Make Heaven Crowded

Revealing the Truth about Predestination | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 44

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we dive into one of the most challenging and debated doctrines in all of Scripture: predestination.

Walking through the second half of Romans 8 and into Romans 9, we unpack Paul's teaching on God's sovereignty, election, and salvation. What does it really mean to be predestined? Does God choose who will be saved? Do humans have free will? And how should Christians approach these passages with humility and faithfulness to God's Word?

We explore questions like:

• What does Romans 8 teach about predestination?
• Why does Paul discuss God's sovereignty in Romans 9?
• How do God's sovereignty and human responsibility work together?
• What do the words "foreknew," "predestined," "called," "justified," and "glorified" mean?
• How should Christians navigate different views on predestination?

Whether you've wrestled with these passages for years or you're reading Romans for the first time, we hope this conversation encourages you to trust God's wisdom, marvel at His grace, and find confidence in the gospel.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 44
📖 Scripture: Romans 8:28–39 & Romans 9
✝️ Topics: Predestination, Election, God's Sovereignty, Free Will, Romans, Salvation, Theology
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_00

Well, thanks for joining us for another episode of Make Heaven Crowded, starring Pastor Roger, Pastor Luke. Pastor Jordan has been terminated. He is gone and uh he is now starting his own church. I'm just kidding. Jordan is uh I don't know where he's at. He's on vacation. He's on vacation, yeah. He's on vacation. So Jordan will be back next week. Uh he his uh he's enjoying family time, but this means the Luke and Roger show.

SPEAKER_02

Um, this takes us back to the old office days. Man. When we shared an office, they're gonna just get an insight on what we got to talk about for years up there when we shared an office.

SPEAKER_00

We should have picked a more divisive topic that we disagree on, because then that would probably be more fun.

SPEAKER_02

What was the name of our old office? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00

Uh I do. I do remember it, yeah. Do you want to re-record that? Yeah, let's re-record it. Thank you for joining us. This is the Make Evan Crowded Podcast, take two, starring Pastor Roger and Pastor Luke. We were just talking that Pastor Jordan's on vacation, which means that um we this is we're already on take two and we're like five minutes in. So uh we were just reminiscing on old youth pastor stories that that one may not be good for television. So uh today we are going through yet again the book of Romans, and you had the back half of Romans chapter eight.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um by the way, I'm so mad at you. Why is that? Because you left me such a huge passage to go through in one service.

SPEAKER_00

So the fact that I went over, I'm blaming you for the fact that this is where you and I are different preachers, though, because and and I you I've heard you say this before. Yeah. Like you feel that you have to cover every jot and tittle of the section that you have. I've done passages before where I have a huge chapter, and it's like, you know what, I'm just gonna take the main theme and I'm gonna break down the verses surrounding that theme, but I don't feel like I have to go all the way because the goal of it is like, hey, you go and you read it as well. And then if there's parts that I didn't I wasn't able to cover, see, but that's because you're smarter than me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. For me, I just let just let Paul speak for himself, and that's why I feel like I have to go through it all because there's such good arguments.

SPEAKER_00

Well, then you're gonna keep going over. Like that's just you got you can't have your cake and eat it too. Uh the good news though, as we've said a lot, is like this area of Romans is so easy to preach, in my opinion. Yeah. Um, and so you, of course, we always do the director's cut. You preached uh pretty extensively on that second half of Romans 8. Um, but there were still some parts that maybe you didn't get to cover uh.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I feel like we went really deep during the message and I got to cover everything I wanted to in Romans 8, 18 through 27. Um, but once we got into Romans 28, 28 and thereafter, I kind of had to speed. Uh I looked up at the clock and I'm like, oh, I'm already at time, and I still got 11 verses left. And uh so instead of a calling an audible, I just sped through it. And so we got to dive in a little bit deeper into those. But the whole thing leading up, and again, Paul, he's talking about what does it look like to live a righteous life? He's getting to this point where he's talking about um what it looks like to live according to the Spirit. And he starts off with in Romans talking about, for there's no condemnation. Why? Because we've been adopted, we're heirs, we receive an inheritance, and we've been given the deposit of the Holy Spirit of what is to come. And Paul gets to this point where he's saying, yes, that glory that we're going to receive, it doesn't make us immune to suffering that we're gonna face. And I think that's a major thing that he addresses here is like, okay, if Christians, if we follow Christ, isn't our life supposed to become easier or isn't it supposed to become better? And I think there's an old saying that's really good that being a Christian doesn't make life better, it makes you better at life. And so just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're gonna be immune to suffering. You're still gonna go through suffering, but we just have a different perspective of that suffering. And Paul, that's what he's addressing here in Romans 8. And honestly, it's why it's one of my favorite sections of scripture because this was my testimony. Like whenever I was going through the time where I really came to Jesus, this was my passage that I would cling to is Romans 8, um, 18 through 39. And so that's why, like, you know, it's I'm very passionate about it because it is something that we all go through as suffering suffering as Christians. And so he dives in deep into Romans 8, talking through, hey, this is what it looks like to suffer. And he doesn't minimize our suffering, but what he does try to do is change our perspective of the suffering. So he starts there in the first part of Romans 8, 18, and he talks about, hey, our suffering, it's it's gonna produce a future glory that is to come. And he uses some specific illustrations of what that's going to be like. And, you know, he starts off, number one, um, talking about, hey, there is suffering, and he dates it all the way back to Genes 3 and what happened and everything that's going on in the world. That's it's just showing that creation's groaning to be restored back. And I teed you up in our next sermon series of we're gonna dive more into that in the Defend Your Faith sermon series that is coming. People need to get signed up for Frank Turk. Um, and then uh he does then he uses the analogy okay, suffering does produce glory. He uses number one the example of childbirth. Uh we dove into that, and then number two, the analogy of adoption of hey, when you adopt a child, uh you pay for them, you sign the contract, and although they are already yours, until they start living in your home, they're not there yet. And so you have that down payment and what takes place, but yet they are still suffering until they are finally home. Um so he uses the adoption analogy, and then he gets to this point in verse 28. And now I think this is where it starts to really get, as I would said in the message, juicy and spicy because it's good stuff. Um, but this is where I think we can dive in more. And he gets to this point in 28, 29, 30, where he starts talking about how God finishes what he has started. And the whole, I would say, major theme of Romans is God is fulfilling his promises, and he's gonna do it within their lives, and that's the gospel that Paul is sharing. And he gets to this point, like, even though we are suffering, God's gonna finish what he started. What he started inside of you, what he started in this world, it's going to come to completion. And this is where I think we talk about there's differences when it comes to Calvinism, Armenianism, different things like that, that we can dive into these terms and what they mean. So this is what he says in 28 through 30, he says, and we know that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters, and those he predestined, he also called. Those he called, he also justified. Those he justified, he also glorified. So, Roger, what say you? Um, dive into that. So he talks about how God foreknew, he predestined, he called. So wouldn't that support Calvinism?

SPEAKER_00

So a couple things real quick. First off, I think foreknowledge, you've got to define foreknowledge. What does that mean? It means that God knows, God is omniscient, which means he's all knowing, which means that he knows the entire um story of my life, he knows your life, he knows who will and will not accept Christ. And so, because if he didn't, he wouldn't be all-knowing. Um, now, knowledge does not mean causation. Uh, the analogy, there's a several analogies I give. But if if I have a child and my child is rambunctious and what the stove is turned off, but it's hot, and he wants to touch the stove, and I say, no, don't do that, no, don't do that. I know that him touching the stove is gonna have a negative outcome. It's gonna hurt his finger, he's gonna cry. Um, but finally, after the 15th or 16th time of stopping him, I allow him to touch the stove. I foreknow what's going to happen, but I'm not forcing his hand on the stove. Now, what happens? He touches the stove, ow, he gets a blister, and guess what? He never touches the stove again.

SPEAKER_02

So, can you say that God can foreknow, but also free will still be present?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, yeah. And so the terminology again, knowledge does not mean causation. I knew that my child's finger was gonna have a blister. I knew that my child was going to have a sharp burn, but I did not cause my child from touching that stove. So God has divine foreknowledge, he knows what's going to happen, but God's knowledge does not take away any choice that I make. Every choice that I make is of my own accord. Um, just because God knows what that choice is going to be doesn't mean that that choice was predestined.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, man, that's what I even went into the definition on Sunday of talking about how God chose to love us before the foundation of the world. That not he's not talking about really foreknowing our decisions here in this passage, but it's about the covenant love he would do anything for that love. So, like from before the foundations of the world, before we were even created, he already knew he was going to love us. Um, just like you know, when I found out we were having, you know, our our baby boys, Duke and Judge. And when I found out, I knew that there was nothing that they could do that make me not love them. Like I I was gonna love them no matter what decisions they made, no matter what mistakes they made, no matter what they went through, I was going to love them with everything that I had. And just as I can foreknow that as a father, earthly father, how much more can our heavenly father do that and our decisions and everything like that? And so he already foreknew he was gonna love us no matter what decisions that we made, and he already foreknew that he loved us so much that he was gonna send his son to die for us and provide a way for us to spend eternity with him. Yeah. Um, but then he uses another word, so foreknew. Any more you want to talk about on that?

SPEAKER_00

Um, we could we can leave it at that for now, but I think again, the idea, because even Paul says when you get into Romans 9, um, he grieves for the loss. He says in verse 2, I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. And we see Jesus do the same in the Gospels, where Jesus clearly has a desire for all to accept him. I mean, John 3 16, for God so loved the world, he gave his one only son, for whoever so believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. It is all. And then I love um when you get into Romans 10, and I know we're kind of skipping ahead a bit, but I want to go here just to go back to Romans 9, where Paul says, um, no difference between Jew and Gentile. This is verse 12. Romans 10, 12. The same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all. It doesn't say some, it doesn't say only those who are predestined, it says all who call on him. And then verse 13, what's the conclusion? For everyone calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That to me would seem like a death knell for the idea that God predestined that when he made Luke Winfrey, or let's not use you, let's use somebody who doesn't accept Christ. He knew them in the womb, he loved them, he counted the hairs on the head, and he snapped his head or snapped his fingers, you're going to hell. That to me would be a contradiction of God's true sovereign love. Now, again, don't contradict sovereignty with love. God can be all-sovereign and all-loving. Um, but I think that this Romans 9 is usually used as the proof text for Calvinists to say, okay, what about elect? How can you prove, or how can you show that you are elect if God did not predestine you? And of course, we would say anyone who accepts Christ becomes the elect. That when we accept Christ, we now enter into adoption, right? If God adopted us against our will, that can't be love. Why? Because love by definition must be freely given. And so the adoption process is a choice, right? It is a it the father, um, he wants us to be adopted, but in order to truly adopt us, we have to want to be adopted. I would use the and the literal analogy of adoption. If you go to an adoption agency and there's uh a young boy or a young girl that you you love, you want to adopt them, but you realize through the preliminary adoption process, they despise you. They do not want anything to do with you, they beg. I want any other way. I do not want this to be my mom and dad, please. Would the loving decision say, no, I choose you, you're adopted, get in the car. No, that no, that would not be the loving decision. It has to be freely given and freely received. And so the idea that I'm elect, I am an heir or co-heir with Christ, um, there is a role of agency that prior to becoming that adoptee, I can choose to say, no, thanks, that's that's not for me. Because once I become adopted, my names change. Well, I like my old name. My my um, you know, behavior to an extent should change because I now have the Holy Spirit. Well, no, I don't want that. Okay, then God has no choice then to say, have it your way. So that's kind of my whole spiel on when it comes to the elect, that we are the elect because we put our faith in Christ, but it is our free choice to to embrace and to call him the Lord of our life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so what would that how would you explain predestined through that lens then? Because Calvinists would say, hey, certain I we won't just isolate Calvinists, but people hear that predestined, and they make it sound like, oh, God has already chosen who is going to be going to heaven and who is not.

SPEAKER_00

So pre I believe in pre- and that's why when people use the argument predestination versus free will. I actually I don't like those terms because it's like when someone says pro-life, pro-choice, I'm both. I'm pro-choice. I I mean I I believe in abstinence, I believe in adoption, I believe in motherhood, I believe in all kinds of choices. I just don't believe in murder. I don't believe in your choice. So I'm pro-life and pro-choice. In the same way, I believe in predestination and I believe in free will. The difference is that predestination, we destin ourselves. God knows what our destination is by our own accord. I'll use another analogy because this stuff can get so confusing, you almost have to use analogies to make it make sense. But I'm I'm obviously an Atlanta Falcon fan, and week one of every year, the Falcons always play at noon because we're not good, so we don't get night games. But we play at noon. Well, what do we always have week one of football season here at FBC? What's always going on that year?

SPEAKER_02

Community.

SPEAKER_00

Community day. Always, week one, right? It's what the it's the only day of the year I still have some hope in the Falcons because we haven't played yet, and I never get to watch it. So what do I do? I always record it on my uh on my TV and we do community day. I usually get home about three o'clock, the game is over. The problem is everyone in this church knows I'm a Falcon fan. So what happens when I'm walking around community day? Have you seen the Falcons score? No, they're up by 10, or inevitably, oh, the Falcons lost, and blah, blah, blah. So I know the end result. I know it, I know what's going to happen. I watched the game. I still don't know every play. I don't know. I know the outcome, but I don't know the players are still on their own accord. They're still playing the game. Me knowing the final score, me knowing that the Falcons lost, doesn't do anything for the agency of the players. It doesn't intervene. You can't say, well, Roger, because you know the final score, therefore you're dictating what's happening on the TV. No. God knows the final score. God knows the consequences and the benefits of choices that we make, but God doesn't make those choices for us. We're not robots in which God is just controlling. You know, I think sometimes when I when I talk with Calvinists, it's almost like God is playing a video game, and we're the little AI characters on the screen, and and and God is the one controlling us, and we're just vessels that God is and there's no free will whatsoever. And that to me is just an absurd belief. So I believe in predestination. We we predestine ourselves because God knows what the end result will be, but it's still 100% our choice.

SPEAKER_02

What we're saying is can there be foreknowledge and free will? Yes. Can there be predestination and free will? Yes. Yes. And that's what like when I hear predestination, like my little brain immediately goes out to let's let's break down the word. You know, you have pre, then you have destination.

SPEAKER_00

Pre meaning before. Yeah. Destination means where we are going. Correct. God has knowledge of predestination. He does not cause. And that's where the terminology that I always use, knowledge does not equal causation. And again, if that's too confusing, just remember my son touching the stove, I knew beyond a shadow of doubt. I knew that him touching the stove would not turn his fingers icy. I knew because I knew the temperature of the stove. But my knowledge did not cause him to touch that stove. In fact, I tried to cause him not to touch that stove, but on his own accord, he did touch the stove.

SPEAKER_02

So whenever we choose God, and because he has chosen us, whenever we choose him and decide to enter into a relationship with him and become his child, we are now adopted. Our destination is set to go to heaven. We are going to receive that new body that's being restored back to the original image of the way it was supposed to be. That is our destination. That's where we're going. But we are not there yet. So since we know that is our destination, we would say, Oh, then God has then predestined us to be in heaven, predestined to give us those new bodies and what it's going to look like. And that's how we get that predestination. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And on this topic, I think, you know, the difficult question is, okay, can God see evil before it happens? Yes. Because he's omniscient. Can God prevent evil as it's happening? Sure he can. Then why doesn't he? If God is able to prevent evil, because if you say God is unable to prevent evil, then you you don't worship a God power enough for powerful enough for me. You don't worship a God powerful enough to raise his son from the dead. If God is truly all-powerful, omnipotent, then God can prevent evil. God can prevent suffering, then why doesn't he do that? And that is the that that's probably the most common, the oldest, and arguably the most effective argument against Christianity that has been made for centuries. But I think the answer is easy. I think of tragedy that's happened in both of our lives. I think of Rudy. Um, I think of my dad. Could God have allowed my dad, could God have intervened and removed the cancer from my dad? Absolutely he could have. Could God have blessed my dad to live 95? He absolutely could have. And yet, in my dad's freedom, would my dad have been more likely to turn towards Christ in his state that he passed versus living a few extra years and dying maybe in a little more comfort, right? Um, would he have been less likely to accept Christ in the latter? The answer is yes. I mean, he are he would have been less likely to accept Christ. Rudy's case, are there people that know Jesus today that wouldn't otherwise know Jesus because of Rudy? The answer is 100% yes. God foreknew that. God knew, God saw when when Rudy passed away, right? And in October of you know, 24, everybody's grieving. People are asking God, why would you allow this to happen? What we didn't see is what God already saw, what was already predestined in human choice, that there was going to be people in droves that were being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit that would not have freely chosen God without what had happened.

SPEAKER_02

But even what you said, I think we ought to go back to verse 28. And I think this again is a misunderstood verse because it says, and we know that in all things, God works for good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. That doesn't mean that God caused your dad to have cancer and him to die in that way. That doesn't mean he caused Rudy to die at the end of the race. No, death is a the Satan is the author of death, where God is the author of life. What I when we read this verse in 28, it doesn't mean that God causes those things to happen so good will come from it. It is that God He doesn't let anything go to waste. And if you are living according to His will, He's not gonna let your life story go to waste, and He's gonna be able to use that just like He did in Rudy's instance to turn it into something good for those around him.

SPEAKER_00

And God has morally sufficient reasons to allow evil. Yeah. Um and I mean you you look at you look at tragedies that happen. You look at um there's there's you know um Ben Matt. I remember Dylan Roof in South Carolina, the white supremacist that is somehow still alive, um, you know, he shot up a uh a church in Charleston, South Carolina. Why would God allow that to happen? You look at the fruit that has come from, not not the shooting, not to say fruit would come from that, but from the tragedy that happened in Charleston. And if you talk to some of the ministers and the pastors that were in that church in Charleston to say that after that happened, there was a revival that occurred. There was there was a a you know, something that happened in that church and in that community where everyone in unison turned towards Jesus. A more maybe one that you remember was the the Damar Hamlin case. I mean, remember he this guy almost literally dies in the middle of a football field with the entire world watching. What what what for the next two weeks? What were we seeing? We were seeing ESPN, right, as as nutty as they are. Stopping and praying. And they're literally, they're in the middle of like NFL Live, you have Dan Orlovsky praying, and there's probably people on set that don't believe in God, don't believe in Jesus, and what are they doing? They're bowing their heads, they're closing their eyes. And so again, there are morally sufficient reasons for God to allow because we don't know the beginning and middle and end. He does.

SPEAKER_02

So um that's good. And so the next one, the terminology that he uses, he goes from predestination. And so he says, for those God forenew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called. Those he called, he also justified. So called, I think many people would take that as, oh, he has chosen, he has called certain people, but he hasn't called other people.

SPEAKER_00

What you say to that? Um, I would say that we all receive a calling to an extent. I think that all of those that are in Christ have a calling. Well, first off, he calls everyone, um, without exception, to Matthew 28, 19. Go and make disciples of all nations, baptize, teach, the Great Commission. We're all called, at the bare minimum, we're called to follow the Great Commission. Now, I think that we each have individual exclusive callings. I think um I was called to preach. I received that calling very radically. There's certain people that aren't called to preach. There's some people that are called to um administrative uh spiritual gifts. I I'm not called to some of those. And so we all have, I think, different callings. But again, going back to the choice, um the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, do you know, do you know what uh Hall of Fame? Well, I don't know if he's in the NFL Hall of Fame, but what baseball slash football star. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers drafted first overall running back? No. Bo Jackson. They drafted Bo Jackson. I don't know if you know the story behind this. Bo Jackson was mad at the Buccaneers because the Buccaneers made Bo Jackson academically ineligible for baseball because they wanted him to play football. It made Bo so mad that he told the owner of the Buccaneers, if you draft me, I will not play for you. So what do the Buccaneers do? He was the best player in the world. They drafted him. They called him. So then what did Bo Jackson do? He called the Kansas City Royals and said, hey, I'll play for you. And Bo Jackson never played a down for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, even though they offered him mil, I mean, they they record-breaking contract. Bo said, there's no way I'm playing for you. It's not going to happen. They did all they could. They sent the private jet, they sent the tuxedo, and Bo Jackson suited up for the Kansas City Royals. So the idea of God calls, and someone may make the argument, well, there you go, God calls and therefore we have to respond. No, I think that there is a choice in responding to that calling, just like the NFL draft. Bo Jackson was called to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He chose on his own accord not to embrace that calling. And I don't know about you. Maybe in youth ministry you experienced this, but I saw students that I truly believed were called, and yet they went another direction on their own accord, and God allowed them to go that other direction. So that's what I would say in terms of how we define calling and how that plays a role when it comes to free will.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I'd say even going back to Romans 1, he he stretches that calling out like we have all been called. Like you can look at his creation and understand that there was a creator that was behind it all. And I'd say, and I even said yesterday, if you're hearing my voice, he is calling you right now. And so that I I go back and I agree with you that yes, he has called us all in some way or some other. It's all about us receiving that call um and answering that call to be his child, to be adopted into his family. Um, and so yes, does okay, but again, can God call you? But is there still free will? The answer is Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I think God called me to preach early on in my I so I accepted Christ when I was 16. I think he called me to preach when I was 19. I think I got the first like radical um revelation that I think God's wanted me to do ministry. What did I do? I ignored that calling from 19 all the way to 27, so eight years of me avoiding that calling. Now eventually I found my way back and I did accept that calling. Um, but I I see people all the time that God calls them, but they're on do not disturb, they do not answer that call.

SPEAKER_02

So well, then he goes into this those he's called, he's justified. And again, I think that goes back to hey, anybody who has said yes to Jesus has been justified by Christ. He has not lost a single one. And so that's where we would go back into the once saved, always saved, if saved. Yeah. Um, that hey, that work is by Jesus. And once you get on that train, then he has not ever lost a single passenger because it's based off of his work. And so that's why we would say, hey, those who called, he has justified. Therefore, there's nothing you could do to remove that justification from your life once you've truly been adopted and started following him. Um but then he after the justified, he then goes into he is also glorified. And I I that to me, the profound part about that is it's in the past tense. It's not saying, hey, he will glorify you. No, it says you have been glorified. And I think it what it is showing is God has already his promises is going to come to fulfillment, and it's gonna come to fulfillment within you, and in his eyes, you have already been glorified. Um, you don't even have to wait for heaven for that to take place, even though that's when it's gonna happen. Because in his mind, when he sees you, you're already been glorified.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you're a co-heir with Christ, as he says. Um, and so yeah, I think when we talk about justified, and we've talked a lot about the last couple weeks, but I uh a couple months ago I went to a wedding reception of a buddy that got married. Very, very the nicest reception I've ever been to. I like I it was suit and tie, I showed up without a tie, and I was like uh the redheaded stepchild. Like I felt. But like when I got there, they asked a question. They said they didn't know who I was, they knew I was probably underdressed, but they asked, What is your name? I told them my name, they looked at the list. I was justified because my name was on that list. And so the justification, it's nothing I could have done, it's nothing that I could have worn. I could have worn the nicest tuxedo. If my name was not on that list, I was not getting into this reception. But they looked at the at the list, they saw Roger Shear, and they let me in. And that is, I think, justification for us, where when you get to heaven or you get to the Pearley Gates and you have the nicest suit, the nicest resume, and you say, Hey, this is what I'm doing to earn my way into the reception. Ultimately, it's the same as looking at the list. And if your name is not in the Lamb's Book of Life, you're you're not getting in. That is the justification. It is the name on the list. Yeah. And how do you get your name on the list? Well, there's nothing you can do other than turn to Christ.

SPEAKER_02

So say yes. Yeah, that's a and then he he lands the plane in Romans 8 talking about this suffering and and going towards glory, about talking about how we are more than conquerors through Christ. And this is what everything has been building to. And you you can feel Paul, even as he's writing, he he's building up to this point of saying, okay, if all this is true, if you've uh been uh if you he foreknew you, if he predestined you, he called you, he justified you, he glorified you, what then shall we say about all of these things? And then he asked five questions that are to prove the point that we are going to overcome all suffering in life and be glorified with him. And this is big for Rome because they know what suffering is. Like they they've they've had to be in the middle of it. And I I talked about the suffering that Rome faced. It is like they literally Nero would take Christians, put them on a stake, put oil on them, and let them be candles to his parties. That's the type of suffering that they were facing. But he goes to this and says, Hey, you guys think Nero's winning? You think Rome is actually winning? No. This is how you are going to be more than a conqueror. And this is what unifies us. And so that's what he gets to, and how God is going to finish what he started. And so the five questions he asks is if God is for us, who can be against us? Simple answer, no one. If God gave up his son, won't he give up everything else? He will give up everything for you if he gave up his son. Verse 33 says, Who will bring a charge against God's children? The answer is nobody can bring a charge against us. We don't even have to pull a vouchie and plead the fifth up there because Jesus is interceding on our behalf. Like that's how great it is. So who then is condemned? The answer. No one. Who can separate you from the love of God? Love of Christ. No one. And that's where he ends it is what can separate you from the love of Christ? Nothing that you do, nothing that you've done, no person, no enemy in the spiritual realm, earthly realm, nothing can separate you from the love of Christ. And again, like even as an earthly father, if there's nothing that my boys can do for me not to love them and that love to be separate from them, how much more so is it for our heavenly father? Yeah. For him, nothing can separate that love. And I think if we truly start to understand those verses from 35 through 39 about how nothing can separate us from the love of God, we start to see the heart of the Father just a little bit more. Yeah. Interpret it through that. No, I agree. Do you have anything you want to add to that? Because that that's a very deep one. I know we just kind of went quick through it again, but yeah, anything?

SPEAKER_00

No, the only it's completely off topic. But man, uh people ask me all the time, do I believe we'll see our pets in heaven? I actually do believe we'll see our pets in heaven based off of Romans chapter 8. And I'll share it really quick. Let's go. Uh, verse 20 for the creation, creation not just being humanity, creation being all of God's creation, was subjected to frustration, which we would say sin, agony, disease, all of that. Um, not by its own choice. We didn't choose that, but by the will of the one, by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself, creation, not just humanity, will be liberated from its bondage. So bondage will be removed to decay and brought into the glorious freedom. Where do we find glorious freedom? Ultimately, it will be in the presence of God. Um, the glorious freedom of the children of God. And so um, this is not like a proof text. This is not beyond a shadow of a doubt that therefore we will see Wally in heaven, even though Wally is still very much alive. Um, I choose to believe that I will see my pets in heaven because God says that the creation will be freed from its bondage to bondage and decay.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, if we're gonna receive a new heaven and new earth, and all of creation is gonna be restored back to its original state. There's animals. If God created animals, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. Uh now, but then of course, uh you you could then ask more difficult questions, like, okay, if your dog is gonna be in heaven with you, then what about the steak that you had last night? Like the cow you ate. Is it gonna be in heaven with you? And then it's like, oh man, that's gonna be an awkward conversation, you know. Like, so I don't know. But like that's my when people say, Do I believe dogs go to heaven? I we've said it before, dogs absolutely do go to heaven. Only the good ones. Only the good ones about cats. Cats go to hell. No doubt about it. Yeah, there's there's no verse I have to support that, but I have no doubt that cats will split hell wide open. And not only will they split hell wide open, cats will be at the lowest layer of hell where it's the highest. There's different tiers of the city. They are at the bottom tier, which is not a good tier.

SPEAKER_02

It's very like Mormon hell theology that you're throwing at the city.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the celestial, terrestrial, telestial hell, not heaven. But people are like, why do you hate cats so much? Because I'm definitely allergic to cats. So cats have tried to kill me my entire life. So I just don't like cats. But I'm sure if I was allergic, I would love cats. So, anyways, that's my that's my off-topic little argument for why your dog and your cat, or your dog and parrot, or whatever, will be in heaven with you. So going back to uh our regularly scheduled programming of predestination, divine foreknowledge, uh going into God's sovereignty, uh, Romans chapter nine, which is just a continuation of kind of what we're talked about. Um but again, I I love at the very beginning we see Paul grieving. Um I have great sorrow.

SPEAKER_02

As we dive into this, let's explain. So we have only a couple weeks left uh of Romans that we can preach on Sunday. This is a benefit of the podcast where we can go through deeper on the podcast the chapters we're not gonna be able to hit on a Sunday morning. So this is one of those. You're gonna be talking about Romans 10 this Sunday. So we're gonna be going through kind of Romans 9 um today on the podcast to tee you up for what's gonna happen in Romans 10. So let's do a deep dive into Romans 9. It just so happens to be one of those texts that people who call themselves Calvinists will use in support of what they believe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so immediately we start out with with Paul grieving. And again, if we're all predestined, if there's no choice, if we're all just living out God's will, which is for some to go to heaven against their will and for some to go to hell against their will, that then why why have sorrow and grief for things that that is God has chosen himself? I to me, Paul is clearly grieving at the choice that people have that do not choose. And I love this even goes into Romans 10 when he's talking about Israel, um, because at the beginning of Romans 10, he says, My heart's desire and prayer uh to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um he same thing with verse 2. I have grief and uncase unceasing anguish in my heart, um, for I wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers. He's literally saying, I I would rather be cursed than to see all of you in your own agency, in your own will, have knowledge, but not choose God, is what Paul is saying. So, yeah, why is he grieving over Israel then? Because I think he sees zeal, and in Romans 10, he even compliments their zeal. He says, I see that, but I think that what Paul is doing here is what we should all do. And I've met Christians before that speak of an antagonistic non-Christian, somebody that they know. Maybe it's a celebrity, maybe it's someone that they work with, but somebody who is very boldly against Christianity. And they may have knowledge, they may have all the arguments, but I've talked to some Christians before that almost desire that they, because they speak against God, they speak against the Bible, that their desire is almost, you know what, they just need to that they they need to get what's coming, right? That that if if they're gonna reject God, if they're gonna reject this, they they they just need to split hell wide open. Um that's not what Paul does. Paul doesn't say, hey, you you you turn your backs away from God, and so man, I can't wait for the day that you meet your maker. Like that's not what Paul says. He he grieves, he he he has agony towards them, and he wants literally all of them, if possible, to turn their backs or to turn forward back toward Christ. And so um well, I think it's a key to understand this.

SPEAKER_02

Why is he addressing Israel now in chapter nine? Because he just came off of chapter eight making that promise that God is going to finish what he started, he's gonna fulfill his promise, and that is of salvation to all people. Now he's getting into chapter nine. How does that play into Israel? If Israel is God's promised people, his promised nation, the people that he promised to appear to first, why is Paul now getting into this where he is sad and grieving over Israel? And the point that he's trying to make here in the first part of nine is him telling you guys, I've been where you guys are at. And and us as Israel, us as God's people, we had all the blessings, we had all the knowledge, we had his word, we had the the law, we had these patriarchs in our faith pointing us to the person of who Jesus is. And I missed it for so long until I finally gave my life over to Christ, and he's grieving over Israel because God did appear to them first to make and Jesus appeared to the Jews first to make themselves known, and they're still missing it. And so he is saying, God did fulfill his promise to you, Israel. You are just missing it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And Paul, like you said, Paul was a Pharisee, Paul was a well-respected general within a lot of these people. Um, and to me, it reminds me of you know, we just had another drug court graduation and seeing the testimonies of what God is doing with drug courts, just absolutely incredible. Um, but you know, I I love talking to them. Uh, the Stefan Olivers of the world, the Kay Perry's of the world, Gretchen uh Dill, I don't know what her last name is now, but Gretchen just graduated. And it's funny when you talk to them and how involved they were in sin, how involved they were in drugs, not just using drugs, but we're talking drug trafficking, the whole nine yards. Um, and then you ask them about people that they befriended when they were when they were addicts, and to hear them grieve over them still being in that life, knowing what getting out of that life looks like. Paul knew, okay, this is what happens after you leave the religion that you're a part of. It to me is very similar to someone who graduates drug court and yet looks in their past and sees people that are still in the bondage of addiction, and to say, if only they could experience what sobriety looks like, what true freedom looks like. That to me is how I read Romans Knight is Paul is looking at his former brothers and sisters and saying, if only you had a taste of what this freedom looks like, you would never turn around, you would never go back. And that to me is Paul grieving that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, and so he he's grieving that because he knows that they they were at one time God's chosen people. So then he gets into this aspect of God's sovereign choice and his sovereign grace. So let's dive into that a little bit, a little bit more. What do you think on that? And I know there's a whole conversation on Israel that needs to happen. Is today's Israel the same Israel that we're gonna do?

SPEAKER_00

We want to wait for Jordan. Jordan's a big Israel guy, Old Testament guy. So I think it would be do us justice to wait for him.

SPEAKER_02

We he talks about Israel from nine through chapter 11. We're we'll get wait till Jordan gets back and we'll dive into that even more. But let's dive into this. What does it mean by God's sovereign choice, his sovereign grace? Let's dive into that just a little bit in this next part.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think we we kind of talked about God's sovereignty um a little bit before. Um, but I would actually, you've got your computer pulled up. Yeah. What is the Merriam-Webster? I want to know how they define sovereignty. Because I hear sovereignty used in so many different ways, and I have my definition of sovereignty. Paul clearly talks about sovereignty extensively um in Romans chapter 9, and again, debating Calvinists, and I'm getting ready in October, I'm debating a Calvinist um on stage, um, and I I already know the argument he's going to make before he makes it. It's almost like I have um, you know, divine foreknowledge. But the argument he's going to make is are you saying God is not all sovereign? And we we would not say that. We would say, of course, God um God is all sovereign. But yeah, what what is what is Google or Let's go chat.

SPEAKER_02

So sovereignty is the supreme authority, power, and right to rule. Someone who is sovereign answers to no higher authority and has the ability to accomplish their will.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would completely agree.

SPEAKER_02

Now, more specifically, when Christians talk about God's sovereignty, they mean that God has absolute authority over all creation and is actively ruling over everything according to his perfect wisdom, power, and purpose. Nothing happens outside of his knowledge or ultimate control.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Um and so the idea that God is in full control, so the argument would be, okay, if do you believe God is in full control? Yes, okay, then how do our choices against God not interrupt or intervene on his control? Because if I could choose anything I want to against God and against his will, how can he still be in full control? Or as Paul or as Paul would argue, how can God still be all sovereign?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So you're asking me that? Yeah, what what would you say? So if God is in full control, yeah, and I can freely choose to deny him, not only can I choose to deny him, I can go and recruit a bunch of other people to say, hey, God's not real, Jesus didn't rise from the dead, the Bible's just a bunch of fairy tales. How then is God still in full control if me and all of my minions that I've now been able to recruit, how does that not interrupt God's faith?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I go back, I go back to what we talked about before, and I it may be a cop-out answer, but I believe it's the way it works because God is an infinite being and we are only finite humans. But can God have absolute sovereignty and us have free will? I think the answer is both, yes. I don't think you have to say, well, God has sovereignty or there's free will. I think God can be completely sovereign, yes, and there be the presence of free will, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So here's the argument, and I made this argument before we started recording because it can be a very, this is where my philosophy hat comes on. Um, but lately I've been studying this view called Molinism, M-O-L-I-N-I-S-M. I am fascinated with the belief of Molinism. In fact, I'm very close to calling myself a Molinist. And Molinism comes from, I think he was a Catholic friar centuries ago named Luis di Molina. And Molina was the first person to present this argument, this idea of how can God be all-sovereign and yet we still have free will? And this is basically the easiest way I can explain Molinism. That's still probably going to sound too complicated, but like I said, I'll do my best. So Molinism is the idea that God, that there are many possible worlds. And a possible world is a world in which um anything can logically happen. So for example, we're sitting here right now. If I punch you in the face, I can logically do that. That is one possible world. If I don't punch you in the face, that's another possible world. Now, you can retaliate and punch me back, that's another possible world. So anything that logically happens is a possible world. It's kind of like the butterfly effect. When you are driving to work today, there are a thousand different choices you can make by your own accord. You can choose to drive the other lane of traffic and hit someone. You can make that choice. You can choose to stop in the lane, you can choose to obey the speed limit and just go to work, right? There's all of these different possible worlds. Well, Mullenism would say God sees all of these possible worlds because God has middle knowledge. He knows every outcome of each possible world, and God will choose a possible world for whatever morally sufficient reasons that he does. And so God can choose a possible world using his middle knowledge, and we still have choice in that possible world. The example I gave Jaden beforehand is I'll ask you this question as well. Imagine there is a blind man, you're at Grand Canyon, and there's a blind man who is walking off of a cliff that is a hundred feet long. You know he's gonna walk off the cliff, he can't see where he's going. Um, and you allow him, you don't intervene, you don't stop him, and you allow him to walk off the cliff. Are you would you have some moral responsibility for that man walking off the cliff?

SPEAKER_02

You'd say yes.

SPEAKER_00

You would say yes. That so an atheist would say, check mate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

God sees what you're doing, he sees that you are going to hell, and he doesn't interrupt. Isn't that the same as allowing that blind man to walk off? If God can see the possible world that you do not intervene and he walks off the cliff, then doesn't that make God evil? Well, with divine foreknowledge, let's say a week later, that blind man, and you know this, let's say you have omniscience, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a week later, that blind man, in his own arrogance and his own stupidity, maybe in his own evil, he's gonna get in a van and he's gonna drive, being blind, and he's gonna hit a school bus head on and he's gonna kill 20 children. Do you still think God is evil? Or that do you and if you knew that if you knew that that man was gonna do that, that he was gonna hit a school bus head on, would you still be morally evil for allowing him to walk off that cliff? The answer would then be no, because you're by your own foreknowledge, you foreknew that in that instance, allowing something to happen would then prevent evil from happening a week later. In Molinism, Molina would argue that God sees possible worlds and he chooses a possible world in which the man chooses on his own accord to walk off the cliff. And God does not stop him, but that we don't know what morally sufficient reasons God has for doing that because God can see the future. We cannot see the future. So that is again that there's uh ways I can explain it that are actually more complicated than that, but that is basically Molinism. If you really want to get intellectual constipation, um, I would encourage you to actually read some of Molina's writings.

SPEAKER_02

It is, it is So you're gonna have certain people that just are gonna rewind and listen to you again to hear it explained. Yes. And then some people who fell asleep they need to come back awake, right? So wake up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's Molinism. Again, I I I think that Molinism is is a really, really good explanation. God is still all-sovereign. God can still choose possible worlds in for whatever reason that he chooses, morally sufficient reasons, but that in that possible world that God chooses, we still have complete um autonomy to do the things that we do, the say this say the things that we say, to accept Christ, to reject Christ. God keeps his sovereignty, he's still in full control, but we also have 100% free will. So that is my philosophical jargon. Probably lost 90% of our listeners. But for the 10% that are like, hey, we love philosophy, we love theology, research Molinism. William Lane Craig, probably my favorite theologian of all time, he is the one that introduced me to Molinism, and he has a debate against James White. What is the best explanation for evil, Molinism or Calvinism? And I think Craig mops the floor with with James White in that debate. So you could go watch that. So, anyways, that's my that's my philosophical argument. Now I'm going to give it back to you to maybe speak uh a little more lay term.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so putting it in kind of lay terms, we're going back to where Paul's argument is in chapter nine. You know, he's has anguish over Israel, and then he uses some Israel history to build up to this point of what he's talking about, really, in verse 16. And what he's trying to do, and he's what he's trying to break down to them, is hey, it's not based upon your history, it's not based upon your heritage now that salvation rests, it's based upon God's mercy. Yeah, and God has now decided, um, and fulfillment of his word in his scripture to show mercy, not just to his people, the Israelites, but to all people, including Gentiles. And so what Paul is trying to do is level the playing field um for Israel and the Gentiles to show them, hey, God has provided his mercy now for them all. And so, with that being said, his sovereignty has sustained and made his way and it continue will, but there's now also the human element of the free will of now deciding to receive that mercy. But when we get are building up to this in chapter six in verse sixteen, this is I think again where we as humans, even as Christians, we are we get mixed feelings, I guess you would say, on verse 16, or we interpret it differently. And so let's dive into that a little bit because in 16 it says it does not therefore demand depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. What does that mean? Explain that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so this is uh the one verse that I think best supports Calvinism. And this is kind of the big all of chapter 9 is kind of the big chapter that would support predestination as Calvinists would define it. But verse 16 is like the proof text that I see all of that.

SPEAKER_02

So very simple, Calvinism. Explain it as quick as possible.

SPEAKER_00

Calvinism, predestination, that when when before you were even formed in the womb, God destined you to heaven or hell. Um two-lip T-U-L-I-P, five-point Calvinism. Um L would be limited atonement, that Christ did not die for all, he died for some. I being irresistible grace, meaning that if you are called, that you cannot resist. And so if I'm a Christian, I'm going to heaven, I cannot resist. It is irresistible grace. But T, total depravity, means that if you are not predestined for heaven, you are totally depraved. There is nothing you can do to get out of that depravity, that God has already condemned you to hell even before you were born. So that's the idea of predestination, which would then mean I have no choice in accepting Christ and going to heaven or rejecting Christ and going to hell, because I have I have already been damned to hell, or I've already been exalted to heaven, either based off of total depravity, hell, or irresistible grace, heaven. That would be Calvinism kind of.

SPEAKER_02

So that's why they use verse 16 as a proof test because Paul is clearly saying there, hey, does not depend on human effort or desire, but on God's mercy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And the non-Calvinist, the Arminian or the Molinist would say that desire precedes salvation. And so, in order for someone to truly come to Christ, there has to be a desire to know Christ. If someone has no desire to know Christ, but then accepts Christ, well, then would that be free will because they went against their own desire? So again, this is kind of the verse that Calvinists would say, aha, you see, we have no choice in the matter. And I would say that this verse says nothing about human responsibility. Humans are still fully responsible in um, I wouldn't say fully responsible because God clearly plays a role in it, but that we are still responsible in terms of choosing heaven or hell. But I always look at this verse, same author, but going to 1 Timothy chapter 2, um, and and what I think is is one of the most important verses in this conversation. Um, 1 Timothy 2, 4, who God who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, for there is one God and one mediator between God and man. So again, um it is good pleasing to our Savior who wants all men saved and to come to a knowledge. So does God want all to come to him? Yes. Is God's desire that we all choose him? Yes. Then why, if God's desire is for all men to come to Christ, why would he then kind of fudge the rules to where some have literally no choice in choosing him? Paul's writings, if you have to look at it in the entire context, not just one verse, but look at it through the whole lens of Paul's writing, not just in Romans, but in all of the other letters that we have of Paul, is that clearly God desires all to come to him. Now, will all come to him? No. Could God have chosen all of us to come to him? Yes, but then we don't have free will. So God wants free will, and he also wants all to choose him. But unfortunately, because free will exists, not all will choose him. So, verse 16, I think you you you did a good job explaining. This is actually kind of what Paul is saying. Um, but don't read verse 16 and say, Therefore, there's no responsibility, uh, human responsibility in choosing God. We still freely choose God. Um, but again, in verse 16, he's responding to in verse 14, what then shall we say is God unjust? And so he's responding to the question, well, does that does this then make God unjust? No. Um, God is all just and he's also all sovereign, sovereign, and also all loving.

SPEAKER_02

So Yeah, and make that more simple. I think if Calvinists read it that way, they are taking verse 16 out of context. They are just taking verse 16, isolating it by itself, and not in what Paul is making the argument for. Because I think if you read all of chapter 9 leading up to verse 16, and what he's trying to show is that hey, your salvation is not based upon your heritage or your history or who where you were born. Now his mercy is expanding out beyond that, not just for Israel, but for all God.

SPEAKER_00

He concludes the point of verse 16, two verses later, in verse 18. And this is the verse I think that sometimes Calvinists don't include. But what does he say in 18? He concludes it by saying, Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden. But I think in that, um, it is solely based off of his foreknowledge. Going back to the whole idea of God knows beginning past or beginning, present, and future, he knows what we are going to choose. He knows the day I'm born, he doesn't destin me to heaven or hell, but he knows what I am going to choose. And so, in our human choices, in what we do, if someone has a life of loathing God, despising God, turning their back on God, God is saying, Hey, in your choice, in my sovereignty, I can still choose who I have mercy on based off of your own heart, based off of your own autonomy. And I think that that's basically what what we're we're talking about here. So I would conclude it with that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, man, my biggest encouragement would be um, who cares about Calvinism and Arminianism? Um, and read the Bible with no pre-understanding or context of it. Like try to approach the word at all times possible with an open mind, open heart with what the Lord is trying to say. Yeah. And we because that is us just as finite humans trying to describe the infinite. But I think the overall point that Paul is trying to make here in chapter 9, he summarizes it beautifully at the end. And starting in verse 30, when he says, What then shall we say? And how many times do we see Paul make that argument or that f use that phrase in Romans, the book of Romans? What then shall we say? And um, you know he's about to summarize everything that he just talked about and what he wants you to get out of it. And so all of that, what he talked about Israel, he says, What then shall we say? That the Gentiles who do not pursue righteousness have attained it. A righteousness that is by faith, but the people of Israel who pursue the law as the way of righteousness have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith, but if it was by their works, they stumbled over the stumbling stone. So, what do you say, you, Roger? How would you simplify and explain Romans chapter 9?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think uh going back to Romans 7, where we where Paul very much explains the role of the law and and what the law is and why the the Israelites, the Jews were so adamant about following the law, following religion, um, but distinguishing, as he says in Romans 7, that the law is is powerless. And then we get into uh what I'll talk about next week, Romans 10, and really the the verse in Romans 10 that I always go to is verse 9 when we talk about Romans row, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. And so he sees Israel's unbelief, he sees that their heart is hardened, he sees their arrogance and their pride and their religiosity, right? Their um their worshiping of the law. Um and he even says in in verse 31, but Israel who pursued a law of righteousness has not attained it. They've pursued the law, they pursued what perceived what they view to be righteousness. And in what what Paul is saying is you cannot be found righteous at all without Christ. And that's where we get into Romans chapter 10, where he presents to them um, here here's here's here's the alternative of the life that you are living, which can only be found in Christ.

SPEAKER_02

So I think that's a great way to just kind of summarize what he's talking about. And he's in anguish over Israel, and he's he's you can see his heart, he's angry, but he's also sad because he's been where they were at. And I would say the application point is Israel is they they are putting God in a box. And they're still saying that the only way to have receive righteousness is is they're putting their faith in the law and saying that's the only way that God can distribute righteousness, is if he you are the part of the chosen nation who follow the law, and that's where righteousness comes from. And what Paul is really trying to get them to understand is like, no guys, you're missing it. The law pointed towards Jesus, and now that Jesus is here, he has now made righteousness available to all people through his abundant amount of mercy. And anybody that calls upon that name gets to receive that mercy. And so he's trying to tell them, stop putting God in a box. And I'd say in our life as well, where are we putting God in a box? Where are we saying he can only operate uh under these circumstances? Um, and let's tear those boxes down and tear those walls down so that God can work in the way that he truly needs to work.

SPEAKER_00

And closing thing I'll say on this, I know it's been a recurring illustration, but I think it's it's the illustration I think is most impactful for when we talk about this is going back to the smoke detector. The smoke detector was the law, in that the law detected, it beeped that they had sin, that they had pride, that they had all of these things in their life. The law was to tell them, hey, you've got a problem that you need fixed. They were putting their faith in the smoke detector to put the fire out. The point of the law was not to put the fire out, the point of the law was to say, I need someone who can put the fire out. I need a firefighter. Christ is the firefighter, he's the one with the water hose to say, okay, I can put that out. The detector is meant to detect the problem so that you can find the savior. You can find the rescuer, as Paul ends Romans 7, who will rescue me? The answer is Christ. And so just as the Jews back then were putting their faith in the smoke detector, um, it is no different today. When we talk about legalism, we did a whole episode on legalism, is one of my favorite episodes we did. But that's the same idea. When you become overly legalistic, you basically put your identity in that smoke detector. Um, but that's that but that you your faith in that ceases faith in the rescuer himself, which is Jesus. So that's again, Paul is speaking to legalistic Jews 2,000 years ago. I'm speaking to many legalistic Christians in 2000 years ago.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and he's saying that's becoming your stumbling stone. Yeah. Like when even it doesn't have to be something that is outside the church or outside the law to be a stumbling stone. It could be religious ideologies that become your stumbling stone. Um and so that and he even says tells them that they have stumbled overly over the stumbling stone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think Judaism, um, and we've talked about this to do different different types of orthodox Jewish sects will do um, like on Sunday. They will literally create um things to turn so like buttons to hit to turn the lights off, or um, you know, like the the strings that they pull because they don't want to be seen working on the Sabbath. That even if they open the front door, God may see that they're they're working to do something, and God will punish them for that, right? That that that Judaism is is marred with with legalism. And and Paul is seeing that, that you have these people that know the scriptures like the back of their hand, but they're so self-righteous that they cannot find their righteousness in something greater than them, which is Christ. So that that's basically how I would summarize Romans 9 with all the fun Calvinism arguments. The last thing I'll say on the Calvinism thing, because I do want to say this, um, because I know we have people listening that are Calvinists. We have people that go to our church that are Calvinists. Um, it is a secondary issue. I don't believe anybody's gonna go to hell because they're a Calvinist, and I don't believe people go to heaven because they're not a Calvinist. Like that's a secondary issue. Soteriology, the method of salvation, um, is not the source of salvation. So if you hear this and you're like, oh man, anti-Calvinist pastor, our comments, I promise you, we're gonna have that. This will probably be our most commented video if they get the part that we talked about this on. Um, and sorry.

SPEAKER_02

Well, people like the thing about Calvinists, though, is like they spend more time talking about Calvinism than anything else.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it it is it is incredible. Um, and the guy I'm debating in October that is a Calvinist, I'm very I talk I talked to him on Zoom, and um we both agreed like, hey, we disagree strongly on this issue, but we're both going to heaven. We both know that ultimately our faith is in Jesus. And I think when we have these conversations, whether it be the age of the earth, whether it be um speaking in tongues, cessationism, eschatology, whatever, um if we're not careful, those become the kind of like the law, right? If if your only focus is on the law itself, it clouds who Christ is. The same is true for secondary theological issues. As fun as they are to talk about, and I do think we need to talk about it. I think theology matters, but if that becomes our identity of, oh, I'm just gonna debate Calvinism, okay, where's Christ in that? Where's the cross in that conversation?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I and I just see Romans 9 even so much more as leveling the playing field that salvation is available both to the Jews and to the Gentiles. The Jews, they had the advantage because they had all of these things that pointed them to Christ. And it just shows that God, through his sovereign mercy, has been moving history towards Jesus and extending salvation to both Jews and Gentiles.

SPEAKER_00

And next week, Romans 10, I will talk about when Paul says that God wants everyone to choose Christ. God wants all of us to surrender ourselves. Unfortunately, we're humans. Yeah, some of us aren't gonna do that, but God wants as many as possible.

SPEAKER_02

And next week be a fun conversation, probably talk a little bit more about is Israel. Yeah, is today's Israel, like, is it the one that is from the Bible Times? Are Christians, is the church, the new Israel, all of those fun questions that surround Israel. So we're gonna talk about all that.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. I can't wait to talk about that. And uh I'm a little nervous even thinking about it because I just know people you talk about Calvinism, Arminianism, people get fired up. Israel, modern day stuff, ooh man, like that's that's dangerous. But we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna go where it's dangerous. That's what we like to do. Thanks again for joining us. Uh Sunday, we'll be back for 9 a.m., 10 30 uh team FPC as we're continuing the book of Romans. Uh but until then, we will see you next time. Go make heaven crowded.