touched on this on Sunday, but the Ten Commandments, the first three, talk about a vertical relationship with God. Um, and then that fourth one is kind of like a hinging point of talks about the vertical relationship, but starts to get into the personal of obey your Sabbath, where I think the fourth beatitude is in the same boat of hey, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. It can be considered part of the vertical, but also this is where it starts to get, you know, to you and to spread to others. And so, yeah, he talks about the blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. And this will kind of kick off our conversation that we're about to have in a little bit where we talk a little bit about legalism. Uh, because I think when people hear that hunger and thirst for righteousness, they very much can take that out of context. And I think what we see from a lot of legalistic pastors or churches is them taking this verse out of context to meet their agenda of what they are trying to do. Um, but yeah, Jesus is talking about those who hunger and thirst for Jesus and Jesus only. That's the only way that's gonna feel. And I talked to I use the Tom Brady example, right, where he just won three Super Bowls, MVP, had a supermodel wife at the time, and he sit down that 60 minutes, and they're like, Tom, how's it feel? You have everything, and he simply responds, there has to be more to life than this. And uh basically quote Shania Twain.

SPEAKER_01

I would hope so because he's the only one that ever achieved it. So that means nobody else is ever going to get to that pinnacle.

SPEAKER_02

I think the issue with that, or the issue people have with that verse uh is that when we hear righteousness, we automatically assume self-righteousness. Because that's really in our culture, if I were to tell you, oh yeah, I'm one of the most righteous people you'll ever meet, you're immediately thinking, oh, he he he meant he's one of the most self-righteous people, and we just learned that based off of what he said. So the idea that we almost walk away from the term righteous, because in Christianity we're taught we uh only one is righteous, which is Christ. I mean, Paul says no man is righteous. So if Paul is telling us over here that we cannot receive righteousness on our own, and yet Jesus is saying, however, blessed are those that thirst for righteousness, how do we wrestle those two different passages together to say, okay, if we can't achieve full righteousness, but we should still be chasing it, how does that work?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I think it's a good question. That and what I talked about on Sunday, and we can dive more into it, is Jesus is, like you said, the perfect fulfillment of righteousness. But because of his life and way he lived, he now we now receive that title of having that right. Standing before God. I think we take that righteousness and we reduce it down to right activity. But really, what that righteousness is looking at is from God's perspective of us being in right standing with Him. And that's what makes us justified as righteousness is like it's just if we had never sinned. And so it's not based upon our effort, it's based upon what Jesus has done for us and the way God sees us as his children. And now, with that, us being a child of God and he sees us as righteous, it's almost like, okay, yeah, now that we are in that relationship, yes, now we should that should overflow out of us of living accordingly in that way.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and uh, and so I think when we talk about righteousness versus self-righteousness, the problem is is in this, you talked about churches and pastors, and I think that that's where people run away from church is this idea of self-righteousness. And um, you know, I quoted in my sermon a couple weeks ago the number one argument for atheism in the 21st century is Christians who live as if they are perfect, but then prove to everyone that they are not, right? And I think that that's the idea of when you become a Christian, you should not become more outwardly self-righteous, you should become more inwardly humble, but your actions should should have more signs of righteousness. You you do those things not so God will love you, but because he loves you, you now have that realization. And because of that, we do strive for righteousness, we do strive to to keep those commandments.

SPEAKER_03

I want to get back to that because the the biggest question I have is Jesus, the only righteous person, a perfectly righteous person, he did not judge the sinners, but he loved them. He sat with them and he showed them a new way in how to come into the kingdom instead of pushing them away.

SPEAKER_02

Well, when did that turn? I would say he loved them. He there there was judgment in that rel like eventually, yes, he did love them.

SPEAKER_03

I'm talking about like he didn't treat them the way the Pharisees did.

SPEAKER_02

Correct, yeah, yeah. Self-righteous judgment. Self-righteous judgment. There was judgment in saying, hey, go and sin no more, right? Right? That is that that requires some level of judgment, but that's a righteous judgment. And that's where John, I think it's John 7.14, when you judge, judge with a righteous judgment. So I think the way Jesus loved was to judge righteously. The Pharisees were only judging self-righteously.

SPEAKER_03

I guess I'll put it this way. When they left Jesus, the people felt loved. When they left the Pharisees, they felt condemned.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah, now that I yeah, I I would I would concur. And what uh Mark preached on a few weeks ago, the the prostitute who walks in in uh you know the home, and uh the Pharisees immediately are like, What in the world, you know, Jesus, do you not know who she is? And uh, you know, the love that she experienced from Jesus in that moment, that's a perfect, you know, kind of comparison of the love that was the judgment that was happening over here and the love that was happening right there.

SPEAKER_03

So the question that I want to talk about here in a bit is why have we taken a backslide, people, Christians taken a backslide, and have taken on the identity more of the Pharisees than they have of Jesus. Because that's the easiest thing to do. It is not going to talk about that right now. We got we got to talk more about the Beatitudes, but that's what I want to dive into. Okay, we'll jump into it.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's just human nature. We the more we know, the more better we think we are. Uh the more we have, the more better we think we are from other people. It's so easy to do. And so Pharisees, they thought they were closer to God, they're from the line of Abraham, they had more, they were more self-righteous, and so they they lorded it over people. They looked down upon people, they made people feel guilty for what they're doing when they were just as bad, if not worse. And that those are one of the things part of the you were talking about the Sermon on the Mount. One of my favorite parts of the Sermon on the Mount is when Jesus gets into the you may have heard, but I say, where he was correcting so much of what the Pharisees were doing wrong and how they had twisted or perverted or uh done the law incorrectly and they were using it wrong, he was fixing it uh and trying to take it back to a way it was originally intended because they thought they knew better.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then you even think about that. You have the Ten Commandments and you have the Levitical law, but then they added how many more rules on top of it because they thought it needed more. Yeah. That was just their own self-righteous. We think we know better. Uh, but I think that's just part of human nature.

SPEAKER_02

But I think in the 21st century, the easiest thing for me to do is to look at you and say, your life would be better if you changed this. That is so easy for me to do. Do you know the hardest thing for me to do is for me to look at myself and say, if you change this one thing, your life would be better. It is easy for us to look at the world and say, if you did this, your life would be better. If you did this, you would be more happy. If you did this, you would be less sad. When I do it looking in the mirror, it became it goes from the easiest thing in the world to the most difficult thing in the world. And I think the Pharisees, it was easy for them to look at this woman, to look at whoever and say, This is why your life stinks. This is why. But for them to look in the mirror and to say, Oh, well, I'm this legalistic person that doesn't represent anything of the love of God. What about you? Well, they didn't want to do that, right?

SPEAKER_01

So I think that that's how that's the whole pointing out the speck in the other person's eye when you have a law. Yeah, and so it's just and but I'd also add it's one thing to self-revaluate yourself, but then also to tell somebody this is what you need to do. That there's sometimes there's a lovingness to that if you do it gracefully, but then not just point it out and say, but I want to help you with that. Let me walk along with you to help you figure this out. But in the sense you can kind of be doing that together because you're you could also be, you may see it because you do it too. And then you can walk together in that and fix it for the both of you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think we know it. Can you define legalism off the top of your head for those that are watching?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean, so legal, the word legal comes from the word or the word law and legal are intertwined, and so the law is the list of things that we have to follow to be righteous or unrighteous. And so um, legalism would be a hyperemphasis on following the law, following the things that we have to do and not to do, to be in God's good graces, to be in his bubble of love. And if we don't follow those laws, if we don't follow these rules, then we leave that bubble of love. Bubble of love is a that sounds like a good 70s like that.

SPEAKER_01

I was thinking bubble of love.

SPEAKER_02

Bubble of love, yes. His his little aura.

SPEAKER_03

But that's the idea. So the question people would have, follow up, nothing that you said right there was horribly wrong. No. So what's the bad part?

SPEAKER_02

Well, so I I will quote uh the late great Brendan Manning when he said that when we do things because or no, and I I quoted it earlier, but I'm going to do these things so God loves me versus I do these things because God loves me. That's the difference between legalism and grace. Legalism says, I need to do this so God will love me. Check these boxes. Grace is I'm going to do these things because it has been revealed to me God's love for me. So those are that's very black and white, right? Because you can have people that are like, well, I agree on the grace side, but I also think those people that, you know, they they're doing this, they need to do this before this or whatever. So I think the problem is, is that for many of us we we speak a gospel of grace. It's easy to preach grace, it's very easy to do. But then how we live, it's a lot easier to fall back into that legalistic tendency.

SPEAKER_03

And so they use that law where it becomes a problem. They use that legalism, that law as a thumb to put press it over people instead of using it as a way of like, hey, of extending grace and inviting them into the kingdom of the world.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and the best example I think is Jesus healing the man with the with the lame hand. And the Pharisees are watching and they say, We got you. You did it on the Sabbath. And and Jesus basically says, What's more important? I keep your version of the Sabbath, yeah, or I help this man who desperately needs me. And the Pharisees knew the correct answer was, well, you need to help the man. But their legalism had forced them to say, No, if someone is dying, if there's someone who needs needs CPR, you do not give them CPR on the Sabbath. That was their version of legalism.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he's didn't he even use the example if your donkey falls into a pit, aren't you not going to try and save it even though it's on the Sabbath? You're going to do that for an animal. Why wouldn't you do that for a human being?

SPEAKER_03

Well, he does all that in the same Matthew 12, right there, right? He starts off by talking about the plucking of the grain on the Sabbath, and they call him out on that, and then he has heals the man with the withered hand. All of that is within that Matthew 12 context.

SPEAKER_01

And that's a really good chosen episode, by the way. I don't know if I've seen that. Yeah, it's really good. I'm pretty sure that's where the the uh priest gets in his face and starts to challenge Jesus, and that's where Jesus drops the whole I am the law, and then they try and take him out to throw him off the cliff. And I think that's that episode. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

But like that's what I would say is though we love God's law. I think we're talking about how they are applying it versus how we are applying it is totally different, right? Our mindset behind it.

SPEAKER_02

Because, and that's what I mean. Well, I think one of the key uh premises of they say we were gonna kill Jesus is him saying, Hey, those hundreds of laws that you have in the Old Testament, hey, I'm gonna narrow it down to two. You you don't need a scroll, you can actually write this on a post-it note. Two things love the Lord dear God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, love your neighbors yourself. All of the laws fall under those two commandments, and they heard that and they gasped. I mean, because that was just so unprecedented that he would say something like that.

SPEAKER_03

In my experience with people who are underneath that legalistic mindset is they are more concerned about being right instead of showing compassion to help somebody get into heaven. And I think that's the dangerous of it is they want to be more right than they are about caring about somebody enough and loving them enough to have a conversation with them that's gonna help them in the world.

SPEAKER_02

And sometimes and sometimes that legalism can come from the law. I mean, you can say, for example, hey, um, you know, the old covenant talks about pork. And if you you know, messianic Judaism is a big thing now. A lot of Christians are are falling into this. And the idea of, well, no, we don't eat pork because of the law. That is textbook legalism. What I think is actually worse than that is when we become legalism outside of the law. For example, um so and so, or let's say, you know, uh there's a kid that comes into a youth group and he's wearing a hat. Um, my tradition tells me you don't wear hats, or that's just an example. That doesn't come from a law, that comes from tradition, and tradition can be a good thing. But what I see sometimes Christians do is their legalism even falls outside the confines of what the actual law is, that we as humans innately will create our own law. And if you break my own invisible law, well then I have a uh an opportunity to judge you or to be self-righteous over you. So I think when we talk about this idea of legalism, yes, sometimes people can use biblical arguments, but as human beings, sometimes we create our own law and we say, hey, you you you know, you're breaking what the the view that I have that you need to follow. And I think that's where churches become And they're missing Jesus in all of that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because they're putting their own human preference above who Jesus actually is.

SPEAKER_02

But that and that is where you look around and you wonder why aren't most churches baptizing people? Why aren't most churches growing? Why are most churches now better used for Friday morning yard sales than Sunday morning church services? It's because the world is always watching us. We have a microscope on us. Do you know why we have a microscope on us? Because we say we are our our view is the only way to get to heaven. We have monopolized truth through Jesus Christ. That's a bold claim. So the world is watching us and and they are observing us and they are analyzing us. And so often we have that standard that we've set for ourselves and we fail miserably. And the world sees that and says, Nah, I'm good staying at home. I don't need that. What you guys are selling, I I wouldn't buy that for for 10 cents. I I'm good with what I have. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, I mean, we've been we've had people come to our doors that have the tattoos and the piercings, and they've literally said before they walk in the door, Am I accepted in here? I mean, and it literally it's uh because there is that worldly view of the church that oh, they think they're better, that you have to be a certain way, you gotta look a certain way, dress a certain way, have a certain act in order to be accepted in, and that's not how Jesus offered.

SPEAKER_02

I had a drug, there's a true story. I had a drug court guy before his first Sunday here. He texted me and he was afraid because he didn't own a tie. And I said, bro, anytime I do a wedding, I have to watch a YouTube video on how to own a tie. I owned like three. Uh Steven Strauss gave me some ties. And I said, Bro, anytime I do a wedding, I gotta re-watch a YouTube video on how to tie this dude. Because then in the sheriff's office, they gave us a clip on top of it's the best, right? So like I said, I said, if I had a tie to lend you, I wouldn't lend it to you. I said, You show up and whatever you have on, assuming you have something on.

SPEAKER_03

And thankfully, we have one dress code. Just wear something. Wear something. We're close. Yeah, that would be good. We're close.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so and listen, we've had people sit in our sanctuary barefoot because and so and then that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01

So but that but the stereotype or the perception has come from somewhere for people to think that they weren't good enough to come to church.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Or and which is unfortunate. And again, it goes back to human nature. I think knowledge puffs people up, status, money, possessions, it puffs people up. Yeah. And it's unfortunate. So then they when they puff get puffed up, they think they're better and that people are below them, and it just causes people to turn away.

SPEAKER_02

But I think if you look at adolescent psychology, we're taught at a young age. You you've heard the term tattletale. And sometimes being a tattletale is a good thing if somebody hit me in the face in preschool. But I remember like kids being a tattletale because they they they're given a version of a law, they're given rules, and as a young child, you see another kid break one of the rules, you may not even know why. I'm telling you don't even know why the rule's important, why the rule was instigated. But a child sees that and they immediately know, you broke the law, you broke the rule, and they run to the teacher. It's a biological thing that we do. And I think as humans, as adults, we're no different than the kid at Bullfrogs and Littlefishes. We've created this law. Some of it comes from the Bible, some of it comes from grandpa, some of it just comes from our own intuition. And we see somebody go against that, and all of a sudden, I'm telling on you, you're not supposed to do that. And that's where we get into that routine, I think, of legalism. I think it starts from a very young age.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think it all it's dangerous. I think uh I mean legalism kills in a couple forms. Number one, the people that you're treating that way. Do you really think you know how hard it is for them to want to be back into the body of Christ after have it being misrepresented in that way? Uh then number two, I think legalism kills because many people that fall underneath that are the people that Jesus described as you'll say, Lord, Lord, but you never knew me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so I I truly believe that it it is so dangerous, uh, not just for people that are coming to your church or friends that you have, but also for your own spiritual walk.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because they're basing their salvation on following rules and checking boxes instead of where they're the posture of their heart. Yeah. They're putting that in their preferences over who Jesus is.

SPEAKER_02

But make no mistake, if you look at Matthew 7, because people will you, you know, do not judge, period, end of story. We're just not supposed to judge. What does Jesus say? He says, You fool, first remove the plank out of your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the plank out of your brother's eye. So he's not saying we should never judge, period. He's saying, hey, get that problem out of your life, then you will better help your brother and sister in Christ. So don't hear this and say, when we say legalism is a bad thing and legalism kills, that means that if we see a brother or sister who is sinning but they're not grieving their sin. And we know that they're Christian, we know that they're a follower of Christ, that they're going to church, they're doing all these things, but we see that there's something. Jesus isn't saying, oh no, you you just need to avoid that, be tolerant. No, he's saying, look in the mirror, get that problem out of your life, you know, have that reflection, and then you're going to be able to help your brother and sister in God.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because you're gonna be like, hey, this is what helped me get through.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yeah. So don't hear this, please, and think, oh, well, anti-legalism is just saying go out and do whatever you want and sin freely and let others sin freely and do nothing about it. That's not what we're saying.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's a I'm not better than you, but me and I've I've been right there where you are. Yeah. And I it's not good, and I want to help you. Yeah. That's the loving thing to do.

SPEAKER_03

Right. It it's it's using it. I mean, as Paul would say, he's like, hey, I only think I boast in is my weaknesses. Yeah. And it is now using what did trip you up or what you went through as part of your story to help reach more people. Um, I think I'm proud of you. You you went that you uh you had to go deeper and explain that. You didn't want the comments coming after you.

SPEAKER_02

No, I I had a age of the earth. I got it, I got into it. Did JW, he's not even over there. Oh, go look at the comments. I I got into it again. I gotta get off of the comment section.

SPEAKER_03

I was like um, I was just ready to say, hey, you're probably gonna have some legal.

SPEAKER_02

And I will tell you, like, and this is really where I get on my soapbox, but seeing Christians weaponize scripture. Yeah, and that's and and one of the ones that that, and I've now I've now been doing this close to six years. Um, one of the ones that I've seen misused and abused the most is Matthew chapter 18, is this opportunity of when your brother sins, you go to him privately. When, you know, then then a second time you you you get two or three, and then the third time, then you bring it to the church. And I have seen in my experience as a pastor, there are people that almost like in a celebratory way, they're like, oh, they get giddy at the idea of, okay, next step, next step, next step. Oh, now bring somebody down. Yeah, and you know, okay, step one, I went to them, it's been uh 15 minutes, there hasn't been change, okay. Now now we've got to bring it to the church. And this excitement of almost then we get to treat them like a tax collector, because that's what Jesus says. Once they're done, you treat the, you know, the after there's been no repentance. But the idea of Matthew 18 is you may repeat step one again and again, you may go to your brother time after time, and then you grievely go to step two. You don't get excited, but you you almost in a mourning way go to step two. And then in the most extreme cases, that's when you would take it in front of the church. But that's just an example where in the Southern Baptist Church, and I'm sure other churches can say this as well, other denominations, but that that passage of scripture is used in a way to weaponize against other believers. Where if there is someone who is genuinely struggling, our focus isn't first and foremost to help them, but our our focus is to condemn them. And that is where legalism, you say legalism kills, I think that is the snake bite of legalism, is when it becomes a a tool of condemnation versus a tool of healing.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and they use it as an opportunity of it operates out of fear and control. And that's when I and that's Christless religion. That that's now a crisis religion whenever they're operating out of fear and control, um, when it gets to that point.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And as an atheist, that was one of my biggest arguments against religion. Religion controls, and that's all that you know, pastors that's all they care about is just controlling. And the fact is, is that Christianity is so far from a controlling religion, it is the opposite of controlling, it is freedom.

SPEAKER_03

And that's why I think the problem is the gospel's the alternative to that. And so the problem with it is you're missing out on the gospel of Jesus and the mercy and freedom that he brings through the gospel.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. It does, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_03

It does. And so here's my question, Roger. What would you say to the people who have been hurt by legalism or has been part of a church or is currently part of a church that is legalism?

SPEAKER_02

I would give you the same advice that I have to give myself all the time is that when we focus our faith on man, and I don't care if this man is Billy Graham, I don't care if this faith if this man is Jordan or Luca Roger, when we start focusing so much on the principles and precepts of what man can do for us, we will always be let down. And so if your view of Christianity has ever been centered around an individual, a former pastor, a former deacon, a former teacher, and that person has poisoned or spoiled your view of Christ and grace, then I would encourage you and pray that you seek your eyes away from the fallenness of man, the fallenness of legalism, which promises everything and delivers nothing, and you you fix those eyes back on the cross, and to understand that when we do that and when we truly follow this idea of unconditional, unlimited grace, it goes back to the idea that I do good not so God will love me, but because he loves me so much, I get to go and do these things. And when you have that freedom in Christ, and I shared this a couple weeks ago, the first 10 years of my walk with Jesus, um, from 2017 to 2019, I was the most legalistic person that you would have ever met. I mean, I would I was the person going in when I first started preaching, I was going into churches and I was seeing people, because I was a cop, I was preaching, but I was also a cop. And I was seeing people and I knew what they were doing throughout the week. I knew the calls that I was getting to their house, and my nose was so high in the air and thinking, why in the world would you do what you're doing on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday and you're showing up to church on Sunday? You're a disgrace. Like I was having those thoughts as I was preaching from a pulpit, right? And I thought I was the most righteous person in the room. And it took a big kick in the butt from God to say, Roger, if you're going to do this for the rest of your life, you need to understand what grace truly is. And it was really not until 2019, I think the true power of grace was revealed to me. So for those of you that maybe you have not had that true power of grace revealed in your life, I would just encourage you to seek that. And once you find that, there is no legalistic preacher that can take that away from you, or legalistic whoever. It doesn't have to be preachers. Legalism exists everywhere.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think got you to that point of thinking that way?

SPEAKER_02

I think the more I honestly, this I'm gonna sound like an arrogant, uh pompous person.

SPEAKER_03

So another day.

SPEAKER_02

Another day in the life of Roger. Um, I think the more I studied theology, then the more I felt I knew more than everyone else. And um that's it really was. And so like when even when I do apologetics, I tell people like, Hey, be careful that this justn't d doesn't become people who profess to be wise but are willfully ignorant. That's what I was. I pr I was professing to be wise because I knew more theology than people that had been going to church for a long time. I was willfully ignorant in doing so. So that's what I would say.

SPEAKER_03

I think you you nailed it. And bottom line, it comes down to where is your faith? Is your faith in what you're doing or is your faith in the work of Jesus Christ? And I think you nailed it when you said, Hey, we get to do these things because of what Jesus did for me, because of my relationship with Him. Not so that I earn His love, but because He loves us.

SPEAKER_01

You know, we've had some people in the over the past years that have come to fresh start, which is what this material is built off of or this sermon series is built from, that have never known the grace loving God. They've come from a background or a church, grew up in a church that was very much a fire and brimstone type church. And I'll just be honest, when I hear that, I'm just sitting there thinking, because I've not I've grown up in a whole nother aspect of understanding who God is. Um when I would hear that, I'm just sitting there thinking, man. Because they they only knew a God that was angry. Uh and if you mess up one time, I tell you what, you're going straight to hell. And that's the way the preachers would preach constantly, Sunday after Sunday after Sunday. I I don't know if I could handle that. I talked to someone recently Well, how could you handle that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it will it it's exhausting, and it's why people would leave the church and then say, Yeah, I'm never coming back. But I talked to someone recently, we were talking about baptism, and she said, You know, I don't know if I've ever been in believers' baptism. She said, I was baptized. And I said, Why were you baptized? And she said, Well, the church I was scared straight. Well, it no, and like she's this sounds like it's out of footloose. Like, but she basically hurt, she went to a small Baptist church. She had sinned, and unfortunately, some of our sin is private, sometimes it's public, right? Her sin was more public than than other people's sin. Church found out about it, and they gave her an ultimatum. They say, You repent in front of the church and get baptized, or you leave the church entirely. So she was baptized as an ultimatum because she and and and she said so she's like, I don't think I've had actual believers' baptism. I'm like, I don't think you have either. And so and I she's one I'm actively talking to, and and she will get baptized soon, and I will share her story in detail. But like you hear that, these aren't just fictional stories like in a movie, these are actual testimonies of people. And and I told her, I said, Praise the Lord that you didn't give up. Praise the Lord that you are here and that now you can experience. Because I preached my insurance of salvation message a couple weeks ago. She said, That was like never heard that before. She said, Never. She said, I I I thought you were preaching a different gospel. And then I realized you were preaching it not a different gospel, you were preaching the gospel. And she said, and I just cried because I realized this is it. This is what I've wanted my entire life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But and that's how sad is that? Uh just and how twisted they got. They how they twisted all that uh against her.

SPEAKER_02

And of ministry and as ministers, we are going to have a larger account when we get to heaven. So I think of those ministers, they're gonna have some explaining to do, just as if we were to ever fall into that, which we're capable of doing, that we are gonna have to account for that more so than the average person who's just sitting in the pew. Like we have a responsibility to make sure that that doesn't happen. And so, yeah, I heard that and it broke my heart.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and or to just think God's always angry and he's just looking for any excuse to strike you down. Yeah, uh, that's not the God I know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, the all the the the the benchmark I always use is is Jesus walks into the to the sanctuary and he goes to the front of the sanctuary and he looks at you directly. What does his face say? If it is a face of shame, repentance, anger, then you have a different view of Jesus. But if your view of Jesus when he sees you is a face of love, of admiration, of affection, that is the Jesus who wakes up every day and says, The fact that I chose you and you freely chose me back, Jesus says, I love you so much just for that.

SPEAKER_03

And that's what he's talking about when he says, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. That moment that you just described of those who hunger and thirst for Jesus looking at him saying, I love you. Yeah. I'm so proud. Well done. Yeah. My good and faithful servant.

SPEAKER_02

Now, I see, I see the I see as you follow me, there's still some things that I know you're working out, and Jesus says, and I'm gonna be there the entire way. When you stumble, I'll be there to pick you up. But when you succeed, I'll be the first one there loving you along the way. And that is that is what a relationship with Christ is.

SPEAKER_01

That's a new perspective for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, seeing it that way. Brand new to the point where a a girl who's gone to church her whole life literally thought it was a different gospel because it was so unprecedented.

SPEAKER_01

But but even the whole idea that Jesus is walking alongside us through our struggles instead of seeing our struggles as an as a um, oh, I gotta start all over again because I can't seem to get this right. I've got to go get rebaptized, I've got to go ask for Jesus into my heart again, because I'm not clearly not getting this right. Instead of saying I've accepted Jesus in my life now, now I'm going to go through this process of change. And it's going to take a little bit to get some things out of my system. And all the while you're doing that, Jesus is walking along because you humbled yourself, you knew you couldn't do it on your own, and now you're relying on Jesus and the Holy Spirit to help you do that. And it's a process. Instead of saying, Oh, I gotta start back over again, I messed up again. Oh, I gotta start back over. Oh, I sinned again, I gotta start all over again, I gotta get rebaptized, or I've lost my salvation in some way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Sadly, so many people live that way. Well, and that's how their understanding of it is.

SPEAKER_02

And I think when we talk about assurance of salvation, those who doubt assurance of salvation, oftentimes the number one reason they doubt it is because of legalism. That that is the reason it goes back to the law that none of us can keep.

SPEAKER_03

So and those that try to weaponize that verse of blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, I would say just read the next beatitude. Because what is the next beatitude said? Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. And those that I say is one of the scariest verses because it's conditional. What Jesus is saying is like, hey, you want to receive mercy? Better show it. You better, you gotta be you gotta show mercy. And that's even when he says the Lord's prayer, like, Father, forgive us as we forgive others.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know what you're doing. You have to do that first. You know what you're praying?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like it's so like that's why it's such a gut check of like, oh man, the measure of which I show mercy, the measure of which I forgive others, that's the same thing that he's gonna pour out upon me. But yet, the way we get to the point where I can show you mercy, I can give you forgiveness, is understanding how much we had been forgiven from and how much we have been shown mercy. And so that's where like that one it's scary, but it's not whenever we truly understand what we have been forgiven and the mercy that we received, we can then freely give.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's kind of scary in some respects because it talks about you need to forgive so that you can be forgiven. You need to show mercy before you get mercy. It starts with us and how we respond to other people to then how he will respond to us. Yeah, there's a kind of a whoa, that's a little backwards. Then we received it and now we go give it. I I still agree that we received it and now we go give it, but yet there's also this, it's kind of a two-way.

SPEAKER_03

It very much is the parable of the shrewd manager, you know, where he was uh is that the parable? Is that what it's called? The one where the parable is the shrewd manager, yeah, where where he goes and he's given forgiven of a huge debt. Yeah. Then he goes to his servant and he does not offer it. And he does not offer the same for something. Or something called minuscule. Right.

SPEAKER_01

And so he was No, that's not the shrewd manager. Shrewd manager is where he gets busted um for he does something wrong, and now he finds he's gonna lose his job, so he starts making deals. Okay, so what you're the parable of the unforgiving servant. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03

That's the one I'm talking about. And so, yeah, he he's forgiven of a lot, but he won't forgive his servant of a little.

SPEAKER_02

And then the one that forgave him finds out about it and calls him back in and says, Hey, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03

You know, that's the imagery that you know I use, like, hey, we have we've been forgiven a lot. Okay, now I gotta take this what I've been forgiven, passing all over.

SPEAKER_02

And goes to, well, you know, we forgive conditionally. Well, did Jesus forgive you conditionally? Because if your for if your forgiveness has conditions, you're probably gonna go to hell because you're not gonna meet those, none of us can meet those conditions. So it yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh how would you like your forgiveness to be based on conditions?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it but that's conditional forgiveness is what we're taught. It's what we know. I forgive you. Now you need to read the fine print, you know. And so, um, but yeah, so in summary, um, I agree with the two words you said. Legalism kills. And um it doesn't kill you-still talking about that. It doesn't kill you like a widowmaker heart doesn't kill you in five minutes. It doesn't kill you, you don't drop dead from legalism. Legalism is a disease that sometimes can allow you to live 80 years, like it doesn't kill you right away, but it can be progressive to the point that for many people that have been in church for 70 years, they lay on their deathbed. And I've had we've had these conversations with people. Are you gonna go to heaven? Man, I hope so. You know, and it's like, man, you've been in more church services than I could count, you know, a million times over, and you still don't get it.

SPEAKER_01

But I think legalism, it's more not so much how it affects the person who's legalistic, but how it affects the people around them, how that gets spilled out on them because they're probably constantly coming down on them saying, Oh, that's not how you're supposed to do that. Oh, you need to do this better, or you you're not doing it right. I to me, the legalism is how it affects the other people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but what I've learned from a lot of legalistic people is they judge harshly outside. So they judge the world outside, but they are also their harshest critics to themselves. And so that's where it's the standard that they judge. Now, sometimes you have people that truly, truly believe they are God's gift to this earth, and they're just that self-righteous.

SPEAKER_01

That's been the more that I've seen it. They think they've got it all fairly.

SPEAKER_02

But I think I think when you really unpeel the onion, I think you're really it's kind of like bullets. They're just masking, but you learn and you learn growing up. Why do people bully? People bully because they themselves have been bullied. They're insecure, so now they're projecting. I think a lot of people that are the harshest critics of others are doing so because deep down they are the most insecure person that you will ever meet.

SPEAKER_01

They're hiding their own faults. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

So they're now projecting their own imperfections onto other people.

SPEAKER_01

And that's why I meant that although it it's going to hurt them in the long run, then they may just not see that they're doing that. It more affects the people around them. Because they're projecting their problems onto other people. And now that person's thinking, oh man, I'm a terrible person. Yeah. I'm never gonna get in that. But I think I think you're right throughout their life.

SPEAKER_02

But then you get to the end of it, and then they have to and then they look at their life in a little snow globe. You you have you have you know 48 hours to look at 80 years. What was your life? Yeah, I probably led too much on the merciless and not the merciful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Hopefully they can think that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. But I mean, again, going back to the Beatitudes, this the whole thing is it should change how we live and why we live. And we we should be different from the world in that. And whenever we're different from the world and we show mercy, when we whenever we're different from the world and we uh are pure in our heart and not have agendas or motive bat poor motives when we are peacemakers instead of have wanting to argue and prove our point, different things like that, it's gonna lead to the final beatitude, which is you're gonna be persecuted. And so if you want to know if you are following the law, if you're following God's word, if you're following his love and you're doing what you're supposed to do, have you busted your nose against society and the world? Uh, because you're gonna be persecuted for what you believe.

SPEAKER_02

The the measure Andy Stanley uses, I heard this in a sermon years ago, is if you see someone else sin, does it excite you or does it grieve you? If it excites you, you you need to get right with the Lord. In a sense of, oh, they just sinned, I got you. In the same way of the Pharisees. If you get giddy when you see someone else's sin, because it gives you an opportunity to then call that sin out, you completely have misunderstood why.

SPEAKER_03

Goes back to blessed are those who mourn.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And all sin should be grieved.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

All sin.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's not a competition. No.

unknown

No.

SPEAKER_03

We're all in the same boat. So, but I mean, that's good. It's been fun walking through this fresh start material. It was fun to dive into the Beatitudes. Roger, you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02

That'd be a good one to preach. So alrighty. Well, hey, thanks for tuning in. We've uh hopefully given you some. Is this the shortest one we've ever had? This is pretty short. Yeah, in a while. Pretty short, yeah. I like it. And uh it's been good. So hey, thanks for joining us all as always. Uh feel free to leave a comment, uh a positive one, that is complimentary and does not require me to get up at 11 o'clock at night to respond, um, or I can just heart it and I can go throughout my day. Don't judge, uh, lest ye be judged. So with that being said, Pastor Roger, Pastor Luke, Pastor Jordan, we'll be back Sunday, 9 a.m. ten thirty for our second to last week of our sermon series. And uh then we'll start Romans after that. So we're excited for Romans. But until then, keep making heaven crowded. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_03

See ya. All righty.