Make Heaven Crowded

Is the Sinners prayer Wrong? & Should Christians support Israel | Make Heaven Crowded Ep. 45

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In this episode of Make Heaven Crowded, we continue our journey through Romans 10 and 11 and tackle two questions that have sparked significant discussion within Christianity: Is the Sinner’s Prayer biblical? And should Christians support Israel?

As Paul explains God's plan of salvation and His relationship with Israel, these chapters raise important questions about faith, confession, salvation, God's promises, and the future of Israel.

We dive into questions like:

• Is the Sinner’s Prayer found in Scripture, or is it a modern Christian practice?
• What does Romans 10 actually teach about salvation and confessing Jesus as Lord?
• What does Paul mean when he says, “all Israel will be saved”?
• How should Christians understand God's ongoing relationship with Israel?

This conversation isn't about reducing complex biblical questions to simple answers. It's about opening Romans 10 and 11, examining Paul's argument in context, and wrestling honestly with what Scripture teaches.

🎙️ Make Heaven Crowded – Episode 45
📖 Scripture: Romans 10–11
✝️ Topics: Salvation, The Sinner’s Prayer, Israel, God's Promises, Romans, Biblical Theology
🌐 Learn more at teamfbc.info

SPEAKER_00

Well, hello and welcome to the Make Heaven Crowded Podcast. I am Pastor Jordan, joined with Pastor Roger and Pastor Luke. Roger, you were up this week. I was. Romans 10.

SPEAKER_01

Romans 10.

SPEAKER_00

And something is ringing.

SPEAKER_01

Such an easy chapter. God's calling. Such an easy chapter. We've said that a lot the last few weeks. Romans 10, though. Great chapter.

SPEAKER_00

You all keep saying this is a such an easy chapter. I think Rome, Romans, the book, is one of the more complicated books to understand and decode what Paul says. Some of it. Because like even just, you know, as I was going through and refreshing myself on some old let my lessons that I taught on Romans, just that where he talks about I hate um uh or I I love Jacob but hate Esau. What does that mean? We talked about that. I mean, to does God literally hate Esau? No, it's that he chose one and didn't choose the other. Uh just understanding those nuances of what a certain words Paul uses means can really complicate.

SPEAKER_01

And we see hyperbolic language. I mean, Jesus said, um, if you want to follow me, you hate your father and mother. Does that mean I literally have to hate my parents?

SPEAKER_00

He's using choose your parents over me.

SPEAKER_01

Using hyperbole to say that your love for me in contrast to your love is is not going to be, you know.

SPEAKER_00

But so many people take those words literally that oh, I've got to hate my family in order to follow Christ. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a choice, it's not a love-hate, it's a choice. Are you choosing your family over Christ? So that's where I think it gets complicated to understand what Paul's actually saying in a lot of Romans because it's just it's thick. Yeah. So I you guys always talk about, oh, this is easy.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, this is we did not say Romans 9 was easy to talk about.

SPEAKER_01

Romans 9, no, no, no. Romans 9. So last week, um, which was one of my favorites to record, not because you weren't here, we we actually did miss you, but like it was my time to just be a complete nerd, and I explained Molinism and middle knowledge and divine foreknowledge and actual worlds and possible worlds and um all of that fun stuff that people probably and I drank my coffee quiet. Yeah, so Romans 9, it really is like it is theologically rich. Like you could really go to the deep end with Romans 9, but I completely agree. There is a part, and even the part we talked about where I made the argument that all dogs go to heaven, when it talks about what is liberated from bondage to decay, like there's wording there that you have to almost break down every word by itself to understand what's so that's why I kind of laugh when you say, Oh, this one's easy.

SPEAKER_00

It's like uh okay. But you know, we were talking about one of our our big topics today is you know, one that's very controversial. Yeah, I would say the whole idea of you telling somebody, I don't know if your dog's gonna be in heaven, that could be the most controversial or awful thing you could tell somebody.

SPEAKER_01

And it's the one theological belief I tell people I believe this because I want it so badly to be true. Like that is literally like if I hated dogs, I think I would be probably neutral because the Bible doesn't outright say one side or the other. But the argument I made last week is when it talks about creation will be liberated, we're not just talking creation in terms of you and I. We're talking the creation and because the earth that God created here, what did he populate it with? Animals, what then why wouldn't a new earth uh include the animals?

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

So that's the you could you could make those types of fun arguments. I will say Romans 10. Granted, God is speaking to Israel. I really applied this chapter more to okay, yes, he's speaking to Israel, but everything he is saying, um, you can individualize what Paul is saying. You don't have to say, well, he's just speaking to a bunch of groups of people, um, because the truths of Roman 10, um, all of them I think can be applied to the individual believer that is actively following Jesus. And so it talks about Israel's unbelief, it talks about they had zeal but they didn't have knowledge. Well, that's true for how many Christians do we know or non-Christians? They have all the zeal, they have all the passion. But when you start to break down what they believe, there's no knowledge, there's no substance behind it.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and what's the knowledge he's talking about? He's talking about understanding who Jesus is and what he did for them. So Israelites, they did not have the correct knowledge. They had the knowledge of the law, but they didn't connect that to the Messiah that was coming, and then that messiah being Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

And in my sermon, I distinguish there's three why why do we believe things so so hard and yet um they're not they not be true? And I say number one is our upbringing so often, how we are brought up. Until I was in police academy, I still thought keeping the dome light in the car was against the law. You know, because my parents would tell me, you turn the light on to read a book, hey, we'll get pulled over. So our upbringing, right? Like, I believed that way too long until I was almost a cop, and I'm like, oh, that's not against the law, right? The other two is we believe things because a pastor once told us some of the worst theology I've ever heard my entire life comes from it starts with the statement, well, I heard in a church one time, so you got to be careful about that. But then number three, and I think that this is the biggest one, we base it off of our society and our culture. And that that is our up a part of our upbringing, but what we believe is based off of the environment that we are in. And our culture says, if you want it, you have to earn it, right? Everything with the American dream, you work hard enough, then you may be one of the ones that make it. So we apply that cultural belief in our Christianity, and that's the how we become saved.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_01

Our salvation. And that zeal that we have based off of our experience is actually completely uh absent of the knowledge of how we we we get Christ.

SPEAKER_00

So um, so yeah. A lot of mindset of I need to clean myself up, I need to start doing better, I need to fix some things before I can go to church or before God will accept me. Because that's what culture says.

SPEAKER_01

I listen, I really want this job that I'm not qualified enough. What does the world say? Well, you got to get qualified. Go get trained, go get your education, go get this, maybe work a few jobs before you get there, and then maybe if if you're lucky, if you interview well, if your resume is clean enough, then you can get that. And I think again, it's so easy to apply that to when we see this view of heaven. Well, I I haven't got the qualifications yet.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, why wouldn't it be? Yeah. I mean, if that's everything else you know is that way, why wouldn't that be? Exactly. Which unfortunately, that's where the way several, if not all other religions are that way. Absolutely. Except this one.

SPEAKER_01

And we've called out, I think, most of them on this podcast. And so um, so we get to Romans 10, and I think really the the the proof text that I use, kind of the the the uh the main text, is Romans 10, 9, and 10. And I think that we can really dive into this because I think this is uh a verse that can be misused or used with good intent, but maybe it isn't fully explained. So I'll read Romans 10, 9, and 10 real quick. I need my readers. Um You have readers already? Oh, I've had readers since I was a cop. I actually am prescribed glasses. I never wear them unless I have bad headaches. I've worn my glasses on the show before.

SPEAKER_00

But I thought those were distanced, so I didn't know those were readers.

SPEAKER_01

No, I have both.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah, it's it's so they're bifocals?

SPEAKER_01

Uh they're the Ben I call them my Ben Franklins. Ben Franklins. Yeah. Anyway. Sorry. I will be fully blind by 45. So uh verse nine. That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. And then verse 10 for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified. We've talked a lot about that word, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. So basically, Paul is saying that your salvation, it is one decision, it is one instantaneous moment, but it consists of two different dynamics in that salvation: your mouth and your heart, confession and belief, and those two really should be kind of simultaneous. They they happen in the same moment.

SPEAKER_00

And so But when the heart does come before the confession or the professing of your because because to confess something you first have to truly believe it.

SPEAKER_01

In the controversy is do people confess, do people mix that up? Do they confess before the heart has been regenerated? And the answer to that is unfortunately, absolutely yes. And so uh Leonard Ravenhill, who's one of my favorite theologians, he's an Arminian. Um never heard of him. Really? Ravenhill? Oh, he's he's incredible. He's got some incredible writings, and he's got a very cool last name. Ravenhill. Ravenhill is a cool last name. Something that Edgar Allan Poe should have heard of it. It really does, yeah. But he said he was talking about the sinner's prayer, right? What we close every Sunday with. Um, do you believe an invitation? An invitation, but a sinner's prayer is is, you know, Billy Graham um, you know, led hundreds of thousands of people to heaven with the sinner's.

SPEAKER_00

Just pray this prayer.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, Billy Graham made the sinner.

SPEAKER_00

Say these words, follow along with me.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. And so Leonard Ravenhill wrote um that the sinner's prayer has sent more people to hell than even the worst sin. Basically saying that how many people have woken up in heaven that said, wait a second, I said the words. I looked in the mirror and I said Beetlejuice three times. Why am I not in heaven? Right? You know, like that's the idea of I said the words, I said the password. Why did my password not get me through? Yeah. And here's the funny thing of someone who does the sinner's prayer every Sunday, he's not necessarily wrong with that statement. Would you agree, disagree?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think, you know, is it important that people like Billy Graham would do it? Is it important that we do at the end of service? Yes, because you're providing the opportunity for the people who have experienced true life change. And so where he is correct is is there people that are just going through the motions that they feel the tug, like, oh, I know this is something I'm gonna need to do. I'm scared about going to hell. And if I say I'd rather go to heaven, you know, and I kinda agree with what he's saying, but they don't necessarily believe it in their heart, and that's why I think verse 10 basically is so powerful, for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified. Yeah, I think as you said, that is step one. The step two is the prayer, which we would say is the confession that he is your Lord, that he's doing. And so, yes, if they skip that step one, it is dangerous, and I would agree with him, but that's where we have to do a really good job as pastors and speakers, and I would say where Billy Graham was probably better than anyone of making sure they had step one covered of them believing in their heart before they said that prayer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the issue though is that with Billy Graham, when you're preaching a revival with 50,000 people, it's really easy to do step one to explain it the way he did. The difficult part is step two, where even a church our size is not as easy as maybe some other churches is that when that prayer is said, when that confession happens, that there has to be follow-up to walk with him and and to see, okay, yes, that this was a genuine confession, you are saved. And that's why when we baptize anybody, we we even even if we do a spontaneous baptism Sunday or a men's conference or women's conference baptism, we will not let anybody in the water without having that conversation and as pastors to discern, okay, was this just saying the words, or is there actually understanding?

SPEAKER_02

I believe that part is important to have that follow-up conversation with them. But also I think you can still there's people that have genuinely gotten saved by saying those prayers. I'd say a lot of people. Countless. Yeah. But I think where we can do a better job, I would say, is affirming to them like, hey, if you don't believe this in your heart, don't say this prayer that I'm about to say. Yeah. Like you just saying these words, they're not going to do anything. But if you truly have heart change, you truly want something different, you truly are going to make him the Lord of your life, then this is how you do so.

SPEAKER_00

So what you're saying is that when we do an invitation at the end of any given service to clarify that and say, this is real only if you feel something you truly believe in your heart, yeah, that you believe that Christ, what he did for you on the cross, then now pray this prayer with me. Because that is the next step too. Yeah, step two. Yeah. And you know, it's kind of crazy. Um the whole thought that there is no sinner's prayer in the Bible, and when you realize that, you're like, well, wait a minute. I mean, I I was an adult when I've I always just figured it was somewhere tucked away somewhere in the Bible, and I just didn't ever nobody ever said where it was. Um, and then you discover, wait, there is no sinner's prayer. Well, then why do we do that? It is kind of like a it's almost it's kind of troubling.

SPEAKER_02

And it's sinner sinner's prayer that sinner's prayer is essentially a paraphrase of Romans. Romans Road. Well, not just Romans 10.

SPEAKER_01

But Romans Road, when you start Romans 3, 20, and then you go through the entirety of Romans, the sinner's prayer, and I think it's kind of like the the Trinity's not in the Bible. Like we don't see the Trinity. It the word Trinity actually didn't exist.

SPEAKER_00

The word, yeah, but we do see the Holy, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit together at Jesus, we see it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But but but I've been an argument that I've heard from you know Mormons and people that that are not Trinitarian would say, well, we don't outright see the proof text that says, aha, see, the the Trinity is is three and one and all all of those things.

SPEAKER_00

And and we could argue What about Jesus' baptism?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. I'm a trinit Trinitarian, don't worry. But what I'm saying is is that Mormons would be. Matthew 28, 19, I would say the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_02

You're making the argument that I and the Father are one. The word trinity is not in that. The word trinity is still there. The word sinner's prayer is not the one.

SPEAKER_00

But I would say in the end of the day, there's been a collection of, hey, this is what you need to do.

SPEAKER_01

And I think if you look at Romans 10, 9 through 10, is Paul saying, hey, at the end of the service, you need to bow your head? No, he's not saying that. But he is saying, here is the component of salvation. There's the heart transformation, and then that should overflow through the confession that comes from the mouth. Let me ask you this question.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Actually, you answer your own question. Is he right? Uh he's partially correct. I think that there's a lot of people, and and we've talked to people that have turned away from the faith entirely and probably were not saved, but they were at church camp and they heard and they repeated the pastor and they raised their hand and they genuinely thought, oh, I'm good, when there actually wasn't a regeneration.

SPEAKER_02

So some denominations would say they lost their salvation. We would say they never had their sales. They were never saved in first half.

SPEAKER_01

And to me, that's it. That's it. And that's even when I lead someone to the Lord one-on-one. Yeah. Um, one thing I do not do, I used to do this, but I don't do it anymore, is hey, bow your heads and close your eyes, repeat after me and have the person repeat. I don't do that. I actually want them to pray. Like, so I will give them all the ingredients and then I tell them, like, hey, will you now, will you now pray? Basically, will you speak to God? And then I get to listen to them. And that's pretty hard to fudge up right there. Like, you're gonna you're gonna be able to pick up on, okay, that was that was a genuine salvation. Yeah. And even with my dad, um, I didn't want dad to just repeat after me. Like, that was probably the highest stakes. So, but like that's what I wanted to hear from him.

SPEAKER_02

Right. I but that's when we get the opportunity to do one-on-one. You preach on Sunday, thousands of pe thousands of people listening. Yeah, Billy Graham has a stadium of tens of thousands. How is it still possible that people are saved through that prayer? I got because I like what I'm getting at to do it to do it correctly. Right. So, like, but what does it look like for as pastors or evangelists to make sure it is being done correctly?

SPEAKER_01

Well, what what is Jesus' test of a disciple? By their fruits, you will know them. So I would say that do you see a change? Do you see that transformation? And it may be very subtle. It's not like, oh, you had a beer or oh, you went back to that, therefore you're not saved. No, that's not true at all. Um, but I think that it should be going back to the analogy I used a couple weeks ago, can you see that the house is occupied? Right? I mean, are are you starting to see lights come on and lights come off? And I think with biblical discernment that we all have access to, um, you don't have to be a pastor. You know, you you can see, okay, there's something different. Like I can see the demeanor change. I can see change.

SPEAKER_02

And I mean, Jordan, I mean, I never went to a Billy Graham revival, I'm sure. You did. That was back in your day.

SPEAKER_00

So you just turned 54. Yeah. No, I did not turn 54.

SPEAKER_02

But anyway, so he but would he have been years to my life, man. Would he have those that made a decision? Like, would he have him them stand up, come down? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, I do believe people they had to, because I well, um, what was it? Somebody had recently gone to something where they have people that are in the crowd, that or not in the crowd, but there too, if they see somebody to go have a conversation with them.

SPEAKER_01

So the probably the best what Francis Chan a few years ago spoke at Arrowhead. They had some big church conference and it was at the Chief Stadium, and I didn't know about it and I beat myself up for it. But I did have some friends that went to it, and they said it was the biggest prayer team they've ever seen. Like it was like the entire 50-yard line is just people with lanyards. And so Francis Chan ended it with an invitation and then said, if you made that decision, there are people with lanyards up there. So they did kind of leave it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you know, as pastors, as churches, as we do this, I think that is a huge sign. I'm not saying it saves somebody when they when you say, Hey, if you said that prayer, stand up and come to the front. That's an action stuff. That is like, to me, the boldness it takes to do that. Yeah, it's hard for somebody to do that unless there was a heart change. True change, yeah, heart change take place. So what you're saying is we need to start employing that. And we do I we do that for our people to come tell us, right? Yeah, yeah. But we do it for our conferences all the time. We do it for different engagements on a weekly basis. We even say, come and find one of us.

SPEAKER_01

But the easiest way you talk about a conference is like when we're up in the baptistry and we're ready to have conversations, when 80% of them are sobbing, like we're not we're talking ugly tears.

SPEAKER_02

Grown men.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, like like I the conversation is very simple of like something. Yes. So that that's where sometimes it's very easy. But I've had other people that come up to me and and and they're a little more stoic, but that's where you have that conversation of okay, what does that mean to you? And when we baptize, we ask the two questions. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross for your sins? Yes, but we don't stop there. Yeah, do you promise to follow him for the rest of your life as best as you know how? Not always, but by and large, if somebody is willing to make that promise in front of a room of hundreds of people, that's pretty good evidence, evidence by itself that there is a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02

I even started adding a little question before that. Do you believe that he is the Lord of your life? Yeah, and you're gonna follow him for the rest of your life. Um because right there's that confession. Yeah. So here was my follow-up question uh to that. Is as we are going through and we're reading this, the Romans Road. You know, that's I think we haven't mentioned that once one time going through Romans. This whole time. But I I think this is the point where where we get to final, yeah. It's here, yeah. Just the accumulation of it. Yeah. And so going through Romans Road, it's it is something that believers that are sharing the gospel, it is something that I would encourage everybody as we're going through Romans to remember. If you're looking for four verses to remember, this is a great starting point.

SPEAKER_01

And it's easy because Romans 3.23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

SPEAKER_02

And then it's easy to go from 3.23 to 623.

SPEAKER_00

Yep, yeah. And so double your three, keep your 23.

SPEAKER_02

And where it what it and it goes from for all have sinned to for the wages of sin is death. And then it takes a back step, so you go from six. The next one you remember is Romans 5.8. 5.8, yeah. Right? And then from Romans 5.8, you just double the five to get to 10, and then you pick up after the eight to go nine and ten. So you got Romans 10. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So by the way, Romans 5.8, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Then you get to Romans 10, 9, which is what we just talked about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Confess, yeah. Yeah. So what as the great place to remember verses to remember, make flashcards, whatever you need to do. Um, but my follow-up to this is what about the burden that some people feel that anytime they hear the sinner's prayer, that they have to repeat it? What would you encourage to those believers?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I would say the beauty of it is, is based off of our belief and based off of our understanding of scripture, is that that genuine decision you made, um, you you at that point you are in God's hands and and nobody will remove you from that. And if you view the sinner's prayer as a confession that you have to make after every time you sin, my goodness, what an exhausting way to live. And then the fear, and there's people that fear this. What if I die in sin? What if I die doing something that is not of the Lord and I don't have time to say the sinner's prayer before I die? Um, which I would guess is a lot of people that we have died and we haven't said a confessional prayer based off of the last sin that we just performed, even if it was a week ago, that if we had to walk around and say, Hey God, by the way, if I die today, I'm sorry about what I did yesterday. Um, I I think that that would just be an exhausting way to live in Christ. And it wouldn't give us any assurance.

SPEAKER_02

Because I think some of those believe a lot of believers go like, well, every time it's said, I just repeat it because I just want to double, triple, quadruple, one hundred times check that I am, I'm good. And I would say, hey, if that is where your heart posture is at, um you're still focusing on your sin more than you're focusing on the savior. And yes, there should still be a repentant heart for even the sin that may be ongoing in your life, but you need to have full assurance and confidence that that Jesus is who he says he is and he died for all of your sins.

SPEAKER_01

There was there was a youth conference a couple years ago. I think we were still youth pastors, or maybe we were just leaving youth ministry. But I had a volunteer, we a couple kids went to a conference. It wasn't here, it wasn't our conference. And she was concerned because the pastor had said, Um, you all better hope that you, if you if you were to die today, you died on a Sunday and not on a Saturday. Because if you died on a Saturday, you might end up in hell. And the volunteer came to me and was like, I was a little concerned about that statement. I would say, Yeah, if I was there, I would have, I would have, I would have told the kids, everyone stand up. Like, and I would have single file lined out that door. Yeah, let me clear some things up here real quick. But so I'm thinking like my that it tore my heart in half to hear that there's students in there thinking, oh no, well, what if I did die on a Saturday and what if I wasn't pure? The idea that, oh, you better hope you die on a Sunday, because at least on Sunday you're gonna be, you know, and I just think that's the level of graceless legalism that damns so many people and why Paul emphasizes the law. He does it again in chapter 10 to make sure that there is a distinction between if you live by the righteousness of the law, you will always fail. It is a pass-fail test, and you will always fail when you live by the righteousness of the law.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just thinking about the logistics of that. Based on what that guy's saying, you better hope you die on a Sunday. That means in his church, do they have a moment where, okay, everybody, we're gonna confess our sins to the Lord every Sunday. I mean, because that means that's mean that's what that means.

SPEAKER_01

But then my my question is then just be a Catholic and then you can confess all you want.

SPEAKER_02

I'm just saying, I'm I'm gonna I truly believe just from conversations with people, that there we have many people in our church that anytime we end a service, but we The prayer, they are repeating that.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's just an extra page of the case.

SPEAKER_02

Because they they like they are just making sure that everything is fine and good. And I would want to tell them, like, hey, be confident in Jesus more than you are yourself and what he's done for you. And so the question then became what do they what do they pray when we're going through the sinner's prayer? And this is where I would say, come alongside us and pray for the spirit of salvation to fall upon the unbelievers in the room. Pray for the people next to you, pray for the people, the unbelievers that are there hearing the word of God. And so as you hear us going into that, thank God for the salvation you have and that he is your Lord, that he is your savior, but then start praying for that spirit of salvation to fall upon the other people in the room.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm still kind of hung up on the whole, it's not, I don't think it's humanly possible to be able to confess all your sins. Because let's say you have to confess your sins at the time of salvation, that means you've got to rewind from the day you took a breath to think of every sin you ever committed and confess it. It's not possible.

SPEAKER_01

And listen, I'm thinking of every sin I've done this morning. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And those are the and of that's just what you're aware of. Because then there's sins known and unknown. So then there's sins you didn't even know you committed. So how do you ask for forgiveness of those?

SPEAKER_01

Because there's some sort of sins that aren't external, there's sins that are internal. So even the thought of I someone cuts me off and in my head I think you blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, and then I keep going about my day, I'm not going to consciously remember that moment, but I sinned, right? I had anger in my heart. So it is a it is a no-win game, and that's why I said if you live by the righteousness of the law, and Paul distinguishes in verse five and verse eight, the righteousness of the spirit versus the righteousness of the law, is that the the law, it is a 100% pass fail. There is no 90%, 80%. If you are not 100% righteous, then you are 0% righteous, and only Christ was righteous. And so it is the same mindset that Paul is speaking to the zeal of the Israelites, that they have all of this zeal, but they don't have the knowledge. That's exactly what what Paul did. They didn't connect it to Jesus. Yeah. So that's that's a good, I think, um, that's a good way to look at Romans chapter 10. And again, I'm gonna preach uh again next Sunday, and you know what I'm gonna end it with? I'm gonna end it with a version of the sinner's prayer because I believe in the sinner's prayer. So don't think that we're we're saying that it is not an effective thing. But I think as pastors, it does give us an extra responsibility to make sure that we don't have false conversions, we don't have people that have false assurance because I do think that exists.

SPEAKER_02

So well, and you gotta see what Paul's doing in this context is you've had Israel's the Jews, how have they received that salvation for so long? And it was going through the temple, it was going through their works and what they were doing, and now Paul is showing them that there is a new way to be justified and made righteous. And you have to know that they're probably asking the question, well, okay, then how do we do that? Like it, how do we rely on Jesus like that? And so he gets to this point where he's encouraging them to believe in Jesus in that way as their Lord and as their savior, and not just the works of the temple. And that's how he that's when he gets to this part in nine and ten, explaining to them, this is how you do it, this is how Jesus justifies you by believing in your heart, having a changed heart, and then confessing him as Lord. And by the way, Jews, it's not just for you. He'll go down in verse 13 and say, This is for all people, yeah, whether you're Jew or Gentile. And so he he continues that theme of leveling the playing field. But as we've talked about last week on the podcast, uh, we are coming to the end of the amount of time we have on Sunday mornings, and we did something that we don't normally do, and it took us way longer to go through the book of Romans than what we had originally scheduled out through the summer, um, because we took a couple chapters where we spent two or three weeks in those chapters. So we are coming to land the plane, but we're not through the book of Romans yet. So we're gonna be using the podcast platform to talk through the rest of the book of Romans so we can still study it. And so we talked about Romans 9 last week. You're preaching on Romans, you preached on Romans 10 on Sunday, and then now we're gonna be in Romans chapter 11 today on the podcast. And this brings up some great questions about modern day Israel. So, what do you think, Pastor Jordan, about Romans chapter 11?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, more fascinating, not easy things to understand about what Paul says. So we're talking about Israel being brought back into the fold, basically, right? What are you having about?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I just noticed an observation. My Bible in Romans is littered with notes. Like I've got underline, highlight, notes. I'm taking all these notes, all these notes. Look what happens when I get to Romans 11. Like nothing. Because Romans 12 picked back up am I picking back up? So early on in my faith, I don't do a lot of under this is like early Roger Bible where I marked it up a lot, but I'm imagining as a young Christian, I got to Romans 11, I'm like, Romans 12. Living side. Here we go, here we go.

SPEAKER_00

Now back to it.

SPEAKER_01

Anyway, so I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00

Therefore, is what chapter 12 starts with. But 11, 9, 10, and 11 all connect together.

SPEAKER_01

Um but for some reason Romans 11, I was just like, okay, I'm I'm gonna move on from this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so basically what he's getting at is what does all this mean for Israel? They have rejected the Messiah, most of them, but then Paul is basically saying the God is using the Gentiles to try and make the Israelites jealous to then come back to him and that there will be a remnant that does come back. Um, what does that look like? Who is that? Is that them today? Uh that's kind of the complicated thing that's difficult to answer. Uh, one of the things that is fascinating, and I've got to look real quick. He uh he starts chapter 11 with referring to Elijah, and I'm trying to think in this, does he get Caleb and Esau or is that already? He actually no, that was in nine.

SPEAKER_02

But like in 11, he actually starts with the same format of asking a question. You know, so like he's Yeah, did God reject his people? And he uses by no means. And the first example he uses is himself. He says, Right, I'm a I'm an Israelite. I'm from Abraham, he didn't reject me.

SPEAKER_00

But then he moves into Elijah and how he tells Elijah there will be a remnant that is saved. And so it's gonna be a small group of Israelites that are saved because they're just, as he called them, disobedient and obstinate people. They they've hardened their hearts against this Messiah that they're they're still waiting for somebody else. Uh but God is still gonna try and bring them in. Uh, but it's a kind of a fascinating thing because I if we're gleaning into what are who is Israel today versus this Israel that Paul is talking about, you get you I think you do have to go back to the distinction that he makes about Jacob and Esau and talking about loving one and hating the other, meaning he chose Jacob. It doesn't hate Esau, he just didn't choose Esau for this line that salvation would come through. So there's this chosen line of people, starting with Isaac, then uh Jacob that then becomes Israel, and then the twelve tribes come from there. Yeah, uh, there is this thread of genealogy that this is a chosen group of people. And so in that, then is are the Edomite, could it be possible that an Edomite that then believes in the Jesus, are they then a part of the chosen people? Yes. They then become a part of a Edomites is from the Esau line. Yes, right. But there's all these branches that come from Abraham. Yeah. And in that, the Israelites had a problem, or the Jewish people had a problem that they just blanketly thought, because I'm a descendant of Abraham, I am automatically going to heaven. And Paul was saying, no, that's not how this works. There is a line of people that are chosen, but if you're not within that line, you'd still need to accept this Messiah, and then you'll be grafted into that line. You're you just don't fit within the true line of Israel. So then the question being is who is the true line of Israel? Can you claim to be of you know Paul even says, Well, I'm a descendant of Benjamin, so I know I am. But then can you say that about Israel today? I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

So, like, but making that argument. Going back to the argument he's making to the first century Romans, the Israelites that he's talking about there, um, he uses the example of Elijah. Yep. And so as he uses that example of Elijah, it's almost as if he's comparing, hey, in Elijah's day, all the Israelites were rejecting God. And Elijah felt alone. Yeah, and Elijah even says, like, God, I'm I'm all by myself. Yep. They have literally killed the prophets.

SPEAKER_00

So they've torn down your altars and they've killed all the prophets, I they're gonna try and kill me too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but yet God still chose his remnant to come through Israel. And so what Paul's using as an example, although Israel rejected God, God never rejected Israel and still chose them. And he's even using the Gentiles to try and make them jealous. Yeah, and so and what Paul's comparing them to is like, hey, just like in their day, there's many of you that are still rejecting Jesus, the Messiah, God today, but that doesn't mean God is rejecting you. Right now, though, you just have to choose him. And so that's that's kind of like what I see the argument he's making right there in that first part of Romans 11, which then I believe what you're getting into is that back half of Romans 11, where he talks about now, okay, what does Israel look like or God's chosen people look like now? He's saying, Hey, the Gentiles are now grafted in to that family, um, is where I think he starts in Romans 11, 11.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and he then he kind of talks about, hey, don't get um arrogant or boastful that you have been grafted in, because just as they got grafted out, you could too uh be humble and that you're allowed into the family. Uh, but then he says that they can also be grafted back in as well if they choose to believe in Christ. So I believe that is what that starts to get into. Uh there's a lot to all this. Um, and I even brought my lesson notes, and there's so much to it. I was reading through all my lesson notes uh that I've done on my Wednesday night class, and it's just it's a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and so but like the main theme that he does talk about, number one, he's answering the question, has God rejected Israel? And he answers that as we just talked about. Paul's like, no, because I was part of Israel, I'm still here. And then what we talked about with Elijah, then he gets into like, hey, this is what it looks like now that the Gentiles are grafted in. But then he flows from that argument to say, okay, now if you're part of Israel, he even goes in and talks about all Israel will be saved. What does that mean? Like, what is he saying? Like, is all the old 12 tribes is um will all of the Jews turn to Jesus before he comes back? What do you interpret him saying by all Israel will be saved? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01

Well, but you have to read you have to read the verse right before that. Because verse 26, he says all Israel will be saved, but then in verse 25, he he says uh the Gentiles. And so he doesn't mean every individual Gentile, just as he doesn't mean every individual Israelite.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so from the Gentile perspective, my understanding is it's kind of like all tribes, nations, and tongues that you hear about in Revelation that not every single individual from every tribe, nation, and tongue will be there, uh, but there will be people from every tribe, nation, and tongue. And so then when you think about what a remnant looks like, um, so at that time of Elijah, there was the two kingdoms, you had Jehoshaphat, and then you had King Ahab, and then King Ahab was married to Jezebel. She wanted to kill Elijah. And so then of I think it was Ahab's side of the Israelites, they were a population, and I'm looking at my notes, about seven to eight hundred thousand people, and a remnant of that, and so God's remnant of only was about seven thousand people, so like one percent of the population is considered would be considered a remnant. And so it's not, I don't think it would be every single Israelite or every single Jew, similar to how every tribe, nation, nation, and tongue will be represented on a Gentile side. It's not every single person from that tribe, nation, or tongue. It is a representation of. So it makes me wonder if this kind of a similar mirror image of there will be a representation of maybe people from every tribe.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and I and I I think other I think I've seen the translation that says instead of all of Israel, it it is the fullness of Israel. And so either way you look at it, I think all of Israel could be all of those that are elect, those that have chosen. And so all of those that that in this, Paul is clearly speaking, obviously, because the the Romans 1 leading up to this point, he wouldn't be saying those that don't accept Christ. Like that, that right Paul has already given that context.

SPEAKER_00

There's a remnant of people that will accept Christ, and it's a small percentage.

SPEAKER_01

He's probably assuming that when he says all will be saved, he is referring to those that have done all of the prerequisital steps leading up to their mouth, they've believed in their heart and they have confessed.

SPEAKER_02

And that's what I would agree. Coming off of Romans 10, him making that argument. Now coming off of Romans 11, where he's talking about the Gentiles being grafted in, I think what he's talking about is the new Israel, the ones that have now have the Gentiles grafted in, those who are believed that Jesus is Lord, He is the Messiah, those that He has have given their life to Christ, he's not gonna lose them. Yeah, like those He's gonna save them.

SPEAKER_01

So almost the full number that he uses the terminology in verse 25 and all Israel in verse 26, that he's more or less saying the same thing about each each side. So that's good. That's how I would read it.

SPEAKER_02

Let's uh because this is obviously a proof text that some people would use to say or make the argument that today's Israel is the Israel of the first century. Yeah. And so let's talk about Israel. You guys ready for this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I've I I've really this is the one theological topic. I am like Mitt Romney. I am flip-flopping non-stopping. You are Mitt Romney. Very few people. I wish. How about Pierre Delecto? Pierre Delecto. Yeah, that was his Twitter faking yet. Listen, uh, for any people that don't know the Mitt Romney accusation, they all said he was a flip-flopper because he changed his mind a lot. I think a few years ago, I was an outright Christian Zionist. Like it is paramount that like protecting Israel, like we I was very dyed in the wool when it came to that. I think the more I studied it, the more I became somewhat agnostic. Where I don't know. Like I'm I'm kind of and now I think I'm kind of going to like 1948 Israel is not the same as what we're reading here. And I want to be careful with that because some people just say that's an anti-Semitic view, and I'm not saying that at all. And I'm not even saying it's impossible that it's not, but I think you have to break down what Israel was in the the old covenant. When you look at um you look at the you know, the Sinai covenant and the Mosaic law of what the old Israel was. Do we see that in the same way that we see the same covenantal relationship of what we're reading in the Old Testament? Is that identical to the 1948 edition, um, which is a a secular nation that isn't just made up of Jews, it's made up of Muslims, it's made up of Christians. Um now, is it predominantly Jewish? Of course. Um, and I think you said the statistic before we came on is it 45% of the Jews in the world. Live in Israel. Yeah. Okay. Um, and so there's there's no doubt about that. Um but again, it's just I think what we have to do is we have to be very careful with the text and we have to apply to what we see going on today because here's my concern, and I'm gonna get political and I'm probably gonna regret saying this, but here we are. What I don't like, what I don't appreciate, is when we go to war, we go to conflict, we we go up and we hand out rifles and drop bombs and do all of these things. Um, and I am viciously anti-war. I I will I will just put my cards on the table. But to use the argument, well, we have a spiritual or theological obligation to go into war, not because of any other reason but the fact that the Bible tells us we have to, and that's where I get really aggravated.

SPEAKER_02

So there's four questions kind of surrounding this whole conversation um that I wanted to ask, and that's one of them, and that is should Christians uh support the modern state of Israel? And that kind of tees up you kind of teed that up with what you just said. So, what should the Christian stance be? Should we support the modern state of Israel based on what scripture talks about and what it tells us? I'll let Jordan answer first.

SPEAKER_00

Why me? Well, because my question, I'm just curious. So they s I don't know the history. I know they became the uh who uh what was the president that made them the um that oh who's the president of the United States that kind of wrote that that made them a nation? Uh that was it true, was it Truman? Yeah, I think it was Truman. Um 48. Yeah, so I don't I don't know the full history history line, historical story of how today's Israel connects to the biblical Israel, and if they're the same group of people, I mean it's obviously the same area, and I'm just curious, can these the Israelites today do they track their genealogy to know like Paul was able to say, I'm a Benjamin, I can tell you what line I'm of, I can trace it back because that was important to them. Is that still the same today for Israelites or Jewish people that live in Israel? Is it all still the same? I just I don't know. I'm ignorant.

SPEAKER_01

Even if I were to grant that the answer is yes, I still don't think that answers the question if we have an obligation. Because I I'm paraphrasing this, and maybe you can type it in Hebrews where it says, in when a new covenant is made, the old is obsolete. I think it's somewhere in Hebrews. If if somebody could, Jaden, if you could Google that, where the old covenant or where the new covenant is made, the old is obsolete. Hebrews 7, Hebrews 8, somewhere in Hebrews, I think it says that. And so I've heard the argument made before, yeah, let's grant that the 1948 Israel is the exact Israel we're describing. It still is obsolete when we look at the new covenant, because all of all of the covenant of Israel is old uh largely old covenant theology, where Jesus came and says, I am bringing you a new covenant, and so the same promises and obligations that Christians have of the old is not necessarily the same of the new. I'm not making that argument.

SPEAKER_00

So then when you apply that, Israel returns into the church.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, can you read it?

SPEAKER_00

By speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, good. I paraphrase it pretty well. Pretty much right on. Okay. Um, so now again, I'm not saying like that's the proof text, aha, we shouldn't support Israel. But I do think that we it it is not apples to apples necessarily when speaking of modern.

SPEAKER_02

So that's what I would go, I'm gonna go back to. I think you have to define support when it comes to that. What does it mean to support Israel today? And I think many of us right now in our climate, when we hear support, we think war. We think war. We thank military support. It means whoever's Israel's enemy is our enemy. We support means, oh, we gotta support their policies, we gotta support their leadership, we have to do those things. And I would very much be against that. Like that is not the type of support when I read scripture of what it'd be. So coming off of what Hebrews says, I think many people when they hear support are still living under the old covenant mindset from Genesis 12, 1 through 3, right? When it talks about those nations who bless Israel, they will be blessed. And so that's where they get that obligation of saying that we have to support Israel, going back to that old covenant. And certain Hebrews, what you just talked about, hey, that new covenant, it makes that obsolete. So then what would support be? I don't believe it means you know they have a bad leader that we have to support the bad leader. Would we say in the old testament when Manasseh was the leader, that it'd be wise to support or King Ahab? Yeah, King Ahab, like in in Elijah's time, would we say, hey, it'd be wise to support what he's doing with Jezebel and and all those because it's or did not. Because he's over there and God would also agree as in what took place on the mountain.

SPEAKER_00

God even created a plan to get rid of King Ab. Right.

SPEAKER_02

So I would say, even using that, just because we are saying we can support them, doesn't mean we have to support if they have an evil leader in bad policy in supporting bad policy. By support, yeah, I think it means a hundred percent. Should we be praying for Israel? Should we be praying for peace to be taking place in Israel? Should we be praying for God's people who are in Israel? Yeah, or 10,000 people.

SPEAKER_00

Should we be praying for the Israelites to come to Christ?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and we should, and especially going back to what Paul says here, but I this is the analogy I would give. The Bible says honor your father and mother. It is very clear you should revere your dad, you should revere your mom, you should respect them, all of those things.

SPEAKER_00

Take care of them when they can't take care of them.

SPEAKER_01

But it also says there are there are instances in which you you are to separate from them, right? And the context is okay, in the plan, if the plan goes the way it was, if dad and mom are doing what they need to do, and you're uh the the the family dynamic should be that you honor your parents. However, there are instances where let's say mom and dad are not leading you to Christ, or you know, you you grow up and you're wanting to embrace Jesus, but they're not wanting you to, then Jesus says at that point, yes, I told you to honor them, but there's instances where in moral fallibility that, yeah, you may have to make a decision. And I actually apply that to in Israel. In a perfect world, yes, we do have an obligation to support them, but what what about when things become morally atrocious? What about moral fallibility? And and so some people would say, Well, no, our obligation is is black and white, it doesn't matter what they do, we as Christians should support them. And I'm saying that we wouldn't use that application for any other topic in the Bible, so why are we applying it to this topic? Right.

SPEAKER_02

So that's what I would say, and that's why I would even go back again. Even in the Old Testament, we have examples of God's own prophet not supporting the leadership that is going on in Israel at that time. And so using Elijah during Ahab's time is a great illustration to show hey, we as Christians today, we don't have to blindly support whoever's in leadership of the current government of Israel and support their policies of what they might be. I think of support more of a general support, kind of using what Psalm 122 says about where he says in verse six pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Jerusalem. May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels. For the sake of my family and friends, I will say, peace be within you for the sake of the house of the Lord our God. And so, like, that's the type of like general support. I think we should all be praying for Jerusalem. We should all be praying for Israel, and we should be praying that peace and salvation is going to continue to rest upon that place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, I completely agree. And I do think, again, we should support him. But there was an interview probably a year ago. Ted Cruz's Texas senator was on with Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson, I think, I've live.

SPEAKER_02

I think that was a few years ago. I think that was pretty recent.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, pretty recent. Yeah, about a year ago. It might have been about a year. Time flies. I remember where I was driving when I listened to it. I listened to it twice. Like it was good. I like Ted Cruz. I like Tucker Carlson. Granted, I think Tucker Carlson is kind of going up deepened a little bit. I liked Bowtie. You remember Bowtie, Tucker Carlson, when he was on Crossfire? Yep. And him and um they'd debate Paul Bagala. Paul Bagala and uh James Carvel.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and who was his um who was the guy that would always be a lot of times with uh Tucker Cannon. I love Paul Galaxy. Both of those, those those two sets of people are the master, I mean, those guys would destroy anybody.

SPEAKER_01

You know what ended that show? Jon Stewart went on and completely annihilated, like said, guys, what are we doing? We all need to get along, like this is ridiculous. And like it tanked like after Jon Stewart was on there, and now you like listen to Jon Stewart and you're like, bro, you're the most divisive guy on TV. Like, what it's so it's like.

SPEAKER_00

But those are like the heavyweights of debaters for both sides.

SPEAKER_01

They would duke it out. Absolutely. So, anyways, um Tucker Carlson was was talking to Ted Cruz, and I actually, in the conversation, I think there are parts I agreed with Cruz more than I agreed with Carlson. But what kind of made me uncomfortable is in the very beginning when Tucker kind of asks, okay, Ted Cruz, like you you are you are the most pro-Israel senator in the United States. Like you are hammering the drum of Israel, Israel, Israel. Like, give me your best argument for why the United States at all costs needs to do this. And the first argument that Ted makes is he goes to Genesis. He makes he makes a biblical argument. Okay, I thought he went to Deuteronomy, but it's maybe it was Deuteronomy. It was, it was, it was one of those. It was one of the one of the Torah books. It was Genesis, Leviticus, one of those. But like, and and I'm not even saying his argument was bad, but that's the type of like, okay, the first thing you bring up, the first kind of heart strings that you're trying to play is that this, everything we do, Netanyahu, who ha has done some things that I think are a little less than than good, and yet because of what it says in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, therefore, we have a blind allegiance. And I'm like, ah, and and I thought Carlson did a good job responding and saying, well, actually, that's not what every Christian would actually say in how you interpret that text.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so then to have that as your number one point to argue, it was like, oh, I'm like, could you not?

SPEAKER_01

That's it? Yeah, and and and listen, he could have made some incredible secular arguments like, hey, do you see what they're doing over in Palestine? Like, do you see some of the stuff that's going on over here? He could have made a good argument without necessarily what I saw was kind of a manipulation of make the argument without saying, hey, as Christians, we just have to do it. So get in line.

SPEAKER_00

Luke, can you do a quick search of what scripture Ted Cruz used? Because I'd like to even just read that out loud.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's a I that's a good because I remember that I heard it too, and I'm like, mm, that's pretty flimsy. And I think Carlson that goes so far back that you could totally take that out of context of what God is saying to Israel at the time.

SPEAKER_01

And I think Carlson knew he was gonna lead in with that, because I think he's probably done that in other interviews, because Carlson's response was calculated. He was ready. He knew exactly where he was going with that. So it it really is. I would encourage you, Cruz versus Carlson. It is a great interview. Um, and so yeah, I don't I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02

He uh did he reference Genesis 12, 3. Genesis 12, okay.

SPEAKER_00

So he's talking to Abraham and probably telling Abraham, whoever blesses you, I will bless, and whoever curses you, I will curse. So this is long before Israel was ever Israel. We don't even have Isaac yet. Or do we have Isaac at this time in Genesis 12?

SPEAKER_01

This is the call of Abram. Yeah, no, Isaac's not there. Um I will make you into a great nation, I will bless you, I will make your name great, you will be a blessing, I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse, and all people on earth will be blessed through you. That is what he quoted.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So that's that's there isn't even an Israel at the time. That's a stretch. Yeah. There's not even a Jacob at the time. There's not even the son that's gonna be the father of Jacob yet at that time. And there's gonna be about 75 years that pass before there's ever even the chosen Isaac to then have Jacob, that then Jacob wasn't even a believer, to then become a believer and then become Israel. So that's where I remembered that, and I'm like, ooh, whoa, that's that is not a direct, like specific to the nation of Israel with the 12 tribes, yeah, and and Jacob.

SPEAKER_01

But and this is this is the part that kind of aggravated me, as someone who who genuinely likes Ted Cruz. I think he's a good Christian, his dad was a Southern Baptist guy. I mean, he's a brilliant guy, Harvard law degree. Um, I I I like Ted Cruz. The problem is that if you're not biblically literate, like unfortunately, a lot of Christians are not, they don't understand that you can hear that and you could take away from that. Oh, okay, well, yeah, I'm a Christian. I I guess I just always be with blind faith, just have to go through with that. That that's where I get uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00

So then, as you were saying, that was his lead argument. Yeah. And it's pretty like, uh we got to be careful there. He's speaking to Abraham in a very early days. And so then to then transfer that all the way down through. I mean, there is a transfer of that is the chosen line uh from Abraham. I can see, but it does kind of become a bit of a stretch.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think I mean Ted was trying to use that as an example of the Christian should have why America and Christians in America should have blind support of Israel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and he's speaking to Tucker Carlson, who is a Christian as well. So he's using that. But like he could have led in and said, Well, Tucker, Israel's our is our most fierce and loyal um ally in the entire world. That Israel, like our relationship with Israel is incredibly strong. And if Israel is not powerful, if Israel does not have the what they need, then that is an impediment on America. I think that that's a way better argument than just going to Genesis 12 and and making an argument that actually doesn't even logically follow.

SPEAKER_00

So I might actually have said, well, there's examples such as Rahab, who chose to help the Israelites when they were, you know, about to go to war, even, or even enter into the promised land. Whatever he wanted, he could use examples. Or Romans literally what we just talked about.

SPEAKER_01

He could that if he would have gone to Romans 11, I would have said, okay, that I can at least somewhat follow.

SPEAKER_02

But so I think when we get to should Christians support the modern state of Israel, where we kind of all landed on, if you use the Genesis argument, you're not using the full scripture to be able to do it. So the general consensus is in a broad sense, we should support them. But that doesn't mean you have to support who is in charge, their policies, and the specific government of Israel. But we should support them in a broad sense of praying for them, praying for their peace.

SPEAKER_01

And we we being the church, we being individual Christians. Um, and then of course, if we had time, we could go into replacement theology. That's when it gets really funny. But I think that the church replaced that's another component.

SPEAKER_00

That's another question I want to do. But because as you were talking about, the old has gone away from Hebrews, um is made it obsolete. Yeah. Because now the church basically replaces Israel as the elect and the chosen people.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And that's what we would call replacement theology, which I think is a pretty enticing argument.

SPEAKER_02

So we'll we'll get into that second, but while we're on the government, the second question that is uh brought up a lot about this is in 1948 when the founding of Israel was uh is that prophetically significant in 1948 when it's as a component to leading into the end times, a lot of people connect make that as a key piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_01

I don't think there's enough evidence to say one way or the other. I guess would be I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

I could be convinced one way or the other. That's right. I don't know enough of the history behind all that and the why behind it and the connection if because they were not is that because they had been taken over by other nations and that never had fully come back to be Israel themselves? Is that really what it pulls together? Yeah, because in 1948 that's when they regained like who were they ruled by then, uh basically as a people? Because I mean you know, like here they're ruled by the Romans. Before that, it was the Greeks, before that, you know, Babylonians on or Persians, whatever. Who are they ruled by then prior to 1948? Do we even know? I don't I'm just curious because I don't know the whole history.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I'm a history buff, I'm embarrassed to say I don't know the answer to that. I probably should know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_00

And so then Truman's saying, as he's like, hey, we're gonna make you back to a nation, who is he basically taking it away from?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um because of course that's post-World War II. Um, we've just gotten out of the war. Um not long after. It was yeah, I mean 45 would have been the few years. We're a few years after World War II. Um, but uh, and I do know for a fact, um, that many Christians, many theologians, when it was happening, when you look at the late 1940s, they were saying, Oh, this is prophetic. This is um that there is a a big confidence that that is what was happening.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so I just don't know enough about my more modern Israelite and Jewish history to know how that all sh would shake out. And for whatever reason, I just I want to keep asking the question, are they even the same people? I don't know. Yeah. I mean Can they claim, do they even know what line of Israel they're from? Of Jacob that they're from, of the twelve tribes. Do they even talk like that today? Do they even keep track of their genealogies like they was so important in Paul's day?

SPEAKER_02

No, I think the what's mainly centered around the question is them coming off the heels of the Holocaust, them being distinguished as a nation now again, the nation of Israel. Is that significant in end time theology?

SPEAKER_01

Israel declared its independence on May 14th, my birthday, 1948, effectively breaking off from the British mandate for Palestine, the territory that had been administered by the United Kingdom under the League of Nations mandate that followed World War One. So UK.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but I think the big question is going to is this a key end time, was that a key moment to spark the end times in Revelation? So where what scripture do they use to state that that it is? Do they have a use like yeah, they go back and um they see the prophecies that are happening in Ezekiel, Isaiah, uh to kind of the nation is brought back, they're able to reclaim their land.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Ezekiel even gets into the whole there will be no walls, there will be no weapons, they will be all their neighbors they will be at peace at with. I mean, it is good times in Israel of what Ezekiel talks about. So then you compare that to where they are today, they got massive walls. Yeah, and they got a whole lot of weapons. So if you're thinking of its connection to the end times, there's a long way to go to match up with what Ezekiel says Israel will look like.

SPEAKER_02

So I So what they see it as is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Obviously, there needs to be a nation in order for them to Right, but they see it as a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Sure. And then they see it also as the because like what it was like over 2,000 years, it was like 2,000 years that they'd been dispersed. Um and so ruled by another nation. And so now that they're coming back and it's seen as fulfillment and set the stage for what he talks about in Romans 11, what we just kind of went through, and then in Revelation is kind of the people who argue for it being part of end time.

SPEAKER_00

So I would say there has to be a nation in order for them to top it.

SPEAKER_01

It's a necessary step. But if me and my buddies say, hey, we just started the nation of Israel and we convince a bunch of people to believe it, doesn't mean it's the nation of Israel. So is it a step that the nation be uh be started? Yes. Yeah. But it you still then would have to take the next step of saying this is the nation of Israel, and that that is, I think, the hang up for many people.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So what are we now eighty years down the line? Yeah, almost eighty years.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's the premillennial dispensationist belief that uh it is a major step in God's prophetic plan.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and see what's crazy is I I'm premillennial. So I I'm I'm pre. We've talked about that, but I I don't think I'm dispensationalist. Even though John MacArthur was, that's one that I've got.

SPEAKER_02

So, like an easy summary of like what that means is like the people who believe in um what's the sh TV show or what's the movies that came out? The left behind sea. They're the left behind.

SPEAKER_01

They believe, yeah, dispensationalists would believe in a literal rapture, and I think it's John something Darby. That's actually a very late um we could do a whole episode on rapture.

SPEAKER_00

I was just gonna end dispensation. We've even talked about that because we need to uh there's gonna be a lot of people listening, they're like, what does this mean?

SPEAKER_01

But again, I'm pre so you can all dispensationalists are pre-millennial, but not all premillennials are dispensationalists.

SPEAKER_00

But see, you need to define what all those terms are.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. I just use a bunch of jargon. Um, and listen, I actually would be really excited because I think I'm the only pre around like this table. So that would be a fun conversation. A hopeful pre. Yeah, and you should be a hopeful pre.

SPEAKER_00

Well, but you're also talking tribulation in the sense of does millennialism pre-post are you talking tribulation? Because then it's talked in terms of pre-mid and post-tribulation as well. So are those all the same kind of terms or do those mean the same thing?

SPEAKER_01

But I I believe that that God's people will be saved, um, being pre and so and and and we prior to any kind of tribulation. Yes, yes, yeah, just like the the when you look at the prophets of the old testament, um, you know, prior to the destruction of the world, before the flood, God raises up Noah and saves Noah and his family. Um, and you could go on, you know, throughout the the Old Testament to show that. So that's a different conversation. Um but we should do that another.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I've even kind of lost track of where we left off there. Um what was it we were with Israel as a nation? Is that the step? Probably. Um, I mean, they need to be it, because they're gonna have to be someone's gonna have to come after them as a a people or a nation that leads into basically the Battle of Armageddon. Yeah, and that's where in Ezekiel he talks about is it Gog uh that comes in to try and invade and God God then intervenes because Israel has no weapons, they are defenseless. That does not match with the current Israel today at all. There is no defenseless Israel.

SPEAKER_01

Have you seen photos of Israel or like videos of Israel? I mean, they look like like they're from the 23rd century. Like, I mean, they've got these like they they are like stacked.

SPEAKER_00

Well, that's what like I and big walls. I like what you said.

SPEAKER_02

I like what you said possibly, because this I would say, yeah, it's possible that what happened in 1948 and the founding of Israel is prophetically significant. It's possible. I have a hard time speaking very matter-of-factly about situations like that, especially when it comes to the end times.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it's one of uh several pieces to a puzzle. Yeah. Because I mean, the biggest thing I hear people talk about is there needs to be a temple to sacrifice, and that there's talk about this trying to sacrifice the red heifer, the pure red heifer, and bringing back the sacrifice. Because how long has it been since they've done sacrifices? As true Israelites that don't believe in the Messiah Jesus, um, how long has that even been?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, you look at the wall across God's.

SPEAKER_00

It's massive, it's it's gigantic. It looks like a Hoover Dam. Like there's nobody getting through that. It's not just a small chunk, it is goes all around. It's crazy. You read Ezekiel and it's about there are no walls and there's no weapons. They've even turned their weapons into farming tools, I think. They've it's just there's there's nothing that they have to be worried about. I'm watering the crops with my M16. So is it a it's a piece of the puzzle, but it there's it's one of those thousand-piece puzzle sets, you know. I mean, there's so much more that has to happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So my last two questions might be a little bit quicker. Is I hope they are. Yeah. Well hungry. Number one, are the Jewish people uh so third question, are the Jewish people still God's chosen people?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, as in that's well, because has God turned away from them? I don't think so. But is there also a component that the new chosen people are the church is the church?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Also agree with that too. Also, even before the going back to your end times thing, before there is this revival within Israel or the Jewish people, the the it talking Paul talks about the Gentile, a certain number of the Gentile, which is the every tribe, nation, and tongue has to come about first. So once all the nations are reached, then the Israelites will have this kind of revival where there's a remnant of Israel, I think, from every tribe of Israel that then comes to back and believes in Christ. So there is, oh my goodness, there's so many steps that have to be completed. There's some nuance.

SPEAKER_02

I would say the the Romans, the Romans 9 through 11 kind of answers that question of that they are not our Jewish people still God's chosen people, they are not automatically saved through their ethnicity. Yeah. Um, but they do remain chosen in regards to God's gonna use them for his specific redemptive plan to fulfill his promise.

SPEAKER_00

Has God walked away from his from his promise to Abraham that then came through Isaac, then to uh Jacob that became Israel, where they were his covenant people that carried his law, that the Messiah came through. Is he walking away from them? I even Paul talks about that. Has has his promise to them failed? No. But he's kind of telling them, but you guys are walking away from them. But you walked away from me, but you walk away from him.

SPEAKER_02

Because he laid out these promises to you, sh pointing towards the Messiah, and you guys are saying, and walking away from the Messiah. So he is saying, like, God has still chosen them, but they are not choosing him.

SPEAKER_00

And and I can't remember where it is, it's in Luke. Jesus is even sad by that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So I would say that clearly Israel has a role in God's redemptive plan. There's no there's no debating that. But to say that Israel are God's chosen people, but then we also see who also becomes God's chosen people, Gentiles. And that's the thing. And so yes, they are chosen people in the way that I am my mom's chosen son, but my brother is also my mom's chosen son.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so that's where, like, so to answer the is Israel God's chosen people, I think we would all say not automatically through their ethnicity, but uh through their relationship with Christ, which then brings into what many people will say, well, oh, when God you when you see Israel in the Bible, now that just references the church. The people would say the church replaced Israel. So do you believe the church replaced Israel? Completely 100%.

SPEAKER_01

Because this is what you talked about earlier with replacement theology. Yeah. I think you have to go to Ezekiel 36, 37. I mean, we could go to other passages.

SPEAKER_00

Well, listen, what is Ezekiel?

SPEAKER_01

I think the reclamation, when it talks about the reclamation of Israel, and so again, the issue, the issue with this debate and replacement theology, which I think is it has some good arguments, is that we are defining things so differently, or not so differently, but ways that we don't even know exactly which Israel we're describing when we're talking about the replacement itself. So to me, I have to fully understand what is being replaced before I say that the church is fully replacing it. If that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_02

Well, like I I d I disagree with replacement theology. I don't think the church replaces Israel. I think using again Romans 11, yeah, it the church is added on, like it is grafted in. It that Israel expands now to include it.

SPEAKER_01

Because to replace something when you replace something, what once existed is now one with it it not that it disappeared, but it becomes one with the church. And I don't think we see that. No. I don't I don't in in modern day, I don't think you could make a good argument for that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I guess in a sense, the church you can't it's not to say it replaced it, it just became the collection of all of God's chosen people, both Gentile and Jew. Uh the Jew, the Gentile seems to be the bigger number, and God still has a place in his heart for the Jewish people or the Israelites, with the hopes that they will then also be a part of the the collection of believers.

SPEAKER_02

Because I think the question what people are getting at is the church now replaces Israel on receiving the promises God made to Israel.

SPEAKER_00

I I think you instead of using the term the church, it's just it's the collection of believers. Those who believe in Christ are now God's chosen people. Yeah. Whether that you that is a Jewish person, Israelite, slash Israelite, or a Gentile.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that's why that's why I don't use the terminology of replacement theology. I do believe that, you know, again, we're grafted in, yeah, and now it is expanded upon. So complicated stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of people. So do you think anybody's gonna leave our church because of our who we claimed Israel is or is not, or if they're chosen.

SPEAKER_01

This is the one that I knew people would get the most fired up about. Um and I feel like I don't know what other hot button taught. We're running out of hot button. We've we've we've aggravated everyone at this point. So um, if we haven't said anything that you don't disagree with, then you haven't listened long enough, basically.

SPEAKER_00

So or send us something and we'll disagree with you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

So Romans 10, uh, we talked about Romans 11. Um, we will close our Romans series next week. And I think I'm gonna do Romans 16. Now that I was looking through though, I'm like, man, Romans 14 is really good. Um and so we got the podcast to cover. Whatever. We got a bunch of Romans to cover if whatever I don't preach on. So we will see you on Sunday as always, 9 a.m. and 10 30. Uh but if we don't see you Sunday, we will see you next week as always for Make Heaven Crowded.