Sober-curious? Are you or somebody you know battling a substance use disorder? Wonder where the intersection of public health and behavioral health meet? This might be the episode for you. During this episode, we talk about the realities of walking the road to recovery with three public health-minded individuals who know this topic intimately.
Guests:
Resource Dealers:
Sober-curious? Are you or somebody you know battling a substance use disorder? Wonder where the intersection of public health and behavioral health meet? This might be the episode for you. During this episode, we talk about the realities of walking the road to recovery with three public health-minded individuals who know this topic intimately.
Guests:
Resource Dealers:
the addiction policy forum conducted a survey kind of a small survey. 1079 people early in April May, which is actually the beginning of the covert epidemic and 20% of the respondents reported that their own or family members substance use. had increased during the pandemic a nationwide sample of 500,000 urine drug tests conducted by the millennium health showed a steep increase in the following of the following substances. In mid march so just keep in mind, this is all at the beginning of the epidemic, but cocaine went up cocaine use went up 10% heroin 13% methamphetamine 20% and non prescribed fentanyl. upwards of 32% stress and coping mechanisms during a pandemic or hard enough, let alone living in Nevada which is among the top 10 states for drug abuse. That might have changed, too, because those statistics seem to go up and down and then. supplement that with college lifestyle or binge drinking is widely accepted and one in five students has used an illicit substance in the past. month, so we wanted to kind of have this little Roundtable discussion to talk about the realities. Of that road to recovery so welcome my guests, we have brandon Collins, who is currently a college students, a world traveler and owner of be Collins tattoo. and very well known in Reno proper and then we have Daniel fraud, who is the senior coordinator and instructor. In the school Community health sciences and part in about a cares and part of the Center for application of substance abuse technologies are, as we fondly call them cassette. And then Lisa Lee who also has her reputation here in Reno proper and maybe across the state as being a huge champion and activists. For substance use and resources, she is the project manager at track be exchange in Los I said in Las Vegas because it started there but you're actually doing it up here in northern Nevada. research assistant for Dr Carla Wagner and school of Community health sciences, a chair of the Nevada Interagency Council on homelessness and housing and a mother. And a doctorate student at Walden University, which is quite the title so welcome everybody so let's talk about. Your own personal journey and road to recovery, and you can start you know with the path to addiction, all the way to recovery it's However, you want to you kind of want to approach the topic so who wants to kind of go first. Like i'm talking to my class. Right.
Daniel Fred:I can, I can jump in a little bit just to be brief, I think it's. it's interesting too because i've heard. Lisa talk to my class last Semester and it's interesting how we hear a lot we've all heard people's kind of experiences and, although, like the details are all different, like the feelings and the emotions and the pain and and all of that's kind of similar. But just kind of overview of mine mine was. You know, really in related to some trauma that I experienced in as a freshman at college and kind of before that and had a roommate who had. died by suicide and I didn't know how to deal with the trauma that, as well as with. kind of the emotional loss and the grief, or even really how to get to the grief and so drugs and alcohol really became my way of processing and coping with you know everything going that I was going through with at that age and so. My kind of path and. I know level and getting into addiction was was pretty quick just because it when you started I think it's something like that it's hard to come up for air, because when you come up in and are sober everything that you've been kind of suppressing is there. And so, mine just quick overview, and so I just to make the long story shorter ran into some legal issues here and there and I ended up getting sober down in Texas. and got into a collegiate recovery program so got back into college, which was specifically designed for students, like me, who you know I felt out and had a low GPA. But we're trying to get sober because they understood like grades with someone in addiction didn't necessarily equal how good of a student that person was and so. Immediately like recovery for me was was a lot about healing but it took a lot longer to heal before I realized like I realized recovery was what I needed to be doing immediately because I. Even though it's not necessarily textbook like we want people to go into treatment, and we want them to spend some time and wanted to work on themselves. And then right there memoir and then get into school right like we have this process but getting into school. And being successful in school immediately for me and being around people and having relationships like solidified like recovery was was so much better than anything I was living, and so it allowed me to. kind of go on the journey of healing a lot of the underlying stuff of my addiction, and so I do think, I think. For me, and I think it's different for each people each person, when we talk about addiction, I think, addiction really is like. Our best attempts at dealing with the things that we don't know how to deal with and and really what recovery is is is actually healing from those things you know, and so that was kind of my I know my quick experience into all of that.
Melanie Flores:quick question So how do you know. That you're stepping from normal college kid drinking and drugging whatever to you know admitting that you have an addiction or substance abuse problem.
Daniel Fred:I think I think that's what was hard is because you hang around people who are, like you, and so I just hung around the party kids and then hung around the kids that did the same drugs that I was doing you know, and so, when I got sober I was already. had already kind of left university with a really poor GPA and it just was getting sober was was really about just not wanting to be miserable anymore and less about if I fit in. But I when I share my story I share this part because I think it's important when I called two of my best friends at party as hard as I did in college. Until them I getting sober both of them said, like yeah I knew, you had a problem. Right like they were both like yeah We were worried about you, but no one ever said anything like no one ever said, like hey i'm concerned about you. And at the same time, I was kind of offended because i'm like we were at the same place like doing the same things, and so I don't know. really what what the difference was per se, but I think it makes it difficult, because this picture we have a college student. And really someone who's developing problems with substance use disorders can get really blurry and the line between what's kind of normal and someone's going to grow out of it and and what is, you know really someone developing a pretty severe substance use disorder.
Melanie Flores:Thank you for sharing. anybody else want to talk about their journey Lisa.
Lisa Lee (she/her):i'll go um so thanks for sharing Daniel I That was a very short synopsis and I think the two of us are both celebrating our 19th year and recovery this year and I have to say. Time is Daniel yes, I just celebrated um. But I think for me. kind of like what Daniel was saying, like trauma was my. gateway drug. You know um trauma was definitely the gateway drug and. For you know for people that go through some childhood. trauma and I think it's like substances are just kind of a natural way to go to relieve pain. So I think, like all beings kind of retreat from pain and seek pleasure it's kind of a natural thing, and when you don't have a bag, full of coping skills that really is a coping skill that's easily accessible, and so I really want to normalize the fact that we do that is humans. And I also think it's important to elevate in conversation the idea, the difference between like. Experimental and recreational and social use and when it becomes a chaotic or problematic relationship with substances. Because like you know in my history, I was experimenting at 11 you know smoking cigarettes at eight, and you know started experimenting with getting high 11 and. I was able to maintain I mean I was a good student, I was in the gifted and talented program as a as a kid school was really. And this means something which is why i'm bringing it up school was really like a sanctuary where I was seen heard and valued right, something I was really good at for other people, it might be sports or. You know, specific like hobby oriented skill set for me it was school academics, is where I kind of found my grounding and my my sanctuary. And then I you know, a bunch of stuff happened as a kid and I ended up you know, on the streets experiments they're not experimented experienced episodic homelessness for eight years. And you know, during that whole time, and this was, like all over the country you know it's almost like all over and on the streets and squatting and. And you know, like attracts like like Daniel was saying, you know you kind of wherever you go there, I was you know I meet hook up with. All the folks who loved heroin, you know, and there I was again i'm and so. Like to escape that really, really took a lot like you know I tried methadone a bunch of times i'm abstinence based treatment which they won't wouldn't take you back in those days, unless you were off methadone so, then you know. Oh you're making the choice like Oh well, they told me it's okay to go back to heroin cuz I gotta get off methadone right it's just like. This really twisted system of care that was so fragmented and this is before a CA so if you're indigent you you're homeless, you have no insurance, there was no medicaid to fall back on there wasn't. Treatment parody so you go to the State operated treatment Center for homeless and intelligent indigent folks right. Anyway, so you try what you can and you get in where you you, you can fit in I guess. And for me what it took was one housing ended by homelessness so I really think that that's important part of the conversation I don't believe people can sustain recovery when they do not have a safe and stable House really like social determinants matter. in real life that is a must, so housing helped I got a job in Alaska through series of just very strange events which is kind of like. My normal and met the sky got this interview, and next thing i'm in Alaska working my methadone get stolen for my room so guess what gotta gotta face it till you make it. And quit cold Turkey and it just took getting really honest with my boss, you know, like hey i'm detoxing off methadone. And he's like oh you got to go back to the lower 48 and I was like no like you need to be hard on me, I need to be here i'm gonna die i'm going to be in the spoon by noon and i'm going to die if I go back. Like I don't think I have any more overdoses in me and to survive, you know, and so I didn't know what I was doing. But I think for recovery to me meant a return to what provides you sanctuary, which is where like education comes in. You know, and I think that is where I ran to to find sanctuary is poetry reads and libraries and book clubs and do university because that's where I could ground myself. You know, and then a bunch of other stuff came to support recovery as well, but for me recovery is all about building a life that you don't feel the need to escape from. And that doesn't mean it's all unicorns and rainbows and happy joy all the time, but it means being able to feel the depths of your emotions. Right all the this whole spectrum of emotions and all the stuff that life throws at you parents dying people dying around you caring for you know caring for others. And experiencing the risk of loss that comes with that to the fullest of your capacity um and this wide range of emotions, but you have more tools in your tool kit. Right you put you put more tools in your tool kit in your recovery, so your first tool isn't your one and only tool isn't to use. You have all of these other tools in your tool kit and that really for me is what recovery is about is just building a solid set of tools and then helping others to find their own set of tools.
Melanie Flores:Thank you Lisa. All right, brandon. So some history brandon and I used to hang out kind of through similar people back in the day and I would say partying was a little bit of the lifestyle back then not even considering that somebody might have struggles. Until it hit well, at least for me, a friend of mine close partner of mine actually had an overdose. And that was my cruel reality in terms of like slap in the face like addiction is a thing, but brandon you know I saw you, we are friends through like social media and you're like traveling the world and you're getting all buff to cross fed and. And he's really like living the life and so I was really shocked when you openly said that you were struggling with addiction so tell me what your what your path was.
Brandon Collins:Okay, thank you also thank you, Daniel and. Lisa those are. Those are some some critical tasks to follow, but i'll do my best. Quality showed me one of the things of addiction is we're really good at hiding it because we don't we don't want to admit you know that we have a problem and. One of the things with me I won't get into the whole thing, for we don't have enough time but they're clicking sticky of it is. I didn't really have any. Specific trauma or any like really terrible rock bottom kind of stories or anything like that, and I think that that's actually part of was part of my problem, because you know I didn't think I had a problem because I wasn't homeless and I wasn't. Using intravenous drugs and and so like I would consider myself to other people who who am I gained a guess not below me, but like. In a worse place for me, so I wasn't I wasn't paying attention to my own addiction and that's I think part of what got me into so much trouble. And so. You know, being being an athlete in school, then there's lots of partying in Jersey, I started drinking probably 1313 or 14. And then, right after high school I joined the Marine corps and so that's more drinking culture my graduate degrees I got out of the Marine corps after four years started bartending yet again more of a drinking culture and I go to college even more drinking culture, and so it was just. compounded on compounding and compounding and compounding and and I didn't really you know I didn't think I had a problem I thought I was fine I just thought it was part of the thing. And I still to this day, only kind of have an idea of why I was the way I was and I, and I think that it's going to take me some time of real self reflection and and forgiveness and understanding and grace to really wrap my head around that. But there was a point when I woke up in jail or I don't even know how many times for my third dui and that's kind of when I was like Oh, maybe, maybe I do have a problem. Maybe those people who've been telling me that I drink too much for actually right. Or at least they they had some idea. And then the funny thing about addiction and I know that Daniel and Lisa can both. kind of understand this is. I got out of I got out of jail for my So do I, and I went directly to in a meeting, not because I knew I needed help, but because I knew that it would look good with the courts and I knew that because I was my third year I was facing a year in prison. And so I did the right thing, but not because of the right reasons right and so. It wasn't until I got a phone call from my lawyer about three days before. For my court hearing he says to me hey I got good news and bad news, and I was like okay well what's the good news, she says well your your court cases and dropped. And I was like that's amazing what's the bad news, and you said, the COP arrested, he was killed in a car accident last night and so she can't. testify against you so you're off scot free and even to this day, like telling that gives me like. Such crazy anxiety because I was. Part of me was happy and pardon me were devastated part of me was stoked and I didn't have to go to jail, but the part of me was was upset that I was getting away with it again and so that was the moment I guess. I guess my rock bottom and she had to put a label on it, where I was like this, this woman died and I need to do something with it, so that she didn't die in vain, and that was the day I quit drinking and that was in 2008 2006 or 2007 or something like that. And I you know I quit I quit drinking I quit smoking cigarettes I quit having sex I quit doing drugs I quit doing everything like literally turned myself into a monk, because that was the only way that I figured I was going to be able to get out of this. And even though that was the day I started my recovery i've only been totally sober for probably like three years now, because we all know, you know there's relapse again whatnot so um. yeah it's it's weird to be around and to listen to people's stories have these like. Life changing stories and then I feel like i'm just some idiot who drinks too much so, like so it becomes, it becomes difficult for me and and i'll have a little bit of like guilt and a little bit of imposter syndrome, but that's just something that. That, I have to. figure out and learn to live with.
Melanie Flores:I think that. I feel like it's a very interesting each of you have a very different story on your path to recovery and. So I wanted to ask like what does classify as addiction, maybe, personally, and then you know I think especially you, Daniel you probably know, the textbook version as well, but like when you think about addiction, what do you, what do you think that is. Because it seems like you all came to it. in different ways.
Daniel Fred:Well, I think that's what makes. addiction so complicated, too, is there's the there's the diagnosis and to speak with with kind of what brandon was saying to is. I mean, especially like we we love to sensationalize everything right, so we show the extreme. You know of everything so so the people with with you know the the extreme stories are the ones that. You know, we put in front of screens, because we want to show the before and after, and so I think one of the problems we have sometimes with. With the recovery process and and this recovery advocacy we do is we do share like a lot of the extremes and so people who like brandon who the feelings are the exact same the hopelessness, the shame, like those are just as happy for somebody. Using using you know different types of drugs and different types of stories not hitting the same bottom, I think, is is. I think it's pretty common to feel that way right, and so I mean we have that like diagnostic version but, most people who are in. Self identified recovering never get a formal diagnosis right, so a lot of people don't go through treatment, a lot of people don't go to a therapist sometimes they go to meetings or. are like what Lisa was saying, or brandon was saying we find other means to you know turn her life around and to focus on healing and so. And you know there's a training that is pretty popular now nationally. But see car started it and out of Connecticut and and it was a recovery coach training, it was the first time I heard is that. We have to allow people to say that they're in recovery when they say they are right until like. Not only do we have to let people define their recovery, we have to let people define what addiction was for them and and so it's. it's this unique process because yeah we have like the science side of it we get the treatment side of it, but very few you know people like a small percentage of people actually go through that kind of treatment slash science side of of addiction science and recovery and so. I think that's what's so fascinating about it because it is really kind of this this it's about your own personal. story and your own personal issues, and I think that's what's so powerful too, because we can all. Whether you've been an addiction or not like we can all identify with with what people have been through it and those overwhelming emotions and stuff.
Melanie Flores:You mentioned all of you mentioned guilt and shame and all of these associated feelings that come along, especially at the beginning of. recognizing that you need to recover, maybe, and then Lisa you talked about coping mechanisms so where did what coping mechanisms, did you find to put in your toolbox, and how did you find them. Maybe we start with you Lisa.
Lisa Lee (she/her):that's a great question um. gosh there's so many ways, I mean part of recovery like Daniel said, you know it's it's defined by the person. But also, there are multiple paths to recovery so honestly like at the beginning of my recovery, I went to meetings actually I was on an island, so I ran a lot around the islands and went hiking. um so the outdoors was my first I guess sanctuary because there weren't any meetings on the island, I was stuck in out the aleutian islands. And don't swim out there, by the way, like don't don't swim that Bering sea so cool I thought that was a good idea, because I was looking for stimulation or something and but. So meetings for me. meetings were really where it like I didn't know anybody who didn't use I really didn't know anybody who didn't use and so that was freaky I thought that. People who didn't use drugs were like boring robots I guess it really had some like stigma there. around like people that didn't use like what are they like what did they do that was my burning question is like What do you do with your time. And I think also coming out of years of homelessness you come from a really thriving Community where people. I guess it's kind of like bar communities, you know what I mean where like you know, everybody, and you have this really thriving community that may look dysfunctional from the outside, but to you, you know what what did they say what is chaos, to the. To the spider or what is chaos, to the fly is like normal for the spider whatever. it's kind of like that, so I mean that was very normalized and then you you're in a box by yourself with the walls, you know, and you have to like. think you have to do some self introspection and have self awareness so that can be really scary, especially when you're living with co occurring disorders and. And you know complex post traumatic stress disorder and all that and I think they experiencing homelessness, especially as a female you pick up a lot of trauma on the way. That can be very harmful so you're trying to unwind all that you're in a box. And you have to meet new people, you have to do everything differently, really, I mean I remember like laughing at counselors when they'd say oh it's easy you just have to change everything like what. Like what but it's true because you do have to change the people you hang out with the places you hang out with the way you think the way you. The way you embody yourself right, you have to change all of that your thoughts your behaviors. And really I was just hungry, I was hungry to figure out what to do with my time I really wanted that question answered. So we went to a lot of meetings I had really bad experiences and I had really great experiences and I found meetings that worked for me, I, for you know my early recovery, I really needed old old timers. Who were you know little rough around the edges, but they talked about what they did in life, like they talked about. Taking the boat out on the lake and going fishing with their grandkids and that gave me hope, like I needed to hear that you could go do these very simple things and enjoy them. Because that was so out of what I could even imagine right um but it it created possibilities for me and what life could be like and I started imagining you know possibilities for my life too and. Then I started going to poetry reads and open mics and started doing readings and that was like for somebody with you know social anxiety disorder that had been medicated and. You know, had this long history of that that was huge That was a huge part of healing you know, to get totally out of my comfort zone and be vulnerable. with strangers, you know, like really vulnerable your poetry out there, amongst strangers, and I did it with my back to the audience a lot until I got these brands on my back. And anyway in that was perfect performance art, but really like just playing with who I was what was my identity, how you know who am I becoming. really asking all those questions and then therapy helped for me helped give me skills cognitive behavioral therapy, I found smart recovery which is all cvt based which gave me actual. You know pragmatically pliable skills. Because that's what I really needed, I was my problem I needed to get out of my own way and figure out, you know real things that I could apply in my life. Right, and so I moved into that smart recovery and picked up tools there and then. there's just been so many awesome people, and I mean there's folks right here that have influenced my recovery and help to give me tools. And I just feel like you find them along the way you find new social supports again a safe, safe and stable home i'm learning how to you know. Balance your finances right, I mean like I look at my credit score today and i'm like whoa. like this is crazy saw 793 you know, like how did I get here, well, I learned some skills from some people smarter than me along the way right and now here I am so I feel like just being vulnerable and open. To people showing you and realizing like there's a lot of smart people out in the world, and then you just got to listen and like. You know fail some sometimes that's all right, you know they say it's failed his first attempt it were first attempt in learning, but you know for me it's like 400th attempt in learning and that's totally Okay, because you do what it takes and you learn along the way. And then you have other skills, but I also want to say in relation to the pandemic that tool of escaping is still in that toolbox for everybody, I don't care if you've had a problematic relationship with substances or you haven't that is still one of the tools in there it's just. Maybe you don't choose to pick that up pick up that tool and you pick up something else, but I do want to say it for the sake of shame and stigma. To folks out there who might be struggling with loneliness right there. They there's a barrier with their social support systems there's a barrier with connecting to purpose and meaning in your life through employment or. career, whatever that may be like people's lives are really impacted, and that is still a tool and I just don't want feel people to feel bad. If that's the tool they're picking up you know, like there's plenty of people that I help support you find other tools in that tool box you just have to be open to it okay i'll shut up i'm sorry.
Melanie Flores:Lisa. brandon.
Brandon Collins:Thank you, we saw. And Daniel. From so. Like I think like Daniel and we ignore you even said that, like the path to recovery is was different for everyone and I don't think that that can be stated loud enough, I mean it's. Your path to through from around all that is a similar to other people as fingerprints. You know, as to how the brain chemistry once it's in the minutia or even so different so. One thing that works for me not only may not work for someone else, but it also may not work for future me. So, when what I mean by that is recovery is really organic and I think we even brought that up what worked for me in the beginning. doesn't necessarily work for me now and what works for me now would have never worked for me in the beginning, so in terms of that it's really hard to like narrow down what works and what doesn't work it's kind of like what's working right now is what you really need to focus on. You know, and for me in the very, very, very, very, very beginning, the meetings were important because they kept me accountable now I don't I don't attend meetings I haven't I can't remember the last week, I went to I just. turned on for my thing anymore, however, I coach fitness for those that have substance use disorders that's my meeting now that's what holding me accountable. Being being at and working with students and interrupt that's another thing that holds me accountable so i've i've moved from. needing needing help for myself to providing for others, which in turn gives me a little bit of hope that makes sense I don't I don't know if that came over where I wanted it to. And again in the beginning, this also still works for me now is is anything outdoors if i'm outside I feel small I feel relevant. it's all my problems don't seem to matter because i'm just out in an invite and by the outdoors I don't mean going on a two hour hike. planetary i'm talking about 348 touches trip outside of stuff where like you could misstep literally dive and that's. that's the kind of thing that really makes me feel alive and I don't feel the need to be drunk or be high or anything like that, because that's where I get that like kind of internal and push that you get from. And yeah and physical fitness as well, has been a really big thing but there's some like Lisa was saying there's so many different things that hopping. On and that you're using your tool belt you're you're constantly pulling tools out and replacing them with different tools from if I could use that analogy on that that's that's actually a question I could probably take the entire hour answering so i'll leave it at that.
Melanie Flores:Thank you for ended. Daniel you mentioned that. A collegiate recovery Program. really helped you and now you're kind of part of Len in a way, and was that really the impetus for your recovery journey or developing coping mechanisms.
Daniel Fred:yeah. I think, for me, because so much of my like. us, especially at a young age, was just about fitting in like I didn't I never learned social skills like. I was was homeschooled, which is a great thing for a lot of people but i'm a super social person and so not being able to like. walk into being social and then going into high school where everybody already had their groups and I wasn't a job, can I wasn't an academic and so like. You know the stoners like really accepted me, and so we know like that's the most accepting group or the kids who use right. And so, and so I never developed, like any social skills so so first getting like sober and going into this program I remember going to my first meeting was on campus with the Director and walking over my first a meeting. And in my head thinking like man I can't believe they let like all these homeless people and on campus and thinking it's just going to be like this stinky meeting like we have this stigma. with people who use right so i'm like i'll go to this, so I get into school and I walked in and the thing that blew my mind was like it was all like normal like cool looking college kids right. And, and it like it, what blew me away was like how I just never expected that because I thought addiction was there, but it's also like how I viewed myself right. And so just my first experience finding acceptance and just simple things like when you have a using dream and, like the guilt and shame you feel or when you have this experience and being able to talk to people and being able to play hacky sack you know between classes. And so, that was a huge part of finding like my people, you know that got me. and accepted me as I was and and I think that was a huge part of it, even more so than than the meetings and all of that which was great I think it was finding my people. And so, when I started Grad school here at the University of Nevada not having That was really obvious even being in you know addiction treatment services classes. And so we're talking about it but they're still not people who are like. In recovery around me and and so like starting a collegiate recovery program at you, and our, which was also were like my addiction to cold, you know years years earlier was really, really important to me, and so it took a while and with Dr shad Lee and. You know, really kind of got that going and Jordan and everybody else is doing a great job with it now i'm not really involved with it as much anymore. But I think it's so important for people who are coming back to school and for students to see what recovery is like I think we focus so much on addiction. You know, and I think this is what makes it makes it really a public health issue more than just like a clinical psychological issue I think recovery is a public health issue, I think. Like what brandon and Lisa were both saying is is we stumbled upon our paths, but we all know, countless number of people who. aren't who probably want to be, and could and should be in recovering people that we've buried that didn't get to stumble onto it, and so I think it's. You know the public health piece comes in for me, of providing those different kind of entry points and those different places, whether it's in college or or wherever you're at. To where you can kind of find your people, but also find you know your purpose and find a way to build that life like Lisa was saying that you don't want to. You don't want to run away from or you don't want to escape from and even when life gets to the place like this pandemics been. it's been tough for a lot of people like a lot of stuff like that i've dealt with has come back up a lot of like mental health stuff that I thought I was doing really well with it's come up but still having. Those people, even if it's not reaching out if it's just hearing people talk about what they're going through, I mean you know you you. tend to find people when you find people who are like you and save money when I talked about when I was using I found people using the same drugs to the same extent that I was using so I felt normal. And now, when you're vulnerable out your story and your you find people who are like you so like Lisa may post something on social media that like I really needed that day. As you may have no idea how much that impacted me but it's just about you know kind of build that network, whatever that looks like and so. I don't know if that answers totally answers your question, I went off on my own tangent a little bit there too. But I just think finding you know we don't talk enough about that you know finding your people and finding a way to enjoy life really early We talked so much about the addiction and getting out of the addiction, but recovery. can be enjoyable like right away, you know what I mean and and I think that's like that's such an important piece.
Melanie Flores:Thank you, before we move on to. Resources because I definitely want to tap in especially brandon since you're more a part of in rap and even the Daniel is now. I wanted to talk about support systems family, friends and how, how do you face the challenges of. You know substance substance use as a choice and substance use and has nothing to do with you just your week, if you have substance abuse issues like i've heard that, over and over and you kind of. You know, and even in my class, you know I talked about stages of change, and you know how it can it's you know complete neuro chemistry and all of this stuff you know, like. How, how do you deal with that do you do you think you need to educate people, or do you just move on and be like okay well that's how you feel. well.
Brandon Collins:that's a really great question um. I think it depends on the person, but I would say 99.9% of the turn now that i'm more educated on it and i'm kind of in the trenches of it, I do feel a responsibility to educate people, because the people, the people that that think that way also vote those people also. have family members that they may not be necessarily treating the way that they should, I guess, if I could put out in the most light turn. In honestly it really breaks my heart to to hear someone say that. I don't hear it all that much anymore, which, which I think is could could, could I guess. what's the word i'm looking for. there's there's more science and there's been more studies in addiction and recovery and, as you can move around and open it and I would even. think a lot of celebrities that have come out because that that really helps a lot, because people look up to those celebrities regardless of what they are, who they are. If it makes them seem human and if your favorite rapper or your favorite singer or your favorite. football player, or whatever. has a problem with substances, then they humanize them and then you think to yourself, well, I may have that problem, then my friend or my cousin or uncle or even myself could actually have that problem as well, and I think that reduces a little bit of a stigma. I tried to ask people why they think that way, instead of instead of saying no you're wrong, this is what the science says this this is this, this is rubbish. I didn't really go over very well as we've all seen in the last couple of years, both socially and politically, the best way that I approach, it is, I asked them, because I do, I actually am. Can curious as to why they think that way and so i'll ask them and then I tried to have a conversation with them about it and it almost always ends up. turning out much better than I was expecting you know because. If you come out somebody with compassion, they don't feel attacked they don't feel like they're in a city if they don't feel like they're wrong about something even though you know they may seem to your in your eyes that they're wrong but that's just how. They and they've come to understand that, because they don't know how it works and that's okay it's Okay, if you don't know how it works. But. yeah so I know it's not my responsibility to educate the world, but I do feel like. The more people that I can help understand how it works, the better, I think, at least, the Community will will be. That answer your question.
Melanie Flores:I think. Anybody want to chime in.
Daniel Fred:I love how we're both like seeing who's gonna go first because we both we know. Go ahead Lisa you go.
Lisa Lee (she/her):where's just going to say, especially. With more public health. data that is becoming more and more relevant and you know kind of mainstreamed and things like the ISAs study right where we can quantify um. You know, almost immaculately like somebody's chances of developing a substance use disorder or suicide duality or COPD or hypertension right seeing like the health connection and it and I think substance use absolutely is a health connection right people are dying. into brandon's point like he is not alone there are 14 billion people with an alcohol use disorder in this country and 95,000 people have died. Just in a year right usually it's around 80,000 so that far supersedes on deaths on account of an overdose but we don't want to talk about that right we don't want to talk about that we just want to talk about things we can demonize. Due to you know kind of our our policy history in this country and. and various you know prohibitive efforts, etc, etc, and so I feel like you know, having things like the aces study to kind of reframe the way we look at health and wellness is really, really important. And I just wanted to mention that, like, I think we can draw back on these these. These tools, you know, to help educate folks and like brandon was saying you certainly don't want to come at somebody you know, like you're wrong that's they have an opinion that's totally valid and real for them and, and I think our job is just to engage in conversation. that's all I get.
Daniel Fred:yeah I think to if I can add real quick to Melanie I teach so I teach the intro class toward a countryman minor at our campus right, and so I usually have. anywhere between 150 to 200 students and I always ask that question how many of you have a close. family member not like your great great uncle that you never met like a close family member or like a really close friend. who's either like experienced addiction or struggle with addiction and it's always like 79% which blows people away that it's everybody else's experience it and so. it's something we all experience, but where where it hits students hard as they can understand. Like the brain, you know they understand that it's a It really is a motivational kind of disorder with the open mean that affects our behaviors what we're, seeing as the behavior. Where people get stopped, as is like at a student just the other day tell me like I, I can see it, and it makes sense. But it's hard for me to like be okay that my mom used meant so much in the way she treated me like to see her that way. And so, and so I think the biggest barrier is is is sometimes like if we've experienced people the hurt that comes from the behavioral side right, and also to realize like. You know those people are really all in a lot of pain and so it's not that they're intentionally like kind of treating you that way and, and I think it opens the door for a lot of healing for people to realize. Oh it's not that they just hated me or they didn't like me, you know it's we don't have to get into all of it but it's the motivation it's it's the brain, you know telling telling the person that, like the drug is the same as air like you need it for survival. But then also you know it overrides everything, so the way they treated you was not just like their choice, and so I think it's. it's a hard conversation because I mean since the 30s we've we've really said, you know drugs are bad and people use drugs are bad people get. addicted or bad and, and so I think changing the conversation to you know beneficial and really looking at kind of what people are going through is is the only way, but I think for families. You know there's still a way to walk into that compassion peace and still set boundaries. And still be healthy, while people are people are using, of course, like you, don't just let people walk all over you right because. You know they're in pain, you still have to set boundaries, but I think it's such an important piece because. I mean it'd be hard to find someone who is not like who's not affected by someone with a substance use disorder, you know I mean, I think we all have some type of level and so. Understanding it's not only helps us to like deal with people, but also to find our own healing which is really important.
Melanie Flores:Oh, my God Daniel you brought up that that pain, on the other side. that's so true like there's pain on both.
Daniel Fred:sides.
Melanie Flores:You know, and I think both are in the thick of it right, and you don't really like you can't even see beyond your own nose sometimes um you know, like like Lisa said earlier, like the syringe service Program. policy work that i've done, you know was my therapy to understand addiction and you know I went from like completely not understanding addiction and. You know hating my accident died because I felt like it was his fault and then to actually like going to the legislature and lobbying with somebody who was a former injection drug user and. You know and and had a relapse at that same time and visited them in jail and, like all this stuff and it was like you know that's part of the process and just being a supportive, as I could, at the time. What would you recommend you know have loved ones that are like you know I understand getting to that point of like being so frustrated, you know with the relapse process, you know with. You know, sometimes they're stealing involved. i'll never see my snowboard ever again. And you know things of that nature, where. You know you've mentioned boundaries, how do you do that. You know.
Daniel Fred:yeah I mean, I think, especially as people who are close. Like loved ones and partners and family like we need therapy in meetings, just like the person is using does you know and and so you know I think it's. We can't overemphasize you know finding a therapist to help you process, you know your own healing. But you know we all talked about kind of going to meetings in the beginning and finding our people and it's the same way, whether it's you know there's all kinds of meetings for for loved ones who. have gone through that, and so I think it's really important to to find your people, so that piece of like you're not alone you're not the only one that's gone through it, this is normal it's okay. And you're going to be okay, I think, is really powerful and then also finding you know those getting those skills, the same skills. Lisa talked about needing I mean we need to develop those if we walk through it with family members cvt and boundaries, and I mean all that stuff and so you can't. You can't just kind of decide that you need that and develop it, I mean, I think we have to like you know there's some real work that goes on, and so there needs to be services and stuff like that for for folks a family members as well.
Melanie Flores:And then there's Alan on that's the only one, I really know about i'm sure there's other support groups and go ahead Lisa you know.
Lisa Lee (she/her):Well, I was gonna say smart friends and family. crafts dirtied Patterson is doing work with. moms who have lost a child on there's a lot for families but that's again like we individualize things we individualize everything like. Even the homelessness piece right we take one person out of Community and we do that thing with the one person, just like we take one person and put them in recovery or treatment or whatever. But it takes like we need to heal the whole the whole Community, the whole like you don't just you know don coils talks about the healing, for instance, like you, can't just heal one tree. You got to heal the whole forest right, and I think we need to. That I mean that's a policy conversation for another day, but our whole system needs an overhaul to include people support systems, whether that's friends family. You know, family by choice, whatever we need to include other folks that are suffering as well, and we don't we don't we just individualize things.
Melanie Flores:I love that brandon. yeah um.
Brandon Collins:Can you just kind of wanted to go off from both what they both said. In. There there definitely needs to be more resources for those who aren't the ones with the substance use disorder, even though they're just all respected, and I would even argue, maybe, sometimes even more effective. But if I could give anyone some advice, and this was just speaking from my experience, because after I got sober I I sent a handful of emails and text messages to exes apologizing for my behavior. And every single one of them all to get the role but. it's not about it's not about you it's not your it's not your job to fix anyone. And if I can give you some advice, it would be just give them space, you have to set boundaries, you have to protect yourself, but you have to give them the space because you're not going to be able to fix them because. Once my responsibility to it's not even possible you can't do it, and so, by trying to take on that responsibility yourself you're making it so much harder than it would have been already is. him, so I guess what i'm trying to say is you know when you're deep in your addiction you're you're doing your thing and it's not about the person that you're hurting. You you kind of know you're hurting them, but then you kind of don't know, at the same time it's really hard to explain. I can see, Daniel not in the sentencing other ones on both like there's this like thing, where you know you're doing it you can't have the compulsion you can't help yourself, you know you're doing it sooner than the guilt makes you want to use more i'm another so. I guess as hard as it seems trying to take it personally because it's not about you it's really not from I guess that's what I was trying to say. Thank you.
Melanie Flores:And so that kind of does bring me to resources. And in my personal experiences, there are so many barriers to getting treatment. Can somebody tell tell us like what kind of barriers are out there, because you know. I see families and they'll be like I just need to get this person in a substance abuse treatment Program. And they just show them their whether they want to go there and not because it's, the only thing they know how to do is like well their centers for that I can't deal with it. And then you call call call call call and they said well do they want to get clean well I don't know just take them, you know and they're like booked you know for months ahead, I mean. there's so many barriers how, what is your advice in terms of maybe even barriers that i'm not even thinking of, and then, how does one get over that barrier before somebody is like change their mind you know and decide they don't want me stop using.
Lisa Lee (she/her):Oh boy. Since I do this on a daily. I have a lot to say, but I. owe your mind time if anyone else wants to jump in. there's so many barriers and like I mean i'm i'm out do an outreach with people experiencing homelessness who are using and obviously there's a high degree of risk there, which is. I mean my heart, will always be with people experiencing homelessness or you know people just on the brink like those are my people the those are the folks that I really truly enjoy connecting with because. they're that's my Community right and it is so hard you know you have to do the wallet biopsy and I really hate that but I. You know i'm like permission to do, why wallet biopsy here um so finding what insurance coverage someone has or if they have insurance and then navigating that system with them, which has been very challenging during pandemic because. kind of the usual routes that I had depended on our. Just changed rate over the last year it's been kind of a mess, and so the insurance thing the wallet biopsy also like presenting that menu of options for treatment. Right, because you know, like I tell people it's not my job to judge what you choose off the menu i'm just presenting the menu. And I can tell you about each one like each option, you know what I mean, but so when once people choose something off that treatment menu of options. or just you know Community based recovery supports are on that menu as well, like it's really difficult it's hard to get medication assisted treatment. On that system really hasn't changed since I was a methadone patient, you know 19 years ago and before you know it had been on methadone in the 90s. as well that system really hasn't changed it's very difficult to get somebody in an intake and I will pick somebody up at four o'clock in the morning and take them down there. and try and try and try, but it gets really daunting when you know they only take one person or three people and there's eight people in line consistently and they only do it two days a week and you got to go at 5am or 6am you know. All these things so there's so many barriers, we don't have treatment on demand. Especially you know we know medication assisted treatment has a higher rate of success long term, you know just support people's recovery and so i'm really stoked that that's changed over the years, because it used to be highly stigmatized and demonized. In terms, a lot of people off to the hope of finding recovery so there's so many barriers, you know to getting someone in, but I think you have to be more stubborn than these systems in place and really persistent and. have a lot of social capital to be able to know who is working at this place and who to talk to an intake here and there and everywhere. And really have a supportive network to help you with that now, not the average person has rate they don't even know where to go and so. You know there's resource tools, like the recovery resource hub that's partnered with Google and capacity that kind of has you know, a map to find reef every support services and treatment options. But it is really hard and I really recommend having somebody call a place like foundation for recovery. Because they're they're going to be in the know they're going to know who to call, who has beds, you know which place takes which insurance, I think, like calling and asking somebody to help you navigate the system is a really good request to make because it's incredibly difficult. Okay sorry you.
Melanie Flores:know that. That is so valuable and. brandon did you want to talk about REPS for recovery and in rap and with those resources are and how to tap into them.
Brandon Collins:yeah absolutely. I mean we can talk about barriers for an entire power. So I do think it's important that that we hit on the resources. So service recovery is a nonprofit that was started. A year or so ago, even know last year messed up, so I think, maybe it's a country. or it's been a month I don't even know anymore. And so what what it is, is is we provide gym membership. fitness coaching mentorship for people who are struggling with not only just substance use disorders, but eating disorders and any other like behavioral type of disorder. it's it's a it's kind of a place where you feel it's kind of like a meeting like an a meeting where you're around others who who are similar to you, and you have the same goal of not just. Stay becoming or staying sober but also changing the way that you, you view your body and your life and your health, on which I think are like really super important. For me, at least, and for those that I know I realize it's not for everyone, but it's definitely. important for me and for the people who. view their physical fitness as a trial and. We also do some outdoor stuff that we've actually been kind of doing stuff within rap going on hikes. Doing paddleboarding things going to the river, we went we did a rock climbing thing on so on Sunday know yesterday. So, and then wrap it is. it's a collegiate recovery Center here on campus it's. Basically, like a cool hangout for people who are either sober or highlight the call sober curious or in recovery or even, I would even argue for someone who. Who is a family member or a spouse of someone who's going to college because they're very they're still those challenges, you know I kind of know. you're you're trying to study for an exam but your significant other is drinking and as of watching the kids you're very good let's get into barriers as well. But there's a that we have a lounge where students can come to me now they can do their homework. There is a pool table there that we don't we're not using know obviously this is all pre covered so don't think that we're not doing any of this now, but. And we would have yoga classes and on and a q&a. I believe there's also a pma as well, which is crystal mouth or anonymous. it's just a cool place for people to hang out and be around like like minded people. Allowances open from around nine until five ish like I said right now it's it's a little more difficult, just because of all the all the things that are going on all the regulations and trying to keep everybody safe and all those things, but you know, in a normal world pretty covered. In rap is a. it's an incredible place it's it's literally, the only reason i'm doing so well in college, as I am because of ignorance and I can't say Daniel enough I can't think Jordan or Mary and all those other people who set this place up because. When I went to college, the first time. There was no such thing as in rap and you know I dropped out with a 2.9 average you know, I was too busy. getting drunk and jumping off my roof into the pool you know said it was studying and now because we've been revival four point or average i've been on the dean's list like three semesters in a row yeah me so like I. I can't. I don't even know how to express like how grateful I am for your APP so if your student and you're listening permanent wrap coming out on there i'm super cool you'll be super cool just by proxy by being around me. And yeah that's my little spiel yes.
Melanie Flores:And you also mentioned. When we talked before the podcast behavioral analysis club what is that.
Brandon Collins:OK.
Melanie Flores:So behavior analysis club.
Brandon Collins:Is a club on campus player to player she went to clubs, having a vibrant President of its for students who are either in the behavioral analysis degree program or like myself who are not i'm just really interested in vivo analysis. And behavioral analysis is. Is the study of human behavior a lot of times it's more focused on autism and more kind of behavioral behavioral issues but there's also a radical behavioral ISM and there's also. cognitive behavioral therapy which i'm I think we actually mentioned we're that's all kind of part of it it's an academic club, where we get together and we talked about Grad Grad school applications as we talked about going into the different. One of those called the conventions or or whatever they are. it's a good social network cable way to get into different laboratories on campus. yeah and it's just another thing where like minded people to be able to hang out and chat about stuff that they're interested in.
Melanie Flores:And Daniel since you work at cassette are there other resources for students, that we haven't tapped into yet.
Daniel Fred:i'm not really I mean I think of in rap is. Is kind of the. main student resource when you think of this, but I think on. And you know it's important when you talk about it any folks finding I like to call them resource dealers I just need. That name would never stick, but I just like it a lot better than some of the names, we have. But you find these you know folks I think recovery coaches, is probably a little more acceptable. But whether it's a foundation for recovery or in rap like really similar models within the Community, that you can find people who know the resources and are going to help you. And so I think chicken out, you know these these resources, especially if you if you're struggling or you know somebody struggling is a really, really important place because they have a lot of resources that you may not be aware of.
Melanie Flores:Thank you, and then um I guess we'll end with some legislation here because we talked a lot about peer recovery it support specialists and and Lisa you really wanted to talk about SP. 69 So do you want to kind of tell us what that is and what the progress.
Lisa Lee (she/her):Sure, so as Daniel can attest to. Pure certification has been, this is the fourth legislative session so eight years, everybody eight years this has been. A talking point as a legislature. With. Not so much support from the pure communities in the past, so last legislative session, you know, a bunch of us and ask that peers be removed from. The most recent iteration of your certification both mostly because it was written by. People who are not peers, and so we you know we really wanted to model, the nothing about us without us. And it appears to be part of a process so that the language was pure centric and beneficial for peers, rather than seeing us as like a liability to see us as a resource and state. And so you know, again we work with brass tacks who worked with Jimmy at the Montana peer network put together a bill, had it. revised by a couple of stakeholders, we pushed it out to peers like he please give your input on this we had town halls like all this stuff. It Sean and I Sean o'donnell and I from sean's firm foundation for recovery we pitched it to the washoe county behavioral health policy board and they graciously. picked up our peer legislation and rolled it up into some prevention legislation, which I think is really interesting arrangement, but it works. So they put peers in with prevention coalition's and passive consent for substance use education in schools and also a piece on the youth behavioral survey. A passive consent for that as well, and that is what is in sb 69 and have the first meeting within Committee was it last week i'm like brandon i'm like I don't know it was like a minute ago, maybe a month ago um. well. I think it was last week. Last Tuesday. It now goes to a working group and there, there are some men men and men, but back amendments to that language that would exclude like volunteer appears. from having to get certified a lot of agencies, you know really depend on their volunteers and we wanted to make sure that we were thoughtful around that. It also takes away like here's practicing without a certification getting a misdemeanor We certainly don't want to criminalize people so that part was also removed. From the language we don't want to put anybody in jail for not having a certification so um. The next thing it goes to a working group, where it could be subject to amendments, and then it would go to the Senate floor was presented in senate by Senator ratty. It goes to the Senate floor it gets voted on, and then it does the same process of room assembly so we'll see how that goes keep an eye on it, you can track it in Melis if you just Google Melis Nevada. You can check out SP 60 year in support of kind of you know, given peers, the opportunity to practice to the top of our. Certification and requiring education, I think it's really, really important, because I think appear without that. basic education can really harm folks in the Community, really, I really feel that way like. If you're not well versed in you know multiple paths that could potentially harm somebody by shaming them into thinking now you got to do this or you're going to die. So I personally really feel it's important I also feel very strongly that pure workers should be paid a livable wage. and have this be a career track in a I think that this is a part in that pathway in the in a broader conversation around reimbursements and and livable wage, so please support Thank you.
Melanie Flores:Thank you Lisa we really haven't even scratched the surface of this topic, and also, hopefully, you know later down the road we can address. and get a little bit deeper into some of these topics that we covered today and more, I just want to thank you Lisa Daniel brand in such an important topic, thank you for sharing your story I like to end on. Like you know a little like words of wisdom type of thing so because there's somebody out there, that your story really spoke to them today, and so what would you say to that person, that is, would you call it recovery curious or something something like that. So what would you say to that person let's start.
Brandon Collins:With you brandon. Oh man. we're gonna put me on the spot i'm. Just I think I think the best advice I can give to somebody would be the advice to give myself every single day it's just go up on yourself. which takes grace it takes forgiveness they're going to stumble you're gonna you know, none of its kind of grow the way you want it to but you got to learn to forgive yourself and we gotta learn to give yourself some space and you gotta learn to. Just be okay, but guess. What I literally have to tell myself every day go easy man i'm pretty sure I should get a tattooed on me like just go easy because I. put so much pressure on myself and can, I think we all do, and I think it's really important to just be Matthew mcconaughey who's going to demand.
Melanie Flores:That in green lights or is that from.
Brandon Collins:That.
Melanie Flores:Well, I know he has a new book out and everybody's radio right now. What about you, Daniel. yeah I think probably.
Daniel Fred:Two things I think it's important to always tell people i've met, I mean all kinds of people that are in recovery and so we're have all kinds of stories. And i've never met anybody that's like man I wish I would have never got sober. You know I mean everybody who's going to go down the path it's absolutely been worth it. And so I think that's important to know like is daunting and as difficult as it seems that as much as you feel like you lose it's absolutely worth it. And then the other piece, I think, Tuesday Kimberly you're worth it, you know you're not the sum of your mistakes you're not the sum of. Everything that's happened to you you're not the sum of your trauma even I mean. And so you know to just even if you don't feel it's true or you can't see it, I think it's important important for people to you know tell themselves that they're worth it, and they deserve this and it's it's okay to to try it and. Who knows, even if you try to 100 times you know, this could be the thing or the way where it sticks for you and it's a good experience, and so I think those are the two things it's it's you won't regret it and you're absolutely worth it.
Melanie Flores:Thank you and we'll end with. lisa's pearly words of wisdom.
Lisa Lee (she/her):I don't know how I can follow Daniel those pretty. awesome. Thanks i'm going to go easy on myself um. No, I. I think my words of wisdom, would be to connect with purpose like really do some self evaluation and connect with purpose like really find what. creates a feeling a magic in you, whatever that is like if it's writing or animals or Whatever the case may be, I think, really connecting to that and then figuring out. How to make that actionable every day like just a little little thing I tell myself like one bite at a time. Because it always like living with anxiety, you always feel like an elephant is sitting on you and you know. that's how you did an elephant one bite at a time I get really overwhelmed easily so like when you can take what. connects you to life, what makes you want to be here on this planet and then just make it into small little accomplishments. Right it's one bite at a time and also trust your wings right, I always think about us is like caterpillars and then becoming butterflies, and this is like a theme in my life and i'm probably. hyper fixated on it, but I really feel like you know when you're a caterpillar crawling around you're like chomp chomp chomp i'm very hungry. caterpillar you're not even thinking like that could be me one day flying in the sky you're like what the hell was that that's weird right. you're chomp chomp chomp and along and I feel like you know, then you see, then, you see one of you, you see a caterpillar going through this like weird processes cocooning and metamorphosis and you're like whoa. that's a possibility, like no way man like that's possible for me i'm just chomping along you know, and then you see that and it creates new possibilities, so I think like look for possibilities and don't be afraid of your wings.
Melanie Flores:that's it Thank you so much for your time today we'll go ahead and. It.