'Asbestos in Project Management' With Helen Jackson

What are the legal Responsibilities of the Project Management Team managing Asbestos as part of your construction project? What are the 7 steps to success? 

We interview Helen Jackson from Torque IP in New Zealand who shares her Asbestos Management in Projects experience.

The ‘Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® (A.S.K.)' Team provide another exciting Podcast which will not leave viewers disappointed.

Episode Links:

https://www.torqueip.co.nz/

Torque IP is a New Zealand-based company specialising in building refurbishments, technology, security, and project management.

Presenters:

Robert McAllister - FAMANZ Director

Dr. Terri-Ann Berry - Environmental Innovation Centre (EIC); Associate Professor, AUT, School of Future Environments

Jason Milner - Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd (AMC)

Website: www.asbestosstillkills.com

Email: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com

The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is Sponsored by:

Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd - Expertise you can trust

https://asbestosmanagementconsultants.co.nz/

The Environmental Innovation Centre

https://www.environmental-innovation.nz/

For information on asbestos-related diseases or to contact the Mesothelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust please go to:

https://www.msaatrust.org.nz/

🎙️ Podcast Disclaimer — Asbestos Still Kills

The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is intended for informational and educational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of any individuals, organisations, employers, or affiliated bodies.

While every effort is made to ensure accuracy, the podcast may discuss topics involving health, safety, legal, or environmental matters. This content should not be taken as professional, legal, or medical advice. Always consult qualified professionals regarding asbestos-related issues, workplace safety, or health concerns.

The creators, hosts, and producers of Asbestos Still Kills accept no liability for any loss, injury, or damages arising from the use of, or reliance on, the information discussed or displayed. Listener discretion is advised, as some episodes may contain sensitive or distressing content related to asbestos exposure and its impact on individuals and communities.

The creators, hosts, and producers of the Asbestos Still Kills podcast ® accept no liability for any loss, injury, or damages arising from the use of, or reliance on, the information discussed or displayed. Listener discretion is advised, as some episodes may contain sensitive or distressing content.

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More Information is available at www.asbestostillkills.com

Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com

Thank you for listening. 

Don't forget to subscribe for future podcasts.

More Information is available at www.asbestostillkills.com

Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com 

Transcript

Welcome to the ASK Podcast

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Asbestos.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Competent project managers must always check for the presence of asbestos before work begins.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

So how many times have you come across projects or project managers that think they can do refurbishment or demolition works with an asbestos management survey?

SPEAKER_06 0:37

Some areas in New Zealand have very, very high pollen counts, very high dust counts. You've got to have builders on site using drop saws, creating dust. It's about keeping the contractors and the tradies safe.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

I think another important aspect as well is the tradies, uh the contractors, uh having asbestos awareness training.

SPEAKER_06 1:02

I'm really sorry, work safe. Sorry to have to bring you up to notify you this.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Stop, see my supervisor, and we'll get it checked so nobody's exposed.

SPEAKER_05 1:15

I see people come to MSA who have asbestos related disease, and there's nothing I can do. Whereas they are preventable.

Meet Helen Jackson from Torque IP

SPEAKER_02 1:25

For listening to the Asbestos Still Kills podcast, please see the disclaimer on the website www.asbestos stillkills.com. Thank you. Episode four. Asbestos in project management with Helen Jackson from Talk IP.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

Welcome to the Asbestos Still Kills podcast. I'm Jason Milner.

SPEAKER_05 1:56

I'm Terry Anberry.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

And I'm Robert McAllister. And this is episode four Asbestos in Project Management with our special guest, Helen Jackson from Talk IP.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

So today we're going to be discussing how asbestos is managed during your refurbishment or demolition project. So this is a real must-watch for all you project managers out there if you're dealing with a building that's got asbestos in it, especially in those older buildings. So hi Helen, welcome and great to have you here. Thank you. Really wonderful to speak to you today, and we'd love to hear more about your project management journey. So over to you.

SPEAKER_06 2:39

Thank you very much, team. It's great to be here. I'm flattered to be invited to partake in this show. I'm a fresh three and a half years in asbestos project management. I've got a few qualifications under my belt. I love the industry, I love the job. Um I find it very fascinating, and I think we're going to delve into some interesting stuff tonight.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

It's a legal requirement for a PCBU, person conducting a business or undertaking, to complete an asbestos refurbishment or demolition survey for buildings constructed before the 1st of January 2000. Just to give everyone some real context around the scale of the issue in New Zealand, roughly 50% or more of New Zealand commercial buildings were built before the 1st of January 2000. When we look specifically at office buildings, which make up a large proportion of our commercial building stock, research shows that 80% of existing office floor areas was constructed before the year 2000. With many of these buildings now being renovated, refurbished, or extended to increase their occupancy life, there is always a risk that asbestos could be disturbed during this work. That's why competent project managers must always check for the presence of asbestos before work begins.

Step 1: Asbestos Register And Asbestos Management Plan

SPEAKER_04 4:15

So today we have set out the seven steps of success to help navigate the asbestos management maze for your projects. So the seven steps you've got number one, you should have an asbestos management survey, asbestos management plan, asbestos register, number two, an asbestos refurbishment demolition survey, number three, an ARTO, it sounds rude, but it's not. And number four, ARCP, asbestos removal control plan. Number five, leads to your asbestos removal works, and number six, your four stage clearance and certification. And then number seven, to round it off, to update your asbestos management plan. So we're going to be discussing all these different steps in detail. So over to step one. Your asbestos management survey, asbestos management plan, and asbestos register. So an asbestos management survey, which creates your asbestos register, gives you a good indication of ATMs or asbestos containing materials within the building. So the asbestos management survey forms an integral part of your asbestos management plan. So you will need this information as part of the initial desktop study aspect of your project. So let's discuss the different types. So you've got the asbestos management survey, which is for occupation. So it's a minimum asbestos legal requirement in a building that was built before 1st of January 2000. So in more of an intrusive survey than you've got to do an asbestos refurbishment demolition survey. So you cannot do refurbishment demolition from an asbestos management survey. So Helen, what is your experience? Do your projects or buildings have an asbestos management survey or asbestos management plan prior to project commencement?

SPEAKER_06 6:33

Great question there, Jason. So a lot of my projects are um delivered through the Ministry of Education. When we initially um begin our work, uh schools in general do not have an asbestos management survey, nor do they have an asbestos management plan. Luckily, it is now a byproduct of our entire program that we send someone to do an asbestos management survey, and an asbestos management plan and register is created as part of our works, which is a bonus for the ministry, it's a bonus to the schools. Um while we've also got our surveyors on site doing a management survey, we also request that they do a refurbishment survey, which is in line with the scope of works which we are partaking on the school at a time in the future. Um but first we need the results from that survey to determine whether or not our work can actually go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

So, how many times have you come across uh projects or project managers that think they can do refurbishment or demolition works with an asbestos management survey?

SPEAKER_06 7:47

I would receive one email a week from outside project managers requesting copies of any asbestos surveys I have for the for the schools. I supply them with the management survey and I tell them that they must get a refurbishment survey completed in line with their scope of works. Because they cannot use my my refurbishment survey, because that is in line with my scope of works.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

Yeah, so an asbestos management survey will cover your, like we said before, room occupancy also for routine maintenance as well.

Step 2: Asbestos Refurb / Demo Survey Scope

SPEAKER_05 8:27

So on to the next step, as Jace mentioned earlier. The next step, step two, are asbestos refurbishment or demolition surveys known as ARDS. So as we mentioned previously, it's a legal requirement for a PCBU to complete an asbestos refurbishment or demolition survey in buildings built before the 1st of January year 2000. But what does a surveyor need before they start the ARDS? So, first of all, it's important to have the current AMS and AMP. It's really important to have a clear scope of the project, and Helen's just mentioned that, we'll go back to that in a moment. You also need proposed and existing plans and then details of all the refurbishment works. It's also really important to know that if that scope changes, because there's an additional works, then you'll need to actually get additional asbestos survey checks done by the asbestos surveyor. So, Helen, what are your internal procedures and how do you know if an asbestos surveyor is actually competent?

SPEAKER_06 9:29

So um we take our design, our our scope of works of the refurbishment work that we are planning on doing at the school that is given to an asbestos surveying company. Uh, we ask for a quote, um I've got a general ballpark of what it should take, how many hours on site. Um, if it's too low, then I would be questioning whether or not they're actually doing any detailed intrusive investigation or not. And that they have stated in their survey that there is no suspect materials found if they have not done any sound calls or anything. So there's certain key things that I'm absolutely looking for. Uh, I also run, I suppose, training courses with the surveyors. I will get them all on a on a call and I will go through in detail our plans. Sometimes it's very tiny type on your design scope. Um, I know a lot of architects' plans is very, very small, and the surveyor may not fully understand what this type of works is. A trick one here is called Fix and Float. Um, so it's a product which we're installing in uh stalls that have suspended ceilings where one side of the suspended ceiling is physically attached to the wall with a bracket. Um, in order to attach it, you need to lift the ceiling tiles, which means you're going into the ceiling void. Um you could be lifting that tile and they could be accessed to sit there. You're not necessarily putting an installation but you're installing these fix and float brackets. So um another one is troffer lights, so they're the lights that sit sit flush in suspended ceilings. In order for a contractor to remove and replace those lights, they're actually basically going into the ceiling. So I expect that the ceiling is surveyed to check for any aesthetics. It's about keeping the contractors and the tradies safe. I have spent probably 15-20 years in construction, I suppose. My background is quite technical. I studied engineering, so I'm quite a hands-on type person. Um I have spent time on site with tradies, knowing and fully understanding their scope of works, how that how do you replace an RCD, how do you replace through lights, how do you install fix and float. Um, in order to know exactly what work it is that they're doing, means that I can tell the surveyors, these are the areas I need you to check.

SPEAKER_05 12:01

It sounds very much to me, Helen, like you've been bitten before because it sounds like you're actually using a whole lot of your experience to set up sort of safeguards for yourself, you know, things like checking how long the survey's gonna take, taking photographs, it all sounds like fantastic solutions and things that people should look out to and start thinking about in their processes without actually naming any any companies or anything like that. Is there any any um example that you can give us? Maybe you found asbestos in a place you weren't expecting it, or maybe you know the survey wasn't carried out the way you expected it to be, that maybe you could share with us.

SPEAKER_06 12:38

Um luckily I've also done the IP402 training course. Um, so that has given me massive insight into where is where was SGS put in our buildings? Um, where are we likely to find it? You know, fireplaces inside your um your gaskets and boilers. You know, if I see a fireplace in a in a room, it's an instantly ringing alarm bells for me. You know, have we got fiber cement behind there? Is it AIB? What about the penetration around the flu? Um, so having that IP402 100% helps me understand where is it that we're looking for it. Um I'm also reading through the uh lab certificates and checking, did they actually sample XYZ? Did they actually sample? Um so sometimes the lab certificate is the most important part of the refurb survey to me because I'm actually looking at and you know, checking in my mind, did they check that ceiling board, did they check all the different places, did they actually sample it? So um there has been countless times and instances where yes, I have asked them to go back and resample or or I ring them up and I say, What about here? What about there? And sometimes they don't put all those photos into the survey, but then I they they then supply them to me and they can then update the survey. So yeah. The great news for all surveyors is if you produce an SBS survey for me, it will be read. All 200 pages, however many pages, every single page gets read. Um, we check it against the plans, so we're we're creating brand new plans for the ministry. We need to know exactly the room numbers, which area things are in. So they're getting read in detail. And I think it's a hallelujah moment for a lot of surveyors that they're like, wow, we have been producing these for so many years, no one ever gets past page one. Um, but finally they're being read, and I've got a team with me who all read them, and we all read them with you know very inquisitively and checking and double checking and and having our alert points of what we're digging for and looking for, I suppose.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

But look, that's absolutely excellent. It's so great to hear that sort of best practice approach, it's it's excellent. And you, you know, you mentioned IP402. I think actually everyone in the room today, we've all done the IP402, and it is a fantastic course. I've had a few of my sort of younger students do it, and they they always say to me, It's so hard. And I say, Yeah, uh, but that's a good thing, right? Because you're actually learning some really important stuff here. So it should be a little bit hard, it shouldn't be easy, um, but it is a great quirl. Um, Rob, I don't know if you would like to mention maybe Faman's a little bit here and and Jace maybe just touch on the GPGs um before we move on to step three.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Tarianne. Um looking in that space and knowing the value of that course, it was something that I think everybody in New Zealand was aware of that uh it was either an IP course or a UK-based course from the P modules and a lot of UK-based legislation in that, which was not really helpful for us over the pond here in um in New Zealand. So um, what Famands have done is we've essentially worked with the BOHS to rewrite that course in its entirety, so it really reflects uh a New Zealand and Australian approach to asbestos remediation. Um, so that's that's out now. We've been running the trial, so that course will go live uh in this year for people to come and take. So we've got a relatively exclusive deal between Famans and the BOHS to deliver their training going forwards, and we're working through all the subsequent other P modules um one by one to convert them to a New Zealand and Australian flavour, let me say.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Yeah, just to talk about Famans. Uh being a client, when the surveyor turns up on site, I we have the protocol that there must be a Famans member, they must have the IP402 qualification, they must be following the new GPG, conducting asbestos surveys June 2025, which has been released by WorkSafe. But also they've submitted a risk assessment to let me know exactly what they're going to be surveying on site. Like Helen touched on earlier, uh, you don't want any any caveats, you don't want them putting in their JC that they're not surveying above two metres, especially if you're working within the ceiling void, then uh an asbestos refurb demolition survey, if they're not going above two metres, is not fit for purpose. So you've got to work out uh the scope of the survey with the surveyor prior to the asbestos refurb demolition survey, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Well, that leads us pretty well into step three, um the asbestos removal scope of work, or as we call it, Arsenal document. Now, it it it it was pretty brilliant in in the acronym space, and it's one that I think everybody who uses this document will remember. Uh, but that being said, um the document is actually one of the most important documents in the entire asbestos management process. It's prepared by the asbestos consultant using information gathered from the refurbishment and demolition survey, and it's issued to the licensed asbestos removal companies so that they can actually price and plan the removal works. That then obviously supports the project managers in their work so that they get even quotes when they go out to multiple people. A big problem we've seen since the uh inception of this document or prior to the inception was people classifying the asbestos differently from their approach and not really getting consistent messaging back. So this is a real leveller in that space to give that. But also, you know, a really a good arse contains, I'll keep saying that because this is the only opportunity I get to say that. Uh, a good arse contains critical information such as the class of asbestos removal, be it A class or B class, as suggested there. Uh plans showing where the asbestos containing materials are located, and that's a a big part for me because anybody going to site really needs to understand exactly where that locality is, how to get to that locate and get from it. And it's not always clear, but with this document, it really pulls that out. Again, a clear scope definition in there as to what's included, which really helps avoid costly variations. No one wants to see a situation where a project is being priced for for one particular area, then it bleeds out into other areas, doubling the scope and cost of that work. Um clients' health and safety procedures, you know, as you're saying, Helen, they're working on schools. You've got different clients that have different needs, and that can really talk to that. Also, the site protocols and permits requirements. If there's different types of work, there could be hot works, could be different types of works associated with working at high, etc., as well. So, really, when done properly, it provides clarity, it reduces risk, ensures everybody understands exactly what needs to happen on site, really clarifies price. I suppose is a good one there for me. But Helen, from a project manager's perspective, what in your view of the RSA document, how important is it to you in helping you manage projects effectively?

SPEAKER_06 20:44

So the asbestos removal scrap of works is the absolute integral most important document that I can have, which binds me to the removal company to the licensed asbestos assessor, the independent licensed asbestos assessor, and to ensure that the job is completed as per my expectations. So it's survival.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So just a question on that, Helen, from that basis. When you have that document, do you feel more empowered to challenge any quotes or anything you're getting back or methodologies of work that you may have been submitted by removalists?

SPEAKER_06 21:30

Yeah, so like you said, you do when you when you ask for quotes and if you supply a scope of works document, then pretty much your quotes should all be very similar in pricing. Um the scope of works documents that I have do not dictate how they must do their working at heights. That is actually a removal company that tells me how they will do their remote their working at heights and what their health and safety protocols are. I do find that I think. Challenge people on whether or not they've read the asbestos removal scope of works. I have standard clauses at the beginning of every single scope of works, which is standard across every single job of mine. It is at least five key points there that are on the first few pages, which basically state as a minimum you must be doing X, Y, and Z. I'm not going to give away my secrets. But yeah, it's it's holding them accountable. The person who quotes the job doesn't necessarily the person who does the removal, but the person doing the removal should have read that asbestos removal stuff the worst. And I hate to say it, but I do work with companies where they have may not have read it. So when I turn up on site, I can just say to them, Where is it? You need to be reading it, you need to be following it. Um and also the same goes for the licensed asbestos assessor. You know, I turned up on sites where the assessor has given a clearance, um, and I've said, no way, there is no way that is clear. Uh, that is not what is written in my script of works. I still need you to do X, Y, and Z in order for that job to be finished. So yeah, like I said, it's my Bible, it's my go-to. I don't know if being a woman in this industry makes any difference, but having that that paperwork behind me, I just feel it speaks volumes. So I generally don't get any pushback or any arguments if I can state to them, this is what you have signed up for, this is what you have agreed to, this is what you will actually deliver.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

So on to step four, the asbestos removal control plan. So the ARCP is a document that incorporates the ASO and the ARDS, the refurb demolition survey, to produce a practical and safe working method for LERs, licensed suspected removalists to follow on site. Now, the ARCPs are only completed by the licensed aspects removalist. So the inspector's removal works have been priced with the R SO. The licensed suspects removalist has been appointed. So the ARCP will include a notification to the regulator. In New Zealand and Australia, this is WorkSafe. In UK, this is the HSE. So the notify the works. And the RCP will also include all the details of the asbestos removal project, including site plans, uh, what ACM, asbestos containing material or ACD, asbestos containing dust, have been removed, and all the control measures that will be implemented during the asbestos removal works. So I know there's quite a few clients across New Zealand that do uh review these ARCPs and give acceptance before the licensed asbestos removalist starts on site. So, Helen, what is your opinion on the ARCP as a project manager? And how do you know that the ARCP is fit for purpose?

SPEAKER_06 25:12

Yes. Asbestos removal control plan um ties directly into with, like you said, the asbestos removal scope of works. So I expect to see in all my asbestos removal control plans direct um connection back to the RSO, whether it's a SNP of a picture of the plans which states this is where your DCU must be, this is the area having the asbestos removed. It needs to have wording in there, which basically says that the removal will happen in conjunction with the ARSOW, or you know, the the the two documents go hand in hand. You know, they are holding hands together. Um, one does not happen without the other. Uh, asbestos removal control plans also stipulate the emergency uh location to the nearest hospital, um, who is in charge on the site, who your supervisor is, list all the staff members who are going to be working. Um, I also asked in conjunction with the Nasbestos Removal Control Plan for copies of all our training certificates. So you can see that the team that are working might be working in a ceiling void, are they all qualified and working at heights? Um, you know, their fit tests, all the different uh qualifications that they need to have in health and safety that goes with that. To know that the asbestos removal company is competent and capable of completing the work that you are requesting of them as to this type of works. I still think that removal companies have different strengths and weaknesses. Some of them definitely don't like doing certain certain asbestos removals, and so they tend to steer away from them, or they might overprice them, or they might just say, Well, you know, we'll price it, but we really don't want to have to go through with doing that, or we don't feel yeah. So the removal control plan is is the the left arm of the right arm being the ARSOW. Lucky for me, after I've after I have reviewed all the asbestos removal control plans, they get handed on to the independent licensed asbestos assessor who also reviews them. Once they have reviewed them and requested any modifications or changes that need to be made, they then go through to the ministry's health and safety team. Every single asbestos removal project that I do goes to the Ministry of Education's Health and Safety Team who review all documents. They review the asbestos refurbishment survey, they review the ARCP, they review the ARSOW, they review the work safe notification, they check that the licensed asbestos assessors are competent and capable to complete the assessing works. We also have a notice to neighbours which needs to go in with that documentation as well. Approval from the school and the board of trustees that the works will go ahead. So basically, I have got a pile of paperwork which I have reviewed, and then the Ministry of Education, Health and Safety team then also review before any tools can be picked up.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

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SPEAKER_03 28:34

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SPEAKER_04 30:21

I think also particularly important is the licensed suspect removalist. Uh the supervisor make sure that the supervisor has read the ARCP, but also he's done a toolbox talk or is explained the project to the workers, the operatives actually working inside the enclosures. Because sometimes that does not happen.

Step 5: Asbestos Removal Works - Class A or Class B

SPEAKER_05 30:45

Okay, great. So let's move on to step five. So we've done all of the paperwork and we've checked it through thoroughly and we've we understand how important that all is, but now we're actually going to get down to the hard work. So step five is your asbestos removal works. And we're going to talk about this in terms of class A and class B asbestos removal. So let's start with class A. So if the workplace exposure standard is going to be exceeded, and that is 0.1 fibres per millilitre, then an enclosure will be set up for class A fribal asbestos removal works. Air monitoring at this stage is mandatory for a class A asbestos removal works. So the air monitoring needs to be outside of the enclosure and it must be below the 0.01 fibres per mil. If air monitoring outside of the enclosure exceeds 0.02 fibres per mil, then the result is notifiable to work safe NZ if you're in New Zealand. So that's your class A. Let's move on to class B. With class B, the removal works can actually be done with or without an enclosure. Externally, you can do one without an enclosure, but if you're inside, you'd actually want to set an enclosure up because you want to protect the surfaces inside the building or the room. So really one size doesn't fit all with the class B removal works, and each project has got its own specifics and merits. So it really needs to be risk assessed competently to make sure everything's as it should be before you start carrying out that asbestos works. All of the necessary asbestos control measures need to be put in place before you start that asbestos removal project. So for Helen, the question here is: as a project manager, we've talked about what makes a great surveyor. Now I'd love to know a little bit about what makes a great licensed asbestos removalist. What do they look like?

SPEAKER_06 32:36

And how do you know? How do I know? Well, baseline monitoring is like ringing alarm bells to me. I have had a few doozies where baseline monitoring may not have been done. That is taking um air monitoring before any work has started. So uh some areas in New Zealand have very, very high pollen counts, very high dust counts. You could have had builders on site using drop saws, creating dust. Could have someone water blasting, um, there could be someone mowing the lawns, so anything which is creating dust or organic fibers to be airborne. If we take a baseline monitor, then we know this is what the particles are in the air before any work has started, um, like you said, outside the enclosure. But it is so important. I have had jobs shut down because they exceeded the um particles. Well, what do you know? They didn't do any baseline monitoring beforehand. So um that's you know a big kind of I'm really sorry, work safe. We're sorry to have to bring you up to notify you this uh whoops. Um so I have had that and it and it's not a great position to be in. Um calibration of equipment is also very key. Uh, I am not a a qualified uh fiber counter. I'm not a qualified, well I don't I'm not a qualified licensed assistance assessor, um, but they need to calibrate their equipment before they start work. Um, I don't know how often it would be. I would expect it would be every time you turn up on the job. Um make sure that your equipment that you're what that you're monitoring and that you're counting with is is set back to a baseline, which is like your baseline monitoring. Where where is our starting point in this job? Now, but once we've got our starting point, then you can build your enclosure, then you can start doing your work, then we can see what the differential is and the differences are, and then we can actually determine. Um, a licensed assessor, I would expect them to have read my asbestos removal scope of works. What work are we actually doing? Don't just turn up on site and have not been briefed of what the job is. Do not ask the removal company what the job is. You have been supplied the asbestos removal scope of works, you have been allocated time to read it, you have been invited to online meetings to meet with the all of the parties who are present as part of this project, to principals, everyone. So yeah, don't just think that you're going to rock up as Johnny on the spot and and start work not knowing anything. Uh, you need to know what it is that you're signing up for. Are you are you turning up to a class A removal? Are you turning up to a class B? Is it in the ceiling? Is it under the floor? Does everyone have the right classroom or the right room that's having a decon done on it? You know, extra sets of eyes are are really important and you're being paid, I think, a lot of money for your skills and your services. So be professional and make sure you do your job properly. For us, you probably won't be doing more work for us. So removalists, I mean, enclosures, just because WorkSafe or or the ACOP states that it an enclosure is only for class A, um as far as I'm concerned, the PCBU can dictate what standards they would like to have used on their premises. If you have already built an enclosure and you just haven't smoke tested it, and then you find something when you are pulling up the carpet, when you are taking down a wall, it's not too difficult to go from an enclosure which is built as a class B integrity to a class A if what you're doing is adding an NPU and doing a smoke test. To me, I have my own standards, um, which I accept, and also working with the Ministry of Education, they have their own standards. We're talking about doing work inside classrooms which have children in there. They have vortex on the walls, which has like carpet, which absorbs all your fibres and your dust. It's best that it's it's best practice that they are covered in poly and that you build an enclosure. So, you know, although it's not mandatory, working in schools, we have sets of rules and guidelines that we have to follow.

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Yeah, look, they're all really great points. And what I love about this is that although obviously the asbestos industry is incredibly technical, as we're demonstrating by this conversation, but those really key things about baseline monitoring, calibration, all of those things are just so essential in so many practices, you know, even from fundamental science, it's so important to understand what your baseline is and to make sure that your gets calibrated. So, you know, it's one of those things where a bit of this feels to me like common sense, but it's just about making sure that people actually do it and how important that is. So thank you for that, Helen. Great. So, in terms of asbestos removal, are there any other comments from the team, Jace or Bob? Have you got anything you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_04 37:40

I think an important point for me is the licensed asbestos removalist should be independent or impartial to the licensed asbestos assessor, so there's no conflict of interest. In the asbestos industry in New Zealand, it's it's a small industry, and a lot of people know each other, uh, especially in out-of-city areas. So sometimes that that can prove difficult, uh, but you should always have that independence where possible. What about yourself, Rob?

Step 6: Four-Stage Clearance

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah, I mean it's a typical issue that we've been dealing with for a while because we are such a small market and we know that it's uh um the industry itself and the people within it, you know, that we haven't got vast swathes of people in this industry, and we've got a large uh country to cover on the basis of that. We do often find challenges around independence in various areas, and sometimes assessors will have to travel from out of area because the local assessors are and or are part of a removal company, or they've got obviously um family members and other things of that nature, because it's not just the actual conflict, is it's also a perceived conflict in how that works as well. So having that clear demarcation between those people being engaged, I think it is essential for a project manager to do. So often if they're engaged independently of each other and not as in some cases where the removalist is physically engaging that third party, it's the best way to move it. It gives two parts the project manager control, you're gonna get a completion, and the clear which you get should hopefully be to a higher standard because again, you've got that independence there, and they're gonna make sure that all that specimens has been removed as as well as part of that. But I suppose, in addition to that, just picking up on the controls that you've mentioned, Helen, around a B class. I I know with the ministry that there's a focus on doing background air monitoring as well for two parts. One is reassurance for the school because you're in a live environment, but also again, it's another method of catching anything that may or may not have transpired during that work as well. So I thought it was important to add that in as well as a B class. Right. So what we do now is we're moving to step six, uh, which is a four-stage clearance and certification. This is the fun bit. Um, obviously, as an assessor myself, I lived in this space for many years. Um, but as we do, you know, move in from step six to the four-stage clearance certificate process, but this is carried out by an independent licensed asbestos assessor or a competent asbestos professional. So, just for clarification on that, obviously the class A removal works again, independent licensed uh asbestos assessor. Competent persons can actually do uh B class clearances, but I know that some clients also want that to be done by uh an independent licensed assessor, and they can recommend that. That's another point that you raised earlier on, Helen, and I think it's a valid one for that. But the process really is completed at the end of an asbestos removal project before the area is reoccupied. So just want to be real clear here. There's generally four stages to this as it as we work through. So stage one is job completeness. Has all the asbestos been removed? Is the question. Has all the waste been removed? Next question Is the site clean and is the enclosure still intact? Obviously, that varies between a class A removal and a class B, maybe outside different areas, but you would expect all those areas to be free from rubbish and and waste. Then, if that is the case, the assessor will move on to stage two, which is the visual inspection. So, again, for a class A, that may be accessing the enclosure. For a class B, that may be the enclosure is outside, it may not have any walls. But essentially the same rules apply. So the visual inspection, the assessor will really check that the enclosure in the work area is completely free from asbestos containing materials and asbestos containing dust. This stage is critical. And as an assessor, we give much more weight to this than most other stages because this is our real chance to look really closely at the area and make sure all material has been removed. If you move past stage two, which hopefully we have, we're then moving to the air monitoring stage, generally for a class A, because uh you're going to be doing um air monitoring at that particular stage. Now, what that will be generally is setting up in the enclosure, um, and then you'll be looking for really your results to be typically less than 0.01 fibres per millilitre of air to achieve a clearance in that space. There will be some time delay for that because often uh the analysis is being done in a laboratory away from site, so that would then you'd seal up the enclosure and you'd send that out to get your results back. That then moves us into stage four that may happen the second day or a day after once that clearance has been achieved, and essentially it would be the dismantling process. Now, this is critical for the assessor to be in attendance with this. Just by the nature of the way that the enclosures are constructed, there may be flaps and overlaps in your enclosure walls and areas where material may have found its way into minor amounts. So the assessor will attend that. The enclosure or work area will be dismantled under supervision, and the site must be left in a clean and safe condition with really good housekeeping standards applied. So what we'd want to be seeing is that that plastic and that enclosure is being taken away safely. If there's any other areas of concern, additional cleaning will happen during that process. So when you leave the site, it's cleaner technically than it was when you arrived at that particular site. The clearance certificate, which will then follow that, confirms that the asbestos specified within the scope of works has been removed so far as reasonably practicable. And we'll touch on that a little bit more later. It may also include caveats where material remain in place because it wasn't able to be accessed or removed as part of that work. Once issued, the certificate allows contractors to re-enter and continue with the wider project, did that say, to say the area in which the removal was done is safe to reoccupy. So, Helen, what is your understanding of the four-stage process and how does it support project delivery from your perspective?

SPEAKER_06 45:08

Thank you, Rob. I think that you that you summed that up beautifully. Very thorough, very in-depth. Like you said, it's all done in stages. I expect updates from my removal companies and my assessors as to what stages we're at, when we're expecting to have stage threes, when we're expecting to have stage fours. It's good to have timelines, it's good to understand any issues that are coming up along the way. Obviously, we have contractors chomping at the bit, waiting for those clearance certificates, waiting for the reoccupation to be able to go in and continue the work. And it's not good to have tradees waiting around, they will go off and do work elsewhere. They may not be available to come back and continue with the job. So it's critical that you keep a very good communication going with the removal company and with the assessor and see how you're tracking, what issues you're likely to have. Like you said, caveats, you know, there's areas they couldn't get to. Um they may have had to use an encapsulation in certain areas, they may have had to um explain to you that certain things were inaccessible, wedged between wood, um under under fixed furnishings. Um, so we yeah, these are all things that we have to work with. We have to be flexible, we have to um understand that we've got to be agile. You can't say that an asbestos removal is gonna take you three days from start to finish, because once you actually get stuck into it, things can change. Um, no matter how many hours a day the team are working, you might pull something out and find something else. Um so you can you can do your best, and like you said, it's best practice. Um and yeah, I'm I will answer the phone at any time of day or night from the removal companies or the assessors and just talk to them and help them work through any issues. Sometimes they just have a very quick question that they might want to ask you in order to help get through those stages. So, yeah, it's about being available, having a communication, this is a team effort, and we all want to ultimately get to stage four as as originally planned, um, so that then the the lineup of trades can continue their work.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

So, on that basis, just picking up there, um, as a project manager, um I suppose for the wider audience as well, everybody's going to come across difficulties as part of this process. Have you got any examples where a licensed asbestos removalist, and I know I have uh personally, is calling for a stage four clearance far too early and they're not quite complete their work?

SPEAKER_06 47:55

Yeah, absolutely. I do have some of those. Um, I believe some of those supervisors are no longer employed by the companies that I use. Um, and I think that the licensed asbestos assessors know and they they see patterns in certain supervisors, and so they can preempt it. So when they get called and said, you know, we think we're gonna go for our um stage tomorrow, then you know that it's best for the licensed aspector to to talk them through it and say, This is what I'm expecting, this is what I'm gonna go in and do. Go in early and show them and say, I need you to do X, Y, and Z if you are asking me to come and do it, parents. So, like I said, it's a team effort. Uh, we all have to work together communicate, communicate, communicate with each other.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Yeah, I mean a big part of that as well is you know, from a project management perspective, is being able to, you know, experience those fights and arguments, I'll say, between the two parties. Obviously, as a a removalist feels that they've done enough or an assessor feels that they need to do a little bit more. Uh have you got any examples where you've had to sort of get involved with that and try and de-escalate that conflict?

SPEAKER_06 49:16

I do. I do. And as a project manager, I'm working on behalf of my client. So often it can be the client who makes the end decision and it's the client who can install those caveats and and have a have a party line where you've got each member of the party on the call and you say, This is what information we're going to need. I need this from you. What are you happy with? What are your comfort levels? How are we going to move forwards? At what point do we determine this to be clear? And at what point is the licensed asbestos assessor comfortable to put their name on a certificate? So, you know, they their name is on it, it's their livelihood, it's their it's their job, it's them that WorkSafe is regulating, not necessarily the client. So the client needs to understand that and allow them to add their caveats if they're saying, I will not sign this job off as clean because of XYZ. To be honest, I haven't had very many of them. And when I have had them, I just put all the cards on the table and make sure that all parties are there and that we talk about it like grown-ups.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

So with air monitoring, what if the visual inspection or air monitoring fails? What then?

SPEAKER_04 50:31

Yeah, in in my experience, there could be a reason for that. The visual inspection, there's there's still dust and debris in there. Then there is the potential that the the air monitoring, once you've done the surface testing, could exceed 0.01. So that's where the licence suspect is from this have got to go back in and they've got to re-clean the area. So basically, the four-stage clearance would fail, the licence suspectation removalists would go back in to re-clean the area and then submit the area back for another four-stage clearance. So the failed four-stage clearance paperwork and the past, when it does eventually pass, should be provided to the client afterwards. So, not forgetting that the four-stage clearance paperwork is a legal document.

Step 7: Update Asbestos Register / Asbestos Management Plan upon works completion

SPEAKER_01 51:22

I think a good point on that visual inspection, and just something from my personal uh perspective, is that you know, an assessor taking in a torch to the environment, even though it feels that you know it's sort of there's enough light or you know, it's just sort of a little bit grey or whatever in there is um a really good tool to use, and and all assessors should be using them because often I've shone the light in there with the removalist, and you can clearly identify stuff that you couldn't visually see without the advent of that torch. So I I think where you get those situations, again it comes back to to training and making sure that they're doing that, and that can probably go back to your point, Helen, around doing an initial look in the enclosure just to make sure before they finish the work they're covering all of that. And if this testor then takes in the torch at that particular stage and lets the removalist know that actually this is how the inspection's gonna go, and these are things we're gonna be looking at, it can give a good opportunity for them to get that clean before the final inspection, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 52:33

So on to step seven. So we're going through all the steps of one to six. Your asbestos and rubble works were successful. Now you update the asbestos management plan. So your asbestos register will be updated to show that the ATM asbestos contained material or the ACD asbestos containing dust has been removed so far as reasonably practicable. So your asbestos register forms part of your asbestos management plan. So we ensure that the clearance documentation is available to the client and the contractors on site. Also, any asbestos containing material that's been left in situ that can't be removed, uh was maybe encapsulated or sealed must be recorded and your asbestos register or asbestos management plan. So so far as reasonably practicable Rob, what's your take on so far as reasonably practical practicable? Can't you say it?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Well, um it really gives an opportunity you know for flexibility, and that's what it was designed for. However, it can be misinterpreted massively, and that's a big problem for us. Um so obviously, uh as an as an assessor myself, I I did find myself with removalists saying to me often, hey, that's as much as we can do, and that's as far as reasonably practicable. Being fair and reasonable at that particular stage is is also critical, but also not accepting things that are fall below that set standard. So when we talk about as far as reasonably practicable, you know, just for example, you'll you'll hear people say, Oh, I've tried to get rid of that particular material, that dust, and you would look up there and see that there's still cobwebs on the timber that have never been vacuumed for the first time. So just a common example that we deal with, and you go, Well, if I can reach it, if I can touch it and I can do it, uh, often what I would do is work with them and show them physically what I would accept. So they would then go back and do that. Often, well, I have to say, you can get most areas clean, um, a lot more than was originally um sort of pushed over sometimes. So I think it's an area of risk for the both the client for the assessor involved to make sure that you are doing that. But again, on the other end of the spectrum, as far as reasonably practicable, some people could take that to the absolute end and ask for stuff to be done that is virtually impossible in those situations. I do think that good communication with your removalist and your assessor, and also um your client, because without your client's input, you know, we should be having that conversation to say, look, hey, technically everything could be removed, but the cost base to remove it is exponentially high. Um, to do that, it would require deconstruction of the building and areas that you may may or not be working in. So it's really trying to get a balance on it. So, as far as reasonably practical for me is is essentially that as part of that how how we apply it needs to be done reasonably.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Fantastic answer. So, Helen, you're provided with the four-stage clearance paperwork, which you provide to the client. So, from finishing the specific removal works to submitting that certification to the client, what sort of timescales are you looking at?

SPEAKER_06 56:11

Do you get the certification straight away or no, sadly, so um because I have got tradies lining up at the door waiting to get in, um, as soon as the fourth stage clearance is verbally approved, I ask for it to be put in writing um via email so that I have it from the assessor who was signing the job off. Uh the paperwork generally can take sometimes a couple of days. So depending on whether it's waiting on some lab results, uh waiting for the quality checking person to check that the documents are all fit to be sent out. In fair call, to be honest, receiving a document that requ that has not been QA'd and that requires you know typos and has error corrections that need to be done in it, I would rather have the proper document received once, especially if I'm then on forwarding that to the client, the school, the principal, the board of trustees, um, the contractors who are all waiting to go in. So for me, I receive the four-stage clearance verbally. I ask for it in writing. Once I have it in writing, then I allow the contractors in, and then yeah, I have this grace period, but I am I'm chomping it the bit and I'm asking, I need the paperwork, I need the paperwork, I need the paperwork. I obviously also need the tick dockets as well as the paperwork. Because it's not just a matter of getting that piece of paper saying that it's all clear, it's a matter of reading it as well, checking it. Did they do the right rooms? Is it all properly done? Um, do all the dates and times all match up? There's there's quite a bit to check with the clearance document, to be honest. Um, and so I will QA that as well once I've received it before I send it out. Uh and sometimes I do have to send it back to them asking for things to be updated. Uh sometimes they might finish in the middle of the night on jobs. Mistakes can happen in paperwork if they're rushing things and if they're not taking their time to make sure that it's done properly.

Check Before You Chop

SPEAKER_04 58:12

So thank you. So those were the seven steps, the seven steps of success. Uh, just going back to the earlier steps, uh, step two, very important is your asbestos refurbishment and demolition survey. Terry Ann, uh before people start knocking walls down, whether whether the contractors working within commercial buildings or doing any DIY at home, they've got to make sure that they get it checked so they're not exposed to asbestos.

SPEAKER_05 58:46

Yeah, look, it's so important. And unfortunately, we we houses are expensive, right? Renovations are expensive, and so it's very easy to think, well, I can do it myself. But actually, you know, you wouldn't necessarily cut your own hair, you go to a hairdresser, you go to an expert. That might be not be the best example in the world. But we're talking about an incredible substance that there is no safe level to. There is no safe level, and so really what you want to do is get a professional in, or some professionals that really know this stuff, really know how to manage it safely. And I'm just about to have my own men knows done at the moment, and the first thing I did was okay, right, I need a refurbishment refurbishment survey done. I have the survey done, I know the aspestals provided on my house, I know where it is, and and it will be removed um just before I actually start my refurbs. And you know, it's it's too important not to, it's in too much of our stock not to. And speaking from an MSAA trust perspective, you know, we continue to see people join our um our member register because they've been exposed by pulling down ceilings, lifting up lineos. And the thing is, once you've done it, it's too late, and that's why that initial survey and then having those experts who know they know where to look, they've done courses like the IP402 and they understand the myriad of different places that you might find asbestos in the building in the way that you know that a standard person might not know. I mean, you can't identify it with the naked eye as it is, and that makes it really tricky. So we like to say, check before you chop. I reckon if that could be something that goes out when people are watching DIY shows, then um, we'd be doing a real lot of good to public health in New Zealand. So check before you chop. It might seem like you've got to spend money to do this, but you know it's money well spent. And I don't say this from a removalist or an assessor perspective, or I don't gain from this financially. I say this from the perspective that I see people come to MSAA who have asbestos-related disease, and there's nothing I can do, whereas they are preventable.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

Yes, well, the ASK podcast team is impartial, but also independent. We're not tied to any licensed suspensive assessors or licensed suspicious removal lists. So, yeah, the message is check before you chop.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

Yeah, I think something else I want to raise on that as well, and this is a common failing of um project managers in in my um experience, and that is that they go out and do a great job identifying the material, removing some of that material prior to commencement of work. But often with projects, and this we find a lot in the building industries, project scope expands during the work. So often you find you've gone through that process, you've done the removal, and then you move on to the work. And the work then expands into other areas. Good example for you. If you're doing sort of refurbishment of a particular building and you take away some wall line energy, you find some decayed timber behind it. And to remediate that decay timber, it may then expand into another area of the building that hasn't been part of the original scope. And a lot of the failures I see is not because we didn't do the survey beforehand, it's subsequently that we didn't resurvey during the project further as the scope expanded. So, on that basis, Helen, how how do you deal with that? And I know you've got a pretty switched way of doing it, but how do you deal with that you know, ever-growing scope um proposition?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:24

The Asbestos Still Kills podcast could not be possible without another one of our sponsors, the Environmental Innovation Centre, EIC, are frontrunners in uniting innovation, research, and environmental solutions. EIC is an impartial, independent and science-based consultancy who will provide robust, reliable, and independent evidence to sustainability, science-based solutions and ongoing environmental problems, a single consistent point to communicate complex science and technically use complexly stated. We have a team to help you achieve and validate them. For more information, go to www.environmental innovation.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:26

I could pull a joke right now and say that I know where all the asbestos surveyors are that I work with at any moment in time, and I can just pull them out of my hat and ask them to swing past and stop in and take more samples, which to be honest, um is what I do. So yeah, you're right. I have people who rip up carpet and then they look at it and they stop work and they say, We're not touching this, we want some samples taken, um, which I see as a massive positive for the industry that people are now questioning it. Um, they may already have the survey, but they still see a product which they're concerned with. Um, so I do. I I just somehow happen to have plenty of contacts where I can get someone there within an hour. Uh if it can be remote, I just give them permission, down tools, walk out the door, close the door, I will get someone there to come in and take more samples and to reassess things because peace of mind is priceless. You know, we do not want to be joining Terri Ann's Register, um, and we do not want to be exposing people and getting them on Terri Ann's register. I fully respect all of my tradies that ring me up with that panic moment. Um, yeah, and like I said, I've got great teams that I work with and they are available. Emergencies, they never say no, they always make sure that they have got someone in the area who is competent and capable who can take samples. Um, I had had one just recently. The contractor pulled up all the carpet, was very concerned it was a very similar product to what was in a room next door, which tested positive for asbestos. The surveyor came along, uh, suited up, went in, took all their samples, was convinced that it was asbestos, and every single sample that came back, it was eight samples taken, was negative. So sometimes you cannot see it until it's under a microscope, until it is actually tested. So, yeah, I respect anyone who wants to ring me day or night um with their concerns and I will back them. The proof is in the lab results.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:33

So you may find that uh with the project over time, it could have been specified a long time ago. There could be a survey that was done, it's slightly outside of the area. They may have some lab results that don't actually include all of the area, but the layperson picks that up and says, Look, there's no asbestos here, everybody's good to go. I think the level of checking at that stage is something that I question on some of the longer projects because often they're The situations where it all goes upside down, essentially, because people crack into it, they rip it up, and they're not as conscientious as if you said there, Helen. They don't ring up and say, I'm a bit worried about. Um, but if they do sometimes, it's already too late, they've smashed through a wall and they've disturbed the whole area. So that's a common issue we have. So, as you say, uh Terri Ann initially, you've got to stop if you're concerned, and then you've got to retest. And if your survey scope andor current survey document doesn't cover the entire area in which you're working, and it's not to the appropriate level, as we said earlier on, a management survey, which sometimes happens, that uh you need to stop and make sure that we get the appropriate surveying done and extend that survey as much as we need to to get the answers we need to prior to commencement of work. I think that's a big challenge out there and one that we face daily.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

I think another important aspect as well is the trade is uh the contractors, uh having asbestos awareness training so they know exactly what asbestos looks like. So to know what it looks like, then they can say, hold on a minute, stop, see my supervisor, and we'll get it checked so no so nobody's exposed.

How To Keep Projects Running Smoothly

SPEAKER_05 1:07:18

I also think it normalises it a little bit, you know. I think if people can actually learn that it's okay to say, no, stop, I'm not sure about this. Because there's lots of young boys and girls out there who work in the trades who maybe are asked by their their manager, oh, you know, can you go in and disturb that? Or and and you know, they're they're actually not confident, and that's completely understandable to be able to say no, I I don't think I want to do that. And I think the more people that are able to do that, and the more we encourage that, then the better safety net we've got, things like asbestos exposure. So, Ellen, it's been really fantastic talking to you. Um, I've got one really last question to put to you, and that is that with such a complex setup with so many people, so many moving parts, personalities, changing things, um, finding asbestos in places you're not expecting, um, and having to change scope, it's super complicated, and we know that. So, how do you ensure that asbestos management and asbestos removal works in your projects run smoothly? I can see some of it has to be good planning, but what else do you have?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:24

So, I absolutely take my hat off to that IP405 course. Um, of all the courses that I have done in my life, um, with all my trainings uh for every facet of my life, the IP405 was 100% of what I do on a daily basis. So, step by step by step, I I walked away from that and I was like, wow, I can't I cannot believe that this it was like it was written for my job description. Um so having that behind me is absolutely amazing. And I I think that every project manager in New Zealand needs to do the IP405 if you are project management anything to do with construction or buildings, um, or renovating your own house. What was the rest of your question? Oh, good planning, what else is it? Um, oh I don't know, my phone's always on. Um, yeah. I have a great team, I have great teams behind me, I have a lot of people who I can go to and ask for help, ask for clarity. I have had tours of labs, I've been to the TEM lab um in Australia, I've spent hours talking to people about every different type of asbestos, going to Faman's conferences, just throwing myself at it uh 200%. You know, like I said, I haven't been in it for in the industry for very long, but I find it fascinating. I'm like a sponge, I'm just soaking up all the information. I listen to people who have got many, many, many years worth of experience. Um, I can ask them questions, I feel that there's no question too big or too small. Um, and I feel that I can pick up the phone and and phone people and ask them. And I sometimes do that with different removal companies. I'll phone them up and I'll say, How on earth would you do um AIB removal in an electrical closet? For example, you know, you've got smoke tests, you've got all these different complexities. And to me, as a project manager, I have to know every single step of the way to know what everyone is doing. Um, and I have to get my head around it. I can't just pass a scope of works over my desk without reading it. I need to know where is the asbestos, who is removing it, how are they going to remove it, how are we going to get clearance, you know, every little facet of what happens, my brain has to actually comprehend.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:48

It sounds to me like you're incredibly thorough and committed. You'd be a fabulous researcher. I might steal you. Come on at least with your knee. No, you're you're too good for the industry, we'll leave you where you are. Um, look, it it's great to hear your personal viewpoint on this, and thank you so much for sharing those thoughts with us. Um, I love also the fact that you talk about the fact that you've got a good team. So there's also an element of trust there that's really important to what you do, um, and that's a great thing to take on board. Now I'm going to pass over to Rob and Jason to just see if they have anything else to add on this fascinating topic. So start with you, Rob.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:21

Again, working working in the space myself and seeing the variety of service delivery that's actually applied across the market and and seeing what is delivered by by good project managers. I I can honestly say that you know they're contributing to you know preventing people becoming exposed to asbestos. It helps with project costs, uh timelines, and everything. So obviously at the front end, some people might find it, you know, it's it's a little bit restrictive and so forth as they get into it. But once they realise the dangers associated with it and how much better it is when it's done the right way, uh anybody involved is just in awe with good project management. I mean, you're looking at a material and you're dealing with directly um in schools, and that's our next generation coming up. So I think it's probably one of the more critical areas you could ever do that work in. But it also serves to show removalists and assessors what good looks like. I think that's uh a training ground for new assessors and for removalists to know that you know this is what a real job looks like, and this is what a good client is to work with. So I I thank you for all the work that you do, Helen, and uh I just hope that we can keep expanding and developing the workforce across New Zealand because if we do that, we give uh development opportunities for them, but we also do the work safely, and that's really where we want to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:58

So, project management it's not an easy job, and there are a lot of asbestos uh projects going on, or building projects going across New Zealand, and there's quite a few project managers that do not have the the knowledge, the IP four oh five knowledge, or asbestos knowledge of of their their legal requirements. So they should be asking the questions what what do I need to do? What do I need to check during my during my projects? Uh it's also very important that the contractors working on the projects have asbestos awareness trained as well. And just in my personal opinion, I think asbestos consultants should be doing asbestos refurb demolition surveys. It shouldn't be the removalists. I know there are licensed asbestos removalists in New Zealand that do do surveys. Uh, I think it could be a potential to create your own work. Uh so I think it it should be should be impartial and it should be the asbestos consultant. But yeah, ask the question, if unsure, get it checked.

Final Thanks And Goodbye

SPEAKER_05 1:14:07

So thanks so much again, Helen, for sharing your time and your knowledge with us today. It's been so, so interesting, and I just love the passion with which you speak. I just think it adds so much to the dialogue. Um, thank you for all the time and energy you put in to keeping our children, um, teachers, and other people safe when you're carrying out these works for us. Um, a big thank you to our audience for listening in. If you can give us a big like, that's really good. Um, if you can subscribe, that would help us too. Um, as we work with special guests from all around the world. And thanks again to our lovely team, Rob McAllister, Jason Milner, myself, Terry Ann Berry. We'll be back again in about two weeks' time with our new podcast and another exciting guest for you. Now, in the meantime, we're all looking out for new guests and stories about asbestos but any other environmental issue. Um, we're keen to hear from you. So please do contact the asbestos still kills podcast team, and you can do that at asbestos still kills. That's all one word at gmail.com. We can't wait to hear from you and see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:08

Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

The asbestos still kills podcast. All rights reserved. Thank you for listening to the asbestos still kills podcast. Presented by Robert McAllister, my man's director, Dr Terry Ann Berry, the Environmental Innovation Centre, EIC, Jason Loma, Asbestos Management Consultants Limited, EMT.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:50

For more information on the Asbestos Stillkills podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com For more information also to read and accept the podcast disclaimer before viewing or listening to this podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com or contact us by email at asbestosstillkills at gmail.com For more information on the Messiatelioma support and asbestos awareness trust please go to www.msaatrust.org.nz Thank you.