Our response to Women being Pastors | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 40

In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we discuss one of the most talked-about conversations in the Church today: Should women hold the title of pastor?

Following a recent vote within the Southern Baptist Convention regarding the role of women in pastoral ministry, we examine what Scripture teaches, why this issue has become such a significant point of discussion, and how Christians can approach it with both biblical conviction and humility.

We also continue our study through Romans 6, exploring what it means to be united with Christ, set free from the power of sin, and called to live a new life through His grace.

We dive into questions like:

• What does Romans 6 teach about dying to sin and living for Christ?
• What was the recent SBC vote, and why has it generated so much discussion?
• What does the Bible say about the office of pastor?
• How should Christians navigate disagreements on secondary theological issues?
• How can we hold firmly to biblical truth while demonstrating love and respect for one another?

Whether you're studying Romans, following current events within the SBC, or simply wanting to better understand the biblical discussion surrounding church leadership, we hope this conversation challenges and encourages you.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 40
📖 Scripture: Romans 6
✝️ Topics: Romans, Women in Ministry, Southern Baptist Convention
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well it's good to be back. Thanks for joining us for Make Heaven Crowded. Uh my name is Pastor Roger, joined by Pastor Luke, Pastor Jordan. Uh I did not get terminated. I'm I was not fired. Um and proof is in the pudding because I am back for our podcast today. I didn't think they'd let me back, but I am back.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

He's back.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

I am back. So uh today, and of course we're gonna come back, we're gonna talk about just something very lighthearted, something that's not gonna offend anyone. Later on in the podcast, we're gonna discuss women holding the role as pastors. So that's kind of the little tease to stick around. Exciting of a topic. Just something that of course is not gonna get me in hot water, any of us in hot water, uh, that nobody has a strong opinion on. But before we get to the uh main event, uh we had church on Sunday, and it was fourth of July weekend, and we thought, you know, we might have, I don't know, what, 50, 100 people, and uh that was not the case. We had two good services.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

They showed up.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Sermon could have been better.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

There's a high probability if you show up on July 5th, you're probably going to heaven.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I would agree. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

There's a high chance that you are a strong Christian.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

We had we had well over 500 people someday that are absolutely going to heaven because they went to church on the house.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

We had like over 700 people here on the side.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

There's going to be someone that comments, you're saying that church is what gets you to heaven, blah, blah, blah. No, I'm just saying if they're willing to go to church on July 5th. That's true. Sadly.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Probably has about 200 that were missing that aren't going to heaven. Say the Niango River.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

The Niangor River had some. Because I wasn't there either. The river was filled with people and floaties.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

We're watching online though. I watched a little bit. Our online views were up. People watching online. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Live. Yeah. Well, and it's like it wasn't even so you had obviously you had your sermon, which was which was nice, but it was it was just nice? It was nice. But the patriotic aspect of the service was double nice. That part was nice. Yeah. Chuck playing the national anthem on guitar.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I think Jaden put together an excellent video with Leo.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

The video was good. Leo Morgan uh doing the old rugged cross. That's not what it is. It's the old flag. What is it? Okay. Yeah. Listen. We were offstage about to go on, so I actually didn't get to listen to it. But no, it was it was a great Sunday, had a lot of good feedback. But in all of the patriotism and of course 250 years, we also got to preach on probably one of the most important passages of the New Testament.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, I would agree. So we got to talk about Romans chapter 6. And if you haven't been joining us, we've been going through the book of Romans this summer, and it really has been a lot of fun as we've been able to dive in. And which brought us to this point where on Sunday we were able to talk about Romans 6. And when we get to Romans 6, what Paul is starting to discuss and talk about, you know, he's laid this foundation of we are all equal. No longer is it Jews or Gentiles. No, God has separated us into two groups, either unrighteous and righteous. So he spends the first two chapters talking about what that unrighteousness looks like. And then how do we get over to the righteous group? And that's where Romans 3, 21 through 31 comes into play. Say, hey, only way to do it is hop on Jesus' back. That's how we get to righteousness. Then four and five is kind of like well, the only way that happens is through faith. And what does that faith look like? And how is that evident? And it and then he starts getting to this point of what it looks like to actually start living in righteousness. And I heard a pastor talking about this, and I it it made so much sense. And as Christians, we love the gospel, but for many of us, we only get half the gospel. And by that, he was talking about how we hear about yes, it's true, it's by grace alone, through faith alone, that we receive salvation and get to go to heaven. But at that point, many Christians, what they do is they put a period at the end of that. But what if it's actually a comma? And it's a comma because now, once we are saved, the back half of the gospel is that Christ did not just give us new life, he called us to live abundantly. And what does that look like? It looks like living in righteousness and the fruit that comes from that. And so what he's starting to talk about is hey, yes, that first half, what does it look like to be dead to your sin? But now what does it look like to be made alive in Christ and start living in that righteousness? And that's what he gets to in chapter six.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

So is that why there's a church in town called the Full Gospel versus the Half? You know what? I do not know.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

I feel like the Half Gospel Church would not bring a lot of people in. I don't know, but that's their name, the full gospel. That makes sense. There's some there's some funny church names that you drive by and you're like, where did they get from that? I hope the people of this church don't listen, but this is one of my favorite stories. When we were going to Kansas City and we drove by the country club church, because you know the joke the joke is always like we're not a country club, we're not a country. Well, this church was like, you know what, we're gonna call ourselves the country club. We're like, I almost was like, dude, turn around. Like I want you to put this out. And again, if or can I get in because I don't have a membership if the country club church is listening. Listen, we love the uh the uh enthusiasm. But the way to just honesty they show their cards, right? I mean, we are the country club. It was a beautiful church. It was a nice thing. They don't have to worry about giving. No, it was a beautiful church. They take membership very seriously. They do. If you do not pay your dues, you're you're out. You're out of this church. But uh so no, I mean, but yeah, I think the full gospel uh is the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, the only gospel.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

I didn't know there was a half gospel, I guess. So it's a funny name. And it's funny that it goes so far as a church will name themselves the full gospel versus a half gospel.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

Speaking of church things, I mean just like first Baptist. Really think about it. Like somebody that's not a church person growing up, they're like, oh, so First Baptist, were you first Baptist before there was a second Baptist, or did you become a first Baptist after there was a second Baptist? So then you had to clarify that you were first and they were second. Yeah. But it but if you go to others, and then what makes you first and what makes them second? But you come to Big All Great Questions.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

But some some bigger cities, some bigger cities, First Baptist is the historical church, but it's certainly not the large church. So a lot of these church a lot of these cities, like even when um in in Charleston, First Baptist Charleston is the oldest church in South Carolina, but it is a very small congregational church. And so it's just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

And you still have you also have First Methodist, first arean, first you know, there's always the they're the first one. Yeah. That's an interesting conversation. There's that. It is interesting. Not necessarily connected to Roman 6. It's very much a churchy name. It very much is. And the rest of the people of the world.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

But you go on the old back roads of Missouri, you'll find some crazy church names. They're fun. Yeah. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Well, this one's right here in town. Yeah. Full gospel. Full gospel. I like it, I like it. I like it. So apparently there's a half. I've just not seen it.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

But you haven't heard of the three-fourths gospel. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Now we're really getting into it is there a semicolon in where there should be a comma?

SPEAKER_00 6:29

Now we're really getting into some heresy. No, full gospel is the gospel. So we would agree with the name of that church.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Yeah. Which, what Paul gets to is whenever you receive that full gospel, the first step that you should take is baptism. And so when we talk about baptism, many of us, what we do, and at least for me, whenever I have somebody that I'm discipling that's going to take that seventh baptism, the text I give them is this text. I tell them, go to Romans chapter six, because Paul lays it out so clearly. But he starts off with, what shall we say then? And when he talks about that in Romans 6.1, he's referencing back obviously to what he just got done talking about in Romans chapter 5. And what he talked about in Romans chapter 5 and what we discussed on Sunday is uh 5.12 through 21. He lays out the that Adam if sin entered into the world through one man, through one trespass, so through one sin, and condemnation reached all humanity through that one man's action, which should then cause death, then by one righteous act, one act of obedience from Jesus, then righteousness and life can enter through that one man. Because I think the question comes up a lot is like, okay, can Jesus, being one person, actually die in one act for all the sin of all the world? For all the sins of the past, for all the sins of the future, but could one man in one act actually do it? And what Paul is showing them is if one man brought sin into the world, then one man can die for it all. And so that's what he's building up and showing that because through Jesus' one act, we all get to receive that grace who call upon his name. And he talks about how great that grace is and it will always overcome sin. And Paul being a lawyer, he brings up this question. He's like, Alright then, I know what you guys are thinking. If grace is so great, and it's always gonna be greater than sin, and grace is a good thing, should we go on sinning so that there be would be more grace in the world and grace may abound? And you hear him say, by no means should that be the case at all. And what he's showing them is you guys are missing it. He's also kind of like, that's ridiculous. Yeah, you're missing it. You your purpose has changed whenever you become a follower of Christ. And that's when he lays out the importance of baptism, showing them why and how their purpose has changed.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, you can even look at the chapter five where we're comparing Adam and Jesus says, Which team are you going to be on? Yeah. And that's why we kind of have that type of language of we're putting on the jersey of Christ when you step into the baptism waters. You're identifying with a team.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yep. The example I gave when I preached this past a couple months ago was imagine a firefighter saves you from a burning building. You're about to die, you're about to inhale smoke, like it's it's game over. But this firefighter swoops in, he takes you, takes you, puts you out in the front yard, you've been saved. And you ask him, I'm alive, and he says, Yes, you're alive. And you say, Oh, does that mean I can run back in the building since I'm alive? Technically, I I guess you, but why would you even ask that question? And that's kind of like, well, now that I'm saved, can I still keep sinning? Why would you want to run back in the building? Right. Well, I mean, that that you you just have been saved from something that was destroying you. You know it was destroying you, and yet you have the gall to ask, Well, what if I go what if I just go back in just for a few more minutes? Yeah. Why why would you, by no means would you want to do that?

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Well, and that's what I I use the example of Lazarus. You know, Jesus raising Lazarus from the grave. Can you imagine if Jesus would have came back into town three weeks later and Lazarus would still be wearing his dead clothes? He'd still be mummi like mummified up.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Well, I'm sure he was still pretty ticked off that he had to come back from heaven.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

Dude, have you seen that John Christmas skit? Yeah, that's gotta be hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

He probably had to take a few showers after that. Lazarus, not John Christ.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

No, but John Chris is like, can you imagine like that skit he does about Lazarus? He says, Can you imagine like Lazarus? He's up in heaven. Chilling. Just playing basketball with Abraham, Moses. Because that's what they're gonna be doing. Elijah. And he's just shooting hoops, and next thing you know, he's just he just hears a Lazarus. Uh, can you come to the door please? So Lazarus comes to the front door, and of course, John could do this, it's hilarious. Yeah. He's like, Man, we don't normally this normally doesn't happen. Normally, ever. Lazarus, we made a mistake. You gotta go back down to earth. You gotta go back down to earth. And so they said, like, but anyway, can you imagine him still wearing the dead clothes? Or the man at the pool of Bethesda, or the man whose friends lowered him down on the mat that's paralyzed, Jesus says, You're healed, get up and walk, and they still remain laying down on the mat. Yeah, I like to stay here. Yeah, can I just stay here? That's what he's saying. He's like, You are why would you choose to go on sinning? You now have new life, you have a new purpose. So go live differently.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

And even Peter in 2 Peter refers to a dog returning to its vomit.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah. And eating its vomit. Yeah. And that's what it's like. But the part I didn't get to dive into deeper on Sunday, that if I had more time, is I would want to talk about why you know, as Baptists, especially, we believe that baptism is by immersion and why it takes place after the point of salvation. And so, because some churches they reference baptism, and Roger maybe can go in deeper onto this, but so he's coming off the heels of talking about we are all born as Adam nature, sinful nature. We all have to have Christ. And so this is where I believe, isn't it, the Catholic doctrine believe that's why you need to be sprinkled to remove that Adam nature. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah, yeah. You're distinguishing from the fall, Adam and the fall in Genesis that we sprinkle to remove ourselves basically from the original fallen nature that was found in the garden through Adam's sin.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah. So and then they go through a like confirmation process um later on in life. But to me, it was like what we read here, nowhere is that evident. Right. And you know, you know, we read here, and why do we believe we baptism is by immersion? What would you use from this text to explain why do we believe baptism is true?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

I don't I don't believe I I don't know how you get sprinkling from any New Testament passage. And I mean I've asked a lot of Catholics and not just Catholics, but Protestants that believe, I mean, there's you know, Lutherans and and that and and they would concede that there's two types of baptism we don't see in the New Testament. Baptism by sprinkling and infant baptism. That I mean that's another one that we there's there's and honest Lutherans and Catholics will tell you, oh no, we we don't make a New Testament argument for infant baptism or baptism by sprinkling. Now, they're they may get their conclusions based off of scripture, but they're not going to find a proof text that shows some one of those two things happening. Um and so to me, baptism by immersion, and like that would be a question to ask Catholics. Do you believe when Jesus was baptized, was he sprinkled? Do you believe that John the Baptist sprinkled Jesus? I think most of them, if they're honest, would say no, we we believe he was baptized by immersion. And so um, yeah, I that to me, I haven't had a full like conversation on why sprinkling is is better than immersion or why it's the correct view over immersion, but I would say that there's no New Testament evidence to support that.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Well, I'm also trying to look it up, but I'm almost positive the term baptize or baptism literally means immerse.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

It literally does. Yeah, yeah, baptizo, which it literally means.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah. So again, it's and that's where I think if if somebody was intellectually honest, they would say, and granted, two Catholics uh not to go on another Catholic spiel, but to support their argument, they would say, well, we don't believe in sola scriptura, we don't believe that this is the final authority. And so they're taking the authority of of of man, of popes, of of leaders in the church, they would actually put those on the same level as scripture. So if man, elevated man says, Well, no, we believe sprinkling is is permissible, okay. Well, now you have what I would see two conflicting views, but they would actually they would say we have them on the same level. I would argue that no, you actually have man and tradition over scripture because you're you're citing over here versus uh versus the what scripture would say.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, I mean, even in just the whole New Testament invites us to copy how Jesus lived and to use him as our example, he goes to the river and gets dumped. I mean, you think we and that's why a lot of people, I think, want to get baptized in a river.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

They want to follow as closely as to how Jesus, the proxy, and for some, and for many people, like their their their uh bucket list item is to go to the Jordan River and to specifically do it exactly where Jesus went and to get that immersion in the Jordan River. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

So when you said two Catholics, I thought you were going into a two Catholics. Walked into a bar, yeah. So I wasn't really sure what I'm saying. Why the lone face? No, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

That's a horse. Yeah, that's right. This just in Southern Baptist preacher compares Catholics to horses. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters. I've listened, I do not want round two. Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

That'd be like round four at this point. Like round nine. I took a sabbatical because of that. As an example, right? Just as an example. Yeah, just as an example of I I grew up Presbyterian. They sprinkle. Yes. Or they'll kind of cup some water in your hand and hand you a towel and dump it on your head, you know. So it's not, it's not just Catholics, it's others as well.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

But like the he gets into baptism, it it's something that it's an act of obedience, number one, because Jesus commands it. And so he commands us to go and be baptized. Now, is it an act of salvation? No. Um you can go to heaven without being baptized, but it is a powerful, powerful symbol. Number one, yes, because Jesus commands it. And why does he command it? It's because it is a private decision to follow Jesus that you are now making public. It's a private decision that you have put your faith into your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and now it's you publicly professing your faith to everybody.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

You're putting your money in, and I'll say something that even might be slightly controversial, because we have a lot of people that will come to us and say, Well, Pastor, I want to get baptized, but I really I have anxiety. I don't want to get baptized in front of people. Can we just you and I, can we just do it? And the problem is, is you're making a public profession to me. I'm your pastor, I already know you've been saved. You're not professing that to anyone. And so that's why I challenge people. Well, I kind of just want to do it, you and I. Then you've completely missed the point of why we get baptized because it's public accountability to put your money where your mouth is, to tell the world, hey, I've been addicted to heroin, but guess what? Me doing this is to is me asking you to keep me accountable.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

That's right. You you are showing them, and that's the powerful part about baptism. You can't baptize yourself.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Somebody has to baptize you. Like, and you are what you're doing is you are getting baptized into the body.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I had a mental picture of trying to baptize myself.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Listen, I baptized my first year here. I baptized somebody that kind of baptized you. I was gonna think about that.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

I was like, if we could clip that video, that could be.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Well, listen, this kid who I love to death. I I'm I I love him to death. He told me he actually has a literal diagnosed phobia of water, but he didn't tell me that until he was in the water.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Is he the one that showed up in his jeans and then he joked?

SPEAKER_00 17:16

This kid got in the water and literally started shaking. Oh boy. And when I went to say I now baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, he just did it for me. It's basically yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

So I guess it's better than treaking like a demon's can be.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Well, I told his, I told his dad, I said, Hey, he's uh because he was like, Do we need to do that again? I said, No, it's good, I promise you, because it's just the symbol of went all the way under. You can't say that for all of them.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Yeah, I was gonna bring that one up, but that's great. No, it's you really can't. We'll move on. Yeah, we'll move on. But it's a it really is, it's such a powerful symbol of what has already took place in a believer. Yeah, and so you really are you're public number one, you are publicly declaring into the body of Christ, and now what that it means is they're there to celebrate and rejoice with you, but they're also there to hold you to that commitment and to keep you accountable in your walk with Christ. And so all of those are great things. But what is it also uh where do we also say that at in weddings? Right? Whenever we step up in a wedding, it's like, hey, this is a private decision to be married, to love one another, but it's also it's a public proclamation. And why do we have wedding ceremonies in front of people? It's the same way. You are saying that you are the only one for her, and she's the only one for you, and everybody there is. You're hitching your wagons together, and everybody's there to support you, help you, encourage you, and keep you accountable to that commitment. Same thing, that's what kind of is taking place in baptism, but it's also a powerful symbol in what he gets in here of what is taking place inside the believer. And so every part of salvation falls upon Jesus. Baptism is the one thing we get to do, and where it's the action of us removing the old self. It's us being able to say, Yes, I have professed, yes, Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And now I'm gonna do it by taking off the old self. I'm gonna take off my old clothes.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, but I also think you, you know, of course, that could potentially be churchy language um when we talk about because I've talked to some people and they're like, Okay, well, the process of removing my old self, and that's sometimes where they get into, okay, well, is the water special? Is the tank special? And and and that's why I think we do a good job every every baptism Sunday explaining this is Lebanon City water. Right. I mean, the the this this water has more lead in it than, you know, like we're not going to use this water as holy water because I do think even Protestants that have been in church their whole life get this idea of, okay, in order to become new self, I need to make sure of this, this, and this. And it's the symbolism that we that we try to stress. Right.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

So it really is, but like I would also there when when I say you're taking off your old self, you and to clarify that, it's just like in a wedding ceremony, whenever you leave, you're different than when you went into the ceremony. Hopefully, yeah. Because now you're no longer two, you are one. You are one flesh, yeah. And so what does that mean is your old life is no longer it's different. Yeah. Now you whatever debt you had bringing in, yeah, you're bringing into your marriage, or whatever surplus you had, you're bringing in, because now it's it's your guys' finances together. Whatever you're you know, and so like your old life is now being united, and you literally have a new life with one person.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Which is why when we were youth pastors, we would tell high schoolers all the time, hey, what you're doing now, you're someday gonna take that into your marriage. You are taking everything good and bad into that marriage because you are now one.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah, and so that's why when you come up out of that water, and the picture Paul paints here is just it is so incredible, and that's why you just have to go read it for yourself, where the water just represents that grave. And when you go underneath the water, there is a powerful thing that is happening where that old life that you lived and sin and all of that is staying underneath that water, and when you're coming up, it is literally like God is breathing that breath of life into you again, coming up out of the water in that new life that you have received, as you have that new purpose, new desires, um, and you've been made new. And literally, that is what it looks like as you're as you're putting on those new clothes. And the way I picture it is the prodigal son coming home and the father putting his beautiful tunic around the son, so nobody can see that he was eating with the pigs, nobody can smell them like they smelled like he was eating with the pigs, they don't see the holes in his clothes, they just see that perfect beautiful tunic. And that's what happens when we come up out of the water.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Yeah, and there's confusion. A lot of people think that's when you receive the Holy Spirit. Um obviously we believe you receive the Holy Spirit at the moment you trust and believe in your heart than you believe with in Christ uh as your Savior. But although we don't believe the Holy Spirit all of a sudden comes upon you like it did for Jesus when he's baptized, that was a whole nother different I guess uh ceremony going on at that moment at that time. But there is something that happens. Whether it's this mental switch that gets flipped in the brain, uh, or there is something that happens internally, spiritually, whatever it is. There is a change with most people uh after baptism. There is something that I the I do believe it does kind of change a person in a sense that whether it's that mental switch in their brain that they're now committed fully, they've put on the jersey, uh, they have chosen from one side or the other. Um I I do think there is uh something significant happens, just like you said, after the wedding, you're different. You're changed. And it's evident in just how they are and how they live most of the time. I'll also add to not only is it your public proc proclamation to the world here, it's also a pop a public proclamation to the spiritual world as well, that you have chosen a side. Uh although Paul compares it as Adam and Christ, there is a you've chosen the right side of good and evil. I I love putting it, Satan just is seeing what he just lost. Like hell hell lost another one. Hell lost another one. And it's that's although that is in a song and or a worship hymn that we sing, there's a lot of truth in that. And um even like the C.S. Lewis books, the screw tape letters, where he's talking about demons and how they work. Um the when one loses somebody, they're in big trouble. Yeah, you alright over there? What? That was my shoe. Uh yeah. I say we leave it in. No, leaving it in. I don't want to know if the mic taught it. Commercial break. Oh, what if you look up? Did you hear anything in there?

unknown 23:24

Unfortunately, no.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

Seriously? That was I'm not kidding you. I've had a mean pass out as a read. No, it was good screw. No, listen. I had an exact I had an exact thought. I'm like, do I hold it or do I just let it? And I that was that was a thousand percent on purpose. Talking about demons and screw names Lewis.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

And come on, I'm like, just keep talking.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

You watch the footage, and I just watched Jordan and he kept talking, and I'm not looking at Luke, but I finally see him in my perk for a while.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

I'm doing everything I can just keep talking. I'm just like, and then my mind. I hope that was issue as I'm talking about the screw tape letters and demons getting in trouble for losing someone. And Luke then continued on with that whole premise. And I'm like, maybe Luke is okay. He's gonna be alright.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

But he's not. I knew not to be. I knew not to look at you. I'm watching you like a like a Lawrence Taylor watching a quarterback like you just can't go. But then I see my peripheral, I see him like moving steadily, and I'm like, okay, we're good. He starts twitching. All right. So you even all that you haven't been in. You have to start back at the screw tape letters.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

No, it's over. All right. So next week we'll something happens after baptism. That's all there is to it.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

No, I actually screwed tape letters is one of my favorite books. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

But you know what I'm talking about then. Yeah, I love screw tape letters. Yeah. C.S. Lewis talks about just how there is a spiritual world side of competing for souls.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Um To me, Screw Tape Letters is the best non-biblical book for the problem of evil and suffering, of why why is there spiritual warfare? Why do things happen? C. S. Lewis, man, he's just incredible. But and it coincides with the book of Job, and and you know, you but I would encourage it could be a difficult read because C.S. Lewis was uh a pretty advanced writer, but I also think um I mean I read it when I was in high school and I had a 1.8.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

And then the current version is Nefarious that you can find on Amazon Prime. That is a play off of Screwtape Letters. Nefarious.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Is that the the movie like the scary one jail?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

No, it's not this guy in jail, uh serial killer type situation. Is it a Christian movie? Uh yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, uh-huh. I'd agree. I've heard of it, but I've never it's really good. Um yeah, but that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. Well, but it does relate to this um because there is something significant. As you see, all the examples in the Bible, when someone becomes a believer, they are immediately baptized. That's right. And I do believe that is for a reason. Yeah. Uh that don't wait. There's something, there is a connection, there's something that happens, there, whether it's that switch in the brain or something truly spiritual going on, a change. I don't believe it's coincidence that after you profess Christ as your savior and you believe it in your heart, you say it with your mouth, let's get baptized now. There's a reason. He's over there sniffing.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I can't, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

I just thought of something.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Were you sniffing, or did you find something? I thought of something earlier I was laughing at. It's nothing.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

But what we said or before we started?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Oh, something that happened on commercial break. I'm just still.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

No, we were not on commercial. We're rolling. We're leaving we're leaving that in. That's gotta get out. No, it's staying. That's all part of the fun. We're just real. So what was it?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

I don't know. Listen, I No, come on, what's making you laugh now? It literally, I'm you guys got to laugh at that. I I I was still in character mode, and then it just I thought of how funny that is. Man.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

I think we've covered Roman stuff. I wonder if that's the first time in history of any podcast. Oh no. No, probably not. And I wonder if they if the if we leave this in, if people are gonna understand.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Like that part was it's like, I don't think I've ever heard him audibly far before. Oh, now they know I haven't. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, no, I mean I I I usually am pretty pretty uh quiet about it. D like this was too, this one was I I was like, I have to do it. Yeah. I'm glad you did. I needed that today. But I mean, in the podcast you're making really good points up to that point. I'm fully sorry. There's no way I can go back to Romans 6. Like I just there's the air guy. Yeah, you're fine. There's the air guy. I'm gonna close it out pretty quick. Okay. And then somehow we're gonna get through women in ministry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

What a crap show.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Uh all right, we've got a quick fart. Short or Jaden, in all seriousness, uh that's staying in. It can't stay in. Because here's the thing that that's probably too irreverent. Like we can make fun of the. In five years of marriage, I've never farted around Caitlin, and I don't want her to get jealous.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

I mean, she's gonna assume you've done that with your friends before her.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

No, I think I've convinced her it doesn't happen. Oh about that. Okay, so you close out on Romans 6, and then I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

I'll close what with what? I'll pick up where Jordan left off. How about that? But going back to the spiritual realm, the baptism, I've heard, is it makes it.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

I'm gonna have to get away. I was just trying to look at my screen. I can't do it. I'm sorry. Well, I was good and I looked at Jordan's crack. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Middle school girls at Park.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

There's no way we're over giggling like little girls. And he's like, and in the spiritual realm.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Oh man. Oh. Jordan help us. I haven't had a laugh like that in a long time. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

That's brought tears to our eyes. That was funny.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

I needed that. If we had time, I would say like we could take a 15-minute break. I know we don't have time, so we're just leaving it.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

We can't leave it in the back. Got it. Please, Jane, I will pay you money. I don't want the comment section. I'll buy you lunch every day for however long you want.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

For a day. Okay, I'm gonna look at my Bible and I'm not gonna make up. I'm gonna look at my screen.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Okay. But speaking of baptism being a mark to the spiritual realm is I've heard it.

SPEAKER_03 29:25

Why did you watch There was nothing? I literally can't win it. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

I I can't. I'm sorry. I'm usually like, I can keep a straight face through anything. And I don't know. I don't know if it's I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

You think I can dial it back in, but I would not listen to a word you were saying. I can't.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

I was just literally staring at the I mean I can't. There's I I I think it the funny thing, I I think I could get through the women in ministry part. I don't know why that one will be easier. But the problem even with that is someone's gonna say something that is gonna make me laugh.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

But um that's why you have to leave it in, because it's gonna come back up several times throughout the rest of this.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

People are just gonna have to have FOMO.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Can I go now? Three, two, one. But talking about the power of baptism, marking the spiritual realm, is I've heard it put baptism is the bullseye for the believer. So whenever you make the decision and you're showing that and you are now telling everybody that's the purpose of your life, what it really does is just puts a bullseye on you as a follower of Christ. And because you Satan saw what he just lost, but also now you're an enemy, right? And so they're gonna be coming after you. And now that shouldn't scare you, that should motivate you to continue to live in the discipleship of Jesus and continue to grow closer to him. And honestly, the rest of Romans, that first part of Romans, as we're talking about five through uh fourteen, he talks about what it literally looks like to be dead to your sin whenever you go underwater, because when you go underwater, that you're dead dead to your sin now, that's no longer you, and you're made alive in Christ. So the first part he talks about hey, this is what it looks like to actually be alive in Christ. And because you're coming up by the Lord, this is what it looks like. But I think the part that we have a really we really struggle with as followers of Christ is being dead to our sin and realizing that that is no longer has power over us. And whenever we continue to live with sin as our master, and we don't truly die to it, and we don't live in that new life that God has provided for us, then I the the greatest example I was able to find and give was saving Private Ryan. You know, telling that story about how they all went after to save this one guy, saving Private Ryan, or saving to save Private Ryan. His brothers had all passed away. He was the only one that was remaining, and this whole team of people led by Tom Hanks, go to find him, save him. They all, most of them die, and as Tom Hanks is about to pass away, he looks at him and says, earn it. Yep, make it make this all worth it. And then it clips to him at old age, standing at his graveside, saying, I hope I earned it. I hope it was all worth it. Like my life I live my life accordingly. And his whole family's standing there looking at him like I don't understand what you're talking about. Right. And so, but why that's so powerful is no, we cannot earn salvation. But if somebody was to sacrifice their life for you and you saw it, and you could see it in their eyes, and you watched it take place, and they gave this last dying wish, you would change how you lived your life. Right? Did you ever see the video that I was like when I was younger, I was going around, it was about like this dad and his son. They worked at a a train uh where it's like a bridge, like a collapsed bridge, like where boats can go underneath it, and then so like they'd have to raise it up and then it would come down and then the train would cross over the biggest.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Oh, yeah, we played that for the youth group.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Right. You know, and the powerful part is nobody on the train knows what's going on. But the son he sees that the bridge is not down and the train is coming. Well, he goes to pull the lever to to bring the bridge down and the sun falls in. And if the dad closes the bridge, the son is gonna pass away. But if he keeps it open, everybody on the train is gonna die because the bridge is open. And so he has to make a decision. Well, he decides to sacrifice his son. Well, nobody on the train knew what was going on. Yeah, nobody on the train knew the sacrifice, except for one lady who's in the bathroom doing meth, saw it all take place, and it shows that when she saw that, she drops the needle, walks away, shows her later on how it changed her. And what that is, and going back to Priority and going back to this, is whenever we stop letting the cross be so far away from us, and we are there at the feet of Jesus when he was at the cross and we see what he sacrificed for us, and we know how much that he paid at all, we have no choice but to say, you know what, all to you I owe. And I think for the rest of my life I'm gonna live for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

And I think if we had more time, the the the idea that Paul mentions death to sin, and I think a question that many new Christians have, or Christians that have a blue flame of like, oh, this is uh I'm saved, but then inevitably they do sin, they do stumble, they do, you know, oh, I was an alcoholic for 10 years, now I'm a Christian, oh I had that one beer, oh no, now I've now I've now be I thought I was dead to sin, but it turns out sin still exists. And so I think for new believers, but all believers, it's really important that death to sin does not remove the power of sin in this world. That the only thing that will truly defeat sin once and for all will be Christ when when we are eventually with him. But death to sin doesn't mean that sin itself does not still exist. That there's a difference between sinning and living um sinfully, I would say, if that makes sense. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

It it does change the power. No longer does sin have power over you. So when you're dead to sin, it's no longer you're you're saying sin no longer has that control or power over you because no longer are you living towards death. You're not really living in the world.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

But even when when Jesus commands go and sin no more. Yeah. That to me is you've lived in a sinful lifestyle. When you walk away from that sinful life, it doesn't mean you're never going to sin. It just means that sinful lifestyle that once uh I d what was your identity, yeah, that no longer exists.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Just like again, get getting married. Your single lifestyle was your lifestyle for so long. But now once you are married, that's no longer your idea. That's no longer who you are.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And and and if you have a moment of lust in your marriage, it doesn't immediately say, Oh, marriage is dissolved, take the ring off.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

No, it doesn't mean you're gonna be a perfect husband and a perfect wife. You're still gonna make mistakes, yeah. But that doesn't mean you're not married. The covenant is still that way. Yeah, yeah. And so and the reason we can kind of because next week he goes into even more talking about slaves to righteousness and how how we can be a slave to righteousness instead of a slave to sin. And so he talks even more about how can we put those sins to death and know it no longer reign over us. Yep. So over us, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Alrighty. Romans 6, good. Steve, okay, love it. Well, then let's get into uh the debate. And this is a debate. This is actually probably uh the most recent debate. And it's the Southern Baptist Convention has been debating this for for many, many years.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah, and you call it a debate. I mean, I think it's just I don't even know if it's a debate, is it?

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Oh, I think it's a debate. I think it's Rick Warren and Saddleback Church, they literally left the SBC over the city. I don't think they left. I think they got booted down of the SBC. I think they would say that it was one of those resign or get fired. Okay, I quit type things.

SPEAKER_02 36:35

I was one of those things while you were on sabbatical that was hit the news in a major way.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

I saw Al Moeller uh I I saw his statement on Twitter.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

I heard that he had So let me if I I'll give a recap. So this past month in June, uh the Southern Baptist Convention had its annual meeting down in Florida, Florida, which is from my knowledge, I think it's one of the largest business meetings that takes place throughout, like where they actually run it as a business meeting where there's discussion and decisions have to be made and people vote and different things like that at one place. Yeah, I would imagine. So they had it um in Florida this past month, and what they uh decide on and what really started to blow up and take place, and what people are seeing is SBC makes a decision, women no longer allowed in ministry. Well, no longer, still not still not women can't be in ministries, essentially the headlines that was sweeping across everything, which we would agree that we would agree that that's a terrible headline. Terrible headline, right? And so what actually took place and happened at the Southern Baptist Convention uh to bring everybody up to speed. So back in 2000, at the Baptist Faith and Message, so as Baptist, we have our faith and message, our confession of faith, but then we have our constitution that they the convention falls under. Yeah, what we believe. Yeah, and so with the Baptist Faith and Message in 2000, it was added in there about uh women in not ministry, but women holding a pastoral office. Yep. And so that was already there in the Baptist Faith Faith and Message 2000, and what they were voting on at this one, so this is what it says in the article of the Baptist Faith and Message. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by scripture. So that's been in the Baptist Faith and Message going all the way back to 2000. What they were pushing for, led by Albert Moeller, was adding an amendment to the Constitution where it's not just in our confession of faith, but it's actually in our Constitution that same line that was in our Baptist faith and message. So now no longer is it just a part of the faith and message, they're voting it to be as part of the constitution. And I believe the way it goes is they have to vote on it and has to pass two years in a row. So it'll actually be brought up again next year, and if it's voted on and affirmed this next year, then it will go through. I think it passed like a it's like a 75, 25, or 72, yeah. Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

But I think it's important to distinguish ministry is not always pastoral ministry, is always ministry, yeah, but ministry is not always pastoral ministry. And in fact, last night for my in my Bible reading, well, I did Romans 16 where Paul introduces Phoebe. And clearly, I mean, you talk about one of the coolest m ministers in the entire New Testament, is Phoebe. You also have Deborah, uh, who she was the deaconess, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Uh Deborah was a judge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Okay, who's who was the yeah, that's right, who's the deaconess?

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Uh that is Priscilla, or not Priscilla, but that is uh uh Phoebe, a deacon. He says in Romans 16 1, I commend you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Centria.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Okay, so it's it so yeah, so she's the same one. So point being though is that you could go throughout the entire Old Testament and New Testament of women. Gotcha. Well that's what I read. So um maybe that's why I was thinking deacon, because I literally read it.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

Because in others it'll read sermon.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Okay. Other translations. And I think other translations say deaconess. But point being is, yeah, she was I mean, she was a rock star. And so she delivers the letter. So someone who says Southern Baptists are sexist because they believe women cannot be in ministry, if that's the case, then we we we're not doing really well because we've hired multiple women who are not. Well, that's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 40:21

That's a a clickbait headline whenever they're they're making that, is because nowhere. That one was all over like ABC News. Well, that's why I didn't see it. That's why I didn't see it. Yeah. And but that was a big one's push is hey, SBC votes, women are not allowed in ministry, which we would all say is false. Yeah. Right. I mean, as you just said, to be a believer is to be in ministry. Right? If you if you're a follower of Christ, God calls us all to be in ministry. That because that's the command he gives us. But there's a difference between that ministry Ryan, I want you to repeat what you said about all pastors are ministers, not all ministers are pastors. Is that what you said?

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Absolutely. Yeah. So because I would argue I would argue the person who's greeting at the front door on a Sunday morning is is a minister because their ministry actually may be more impactful than my ministry, because I've heard many people say, in fact, on the sabbatical, I went to four different churches. I won't say what church it was, but there was a church, the most impactful moment was when I walked through the front door, and this is a church outside of Lebanon. They didn't know who I was. I was John Doe, which was awesome. I walk through the door and I have a 10-minute conversation with the door greeter about just life and about what brings me here. And it was probably the most pleasant part of that entire Sunday morning. And so the idea that, okay, well, you have to be on stage to be a minister, I would say anybody that is fulfilling the role of the Great Commission in that particular morning is serving as a minister, whether you're male or female.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, that's why I'm sure some translations tell say that Phoebe was a servant of the church because she delivers the letter for Paul, so she's helping, she's serving. That's everybody helps on a Sunday morning. You should all be helping. And even just beyond on a Sunday morning, but in life you have ministry. Your ministry is to raise your kids in a Christian home. Your life, your ministry is to teach your children about Jesus. So just because it's not on stage, just you're saying, it's doesn't mean you don't have a ministry. But I I'm kind of curious because they just say specifically preach and teach, right? In the Baptist church, I think it I think office of pastors.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Which would also mean the title, which by the way, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

If we want to get into semantics, you know the term office, there's not a Greek term for office in the New Testament. Like that is never mentioned.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Well, they probably didn't have a lot of office spaces in first century Palestine. So I would say that that would probably be no phones, computers. But I've I've always heard it said office includes title. To hold the office of pastor is to hold the title of pastor. So even to refer as a woman as pastor, the Southern Baptist Convention would say, Well, no, we we would not we would not abide by that. That'd be correct.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

What I'm curious about though is we've also kind of followed along in that they that women could not be deacons as well. So are they coming off of that? Are they affirming it? Or do they say anything regarding the deacon role? From the part, and I have not read the amendment fully.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

I have no idea, I don't know about the I don't think they would, because the same argument that they would make for for women being pastors is the almost identical because in 1 Timothy uh three, Paul starts out with the qualifications of elders, he then goes right into the qualify qualification of deacons. They're almost identical in certain parts.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

I mean he says, but he separates them.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Deacons likewise are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But he starts out the very first qualification for deacons is that men worthy of respect, or I'm sorry, um Yeah, men worthy of respect, continuing, continuing. Uh and then in verse 11, in the same way their wives are to be women worthy of respect. Verse 12, a deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and household well. So that that would be very difficult. Difficult to get away. The best argument you can make is, well, hold on a second, Pastor Roger. You just mentioned Phoebe in Romans 16, and some translations call her deacon. So then why why why would translation we use on Sunday morning? So why would Paul adopt the name deacon here for a female and then over here say, well, here are the qualifications? And to me, the most plausible answer would be that for one reason or the other, Phoebe was an exception. We don't know why. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Well, but uh, nowhere in the Baptist faith and message or constitution is it talked about women being deacons. Or not allowed to be deacons.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

But it doesn't so does it neutral it doesn't say one way or the other. It doesn't say it's just not mentioned. That's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

That's why I brought it up. Yeah, you think they would include it. Huh. So then are we allowed to have female deacons?

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I think it falls upon the local the local congregation. Yeah. Which they they refer back to a lot. The Southern Baptist Convention does, is going back to the autonomy of the church. Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Yeah. But I think um in that, so when we hear this debate, and you've probably heard if if you're listening to this, you've heard the the take egalitarian versus complementarian. Those are the terms that we use. And so I really want to define these because most people think complementarian means you think women can be pastors because it's complimentary. No, that would actually be I would say for a lot of our audio audience they're hearing these terms for the first time. Okay. Well, um I've I've been asked several times, like, hey, which one would we fall under? So i if this is your first time hearing it, well, now you know you can you can use this in Bible trivia. Complimentarian means that women complement the role of pastor. And so we would believe that women can do all things in the church, um, but that pastor is a role for men. So they're compliment, complementarian. Egal, can I read the definition for that? Just a clear definition.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

All right, so complementarianism, the view that men and women are completely equal in worth, dignity, and salvation, but have different God-given roles in the family and the church.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yep. So then there's egalitarian. Egal in French means equal. And so that would be if you're an egalitarian, that would say, well, I believe women can do not only fulfill the same role of pastor, but that they they they can everything that a man can do as a pastor, a woman can do equally. And there's some churches, I know many Methodist churches will have female lead pastors. They would be egalitarians. We as Southern Baptists would be complementarians. Now, there's levels of complementarianism. Um, for example, a woman cannot be a lead pastor, but can be um a children's pastor. That that would be um a form of egalitarianism because you're saying, no, I don't believe they can be the lead pastor, but I believe they can be a pastor over those that are not men. Because Paul specifically says in 1 Timothy 2 12 that that uh it is authority over man in the church is what he commands when it comes to women. You cannot have authority over man.

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Yeah. So the egalitarianism view is this this is the definition I like it. It says the view that men and women are equal in value and equal in role, including leadership in the home in the church. Egalitarians believe that the New Testament does not permanently restrict women from serving as pastors or elders. They often interpret Paul's restrictions as addressing specific cultural problems in places like First Timothy or First Corinthians. And so really what it goes down to is egalitarianism says that women are equal in value and role, or complementarianism believes that they're equal in value but have different roles.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah, and so anyone that says, well, you know, complementarianism is a is a sexist view, it limits women. And my question would is the Trinity, the triune God, is God equal in role? Of course not. You don't pray to Jesus, you pray to the Father. You don't pray in the name of the Father, you pray in the name of the Holy Spirit. The Father did not die on the cross. And so there are certain things even in the triune God that they are equal, but they but their roles are different. And the same would be true for men and women in the world today. Men can do a lot of things, women can do a lot of things. Men can't do all things that women can do, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Yeah. Well the only thing I disagree there is you can pray to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Well, I'm saying how we would say praying to the Father in the name of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit, that even in prayer there's different roles that we that we would distinguish. Yeah, I'm not saying you can't pray to Jesus as a part of the triune God, but even if you take away prayer, um there are different roles in the Trinity. Because the Holy Spirit does not fulfill everything that the Son does or that the Father does, doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is lesser than the Father, lesser than the Son. It just means that there's different roles within the triune God. So I think that that's a good argument. That's an argument that Frank Turek makes um when it comes to this question.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Yeah. So for me, and anytime I face these questions, I just want to go back to what the Bible says. So let's just go back to what the Bible says. And because they don't want to hear our opinion, they don't want to hear Southern Baptist opinion, they want to hear what the Bible says. So the two places that people really can find this is First Timothy chapter three and then first Corinthians chapter fourteen.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Two and three.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

So uh one of you would you like to describe, or Roger, just start kicking off. Talk through First Timothy.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah, I'll start with two through three. I'll start with two twelve first. Um so he's Paul's writing to Timothy. He says, I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety. Uh and then he goes into, right after that, he goes into overseers and deacons. Um and when he lists out the the uh qualifications of a a overseer, which we would call a pastor, uh the the first two things he mentions are number one above reproach, number two, the husband of one wife. Um and so clearly Paul is is he doesn't say a husband, it doesn't say a a a spouse of one spouse, he would say a husband of one wife. That's the second qualification of a pastor that Paul gives. So that's the first Timothy two and three passages.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

He doesn't say they in any of the he always says he must, he must, he must.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

The pronouns very much are male, yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Yeah, and so I think one of the pushbacks people have, and I'm I'm just gonna play. Yep, devil's side. So first and first Timothy, well, isn't he right into a specific context? Sure. So like isn't that what he's addressing there, the Church of Ephesus that Timothy's overseeing? Isn't that why he brings it up? So it's a culture thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:29

This is this is the the the number one argument, and and the the verse that they would use to support is he says, uh talking about women must be silent, and we would agree that Paul is writing to a specific audience of is he saying that women cannot speak at all? No, there were women that were going into the church, they were preaching false gospels, they were giving false prophecies, they were interrupting services, they were being extremely um detrimental to the gospel being shared. And Paul is saying to that specific group, saying, You must remain silent, because later on he says, he tells women, when you prophesy, this is how you prophesy in church. Well, the only way people prophesied in the church was vocal prophecy. So he clearly he's not making an absolute you cannot say any word at all, because then he would contradict himself.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Or even it goes a little further in in basically one of the interruptions was women not understanding, and they'd ask a question in the midst of what's going on in service, and he basically says, Ask your husband later.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

It would be the equivalent of you and I, or in any three of us, preaching a sermon in the middle of it, someone would say, Hold on, I got a question and getting on stage.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

What does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Exactly. You said this, and and that would not be the appropriate thing. So uh an egalitarian would say, Well, okay, Roger, in one breath, you said that he's writing to a specific audience over here, so why can't that be the entirety? And the reason is is when he gets to the the the the the fulfillment of this passage in verse 14 is that he doesn't rely on a cultural argument. He doesn't rely on the authority of what's going on in that local community or in that local church. Who does he go to? He goes back to Genesis chapter 1, Genesis chapter 2, he goes back, he uses the authority of creation. And he even says, when Adam was created, Adam needed a helper that was suited for him, which was Eve. It didn't mean Adam was greater than Eve, it just meant that God had a different role for Eve. And when Eve sinned, Adam was the primary, I mean, Adam was the one that that bore responsibility for that sin. So he goes right back to creation to make his argument. He doesn't go to culture or to society or to the mores of the church of what's going on in that in that village. He goes back right to the very beginning of scripture.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

And again, it's not make saying that they're not equal. When God created man, God created them equal. Yeah. They they have that equal worth, dignity, equal way to get regain salvation. But even in creation, he gave them different roles and creation. Yeah, and he gives us different roles when it comes to our household. There's roles for the husband, there's roles for the man as being the head of the household, then there's roles for the women that are in the household. Does that make one role more important than the other role? No, they're just different. And so he laid That's controversial today.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Well, in society, but scripture it's not. But what's interesting to me is, and Jordan would know this more than you and I, were gender roles in the household controversial 20, 30 years ago the way they are today?

SPEAKER_01 53:18

No.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

I don't think they were. And of course, I wasn't alive in the 1960s, 1970s, but like hearing my grandparents talk who weren't overly religious, like they didn't go to church every Sunday, but it was a well-established fact in Western culture that men and women are very distinguishable in the household. And it wasn't until like 15 minutes ago that we started arguing, well, wait a second, no, men and women can actually do the exact same thing. Men can be mothers, women can do this, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

I'd say it started to blur when more women went into the workforce instead of being at home. Uh that happened a lot in the 80s, 70s and 80s. That started to shift. Yeah, more than that. That was a huge cultural revolution. Yeah. But even then growing up, it was always strange when a a when someone got married and the wife did not take on the husband's last name. It was still a little like, hmm, I wonder why.

SPEAKER_00 54:05

Yeah. That's a little weird. And it's kind of the same thing. And here's my prediction, and it my here's my cultural prediction. In 50 years, I I don't think it'll be 99% of women taking the last name of men. I I think the way that it's looking, I think it's going to get to a point where it's it's a it's mix and match, where sometimes the husband takes the last name, sometimes the wife. And I and I'm like, I'm not saying that facetiously. Where else can we go in our culture of just completely decimating what it means to be a father and a mother, and people will say, well, Christianity is sexist because it says women's need w women need to submit. And again, these were not controversial discussions just not very long ago in modern history.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

I mean, I we joked with a long time ago, worked with a gal, she had such a dominant personality. When she was getting married, we joked and asked her if her husband was going to take her name. And she even laughed at that and did not believe that that should be the case, but just because of her dominant, very overwhelmingly dominant personality, we joked about that with her.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

But it was funny. Well, yeah, but I but some people probably think I'm Roger Herman because I'm in the same year. Well, like what you're getting at is we we blur the lines. God does not blur the lines. No, right. Like he he's very clear from the mono of creation, there's a role for the man, there's a role for the woman in the household. There's a role for the husband, there's a role for the wife. And he's very clear in how he spells that out. And just like he spells it out for the household, he spells it out for the church as well. There's a role that's reserved for man, there's roles for the women. That doesn't make one more important than the other. It's just we we just have different roles.

SPEAKER_00 55:38

Yeah, and so and I I will even say this please don't hear that I would argue that women are incapable of doing any of the quality outside of being a husband of one wife. That one's difficult. But I would say that women, when you look at this, can do all of these. There's no question that a woman can't be above reproach. There's no question that a woman can't be self-controlled or respectable or hospitable. We're not saying women are incapable or even unqualified to do those things. Because I believe there are many women that I know in ministry that can probably do some of these things better than most men I know. It's not an issue of qualification or capability, it's an issue of roles that have already been ordained by God in his word.

SPEAKER_01 56:18

Yeah, and then you can even go back and look at say that like I mentioned before the podcast, the Church of Philippi was made up of Lydia, the merchant, the demon-possessed girl, and the jail the jailer. There's only one man in the mix of those three who founded the church of Philippi. And it's in the house, Lydia's home, that the church resided in. So does that mean that Lydia and the the foot nobody knows her name, they just call her the demon-possessed girl. Um, did they have no role in the services of the church as they met in her home? No, I mean, I'm sure she had a very active role in everything that went on. Was it only the jailer that spoke a prophetic word? Probably not. I mean, it's hard to say. We weren't there, but there's examples like that that start to kind of, I guess, just make you wonder and even question well, what about this example or that example, or the Phoebe example, or even Priscilla and Aquila, Paul, uh, Paul's two best friends that were also tent makers were from the Church of Rome. He meets them in Corinth. They stay back to help with the Church of Ephesus and even getting Apollos in line to understand the full gospel of everything that he was basing all his understanding on John the Baptist's understanding. Uh, but even Priscilla and Aquila, they were very much involved in the Church of Ephesus. So none of it's saying that women are not.

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Well, I would even say if Paul was living in 2026 and he wrote The Church of Lebanon or the Church of FBC, and you read that letter, Tori may be in that story just as much, if not more, as me, you, or you, yeah, because of the role that she plays in this church, which I would argue is just as important as anything that we do, right? Because it's our it's our early generation. It does it's not an in it's not an argument of inferiority. No. And so that is where anyone that hears this and says, Well, I'm a woman, but I can't do this, this, and this. No, I believe you you you have the ability to do anything, but when it comes to the role, that that is really where we focus on. And this is where we can, you know, uh well, but this is before I get to that, I'll be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

This is where you can say like if you go to a church that undermines your role as a woman in ministry, like in serving your church and what you do, and they undermine that and they use this passage to make themselves seem more better than you or more powerful than you, you need to find different things. They're abusing the text, yeah. They're abusing the text. Like, this should not be a knock to anybody. Yeah. I mean, and that's why when people ask, like, well, can women be pastors? I I just go back to what scripture says. And the Bible says, No. Like that role is just reserved for man. That doesn't make me better than you. I have the same Holy Spirit that she has, and the Holy Spirit can work through her as he works through me. I just have to fall back on what the word says when it comes to that role, that role, and they have their role, and I have my role, and we just gotta follow that.

SPEAKER_00 59:00

Yeah, and I think if to make a football analogy, you look at your roster and you have the best left tackle and you have the best quarterback, you you're never gonna put your left tackle in a quarterback or your quarterback in a left tackle because that's not going to work. And so it doesn't mean that one is better or the other. You need both of them to succeed, and both of them by themselves are incredible athletes. But the idea of, oh, well, in order to be equal, I need to let my left tackle play quarterback every once in a while, or vice versa, that that that's a recipe for disaster.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

And that's where like I I I go back to this as well. People can read this, and I think if they're reading it with a cultural lens, they will take it as a what's a right word? An insult or downgrading, like I don't even know what to say. Like a slight. Yeah. And I don't that's not what God's trying to do here. I even view it now, even from a dad's perspective. I see I see God even protecting his daughter. Like I I we guys talked about this past the past month, just in ministry, how hard it's been, how many deaths we've had to go through, things that we've had to walk through with families. It's not saying women couldn't do that. But I tell you right now, as as a dad, I wouldn't want my daughter to go through any of that. The emotional, the mental, the heaviness, the heaviness that it was through. Like, and so I'm even reading that as like, my golly, like Yeah, it it's even an act of protection.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Male and females process that type of stuff and they respond to it very differently, too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

But the the other important thing I I would point out is it says um authority over man. And so one argument that I'm not entirely convinced of, but I I think is a really good argument is okay, if women cannot be lead pastors, a children's pastor does not have authority over men. A children's pastor would have authority over children. A student pastor would have authority over students, and so um I think there are uh women pastor would have authority. A women's yeah, female pastor would have authority over female. So I I'm actually I think there's intriguing arguments to say differ from the Southern Baptist Convention. Probably so because the Southern Baptist would say no titles, period. And I'm saying, okay, the way I read the text, taking away my denominational hat, because I'm very Southern Baptist, but like when I read that text, to me, we are specifically speaking of lead pastors. And of course, 2,000 years ago, there wasn't a children's wing of the church in Corinth, right? I mean, and so it's very, very different. But that's where I would be a little um agnostic, I guess, of I'm willing to have my mind changed.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

Is that what Rick Warren was arguing?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

Yes. Yeah, Rick Warren said I be being of course he's the lead pastor, I think they had a female associate pastor. But he even said her role is not an authority role over men, it is it is something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

But it's even just the idea of why can't we then give titles to the children's pastor or the youth pastor? Those I don't want to say lower roles, but not senior roles. Yeah. They're more of that associate level. Why in again, why would they be so staunch and not even allow it there?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:54

Because the the argument that they would make is in 1 Timothy 3, overseer and elder, these are all the lead, these would be the ones that have authority over church. So when he says husband of one wife, he isn't speaking of a student or a children's director because that language wouldn't have existed 2,000 years ago. He's speaking of those that oversee the church, and specifically the overseers and the elders were the ones that were teaching on Sunday, not just to a portion of the church, but to the entire church. So I think that's I think it's a good argument.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Trevor Burrus, Jr. But since it's different now, why wouldn't the uh Southern Baptist Convention then allow that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

I think sometimes as Southern Baptists um we can be very stubborn. Um and honestly, like I'll say this, because again, I'm I'm very Southern Baptist. Um I I hate how we handle the Rick Warren situation. I think Rick Warren is one of the best representatives of Southern Baptists that this century's ever seen. I think what he has done for the Lord. Um, and if you listen to his preaching, he's not some liberal. Like, I mean, the guy preached it. Although he's from California. Even though he's from California, but he has a conservative theology. I remember when when my man Albert Pools went and guest spoke at Saddleback Church, and he got reamed, and the ain't they protested the angels because they were letting Albert go and speak at this far right wing conservative preacher. Rick Warren's theology, I would argue, is very solid. He has done more for the Southern Baptist Church than almost any human in the last, I would argue, 500 years. And I saw how those hearings went and how they ganged up on him, and I thought, yeah, this is this is the part of denominational church that I can't stand. So that's me being probably too honest. But I think that sometimes someone makes an alternative argument, and Southern Baptists sometimes we can say, nope I'm not gonna listen to it. Yeah, so yeah, that's my soapbox on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Yeah, it's difficult in our day and age.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

So conclude fit with our culture. Sorry. And as we usually do hot bun topics, we I mean, we we we've given 30 minutes to something that four hours would be.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

And just as that doesn't fit with our culture, neither neither does the Bible in general.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

So it is very countercultural. Jesus was very counter-cultural, that's why they hung him on a cross.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

But I'm appreciated the Bible, it is living and active. And I mean it's it's still alive today. And that's why when it comes to this stuff, my suggestion for anybody is well, just go back to the Bible, what the Bible says. Don't don't take our culture and what we have going on, bringing it into, don't take the SBC and what they say about it or your denomination. Go to the Bible and very clearly, what does it say? Because to me, this is a black and white issue. When you understand the context of Timothy, no. Like it is. When you understand the context of Timothy, you understand the context of 1 Corinthians, which we haven't even got to dive into, you uh understand more clearly, like, hey, why can't women be pastors? That's what that's what the Bible says. I mean, that that's all we have to fall back on. Now, what does that mean? Can women be in ministry? Absolutely yes. Can women lead ministries? Yes. Can women teach women to yes? Can women teach children? Yes. Can women serve on staff? Yes. Can women use their spiritual gifts because they're empowered by the Holy Spirit? Absolutely yes. Can women serve as the office of elder or pastor? No. Based upon what scripture says. But does that mean that doesn't diminish their role in what they are doing? I think it actually upholds them and empowers them. Does that diminish the work of the Holy Spirit inside of them? Absolutely not. And so that's uh that's where I'm at on all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

Yeah. And this is the last thing I'll say on it. I know we use the term primary and secondary quite a bit. This is very much a secondary issue. And so when we have these conversations and we can disagree, and there are Southern Baptists that 100% disagree from beginning to end. I mean, they would be egalitarian. And there are non-Southern Baptists that are very much complementary. And so these are conversations that we can have coffee over. We can we can sit down at the dinner table and have these conversations, and it's not going to affect your eternity or my eternity. So that's, I know some people get so fired up, and literally there are people that have left church entirely because of this issue. And my response is don't let Satan win by letting something like this, which in the grand scheme of things is not a big deal when we're talking about salvation. Don't let that become your golden calf or your excuse to say, well, that's why I hate church, that's why I hate religion.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:07

So it's an easy one though to make it that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

It can become that real quick. I want to have a conversation about praying to the Father, praying to Jesus. That's that's a great We'll do that next week. Hey, he gives us access to the Father. So in the name of Christ Jesus. But in the Lord's in the Lord's Prayer, he starts out when you pray, our Father, you start out. So I would say we don't play to pray to Jesus, we pray through Jesus, is what I'm praying. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

But in the we end it with in the name of the name of Christ Jesus. We pray this because it's through him that we get the access to bring our prayers to the Father, and Jesus is then advocating, and the Holy Spirit is praying on our behalf in the midst of all that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:45

Dear Jesus, or uh, you know, when they pray. So it yeah, I but th go uh not to go back to that. But the point being is that even in the prayer, we would say that all three uh all three roles of the triune God are are playing something that is slightly different but not identical.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Aaron Powell But then I'd even wonder I even ask if when Jesus says all power and authority has been given to me in heaven and earth, why couldn't we appeal to him for our needs?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:11

I certainly don't think if you if you started every prayer with dear Jesus, um, I don't think like the Father is gonna say, no, that doesn't make it. No, I think I think you prayed to God and he sees your heart. Yeah. Um so anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

Well no, they're obviously although they're three distinct, they're still one. Yes. And when you are praying to one, you're praying to all. You are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

So but whole point being same same God, different roles within the Godhead, within the triangle God.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

So I see where you're your perspective of that. Yeah, totally agree. Okay. That's right. For all of us, fix your eyes on Jesus, rely on the power of the Holy Spirit, trust that He has given us different roles that empowers us, not degrades us, and follow his word. It's that simple. There you go. That easy enough. Right on. Anything else you need to add?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:57

I think it's I think it's all been said. Did we cover everything? I've got a meeting with I've got a meeting with a with a bathroom stall. It smells funny up here.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

Here we go. All right, do you want to close it?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

Let's close before we get back into that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

We need a director's cut. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode. If you haven't got the chance to join us on a Sunday, you need to join us on Sunday at 9 or 10 30. Um, until we meet again next week on the podcast, go make Kevin Crowding.