The Only Thing that Counts is LOVE | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 34

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(The Debate series will continue in July )

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we explore Paul's message to the church in Corinth and one of the most powerful truths in all of Scripture: the only thing that counts is love.

The Corinthian church was gifted, passionate, and active—but it was also divided, prideful, and distracted by secondary issues. Through his letters, Paul continually pointed them back to what mattered most: a life transformed by the love of Christ and expressed through love for others.

In a culture that often values being right over being loving, Paul's words remain as relevant as ever. Spiritual gifts, knowledge, achievements, and accomplishments all have their place—but without love, they are ultimately empty.

Whether you're navigating church life, relationships, or your walk with Christ, this conversation will challenge you to evaluate what truly matters and what it looks like to live out the love of Jesus every day.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded
📖 Topics: Corinthians, Apostle Paul, Love, Church Unity, Christian Living
 For More info go to TeamFBC.info

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Made Heaven Crowded Podcast. I am Pastor Jordan, joined with Pastor Roger, and fresh off of vacation, Pastor Luke, I have to start off the podcast with why in the world did you preach on Sunday when you were on vacation?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Yeah, because my I don't want to throw Roger on the bus. No. It was poor scheduling on our own.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

You have to rewind it back to the about a year ago and how it all laid out.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Well, did I preach two in a row? I think I preached two in a row. And did you just preach two in a row? No, you preached one. About to preach two in a row. Yeah. But so if I would have preached, it would have been three in a row. And nobody wants to hear me three weeks in a row. That is true. Other than my wife. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

I I know this lesson in my sleep. So always on standby. Yeah, man. Anyways, you might be up on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Can you preach on Sunday? Uh no, but I actually loved it. It was a is a fun one to talk about, fun one to do, the only thing that counts. And you know, reading through the fresh start material, just even more so, like if you have not been through that, people need to get plugged in and do that. So do do a guilty plug right there. But Luke, I've been a Christian.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Guilty plug that we don't plug it enough. Guilty?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, no, like no, to get people to sign up. But guys, make them feel bad for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

But guys, I've been a Christian a long time. I don't need to know that stuff. I've already learned that. You know what's funny is the folks that have been to church the longest, they're the ones that I see the light bulbs going off the most out of anybody. So it's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So the qualifications, whether you've been a Christian for five minutes or five centuries, which then we need to study you um scientifically, anybody can go through.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yeah, we and even to the whole been a Christian their whole life, been going to church somewhere else their whole life, when they come to FBC and they go through the fresh start, we've even had people like they literally will admit out loud, I don't know who this God is that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Because it's new covenant theology.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

It's so the grace and the love that we talk about is um they're like, I only know the fire and brimstone God. Um and that's all I grew up with. And I really have just they've they just felt like they were a bad Christian, they were not doing things right, they were convicted that they weren't doing enough. And then they sit through the fresh start classes and they're just like, I like this God. I've had good feedback. I feel like I'm a new Christian all time.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I've had good feedback with this sermon series. The one critique I've gotten is everyone like when I preached on the Holy Spirit was, man, we loved what you did. It could have used three more sermons. So, like the the one critique I've gotten is like each sermon needs a series by itself instead of doing one week of the Beatitudes. I mean, we could do a summer series on the Beatitude. In fact, a lot of churches do a huge series on the Beatitudes. So, like, that's been the one thing is like it it really scratches the surface, and then it requires you, you know, like when I did uh Fruits of the Spirit, I told people, guys, I'm not gonna be able to cover what each of these mean, but you need to go and you need to do the the digging yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, that's why it's a good plug of yeah, just go to Fresh Start. Yeah. We agree. We don't have enough time. Yeah, go to Fresh Start. And also they're gonna get more out of that than even if we did a three-week sermon series. More um on each lesson.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Because they're the ones talking it out.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Yeah, and you'll also get a certificate of completion and a free chronological Bible. Which uh we said last week. It's not cheap. Right there.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

So where do where can they get signed up? Number one. And number two, when's the next one?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Teamfc.info or go to the next steps desk, come see me, see Carrie.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Uh any one of us can get you some.info or net. Oh no. Either one will take you there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think it's now TeamFBC.net is now our website. Teamfbc.info, I think, is the QR.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Or kind of like the app kind of thing. Uh yeah. Either one will take it in. Either one. Okay. Gotcha. Good. Make it as easy as possible for people to do that. Because then we would have had to change people's thought process of no, that's not it. It's this.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Don't go to PC11 and.net, because like we don't have that.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Well, I think you can still sign up there. That's our website. And it's all coming up.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

No, I think teamfpc.net is now the new website. I don't know. Shane's gonna kick it. It's way easier.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yeah, it's way easier now. Don't listen to these. Or is going to post.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

David will comment in the comment section. Don't listen to what they're saying, go to this link and you can get signed up. So um that being said, we concluded it. So we're starting Romans this Sunday. Um, and this, I think it was did you say that this was like your favorite lesson of all the lessons?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah, the the it's lesson number nine. There's ten total lessons. It's lesson number nine. And if we had a second, I would like to then also explain lesson ten. Um because it's also the now what do we do with all this? Um this is because uh I did I don't know, my eyes were open to Galatians 5.6b, the second part of Galatians 5.6, when Paul writing to the Church of Galatia says that you know he's building up to all this, and he's the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. What gets you in that is when you truly it registers the only thing that counts. When you think about everything that is said in the Bible, all the different things that you read through. There's just how many, how many thousand, how many pages are in your Bible there, Roger? I see 1,600 and something.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

You're in Revelation, we're to 18, 1900 pages, basically 2,000 pages.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

250, so 1850 pages of a Bible. This half verse, the only thing that counts, you finally get the answer. Yeah, yeah. Of everything you're trying to understand and understand, what am I supposed to do with my life now that I'm a I'm gonna profess to be a believer and a follower of Jesus? What am I what am I what am I supposed to be doing? And in a half of a verse out of uh 1,850 pages of verses, you get the answer of the only thing that counts is faith, how you love Jesus and how you believe in Jesus, and how you express that belief and how you love other people. Yeah, that's it. That's the only thing that counts. And so what does that mean? What's the only thing that's the only thing that God looks at? Yeah, that's the only thing God is watching and saying, that's what you're doing right, that's what you're doing right. How are you loving other people is a reflection of how you love me. When we try to do all these things, I need to go to church, I need to read, I gotta do these things, I gotta do this, and out of this. But is your heart posture? I'm gonna love people because of what Christ did for me. That's all that counts. The only thing that counts. And once that hit me, it was just like, well, that's it right there. I remember the buildup to that uh several years ago. We had a lot of people discouraged with our discipleship system and process, felt that we weren't making disciples, people, you know, and so I finally just I kind of had enough of it, and I had kind of like this discipleship summit, and I called in a lot of these people, and I and I didn't disagree with them, don't get me wrong. Um, and so I took them through this whole process. But the thing I wanted to find out is what is your definition of a disciple of Jesus? And man, you got we got 30 different answers from several different people. They all had a different understanding. What is a disciple of Jesus? What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus? What does it what does it mean to be in discipleship of as a Christian? And so then I walk him through all this and I landed it with this verse, and the room was silent. And he was pastor at the time. He was just like, dude, that was genius. And I'm like, I am not a genius, but that verse hit me hard enough that it's like it doesn't matter what we think, it's what God thinks, and this is what God thinks. And the only thing that counts is how you love him and how you love other people. Yeah, and that's the foundation or the root to everything that we should be doing as Christians. And so it's just like, why aren't we telling people that? Yeah, why don't we ever talk about that? We never talk about that. We always talk about every thousand other things or 1,850 pages worth of other things, and it gets, I mean, mic dropped in a half of a verse.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

That's right. And that's it. The only thing that counts, it connects back to Jesus' teaching. Absolutely, it does. Yeah, love the Lord your God, love others. And I love how Joby Martin puts it is how do you define that love? It's your joy of the Lord expressed to other people at the expense of yourself. Yeah, that's what it all is summed up to. Your joy of the Lord expressed to other people at the expense of yourself. Because you're not putting yourself first in it. That's right. Yeah. And I think that was to me as I studied, we know it, but that's the part that really hit me between the eyes of understanding what that love is. The only thing that counts is love at the end of your life, and what does that look like? It's getting back to loving people for who they are, not what they can do for you. And for our society, so much of love depends on what that person provides for you or what they can do for you, what you get in return. And what you get in return, instead of loving them for who they are. Yeah. And essentially because that's what Christ did for us. Yeah. And so that's no strings attached. Yeah, taking that little verse of the only thing that counts is faith expressed through love. Man, that's what then we have to define what that love is. That's what I went into on Sunday. Explain 1 Corinthians uh chapter 13.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah, and also, and that kind of then would lead to then chat the tenth lesson. We then take that and we use James, uh, you know, faith in action. Yeah. Um, what does that look like? So I think it's chapter three where he talks about, hey, if you see somebody in need, don't just go up to him and say, hey, brother, I'm I'm praying for you. And if you have the means and do nothing for them, it's pointless. And that's why he comes up with the whole um faith without works is dead. That you, yeah, you claim to have faith, but you're not doing anything to help somebody when you know you can help them. What's your problem?

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Which I love you know in our culture and society, and a lot of non-believers, you'll see this on Facebook and stuff, but they'll make the argument, well, you know, the reason I don't like Christianity is because all they do is thoughts and prayers, and they don't follow up with thoughts and prayers, and it's like, no, actually, James agrees with you. James says that you should not be thoughts and prayers. Yes, you should think of people, yes, you should pray for them, but pray for them and give them a sandwich. Pray for them and let them in. Like that there, it's not just thoughts and prayers. And so when that straw man is created of, I don't like Christians that only post thoughts and prayers and then they don't do anything about it. My response is, yeah, I don't like that either. Yeah. I mean, we're on the same page.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

James affirms that. And when and again, James is just repeating what Jesus said. Matthew 25, 35 is where it starts. Hey, you, I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink. I was hungry, you fed me. I was in jail, you came to visit me. I was, you know, all these things that I was in distress, and you can't do it. And what does Jesus do with them?

SPEAKER_02 9:54

He distinguishes the sheep and the he literally says, I mean, he he connects it to end times theology of saying those who will be on the side of Christ are the ones that will do these things, not doing them to become a sheep, but because you are a sheep, you will do those things. It goes back to the whole idea of you know our salvation. But literally, it would that that's how essential it was to Christ in Matthew 25. And so going back to um, how do I force myself to love when I become a Christian? It's such a bad way of asking the question.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Because there needs to be something right here that it's I don't have to feel like that.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

And going back to the fruit of the spirit that I talked about, when we force ourselves to do good works, there is works in that, but there is no fruit in that because it is man, it is not spirit-led.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Yeah, there's something wrong if I don't just like if I have to force myself to want to be kind or to love.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Well, you always use marriage as a as an analogy. I think it's good to say, how do I force myself to love my spouse? If someone comes into marriage counseling and says, Pastor, I need help forcing love in order to stay in my marriage, you you're you're already in a marriage that is that is deeply, deeply in trouble. And so the same thing is true when it comes to how we outwardly express it it should just be almost unconscious in how we love people.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yeah, yeah. And that's what I thought, man, just we could not have lined it up. Only God could have done it this way of the only thing that counts for to land on Memorial Weekend where we remember the people who have ultimate sacrifice of love. Paid the ultimate sacrifice. And you know, as our nation, we have taken it as an opportunity not just to remember those who have lost their lives serving this country, but to visit the loved ones that we have lost along the way. And you know, unfortunately, a part of our job is doing funerals. And literally, whenever we do funerals and you sit down with the family and you say, Hey, how do you want them to be remembered? What is the number one thing that normally is? I loved how you connected that.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

That was really cool. Um because yeah, we you we think that we want to be known for, you know, we played a really good round of golf, yeah. We did something that really at the end of the day is meaningless. But no, it is. I want you to tell people how wonderful they were as a person and how much they loved us.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

See what yeah, and and that's where I think funerals are the best place, by the way, to preach the gospel is at a funeral. It is the best place to preach the gospel. But I don't know if you do this, but when I do a funeral, I always say, give me the three words that that describe who they were. Um, and that will tell you so much of okay, and then you and then you expand on okay, what are those three things?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

And I and I do that every time I sit down with them, hey, what are three words? And what that does, it's healthy, it gets them to sharing stories, different things like that. But the most common word that I get out of those three is love and how who they loved, what they loved, how they love their kids, family, different things like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, and and the other words, I mean, are all go back to love. Oh, he was selfless. Yeah. Oh, he put everyone before himself. All of it goes back to this idea of love.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And then when they're a believer, it's just like, well, then I can guarantee you I know where they are. Right. It is a definite we can rest and be joyful and celebrate the life of the person. Still difficult, but it helps, it makes it a lot easier to do a funeral of somebody that's a believer, and people only talk about them as hell loving them.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

I will tell people, and I'll let you say this: the easiest thing for a pastor to do is to preach the funeral of people. Like, how did you preach your dad's funeral? The easiest thing for a pastor to do is preach the funeral of a believer. The hardest thing a pastor can do is preach the funeral of an unbeliever. We've done both. Preaching the funeral of an unbeliever is is absolutely one of the hardest things you can't preach someone into heaven.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Isn't that like provide motivation for you though to continue to share the gospel? Because anytime I have to do a funeral of somebody where I'm not sure if they're in heaven or not, I leave it going, I never want to feel this way again. Exactly. Anybody that God puts in my life, I want to make sure that I don't have to feel that burden. I don't feel this way again.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Well, because if that family member wasn't, then there's most likely another family member that is present. Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Is not. And every Christian should have to carry that burden. I mean, that is a burden that we need to carry of I want to do as little unbelieving funerals as humanly possible.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Well, that's what I kind of ended the message almost in a morbid way of saying, okay, now I'm not asking your family, I'm asking you, how do you want to be remembered in your life?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's getting us to start thinking, you know what, the only thing that counts as my life in my life is my faith expressed through love. Yeah. And getting back to that point. And so, how does that love look like? You mentioned it, talking about marriage and everything. It is a discipline, though. You like I can I can love somebody, but it's a discipline in how I reflect and show that love. And that's why Paul, whenever he's writing to them in the church of Corinth, and he gets to this point, he realizes he's talking to them about the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit has provided them and how they're living that out. And what he realizes is they're missing the main thing. They're so focused on the gift, they're not focused on what really matters in it all. And he pauses and tells them, Hey, none of these gifts matter. You guys are asking all these questions about gifts and all these other things. Guess what? None of it matters unless you love one another.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Yeah, because they they were so big on, well, I can prophesy and I have knowledge and I was trained under so-and-so. And he's like, That doesn't matter. Yeah, a rip.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

So yeah, he the and he gets to them, he's missing point. And then I think Paul, as he's writing, then gets to them and say, I just told them to love, but they have no idea what that even looks like. And so he gives us this framework, the best definition of love, and always make the joke, and as you do too, whenever we get to 1 Corinthians 13. And most pastors that, hey, if you heard this at a wedding, he's not talking about marriage here. You know, he he this is what he's actually talking about. So in the middle of spiritual gifts, we get this description on love, and I like breaking down 1 Corinthians 13 into three categories. And so you have your first category, you know, in one through three, and and what he's doing there, he lays out the necessity of love. And so he talks about the different gifts, but and how you can have faith that can move mountains and and all these different things, but if you uh do not have love, you have you have nothing. So he talks about the necessity of love. Yeah, it literally means nothing. Then he goes in and he defines love four through seven, and that's where we get the description of love is patient, love is kind. And you know, any commentary that you read is gonna say, Well, in first John, he says God is love, so you can actually put God is patient, God is kind. He's actually describing God. Well, hey, if you have the Holy Spirit live inside of you, you can actually put your name in there. So which one of these do you struggle with? Um, because you possess the ability to do all these things with the Holy Spirit living inside of you.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Well, you could even rewind that to the very first part and say, if you don't have love and you do these things, you're just a clinging, yeah, clinging. It's if you don't have Christ. That's right. And you do these things, it doesn't matter. You can do all these great things, but if it's not rooted in Christ, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

How much do you use? Because you and I do a lot of a lot of pre-marriage counseling. How often do you use 1 Corinthians 13 in every marriage counseling? So, like one exercise I do, and I this is something I just came up with, is I will read that to my couple, and then I will I will read it a few times because I say I want you to pick the one that describes your spouse the best, but I also want you to pick the one that you struggle with the most. And you know the number one I hear is keeps no record of wrongs. That's the one consistently when we when you and your spouse argue, okay, well, three weeks ago, what about the double standard? What are you doing? You're keeping a record of wrongs. And so if you want to convict yourself or convict a couple, open up 1 Corinthians 13 and find this standard of love that has been set by our Heavenly Father, it is such a difficult standard for certain people, right? Because you you said it, yes, we have to be disciplined in love. And some people, we have to be way more disciplined to love them than say other people. And so, yeah, it's simple, but simple doesn't mean easy.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, and that's I I do something similar. I I read it, and then I have them actually read it. And so I'll have the husband read it, but with his wife's name instead of love. And what I want and what I tell her to do during that is hey, which one of those tastes weird to your earbuds, like that you do not like, and then husband, which one does she do really good at? And then I reverse it. Then I have her read his name, and then have him which one does he feel like he's not good at, and her identify which one he's really good at. Yeah. And what what I'm forcing them to do is number one, give each other a compliment. That's exactly right. And then number two, them identify, hey, I know what's most unlikely ever heard that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

And and uh number two, identify, okay, this is what I struggle in, and then tell them, hey, that's not an excuse to not be good at it. Now you just know which one you have to be more disciplined in. Yeah. And then whenever we get to this part where it says love does not delight in evil but rejoices with truth, we spend so many time as married couples and just in our relationships as in general, so not even if you're not married, is we once we hit in our mind that somebody is impatient, then every time that they're impatient, it is we that's all we see. And we lose sight at the times when they are patient. That's the clinging symbol. Yes. Right. And so what I tell the couples to do, the reason I have them read their couple's name in it, is because they're speaking truth over their spouse, those words in that moment. Hey, he may have had a moment where he was impatient, but no, you are a patient person. She may have had a moment where she was keeping record of wrongs, but no, I married to somebody. She actually rejoices in truth. And so, like, what it I think there's power whenever we speak those things over because those are what we start to see in them instead of just the times that they're not living up and doing it. So there's a good just little marriage, yeah, marriage practical advice. But let it get it. This is great for just self-introspection.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Because it's is Paul writing about marriage.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

No, does agape, I mean the Greek word we look at all the time, agape is a love that exceeds and transcends the love of the world. And so I'll have many married couples that come to me, and their definition of love is so watered down and generic and counterfeit. And I'm not talking people that come off from the streets, I'm talking people that have sat in church. Their view of love is, well, I need to buy flowers on this day, I need to do this. And it goes back to for so many people, our relationship with our spouses is almost like our relationship with God, and that it's it becomes what I need to do in order to stay in those good graces. And it's like, that's not what agape is. Agape is this unconditional overflow love that transcends the love that this world provides.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

So yeah, that when was the last time you told your spouse or your friends or somebody in your life that you love them not because of what they do for you? When was the last time you just said you love them because of a specific character quality that they have, of because of who they are, not because of what they provided or what they do for you.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

And you can replace spouse with God, and it's the same thing. When's the last time on the worst day you say, God, things aren't going my way right now, but man, I love you. Yeah, that's that's all.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

And here's a good test. That last one, love always perseveres. And I said this second service, and I I honestly I struggled with saying this because we know through marriage counselings how many people and the things that people have been through. Uh, but I I told a story. Whenever Emily and I were engaged, we were riding in the van, her phone, my phone was connected to the speaker, and she called me in the middle, and I'm I've got a bunch of senior boys with me. And she calls me. Of course, Kelson, he was with a DJ, he had my phone, he answers uh Kelson Keller. And uh then, next thing you know, for an hour, I have these senior boys talking to my fiance. An hour? Yeah, yikes asking her tons of questions. I would have hung up the phone. Well, Kelson He didn't have his phone, he came up with it. I didn't have it. I would have pulled over. Pulled over. Kelson asked Emily, like, okay, what would uh Luke have to do for you to make him not love you anymore? You know, trying to poke fun, different things like that. And I will honestly I'll never forget Emily's response to that. And she probably doesn't even remember this. But her response was You might ask if she wants to take it back. Now that we're married, she said nothing.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

And he's like, Oh, but she didn't say nothing. She said there's nothing that's she had the list like her fire. The list was so long she had nothing. She said the word nothing.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, she said the word nothing. Kelson's like, there has to be something like if you cheated on you, blah, blah, blah. And her response was, would I be hurt? Yes. Absolutely. Would I be crushed if he did something to our kids? If if yeah, he cheated, whatever, would I be destroyed and heartbroken? Yes. But I would never stop loving him. And I mean, I'm like, man, that hit me hard. But that's what it's talking about is her love for me, what she just told me in that moment, was not based upon what I do for her or how I treat her, but because she loves me for who I am. And so, like, yeah, your marriage, everything going back to that, go back to the foundations. Of why do you love one another? Do you love them for who they are or for what they do and whether now does that give them a license and excuse to do whatever they want to and different things? No, because again, that's not love. If they're doing those things just because you're gonna love them no matter what, it's the same reason like God loves us no matter what.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Well, and one thing you've like one thing I've learned in counseling couples and couples that end in divorce, they don't love each other any less. That's what makes it so hard. If they loved each other less, divorce would and I know it seems like divorce is is easy in this country, but like divorce is It doesn't seem like it is it yes, but you talk to a lot of people, especially Christians, that they say the fact that I that going through a divorce in which there is infidelity or abuse or it doesn't matter. They say the the problem is that I didn't stop loving him. I didn't stop loving her. That's what makes it so hard. And so this idea of, well, if they cheat, I'll stop loving them. If they if they hit me, I'll stop loving them. If they abandon, I'll stop. No, that's that's not necessarily the case. That's what makes it so devastating when it happens. The good news with God is that he doesn't love us anymore or less, and there isn't that abandonment. There isn't a divorce of God other than our side. We we we can give God a certificate of divorce and say, hey, I'm taking a break. God will never do that to us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

But I'm glad you brought up the agape love as we present in the class. We put it as it's an action. Love is an action. Yeah. And although you even mentioned like getting my wife flowers, that's not the same thing. There are actions we can take that, you know, like I want to put a load of laundry into the washer because I know it would make Heather happy. You know, and so I do these little things just because I want to do them to make her happy or to that she'd be like, oh, thank you so much to help me out. I I want to do those things.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

To overflow the heart.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah. To be clear, um, that's not the action we're talking about. The action is literally those um what love is defined, those are actions. Yeah, even though they may not seem like it, but those are truly actions. Yeah. But the other thing I wanted to mention is for so long, I think we're very confused as to what the American or just our civilization that thinks of love. We always think of it so much, I think, as an emotion. Uh I am I am in love. It's a feeling. But the the way the Bible describes it, no, it's something you do. See, I say it's similar.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

You said that love is an action. When I do funerals, I always say love is not a feeling in your heart, contrary to what the radio stations will all the songs that they play, we were the the the Colleen Hoover books, and like we are in like, oh, it's this feeling. But I say love is a choice every day. You choose every day love or not to love. And so it is a choice that we have to make. And unfortunately, the problem is in the beginning when we talk about marriage, and that our our goal was not to talk about marriage, but here we are. But for so many people, they choose agape until they don't. And then they stop it that love ceases becoming a choice because when it's just an emotion, emotions go away. Honeymoon phases exist. There's gonna be a day when you look at your spouse and you don't feel the exact same way you felt on your wedding day. That's normal, that's natural. Same thing with salvation. The day after I accepted Christ, I wanted to go around and knock on doors and tell everyone about Jesus. There's days now as a Christian, 16 years in, I don't have that same oomph that I once did. But how do we keep that love alive? How do we keep it, you know, and and the answer is we have to choose that even on days where the easiest thing in the world is not to choose love, not to choose agape.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

So yeah, and that's what like what we see here, and my encouragement is we have to change the lens in which we read 1 Corinthians 13. Many people read that with binoculars, reading it and looking at it as like, oh, my spouse doesn't treat me like this, like this, or my friends don't treat me like this, like this. No, what it's actually acting as a mirror are you treating people like this in these ways, because that is what love is. Yeah. So yeah, he gives us that definition of love. And then in the last part of it, eight through thirteen, he talks about why is love the only thing that counts? It's the only one that is permanent, it's the only one that lasts, it's the only one that lasts for etern eternity. And so yeah, he's saying all these things.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

You put that together is really good. Yeah. But when we're in heaven, and I don't want to steal anyway. No, don't keep going, but no, I'm just I want to affirm and how you put that together or how you connected it was really cool. That yeah, we it's not gonna matter what you know. It's not gonna matter if you can profit. It's only gonna matter in heaven is how we love. And that's the only thing that's gonna be going on in heaven is how we love. And so and we'll experience the full love of God too.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, because I mean verse 8 says, Love never fails, but where there are prophecies, they will seize, where there are tongues, they will be stilled, where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the completeness comes, what is in part disappears. And so essentially what he is talking about there in verses eight and nine and ten is saying, Hey, yes, we prophesy, yes, we have these gifts of the Holy Spirit, because we only know in part. And for ev in order for us to live in this relationship with Christ, we need these things. But one day when we get to heaven, everything's gonna be complete. You're not gonna need to have a tongue, a spiritual language where you talk to God, you're not gonna need to have the gift of prophecy. Like I use the example of what are we gonna do? Just what are we gonna teach in heaven, right? We'll know it all, right? And or everything we need to know. Why how are we gonna preach the Bible in in heaven? Right? Paul Paul's gonna be there, the church is gonna be there, and so like, yeah, we don't have to. And hey, Jesus is sitting right there, go talk to him. And you know, and same thing with with knowledge, but the one thing that's gonna remain above all of that is love, and so yeah, all that will fall away when completeness comes, but love is gonna remain. That's why he gets into perfectly, and that's why he gets into hey, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love. Our faith has been made complete. We're living in the hope that we desired, but love is gonna continue to remain as we are in heaven. Um, the part that I didn't dive into deeper that I really wish I would have, I mentioned it first service, not second service, was that part he gets to where he says, When I was a child, I acted like a child. But when I became an adult, um, when I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now, we only see a reflection in a mirror, then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. That when I was a child, I reasoned like a child. How does child children reason? The most impatient people. Like I got a two-year-old right now. Mine. Yeah, mine, more, get more. More. Hey, I'm heading to get it. More. Like they want it right now, right? They're and so when you're a child, you act like a child in these days. But when you become a man, when you become an adult, that's like we got to put these things on. And so it's a convicting thing, is like, hey, when you're impatient, when you're not being kind, whenever you're keeping a record of wrongs, whenever you're easily angered, all those different things, guess what? You're acting like a child. And what Paul's telling them to do is hey, be an adult, yeah, be a man, be a woman of God, step up and start loving that way as God has called us to love.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

No, that's really good. And you know, I don't think we're talked to like that enough. No. Quit acting like a child, yeah. And grow up, act like an adult, and start acting like this.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

I can imagine the eyes of the the church of Corinth as they're reading, like hearing that for the first time. Oh my gosh, yeah, we we are acting like children. Yeah. Um, because the only thing that counts is that.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

And there's a lot of context to all the things that were going on in Corinth and even in the church that even adds to this. Because even I think Paul had to give them a better understanding of what love meant. And I think it connects to our society today of there was a very perverted understanding of love in the in the culture of Corinth based on their um how they worshipped other gods. Um, and all right off the top of my head, I'm totally forgetting the who's the goddess of love. Artemis. Artemis, no. Uh Aphrodite. Aphrodite, okay. Yeah, I think it was the goddess of Aphrodite, was the goddess of Corinth. And she had a temple with temple prostitutes, and it was not an uncommon thing to go visit the temple and the prostitute, and that was okay. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

And Paul's like, No, Ephesus, Ephesus was a different goddess. Ephesus was that was Artemis.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Uh, but then also within the church, there was a a man who was having a relationship with his stepmom.

unknown 30:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

So there was all kinds of like, no, that's not right. You can't do that. That's not how it's supposed to be. And he had to correct so much of that. But think about how that connects to our society today. Yeah, yeah. It is very much that way. I mean, unfortunately, with the access to what's on the internet, uh, our children are getting a very wrong understanding of what intimacy and love is.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

You know, for us in our church, it's easy. And when I say church, I mean capital C church, it's easy to look at the world and talk about, well, they're perverted in this way, this way, and this way. Paul is not writing this letter to be shared amongst unbelievers. He's writing this letter so that the belief he said, I'm speaking to you in this culture that he is he is holding believers accountable. And so this is a letter to anyone that professes Christ. Um, that we're not just talking about the world's version of love that doesn't exist. Paul is seeing that people are taking that cheap love and they're trying to mix it in with this agape love. And he says, you cannot mix both. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

And he's trying to help them understand, yes, I know this is how you what you've grown up understanding.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

We've got to get rid of that.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

And let me show you the truth of it, of what true love means.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Because unbelievers only have one standard of love, and it's the wrong love, but it's all they have. You have a new standard, you are the one that will be held accountable.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah, and it connects back to the sermon of taking off that old self. Taking off that old self of understanding. That misunderstanding of what does this mean, because this is what my culture and society have taught me. No, that's not necessarily the truth. So, or most likely isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

We've got 20 minutes, and so I thought uh we had promised that we would have three quote unquote debate. Uh we talked to Age of the Earth, that was fun, had a lot of feedback on that. That people thought that was very fascinating. Um, but today, because you preached on 1 Corinthians 13, which is usually where people go to um to talk about uh the the the gift of tongues, which is one component of the cessationism, which I we probably need to define what those mean first. But this is the second thing that we said we quote unquote disagree with. And I actually don't think we disagree on that much, but I think it would be fun to go through and look at some of those patches.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Well, well, before you do that, though, one define what you just said cessation. Cessation, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

So cessationism, the word that we get. So there's two words if you get confused by those words, the isms. There's cease and there's continue. Yeah, cessation. Cessation being cease. Yeah. Continuationism meaning continue, which means that apostolic supernatural gifts, the gift of healing, the gift of tongues, that that the supernatural gifts that the cessationist would argue were only for that era, only before the closing of Scripture, the continuationist would argue that those have continued into the 21st century and are just as alive and relevant today as they were during Acts chapter 2. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So then I'd like to add a third. Tongues. What does what is the definition of tongues?

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Yeah, Luke gave a really good this was Mother's Day two years ago. Luke probably, I don't compliment him a lot, probably did the best I've heard a pastor actually break down. We're not talking, and even Wesley Huff talked about this last week, and we often only use one definition of tongues, but there's actually multiple New Testament tongues.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Now I think and you know, I think it's in a good spirit that we're talking about this in this context because going back at the end of the day, none of this matters because love is the most important thing. Yes, you know, that's I think that's a good spirit of having this debate, is it doesn't matter because love isn't wins the day. Even though that I might be right and you might be wrong, love is the most important. But I think what you're bringing up and about talking about tongues is the same about love. Yeah, right? We use the term love for multiple different things. Like I love my wife, I love my kids, I love Reese's peanut butter cups, I love Jesus. Love coffee. Love coffee. How does one word encapsulate all of that? Right? And that's why encapsulate. Encapsulate. Encapsulate. Yeah. Well, anyway, so that's why in the Greek, there's actually what four different words for love when you look at the Greek. Yeah, agape is just one. Right, you know, and same thing whenever we hear the term tongues. Whenever we hear the term tongues, there is different forms of tongues in the New Testament um that we use just one English word for. And so the quick summary that I'll give is the different form of tongues that you see inside the the New Testament uh is really three. Number one, you have the like literal tongue, like the body part of your tongue. And this is referenced, you know, when Paul is talking about the gifts, there's different gifts, or when James talks about taming the tongue, he's talking about uh the gift. Yeah, when Paul's talking about how there's different body parts is what I meant to say. Yeah, and so the number one is like your tongue has power, your literal tongue that you usually taste with, which is relevant and pertinent, but not for this discussion. The second one, and this is where I would distinguish, is there's a difference between the Acts two tongues and then the tongues that we read about in 1 Corinthians. Okay, so the second form of tongues that we see is what takes place in Acts two, and that form of tongues is actually talking about language, and so this is where you different language, like Spanish. Correct. So, you know, it'd be Acts 2, the Holy Spirit falls, and it says that they began to speak in tongues, and then it says everybody heard in their own language.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

And the Greek word is dialecto, which is where we get dialect, that it was actually a dialect that was used with the sole purpose not to uplift or edify oneself. The goal of it was missions. It was there's someone in here who cannot understand the gospel because they didn't have this. The B I B L E, you know, was not readily available to them. And so the idea is that they were speaking revelation in a time where that was the only way potentially to share the gospel was through the the tongue.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

It'd be like it'd be like me in in that time in Jerusalem. You had Jews from all over the place that were spoke different languages all meeting in Jerusalem at this point for the at the day of Pentecost. It'd be like me speaking in English and somebody hearing in Spanish, hearing in French, their own the entire word, the entire room can hear it in a supernatural sense.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

It was a distinct language, it was not gibberish, it was done again a dialecto. It was a dialect for one person to reach another.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

The imagery that I see is like the United Nations when they meet and the persons up there speaking these, they speak in their language, but they all have headphones on that they're hearing it in their own. Because there's an interpreter. Right. And so that's the same thing that's going on. Peter's up there speaking, and everybody's hearing it and understanding their own language. We see this happen on the mission field all the time. Like you're up there sharing the gospel, and somehow they get what you were just trying to say. Yeah. And so we see that take place. That's the second form. The third one, and that's where we're going to talk about today, is what we would talk about the spiritual gift of tongues. And that's I think where the the question becomes into play. And that's the one we see.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Because the two and three, they're not identical, but you you said in Acts 2 it talks about interpreter, 1 Corinthians 14, 28. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. So Paul addresses an interpreter. And from the 10th century, Acts 2 does not have an interpreter.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Acts 2, there's not an interpreter present. Acts 2, there it isn't the Holy Spirit, the interpreter, the Holy Spirit is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

So it's it's a different, but this is speaking. What I say in the modern church, when we talk about I will say hyper-charismatic churches, although there are Baptist churches I don't know of them that would speak in tongues as well. But the the question I always say is, was there an interpreter present? Well, I I won't say a lot of people, but I've talked to several people who believe in the gift of tongues who actually are not familiar with the interpreter clause that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 14.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

And this is what I'll say on on the the gift of tongues, is it can actually be broken down into two. That there's a difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. Praying in tongues, yeah. And so underneath the gift of tongues, there's a speaking in tongues, which we would believe would be done corporately, and then there's a gift of praying in tongues that can be done on an individual basis.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

So can I can I make, and again, we only have a few minutes, can I make an openingslash closing statement? Because that's really what we have time for, and then I will give, and then I want you to respond and I want you to make an argument. So what is my argument for cessationism? First, I want to clarify a misconception that I even heard when I said this in my class. I had a gentleman come up to me that said, Well, Roger, you're a pastor and you don't believe God performs miracles today. I do believe God performs miracles today. I've seen God perform miracles today. I preached on Bethany Edson last year and I literally let in with the point you cannot be a Christian and not believe in miracles. I just taught a class on Wednesday night that highlighted all of these different miracles. I had 30 people send me a message on Facebook because I asked, tell me your miracle stories. And now what I want to do is I want to put together almost a devotional of the miracles of FBC, because that's how many stories and testimonies I got of miracles. I believe in miracles. I believe God does not need a middleman to perform a miracle. So I believe God will perform a miracle directly to that person. I don't believe today that God is going to use Joe or Bob or Steve to perform that miracle.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

So, i.e. the Peter and John walking in and saying, this guy asking for money, and he's thinking he says, I can't give you money, but this is what I can give you. Yes. And he says, get up and walk. Yes. And the man gets up and walks. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

And that was absolutely pertinent in the apostolic age. And so when I say, because I hear people all the time say, well, I know this person has the modern supernatural gift of healing. We need to go to him. We need to go to this pastor. No, you need to go to God, because God will perform that miracle directly. So that's what I believe, really quick on miracles. Now, one thing that continuationists will say is, well, Roger, it never uses the term apostolic gifts. Like that is something that they would argue, that it actually doesn't distinguish those two things. Um, but what I would contend, what I would argue, um is that it does speak of apostolic gifts. It doesn't use the words, but it says that as apostles, you will have miracle signs and wonders. And so then the question is, well, why did the apostolic gift exist? Why did they need it? And a misconception is that Jesus healed people to heal people, that Peter and James, that they healed people to heal people. Healing in the New Testament was done always with some prophecy or covenant or revelation attached to it. When Jesus healed someone, he wasn't just doing it to be a good savior. He was doing it because there was a purpose, there was a message behind it. It wasn't merely to heal, it was done with some form of revelation. And in fact, in the New Testament, we see most of the miracles happen early on in your New Testament. The more we get into the New Testament, we start seeing a decline, I would argue, in some of those miracles. We could push back on that, but let me and so that's what I would see in the New Testament. So then the question is, okay, why have these things ceased? And I think the purpose of miracles going back to the gift of tongues is that they did not have a Bible to present. Even the Ethiopian eunuch, he had a scroll of Isaiah, but he was he was rich to have the scroll of Isaiah. So I could not give someone the revelation of scripture for them to fully comprehend that, that it was done in a way to preach the gospel. In today's world, the canon has been closed. We have the 66 books of the Bible, and so when someone says, Well, I need revelation, I need supernatural revelation, the answer should always be, Well, sola scriptura, the final authority is the word of God, which is an Aaron infallible inspired, and so this is your revelation, and so that is why those have passed away or ceased. So that would be my very, very brief v- uh uh uh understanding of why I conclude that there are certain gifts, not all gifts, right? I I still believe that that spiritual gifts exist, but that there were certain gifts that were only used with the purpose and that those were finite gifts. They were only meant for a period of time.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

So why would you what would your argument be? Well, can I ask for a clarification real fast? When you were saying that as you read further into the books of the New Testament, you see it kind of fade off. Do you mean that we don't hear about these amazing miracles happening by any other anyone other than the main apostles? Is that what you meant?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

Well, I do believe that. And that's why apostolic gifts, I don't think any of us believe that they're apostles today. And so the idea would be an apostolic gift in which Paul distinguishes um 2 Corinthians. I'll just read this verse right here. 2 Corinthians uh 11. No, this is chapter 12, verse 12. The things that mark an apostle, signs, wonders, and miracles, were done among you with great perseverance. How are you inferior to the other churches except I was never burned to you? And then he goes on. But the idea is that Paul does distinguish these miracles that were given to the apostles. Apostles do not exist today, prophets do not exist today. We agree on that, right? I mean, we can say that there's not a there's no apostle alive today on this earth. And so with that, with the passing of the apostles, came the passing of the things that also mark an apostle. And a non-apostle would not have a supernatural gift today that marked an apostle yesterday, would be my argument.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Okay. So then my question would be: what would your argument be? Why is Paul writing to a church telling them how to use spiritual gifts appropriately if those spiritual gifts no longer are they are going to be able to use or it's going to be able to be used in the church?

SPEAKER_02 43:01

Aaron Powell Because Well, because in this he says the things that mark an apostle. And so he's he's dec he's he's declaring that. It doesn't mean he's writing to people to say that you will have these gifts. I think he is saying this is what makes an apostle, this is what doesn't make an apostle. I know that's not the exact argument he's making here, but I think just because Paul is describing what makes an apostle or what makes a pro I mean, it doesn't mean that he is necessarily giving them an explanation for themselves of what spiritual gifts they have. Well, I think very few people, very few people had supernatural gifts. And in the New Testament, we see the same people basically performing the same miracles. Trevor Burrus, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

And I guess I wonder what his definition of apostle is. Because a basic definition of apostle is someone who is sent and who is bringing a message, and it's usually connected to the gospel. But it also means the original twelve or the early church apostles that were growing Christianity all over the place. But a basic Definition of apostle is someone that is sent in a very basic sense.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Well, but right here in the immediate context of chapter 12, where he starts talking about it, he does not distinguish that, it's just for their own.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Well, but I love, and this is in my this is in my study Bible. But it says the false apostles had probably criticized Paul for not having supernatural experiences and doing miracles as they did. Paul did not want to argue for his apostleship in this way. He wanted to focus on his weaknesses, but expectations were so strong that he was forced to. So he reluctantly tells about his trip to paradise and recalls that he has done signs, wonders, and miracles. So I think in that context, Paul is almost giving an apologetic. He's almost making a defense for these miracles, signs, and wonders because there were false apostles who were claiming false miracles. And we have those same people today that claim these alleged supernatural things that were done through man. And Paul is saying, well, fine, you've backed me into a corner. This is what these are, and this is who has these.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Yeah, that and so this is where we would agree. I still believe it's not by man that these things are done. I do believe that supernatural things still happen as you do, as healing and miracles take place, but I also believe it is only done by God through the power of the Holy Spirit that is taking place. And so this is where like I think the disagreement begins. I my little short argument that I wrote out was if the Holy Spirit still indwells believers and the church is still ha and the church still has a mission, why would we assume that the Spirit stopped distributing gifts? He never explicitly said he would stop giving. And so we first received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If you go back to Acts 1.8, it says, But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria into the ends of the earth. That has not been accomplished yet. That mission is still going. We still have received that power of the Holy Spirit. I agree with you that I think people have taken these gifts and they have misused them and taken them out of context, and there's churches and individuals of those churches that have made the gifts something that they are not. But nowhere do I read where these gifts are going to cease until completeness comes, until we are standing face to face with Jesus. Why? Because we still have the same Holy Spirit that was first given and that was outpoured then that we do now. Yeah. Um, and he is the only one that gets the glory for all of it. So I don't believe that there's certain gifts that stopped, and there's other gifts that keep kept going. We don't, I don't believe we get to be that person that draws that line of which gifts continue to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Well, and I think Hebrews, Hebrews chapter 2, uh verse 3 and 4. Um, well, I'll just read verse 4. God also testified to it. Well, let me read verse 3. How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders, and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. Again, speaking to people that it was directly connected, it had a salvific motive. That was the only purpose, at least in as the author of Hebrews is saying, is that it was done in the name of salvation. And so that's where my question to you is where we read throughout the New Testament that it's always applied or attached to some direct revelation, prophecy, covenant, something along those lines. A lot of these alleged, what I would call Pentecostal or charismatic healing stories are just simply someone needed a needed uh supernatural healing, Joe Bob went, prayed over them, and they were miraculously healed and then went along their way. Okay, I can understand there's a testimony there, but I think that that actually is a different pattern than what we would find in New Testament.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah, and I again I would agree that there's churches like that and individuals that are doing it wrong, but just like we had our worship night, and we had people come forward that you know, they Maggie and Seth come forward, haven't been able to get pregnant. But that actually supports my argument. But they are coming forward out of faith, and we pray over them, and next thing you know, they're having a child. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

Because God hears prayers and God performs miracles. Okay, so nobody with the supernatural gift of healing at that front row was the one that through God performed that healing. That's what I'm arguing.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's how the spirit works, though. Like that's that gift is still there, and it says, and Paul talks about how that can manifest at different times in verse 12 in chapter 12.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

I think you're making my difference that you're making my argument that I agree at a worship night, God heals people. I believe that. I don't believe that God is using in now, that doesn't mean God doesn't hear prayers and answer prayer. If I pray for Jordan's eczema and God cures it, does that mean I have the supernatural gift of healing, or does it mean that God answers prayers regarding healing? I would argue the latter and not necessarily the former.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Well, in the same way, can God teach? But he get uses you to stand up there and teach. So he does everything through us. Right. And that's the same thing in the Bible.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

But I think that's an apples and oranges, I think that's kind of a bait and switch because those are two very, very different we because he doesn't teaching does not fall under miracles, signs, and wonders. It would not be a a strictly supernatural gift. And so I believe the gift of teaching. I believe the gift of prophecy exists. I believe that prophecy means proclaiming, not predicting. And so a lot of these gifts I we we would agree on. It's strictly the ones that were given to, as Paul distinguishes in 2 Corinthians 12, that were given to the apostles. That's that's the only argument that I'm making.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Yeah, but I and that it ended with them. And that it you're saying that it ended with them.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

That it that it ceased with the apostles because it was given not merely to heal people around the the the temple courts and around the village, it was given to them to show God's revelation and to show the supernatural power of God, and that was it.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

And then one of them that you throw in there is though is tongues, and Paul explicitly says that I wish you all would speak in tongues, pray in tongues as much as I do. And so if it's just uh revealed uh to the apostles, why would he be urging them to pray in tongues as much as he does?

SPEAKER_02 49:54

Yeah, so let me ask you this. Yeah. Do you agree? Well, you have to if you believe in scripture, but you agree that someone speaking outwardly in tongues at a church and where tongues are encouraged, that if there is not a quote unquote interpreter, and I mean for some people are wondering what in the world does that mean, that that Paul flat out says don't do that. It's just it's just mute. It's gobbledygook.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

Tongues is an under uninterpreted language. It's a whether it be speaking or praying, it's an uninterpreted language.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Yeah, and that's where I think people are going to get confused. That are we talking about Spanish or are we talking about the gobbledygook that you hear at some churches and you're like, what is going on? Why are they acting in the world?

SPEAKER_00 50:35

It would be uh literally a tongue that nobody knows, an uninterpreted language.

SPEAKER_02 50:39

And I'm only a resounding gong or a clinging symbol.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

That is literally the example they use. And so an interpreter present would be somebody that is also given that gift to be able to interpret what was being said. Why is that the case? And in chapter 14, he says this is actually a sign for the unbeliever. And what it is doing and how it's edifying the church is saying that word was a divine word from God, and we know that because that person had the gift of tongue, nobody knows what's saying, that person stepped up and he had the gift of interpretation. If somebody speaks in tongues in a corporate setting and there's not an interpreter present, then no, it was not of the Lord, and it's inappropriate, according to what Paul is saying there.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

Because he actually tells them if if you speaking in tongues to edify yourself makes an unbeliever stumble, yes, then you need to stop because their salvation, their understanding, if you're gonna be a stumbling block, then don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah, and so that's why even refers to that you're gonna look crazy. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

And that's for my interpretation, that's why people are like, Well, why have we ever seen it happen in a Baptist church like this? And I'd say in a church like ours, it's because we always have an unbeliever present. And from my interpretation of chapter 14, if there's unbelievers present in the church, then that's not a gift that would be apparent in that moment if there's unbelievers present.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

So then the but then the thing is is But it can be used to edify the body of Christ. But it it may just not be necessary.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Correct. And that's what he's saying. That's my that's my argument. But that's what means in that moment. But that's what Paul is saying is like, why would I speak in 10,000 words what I can say in five? That's the encouragement he's making. Because again, churches are doing it inappropriately in the Church of Corinth, just like churches are still doing it inappropriately today, but that does not mean that gift ceases to exist along with other people.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah, MacArthur makes an interesting argument that may offend some people, but I'm I'm I'm leaving her in a little bit. So, well, let me ask this. Let me then I think MacArthur makes a good point taking it today. His question is: why are churches that highlight speaking in tongues the most often have the worst theology? And we actually see this in church history. If you go back to the original church fathers, I'm gonna sound a little Catholic in this because I'm going back to the early church and the traditions of the early church, going back to Augustine and Origen and Irenaeus and Justin Martyr and all of these in Polycarp. I mean, we could go on and on. This isn't a discussion that shows up at all until about the 19th century. And then that is when the Pentecostal movement, the charismatic movement, really begins in our country. It really is a new phenomenon. And then we start having these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

That's the gobbledygook version of that.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yes. And so basically for 18 and a half centuries, go dating back to the early church fathers and all the treaties and all that fun stuff, the creed, all that, up until post-Charles Spurgeon, there is no theological conversation that is going on about should we be speaking in tongues in the church? The conclusion dating back to the early church is that this is basically decided in theology that tongues were for yesterday but are not for today. This conversation has only been resurrected or really erected, because it hasn't been resurrected with the foundation of the charismatic movement, the hyper charismatic, and I have charismatic friends, I have Pentecostal friends, some of them are a theologically astute and I respect them. Some of them have abhorrent theology. And I would argue in the Protestant sect of the church today that some of the worst theology, the motherlade of bad theology has come from the Pentecostal movement. And that's going to be controversial. I'm going to get a comment about that. But that's just what I believe.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Well, here's what I'd say. The reason it's getting brought up again is because now you're seeing churches doing it inappropriately again. That's connected to salvation.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

If you don't have tongues, you're not saved. Yeah. And I we've heard that a lot. If you don't have this gift, then you are not actually saved. And again, that is bad.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

We would say that would become work-based. But I would agree, though, that it can lead to a salvation because you're helping share the gospel in a language that someone then can understand.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

That to me is word. And I think you connect it to the apostle. Apostle, in the basic definition, is someone sent on mission to share the gospel. So we go to Panama, they mainly speak Spanish. Now we have the luxury of going with interpreters, or a lot of the people there can are bilingual. They can interpret for us because they're not.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

But I think Paul is using apostles. I think there's an apostle with a capital A, and there's apostle with a lowercase A. But in your definition, I would say we're all apostles in some way. Yeah. But we're not, we're not an apostle in the New Testament was called directly by God.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

But you look at the context of all, and it's all they're outreaching people. And they're all reaching people that are non-Jewish and they're they're Gentile. They're outside of their realm of they're foreigners to them, and they're going to speak a different language. So they're outreaching the nations, and so it's always connected to that. And then Paul talking about in Corinth is like, don't just start speaking your gobbledygook in your if you have someone in there and they hear you saying that, you're going to sound crazy. You don't have to speak a different language when you're in your own culture. We don't need to speak anything other than English here in Lebanon, Missouri.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

But you would agree that all of those apostles that when we talk about the twelve and then Paul, that they were all directly called by Christ. They were not self-proclaimed apostles, because Paul is referring to self-proclaimed apostles, but that Paul on the on the road was met by Christ, and then the apostles before him were alive when Christ was alive. So these apostles are ones that the ones that were given these miracles, you know. It started there.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

But you so your argument is that there were other apostles that happened after.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

I think that when you get sent on mission, inherently you're that's the definition of a lowercase apostle. I would say a lowercase apostle. I agree. And so then it has to, I guess you got to understand what is the context of what definition is Paul using for the term apostle. But even in when you look at the history of Acts, they're all out on mission. So they're all either an A because they're the first twelve, or they're a lowercase A, a Barnabas, he's not a first capital A apostle, but he's out on mission. Uh Timothy's out on mission, Titus is out on mission, all Apollos, they're all out on mission as lowercase apostles, apostles reaching these different places like Ephesus and Corinth and all these places. And wherever needed, I think if God is saying these people are going to be reached, and guess what? We're going to use whatever we got to use to reach them. So even like in Ephesus, which is Paul, capital A, it's fascinating because he all of a sudden has this ability to take sweaty handkerchiefs, and they take his sweaty handkerchiefs to people, and they're healed by his sweaty handkerchief. And all that is like, wow, how did Paul have this amazing power to heal and do these crazy miracles? I think it's because he is showing or God is showing I am the more powerful God of Ephesus, because these other gods they could do the same things with it. It was kind of like the Egyptian Pharaoh, his magicians could make a snake come from a staff. And it's like, well, how did Moses do that? Now these guys.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

But even that, but even in that, there was a limit to what they can do. There was a limit. And so then there's when they tried to recreate life, they realized that only this is only could be done by God.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

And so the same thing was re being repeated with Paul. Hey, guess what? My God's power is much greater than your God's power. So it caused people to go, whoa, yeah, what has he got that we don't? And it was all for the sake of reaching that group of people.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

I I I I couldn't agree more. And I had to look up the the Greek word that Paul uses in Sir 2 Corinthians 12 is apostolo, which in the Greek lexicon means sent by Jesus Christ. That's what the word means. And so we're all sent. Yeah. So then the question is, are we talking sent in a sense of, well, we agree the original 12 apostles are not the apostles we're talking about today?

SPEAKER_01 58:04

They had to start somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Yeah, exactly. So that's a good conversation. And I think that I understand that distinguishing what I would say apostles with a lowercase A, which all Christians should be apostles, the gift of prophecy is to proclaim. Well, what where does the word prophecy come from? Prophet. All Christians should be prophets in some way.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

What were they saying? You're not doing this according to what God wants you to do. You need to change.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

And we see in the beginning of like with um uh in uh in is it uh Zachariah, that when he's when he's claiming this prophecy, he's not predicting anything, it's proclamation. God is telling him to tell the people. It's proclamation, and so that's where um it's 12 o'clock, but listen. That that's I I I have so much more to say. But there's so much context. It's a fun conversation.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

That's where like I would say I I just the I believe in the same Holy Spirit. I believe that there's the same mission of going out and reaching people, and therefore the same Holy Spirit has the same gifts and they are still alive today. Being used for the same mission to edify the church by reaching the lost. And so when it's done inappropriately in the ones you mentioned, people try to use to edify themselves instead of the body of Christ. That is when it put what Paul's talking about is done in inappropriately. That doesn't mean that certain ones cease to exist, but if it's the same Holy Spirit, the mission is still going, I believe those gifts are still alive and well. And here's what I'll finally say I believe we sh everybody should be open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit, whatever gifts that they have, whatever the gifts wants to bring to us. And the reason that you may not see it in your life is because you're not open to it, but I believe it comes with being open but also ordered, and that's what Paul's talking about. Yeah, if it if it is a gift of the Holy Spirit, we should be open to receiving it and using it, but with a seatbelt, and that's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

But I would also but I would also say use discernment because I will say that's where this is. Heretical beliefs that they've been. Those are all the bad examples that people don't work. No, but that's why I said be careful, because what is their argument? And by the way, a lot of charismatic theology comes from the word of faith moment movement, the oral Roberts's the Benny Hens, all of that is word of faith, right? Uh Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hamlin, all word of faith. When when when I asked them, and when I went to Tulsa, I asked a pastor who was very charismatic. I said, My best friend, who was the most godly and holy man I've ever met in my life, Stephen Strauss, died of cancer. Stephen believed in the end of his life that he could be healed. He believed that. He had people pray over him. Stephen was not healed. Why? If if your theology is true, and his this this pastor's response, because your friend did not have enough faith.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

I discreet with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

And that's but that's what I'm saying. That is the worst factor in the will of God. It's the worst version, right? Yeah. But we see Paul prayed in 2 Corinthians 12 9, he prayed for his thorn to be removed. He eventually said, My thorn will not be removed, and so I boast in my weakness. And so the idea that if we have enough faith, it will be removed. Paul must not have had enough faith would be the argument. And so my thing is just be careful. And my final thing I will say on that is going back to the apostles, because I think that's an interesting conversation. Jesus never uses that language. And Paul very rarely uses the language of apostle. When it when when Jesus gives Matthew 28, when Jesus says, go and make disciples, baptize, teach all those things, he doesn't use the Greek word apostolo. Paul does not often use that. And I would have to do that. Maybe so, right? And sometimes those are interchangeable. But I would say that the the word usage is intentional. And so I would be interested to dive in a little bit more and find out, okay, when do we see it used and when do we see it not used? Unfortunately, we're out of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

But I think context is a great way to understand it. Um but uh for Stephen though, we look at it just from the lens of we want Stephen to stick around. He only knows his life and he wants to stick around. But who's to say God's not saying, hey buddy, I'm calling you to heaven? Yeah, your time is now to come be with me. And this is how it's gonna play out. Some people are ready for heaven. Nobody's gonna heal you because you're gonna be healed in my presence. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

And so that's that's where I believe um that's the part we can't comprehend. So again, but that's where I'd agree with. We agree, we agree on 90% of this stuff, if not more, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah, that's what I would agree. That is a bad example. That is somebody that is not doing it appropriate. Well, have it in a base.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

But some unfortunately, sometimes the worst example is the loudest example, and so that's why it's important to me because kids are watching um TikToks of these pastors that are preaching this, that that is a very vocal sect of church.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

But that's what I say, like the churches that are doing it right, you're not gonna hear about just like Paul didn't write churches letter to the churches that were doing it right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

Which ones are doing it right? Can you give me one?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Well, the the use Paul's example. He didn't write a letter to the churches that were doing it right. He wrote it to the church that was doing it inappropriately.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

But what I'm saying is, and you don't have to say it out loud, but if you thought about it, can you think of one church in the West today that's doing it correct, according to Paul? I don't think I can't think of one.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

But again, I think you're going what kind of tongue you talking about, the gobbledygook or a foreign language? Well that's what I are you talking about like all of the above specific church. Yeah, question the gobbledygook. Is that the type of tongue that we're talking that the Holy Spirit is connected to? I there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

You're probably taking it very much from a missions field standpoint, where there are some very good testimonies, as you said, of people that said, I just started talking in this guy over here who doesn't does can't speak a word of English. He he somehow knew what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

I believe that there are miraculous things that happen. I just don't think that that's going to be given to an individual, that God can take care of it by himself. That's that's basically my argument. So it's fun. Yeah, it is. We've Luke and I've been debating this for six years now.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

So it's but I think we're mixing the two different kinds of tongues into one, and they're very distinct, and we need to probably debate them distinctly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

I don't think there's any debate like for you on the Acts two. Yeah, I'm not I'm not in their usage.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Yeah, I'm I'm not I'm I think the Acts II is a very different figure than the gobbledygook.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

Yeah, I think on Acts 2 we we're we we probably can come to very very clear common ground. Yeah. I'm more focused on, and when we're talking bad theology, the the problem is going back to the whole bait and switch thing, is that a lot of charismatics will use Acts 2 to describe 1 Corinthians 13 and 40. They're doing the latter tongues, but then their proof text that they will go to will be the former, and they will say, well, hold on. And and and cessationists will do the same thing, is that we will take one passage and we will blanket it, and that's why to do this in 45 minutes doesn't do it justice.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Is even just the we start with the tongues of foreign languages, and you said the latter tongues, it's like, well, where did it transition to a different type of tongue? And where did that come from? And who authorized that? You know, I mean that's why Satan quotes, you know, is that even of God?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Well, and I think that's where Paul does talk about ceasing and passing away. Um and so I think that the one thing Paul tells us, that's not a proof text for me or continuationism. But what that says is Paul flat out says, hey, this is finite. There will be a day where tongues cease. And he doesn't completion comes. And he doesn't give us the Gregorian calendar, but the Greek word, he Paul uses three very different Greek words in that 1 Corinthians 13 8. And the Greek word to describe tongues is very different because a lot of times people will put knowledge and tongues together and say, Well, see, knowledge hasn't passed away, therefore tongues hasn't passed away. Paul isn't saying they're the same, he's distinguishing the three, and the Greek wording would say that those are three very different things that Paul's describing. And the problem is, is like I wish I if I had a time machine, I would say, hey Paul, can you write a little bit more on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Well, like, you know, can you clarify like I don't even go to that argument because to me that's what I hear? The only answer is we're in heaven. Whenever that because he talks about completeness, completion can be a good thing. And then in context, and then on context, he's talking about whenever we're face to face, you know, with God. And so that's why that one I think is almost obvious. Whenever the end comes and everything is complete, the only thing that's going to remain is love. All these gifts are not going to matter. The only thing that's going to remain.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

Speaking of the end, our final debate is on eschatology. And that's the one I think I'm most excited about, and I think the people are the most excited about. On the end times? Yes. Because not a lot of people have a huge belief on the age of the earth. Premium. And not a lot of people have have studied a lot on this, but this next one we're going to talk about. Most Christians have some opinion on. And I'm pre. So I'm I'm a dispensationalist. I get that uh really for a lot from my reading and understanding of John MacArthur, um, who ticked off a lot of Southern Baptists because him being pre, I'm pre, you are not, you are not. So what do you know? I'm in the hot seat again. So that'll be fun. We'll we'll we'll save that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

I will say none of us are mid.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

None of us are mid. We who is mid? Do you know anyone that's mid? I don't know if I've ever really met anybody. But they broke they throw that there's three options. Caleb, do you know any mids?

unknown 1:06:30

I don't know the top.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

He does not. We got to find a mid. If you're a mid, comment below. So we'll leave it at that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:35

We want to talk to you. That was fun. Alrighty.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Wait, love you guys. This is fun. You mean us or the audience? I mean them. I hate you guys. I loathe you. Agape, agape for you. Agape for you, not for you. I'm kidding. Love you guys. Um, we will be back and uh tune in next Sunday. We start a brand new sermon series. It you're gonna love it. It's on the book of Romans. Um, and uh I think it's gonna be great for a church. And so until Sunday, same time, same location. Keep making heaven crowded, and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

Peace.