Freedom in Christ & Country | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 39

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we explore Romans 4 and the powerful truth that our standing before God is based on faith—not our performance.

As we celebrate the freedoms we enjoy as a nation, we also discuss a far greater freedom: the freedom found in Jesus Christ. Through the example of Abraham, Paul shows that righteousness has never been earned through works, religious rituals, or personal achievement. It has always been received by faith.

In a world that constantly tells us to prove ourselves, Romans 4 reminds us that salvation is a gift of grace. We are not made right with God because of what we do, but because of what Jesus has already done for us.

Whether you're exploring Christianity for the first time or looking to deepen your understanding of the gospel, this conversation will point you back to the freedom, hope, and assurance found in Christ alone.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 39
📖 Scripture: Romans 4
✝️ Topics: Faith, Freedom, Justification, Abraham, The Gospel
🇺🇸 Special Discussion: Freedom in Christ & Country
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke, and today we got Pastor Jordan, and we are going to be diving into Romans 4 and 5. Pastor Jordan, you did a great job on Sunday. I'm excited for this conversation. But before we get there, this is going out right before we celebrate in America our 250th anniversary. So pretty awesome. Independence week, baby.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Yeah. Have you watched any of the uh reels or YouTube of the folks that are here for the FIFA soccer? Oh my gosh. Those are hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Injecting in my veins. So they're talking about how great America is. And I'm like, this is the best non-paid ad you could ever have America.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

They're even talking about now that there will be an increase or an influx of tourism because of all the feedback people are hearing. What I did not realize was how much negative press we get about how if you show up to America, you're just gonna get arrested by eyes. So there's race wars everywhere, and there's all this mayhem going on all over the country, and they get here and they're like, I don't see any of that.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

And it's like if you want to hear the negative about America, watch some news. If you want to experience how great America it is, drive through it. Yeah. Because you just get to see its beauty.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Well, and then there's that, what is he, Scottish? He's literally in a kilt and he's walking from California to Massachusetts uh in a kilt as to prove that you can. Yeah. And he's going through some, he's going through St. Louis. I mean, he's going through all the cities. Yeah. And uh, but no, some of my favorite is when they people experience biscuits and gravy. They experience barbecue. Um, those crack me up because they like the dude's got biscuits and gravy in front of him. He's I think he's from England, and I think it's his wife is you know, playing the video, and she's like, What do you think? And he goes, This looks absolutely disgusting. And then he takes a bite and he just about falls out of his chair because it melts in his mouth. And he's like, That is one of the best things I've ever had. You know, I mean, it's I love it, you know. And and then then I guess there was also a TSA is telling people you need to check all your ranch dressing because you can't carry all that on. They are buying ranch dressing because they've finally discovered how good it is. And Roger would love that. Oh, yeah, he would love that. And then uh what town was it that ran out of beer? Um, there was literally a city that ran out of beer. It might have been Boston. Wow. Yeah. Uh, because um they're having fun while they're here. The old Boston beer party. That's amazing. Samuel Adams ran out. Yeah, that's who it was. Exactly who it was. Samuel Adams ran out of beer. I mean, how do you do that? You are a brewery right there. You're just like, quick, make more. But no, uh to me, it's just it's another uh it I it couldn't have happened in a more perfect time. It's our 250th birthday, the World Cup is here, and the world is getting to experience what we take for granted every single day growing up in God bless America and how amazing this country is. And I think it's also it's highlighting just all the different freedoms we have that we have no idea are not freedom somewhere else. Yeah, the things we have like ranch dressing, people don't realize we don't they don't have that somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

We're like, you don't have ranch dressing, free coffee refills.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I saw one word somebody was going crazy because he got free coffee refills. There's another one, the dude's an Italian, and he's getting Coke refills. Yeah, and his buddy's like, Why are you drinking all this Coca-Cola? He's like, Because it's free. You've had four, and he's like, I'm gonna have as many as I want. And the waiter said, Would you like another? Yes, I would. And they're like, You're gonna get sick. And he goes, I don't care. Yeah, I can. Yeah, they were they were drunk on freedom. It was hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So well, it's it goes back into we let what other people say dictate how we experience things so much, and so what you hear is gonna eventually turn into what you see. And so if you're constantly watching the news and they're painting some portrait about what it's like to live here, you're gonna start to see that whenever you go out. But if you were not to listen to any of that and you're just to go out and experience life, you're gonna realize how great this place is.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Yeah, but even still, that's what they were looking for because that's what they heard, yeah, and they didn't find it. Right. And they were like, wait a minute, and they immediately changed their mind. Something happened. They were, I mean, the hospitality quickly changed their mind.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

But the people that talk about the how they hate America, or they talk about the things that they dislike about America, how much of the things they hate about America or dislike about America from people that live in America, or from what they actually experienced, or from what they hear on the news or from what people have told them.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, the vast majority don't match what they hear about. Yeah. Yeah, because I I mean, I've even remembered even before the World Cup showed up, watching, I think it was a guy from Britain, he went down the bayou or some type area, and he recorded this on his Instagram reel. And even just the whole his everyone told him, do not go there, you will get killed. Yeah, you will not live through that trip down in the bayou. I think it was either Louisiana, Alabama kind of area, very deep south. And he showed up there and got nothing but, hey man, come along. Yeah, what I'd show you all around. They take him out on their boat, he gets to shoot a gun for the first time. I mean, I think they even caught an alligator. I mean, just he's he could not believe the opposite of what he was told. Um, I love that. Yeah, uh, and it makes me just proud of that our fellow citizens, no matter what state you're in, we're a bunch of good people. That's right. We just want to we're hospitable. Um even though the South is known for its hospitality, I think it's known across America. We're just good, nice people that I do believe most people are good.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's obviously there's evil in the world, there's bad things that go on.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, and and I think that even gets twisted because I think most Americans we don't mind helping other places in the world because we want you to be free like we are. It just sometimes the politics gets involved and then the wrong perception gets involved and things get messed up. But I think at the heart of it, we want everyone to experience what we've got. Yeah. Um, because it's absolutely amazing. Uh but growing up in it, you don't know any different. You don't know that other places don't have what we have. Uh and again, the World Cup has, I think, shined an awesome light on how amazing America is. Yeah. That was another that's another thing. They even talked about culture overseas, I guess they say America has no culture. And then people are like, no, they have more culture than anywhere in the world because they have 50 different states that have 50 different cultures. Yeah. And every state you go to has its own culture. Although they're all part of they're all American, there's something unique about every single state. And then everything they're blown, the other thing they're blown away by, every single state has just absolutely amazing parks and amazing places to go see and amazing places to go do things. And they're just blown away by that. The abundance of greatness.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

I mean, all the national parks we have, the state parks we have. Unbelievably beautiful. We can freely go and experience those. Like you don't have to pay anything. Yeah, you can just go enjoy being outside.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

You can literally think about every single state has a real numerous beautiful places to go and visit if you're on a vacation. Yeah. Missouri alone, packed with beautiful places to go and see throughout the entire state. And it's like that for the other 49 states as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

There's also somebody right now, they are running, they have a group of people, and they're leading up to the fourth, running with the American flag from California all the way to DC. Wow. And the flag never stops moving. And so it's not an easy thing to do. Literally, like a relay that they're running across America, and they have obviously they do like 15 mile checkpoints. And so once one gets to 15 miles, they hand it off literally like a baton to the flag, and they're getting such it's like forced gump. Like people are joining in with them, they're knowing the checkpoints, and a bunch of people are joining in with these runners and running with the flag. And I'm like, this is real life forced gump taking place.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

That's awesome. Well, and the edge is a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

But like now they're it's like now they're getting like police escorts through towns, and it's crazy how different communities are showing up to just watch the flag be that's ran across the nation.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

But just it's just but that's how cool it is. Yeah, that's just how the kind of pride we have of our country and what we believe in, yeah, how much we love it. Um, and everybody wants to come together and be a part of it. And just it's yeah, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

It's cool because they've been documenting it also. Like, of course, you have a few people that are yelling at them or throwing things, but they said a vast majority are cheering them on, of course, people paving the way, like police officers, you know, giving them an escort, people joining in and running with them.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I bet what happened is somebody heard about them getting stuff thrown at them in other towns. Said, well, that's not gonna happen in our town. They just they bring out the police escorts, and yeah, it's pretty it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

But yeah, love it, and a lot of amazing things as we talk about just this independence week. What's your favorite Fourth of July tradition that we do? Fireworks, hot dogs? What uh what's the favorite thing you do?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Well, I mean, yeah, the typical stuff we like to cook out. We go back home to my family in Kansas. My parents' neighborhood is absolutely insane. Panoramic fireworks, and we're not talking just bottle rockets. These are, I don't know where these people get this stuff, but it's on the level of commercial grade. And you can literally just go sit in their backyard and experience panoramic non-stop. And then it was so funny because my mom was like, Hey, you got to come out here and see this. You got to come see this. Because normally we just stayed here. We went to Jeff City or something like that to go see fireworks at the Capitol. And we finally went out to, and she's like, You just got to come try it out. It's pretty amazing. And then she even said at about 10 o'clock, there'll be a lull because I think people are going and buying reloading, they're reloading, they're going back to all the tents because our community is unique because in Wichita it's against city limit ordinances to go do the big stuff. And we our town is right on the county line of Wichita and my hometown. And you you get into my hometown, and there's there's no less than 15 major uh fireworks tents, and it's gotten so big that they just have brick and mortar buildings that they literally only open, or they you can book them for an event or something. But their main thing is the how much they sell so many fireworks, it's insane. They have a brick and mortar. Yeah, but um people literally go back to the tents, they buy more, and it goes on until at least midnight. A panoramic view of commercial grade type fireworks for hours on end with music going, cooking out. I love it. It's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

Yeah, and not my favorite thing, it is to me, it unites people. And it's just a reminder of all the men and women who serve this great nation. It reminds us of the freedom that we have, but unites us as friends, families to come together and just enjoy the freedoms that we have.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah, and that's the same thing. The neighbors, they all get together in my parents' neighborhood. They're yeah, and they're we're all sharing fireworks and we're shooting them off together. And it's just fun.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

That's where I think, you know, connecting it to the Christianity. You know, we even have things that we do to remind us of the main thing. And, you know, we can get caught up so easy in the little things that go on throughout life. But we have little, you know, moments that we do as followers of Christ, whether it's little things but big things like taking communion or as we celebrate Easter, as we remember Christmas. It's just so amazing on those days because you have the full body of Christ coming together and we're united. Remembering our spiritual freedom. Correct. Yeah. That we get to celebrate and do.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, absolutely. And it's a good thing, and we obviously do those things for a reason because we can forget. Yeah, uh, we easily forget how good we have it, even as Christians. Yeah. The special gifts that we've been given from Christ through Christ. And yeah, uh, yeah, we definitely need to remember.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

So here's my segue into the conversation today is the same thing as you talked about people experiencing America for themselves for the first time and not what some news outlet is telling them. It's so important even spiritually, as we walk with Christ. Don't just take what a guy like you and me say from a stage or something you hear on TikTok or something that somebody else says on social media or some other pastor. Experience Jesus for yourself. Yeah. And and how do you do that? It's simple. Open up his word. And he says he is the word, right? And so open up his word, take it in the word, study it, and experience it, read it, understand it for yourself, and not just what somebody else is telling you to believe about a certain thing. Yeah, and I think there's so much power in that when we open it up and we come to the conclusion on our own from studying it because we see the words we have experienced it ourselves, and there's just so much power that's such a huge spiritual principle, I think, whenever you're approaching scripture, trying to remove that pre-understanding and just reading the word as it is right in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah, I think that's of course in Romans, Paul, it's the power of the gospel to salvation, the power of the gospel to salvation. There is something in that just as you go and learn about who Jesus is and what he has done for us, and you accept that into your life, there is this powerful transformation that takes place. If it truly rests in your heart and you truly believe, and that's what Paul's talking about. It's kind of, and you really you gotta really think about what he's saying there. This the story of Jesus has the power to salvation, which is also a changed life. It's there's nothing else that can has that ability, has the ability to do that. Nothing else has that power to go read about somebody and it can change your life like that. If you truly like, okay, I believe in what this person, Jesus, who says he's God, can do for me and my life. Um yeah, it's crazy. Who knew? Right, and that's where it's just until you just just try it, experience it, give it a go. I promise you, you will not go back.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

That's right. Yeah. I mean, that's right. And because once you experience that freedom, man, yeah, there there's nothing like it. Yeah. And that's, you know, if we're talking about Paul and the argument he's making in Romans, really what he's trying to he's building up to this point where he's talking about what it looks like to live freely in Christ. Yeah. And how the gospel is the good news, which means it is a an event that took place that was so good that people shared it over and over again. And why is it good? Because it brings eternal life. He's talking about the freedom that comes from no longer are we tied to our sin, no longer are we bound and slaves to death. No, we now get the freedom to live for eternity.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah. But then there's even just the not only is the there the grand picture at the end, we live, we don't, we will live eternally with Christ in heaven and God in heaven. There's something though that then happens for we've seen the changed life that it has. It sets you free from struggles in your life, from addictions in your life, where nothing else that they people have ever tried worked until they met Jesus. Just like you talked to your dad about drug court. Yeah, they've inserted Jesus into this whole process of rehabilitation, and it's been a the game changer of all game changers. It people don't go back once they understand who Jesus is, and there is such power and something that happens in them, it changes them from the inside that they don't want to go back to their old ways. Yeah, they see it in a new way, they feel it, experience it, whatever it is. So not only is it just this long-term eternal thing, it is a right now, it changes you, it gets you out of your struggles. You insert Jesus into your family, and you're gonna see a lot of bad things go get out and leave. You're gonna see a turnaround with your kids, you're gonna see a turnaround in your life. And not that life gets easier, and that's kind of one of the things I kind of threw out there in my sermon with regards to you know the prosperity gospel. Your life's gonna be great and you're gonna get rich. No, no, no, no, no, no. But there will be a change in your life for the better. Yeah, you will see these struggles in your life either fizzle out or go away, or you find an answer that says, I can get through this or I can deal with the struggle because now I have a different hope in life. I'm not I'm not bound to this struggle anymore. But I think you just hit it.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

The freedom comes from our priorities shift. And so whenever we enter into a relationship with Christ, we have a new purpose, a new desire, because we have a new destination. Yeah. And since now our hope, yeah, since now our hope and our new destination is in heaven, it changes our purpose and why we live and how we live. But what it also does, because before, if we are living for ourselves, what do we want? We want glory and fame. We want people to like us, we want people to appreciate us, we want as much money as possible, we want to be successful in how the world defines it. Well, whenever you give your life to Christ, what you realize is none of that stuff matters.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

None of it. And so the weight and the pressure of I have to fit in, the weight and pressure of I have to be on top of society, the weight and pressure of I got to make as much money as possible, the weight and pressure of I have to have the biggest house and all these different things, that's no longer there anymore. Yeah. Because you're living for someone else. You're living for the kingdom of God instead of your kingdom. Yeah. And what you notice when people start doing is whenever they start living for the kingdom of God, they start enjoying things in this kingdom a a whole lot more.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, in a different way. In a different way. Yeah, for sure. And even in the hope of even eternity, there's that hope, and hey, I'm gonna trust in what Jesus is saying he's gonna do. He's gonna see me through my struggles. Yeah, he walks along, he's growing me in my suffering. Okay, I'm gonna put my trust in that. Yeah. And Jesus, I'm gonna see what you do in this. And man, again, this huge they put their faith in what Jesus has said he's going to do, not even just what he said he's done, yeah, but what he will do as he walks and he grows you with this Holy Spirit, this sanctification process that happens happens, and then people experience that. When you stop, look back, the whole hindsight's 2020 is oh my goodness, absolutely. In your walk with Christ, you look back and you're gonna be like, Oh wow, I see where he showed up here and here and here all along the way. Yeah, he did come through for me. He is true to his word, he will be there with me, even when it's tough. Yeah, may not feel like it at the time, but you're he's there and he's helping you.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

But that's and that's where Paul's getting at here now because what had taken place is the Jews have now gone from bounding themselves to sin to bounding themselves to the law. And what Paul is telling them is like, hey, Christ has set you free not just from the sin, but he's also fulfilled the law. So stop putting all your faith, hope, and trust in the law and put your faith into Jesus. And these works that you're gonna do are gonna come from the overflow. Yeah, the law was never meant to save you. Right, and but what we see, even people in the church, why it's such a people feel pressure about following Christ in an unhealthy way, is because they're still putting their faith into the works of their traditions, what they can do instead of into the work of Christ. Right. And so that's the narrative he's trying to break down is like, hey, you just went, you were bound to sin. Well, now you're you're just binding yourself to a law whose purpose was just to reveal your sin. And so he's he's coming after the Jews and and help helping them understand righteousness, it only comes through this faith in Jesus Christ. And I yeah, he did a great job on Sunday connecting that dot of I hope so revealing, like, hey, he separated them into two groups. Yep. I was just following your lead on that. Your righteousness in your that's why you did so good. You know, he separated them into two groups, and that's what he did, you know, from Gentile and Jew. Yeah, in Roman 1 through 3, hey, there's two groups. You guys are separating from Jews and Gentiles. Hey, that's not actually the distinction. Your two groups are righteous and unrighteous. Because one day when we get to heaven, there's only gonna be two groups, the righteous and the unrighteous. And so Paul is telling them, okay, there's righteous and unrighteous. Guess what, everybody? We all belong in the unrighteous category. Gentiles, you guys were rebellious sinners. You're in the unrighteous category. Here's a list of all your sins. Uh, Jews, church people, you are just religious sinners. And so you either have a rebellious sinner or religious sinners. And here's how you guys are religious sinners by putting your faith in the law instead of your faith in Jesus. And you're trying to force that upon other people.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

And I'd even add to that, you are judging the Gentiles for what they have done, but oh, by the way, you did it too. Yeah. I mean, I'll just give you one word, Babylon. That's Babylon showed up and conquered you because you turned away from your God. And so you've done the exact same things. Yeah. And you desired the things that the Gentiles had, and you ended up going for that. And that's what created your downward spile to depravity, and you ended up now being ruled by Romans and multiple other conquering nations prior to them.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

So and so he he paints this all, and and it all again points to Romans 3.23 for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And you recap that, that's where he got here. So if that's true, if we're all unrighteous, how do we get to this righteous group? Well, that was Romans 3.21 through 31 that Gabe did. And the only way to do that, and is what Paul explains in those 10 verses, is you're justified through faith in Jesus Christ. And he goes through, explains how what Jesus did brings us justification, and how we that's how we move from the unrighteous to the righteous is through the faith in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross. And what he does in chapter four and what he's building up and what you explain on Sunday is this. But he already predicts the argument that the Jews are gonna make. He says, He knows what they're gonna say. Well, our faith flows from the father of our faith, Abraham. And so he knows that they're probably gonna use the argument, okay, faith is what makes us saved. Well, wasn't Abraham deemed faithful by his works?

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, and they'll even say because he followed the law, because he was circumcised, all those different things. It's like, hey, by the way, the law came 430 years later. Yeah. Hey, by the way, he got circumcised after it was credited to him as righteousness. So, no, those were not the reasons why he was considered righteous.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, and so Paul is trying to prove to them the point. And as you said, Abraham's the first witness he calls to the stand. Yeah. Of saying, hey, Abraham's an example of what righteousness looks like. Why? Yeah, because God called him righteous. Well, why did God call him righteous? Was it for his works? Or was it for his faith? Yes, trust in God. And that is the question that he answers in chapter four. Chapter four. Through through Abraham. And what he's trying to show is in chapter four and five of Romans that we are deemed righteous, just like Abraham was, not from his works, but through his faith.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah. The other thing I hope to, what I was hoping to accomplish in that is by going back to Genesis chapter 15 and starting in verse 1 and going through verse 6 there, where then it says, and this is what credited him as righteousness. Yeah. How just basic of a faith it was. All Abraham did was believed what God said he would do. That was it. And then when you think about then the situation that Abraham and Sarah were in, when that started, he was 75 and she's 65. And it wasn't until he's basically a hundred that they finally get this child. It was all just, and they go through several trials and tribulations of, are we really sure? Let's try this. You know, maybe if we were to do maybe this is how God thinks it is. And they, but yet all through that, whether they were doing the right thing or not, or even when they had moments of doubt of God, are you really still going to do this? Because man, 25 years, could you imagine waiting 25 years to get an answer to something that God flat out told you multiple times? He shows up in in a vision or in person and says, Hey, we're going to do this. And you're like, Okay, when? No, I mean, 25 years is a long time. And I mean, people may argue, well, they had they were they lived longer back then. They I don't care. 25 years is still 25 years. 25 years I had trouble waiting five years.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

So, like when I seriously, when I first felt the calling to the Lord to go into ministry, I was a sophomore in high school. You're ready to go right then? I was ready to go. Yeah. And little I know, the Lord, I needed to go through college. And that, but I found myself as a junior in college. Ready to go. Wondering, what am I doing here? Yeah. You know, I I I was playing baseball, I was doing these different things, and I said, Lord, you you called me to ministry, but yet I haven't I can't tell you last time I preached someplace. I can't tell you last time I shared the gospel with somebody. Like you called me playing baseball. You called me into ministry. Yeah. I've just spent three years of my life going to school for this, but yet you're not opening up any doors. And then the phone rang. Like, what's going on? And then less than a month later, that that's when I got the call, and I was like, Yeah, should I pray that prayer like three years ago? Yeah, but it just wasn't the right time. Right. And it was me getting impatient for the calling, and over a span of five years, especially from the time you're 15 to you know, 20 or you know. I mean, five years of that time, it's that's a third of your life. Right. And so you're but still, I just look back in that time, like, who was I? Yeah. You know, he planted that seed, and by golly, he knew I needed all the training that took place from there to there. But that's what I like, even going back to, yes, it took 25 years, but it wasn't 25 years of idle living. Right. Like Abraham and and Sarah, what took faith took place over those 25 years of their life to prepare them for the moment of them having a son? Yeah, Isaac. Yes, because there had to be a foundation laid of that faith that Abraham was just stepping into for him to be able to be the forefather of our faith and pass it down to his son, Isaac. Yeah. So he was ready for that. And we see him go through that training, it wasn't called training, but go through those different things in his life that was building him up and leading him to that point where whenever he did receive a child, he's like, I get it now. Yeah, I understand.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah, but in it, I just see this like humanity of with regards to Abraham, and then you even go to the the hall of faith in in Hebrews 11, and all the people that get listed there. There are some that were, oh yeah, that that's faith. I mean, Enoch, I mean, the dude never had to die because he walked with God and God took him. You that's all you really know about Enoch. But you go through that list of other folks, uh, from like a Gideon to a Samson. I even throw in Jacob. Jacob was a mess, and that's who became Israel. So this is uh Abraham's grandson, basically. There's a lot of scholars that believe for most of Jacob's life until he literally wrestles with God. He is not a believer. Yeah, he does not trust in that God. He he knows there is a God, but he hasn't really truly put his faith and trust in him. And it is a long journey with Jacob until he finally says, Okay, I'll trust in you. Because he even throws out, well, if you do these things, then I will type bargaining things uh with God to almost like prove yourself to me, yeah, type stuff. And so, but we all may automatically just think of a Jacob. Oh, yeah, he had to have believed in God from the day he was born. Nope. But he's in the hall of faith.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

And so I love the humanity of it that God works within our humanity, and even with the situation with Abraham, just the most basic. Hey, just trust what I tell you, just believe in what I say and trust in me. And that was credited to him as righteous. And then anybody else that does the same thing throughout history, whether you're a Jew or Gentile, you are an heir of Abraham. Yeah, it's just crazy how basic and simple it was. It had nothing to do with how good of a guy Abraham was or the things he did. It was all about do you trust what I tell you?

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Do you believe what I'm gonna do for you? Yeah, I do. Okay, good. That's all I'm asking. It is that simple. Yeah, I mean, it and that's the part that kind of just blew blows my mind. And then I tried to connect that to today, we still get this so wrong. Yeah, we always try to put this checklist of things that I've got to do in order to be a good Christian or to be made right enough to then for God to accept me. No, there that is so backwards to what we think it should be.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

And that's like Paul, he's so great at making argument, and we talked about how you know he probably understood law and argued like a lawyer. And he even starts his argument off, what shall we say then? And again, he's coming off of telling them, hey, the only way to get from unrighteousness to righteousness is by faith in Jesus Christ. And he says, What shall we say then? Let's just bring up our forefather Abraham. And he goes straight into Abraham was just if Abraham was justified by works, then he had something to boast about, but not before God.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

And so he was showing them that it has to be through God because if Abraham was to boast, it had to be through what God was doing and not what Abraham did. Yeah. And that's what he's getting back to us even today. Why does it have to be faith? Because it has to be the only thing we can boast in is Christ and not and not us. And I think that's such an important part of people sharing their testimony. And people don't share their testimony. When I ask them, like, hey, why what's your holdup in sharing your testimony? You know, you typically get one of two answers of why people won't share their testimony. Number one, they say my story's boring. They say, Well, I just always grew up in church. Yeah. And I just always kind of knew still speaks to people. I I just always kind of knew. And and I I eventually just stepped in and I was like, What are you talking about? That is probably the most powerful testimony that you can tell me. Because you're telling me you're in the small percentage of the world that lived in a a place in a location throughout the world where you could freely hear the gospel. You grew up with parents that love Jesus and they love Jesus in such a way you wanted to have the same faith that your parents had. That is a miracle in itself. The second reason people don't share their testimony is because they're still ashamed about their sin. Oh, yeah. And and in that and who they were before. But the reason why that, and this speaks against that, is because whenever you're afraid to share a testimony because of that, you are still focusing on yourself and boasting about yourself instead of the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

You don't fully freed yourself from your sin. Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

But whenever you you you switch that and you and you change your mindset and you realize, oh no, yeah, my sin was so great, but that means I can boast on the Lord even more. Yeah. Because only God could save a wretch like me.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah. And you don't have to get into the nitty-gritty details of your past and your life. You can just talk about how I was really bad. Yeah, I did a lot of really stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

And most people probably already know. Like, hey, weren't you the guy that was doing that? You grew up in this town, everybody knows everybody. Weren't you the guy that got arrested for that? Weren't you the guy that was drinking that? Weren't you the guy that cheated on his uh wife or the girl that cheated on her husband? Weren't you the guy that did that? And you know what the answer is? Like, yeah. That was me. But Jesus. But Jesus, yeah. Like, and if Jesus can forgive me, man, what can he do in your life? You know, and so I think it's getting to that point of, yeah, the only way we can boast is in the Lord. And so he starts his argument off saying that is what had to happen for Abraham. Is it had to come from God. That's why he had to wait till he was 100. That's why it had to come through God's way, yeah, instead of on Abraham's timing and then coming up in the world.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

And obviously, God has his own timing, right? And he knows the events of how things need to play out. And even just the whole why did Jesus show up when Jesus shows up, there's a reason, there's timing and all that. But even I'll add into what you're talking about there, there if it's anything we do, and this is why Paul talks about hey, if you go work for somebody and you work for wages, the employer is then obligated to pay you. Yeah, God has zero obligation to do anything for us. Yeah, and we have done absolutely nothing to deserve what he's done. And that's then another part of the beautiful thing of this, because God loves us so much, he's bringing this to us as a gift. And yeah, that then brings it. There's nothing on you. You cannot say you had any part in this. 100% God. Yeah. And that this obligation to God is obligated. And again, that's a whole nother rabbit hole we could go down of, well, why doesn't God do this? Why doesn't God do that? He doesn't have to do anything. All of this that we're going through right now is 1000% on us. Yeah. Why haven't we? Is really the question. God doesn't have to do anything, we're the ones that walked away. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

And so I love and I want to go back to the imagery that you were making of we're in a courtroom. You started it. Abraham just played off of what? Abraham's on the witness stand. Paul has called his witness. Because he's already trying to prove to them that this is what righteousness looks like. Yeah. The very first, and the overall thing that he's trying to get them to understand is Abraham, you were deemed righteous. Why? Because you believed. Because I believed. And what he said. That's the summary. That's it. And then from that main question, main point, he then asks follow-up questions or follow-up comments that prove how that is true. Right. And so if we're looking at chapter four and you're wanting to try to like break it up in your mind and how to understand it fully, Abraham's on the stand. Main point is that verses one through three. Okay, you were deemed righteous because of what you believe. Then what does he go into? Hey, there's another example. David even says it. Yep. Right. And so he talked about Abraham.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Blessed are those whose sins are forgiven.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yep. We went to Abraham back to Genesis and said, okay, he quotes that. That's he was deemed righteous because he believed. Okay, it's proved there in Genesis. Then the next argument underneath that he makes, hey, David even said, blessed are those. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

And then from there, I'm surprised he didn't quote Moses because those would have been the top three of all time that anybody would have. Paul can't be perfect. No. Yeah. But but either way, regardless of Moses, because Moses was so attached to the law, the Abraham and the David, and then even just David's story of just how he screwed up so bad several times, but yet he had a heart that constantly longed to follow Jesus or follow God. Yeah. So much of his stuff reflects Jesus. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

But I think he was following the line of Jesus, though. Like going from, you know, how even how the genealogy we get goes from David to Abraham. True. And so I got you. But then he gets into, okay, even David says, We're blessed, blessed is the one that their sins are forgiven. Sins are forgiven, Jesus counts as righteous. And then he asks the next question to follow up that well, is the blessedness only for the circumcised?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

And he goes back and he uses, and it's almost like their own argument. Yeah, he's asking Abraham, like, okay, is it only for the circumcised, or is it also for the uncircumcised? And then he points to Abraham's life and he asks Abraham to tell the Jews, hey, when were you deemed righteous? Was it before you were circumcised or after you were circumcised? After. Yeah, right. So you were deemed righteous, and then you were circumcised. Yeah. So you didn't have to be circumcised to be deemed righteous. It was just a sign of the covenant. It was actually what sealed his righteousness. And he's again making that argument to the Jews. And what's starting to click now is they're saying, oh, they think in order to be righteous, you have to be circumcised. And then you become righteous. Right? It's actually flipped. You're deemed righteous, and then you are circumcised. And by the way, if you still think I'm talking about physical circumcision, you're missing it.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

I'm not talking about the heart.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I'm talking about the heart. Yeah. And kudos to Paul. I don't know if it's just because he didn't want to circumcise people as a pastor. I appreciate his work here because I'm glad we don't do that anymore. But he he tells him, you guys are missing it if you think that's still what I'm talking about. He says, No, you have been deemed righteous. Therefore, I'm actually giving you a new seal, and you are sealed by what? The power of the Holy Spirit. And he's talking about the circumcision of the heart. Because now with the Spirit, you are given a new heart. Because you're given a new destination. So he he makes that argument.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Um, and so I just think how he sets that up is just well then I think doesn't he also then ask, um, did it was Abraham righteous because he obeyed the law? Doesn't he get into those questions? Um I don't have it right in front of me. But because then even it's the next thing is that no, the law came way after. I mean, we're talking 430 years after Abraham. That Abraham was bound to no law. Only thing Abraham had was just this internal moral law that was just kind of is built into every human being of I know I shouldn't go and murder somebody, I know it's wrong to steal, or I know it's wrong to lie. Um, there is a moral code that should be kind of written on everyone's DNA. That's all Abraham had. There was nothing written on tablets when Abraham was around. And from literally uh Adam to Moses, all of those people had no written law. Yeah, there's nothing. Right. And maybe it was a verbal law, but there was something that people knew about right and wrong, yeah, but there was nothing that until Moses came along, was there anything truly written down? And so Abraham didn't have a law to obey. He wasn't raised right.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, I think that's in the first part of Romans there in 4 1 where he's talking about the law. Because at least in chapter 4, you know, he makes that initial argument that that's where righteousness is from, is from faith alone. Uses David as a backup, but then again, he's using Abraham because he knows the Jews are going to try to point to him to prove their point. And so the first thing he says is, no, actually, righteousness came before the works of the law, righteousness came before circumcision. Just like now for you guys, righteousness comes first before you receive that seal. But then he uses it as an example of, hey, Jews, you want to use Abraham as an example for your faith? Well, guess what? It's also for the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah, well, he gets into in chapter 4, verse 13. He says, It I was not, it was I can't have my glass, it was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world. So he but through the righteousness, the law is correct. Yeah. So he does get into it, he starts to break it down with circumcision, law, um, and then on down the line. But anyways, yeah, you're right. Yeah, and he even brings it up, he brings it up several times.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

He even brings it up, yeah, because the law brings is gonna bring wrath, but that all segues into okay, now let's talk about, therefore, the promise that comes by faith, it is guaranteed to all of Abraham's offspring, which by the way, is also included into the Gentile.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

That's right. Yeah, and so anyone who believes is now an heir of Abraham, regardless of whether you're Jew or Gentile.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

And so what Paul is showing the Jews is like, hey, you want to use Abraham as an example? Good, because Abraham, as the witness on the stand, tell them that guess what? The offspring that is talked about is not just the Jews, it's also the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

That's right. That and you wonder to that audience, did they know that or did they need reminded? Was this the first time they heard this?

SPEAKER_01 37:56

You know, I wonder if this is the first time they were connecting the dots. I I wonder if Paul would the way he was laying it out for them in understanding where faith actually how we are deemed righteous, then breaking down that in their mind that it had been the law, and if the Gentiles didn't have the law, they were not part of that. But now them correlating, okay, Abraham was deemed righteous by his faith. Abraham received the promise that his offspring would number all the different nations, that included the Gentiles, that they were now connecting the dots of like, oh, that's how the Gentiles are connected, that is how we are united. Yeah, and so that's why I think Abraham is such a beautiful example, and the argument as a witness that Paul's making is because it covers off the Jews, but it also covers off the Gentiles, and that's why he uses them here to explain all that.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

And I can see how the Jews that would have been some new information to them. Yeah. Uh especially if they didn't have a Paul to speak this to them in person. But then it also, that was even kind of the point I brought up at the beginning of the sermon with regards to why did Paul write the letter to the way he wrote it. There had to been something going on. There had to been a bit of an attent attention going on, especially when we find out about how Claudius kicked all the Jews out, and then finally they feel it's safe to return. Yeah, they come back to a very Gentile-run church, and they're probably thinking, Well, what about this and this tradition and that tradition? Why aren't you doing this and why aren't you doing that? All centering around law, circumcision, Sabbath, food, all these kinds of things. And so there had to be something going on in the Roman church that kind of caused Paul to dig into this so much like he did. Because even, and again, again, I like I said, you have to have a decoder ring with Paul, but even just the structure of his letter with regards to how we would structure letter, especially if I'm letting you know, hey, I'm I'm gonna be there soon. I can't wait to see you. Comes out swinging. He comes out swinging, and he's like, Look, you gotta quit cut this out, and you too, you need to cut this out, and you need to quit doing this. That's not how I'd write that letter. Um, I I might maybe either save it for when I get there or start with the compliment niceness, put the hey, by the way, and then end with the compliment. It's the compliment sandwich kind of method, but I don't know. It just it just rem it just made me believe there was something going on he was aware of that needed to be cleared up and addressed.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Well, he definitely knew there was a tension going on about the Jews returning to a church that they had not left. And we know that because Paul and the people he had met on his travels had come from the church of Rome. Priscilla and Aquila. No doubt they probably informed him. And Paul's like, you know what, this is a perfect opportunity. I've been wanting to meet them anyway. I'm in Corinth right now, I got some time. I'm gonna write them a letter, kind of address some of these things going on, but that's why he lays out his gospel so clearly. And Paul, it's it's almost you see it take place in Paul's own life, right? Because he was that Jew. Yeah, he experienced the very same thing. Right. He was the Jew that thought it was just all about Judaism, and it had to break down the walls for him to be open up to Gentiles. So you see almost how Paul had to work through that in his mind and his theology of how yes, Jesus was the one, not just for the Jews, but also for the Gentiles, and how that transformed his life. I think you see that being played out in the book of Romans. Oh, absolutely. How he had to work that through.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Yeah, and then once you, it's one of those things, once you see it in all the Old Testament, you can't not see it now. And so even he does that to them a bit, where the thesis statement in chapter one, verse 16 and 17, that verse 17, he's quoting Habakkuk. And he literally plucked, I think it's chapter two, verse four of Habakkuk. I mean, who reads Habakkuk?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

I don't even know those folks read Habakkuk, but he's going deep, Old Testament guys. I'm gonna prove this to you that it's been this way throughout all the prophets, throughout the whole testament, the whole Old Testament, that it is all pointed to Jesus, and it's all pointed to faith comes your righteousness comes from faith in God, or faith in you'll find out now Jesus. And he's showing them, he's he drops these nuggets, uh, breadcrumbs of all these Old Testament things, including Abraham and David, but he even drops a Habakkuk in verse 17 of chapter one. So yeah, he's really laying it out that this is what I've discovered, and now you need to see it too. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. You will now go, oh, how did we miss that? Yeah, which they did. They did a lot, didn't, but a lot did, even more didn't uh see it. And so, especially the Pharisees, obviously, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

But but this is how so like Abraham and Paul as he keep using him as Abraham as the example. He's the perfect example, he's righteous, again, Jews, not for what he did, but by believing. He's for all people, including the Gentiles. Then he gets to this point and kind of brings it all to this part at the end of chapter four. I just want to read it verses 18 through 25. Because at the end of chapter four, he connects what Abraham and Sarah went through to Jesus raising from the grave. That they were as good as dead. Yeah. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. And so this is what he says, he says, Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed, and so became the father of many nations, just as it has been said to him, so shall your offspring be. Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead, since he was about a hundred years old, and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but he was strengthened in faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why it was credited to him as righteous. The words, it was credited to him, were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness. For us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, he was delivered over to death for our sins, and he was raised to life for our justification.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Yeah. You know, rewinding there, they did not waver. And that's where I kind of like, but I think they did. And God's like, nope, they trusted in me. I and again it goes into this weird what we think it should look like and what and the way God sees it. But you know how I interpret that must receive faith. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's even the point here is yeah, all he had to do was trust in what God said, and that was it. That's all you had to do.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

The smallest amount of faith, even though they laughed, even though they Like, there's no way. They still had that mustard seed of faith, and God's like, watch what I can do with that. Yeah. And that's all he's encouraging. I'll even make you name your kid Laughter. Yeah. Yeah. But exactly. But like I love this point that he is bringing up to of saying, hey, they were as good as dead.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah. Literally. As we would say today, a hundred years old and ninety, having a kid. Are you crazy? Until I gave them life. Yeah. And that was deemed righteous. So Luke, you are a you have little ones. Yeah. And how how much uh energy does it take for you as a a young, you know, 27, 28-year-old young man, full of energy. You're in your prime. Yeah. How is it raising kids these days? Oh my gosh. Now, add another 75 years to your life, and could you imagine having a newborn?

SPEAKER_02 44:49

No.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

I think it's added 75 years to be 75 years old. Yeah. Yeah, no, and that's the part that that's just unbelievable. Mind-boggling. Yeah. That that they had to go through. But in all of that, I just how he connects that to like, oh, yeah, they had to be dead in order for them to bring life. To bring life. Yeah. Just as Christ was dead in order to bring life. And oh, by the way, Jews, your old tradition, it needs to die. It's dead. So God can bring you new life. Yeah. Hey, Gentiles, your old purpose, it needs to die. Why? So you can also be have new life.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

For us, your old life needs to die to now have new purpose in Christ. Correct. Yeah, absolutely. And I like how he says, as it was for Abraham to trust in God, now our trust falls in what Jesus did for us. It shifts. Still the same. It's not like we're believing in something different. We're still trusting in God. It is now for us too. And I love how the Bible is not irrelevant. It is not outdated. Just as it was for Abraham, it is now for us. And I love how literally where Paul says, as it is for us, we can literally say that for us, even today. What he was saying to them for them is the exact same thing we can say for us today. That's right. Really cool. That's great. And how the Bible is still very relevant.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

And then you ended it with five, one through eight. And the quick summary of that is he uses Abraham as the example, all to make this point of saying, Hey, therefore, this is all true for Abraham. Yep. We have also been justified through faith. Yep. And so he he reassures them that through that faith, that's how we receive peace and also in the hope of being made righteous. And so that's where he kind of lands.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

But even he goes in, he starts talking about suffering and how it gives us strength in our sufferings. It brings about perseverance and then it brings about character that's even boosts our hope even more. It helps us have hope through these sufferings, not just the long-term eternity, hope in eternity, but this hope in our suffering. And oh, by the way, the more you suffer, the more you get to live like Christ, and the more you get to be like Christ. Which was another thing that just this all of this is mind-boggling, is that going back to his thesis statement, I am not ashamed of the cross. He's not ashamed in what suffering looked like then. It's you're if you're dealing with bad things, something's wrong. If your God suffered, what kind of God is that?

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Well, those sufferings bring about greater things, which is again backwards. We so often, as even Christians today, things are going bad in our life. We start at, God, where are you? Why aren't you doing this? Or why aren't you fixing this? And what we really need to do is like, okay, God, what are you showing me here? Yeah. What are you growing me in? What am what are you getting me to be stronger for that maybe is something else bigger down the road? What do you what do you have for me in this? Yeah. That's a whole nother mindset of instead of being a woe is me and God, why? Okay, God, what's what's going on? What do we need to do here? How do I need to work on this? How are you making me stronger in this? And what can I do? Man, that is again, it's backwards to the world. Yeah. And then all of this, that was another big theme that jumped out so much is that how just what the world says, God is the exact opposite of. And it's almost like just just for a common mindset, whatever you think it ought to be, think the exact opposite of how God's going to handle it. Yeah. Whatever you think it should be or how it should be done, now stop and say, okay, I bet this is how God's going to do it. And it's going to be opposite of what you think it is. What you think it should be, he will not do it that way. He's going to take you the hard route. He's going to make it the suffering. Or he's going to do it. Whatever the world says it should be, his way is going to be completely backwards to that. And it's it's really hard for that to get through in our brains because we don't, we only know the worldly way. Yeah. But that was another big thing that jumped out to me. And I don't know what you were going to add to the whole chapter five there.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

No, though I was I was literally going to close it with this. So he now shows it's not what circumcision that makes us righteous. It's not through these works, it's only through Christ's signs. And through that we receive the Holy Spirit. And verse chapter five, five is the first time Paul mentions Holy Spirit in the book of Romans. Yep. And so he introduces the person of the Holy Spirit in five, five. And that's who he's going to talk about for the next three to four chapters. Yeah, through eight. Yeah. Is the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Five, six, seven, eight. He talks about what it looks like to live righteously through the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And that things are starting to get exciting.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Yeah, it's pretty cool. And even that just that last little part there in chapter five where he talks about, he kind of compares Jesus with Adam. Yeah. That is another unique little picture into who Adam was and then who Christ was and how Jesus being the second Adam and how the first one failed. Yeah. He was a prototype and didn't get it right. It's just like in a development process. And that speaks to me like nothing else because that's what I did for 15 years as product development. You create prototypes to test and to see if they will fail. And then you figure out, okay, it failed here. We got to fix that part. Or we got to fix this thing because it didn't work like we expected it to. It's the same, it's so weird how it was, it's very similar. Adam failed in this way. Well, that is exactly what Christ did correctly. Yeah. He did not sin, he did not waver. He always was connected to God, he never turned away from God and everything that he did, and that's what made him perfect and righteous.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

And so and that's what like I I love it. And we're gonna talk more about it Sunday, but God knew we Adam needed a helper from the very beginning, and so he sent him Eve, and he says, I I didn't find a helper suitable enough for him, so I'm gonna send you Eve. And next time he sends a helper, it's the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and so I'm I'm excited to talk about that and what that looks like. No coincidences in the Bible. No, and so that's how we're deemed righteous through the power of the Holy Spirit who leads us to Christ, but also helps us live in that righteousness afterwards. And again, that's what he talks about the next three or four chapters. So yeah, don't complicate it, don't make it harder than what it is.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

That's right. Just trust in what God says, yeah, and keep going. Yeah, it's it's wild. We don't understand that very well.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Well, man, I'm excited for Sunday. Um I'm excited to be back up there after following you and Gabe, and it's gonna be a lot of fun. But for everybody that's listening, have a great independence day weekend. Um enjoy time with the family, uh celebrating and remembering our great nation, uh, but then get your booties in church on Sunday. Uh that's our our number one.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

It's the day after that's gonna be a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

It's gonna be a tough one, but it's a big ass. We are first citizens of the kingdom of heaven, and so that's why it's gonna be a packed church because of it. Yeah, we had freedom in Christ before we had freedom as a nation. That's good. And so, yeah, come back on Sunday, gonna be excited to dive into it even more. Uh, Roger's gonna be back on the podcast next week. And so um, yeah, we're gonna have a lot to talk about. Interesting, a lot to talk about. Uh we've got things to talk about, like uh Southern uh SBC's recent decision to add what they added to their constitution about fee women in ministry. And so that's gonna be a fun conversation. Yeah, we're gonna have a good time with that. Uh we've got a lot of questions about that, so we're gonna dive into that topic a little bit more. Oh boy. But until then, until we're gonna ask you a lot of questions, so you just be ready. But until then, enjoy your weekend and go and make Kevin Crowded.