Recruiting Smarter, Not Louder: Research-Driven Police Recruitment with Sensis LE

Recruitment remains one of the toughest challenges in law enforcement, but the audience of potential recruits may be far larger than most agencies assume. In this episode, host Deborah Spence talks with President Jose Villa and Senior Account Director Dallas Thompson of Sensis about their national "Call to Serve" research, a survey of more than a thousand job seekers exploring how the public perceives policing careers and what actually moves people to apply.

The conversation covers why nearly six in ten respondents viewed law enforcement positively, the three recruitment personas the research identified (career changers, non-traditional potentials, and security-seeking suburbanites), and why so many agencies focus on only one of them. Dallas and Jose also dig into what recruitment messaging and imagery resonate, why authenticity matters so much (including the risk of AI-generated photos backfiring), and how agencies with limited budgets can target their efforts more strategically across the full recruitment journey.

To learn more about Sensis or to download their research, visit: https://www.sensisagency.com/lawenforcement

Transcript

Deborah Spence 0:10

Hello, and thanks for tuning in to the 21CP Pod, Perspectives on Policing, brought to you by 21CP Solutions. I'm your host, Deborah Spence, and this is where we bring together leading voices to discuss the challenges and opportunities facing law enforcement today. Whether you're a practitioner, a policymaker, or simply someone who cares about public safety, you've come to the right place. So today on the 21 CP pod, I am talking with Dallas Thompson and Jose Villa of Sensis. One thing we all know is that recruitment continues to be a challenge in the law enforcement field. And Sensis has been working to help agencies better understand the marketplace and target their recruitment efforts much more effectively. So, gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me today.

Dallas Thompson 1:02

Deborah, thank you so much. Really pleased to be here. My name is Dallas Thompson, as Deborah mentioned. I've been a leader in the law enforcement recruitment space for um over 10 years now, uh working closely with Sensis. A lot of our background in that has grown out of our military recruitment work. Uh but this is a focus and it's a practice in our uh agency. Jose?

Jose Villa 1:25

Hi, everybody. Uh yeah, my name is Jose Villa. I'm uh president and founder of Sensis. Um I founded and kind of oversee our Sensis LE uh law enforcement recruitment practice. Uh also have a background in military recruitment before we got into uh law enforcement recruitment, and I lead the overall strategy for all of our law enforcement client work, um, you know, ranging from LAPD to San Diego police departments, all different size, you know, law enforcement agencies in terms of like large urban, kind of mid-size as well as smaller departments, and then also working with state and uh federal law enforcement agencies. Uh we thought today would be really um helpful and kind of be a good kind of jumping off point to present some research that we did. So, in addition to doing law enforcement recruitment for law enforcement agencies all over the country, uh Sensis LE, we're really big believers in having you know high-quality, actionable data uh to guide all of our efforts. And so over the course of the last four or five years, we've been uh producing ongoing research on kind of the law enforcement recruitment market and understanding kind of you know what are prospects thinking, what are you know what is the potential audience for new sort of entrance into the law enforcement career uh world? And so part of that we've uh been doing this research, uh it's called a call to serve, and it's a uh national survey that we've been doing. And so we're gonna turn it over to Dallas to kind of walk us through the first half of this uh research.

Dallas Thompson 2:50

All right, thank you, Jose. And what I'm gonna go through very quickly is the executive summary. We took a little bit, talk a little bit about our methodology, and then go into the key findings, which is really the meat of what we uncovered. Um, the big aha moment in the executive summary is really that almost 59% of the people that we we engage with uh viewed law enforcement positively. Many were interested in law enforcement careers, and the thing that we found is that law enforcement careers uh really offer the qualities that many job seekers are looking for. Um so there's a great match between those things. Uh the methodology itself, it was a a over a thousand respondents uh based across the board on all quotas to make it representative. Uh the ages were, of course, 18 to 54, which are those, and all 50 states were uh sampled, oversampled in certain states with large populations. And really, these were anybody who searched for a job within the last five years, and that really kind of uh focused the type of folks that we were engaging and trying to reach with our study. Really kind of looking at the uh key findings, uh as I said, there's a very, very high positive uh perception of law enforcement. 59% of those engaged had a positive, and with on top of that, 23% were neutral. So there is uh space there um for receptionist to messages about recruiting. I would consider it was a nice sizable number about a quarter of the folks. Uh 38 percent said that they what might consider. Um so there is a sizable chunk of the population that would consider law enforcement, so they are right for the outreach that uh we uh want to engage with to get them interested. There were specific things with certain demographics that we saw the more propensed males that may be white or Caucasian, college educators or more were very propensed. Military veterans, of course, and those who are politically conservative are also overpropensed to law enforcement careers. With that said, also looking at the media habits of those who we engage, many are heavy TV watchers, um, heavy, very heavy social media users, uh, three to four hours a day. So those are the places that we know that we can reach those who are interested in law enforcement and would propens to find out more information about the opportunity.

Jose Villa 5:01

And one point on the social media I wanted to emphasize we found that there's some kind of there's a little bit of unique social media behavior in terms of a platform like X, um, where they were much more likely to be using that platform than we kind of see the general population. So some interesting tidbits there in terms of you know some of the social platforms that are not as broadly popular, but very popular with this audience.

Dallas Thompson 5:22

Absolutely. Um we found with the job seekers who are age eligible, very values-driven, um, and looking for a sense of purpose. And that's why when I mentioned earlier about this, lining up the career, the things that are offered in a law enforcement career, lining up with what job seekers are seeking is very, very aligned. Um, they're looking for things that aren't just a paycheck, the ability to serve their community. Um, they want it to be important and part of their identity. All these things are offered by law enforcement careers. Also, serving others and upholding law and order are one of the things that are most appealing about the opportunity. And those are the things that drive the types of benefits that would be highlighted in any type of communication. Uh serving and protecting the community, earning a steady income, all of those things, both tangible and intangible, form the foundation of the things that will appeal to those who maybe propens to pursue a law enforcement career. Also, some of the things that we found that were unappealing that would have to be addressed in the communication. Uh, we wanted to be conscious of those things that are the barriers. Um, of course, the the number one was that it's dangerous. That's the perception that people have, the stress of the national or dialogue in the community about law enforcement, which is uh important to overcome because of course you're dealing not just with the individual, but those within their family and within their circle who uh have influence on their decision-making process. Those are some of the key findings that give us a sense of who this audience is and the things that would help to reach them, things that they're seeking. And now I'll pass it over to Jose to talk a little bit about the reaction to some of the law enforcement messaging and advertising and the things that we've observed uh in our experience. Jose.

Jose Villa 6:57

Thanks, Dallas. Yeah, so um one of the things we did as part of the research was to also to do some high-level message testing to see kind of what kinds of ad content, both at a high level, and we also tested some specific ads from different law enforcement agencies to kind of see how the audience reacted to them. So one of the first things we did was look at sort of generic, like how you're representing you know, police officers in terms of what makes them more trustworthy, um, again, to address some of those obstacles that Dallas brought up. And so we had one test where we had basically two officers who were looking very stern and kind of looking into the screen. And then we had another one that were much more friendly and uh personable, and that one performed much better. 79% preferred the sort of more friendly, affable imagery to the sort of stern representation of an officer. And there were really no differences among segments, which I'll talk about in a second. We also created a segmentation schema. So, really across all demographic groups, it was the same reaction. We also tested a kind of a generic message where we showed which message would be considered more trustworthy. Again, sort of the on one extreme, an image where a group of police officers were looking again very serious, arms crossed, more sort of an authority figure. And then we had an image where uh it showed a sense of community among the officers. And again, we saw the more casual, friendly image uh significantly outperformed the other one. 85% preferred the uh friendlier image, um, and again, across all segments. We also tested like what kinds of images would be most representative of a career in law enforcement. And again, these are the kind of images that you'll see regularly in a lot of law enforcement recruitment ads. So showing candets in an academy, uh showing um somebody in the community uh in a um embracing uh, you know, like a child in the community. Uh then we had an image where you know you had an officer who was arresting somebody. Uh, and then you had another one again, kind of like a community being helpful, uh supporting local business. And and what was interesting here is that we saw the image showing the officer um arresting somebody was the preferred image in terms of being most representative of what a career in law enforcement was, right? So, again, that's more of like what do people think is authentic and real. We also showed an array of images ranging from you know female officers in kind of a stern pose to an officer talking to somebody in the community, uh, a canine unit, you know, uh officers in a in a classroom setting, officers stopping somebody for an infraction, kind of like a SWAT tactical image, um an image with a police vehicle with lights on, kind of inactive um activity, and then kind of again another tactical uh image showing it looks like what like almost like a SWAT or tactical um uh group of officers. And here again, interestingly, that the image that was most representative to our audience by 25% selected it was the image of the cruisers of the of the vehicles with the sirens on and the lights. Um, that was overwhelmingly selected, and only and second to that would have been the the officer uh issuing a citation. So again, we're seeing that people prefer images that sort of they think are authentic and true representations of what's involved. Yeah, so that those were the kinds of things. So friendly appearances, and then also showing the reality of what it is to serve as a police officer to work in law enforcement. And then we asked people, you know, to respond to also some sample messaging. Again, a lot of the messaging that you see from law enforcement recruiters is very similar and there's a lot of overlap. And so we tested different slogans, generic in sense, but uh serve, protect, and defend was one, cops who care was two, good careers for good people was three, and then come home to a better career. And the big winner there was serve, protect, and defend. Uh, 56% of participants selected that one. And then a distant second was cops who care. And then lastly, we tested um actual ads from two different departments, one from San Diego Police Department, one of our clients, and then another one from Baltimore Police Department. So we showed an ad from San Diego Police Department and asked people how they reacted to it. There, they generally like the ad. It's basically an ad that shows two officers kind of with, you know, very purposeful look on their face, and then in front of vehicles, it looks like on a crime scene, almost looks like something out of like a CSI TV show. It did okay. They did find it very memorable, the ad, but when we asked questions about did did this want to make you seek more information, was it relevant to you? We saw a kind of a little bit more of a mixed bag in terms of the reaction. And remember, the point of these ads is to get somebody to take the next step and to look into it more uh further. And so in that sense, the ad didn't perform as well. And then we compared it to an ad from Baltimore Police Department that says now hiring, join for good. Um, and this performed much better. Um, this ad was again more effective in getting people to take the next step, look further, in addition to being memorable and something that um that they liked generally. So uh it had a very different feel, and again, it it integrated some of that friendly imagery that we were talking about earlier uh into the ad. The other thing we did with this research is we created segments, and segments are basically just a fancy research term for creating like personas or kind of like groupings of audiences that are very similar. We used that data and then we essentially appended it with a even larger database, national database, from a company called MRI Simmons, to essentially create these three segments and personas of kind of a typical high potential law enforcement recruitment audience. So we had three that ultimately came out of our analysis. Um, the first one was called career changers, the second one was the non-traditional potentials, and the third was uh security-seeking suburbanites. And I'll go into each one in detail. So the first one, this is probably the high, the highest potential. This is an interesting group. It uh tends to be college educated, uh, which is not what we always see in law enforcement recruitment. And it's basically people who are looking to get out of a desk job. They're not happy with their career, they're not happy with sitting behind a desk. That was like one of the key insights. It's like they want something more meaningful and something more sort of action-oriented and like being out in the field doing something that, again, is not behind a computer screen and sitting at a desk all day, you know, nine to five, five days a week. They had more positive uh perceptions of law enforcement. And again, this is an audience that was drawn to some of those messages and images that we uh showcased earlier. And in terms of a marketing strategy to reach this audience, short videos, targeted social media, showing the unique and rewarding day-to-day experiences, showing the action, because again, that's what they're looking for. They're looking to get it out of uh that office and that like nine to five uh sort of like unfulfilling uh experience they currently have. Segment two, we're calling the non-traditional potentials. So this is a typically not college educated. So you can think about these folks as maybe people who did a year or two of community college, you know, didn't finish, you know, maybe they did some trade tech. They're kind of been bouncing around, you know, haven't really found their way, maybe kind of a late bloomer, if you want to call them that, uh in a sense. Um, and they've been mostly on the fence about law enforcement careers, but are really drawn to some of the tangible benefits of the career in terms of like the ability to move up, to have a stable salary, all the great benefits, some of the ways to reach them, uh in-person outreach through recruiters, meeting them where they are, answering questions. This is definitely an audience that needs a little bit more hand holding and a little bit more high touch to kind of get them in. But they're a pretty big audience and uh high potential. Um, and then the third last one is the security-seeking suburbanites. This is our heavily female audience. So we know a lot of departments are looking to increasingly recruit women into their forces. And this is the core audience of women uh who are open to law enforcement careers. Again, they're very educated, um, tend to live in suburban uh environments as opposed to more urban environments, so something you have to kind of keep in mind when reaching them. They are similar to the first audience, they're not satisfied with their current job. They have concerns about law enforcement, uh, they think it's dangerous. That's the big driver of that concern, but they are open and interested. And if you can address some of the concerns, you can you can potentially move them down the recruitment journey. And the best marketing strategies to reach them are things like podcasts and then messages that talk about some of the benefits, the requirements, and the reality of the day-to-day experience, sort of mitigating those concerns that they may have about you know what the true danger is of uh a career. So, kind of to wrap it all up, you know, the research that we did, you know, there were a lot of great uh recommendations, but you know, the messaging needs to kind of balance tangible and intangible benefits. The the visuals should uh what we call be they should be impactful but positive, right? And that's what's gonna work best. We know we see from the research that social media is at the center of any media strategy to reach this audience. Obviously, all the all things digital is the key way, but also um increasingly a lot of streaming video platforms are really um effective to reach this audience. And again, there are huge opportunities to increase the the pool of potential applicants. From the research, I would say that's probably the biggest um sort of aha for us is that there really is a very large addressable market of potential recruits and that most law enforcement agencies are not going after. Uh and that's kind of the key uh findings from the research.

Deborah Spence 16:28

Uh some really interesting stuff in that conversation actually that jumped out at me. I think one of them was towards the beginning. I think a lot of agencies out there assume that the jobs they're trying to fill don't actually align with what job seekers are are looking for. I think there's a lot of perception out there that you know people want a nine to five, a work from home, they don't want shift work, they don't want to be on the move during the day. So I think the fact that you have research that actually shows that there are lots of people who do, in fact, want what they have to offer, I think is an important message for law enforcement agencies to hear.

Jose Villa 17:02

Yeah, absolutely. And it's actually, again, that's kind of to Dallas' point, a lot of the um attributes of the job are actually highly attractive to a lot of people that are unsatisfied uh or unfulfilled with their current job. And they're really, you know, they're great, high-quality potential applicants.

Dallas Thompson 17:20

Yeah, absolutely. And and the thing with many of them is law enforcement just has not been in their consideration set. Um and really just putting it in there and helping them to understand the value of the career uh really will generate a positive response because it is something that many have not been aware of.

Deborah Spence 17:38

You also spoke about uh one of the major hesitations for people is the perceived dangerousness of the job. Um, I was wondering to what extent recruitment images that a lot of agencies use could or couldn't play into that. I mean, I think you talked about examples of you know, the the picture of an officer arresting somebody actually resonated quite positively. That's a different type of view of the job as opposed to what I think of a lot of recruitment videos where SWAT teams riding on the back of a bear cat or blasting through a door in some way. Like, do you think that the images that police departments choose to portray in their advertising materials is maybe influencing how people perceive the job as dangerous or not?

Dallas Thompson 18:20

It it it definitely could be. Um as Jose mentioned, and one of the things, the key findings was really about the community. Because we we do know going back to the things that attract uh those who are seeking job seekers, uh community is really at the heart for this age-eligible generation and wanting to make an impact. Oftentimes we may have uh some departments want to put SWAT SWAT officers and other folks in in the ads, but the reality is for a new recruit, that's uh that's uh some ways down the road. So it is important, I think, to really emphasize those aspects of the uh of the career that are are somewhat unexpected. As you mentioned, people see the image of someone being arrested and see that as representative. But we know that there's so much more to the job and showing those things that are unexpected, we think really garner the interests of the people who would serve well in this type of role.

Jose Villa 19:14

And and another thing to kind of keep in mind is again, we have these three sort of broad segments, and for for the most part, we feel like those segments would probably apply, you know, generally across the board to most law enforcement agencies. And one of the things that you can do with digital, especially with digital media now, is you can actually run out different messages to different audiences, right? So um, you know, you may have the more tactical SWAT images for that segment one, right? And that's gonna that's gonna work really well with them, but you're not you're gonna have a very different, more, you know, more like community policing message for segment three, right? That emphasizes some of their concerns and emphasizes the parts of the job that they're really interested in. And you can get pretty precise about um, and what that's one of the things we've been able to do over the years is is is create also some sort of um almost like digital personas of like some of the things that the people who fit those three segments do when they're on online, and then we can target them without using uh restricted demographic uh criteria.

Dallas Thompson 20:13

Yeah, well that that is what Jose just touched on is very, very, very critically important as far as the way the technology has allowed us to be very surgical in what we deliver to whom.

Deborah Spence 20:23

Jose, you mentioned in passing, I think in part of your presentation, the word authentic. And uh my ears really sort of perked up at that because I think that the public really picks up on authenticity in advertising, even if they don't have expert knowledge of what the job is, right? Like they there is something visceral that people can understand that this is authentic versus something else, right?

Jose Villa 20:46

Yeah, and that's across the board in all advertising. Um, yeah, but people have a keen sense uh of what's real and what's fake, you know, what's uh what's authentic and what's not. Um, and uh it's probably heightened in in a recruitment environment because again, these are not decisions that people make lightly about what they're gonna what their career is gonna be, right? This is not like buying a you know, deciding to buy a particular brand of soda or deciding to have you know lunch at one chicken place versus another, right? These are big decisions, you're thinking about it a lot, you're looking at things very carefully. So um the level of uh scrutiny is gonna be much higher from the audience. And so, yeah, it's it's absolutely critical. And again, the important thing is just to understand what is viewed as authentic by this audience. You know, we we didn't talk about it in the research, but even like uh like AI generated images and stuff like that. People have an amazing um sort of spidey sense for that stuff and they generally react negatively to it. So it's really important. I would kind of diving in deeper to that, like making sure that the images that you're that you're using are actually of your department, uh, are not AI generated, you know, because people will sniff that out so quickly and uh be turned off by it in a major way.

Speaker 21:57

Super interesting you say that. Had a conversation the other week talking about some local agencies' recruitment websites. And one of them, we thought the site itself was really quite fantastic and had a lot of good information and a lot of things we quite liked about it. But we've had a laugh over the initial image that they had of two officers standing next to each other, you know, the typical arms crossed, but I'm smiling. Come work with us pose. And the one officer had a full sleeve tattoo down one arm. Now, I think this was smart sublimal messaging on the part of the agency to basically say we will hire you even if you have tattoos. But the person that they were showing this tattoo sleeve on was a young woman who just her whole demeanor says to me that this woman has never had a tattoo, let alone a whole arm sleeve. Like it was clearly an AI-generated picture. And we did have a laugh over this is that that's what jumped out, right? The fact that this picture didn't feel authentic, not the message that they were actually sending with it.

Jose Villa 23:04

Yeah, great example. Yeah.

Deborah Spence 23:07

So, you know, if there's an agency that really wants to think more strategically or to use your word, more surgically about their recruitment efforts, like how do they work with you? What is the things that you do for a specific agency client as opposed to your general national research?

Jose Villa 23:23

Sure. Well, one thing we do is we apply we're able to apply this research to their particular department. So one of the cool things about the size of the data, uh the size of the sample, is that we can actually do what we call cuts by region. So if we're talking to a law enforcement agency in the Midwest, we can look at respondents in the survey who are in that geographic region. And there sometimes are some differences by region that we can sort of help them tap into. But you know, overall, what we're able to do is uh essentially a really smart, results-focused approach to recruitment advertising. You know, one of the things that we see a lot in the marketplace is just this over-emphasis on like cool videos and tons of social media content. It's almost like you know, departments sort of stroking their own ego and just like wanting to show all the cool stuff and spending all of their resources on just producing a ton of flashy content. Now, good content, as we've talked about, is super important, but you need to have a strategy around it and you need to make sure that you're deploying your limited resources because every um department has very limited resources, right? And increasingly growing and growing sort of targets, right, in terms of the recruitment numbers that they need to hit. And so you they need to spend, they they need to allocate their resources in the ways that are going to be the most effective to generate the ultimate result, which is you know, qualified hires, people who get through the process, um, which we know is incredibly complicated and there's a ton of attrition throughout that multiple, multiple steps in the journey, and then ultimately you'll show up at the academy and end up being officers, right? And so, you know, we really focus on particularly on the media and targeting side, making sure that the uh agency is actually allocating the proper amount of resources to targeted paid media, that that paid media is generating high-quality responses of people that are actually going to get through the process, and that the website and the whole digital experience supports that so that people don't drop off because they get sent to some um horrible, horrible uh employment portal, you know, gov jobs or whatever, uh, not to call anybody out. But uh, there's ways that we also work to sort of optimize that process so they don't lose those leads. And then recontact strategies to put people, push people down the funnel. Because we know it's not as easy as getting somebody to a cool website with really cool videos and then clicking, you know, once they click over to that you know apply button, you lose most of those people because the the process is not optimized and you have no way of contacting them to you know to encourage them to show up for the written test or for the physical test. And and that's the kind of thing we do is really focus on that entire journey from the time they see the ad and you know, the potential market that we discussed in the research all the way to the point where they complete the process and show up.

Deborah Spence 26:14

I think one of the things that's sort of exciting about this is that you know, there's more and more emphasis placed on agencies needing to develop recruitment campaigns. They don't have a lot of money to spend on this and they don't have native expertise in-house in a lot of cases, right? Like that's not why they're here. Um, so the fact that there's organizations like yours that can not only help them with understanding the market and how to target it effectively, but to do so with enough law enforcement context to be meaningful. Lots of people know about advertising, there's lots of people who know about policing, but there aren't a lot of people that can bring those two things together in an informed and intelligent way.

Jose Villa 26:55

That's absolutely correct. Yeah, and that's and that's why we have a specialty practice because it is a unique type of advertising too. Again, to use the example I mentioned earlier, we're not we're not trying to sell a beverage. Um, these are very low um involvement categories. This is a high involvement category, right? Somebody has to, you know, uh has to think about a lot of different things before they even make that first click to apply now. And so um it's a completely different type of advertising and requires a very unique approach in messaging.

Deborah Spence 27:24

Even more than that, it's the fact that you treat it as distinct from military recruitment as well, that their advertising is different than law enforcement's, um, even though I think a lot of law enforcement has historically just looked at military and other public service advertising to help guide their efforts.

Jose Villa 27:43

And there's some overlap, without a doubt. But yeah, I mean, we actually, you know, I know a lot of the the agencies we work with actually use the military as a very fertile ground for recruitment, you know, as people are coming out. Um yeah. So there are definitely some overlap, but yes, you're 100% right.

Dallas Thompson 28:00

Yeah, overlap, absolutely. Um but the thing the unique thing is is there is no Pentagon for law enforcement. So each each department is unique. Um, so you always have to take that into account.

Deborah Spence 28:10

I think that's a great line, Dallas. There's no Pentagon for law enforcement. It's very true, and it is meaningful, right? That they're all their own unique ecosystems, and you know, there's a lot that is similar across the country, but at the end of the day, all policing is local. Absolutely.

Jose Villa 28:24

Yes, and each department has something that's unique about them, right? And that's kind of one of the things that we try to do is help identify what is that, you know, what is that unique, what's that special sauce about this particular agency? Because they all are competing with a lot of other agencies in their region, even increasingly across the country, uh, definitely, you know, across their state. So uh that's really critical is to help them identify what what it is that makes them special and and what are the who are the people that are gonna see that as special and are gonna go through the process and and end up joining.

Deborah Spence 28:58

I just want to thank both of you again so much for joining me for this conversation today. It's been really interesting. I I think it forces people to think about how they're doing their recruitment advertising differently. As you were saying, it's not just enough to have a lot of content on your social media feeds. It needs to be purposeful and meaningful.

Jose Villa 29:18

Yeah, and as a little plug, um, you know, we we've actually published a lot of this research online, and so if anybody's interested, they could definitely go to our website, censusagency.com forward slash law enforcement. Um, and you can uh actually click over call to service and download some of the some of the research. You can see some of the findings that we went over today. So we made that available to the public.

Dallas Thompson 29:38

And I do want to give uh Mr. Villa uh his flowers for the foresight of how valuable this is because it is truly important. Uh we recognize the importance, we recognize the crisis that has been building over the last 15 years in law enforcement recruiting. Um it was a very deliberate decision to kind of go down this path. Um and we've been able to help a number of departments. Um we're willing to help all those who who need it uh because again, we recognize the the deep need for this and how important it is to the future.

Deborah Spence 30:11

Here at 21 CP Solutions, we're committed to making public safety work better for agencies, for officers, and for the communities they serve. If today's conversation resonated with you, we'd love to connect. You can reach us at info at 21cpsolutions.com or by phone at 844-767-2172. New episodes of the 21cp pod drop regularly. You can find them on our website or subscribe through Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And follow us on LinkedIn to stay in the loop on everything we're working on. One final note our theme music was composed by Rachel McCullough. Thank you so much for spending time with us today, and we'll see you next time.