Asbestos Still Kills
The ‘Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® (A.S.K.) ’ provides interviews with professionals from the Asbestos and Environmental Industries worldwide. ‘Asbestos is the biggest workplace killer in New Zealand. The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that occupational exposure alone leads to over 200,000 deaths annually.
Presenters:
Robert McAllister - FAMANZ Director
Dr. Terri-Ann Berry - Environmental Innovation Centre (EIC); Associate Professor, AUT, School of Future Environments
Jason Milner - Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd (AMC)
www.asbestosstillkills.com
asbestosstillkills@gmail.com
Asbestos Still Kills
Episode 2 - TEM: Is it Asbestos or not? Asbestos in kids play sand! (Part 2 of 2)
Asbestos has been identified in children's coloured play sand by an Australian Laboratory.
We interview Michael Shepherd from COHLABS - TEM in Brisbane, Australia who explains the differences in Asbestos Analysis methods and why TEM - Transmission Electron Microscopy is the future of Asbestos analysis around the world.
The ‘Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® (A.S.K.)' Team provide another exciting Podcast which will not leave viewers disappointed. This interview has been released in 2 parts over 2 weeks.
Presenters:
Robert McAllister - FAMANZ Director
Dr. Terri-Ann Berry - Environmental Innovation Centre (EIC); Associate Professor, AUT, School of Future Environments
Jason Milner - Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd (AMC)
Website: www.asbestosstillkills.com
Email: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com
The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is Sponsored by:
Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd - Expertise you can trust
https://asbestosmanagementconsultants...
The Environmental Innovation Centre
https://www.environmental-innovation.nz/
For information on asbestos-related diseases or to contact the Mesothelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust please go to:
https://www.msaatrust.org.nz/
🎙️ Podcast Disclaimer — Asbestos Still Kills
The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of any individuals, organisations, employers, or affiliated bodies.
While every effort is made to ensure accuracy, the podcast may discuss topics involving health, safety, legal, or environmental matters. This content should not be taken as professional, legal, or medical advice. Always consult qualified professionals regarding asbestos-related issues, workplace safety, or health concerns.
The creators, hosts, and producers of Asbestos Still Kills accept no liability for any loss, injury, or damages arising from the use of, or reliance on, the information discussed or displayed. Listener discretion is advised, as some episodes may contain sensitive or distressing content related to asbestos exposure and its impact on individuals and communities.
The creators, hosts, and producers of the Asbestos Still Kills podcast ® accept no liability for any loss, injury, or damages arising from the use of, or reliance on, the information discussed or displayed. Listener discretion is advised, as some episodes may contain sensitive or distressing content.
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Thank you for listening.
Don't forget to subscribe for future podcasts.
More Information is available at www.asbestostillkills.com
Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com
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Don't forget to subscribe for future podcasts.
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Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com
Espacio steel kills.
SPEAKER_02:Only last week I I had some samples come in and they're and they're colored sands. So the colored sands, these colored sand samples came from China. And they're used in uh kindergartens and preschools. So they're you know they're the fluorescent, the red, the yellows, the the blues, the the pinks, etc. And we actually identify them as tremolite asbestos. And incidentally, about a week later, we had some some more sands, another 20 come in, and all 20 of those came back positive for tremolite.
SPEAKER_03:I mean that that story is that they're around the coloured sand. I mean, that's terrible. I mean, you you're you're dealing with the most vulnerable parts of our society, that's our children.
SPEAKER_00:We don't actually know the risk. We don't know how likely it is that the fibre is going to be able to be liberated from that sand and become airborne and for it to be respirable where it's gonna do most of the damage.
SPEAKER_04:For listening to the asbestos still kills podcast, please see the disclaimer on the website www.asbestos stillkills.com. Thank you. Episode two TEM Transmission Electron Microscopy. Is it asbestos or not? And the analysis of asbestos found in children's coloured play sand. In two parts over two weeks, featuring Michael Shepherd from Colabs TEM.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, it's a big challenge, I suppose, if you look out in the in in the industry at the moment. I mean we've got some regulations that be worked through with WorkSafe over here in New Zealand. And a big problem we face is around what is A class, what is B class, associated dust, and all of this in between. So you find, you know, from a practical perspective, uh you've got a lot of old age buildings, um, you know, 60, 70-year-old roofs that are still in situ, which are five per cement. And obviously they start breaking down over years. You get accumulative dust in the roof space, and you don't know the history, you don't know whether there was any previous uh you know, pipeline or any other materials up there when you're doing those level of assessment. So trying to determine the level of risk associated with the associated dust is something that sometimes I think we could do a lot better. And I think that TEM definitely gives us a method of understanding the associated risk. What is the risk of re-entraining those fibres back into air so you breathe them in? Um, you know, are we approaching it the right way when it comes to the remediation of that particular area? And as you say, the big part uh under conventional testing is that a positive-negative is is doesn't really determine the associated risk. I mean, if you've got a positive or one fibre, I mean, ultimately, what is the associated risk of that? And we're seeing some clients spending millions of dollars on remediations for a fibre, which is a real problem. And I think that you know, your your um input with the TEM stuff is is is needed and needs to be heard by everybody because that's the you know the golden goose that we say when it comes to understanding those associated risks.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and listen, there's a recent example in New Zealand where a consultant went out to a site, uh, took some swab samples in a lift shaft, okay, at the bottom of the lift shaft. Um, because there there was there was talk about you know the brake packs, the brake pads grinding away and and releasing fibers, and you know, various, let's say, key stakeholders got hold of that information and uh and they were they were trying to assess a risk without any of that particular data. And I took a series of swab samples in there and found that yes, there was a specific fibers, but they were considered background levels. And and we know that there is a background level, it was less than a thousand structures per centimetre squared, and they referred to this document by Millett and Hayes to have an informed decision. Now, I don't know the direct outcome of that. Now, the client then has an option and choice. Rather than blindly going in there, spending hundreds of thousands, if not more than that, in cleaning up uh these particular lift shafts and inconveniencing the occupants on the building. He can say, Well, I've got a document here, I've got a risk assessment, I've done some air monitoring, etc. We're okay with that. And we're quite happy to actually defend our position on that. And that's exactly what you're saying, Rob. It's about having that information to make a decision, an informed decision, based on the scientific data. And that's what we do in in our particular field. It's about that scientific data and collecting that data to make an informed decision. And I think you know, in society these days, um we we don't want to think and we just want to quickly just grab a sample, send it off, and say do it X, Y, and Z without really uh testing a whole process and the decision-making process.
SPEAKER_04:So when you when you get the sample sent through, if it's not actually done the template, so it'll just be a positive or negative result rather than a quantitative, because we've not actually measured out the area.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so yeah, obviously, we need the area. The other thing is that, like I said before, if there's a large accumulation of dust, do not use white samples, scrape it into the bag. Because you see, what happens with us is that if there's too much dust on there, we have to dilute the sample, right? Because again, if we have too many particles, so you can imagine this this white, and it's loaded full of, let's say, you know, all sorts of material from a ceiling space. We we put it into a beaker, and and that beaker is really murky, okay? And then we take an aliquot of that, we put it onto a TAM grid. Well, we're just gonna get hundreds and hundreds of particles on those. Now, those particles could actually obscure any asbestos fibers on there. So we have to do a series of dilutions. So then if we do a series of dilutions, let's say that you know our limit of detection is a thousand structures per centimeter squared, but if we've got to start doing, let's say, 10, 20, let's say we've got to do a hundred times dilution, right? Then all of a sudden your sensitivity goes up to a hundred thousand. Now that's that's not going to help anyone in terms of their interpretation.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I give you a result saying, well, the result is less than a hundred thousand um structures per centimeter squared. So again, you know, I I really say to people, think about how you collect your samples, know the limitations of those particular techniques, and speak to the laboratories before submitting samples.
SPEAKER_03:So the same those samples there. I mean, when you look at the ASTM standards and uh you sort of look at sampling techniques, I mean, what's your view opposing on microvacking? So where you're taking a swap sample, microvacking, because I know people that have done opposing samples next to each other in various locations, I mean hundreds. I mean, I've got experience of that as well. And what we found was around 15% variance in result, i.e., you know, more concentration with this the swap sample versus the um microvacking of the particular fields. Um, but again, it is, I suppose, is it a good level of between the two of them?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, again, there's there's limitations, Rob, with any of these techniques. And people say, well, if you wipe the surface, you you're more likely to pick up all that particular material, right? If you follow correct sort of techniques, as opposed to vacuuming a particular material, especially if, let's say, material is is is stuck to that particular surface. And they tend to try to use micro vacuums on soft furnishings. But again, my argument is that the fibers will be entwined into the fabric of that particular material. So, you know, again, are you going to be picking up all those particular fibers? And again, you know, we've seen it sometimes when we vacuum our own house. You know, we we have something, you know, let's say, you know, a feather, you know, that's come out of your cushion that's caught in the weave of the uh of the fabric of the carpet and you're vacuuming over it and it's not coming up. So, you know, it's similar with a with with a micro vacuum sample as well. So, you know, it it guessing you will get some variation, but again, we shouldn't be using the data and saying, well, you know, this is more accurate or that's more accurate. It's about just basically putting getting that information as as a high-level context of what the contamination is. So, but you're always going to get that with any, and and to be honest, even with wipe samples, if I was just to take a sample right next to each other, I'm gonna get various, I'm gonna get varying quantities of asbestos because it's not homogenous, as simple as that. So, again, it's it's understanding the limitations, and I keep saying this, the limitations and the context of what you're doing and what you're actually gonna do with it. Now, again, if you use the micro vacuum and you've got a million structures per centimeter squared, and a and and and and let's say you you you use the wipe sample and you and you got let's say 500,000, you've you've got a contamination issue that you need to investigate further. And that's what it comes down to. It's not it's not an exact science to compare exact results. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I'm gonna say it's not dissimilar when you're doing an air test and you are doing it under face contrast microscopy, and you get you might do a personal, and then you you get a busier filter, then it's all occluded, so you can't actually see the fibers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, correct. Now, we have had some some instances and and this happens in the in the mining industry where we've had dust overloads on a on a filter uh in in accordance with the membrane filter method, more than one-eighth of a gradual on average. You you you basically discard that. And they've sent it to us and said, Can you do a TM analysis? And it really depends on the dust lighting, but we have had success in actually doing that because the magnification is a lot greater, we can see into those gaps and count areas on there where there is no sort of obscuration of dust. So there has been some instances where mining organizations said, listen, we know it's a dust overload by by by uh PCM, but we want to know is there any naturally occurring asbestos on these filters? Can you actually do some analysis? Because it's more of a presence-absence. Have they got some, let's say, some tremolite on there, ttimolite and focalite on there? We just want to know whether we've got any structures on there. So, can you do that analysis? So, again, because of the high magnification, there are pockets on that particular filter that we can actually get into and actually see because they're clear of dust. So, you know, we have used again, it's it's not traditionally used for that, but there are techniques when we can we can actually use those sort of techniques for that.
SPEAKER_04:I've had a recent project where we were taking up the vinyl, the vinyl tiles, the vinyl tiles came back, they were positive, but the glue came back and it was negative under PLM. So they were going to grind the floor. It's negative, we can grind the floor. I said, No, we'll wait, we'll send it off for TEM and then if it comes back negative, then we can grind the floor because we don't want to put anyone at risk. And it came back and it was positive for quite a tile. So it's just as well we we took that extra step to get it checked by by TM.
SPEAKER_02:And listen, if you if you actually think about this, it's not it's not surprising because if you've got vinyl tiles that that are actually positive, okay, it means that you've got other asbestos in that particular building, right? So if you think about it, when they were actually constructing the building, right, they're probably cutting sheets and and they probably didn't have the same controls as what we did uh what we do now back then. So they're cutting sheets, probably shaping them, probably sanding the walls, etc. blah, blah, blah. They've probably never cleaned the floor properly on those construction sites. Then they basically they they tend to put the floor down last, don't they? Um, because they don't want trace people actually walking over it. So then they adhere some actually glue on there. So that's in that's encasing and trapping those fibers in the construction of that, and then you actually put the volume tiles on top of it. Yeah, so you know, it's not surprising that we do get these and the glues every now and then in these buildings that come back positive. It just it makes it makes sense to me uh that you know that you know it's it's been trapped there for many, many years, and it was probably during the construct phase. And it is similar to what you said, Rob, you know, in in terms of uh you know, ceiling spaces with the specimen roofs. I mean, I I typically don't take samples in a in in in a ceiling space because I know that when they were installing the roofs, they were cutting those roofs up on, they're cutting the sheets up on the roof, they were drilling bloody holes, put nails in. There's no doubt that you know, if I look hard enough and I take enough samples that there will be asbestos there. And we put the precaution in it. But what you were saying is that how do we convey the risk? This is when we can take dust samples to actually convey the risk to people in terms of you know doing some either wipe samples or some some analysis of that dust sample to try to quantify the extent of it there. So it's more from a risk perspective and risk communication perspective than saying yes, it's there or no, it isn't, because most of us would, if we looked hard enough, we'd actually find the presence of that asbestos there.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, when you look at that as well, we have an example for you of that um uh they were looking up in a roof space, and uh there was historically some cement roofing that was previously on the building, been changed many years ago and so forth. And um, they suggested the consultant did a did a swab and said, Hey, there's a there's some asbestos fibre still present within the roof space. So um instead of reacting to that, what we said is actually do some TEM testing to assert what that level of risk would be. Now, in this particular situation, they did some additional testing up there and they had in the millions of fibres that coming back. Now, the first thing we went to is did you do and take the samples correctly? Because that's a big problem that we face, is they swab massive areas and then send it off without any determinant on that basis. But in this particular situation, we did some more due diligence and we found that there was actually uh an old boiler up there, and all the pipe work had had all of the legging removed previously, and uh we found that they'd removed all that lagging with essentially hammers, uh, which is a really bad removal technique from anybody, I can say that, uh, which spread that fibre concentration massively through. And then over years, the dust had accumulated on top of that to hold that sort of fibre down. But we did find um really, really high levels so that we could deal with it appropriately instead of just going in there and using techniques that would essentially disperse it even more and put anybody doing that removal at risk as well. So there's a real balance between um, you know, for me, I was come from a risk perspective, understanding that risk. And I think that TEM sampling gives you the tools, in addition to all the other sampling techniques, to actually try and identify that a little bit better.
SPEAKER_02:100%. And and what we're finding now is that you know, asbestos is still used in a lot of countries around the world. Yeah. I mean, New Zealand and Australia, we we do have some, let's say, prohibitions about what comes into this particular country, but it's still coming into this country, and and and TM is really helping to actually identify that. So, you know, for example, I mean, only only last week I had some samples come in and they're and they're colored sands. So the coloured sands, these coloured sand samples came from China, and they're used in uh kindergartens and preschools. So they're you know, they're the fluorescent, the red, the yellows, the the blues, the the pinks, etc. And a consultant in New South Wales or or a laboratory in New South Wales contacted our lab and said, Michael, we we we found we we've isolated some some fibers in in these hands, and um, you know, we're calling it under AS4964 uh unknown mineral fibre, but we really want to know what they are. And they submitted them to us, and we actually identified them as tremolite asbestos, so tremolite asbestiform, not cleavage fragments, but actually asbestiform in sands. Now, without this sort of technology, they could have been called unknown mineral fiber, and people might have waved it away and said, listen, you know, that's that's probably in you know an interference, we don't know what it is, and people would have ignored it. But this this consultant and laboratory said, no, we we want to investigate this a little bit further. And incidentally, about a week later, we had some some more sands, another 20 come in from an educational provider. So they provide products to the educational industry, and all 20 of those came back positive for Tremolite. So, you know, this this technology, electron microscopy, and able to identify the non-commercial types, as well as you know, fibers that are very fine, is going to help us in the future as well. Because asbestos isn't a legacy issue, it's an ongoing threat to our particular country. Yeah, and we have to be mindful, and without this technology, we wouldn't be able to successfully identify this. And and we've seen we've seen other products, for example, kids' clowns. Kids' clowns are made up of talc. And many years ago, I I had a I had a client that submitted them to our for a PLM analysis, and we didn't find anything. So, out of interest, I submitted them to the TM, and we found we found Tremolite asbestos there as well. And I went back to the client, and this puts us in a difficult predicament. And I said, listen, we've we've we've done TM analysis, and I have a moral and ethical obligation to actually tell you that there's actually Tremolite in the sample. By the way, here's the results, here's the certificate of analysis, I'm not going to charge you. And the reaction from the client was quite hostile, quite aggressive. I didn't ask you, I didn't ask you to do that. Yeah, and I wish you hadn't done that. They didn't want to know, because they're obviously importing this material from overseas.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And they, you know, I suspect they knew the limitations of PLM. But you see, our regulators and people that control our borders, and and this is a big gap, don't know the limitations of the analytical techniques. So they say that all you need to do is analyze, and and back then it was AS4964, and AS4964 didn't incorporate electron microscopy techniques, and that's all they say. So products, there's no doubt, over the years, products have come into this country, and we don't know the full extent of that, that are contaminated with a species. Now, the risk of that might be low. We don't know, but we haven't done a risk assessment associated with that. But first and foremost, we need to identify the presence before we can formulate an assessment of risk. And unless we know it's there, how can we formulate a risk assessment and communicate what that risk is to the community? We can't do that. So this is where this technology is really useful, but it's also knowing what the limitations of our current technology is as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, that that story you said there around the colored sand. I mean, that's terrible. I mean, you'd you're you're dealing with the most vulnerable parts of our society, this is our children, and they're playing with that sand. Uh, and obviously, we looked at asbestos in the latency period before you know you generally would could contract them is feed the oma. I mean, it just puts them right in the middle of their adulthood. You know, they could be at that time with young families and they get this diagnosis, which is which is terrible. I mean, I was um it was only a few years ago now we had uh the gauze mats in schools in New Zealand where the manufacturer was changed over to um to China that had come in and there was tremolite in the gauze mats as well. Now that was identified, it went to a lab for conventional testing and they couldn't report on it, and it then got subsequently pushed for TEM, which identified that these were um tremolite containing. So there was a big mass run around all the schools to get these gauze mats, which are, as you know, uh used in science, they're heated and cooled and they break down over time. And these are kids doing experiments, yeah, up close and personal with that particular material. So the risk there is elevated because of the way you use the product and the material. So, I mean, it is a hole, as you say, when it comes to importation of goods, and it's really worrying, especially after it's you've already said about the doors, you know. Who's checking this stuff is the question.
SPEAKER_05:AMC. Expertise you can trust. There is a new dawn in New Zealand. Property owners and organizations face increasing asbestos responsibilities. Asbestos management can be a complicated maze to navigate. But with the right guidance, you can manage your asbestos safely, confidently, and compliantly. That's where Asbestos Management Consultants AMC comes in. Independent, impartial asbestos experts, helping you develop and implement effective asbestos management strategies. From document reviews and management plans to policies and asbestos training. AMC provides asbestos compliance solutions you can trust, based in Auckland, trusted nationwide. AMC is one of New Zealand's most experienced asbestos consultancies. AMC, asbestos management consultants expertise you can trust. Visit our website at www.asbestosmanagementconsultants.co.nz But there's also, Rob, a big gap in conveying this information out to the regulators and border force because we are we've got confidentiality requirements.
SPEAKER_02:I can't go knocking on the on the door of the regulator and saying, so I've had instances where the regulator has contacted our laboratory and said, Michael, um, you know, we need to know X, Y, and Z. And I said, Well, you need to give me an appropriate form that compels me and forces me to release that information. Because I don't want to be actually sued from my particular client. Now, I don't know what these particular clients or or these particular, let's say, consultants have actually done with that particular data. For all I know, they've actually grabbed it, put it in a bottom drawer, and found another supplier. But how long has that product been coming into New Zealand, coming into Australia? Are we looking at the supply chain? And and we saw that with the fire doors, and and and this was this this really was unbelievable that no one could actually ascertain the full supply chain of those particular fire doors. And and they they couldn't even determine the matrix of some of these fire doors, which products they actually utilize. And then, you know, there was rumor and speculation in industry, and again, no one's proven this otherwise, that similar materials were used in ceiling tiles. Because you've seen those acoustic ceiling tiles, they're very, very similar to the composition of what's in these particular fire doors. Now, there is talk and murmurs and rumors in industry, but again, people don't want to know. And I I've heard through the rumor mill that there are certain agencies out there that are aware that this might be happening, and they're saying, Listen, I don't want to know about this, I don't want to test for this, I don't want to investigate this because how do we communicate the risk? What are we going to do if the data's not favorable? And it's pretty sad that we have people in positions of influence that aren't further investigating these particular, let's say, rumors in industry.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it must be happening, it must be happening across a whole range of products. I mean, we can't keep drugs out of jails, which uh, you know, how can we keep asbestos out of this country? Yeah with the millions of imports and and and and the and and the industries that are still producing asbestos, and we don't know what we don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it's like face paints and uh and makeup that have been tested in Europe and they've found some other asbestos in them as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But again, wouldn't you think there's an active program here in Australia by the the people of influence to say let's let's grab some of these products from these countries of risk where we know we've had contamination and let's do a series of testing. Shouldn't there be that that responsibility and accountability for people of influence to protect our community? But again, people don't want to know, do they? And it's unfortunate, you know, it's it's um, you know, associations and uh uh like like yours and and and and the h and and and and and and other sort of associations that try to drive these sort of changes, but we're restricted on what we can actually do.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, I mean with the fire doors, it's uh piece of work that I was involved with and continue to be involved in. And the first question you always ask uh as a conscientious person is great, we've identified these doors. Okay, so what other doors, what other products do they use, what other products have the same insulating board within them, and have we tested all of those? And then the first questions you ask, and you you get a blank face, you know, and that working through this process, I appreciate that. But as you say, when it comes to the building industry, you have a supplier, supplier and supplier, sign and subby, sign and subby, and then then they've stored it for a little while and then they've put it on site. So tracking the material becomes quite cumbersome. But I think, as you said, with the uh as a border, essentially, you go well, if we had a lab or a testing facility for new products that are coming in, and then do spot checks on various products coming from various parts of the world, that would definitely go a long way towards finding this before it becomes a five or six-year importation problem that's tens of thousands of units are spread out throughout the populace. Yeah, I think that it's an arrias, it would be a reasonable step to do that. But again, when you look at that and you go, do PCBUs and these importers and and the people in charge, do they know about TEM? Is it available to them and do they even know the function of it? And that's a big question, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:And and and they don't, and and that's the issue, but it's up to us through these sort of forums, yeah, uh, through our various associations to start communicating. And it's up to the regulators to to and and people that can you know protect our borders to become aware of this sort of technology as well. And and we saw this with the with the Fidals. Um, it's an and and and it happened to me where you know I had samples, I looked under a stero microscope, I looked under a PLM microscope, couldn't find anything, sent the same sample down to TM, and we found we found asbestos in there. We found bundles of asbestos. Okay, now that helped us inform the decision that the contamination was widespread, right? For this particular product. Now, again, we suspected this type of product to contain asbestos because it had been confirmed that this type of product had PLM, but it just gave some more evidence that it wasn't an isolated case. So, again, it's knowing how to use that particular data. And listen, there was some talk early on that um yes, asbestos was present, but it was below the limit of reporting, therefore it's no asbestos. We actually submitted some samples through to the uh University of uh Queensland University Technology to do some sort of quantitative analysis in there, and they confirmed that it was greater than 0.01%. But because the material was typically non homogenous in these materials, and some some of these products I found lots of asbestos that you could see under a under a stero microscope, others I couldn't find any, and we found it by TN. But it just Did help us that the extent of asbestos was widespread and it wasn't limited to one particular batch or this particular product. And again, it's knowing how to use that particular information to determine what strategy are we going to implement to actually communicate the risk and actually try to rectify this particular issue. And with the fire doors, my view is quite simple. If they're sealed, they're installed, we just manage them like any other fire door on site. What I don't want to see is people pulling these out for the sake of pulling them out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I mean, from a risk.
SPEAKER_02:Other people might have yeah, yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I agree with you 100%. The challenges always come in when you overlay building regulations to that, and then you've got obviously clients saying, Hey, I didn't want to buy a special fire door, I want that removed and changed. And uh under the different contract law, they're required to remove it straight away to get a CCC for a building. I mean, it becomes really, really convoluted. And I think really the only way to address that is to go back to source. If you fix it before it becomes a problem, i.e. coming in and import it in, you then reduce the downstream cost effects of it, you know, and not bury your head in the sand and think that it's not a problem if I didn't know it was a problem, you know.
SPEAKER_02:But if we take this to the next level, I mean, should we be having discussions with the people that protect our borders and say, listen, these are the sort of products from our experience, because we're experts in this industry, that may contain asbestos. These are the limitations of the various analytical techniques. Should we have a campaign, a proactive campaign, for products from countries X, Y, and Z, and I'm not saying hundreds, but you know, it might be one or two samples every now and then, yeah, to actually verify whether they're asbestos free or not. And this is exactly what you guys are saying. You know, let's basically stop it before it comes in the country. But should that be conversations that we're having with the relevant people? Because I suspect the people that protect our borders aren't aware, they don't have the same knowledge as what we have. Yeah. They probably don't have the oversight, they don't have the transparency of what we're actually seeing in our industry. But there's a number of cases that we can actually cite that actually proves that it could be cost benefit to the community to implement such a program.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Do a representative TM sampling on the products coming in from those high-risk countries.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and they might be crayons, they might be make-ups, they might be talk powders. You know, I mean, I don't know, I don't have an infinite list, but we can look at the you know, we can look at some of those products from what we've seen in other countries, etc., to to actually see where asbestos was typically used. What sort of what sort of ingredients that do they use? So if they use talc, we know that there's a probability that there might be asbestos contamination. And we saw this with the with the I think, you know, and every few years it keeps raising its head. We saw it with the vermiculite issue. And you probably saw that in New Zealand, probably about five years ago. We had contaminated vermiculite that was actually coming into this particular country. So there must be a a plethora of products that we can highlight, give to Border Force, and say, let's have a proactive campaign of actually testing these particular products, and it's going to save, let's say, industry, the community, millions and millions of dollars per year. If we can just stop one of these products coming in, it's paid for itself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I I definitely agree. I mean, when you talk about TEM testing and being expensive, because that's a big you know, the elephant in the room. A lot of people say, Oh, it's quite expensive to test and we're going to choose a cheaper option. I would put it to them that uh, for example, with a fire door as a reference point, you get a fire door like that in a big$20,$30 million uh building development, okay, and you get to the end and you can't complete it because the fire door makes up part of the fire system. So you can't sanction or sign off the building for public use. So you sit there waiting, and obviously with this, you've got hundreds of thousands of fire doors to replace, so the the supply of them is constricted at that time. So if you wait six, eight, twelve, up to six months, even some situations to get replacement doors, you've got a completed project without any completed doors. Now, there may only be tens of thousands of dollars worth of doors, but there'll be millions of dollars of charges to the client without they knew that you know they wanted the building open for this time, they've got a public event book. There's all of these downstream effects, and I would I'll have it that they cost tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, for a few hundred dollar tests. You know, and I just look at that and I say it's just you know, it's just strange that people don't think like maybe they don't know, and maybe we do need to have more of these conversations, Michael, because I don't think they're seeing those downstream effects. So doing it right, do it the first time, you save money for everybody.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it goes back to education, doesn't it? And people being aware of uh uh of TEM. So can you take us through a little history of uh Collabs, TEM in Brisbane?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so many years ago I was I was in a corporate position, uh been there for uh for for a number of years, and in life you actually find that uh the more senior you become, the less skilled work you're trained to actually do. So you you tend to look at spreadsheets, profit or loss statements, uh safety statistics, compliance orders, etc. And we actually don't get back to what we're trained to do, which is science and hygiene. And I I have this motto in life that the life you want to live is on the other side of the work you're avoiding. For me, the life I wanted to live was have freedom, choose where I spend my time, do what I want to do, and the only way I could do that was basically set up collabs. Yeah, so in 2014, we we actually set up Colabs. Um, and we started off, and and and Colab stands for Consulting Occupational Hygiene, Laboratory Services, but it's also a play on words, it's it's about collaborate as well. Yeah, because I I learned in life that collaboration is the key to success. You collaborate with your industry partners, people that do other labs, your clients, that's how we succeed. And and and I worked this out at university very, very early that if I try to do all the work myself, I wouldn't get through in three or four years with a chemistry degree. But if I collaborate with people and you network, and and this is what I mean, we don't have the answers for everything, but it's about knowing where to go. You know, we started off as a um as a laboratory and and uh and a typical sort of hygiene practice, and then in 2020, just before COVID hit, um, I had an opportunity to to invest in in into a TM. And it was a bit of a sliding door moment. There was a couple of players that were looking to come into the Australian market, and uh uh I'd been president of the Asbestos Industry Association for about 20 years, and they wanted to lay of the land and and and and who's here and and what are people doing. And I actually said to them, there's a real gap in industry around technology and electron microscopy. And and I and I heard in Europe and US that it was quite big. So we we we sat down and um said, okay, let's bring this technology to to Australia. Um, let's be the first and um and let's see where it goes. And um, you know, we we we bought a TM from an organization. They were going to actually assist us in in actually running the actual machine, they were actually going to provide the technical resources. And after we handed over large sums of money and uh the equipment was delivered, they went into administration. I was left with this very, very expensive piece of equipment. And I had this idea that okay, that's okay. Uh, I've got a chemistry degree. I'm an occupational hygienist, so I work out how to actually use this myself. And I came to the realization that it's not a week, two-week, three-week, four-week month course that uh I need to do to become an expert in this particular field. So then we we looked at industry partners and and we partnered with a group in uh in France called ITGA, who were in Australia at the time. They they had one particular individual that was just looking and doing a reconnaissance sort of mission to see you know what the the market in in Australia was like. And I actually approached them at the AH conference and said, Listen, can can we have a bit of a chat? You know, I've I've got this dilemma. I've got this, you know, I want to bring this technology, I want to be the first, but I don't have the time, and I don't think I have the expertise and experience to actually set this up. A year of going backwards and forwards in terms of of contracts and working everything out and and investment sort of splits. Um we we we basically got collabs up and running. And you know, I look in hindsight now, and I think it was the best thing we've actually done because we've got this expertise back in Europe, you know, with thousands of employees and um and and technical expertise. And just to put this into perspective, we have over 25 individual standard operating procedures for TM. Right? So for PLM, I've got one. For face contrast, I've got two, but I've got over 25 of these. And and I and I look back now and I actually laugh, sort of thinking about it, that imagine if I tried to do this like myself. Oh, I just wouldn't have been where I needed to be, you know, and then you know, there's there's been a lot of help along the way, people like Frank Arenfeld, who's you know a great supporter of your particular industry, and um yeah, he did our he did our NATA assessment, and that was that was that was really bizarre because you know NATA is operates completely different. But Frank was over in the US, we had COVID restrictions, we'd invested a lot of money, we wanted to get this up and running, and um, you know, we had to come in at three, four o'clock in the morning, and it was set up like a a TV studio. Like we had cameras on our technicians here, we had cameras in our fume cupboards, we had cameras into our into our computer models. It was it was like a a network production, you know, at three o'clock in the morning morning, and I had NATA there, and I had people uh from NATA head office, you know, dialing in at three o'clock to see how this assessment was done, and it was done over a six to eight-week period. Wow. But Frank was Frank was at and Frank was our assessor, and we and Frank was absolutely fantastic because he helped us along the way. You know, and anyone that knows Frank is he's he's very generous in his time. And and he gave up his time and he educated and he said, you know, this is how we do it, and by the way, this is what I do, etc. etc. And it was like a it was like a even though we had the expertise over in Europe and we had you know an expert that had five or six years, etc., we still learnt from that. We we learned from that that that process. And and and I take that approach when I do NATO assessments now. It's not about passing failing laboratory, it's about lifting the standard. And it's great to have people like Frank out there that that that has this sort of you know, he has this outlook in life to actually mentor, encourage, improve, and lift standards. And he operates in the same space here. And listen, he's his company was operating, you know, remotely uh in the United States and offering services in New Zealand. But he he he welcomed with open arms say, hey, great, it's fantastic. Another another player in this particular market. And and and and I can't help, I can't thank him enough for how he supported us uh uh along the way as well. And it's it's great to see people in industry actually do that. But you know, that's uh listen, and there was you know obviously some some ups and downs uh as as we went along, and um it's uh you know it's a journey that at the time is tough, but you look back and you say, you know, you groan as an individual about that out of that the out of that experience. And again, it's about collaboration and and what you guys are doing, collaborating and and you know, obviously sending the message out there, that's what it's about. You know, you're not getting paid for this, but it's it's absolutely fantastic. And I think we all need to do that. You know, we need to work together. We're none of us are competitors, we've all got a common goal out here, okay? Yeah, and if everyone just has that same philosophy, we will basically go further in in our particular profession. I agree, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04:So have you seen a big increase in TM sampling then more demand from like two years ago to two years ago to now?
SPEAKER_02:100%. So, you know, I mean when we when we first started, we're lucky to get one sample and you know, one sample a week, you know, and you know at the time, you know, there was discussions bleeding edge versus leading edge, you know. And you know, and and again, you know, Rob, you you sort of mentioned about the cost, and the cost is several hundred dollars. Well, the cost from my perspective is is is cheap compared to the outlay that we had. I mean, a brand new machine, we're talking, you know, in the millions of dollars compared to a$15,000,$20,000, you know, uh, you know, uh, let's say PLM uh microscope. So that the cost is is comparative, and I would say cheap compared to the outlay. And you know, it's interesting, you know, we'd have phone calls from you know from from labs and saying, then I've got a hundred paint samples, you know, can you do them in a cheaper? And I said, no, I can't. I said, I can't because there is a process. There's no way of actually fast tracking it. It it's the same with PLM analysis, okay? Um, people say, Oh, can I get a discount for bulk samples? No, you can't, because the process is the same. I've got to take the sample out, I've got to spend 15, 20 minutes going through it under a stereo microscope, I've got to grab fibers out, I've got to put it in a refractive indexel. We don't have you know a machine, let's say, like an ICP to analyze, let's say, you know, uh metal samples where you load it up into an auto-sampler, you press go, and overnight you get all the results. It's very labor-intensive what we actually do. So, but to answer your question, yes, we have seen an increase um and and and a dramatic increase since from from where we first started. And it's great because people are now seeing the value. And see, price is what you pay, value is what you actually get. So people aren't seeing uh and and we get it all, we we get it all the time. You know, a few hundred dollars, for example, yeah, it's worth it because it's exactly what you were saying, Rob, before, you know, the downtime on a construction project is costing tens, if not hundreds, if not millions of dollars. Um, the unnecessary cleanup of buildings is costing tens of thousands, you know, if not hundreds of thousands of buildings. So people say for a few hundred dollars, I can actually limit my financial exposure. We're seeing it now on demolition surveys now, you know, where consultants are saying, Listen, I want to know this sort of stuff. I want to actually know what the results are so we can limit any variations.
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SPEAKER_02:It's all about the value proposition. And that's what we've always been about, is selling the value proposition. And listen, if you don't think it's valuable, that's entirely up to you. That's your opinion. All right. If you see value proposition, you see what this technology can offer, then it's there for you to actually utilize.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, as you say there, the value, you know, from some of the work that I do for us as clients as well, it is invaluable. We've saved the taxpayer of New Zealand just through what I'm doing with schools. Um, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars by doing it this way. But there's another part I really want to sort of reflect on, and one is as a licensed assessor myself, we're often asked to provide clearance assessments post-cleaning or or anything, and also comment on approaches to that removal remediation project. And honestly, there are gaps in our current um regulations that that leave you a bit exposed. So for me, I'm a very scientifically based person. I say, okay, if I tell you something, I want to be able to prove it scientifically. If I if I say, Well, I think it's safe, you know, they say it's the responsibility to say it's free from all aspects as far as reason being practicable. And you sit there and you go, Well, that could be defined many, many different ways by many different people. And as a previous life as a building surveyor, understanding the legalees of these projects, I'm always nervous to that point to say, hey, I want to measure twice and cut once in this particular approach. I want to make sure it's done right. So TEM for me was always a lifeline and always has been for me to reach out and say, IG, I want to know more about this. Is it safe? Is it safe? Quantitative, qualitative, you know, that type of things, I really want to understand before I put my name down on a piece of paper and sign to a client to give them the best advice I can.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And and again, Rob, it's like you're saying, it's having that technology available to make an informed decision, and that's what it's about. This this technology is is not there to, you know, like I say, do millions and millions of samples. It's not set up, it's it's too costly, as you said, you know, um, it's it's labor intensive, but it's a tool that you can use to make an informed decision, and that's what it should be used for. And and this is what this is what I try to convey to people. I mean, you know, if if you have a you know a Bentley in your in your garage, you're not going to take it out every day to go to the shop. So you might take your Ford, your Holden down there to the shop, but every now and then you might need a Bentley because you're you know you're picking up King Charles to take him for lunch. Um, so again, it's it's about courses, it's horses for courses, that's what it's all about. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So there was there was you, uh Cor Labs TEM up in Brisbane. Now there's going to be another laboratory down in in Melbourne, so it is becoming more more popular. So, what's the future of TEM in Australia? And all the labs are gonna pop up all over, do you think? Become more popular?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I as I said before, it's it's it's a high entry price, okay? Yeah, so it's it's one of those where people are gonna have to make a long-term, let's say, commitment to their their organization. And and and I hope there are more labs, because I I can see a long-term value proposition in this to industry. So it's great. And I think over time people will actually see the value proposition. Yeah, I don't think you we will see hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of this.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I can't see people investing the sort of money that what we have to get this up and running. And and this has always been one of the issues for uh for PLM and and PCM labs, is it's so simple the technology, and to start up you know, and buy a microscope and and and and have a you know a small clean space, the the starting price is is is is is insignificant. So that's why we've got hundreds and hundreds of labs. And again, it's not something again to to understand how to actually do the analysis. As I stated before, it's not something you can do a week course or a two-week course to to understand the intricacies of this sort of analysis. It's very, very complicated. And sample preparation, etc. And you really need to know what you're doing. So, yeah, I mean, we certainly need more labs, and I welcome all labs. Um, I mean, one of the issues that we've we've always had is around people offering proficiency programs for us. You know, we've had to go into international for that, and and and some organizations will not allow us onto their proficiency program because we're in Australia. So, you know, we've had pushback from people in the States.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So we have to set up our own internal sort of external proficiencies with international partners. So we're fortunate enough that we've got people like ITGA that support us that can actually run that sort of proficiency program for us. So, you know, the more labs we have, you know, the more support we have, the more expertise we have, the more people see the value proposition. Because, you know, I'm I'm a lone voice at this moment in time trying to promote this technology. And people will be critical and say, well, Michael, you've got a vested interest in this. Yes, I have, but let me tell you, well, you know, we are barely basically covering our particular costs on this particular on this particular technology. I mean, you know, to to get a service of this costs several thousands of dollars once a year. I mean, we had our we had our um circuit boards replaced recently, forty thousand dollars. Yeah, um, we're replacing our EDS, which gives us the chemistry of that,$100,000, because over a 10-year period, got that outlay of uh maintenance of maintenance costs, you know, which we are constantly upkeeping or going through. So, yeah, so to answer your question, yes, I I think there will be more labs, and I think some of the bigger players, the bigger laboratories will look at this sort of technology. Um it's whether they provide a service that is boutique. Um, and and for us, you know, it's not about sample throughput. I mean, you know, some some samples we lose money on. I mean, we have to because we have to do re-analysis and analysis, reprepare, reprepare, because we're not getting results that, you know, or we're getting conflicting results.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So we we have to do that. So because we can't say to a to a client we're gonna charge you hourly rates. They want they want certainty over lab price. And it's similar to it's similar to PLM analysis. You have some samples that you know are very easy. You might get a five and cement sheet sample cross ILM type, so like, bam, done in 10-15 minutes. But then all of a sudden you get a sample with a difficult matrix, and you've got to ash it, you've got to reduce it, etc. But I haven't seen any lab that says a cement sheet sample,$50, uh big gymastic samples$80, vinyl tiles,$70. Um, you know, calcium silicate samples are fire damage. No one does that. So, you know, it swings and roundabouts, and and at the end of it, you hope that you know, some take, you know, it evens itself out. So, yeah. Yeah. So I think there will be more labs. Um I hope, I hope there's more labs, uh, because we certainly can't do all the work, and and I certainly don't want to be, you know, uh running an operation that's uh 24-7. I mean, I started this business, as I said, because um if you run a business 24-7, myself as a director and other directors will have to be on call 24-7. Um and I don't want that. And you see, the most important thing that we have in life as we get older is is the currency of time, not money. Yes, um, it is time, and time becomes the most important currency we have. You can always make more money. If you lose money, you can make money, but if you lose time, you can't make up time. So, you know, for me, I want to see other labs because I don't want to be the only commercial lab actually offering this particular service. So um the others will invest in this technology and they see the value proposition. And uh and listen, having someone like as I said, Brian, investing in it, investing in this and knowing what he knows and what he's seen around the world is is to me uh a big tick of approval that this technology is the way to go.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. So how do we educate people going forward? The PCBUs, the artwork.
SPEAKER_02:It's about it's about doing these. It's about doing these these particular podcasts. It's you know, it's what you know we we had at Famman's where there was a presentation there. It was, you know, it will grow. Every certificate that we send out is promoting itself. Yeah, because people see that and they go, hey, crikey, gee, I never knew that. Great, fantastic. And every every service that we offer to a consultant, I say that we don't need to do business development and marketing, our product sells itself through its value proposition, right? And if it doesn't sell itself, right, then we're not offering a value proposition to the industry. Yeah, I I don't need to have to sell our services, but it's just making aware that these technologies and the fact that, to be really honest, that 5370 was actually implemented where it has this technology means that industry is aware of it because at the back of it it's got electron microscopy services. Yeah, and and the fact that we've actually got in there now that it's either asbestos yes or asbestos no, or inconclusive, you need another technique. Any any PLM laboratory will now say, Okay, I've got to give that option to my particular clients.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So it will self-promote itself over time, yeah. And people will see the value of it as as as you good folk are seeing the value of it as well. I think it's a massive step forward, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I was gonna say there, you know, we all understand that the key part to managing asbestos in properties and in in our countries is to understand where it is. And I think TEM gives a valuable look into you know uh where it actually is and is more accurate to where it is. I mean, I just look from my perspective, and something that always haunts me is that we know that just in New Zealand alone, four people a week are dying of a Mr. Tlioma. If you just judge that. And is that acceptable? It's just not acceptable. And these types of things at TN are required so that we know where it is and we can manage it appropriately. Because if we don't, you know, this is just going to carry on as material breaks down over time, it becomes more risky, it's not going away, and everyone thinks it's a problem of the past. And you know, I just want to make sure that everybody's aware it's not a problem of the past, it's a problem we're dealing with every day, and we're all passionate about doing. And I think TEM is just one of those methods of doing that, really, in my view, and uh and I'm pretty passionate about making sure that we've got all the tools available to put this thing and make sure that we improve what we're currently dealing with, you know. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:No, I agree, agree a hundred percent. And and as you said, Rob, it's not a legacy issue, it's a future issue, and we still have products coming to this country. And and it's interesting if you if you look at the at the statistics, what we're seeing is an increase in non-occupational exposures. But do we really understand where those exposures are coming from? Are they legacy issues, or is it issues like the sands? Is it is it the issues like young kids at an early age playing with these coloured sands in kindergartens and then developing their disease from that exposure, but we didn't know about it? Is it from the makeup that people are putting on their face, but we didn't know about it? Is it about the body tell that we used to cover ourselves with, you know, after we come out of shop? Do we truly, truly know where the non-occupational exposures are? Now we assume that it's from legacy products in in buildings, etc. But can we can we categorically and unequivocally say that that's the case? We don't. But it's as you said, it's not until we know where the material is that we can start making informed decisions about how we're going to manage those particular risks. And now, I hate to say, but we don't know where it's actually coming from.
SPEAKER_04:What's the most unusual product you tested, which you didn't expect to find asbestos in?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, listen, we we found it in in in in all sorts of different products, but the the the most recent one is is the sands. You know, it looked like it looked like beach sand to me. It was very, very granular, it was it was colourful, and I thought to myself, you know, I've heard of crayons before, I've heard of makeup before on the internet, I've heard of talk before, you know, I've heard of you know, you know, in in bitch gymnastics and and various vinyls and and fiberboards from overseas, but I've never heard of it in sands. You know, granular, you know, it was seriously, it it is like beach sand, but colored.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, um so one last question. Can you provide us a quote that inspires you, please?
SPEAKER_02:And and I probably mentioned this before, Jason Rob. The life you want is on the other side of the work you're avoiding. And you think about it, life is all encompassing. It could be, you know, your health, it could be your, let's say, relationships, it could be work. But the life you want is on the other side of the work you're avoiding. And why do people actually avoid avoid doing that work? It might be because of fear. It might be because of lack of discipline. Comfort zones. Comfort zones. Or it might be bloody hard, mate.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But we we we all we all get into you know, we look at things and we say, gee, it'd be good if we could do this or we could do that, and that's what I want. You can do it. But you've got to do the work. And and and and that, you know, it inspires me. And and even with your podcast now, you probably think to yourself, probably thought about it, you know, and so gee, I'd I'd love to be, you know, on these podcasts, yeah, but gee, it's a lot of work. But yeah, don't avoid doing that particular work to get the life you want. So uh yeah, that that that that that means a lot to me. Yeah, and and I always remind myself if I want something, if and we set up collabs because I wanted freedom. I wanted to choose the work I wanted to do, where I wanted to go, what clients I say no to, what jobs I say no to, what jobs I say yes to, as opposed to someone saying to me, You've got to go here, you've got to do that. But for years I was avoiding doing the work to actually set this up.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I hope from this podcast people take a lot away from this podcast. If a sample does come back under PLM, polarized light microscopy and it comes back negative, then there are options. You can send it away for TM just for the uh confirmation that there's definitely no asbestos there.
SPEAKER_02:Rob Jason, really thank you for the opportunity. Um, and uh yeah, I look forward to to working with you both again in the future.
SPEAKER_04:The asbestos still kills podcast. All rights reserved. Thank you for listening to the asbestos still kills podcast. Presented by Robert McAllister, Farman's Director, Dr Terry Ann Berry, the Environmental Innovation Centre, EIC, Jason Loma, Asbestos Management Consultants Limited, AMT. For more information on the Asbestos Stillkills Podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com For more information also to read and accept the podcast disclaimer before viewing or listening to this podcast, go to www.asbestillkills.com or contact us by email at asbestosstillkills at gmail.com For more information on the Mesa Telioma Support and Asbestus Awareness Trust, please go to www.msatrust.org.nz. Thank you.