Leading Through Change: Lessons from 30 Years in Law Enforcement. with Terri Wilfong

What does it really take to lead a police department through meaningful, lasting reform? In this episode of the 21CP Pod, we sit down with Terri Wilfong, veteran law enforcement leader, 21CP consultant, and former Chief of Police in Greenville, South Carolina, for a candid conversation about leadership, culture change, and what it means to serve both your department and your community.

Terry draws on three decades of experience across multiple agencies, including the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, the Kentucky State Police, and the Louisville Metro Police Department, to share hard-won lessons about what separates good leaders from bad ones and how she learned as much from the latter as the former.

From navigating federal oversight and a major departmental merger, to becoming the first outside chief in Greenville's history, Terry has seen firsthand how resistance to change can paralyze an organization and how the right leadership can slowly, steadily turn the ship around. She talks about the power of empowering middle managers, the importance of getting out of the ivory tower, and why building relationships is not just good politics but essential police work.

The episode closes with Terry's message to police chiefs navigating today's uniquely challenging landscape: you need each other now more than ever, and there is no shame in asking for support.

Transcript

Deborah Spence 0:09

Hello, and thanks for tuning in to the 21CP Pod, Perspectives on Policing, brought to you by 21CP Solutions. I'm your host, Deborah Spence, and this is where we bring together leading voices to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing law enforcement today. Whether you're a practitioner, a policymaker, or simply someone who cares about public safety, you've come to the right place. Welcome back to the 21 CP Pod. Today we're joined by Terry Wolfong, an experienced police leader, a trusted voice in national reform efforts, and one of 21 CP's consultants. Terry spent 30 years in law enforcement, including seven years as the chief of police in Greenville, South Carolina. Her career spanned service with the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, the Kentucky State Police, and the Jefferson County Police Department. And she then became a lieutenant colonel with the creation of the consolidated Louisville Metro Police Department, giving her firsthand experience navigating large-scale organizational change. 21CP has most recently worked with Terry as part of the monitoring team in Baltimore, Maryland. And she is also part of our work to stand up 21 CP risk. But I'm excited to have her here to talk about leadership, reform, and what it really takes to make change stick. So, Terry, welcome to the pod. Thank you. To get started, can you share a moment in your law enforcement career that really helped shape how you approach leadership?

Terri Wilfong 1:41

I believe it's going to start early on. You gotta realize I started policing when there was a big pushback for women not to be involved. So going through that realm and all the different positions I held in different agencies that I worked in, that the common denominator that I saw so much was just, gosh, so much lack of leadership. There was no not a lot of direction. There was not any type of mentorship. There was no type of succession planning. It's kind of like you you learned it on your own and kind of winged it. But I I mean, I worked for some really good people, then I worked for some really bad people. And I think I learned the most, might sound a little cliche, but I think I learned the most from people that I thought were really bad leaders of what I didn't want to be and how to treat people. And that really got me started with I wanted to be a leader in the organization because I wanted to make people feel that they were wanted and how needed they were in the agency.

Deborah Spence 2:37

So interesting, particularly when you mention uh lack of succession planning. You know, nobody is ever in a position forever, but you do see in a lot of organizations that nobody is thinking ahead to who's coming up behind them and how to cultivate the next generation, or it's very rare to see. But having led uh police departments and worked closely with other agencies that uh including some under federal oversight, has that helped evolve your view of leadership? You know, seeing what makes someone a more effective leader when they're in a high-stakes environment?

Terri Wilfong 3:10

I I think it does because especially when you have a federal oversight, is as you know, they look at the agency and basically do a synopsis of things that need to make change. And I got one that we were under, we were under federal oversight, and the chief at the time had been fired. So they brought an outsider in. Never had an outsider in our agency before. And that was an eye-opener. And at first we resisted. Change is difficult and we've resisted, but learning from a person outside that had so many more experiences than we did inside really opened my eyes in regard to leadership. It doesn't just have to be one way, and learning from other people who had different experiences. I think working with an individual that came from a different department that took over our agency, and we were labeled as a corrupt agency. And it's very frustrating because I knew I wasn't corrupt. People I worked with directly, they were not corrupt, but you kind of get that stigma with the community, and it's hard to get out from underneath that. So it took an outside person to come in, bringing true leadership of what that looked like and how you get the community more involved in the agency than we ever did before. So I learned a lot in that aspect. But being under consent decree is not a pleasant experience, it's not a good experience. It means your agency isn't doing something right. But what it did do, it helped us to get into the proper practice of what policing was all about. Looking at policing in a different perspective, that you're really there for the community, not just to go get bad guys. You're there to help quality of life, those type of things. So it was eye-opening for me. And I learned a lot on that aspect. And that carried me with my leadership as I grew and got different ranks and different agencies that I went to that really helped me look at things differently than I had in the past.

Deborah Spence 4:59

So that was a new leader coming in from outside the agency, uh, at presumably an agency where that didn't happen very often. Um, but you've worked in several different agencies over your career. Do you find as a leader moving into a new agency that there are things that you should do or need to do in order to become a part of that culture and help inspire the people under you to follow you in your direction?

Terri Wilfong 5:24

Most definitely. And it's one of those you don't make change too fast. You kind of look at what you have and where you're at. And it is to me, it's being around the organization, talking with people, getting to know people, going out to your districts in the patrol division, going in CID, not just sitting in the ivory tower as they call that. You can't learn the organization. And then going outside into the community, it's making all those neighborhood meetings and different group meetings that we have. And sometimes you go to places they don't love the police at all. And can you at least have a conversation, a simple conversation where they'll listen? But I found a lot of times, especially then the community felt like the police department was not listening to them. And they were absolutely correct because we weren't listening to them of what they wanted, what they considered a priorities and what was important to them. And we weren't doing that. So that really helped me going into as a deputy chief and forming the new government and the new police department. And then when I became a police chief, I was the first outsider in that department in the history of the department. So I wasn't getting a lot of love at first when I first got there, but that's okay. It's uh time changed and what a great experience that was for me. And I was very fortunate to be able to have that position as long as I did.

Deborah Spence 6:43

That is really fascinating to be the first outside chief in a community, but not only is the agency not used to that, the community is not used to that, right? Um what do you think is the most surprising lesson about um leadership or team dynamics that you've seen? What is what has challenged your expectations as you've worked with different agencies across the country?

Terri Wilfong 7:10

Oh my gosh, there's such a long list of that. A lot of the challenges is that when you get in positions or especially like a team environment that you have is how can I say this without saying something that doesn't sound appropriate? Is I I would find that once I got I started getting promoted and people that I thought were really sharp and did great things, that once I became equal rank with them, and I'm like, that's not really the case here. I found that they were delegating a lot of things to other people and then taking full credit for it. As I climbed and I just said, Oh my gosh, I couldn't believe that they would do that, take all the credit from someone else. Because, you know, as we as I teach, especially with what I do now, is you take as a leader, you take blame. You're in charge, it's your fault. But you give credit to everyone else and you take no credit because they're the ones doing the work, not you. You just kind of give direction. And my big focus was to take care of my people, you know, mentor develop teaching, guide these people, not covering stuff up in any way whatsoever. They're wrong, they're wrong, but it's really to support them. It's easy to support our people when they're always right, but when they make a mistake, do we support them or do we execute them? And the police. So I think it's kind of really working with your people. And I felt pretty good is that uh when I made lieutenant, is my the team when I was a sergeant, they're like, You're you're leaving us, you're abandoning us, how can you do this to us? And I'm like, I'm not leaving. I'm just making lieutenant, I'll be back, I'll be back. Um I never went back and I would see them, and they would always remind me of it. But that kind of makes you feel good is that they didn't want you to go. And it wasn't because I was letting them run them, I could do whatever they wanted to. It's just really working with them and being out there with them. I think that's important to do. You can as I get again, I'll go back to you can't do your job sitting from an office. And I found so many people were sitting from the office trying to give direction when I'm like, you have no idea what's going on because you're not out there.

Deborah Spence 9:09

I can think of so many friends and colleagues over the years who are excited when a boss gets promoted, not because they're happy for the boss, but because it gets that boss out of their space, right? So what a much better legacy to have your staff be sorry for your promotion in the sense that they don't want to lose you from the team.

Terri Wilfong 9:30

Yeah, that that was a good feeling. So, but it's it's interesting. You know, I retired as a chief and a deputy chief. And you know, and I still hear from people, which I think that's pretty good. Not that they want anything. It's like I just had my birthday two days ago, and the people reaching out to me. I I mean, it kind of it's kind of touching because you haven't seen them in years, but they still they'll still still reach out to you. So it's it's kind of nice. You know, I don't miss the job, I miss the people. That's who I miss.

Deborah Spence 9:56

Makes a lot of sense. And it's a sign, right, that you made a difference when you were there, that they still think of you after you're gone, right? Um change can be really challenging in policing, right? Everybody jokes that police officers hate the way things are and change. Um can you maybe think of a story or an example of um a department navigating a major shift uh successfully, and maybe what leadership actions you took or you saw others took that helped keep people engaged and aligned and and moving in the right direction?

Terri Wilfong 10:39

I had a city manager give me a two-page list of change he wanted made within that department, because being the first outsider. And it's it's a long list, but the most difficult thing to change and the thing that needed to change the most was the culture of the organization. And it took uh years. It's not an easy change, it's a slow change of getting to know your people, getting to get them to learn to think in a different manner, in a different way, going in a different direction. Because the words I hated the most is why do we do this? Well, because we've always done it that way, even though it's not working, we still do that. So I made a tremendous amount of change. I'll I'll just give you for instance, is I empowered people. What I walked into, unless you were a captain, you weren't allowed to make decisions. So changing the empowerment to sergeants and lieutenants is this is your responsibility, this is your job, this is what you do, and to empower them to make decisions, it took a while for them to take ownership of those decisions. But once you could see the change, it was tremendous. I mean, it took years, it wasn't overnight, but it was a big shift in the organization to empower people. And I think when you empower people, it really helps the organization because they have more buy-in, they feel like they're more part of the organization. And that was something that I saw. It took years, of course, to get there, but it was a tremendous amount of change. And when you see people empowered where they're allowed to make decisions, their whole attitude in the department changes. And it filters down all the way through the agency with their officers or with your professional staff or whoever it may be. But that took a long time. And uh, I had a, they're called solicitors in South Carolina. When I first got there, he goes, You got a big ship to turn in this organization. And then when I was thinking about leaving, he called me one day and he goes, Congratulations, you've turned the ship. Now the community can see that it and then that told me it's time to go and let somebody else take over the organization.

Deborah Spence 12:38

That's fantastic that he came back and and said that. And could see the change. You're new to the agency and you're trying to convince these people that you believe in them to make decisions and to control their immediate environments. But that's a big risk for a person to take and trust you at your word. I can see that being a slow process of, you know, somebody's got to be the first one to try this and see what happens. And then over time, they can more and more people would take ownership.

Terri Wilfong 13:09

Well, I like taking risk. But you got to be careful in the risks that you take. But I like taking risk. Hey, look, we're gonna try this. It's different. If it doesn't work, then we won't do it anymore. But if it does work, look what all it can entail to slowly make this change because change is very, very difficult. People are scared of it, they want to hold on to it, they're afraid of losing power, those type of things. But if you give opportunities to people who have different ideas, different concepts and run with it, I mean, it's game-changing. It can really help an organization grow tremendously. And I saw people grow big time. I really pushed education. I sent people to a lot of training outside training that they didn't have opportunities before so they could see what other other places are doing and to kind of get them out of this little small world that they we were in, that there's a big world out there and there's other ways of doing things.

Deborah Spence 13:58

So, what's a leadership challenge that you've seen repeatedly across agencies that surprised you? And how did leaders successfully address it? And that could either be that the challenge is surprising that it happens so many places, or it could be how you've seen a leader successfully address it that surprised you and made you go, like, oh, that was a great way to handle that.

Terri Wilfong 14:20

I've learned so much from leaders that did a lot of stuff outside and then trying to blend inside with why they're doing what they're doing. And I think there was a disconnect there. I'll just give you an example of um, we got this new training center built. The uh city council voted for this big renovation that because it was a dump. We needed to get it done. So got it done. It was beautiful. We had this tremendous Christmas party we always had in the police department, so we made it big. So I invited all the council members, city manager, the mayor, they all came. And I thought, well, this is great. They're getting to meet the officers. This is good bonding time. Then after the party, the next day, oh my gosh, I got blasted from inside my department. I mean, blasted. It's kind of like this was our party, this was not their party, they shouldn't have been invited. So I'm like, okay, so this is a department of 250. So I I heard. So what I addressed it. I went all the department. I'm like, this is the reason why that I invited them there. Should I have told you up front they were coming? I'll take the hit. Probably so. But the reason I brought them there is this is who decides our budget. This is who we work for, this is who decides a lot of things, and these are the people that voted for us to get this renovation. I wanted them to see the outcome and for you guys to build a relationship with council members, the city manager, and whatever, because these are the people that we work with and they support us. And once you get to know people and a face with a name, it makes things so much easier. And then it's kind of, and you're going to get your naysayers no matter what you do. But then I had them finally look at it. I remember this one guy looked at me, he goes, That's why you're the chief. I said, Well, I'll gotta take that as a compliment, I think. But something that small, I mean, to me, I got it right away. But some of my others, it's kind of like the people that came to me and were mad at me, I was kind of really surprised at them with that. Even though it was very, very small inside the department, it was like a big explosion happened. How could I invite these people? So I thought that now that I look back, it's kind of funny. But back then I'm just like, oh my goodness, we got a lot of work here to do. But once I gave the why, they were okay with it. Not that they loved it, but they were okay with it.

Deborah Spence 16:39

Um, I think that transparency of why is important, right? It's people don't need to like it, but if they understand it, it's easier to move forward as opposed to you just saying, because I said so. Nobody likes that, right? Nobody likes that. Well, I would really appreciate you taking the time to come and chat with me today and and talk about leadership and policing.

Terri Wilfong 17:02

Uh, is there any last thoughts you'd like to leave our listeners with? I think now as a leader, it's more difficult than it's ever been. So I think they're leaders now, especially police chiefs, they're they're facing things that I I never had to face. So I think they need a lot of support. And I think with IUCP, 21 CP, I think other organizations, I think they need a lot of support. And I don't know if guidance is the word, but we're kind of they're in a they're in an area that we've never been in before, and there's no playbook on how to do it. So I'm I'm hoping that police choose maybe through their states or through something, have some type of venue or somewhere where they could get together and just say, you know, what do you think? What are you doing? And and sharing. I know I did that as a chief and deputy chief in the state, just someone, but now I think they need more working together than they ever have before because of what's happening. So I wish them nothing but the best. And I I teach all over the country, and I I really like when I got police shoes in my classes and just talking about what they're facing today. So I commend them. I think it's a very tough job right now. I don't care where you're at, but it's a very tough, tough job, and I wish them nothing but the best.

Deborah Spence 18:13

I'm so grateful to Terry for taking the time to speak with me today. Here at 21 CP Solutions, we're committed to making public safety work better for agencies, for officers, and the communities they serve. If today's conversation resonated with you, we'd love to connect. Terry Wolfung and the rest of our team are ready to help your agency build stronger relationships, whether that's with your staff or with your community. You can reach us at info at 21cpsolutions.com or by phone at 844-767-2172. New episodes of the 21cp Pod drop regularly. You can find us on our website, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify, and follow us on LinkedIn to stay in the loop on everything we're working on. And one final note our theme music was composed by Rachel McCullough. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. We'll see you next time.