Your Prices Reveal More Than You Think

Last week on Honest Brew, we talked about the scarcity versus abundance mindset and how fear can quietly shape the way we operate in business.

This week, we’re taking that conversation into a more practical direction through pricing.

Because pricing your work is rarely just about picking a number. It influences how people perceive your brand, the clients you attract, and how sustainable your business becomes long term.

In this episode, we unpack the realities behind pricing as a business owner. From undercharging early on to navigating custom proposals and client expectations, this conversation goes far beyond generic pricing formulas.

A candid conversation between three seasoned business women who've been in the trenches of entrepreneurship. We bridge the gap between the glamorous just market and sell advice and the reality of what it takes to build a sustainable business. While most business content focuses on marketing, branding, OR operations in isolation, we bring all three worlds together. Because your brand culture needs to live in every system you create, your operations need to support your brand promise, and your marketing needs the infrastructure to deliver on what it sells.

We're here for the solopreneurs ready to grow beyond themselves, the partnership survivors rebuilding stronger, and anyone tired of business advice that treats branding, marketing, and operations as separate planets when they're part of one ecosystem.

HOSTS

Cheale Villa, Visual Caffeine, visualcaffeine.com / Monique Johnson, MoJo Design, ...

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome to Honest Brew, unfiltered conversations on business growth. We are here for entrepreneurs, solar entrepreneurs, ready to grow beyond themselves. We're three business owners tackling the messy middle where branding, marketing, and operations collide because band-aid solutions won't build the business you actually want.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I am Shelley from Visual Caffeine. I am Monique from Mojo Design, and I am Sarah from Indigo Elephant.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Today we're talking about the thing that I would say many business owners struggle with right from the get-go. And even 27 years later, I have my moments of struggle. So what I'm talking about is pricing. It is an ongoing journey, but we're not here with the formula kind of pricing advice. We're talking about what actually happens when your brand positioning, your marketing strategy, and your operational reality all have to agree on a number, which, spoiler alert, they rarely do on the first try. So whether you're trying to figure out what to charge for the first time or you're realizing you've been underpricing for years, you're about to have that terrifying conversation about raising your prices. This one's for you. Let's get into it, ladies. I've got my caffeine. I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Well, I would like to start by saying when I very first started Mojo Design many moons ago, um, I wasn't sure what to do. And usually when I'm not sure, I have to educate myself. So I did some research of in my geo my location of people with the same or similar skill set and just kind of like see what's out there and what their pricing is. And so I started, I use that as sort of my beginning template. But as time goes on and you have your different experiences throughout your career, you gain skills that maybe someone else doesn't have, or you start specializing in something that other people are not. And so inevitably you're gonna increase your pricing. And that's just kind of based on uh your experiences and what you kind of offer. So that's been my general way that I um figure out my own pricing. Now, I don't have a team, I'm sure Shell has like a little bit of a different vibe there because I just have to worry about myself. So that's kind of the easy part for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

And the same is true for me. I don't have anyone working for me either. And I'd say for me, when I started off as a virtual assistant and my first opportunity, they came to me and were like, I'll pay you this much. And I just took it. And I feel for a while when I was doing virtual assistant work, I kind of just took what people gave me because I didn't know what I didn't know. And I was more hungry for experience. However, when I started in Nico Elephant with my then business partner, that is when we got more tactical with our pricing. Like we looked at what are our experiences? Like they're getting two of us for the investment of one. Like, what do we need to live sustainably? And we agreed on a number. We did hourly packages. And then to how I price now, I just do packages. I moved away from tracking my time, sending invoices. It's like this package will deliver on these X, Y, Z things that you need built. And then if you want ongoing support afterwards, we can discuss that. So I do have my flat rate based on the experience. And I am always curious what people's budgets are because that also can kind of help ground me to like, okay, this is what they said, but how much am I pouring into this? What happens after I'm gone? Because that is a huge ROI that sometimes we don't think about. And that's why we devalue our work rather than ask actually asking for what we're worth.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

And I love that you brought it there because pricing tends to feel really personal and then in turn becomes very paralyzing. Um the overwhelm of Googling how to price my services and getting like 47 different formulas, and nothing really gives you that solution. And so I really want to dive into how to move away from that because my experience with dealing with lots of business owners over 27 years and having most of them be paralyzed when it comes to understanding their pricing. There's a few things in there. And I'm gonna start with um kind of the the branding side of it is that pricing is a positioning. You know what your rates are saying about who you are, because at least in Moneganize industry, you can have someone who charges $50,000 for a logo, and you can have someone who charges $200 for a logo and everything in between. So there is really a place to start of, I think, with your values. Now, I value for my company working with solopreneurs and small businesses and startups. I love working with people from there. So I know I need to take my consideration and my pricing to it being something realistic for them.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, I it's a really good point because if I worked as a designer for um an agency, even if I mean as a contractor, right? Like say they had a lot of work and they they outsourced and they hired me as a contractor, the fee that I would charge them is completely different than what I would charge my normal solopreneur. And so this is something that really does come with experience. It's knowing that what you're charging is going to be affected by who your target audience is. I also am like Shell, I love working so much with solopreneurs and small business owners. And I know that they have a more limited budget. So I have to balance the kind of work that I do across the board. But I do think it's important to say I'm gonna try to get two agency clients and charge this fee, and then I have my bread and butter solopreneurs and charge this fee. No one ever told me that that was the right way, but I sort of gleaned that over time. And that's that's sort of my method.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

I wanted to put a disclaimer on what you were pointing to, uh, Monique, because some people might say, whoa, you're giving people different pricing. The under the disclaimer I want to put in there is that when you're dealing with an agency or a large company, there is a lot more factors happening there. And I just invite you to look at what is it for your business to experience different types of customers, because you may want to consider that this customer, well, I'm having to deal with multiple people. That actually takes more time for you, or multiple or larger challenges because they are a larger business. Like I want to clarify that in every business, we should be looking at the customers, the type of basket customers that we're working with, because we may determine a different pricing structure because the challenges are different.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

That's a really good point. I'm I'm glad you pointed that out because it's um just shining a light on the intricacies of each client and each type of project. They're not all the same. And I now solopreneurs kind of the one, at least the the types of projects that I do more so than than not tend to be very similar in structure and the deliverables. When it comes to agency work, it's like a different animal. It's always completely unique. And so, yes, thank you for pointing that out.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

And I would say for me, what helped me detach from my pricing a bit was not assuming what someone can afford. Because if someone really wants something, they will find the resources from it. So that helped me not overthink what I wanted to price at and really lean more into like, what are they asking of me? Because four, I like to do go high-level build-ups, for example. That takes a lot more time and energy. And I want to build something that's custom to them because someone who's like me, just getting married, has no kids, what I need system-wise is very different than a single mom of two. So that type of work is gonna be more because I'm pouring more customization into it. Now, if you just need me to consult and just listen to you, and I'm not implementing, that's also very different. So I've kind of leaned into really understanding what are the outcomes of a project, what is required of me, and then pricing it that way. And then I always go back and forth with people on it to ensure that we find something that is an alignment. And with that said, I do feel like the more experience I get, the more my business evolves. I may move away from that. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

I like what you're pointing to. And I think this also is kind of a difference as in business because, like I said before, what I do is I know I kind of find the it's kind of funny, the messy middle of that. And in in our specific industries, you do have people charging $50,000 for a logo. I don't care how much somebody wants a logo or wants a logo created by either one of us, if they are a solopreneur, they're gonna be like, okay, screw it. I'm going on on uh Canva and just having that's already there. So there is a messy middle in there. And I think like what I think Monique and I, at least in our experience, and I only point to this because we're not the only industries this happens in. Some industries are a little more clear-cut. Like if you're an accountant, there's a very clear-cut way you price. And I'm sure that there is some messy middle even for them. But I think one thing that is great about our triangle here is that we're talking about balancing between your value and making sure that you are getting value of what you deserve. You and I are both like 30 years of experience. Somebody coming out of college and doing a logo, that's a very different dynamic. So, yes, we want to take into account that, but then there's the consideration of the direct client you're working for. So it's like, what feels peaceful to me to charge, knowing that it would be within the budget that they are putting out there. So I think that this is beautiful because we are able to present obviously different ways of pricing and different ways of looking at pricing, but it does have to do with industry too. And what are you facing in your industry and what what challenges that industry brings for you?

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Yeah, I I love what you just said reminded me so much of a proposal that I just did yesterday. When I was going through it, um, I just sort of looked at the list holistically and I'm like, this could be phase one, this could be phase two. And because I wanted to present a not only an itemized list for her of things to knock off, but I wanted her to understand almost like this is what you need, and then this is like potential future. So when I stood back and looked at the two different lists, I had put like a project price on it. It just felt like I put myself in her shoes for a minute. I said, okay, if I'm her and I'm like the solopreneur and she's just sort of like she's been in business for a little while, but she knows that her brand needs some love. How much would I be willing to spend? And I ended up taking off like 500 bucks. I just felt like I want to be accessible to her, but I also don't want to devalue myself and my own skills. And so um I kind of wiggled some pricing around um within the two phases where I felt comfortable proposing that to her. But I also think that it she would be more willing to go for the product and hire me if I if it felt a more reasonable from her perspective.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

To sometimes stretch people. So I'll like shoot my shot. And then if they're like, what about this? I will always have a minimum in my brain of like, what's the bare minimum I will do for this? And oftentimes it is moving deliverables around. Cause for me in my industry of admin and operations, I'm sure with any industry, I've heard all the horror stories where it's like they pay something and they don't get what they paid for, or they get paid and then they the person goes. So for me, the proposal is laying out the transparency of the project and also me being an integrity, kind of like here's our boundaries, here's what it costs, here's what I expect of you and what you can expect of me. That way there's no blurriness that I have to worry about. And I've learned to not be so rigid with pricing. And I feel like when you provide a service, you do have more flexibility, especially as you get to know the person, as you figure things out. There's more flexibility compared to say you sell an online course or you have a membership. I feel like those are more clear cut. So that's kind of like pick your poison on like what you're selling. And I do feel like even if you are a service provider, you will end up sending or selling some type of digital product if you want more passive revenue coming in. So that is another thing to consider is like, what are you selling? What are you pricing? And especially if it's something new, something that helped me a lot is you can just go lower because you want data in exchange. Like you want the testimonials, the case study, you're building it alongside them compared to something where you're just taking over and doing it are very different things. So it's also like, what outcome do you want? Is it just the money or are you looking for data to revamp your service, product, or program and then increase the price of it later on?

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yep. I love that you brought that up. And um uh, I don't even know if I should say this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I remember so many moons ago, I what did more marketing design as opposed to brand design, which is very a lot of similarities, but also can be very different. And when I made the shift to only doing brand design, I didn't have a single case study because I had never done it on my own. And so I was in a women's entrepreneurial group. And the first branding project that I ever did, I did it for free. And I did it for free because I needed to, I think, prove to myself and the world that I could do this easily, no problem. But also, to your point, Sarah, I did it in exchange for being able to use that as a case study. And next thing you know, once you have that case study, the very next project that I did was a paid engagement. And I sort of like ramped up and I realized pretty quickly um that I not only did I have like the skill set, I people are gonna try like pay money for this. Like this is legit. I proved it and let's go, you know. So I so so it sounds a little scary doing one project for free, but it was heavily weighted on the fact that it was gonna build a perfect case study for my new path forward. So it was extremely valuable in another way to me, not just in a monetary value. I totally want to note on that.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

People are very, oh, I'm undervaluing myself by doing something for free, or I don't want to barter because they're all like so money focused. I have gotten some of the largest opportunities from doing things either bartering or for free. And it was opportunities not only for my experience, but also uh it led me to just honestly having very large clients being me directed to by those people to a very large client. I have never seen where giving something for free was ever a bad idea. But don't I've experienced so many business owners that like just oh, I'm I'm reducing my value, or you know, people aren't gonna look at me the same, or there is value beyond money. There is value in showing your relevancy, showing your experience. There's value in connection. Who are you being connected with? Who are they connecting you with? There is for everything that we do, it is not about the immediate thing in front of us. It is about that long-term game in it. And I always talk about marketing being people always look at like short, quick leads. It's a long game. Branding is a long game. Nothing is short. I think that our culture of digital media gives a false impression of everything being quick and short and and and um almost like you know, that quick satisfaction. And the stuff that works, the stuff that will build a solid business is going to be the long game stuff. And we all represent that here: the long game stuff, branding, marketing, and operations. You keep doing it, it will give its results. And pricing is no different. And with that, I want to talk about sales conversations when it comes to our pricing, because I think that there is understanding our sales conversations with what we've already created. You know, myself, we have some packages and stuff in price a certain way, but a lot of what we do is customized to the person we're talking to. Um, I think everyone here is similar. But I also determined that by even having sales conversations. Because those conversations wanna think of it as a research expedition. It's it's it's it's a way to just determine who do you want to vet to be your customer? Also, what are their needs specifically in their industry, specifically what they're asking you for? They are such a learning tool for you. If they're gonna be your customer or not, you have so much to learn in that sales conversation that is actually going to help you with pricing. It's gonna help you with your product product development, how you're packaging your stuff. So I wanted to dive into that and find out from you ladies, what is like the thing you've learned the most in a sales conversation?

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Oh, such a good one. Um, I, for me, the biggest aha, I mean, I would literally say it's the biggest aha in the past year, and I can't believe I haven't discovered it sooner, is through all these calls with small business owners in particular, I have determined that whatever business stage that they're at is it is pointing to like the services that they need. And so I've been learning about the kind of like what stage they're at in their business, how did they get there? And then I can determine what they need based on that. And so, but all of that was just learned over time, putting each new client into a potential bucket. Like, how far are they along in their business journey? Have they been a business for 10 years and their brand is a mess? Are they just starting out with a new idea? Are they somewhere in between? And so, with the information that I've learned over time through these sales calls, I actually did structure my packages according to those needs. And it's it is really super valuable in, you know, gathering information, even if you don't get the project, you're still learning about the person that is interested in your service. So it's still all valuable information.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

I feel like I've learned three big things over doing sales calls is I always like to ask them a budget question or what they're willing to invest before I even get on the call. Cause then that kind of helps me see like what their mentality is at. And then I will ask the same question again because sometimes after getting the talk, their mind opens a bit. Like they see more of like, I would actually, this feels good to me, or even with deliverables. Like I had a call yesterday where they're like, Oh, I just want this quiz. And then she sent me like what she actually wants it to look like. Girl, she wants a quiz and then autumn, like automations based on tiers that go to certain products, then with tagging and fall. Like, that's not just a quiz, my friend. Like that's different, and I wouldn't have known if I didn't ask. And then the last piece is for operations. The ROI you get with someone who does operations for you is very different than someone who does like marketing, sales, or even design. My ROI comes from the long game. So rather than say you hire someone to do your ads and you start seeing return within like 90 days. For me, when I present operations as an ROI, it's around your time. Imagine just having like five hours back in your week, or even for your team, your energy, your mental capacity. You no longer have to think about did I send that proposal to them? Did I follow up with them? You get a return that way because if we think about, say, 2025, how many follow ups did you miss? And then calculate how much a lead is. That's how much money you lost because you forgot to follow up with. them so that's also something too is some people come in really heavy about ROI and that's also something for me I like to can take into consideration with my pricing because I know they can make back what they vested me tenfold by getting these things in place and having it be maintainable.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Everybody has a in their business they have an ROI that doesn't have to do with a money return, but is still just as valuable. I think it's really important to be thinking about those things because we do get stuck in a trap and this is go back to our like it feels personal because all we're talking about is money. Right. Um and to be from a coaching a coaching viewpoint people have their money stories very early back I had a potential client who is actually my B I group and he was a business consultant and I did a proposal with him and then we had our follow-up call. Side note always schedule that follow-up call when you have your proposal call i mean your your uh discovery call with people but anyway I had my follow-up call with him and he gave me such a beautiful way of looking at how I'm presenting my proposals and what he said is always have a good better best scenario never just give one scenario that was I mean this was is literally 26 25 years ago it was advice that I pass on to anyone I know is that you want to have more than one option for people. The reason for this is that people will then tend to pick one versus be like just that one option they have an aversion to something there and they don't see the flexibility right with people we work with we give that good better best scenario and then what we end up doing is we most of the time bring something custom together. It's like I like this and I like this and I like this but it does give them that range too and that's what I have learned. The other thing I have learned is that always ask my favorite question which I used to only ask in the actual after they hired us in our process of working together and the discovery process. And what that question is is where do you want to be in 10 years? Because that gives me a an amazing amount of information from a client that they never would have given me automatically I need to understand what is their grand vision for their business, for their lives 10 years from now that tells me so much about not just what they're coming to and requesting but also where their mindset is because usually we box ourselves into with the immediate place. But when you ask someone that question then it really gets them out of the box and then you go, well, wait a minute you could do that right now. And there's just it's just an unlocking of so much value. And I have to tell you so many people appreciate that question and so many people get shocked by it too.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Number one, Belle's advice makes me want to revamp my sales process. I would say always give yourself space to get your initial thoughts out on pricing, the package, whatever it is, go to bed and then look at it the next day and then send it. That's what I always do now because that just helps me come from a grounded place rather than a frantic place, especially if I have other things going on.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah I think it's really smart to give yourself time to digest something and not just send it right away. When I'm doing more of my kind of bread and butter projects, I've done so many of them now and I used to track all of my time. Now I do more project based because I know how long things are going to take. And those are a little bit more I hate saying the word but they're a little bit more formulaic like I just know what those are. So I think um for those it's easier for me to crank out a proposal or an estimate. But when it's something that's like off the bean path like I haven't done it in a long time and I need to put a lot of thought into it I like to kind of write up the proposal but to Sarah's point give myself time to sit back and read it again the next day and and assess it a little bit more. So I don't know if that's really a story but it's sort of my method.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah. And I love that and I also love to Sarah's point this is a bigger issue before we go to last sips I'm going to leave you a quote that I said to my client this morning the worst time to look for business is when you're desperate.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

And with that true last sips I mean how do I branch off of that quote oh my goodness so I feel with pricing is understand what you're trying to get out of it. Yes we all want money but there's deeper things that we want out of partnerships with our clients it could be experience the testimonial the collaboration who do they know that they could then serve you with there's always a bigger thing that isn't just a short-term invoice getting paid a long-term relationship can be built from it whether whether you're just starting your established solopreneur you have a team always give yourself space to think about your pricing so you can discern when you're making it personal versus you're being objective with it. Always shoot your shot in the proposal you never know what someone can say yes to because if someone really wants to work with you they will find the resources to do it. And just because something feels like common sense to you doesn't mean it's common sense for someone else. So never devalue your work.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Beautifully said as always I'm going to savor that. And I do want to leave with a little bit of a a footnote off of my quote there the best time to look for business is when you don't have time to guarantee you you'll be less way less likely to have those moments of bad down business. Have a wonderful day hope this served you as much as it served us both being here for you. And we'll see you next time