Episode 6: 'Asbestos - a world system approach' with Martin Ditkof

Marty (Martin Ditkof) is known across the world for his website 'Theasbestosblog.com'.

Marty and the ASK Team talk about asbestos knowledge from across the globe and delve into articles from Marty's blog. Asbestos on the Space Shuttle and the Bangladesh ship trade are just a few of his subjects.

His discussion of World-Systems, as well as most of his focus, is meant to include both the Global North and Global South, bringing long-term structure, discussion, and illumination to the appropriate histories and historical facts. He is very much committed to helping all who contact him looking for histories. This is not to be missed!

Presenters:

Robert McAllister - FAMANZ Director

Dr. Terri-Ann Berry - Environmental Innovation Centre (EIC); Associate Professor, AUT, School of Future Environments

Jason Milner - Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd (AMC)

Website: www.asbestosstillkills.com

Email: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com

The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is Sponsored by:

Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd - Expertise you can trust

https://asbestosmanagementconsultants.co.nz/

The Environmental Innovation Centre

https://www.environmental-innovation.nz/

For information on asbestos-related diseases or to contact the Mesothelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust please go to:

https://www.msaatrust.org.nz/

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Don't forget to subscribe for future podcasts.

More Information is available at www.asbestostillkills.com

Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com 

Transcript

Introduction / preview

Speaker 3 0:16

He said that it was the asbestos substitute failed on the challenger. And I worked with four NASA scientists who were involved in the putty issue and the changeover. And about ten years later, there's asbestos all over the place. There was a fire. 600,000 tons of asbestos over six-year time frame right next to the water.

Speaker 1 0:45

Terri, there's asbestos all around the school playing fields here, and we don't know what to do. Can you help?

Speaker 3 0:51

The asbestos is coming from toys made in China where they have a two percent rule. And the harm is that the asbestos you see isn't the dangerous asbestos. It's the asbestos that you can't see. 30-year delay, that means there's six million walking dead people today that just don't know it. How can we do better?

Speaker 7 1:17

Hopefully we do better and maybe save some lives. For listening to the asbestos still kills podcast, please see the disclaimer on the website www.asbestosstillkills.com. Thank you.

Meet The Hosts And Marty Ditkof

Speaker 7 1:54

Welcome to the asbestos still kills podcast. I'm Jason Milner. I'm Terri Ann berry. And I'm Robert McAllister. In this podcast, we'll be discussing how a worlds system approach could support a reduction in asbestos-related disease. Promoting better asbestos awareness worldwide. As our special guest today, we are delighted to welcome Martin Ditkof.

Speaker 4 2:22

Welcome to the team, Martin. Nice to be here.

Speaker 5 2:27

Martin, or Marty, as some may know him, started out in business and law before moving into history. He completed his master's in 2024 and is now working towards his PhD at the University of Colorado in Boulder. He's also the creator and author of a well-regarded asbestos blog, and today we're keen to explore what led him to start it and what he is hoping he can achieve.

Speaker 1 2:58

So we're delighted today because what Marty's going to be doing is sharing with us some of the really fascinating case studies on asbestos exposure throughout the world. So if you'd really like to know a bit more about the impacts of the Challenger disaster, and that's sort of beyond the failed expedition, or maybe the situation with the exposure in Bangladesh, then you're in the right place. Stay tuned and enjoy.

A Personal Loss Becomes A Mission

Speaker 1 3:22

So first of all, Marty, tell us a little bit about yourselves, about your journey with asbestos and any personal connections you might have to asbestos-related diseases.

Speaker 3 3:32

Yeah, my first involvement with asbestos is uh my dad having died of asbestos cancer in uh 1981 while I was in law school. And I didn't know it was asbestos cancer, I just knew that he died of a cancer disease. And then about two years later, I'm just watching TV. A PBS station comes on, they start talking about mining asbestos, and they talked about how Steve um how some other famous people have like have uh died of asbestos-related mesothelioma. And I knew that my dad died of the same disease that they did, so I went and pulled the death certificate, and sure enough, it said mesothelioma. And I then took it to a friend who took it to a friend, I was practicing a lot at the time. And we hired a firm out of Detroit and the case for my mom, and the case settled for a couple years later. Um, and that was it until I started working in um corporate in the corporate legal uh side in 1987, 1988, where if you're in the corporate side of of litigation, you're gonna run across asbestos cases at some time. And and I did, and I was uh responsible for defending my client against those cases. And then in year 2002, I decided to open a home office legal practice. And at that point, a lot of what I did ended up being asbestos related one way or or the other. Um and then when after I retired in 2020-ish, uh I tried to play golf for a little bit and see the grandkids for a little bit, but I needed more of an intellectual challenge. And I thought asbestos and some of the issues that had never been answered, that I had wondered about, would be a good opportunity to take them head on. And that's what I did first at UCCS, which is the uh University of Colorado campus where we live, really within the Stromesborough. And then after I finished my master's degree, um, then moving on to the PhD, where I'm specializing um in asbestos and asbestos form minerals in the work environment.

Speaker 1 5:44

Thanks, Marty. I mean, that's an incredible and deeply personal connection that you've got to asbestos, and I can see why you would want to know more. And it's fabulous that you're doing this from a history perspective because I think it's relatively unique. Um, I'm just wondering whether Rob, Jason, why you why asbestos? Why the fascination? What brought you into it? Let's start with Rob.

Speaker 5 6:06

With asbestos, often we find ourselves coming into contact with it or it's through family, or something happened. But for me, it was really taking on a compliance-related role back in the UK. And it was really focused around gas compliance and other levels of compliance where asbestos come along with it, really. Uh, we did a lot of uh asbestos removals in boiler rooms, so I was really interested in in that. Um, and you know, from that point, really was really sort of saying, well, why is it costing so much to do this particular work? And you know, what was involved with it? And I was quite um impressed, I say, when I first saw some remediation happen, though a little scared seeing people in white suits as to what they're doing and how they're going around doing it. So I got really quite interested in that. And on the back of that, I thought, well, I don't know enough about it, so I went and got trained in the area through my previous employment. So when I went through the training, it really sort of why it stuck with me most is that uh when we talk about mesothelioma and the effects of it, uh, it sort of rung true to me because my my granddad died of a um uh a lung disease uh from smoking, actually. And seeing him pass away in that way, and it really mimics a very similar sort of condition as to this. I sort of took it on board and and the risks around that, and I was like horrified to you know what this substance does to people. So from that particular point forwards, I was really interested in moving my career into this space and really seeing what I can do better to improve for other people, you know, and prevent them becoming exposed to this particular material. So that was really the genesis of where I started in the industry, and I've just continued on uh up until today.

Speaker 1 7:57

Thanks, Rob. What about you, Jason?

Speaker 7 8:00

I fell into an asbestos, well, not actually asbestos into the industry uh by accident, really, because I've worked in uh laboratory before. And yeah, I had an interview with an asbestos company, and I was accepted and I yeah, 2004, and it just instantly interested me. And I've done a lot of training over the years, I've got all my over the years I did a lot of training, asbestos awareness training for people, and I've also done all my qualifications, but it was it was a trend where I was meeting people that were getting exposed every day uh without not knowing what asbestos look like, and over the years, as well as part of the MSAA Trust, uh, people dying of this disease uh and not even knowing they're being exposed. So I think what we're all doing here, and also Marty, uh we're all making a difference because we're trying to prevent asbestos exposure to people going forward.

Speaker 1 9:02

Yeah, thanks, Jason, and that's a really good point. And you know, I just want to point out I've known Rob and Jason for a fair while, and the one thing I know about both of them is their attention to detail is fantastic. And I think for them, this I can see why this industry appealed, and also why this industry needs you both, um, because I think that's a real they're a real asset. In terms of my journey, well, mine's not really as sexy as yours. I think I have this natural attraction to things that are very beautiful but very scary. And for me, asbestos is one of those. If you look at it down the microscope, it's stunning, but also incredibly dangerous. Um, my first real connection, though, apart from my dad telling me it was in the shed and it was terrifying, was when I was at university and I supervised a student, great student, Eucenio was his name. And he went back to the Cook Islands after he'd studied with us, and he rang me one day and said, Terri, there's asbestos all around the school, playing fields here, and we don't know what to do. Can you help? Now, back then, I actually couldn't help because even though my background's in environmental engineering and I've done some water engineering, it really wasn't my field. So I had to go and learn very, very quickly. And once I'd started, I couldn't stop myself. So then I had to go and do the asbestos training courses just because I wanted to know so much. And then, of course, it led on to the MSAA Trust Charity. And now the reason for doing it, as Jason quite rightly said, now my real reason for doing it, the driving force of all of the people that we've met, the amazing people that have a disease that was avoidable and that they didn't deserve. No, I mean, no one deserves cancer, let's be honest. But this is a particular this is particularly harsh because it is a preventable disease.

Speaker 7 10:41

So, Marty, it is clear that you're very passionate about asbestos exposure, and we'll talk later about your amazing blog, which I've been reading for years.

World Systems Approach To Asbestos

Speaker 7 10:52

But you mentioned to us that you believed that a world systems approach could be uh a method to improve awareness and outcomes for this particular carcinogen, because asbestos is a carcinogen.

Speaker 3 11:08

Can you explain what this is and how it works? Sure. Uh, world systems approach is a histotography approach to looking at things. Uh probably 10-15 years ago, a professor, Stephen Fry, uh, who's now deceased, had put together a world systems analysis dealing with asbestos and how it would be a better way to handle uh the the asbestos and stuff like that. And and he did an excellent job in sort of laying the groundwork. World systems is that you can't just look at the global north or global south or the or those types of things. You have to look at the whole thing in total. As an example, um the recent problems with sand having asbestos in, the asbestos is coming from toys made in China where they have a 2% rule, and then going to New Zealand, into uh Australia, into the UK. Um, you can't not take a world approach and get anything done because the the harm will continue in one way or the or the other. Another example is at Bangladesh. I've been able to track 51 um carrying ships, 51 ships uh that were built in the United States, but torn apart and and scrapped in Bangladesh. And uh we're able to show a number of asbestos-related health hazards in Bangladesh. Now, we have to sort of we have to figure out a way to connect the two, because at least if you want to try this in the United States, we have to be able to say how this particular person's asbestos was based on that particular ship. And and connecting the two, given how they do ship recycling, can be somewhat difficult. But we are able to show that there are 51 ships built in the United States with asbestos, likely put on in the States, because that's all they used at the time, uh, that were eventually torn apart in Bangladesh and would likely have uh had their asbestos flown away and and taken away and stuff like that. So if we can get the situation, uh which requires some politics, World Health Organizations, United Nations, and all those, in terms of how can we help each other here? Um, how can we do better? Maybe save some lives. My particular aspect, what I would like to do at the end of the day for my dissertation, is I'd like to put a website together with all 195 countries that you can click. Someone gets diagnosed with mesothelioma or some other asbestos containing uh cancer, they can click one or two clicks and understand what it all means and where it's all at. And if you say I was uh exposed in Togo or I was exposed in Nigeria, I was exposed in Bangladesh, it would respond saying, here's what would be the potential exposure in those areas. Um, and in a way that's readable, so to speak. That is, bring information and knowledge to the people who need it, versus sort of hiding it behind the door, and some is in the South Africa and some is a little here. John Mansfield imported uh a bunch of asbestos from South Africa, blue asbestos, the white asbestos they took from Canada, they could do their own. That's those are stories that can be told that make it more understandable, and and that's what my goal is, so to speak. Working with other professionals, uh and they can stand on my shoulders and I can stand on their shoulders and and and try and work it forward. That's that's what I see my role uh in this. And people like Linda Reinstein and Yvonne Waterman and Arthur Rose and and all the other fine people who've been fighting this battle, um, I'm happy to join them in the trenches.

Blue Asbestos On Lake Michigan Beaches

Speaker 7 15:07

So with this approach, have you got a case study that you can tell us about?

Speaker 3 15:12

Well the Bangladesh one, obviously, uh in terms of to Lake Michigan? Oh, sure. The um the one I just did actually a presentation on last week was the danger to children from blue asbestos on the lake shore of uh Lake Michigan, just north of Chicago. That was my third thesis in my master's program. Uh and I visited the lakeshore a couple different times. I actually used to live probably about an hour from that area for many years. And what happened is John Mansfield in 1923 started manufacturing asbestos containing products a hundred feet off the lakeshore. And their their waste pit, which they put in 600,000 tons. Think about how much 600,000 tons are, but that's what they went into their asbestos waste pit between 1923 and the early 1980s. Um and when they went into bankruptcy and negotiated a whole lot of stuff with the EPA and similar organizations, they had to clean up certain items, but they didn't have to clean up that area. In spite of the fact that one of the local fishermen specifically said, hey, we got the problems here, you should clean this area up. They got a letter two days later that basically said to pound sand uh and that they clean up that area only later if in fact something showed. About ten years later, there's asbestos all over the place. There was a fire, and asbestos pieces were all over the place. And that and the harm is that the asbestos you see isn't the dangerous asbestos. It's the asbestos that you can't see. Uh example, in the John Mansville situation in um in Joaquin, in Joaquin, Illinois, they made uh asbestos uh cement piping in the uh waste pipe, you only had white asbestos. But in the um in the water pressure pipe, you had both a formulated Chrysotile and Crocidolite. So you actually have uh you know blue asbestos fibers uh sticking out. This is the best beach in Illinois, so that's sort of known as a wildlife preserve. And now you have kids playing with asbestos content there. And just as a story, my wife and I were walking down the beach, and another lady and her kids and a couple other people were on a road trip, walked up and they saw the sign that said uh asbestos, be careful. And uh she looks at me and goes, What's asbestos? What's that all about? And then I described it for her, and it just turns out a coincidence, and she said, Well, how would I know what to do with it? How would I how do I know whether something's asbestos? And then we tried to call the phone number that's on the signs that says if you find asbestos call the number. And we called that number. I called the number, and it gave me four options, none of which was asbestos. It's a park range of this or that, and and none of which gave you directions for asbestos, in spite of the fact that the science says that's what you're supposed to do. We do a terrible job throughout the world in dealing with asbestos on a consistent basis. Where in the United States the average asbestos case is worth one to two million dollars. In the UK and Australia, a lot less than that. In the US, you have to you have to tie it into the specific manufacturer versus in the UK where you can tie it into the employer. There's there's there's just a we don't do things well in an inconsistent basis. We need to find ways to make this what I'll call the economic justice and and and work through that. And and we just haven't done a good job because there's so many of these cases out there and the judges and stuff treat them differently. We don't we we're not winning this battle at this point, although a lot of people are pulling forward in the right direction.

Speaker 7 18:58

I I think the world's struggling with asbestos.

The Confusing Two Percent Rule

Speaker 7 19:01

Pretty much you just especially with the with with the coloured sand. So just before we asked the team about the world systems approach, you talked about China and did you say the 2% rule? Because I've heard that ACMs and asbestos items or items that could contain asbestos, uh, they have if it's under 10%, then it's sent around the world under 5, under 2%. Do we actually know? I are the different companies different percentages of asbestos within their materials?

Speaker 3 19:33

But what's interesting is they shouldn't, obviously, because um if you're exposed, you're exposed, and there's no reason to differ the same exposure on the beach of Witterboom and in the uh uh you know the bowels of Libby vermiculite. Um but what you have is, and we saw this in the uh blue asbestos, where they said, well, it's under 2%, we don't have to worry about it. And then fortunately, the parent company or the parent government company says that's not the way the two percent rule works. 2% rule means you don't call asbestos but asbestos-containing product, but if it has asbestos in it, it doesn't matter if it's 1%, 12%, you still have a duty to ensure that it's handled safely. And so that 2% rule tends to confuse people more than anything else. Um and and there are there are good people who do that type of training. I I couldn't tell you uh how you do the the sampling and stuff, but there is a uh website on Facebook that's called the American uh Asbestos Professionals Network. It's about 17,000 people throughout the world that's on it. And if someone has a question and doesn't know where to start, they just basically join it and they put the question in, and that's a starting point uh if they have no other place to start. I think it's an excellent website.

Speaker 7 20:52

So a world systems approach, there are certain countries around the world that still use asbestos, so it's it's hard, it will be very hard in the future to get a a world ban. So a world systems approach. What do you think, Terri Ann?

Speaker 1 21:08

I I look, I absolutely agree that because of the way asbestos was mined and transported to so many different countries, because it's already inherent in so many countries building stock, it makes sense that we need a joined up way of approaching this. And you know, we've also got a whole load more asbestos still going to some countries that don't have a ban, which you mentioned, Jason. Um, so I you know, I agree that absolutely this this needs to be the way forward. The thing that concerns me most is that so for those who are listening who don't know New Zealand, we don't have um, we don't pursue generally. That doesn't happen. So if somebody was exposed to asbestos, it's very unlikely that you would put a claim in. What you would do is you would actually apply to ACC, and that is a group that will cover accidents and um They will actually provide you with some money to help towards treatment and the fact that you can't work. And that's how it works here. So there's no real gain in terms of suing. And so that's not part of what we do. So that that carrot almost for the government of saying, well, look how much money is being lost because we're not looking after people and we're not preventing asbestos-related disease isn't really there. And yet we're still not managing it, to my mind, any better than anywhere else, really. The one thing that I think makes this so hard is the latency period, which we've talked about so many times. But the fact is that it's incredibly difficult to actually link the episode, the exposure, with the development of disease. So even though we know, we know what causes mesothelioma, okay, we know that. And we know that it's very restricted to asbestos and asbestos minerals, it's still really difficult to get buy-in from the people who hold the purse strings that would be able to set up a group that would be a world forum that could focus on asbestos. And I feel that perhaps with WHO, that that's just one thing in a whole wave of things that they're trying to deal with. For me, I'd love there to be an extension of that group you just described. Wouldn't it be great to have something like that that was a global forum where you could bring ideas and connection together? But I fear that it's going to be a voluntary thing. And I say that only because when it's voluntary, it does put a lot of pressure on things. And I know that from running a charity, that you know, it's a lot of time and it can be exhausting at times. But I I totally agree that it does need to be looked at from a world perspective.

Speaker 3 23:43

The other is if I can just continue in that in that vein. Part of the problem is the is the verbal way of dealing with it. People say that mesothelioma is a rare cancer. At the same time, people understand that 200,000 people per year die of mesothelioma in the occupational setting, and it is the largest killer in the occupational set occupational setting. So saying it's a rare disease really doesn't do us any favors when in fact there's 200,000 people per year. And if you think about that, with a 30-year delay, 200,000 people a year, 30-year delay, that means there's six million walking dead people today that just don't know it. Between now and the 30 years, there will be six million people that die. And each year they're gonna have, unless they change something, another 200,000 join that list. That should be enough, my opinion, to at least get someone's attention um and and try and take it the next step. But the politics right now is very difficult as as we all know. Some places like I think Australia and New Zealand and and the UK are doing a better job on the legacy asbestos than the US is doing. France had a seminar last year on legacy asbestos only and invited a lot of international people. One of my my teammates was there. So there's lots to work with that we need to we need to talk about it in terms that people just say it's not a big deal because it's a rare rare occurrence. So um and that uh like my dad was exposed supposedly in uh World War II on the ships. He was in the Navy, and that would have been 35 years before he passed away.

Speaker 4 25:31

So a world systems approach, Rob. So what's your thoughts?

Speaker 5 25:39

Well, I suppose to be pretty direct, you know, we live in a globally connected world, which we've really found out through our interactions with sand, uh among other materials recently. Um and risks are moving around the world across borders every day. Without a world approach, asbestos exposure doesn't reduce, it just shifts to somewhere else, and we can't stop it. So I think from my perspective, the only way to fix the problem internationally is to have a world approach. I suppose moving moving forward from there, recently in a podcast, Marty, uh, we touched on asbestos in drinking water systems around the world, and it was really an eye-opener for us. Um we know you've really looked into a number of these case studies that you've mentioned, Marty. Could you start us talking through the Challenger disaster and possibly move into the Bangladesh issue?

Challenger Space Shuttle Putty And What Really Changed

Speaker 3 26:45

Certainly. Uh Challenger was how this came about is when I was practicing law, I had a good friend who had been a PhD at Ford Mortar Company Brakes, and one of the smartest people that I had ever met. And we're just having lunch once and we're talking about weird things where asbestos was involved, and he said that it was the asbestos substitute that failed on the challenger and causing the the uh tragedy. And that's what always stuck in my mind. So um when I went into my master's, I asked to do that as my first thesis, and my professor initially said no, this is this is a cities type of course, and this wouldn't apply. And I said, come on. And she gave me a little bit of deference and so allowed me to research that. And so the question I was researching was, did an asbestos substitute cause the challenger to fail? The first thing you find out is there was no asbestos substitute. So the question is nonsensical. Um what occurred is the old asbestos-containing putty uh by Fuller um Fuller O'Brien? Yeah, I uh as I say that I can't remember the name exactly, but their old asbestos putty, they stopped making it because of lawsuits. They were a painting company and they just wanted to get out and they did a hard stop telling the uh NASA, giving them like two or three years' notice. And then they started to look at new putties. And what this putty did is the the O-rings that failed uh and the coal, this putty would protect. That was the only role for the putty in the entire ship is to make sure that those um uh o-rings didn't get too hot before they sealed. And that was the whole and that's what they did throughout all of the the uh uh their lives before that. And then when we were looking for the new putty, um they found a new putty that that was best to breed. They tried to find one that wasn't asbestos and they could not find one. So they went back with an asbestos putty again. But that asbestos putty was a different type of asbestos putty. They both had the minimum price of towel that they needed, but the uh this asbestos putty had a larger diameter and longer uh fibers. And the reason we know that is because I contacted the chemist who actually made that determination, and I got him his report, and his report says of note is that, and it wasn't it wasn't denied because of this, because the the length wasn't a a preck, you know, wasn't part of the spec. Uh the only thing was minimum percentage of Chrysotile, and he said it had that, so I had to prove it. But I did note down there that this had an unusually uh high level of of long longer longer asbestos fibers and bigger diameter. And if you look at the literature, that means that the fibers would be weaker and they wouldn't survive as long. And whether that made the ultimate distant difference or not, we'll never know because he didn't take measurements or that, and there would have been other changes potentially in the putty. And I worked with four NASA scientists who were involved in the putty issue and the changeover, and including the people at the uh at the the night before the launch, it was you know, pounding on the table, thou shalt not launch. Talk to those, and they were incredibly useful and helpful um and and amazing. And that's where we came to. Um, I got a small fellowship from the U.S. Air Force Academy Library for it. Um it was an amazing experience uh to to go through, and it was it was interesting to see that if you go on the internet now, there's still a difference for people saying it was a putty, it wasn't a putty, it was a changing putty, it was not a changing putty. Even Beaujolais, Roger Beaujolais, who was the person who was most into trying to stop the launch, um, he has two articles he's authored, including a 10,000 page or 1,000 page uh manuscript that that I was like the second or third person that was allowed to look at it. Uh what he didn't think, he didn't recall the new new putty having asbestos, he thought it was a non-asbestos. But when you get to the documents and you get to the people who actually did the testing, it was in fact uh just substituting one asbestos putty for another asbestos putty. Uh and then wondering if the length and diameter change might have made a difference. It was a fascinating project.

Speaker 4 31:19

AMC.

Speaker 6 31:20

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Bangladesh Shipbreaking And Exported Risk

Speaker 3 33:08

Uh the the next one I did was on Bangladesh Shipbreaker Laborers, and I was in contact with several people down in Bangladesh, uh, including one of the people who are now in the office uh with the with with uh the new the new government. She was in charge of Bellow, which is the uh Bangladesh Environmental Law Association at the time. And uh I worked with the union laborers and just it was an amazing experience to work with these people. At the same time I worked with a doctor down there, you'll see there's actually a medical report that I'm the fourth or fifth author on, uh that I helped him with his uh medical exams that he did. And realistically, all I did is make sure that the numbers add up and that uh they're consistent and that it was he English wasn't his first language. So I translated to make sure that it was in English, it was published. Um I had offered just to do it to free, and he he insisted that I take an author position. So I have an author position in that. And then my third one was the Blue Asbestos on the Beach of Chicago, which I've worked closely with, the uh NGO responsible for that beach. Uh they have provided, in fact, this this week is a new EPA administrator up there in Chicago, and they're downloading documents to them, including my thesis, is being downloaded to him this week as they continue the dialogue. It looks like some movement is uh is afoot up there in terms of trying to give a little bit more help. But you know, with the current government, who knows where it all goes. Those are really my three big ones last last time.

Speaker 5 34:43

Have the rest of the team come across this before? I'll go to you, Jason, first.

Speaker 7 34:50

Yeah, I I've seen various articles about asbestos uh around the world, different countries, different circumstances, and I just find Marty's blog fascinating. In these third world countries or emerging countries, they're they're still using asbestos, so people are always going to be exposed to the substance.

Speaker 3 35:14

Certain ones, um, and you know, we can't really save much in the US because we still allow asbestos in certain situations, too. Um very, very tight, but that we don't have a full hard stop on asbestos. Um and some third world company countries have. I reviewed a uh asbestos policy by a gentleman who's writing it for Togo uh because they are concerned about it. You know, India is certainly continuing to use it, especially for the roofing and and the piping. But there are some developed developing nations that have, you know, I think there's like 71 total nations that that ban it. Uh getting rid of the new stuff is easier than getting rid of the legacy stuff because it's tough to find. Uh but but there are countries, even in in spite of the poverty of making headways there. And there are countries such as the US that have only made limited headway in spite of the fact that we have no excuse not to make more headway.

Speaker 5 36:13

How about you, Terri anne? Is there anything that you can sort of add to that from what you've seen?

Speaker 1 36:19

Yeah, I suppose the two things that spring to mind that perhaps aren't necessarily discussed much anymore. Um, one is an old one and one's an emerging one. So the older one is the Mr. Fluffy um situation, sorry. Which um, you know, as a case study, it's a really interesting one. And I was lucky enough to be able to go into uh to Australia and actually have a look at the homes. And they took us inside to show us what they were doing in there and how they'd, you know, they spray, they remove everything inside and then they spray it all with PVA and paint so that you can see where it's been sprayed, and that's there just in case there are any loose fibre still hanging around before it gets sent to uh landfill. So that was a really interesting one, and and I think that was that impacted a lot of homes. And then the other one that I've been investigating recently has been around asbestos on beaches and looking at how often ACM being washed up on beaches, how often it happens, and also how widespread it is. Um, so we've been looking at, you know, where does it come from? How many countries have it been impacted? And probably the most interesting thing for me from a science perspective is actually the difference in the approaches from the different countries. What do they do about it? Um, how do they deal with it? Do they have signage? Do they have a cleanup procedure? And it's so variable. And again, you go back to your world system approach, there's no consistency there, and it would be lovely to think that, you know, one day we might have an approach that was consistent and was keeping people safe. Um, but yeah.

Speaker 3 37:46

One of the things, I mean your your Mr. Fluffy is similar to our Libby uh vermiculite, which is a of course an asbestos form a mineral. And and we have the same type of issues that you do. What they do for vermiculite, they think they will pay 50% of the remediation. So if you buy a house and it turns out to have vermiculite, the government has a program that I think is a 50%. So you'd have to eat 50% and they would have to take 50, 50%. And yet, every every country handles differently. There's not a lot of consistency. Um, it would be nice. That it's it's nice. My hope is that we get more conversations, other than like the United States, which is really how much can you sue someone for, which is unfortunate, but that's what what the system is we have. Um have a conversation on okay, if this is ever going to go away, now's the time to deal with it before the additional people become sick. How can we do that within the bounds of of money that's available to do it, or how can we get donations from various organizations? And um there there's a lot still to do and and it's very difficult to do it, especially in our current political problems over here in the States. We've started taking ourselves off. Uh Trump wrote in a book about 1995 that he thought that the asbestos was a scam by labor unions, and that asbestos was fine. And uh so the Russians actually started putting out at least some some packages of asbestos with Trump's picture on them. Uh so you know we're not gonna get much help from this particular administration. But it doesn't mean we have to sit on our hands. There's lots of things that can be done in previews and uh example as you talked about, the uh uh the uh ingestion for fibers. Um there's a lot of us working on that right now. And Julian, whom you talked with, in my opinion, having talked to him last week, he knows as much about that particular issue as anyone right now. But that's what my thesis will be on, and he's he's downloading stuff to me, and I'd love to do an article with him afterwards. Uh but he certainly knows the stuff, and we can use that as a team and try and figure out you know how can we do better as a team. Who can we get to join us? What other academicians can join us that have done research on these things? Whether it's Van Hoosen or Bob Jones or the lady in Australia who I just can't think of, she put together a 290-page PhD dissertation a couple of years ago, and she's now teaching a professor in Australia. But get the people energized that have been involved in this and figure out how we can work together.

Speaker 5 40:29

And are there any other sort of similar examples either here in New Zealand or internationally that sort of sit outside the traditional built environment as a team? I mean, I suppose I can I'll kick off with one just to um set it out there. And finding out that you had um asbestos in in in children's makeup and play product, you know, uh that that for me was quite uh a pivotal moment when I found out that that was happening and continues to happen to this day. And the challenge I see with that is the you know, the different opinions from different states, and going back to the sort of world approach, you know, it while you're having individual uh states and countries and jurisdictions all having different opinions of that, it sort of it perpetuates the problem that that we're seeing and what we're facing, I think, and that is has anyone else got any um additional examples for um stuff that sits outside of the traditional environment?

Speaker 3 41:33

The one thing I see for one thing that's is that a question to me, Rob, or is that to one of the others?

Speaker 5 41:37

Yeah, yeah, for everyone, it's an open forum.

Speaker 3 41:40

The one thing that's sort of it's it's weird here in the United States because we don't even know the terminology is the fly tipping for the dumping of asbestos on people's yards. We don't have that here. I go to my friends and they've never heard of the term, and we've done asbestos stuff for a long, long time. Never even heard of the term in the US when it's become such a big issue in the UK and in Australia and other places that don't have uh places that you can bury the asbestos. And so what happens is they dump it on someone's yard, and and that has to be taken care of. So somewhere down the line, people are being exposed to asbestos just during the process of trying to hide it. Which again in the United States we don't see uh because we have plenty of waste space, I guess. Uh but there's all types of just weird one-offs like that.

Speaker 5 42:29

Hmm. Definitely an ongoing issue that we're experiencing in New Zealand, going back to Terry Ann's point around asbestos on the beaches, you know, some of that will be from previously buried material that's been eroded over time and and actually come out in weather events, but also when you restrict the ability for people to dump it, you create that problem. I I have to say, I definitely concur with your point, Marty, and that's probably why if you've got an extensive network in America, that it's a less of an issue, I suppose.

Speaker 3 43:02

Not an issue here, they don't even know the terminology, Robert.

Speaker 1 43:07

We did have a um a really interesting case study, it was only yesterday, of somebody who had stolen a bag, and the bag just happened to be full of asbestos waste, um, which is, I'm gonna say that's outside of the building built environment. Um, and then my own uh little bugbeer, and the thing that I've been pushing quite hard for, it it's linked to the built industry, but it's actually as we increase our um reuse and recycling capability for building materials, um, that really concerns me. Uh, you know, I've been involved in a few concrete crushing um operations and and discussed well, you know, what are the procedures for checking to see if there's asbestos in the cement? And in some cases, the answer's been well, we asked the question. And, you know, that kind of really, really disturbs me because yes, we do want to try and avoid putting everything in landfill. Yes, we. Use and recycling brilliant. Do we have enough controls around asbestos at the moment? I don't think we do. Um, and so it is from the built environment, but actually the industry that's been impacted is the waste industry and those waste providers who probably aren't as aware as people who are builders. So, yeah, for me, I think that that that definitely needs to be addressed. And it's something I keep asking for, but I think again, I probably talk too much about asbestos.

Speaker 5 44:30

Yeah, a common example as well, just to bring that home even further, is that we've traditionally taken building materials or underline building materials, and we know here a particular story in New Zealand where some of the old fibre cement sheets, when they stopped producing them, were given away, uh essentially in pipe work and stuff was given away to farmers who proceeded to crush that up and use it on farm tracks that would go up and down New Zealand. And uh, so we find it all over the place as a result of that. And you know, that wasn't intentional by them. There was no malice in that, it was just an accepted practice at the time. And obviously, over time we've realized that that's created a significant legacy issue for us that traditionally sits out on you know areas that you wouldn't believe or wouldn't think would have asbestos-related products there.

Speaker 3 45:22

There's uh in the United States, too, the John Mansville major facility, the biggest uh manufacturing facility in Mansville, New Jersey. Uh, there's a book that's been published with about 100 interviews when John Mansfield closed. And it's the people basically got to say whatever they wanted to. And many of them talked about coming to the United States in the 1920s, getting a job in the in the uh coal mines, getting concerned with black lung disease. So they actually took a job with John Mansfield, which was just up the road, to save their lungs, so to speak. And obviously, it's you know, from the fire to the uh uh to the frying pan, type of thing. But what's interesting is you had a lot of testimony there where John Mansfield was a really good employer during the Depression. They kept their people there. They and in a lot of that people don't sue them because, you know, they they uh what they say is, you know, I wouldn't have been able to feed my family or have a house above me if it wasn't for John Mansfeld. Um and so they're not willing to to go after Mansfield. Uh but there's all types of stories there about how it used to snow in July and things like that, where it clearly was an unfavorable environment, but they still built on the loyalties of their employees. And and I think deservedly so. If if your choice is not to eat and you can't put a roof over your head because it's a depression, you're finding a company that's trying to go out of the way to do that, you've got to give them some kudos. So I'm not a fan of the company, obviously, but I don't believe on a day-to-day evil empire, so to speak. I think a lot of mistakes were made. I think there were some uh I think there certainly were some things said that shouldn't be said, such as the conversation between Mansville and um I can't think the guy in Canada, as to, you know, people that if they've earned a good living with asbestos, they should be okay at dying with asbestos. You know, there's all types of people that do that type of stupid stuff. But but I I you know if you look back as to snowing uh in July, you look back as to the dump being open, because they what they would do is they'd open up their dump of excess material once a week or once a month and allow people to come in. So they'd bring their wagons in and they'd build chicken sheds and all types of stuff. It wasn't it wasn't out of malice. They thought they were doing a good job at that point in the 1920s. Um, and unfortunately, we pay for it now.

Latency Period And Normalized Risk

Speaker 1 47:47

And that actually brings us nicely into the next topic, because we are going to have a talk now about the dreaded latency period. Now, I've already mentioned it once, but to any of our listeners at the moment, if you haven't heard of this term, it's basically the length of time it takes between being exposed and actually developing the disease. Now, unfortunately, that length of time can be massively variable, so it can go anywhere from 15 to 40 years. And whilst in some respects that's a good thing, because if you've been exposed, it means that you won't necessarily develop disease straight away. It's also a really bad thing because it's actually ended up being really problematic when we're trying to encourage people to invest in reducing exposure risks. And so my question today is Marty, can you tell us a bit about why it's so difficult, why that latency period has such a big impact on getting people to sit up and start changing how we do things and preventing these exposure um incidences?

Speaker 3 48:48

Sure. I'm going to take this on two sides. The first, we're going to talk about you've been exposed, uh, it's bad practices, uh, why don't you change the practices? And there's a concept that the sociologists use, especially was developed by Diane Vaughn, uh, who was a professor at the University of Chicago, called normalization of deviance. That is, if you deviated from good practice, nothing hits you, nothing died. I'm just going to keep going with that practice. And it's normalized, normalization of the deviant deviance. Um, and you see that in in these long-term exposures where, you know, okay, I can either I can either feed my family as a shipbreaker in Bangladesh and go out there now, or I can be worried about asbestos in 30 years. And so, do you want to feed your family or do you want to worry about it 30 years? You worry about it 30 years, it's normalized the deviance. And in fact, you'll have a number of people who deal with asbestosis and some of the the the other uh issues. The other thing with with the time frame, of course, is it's tough to track where the exposure came from. The United States, because of the way the bankruptcy laws work and because of that, they've had a pretty good track record of of being able to find a lot of exposure. And and but now you're dealing with one expert says yes, one expert says no. There's no good way to track it other than through what we call the battle the experts. And then a lot of the old documents have been now discovered for the bigger players, and they will actually have uh listings. So if you were exposed between 19 out this and 19 out that at this particular factory, here's the five or six companies you would have been exposed to, take them to the bankruptcy and you get the money that uh you would get you can get. You don't get the full recovery, but the money at the percentage you would be entitled to. So it it makes it difficult on both ends with this uh lengthy uh deviation. And and we see it all the time in terms of the deviation. The challenger is a perfect example. It hadn't failed, so we'll just sort of keep going with what we're doing. Uh and and when it does fail, it's too late. Yeah.

Speaker 1 51:04

Have you got anything to add, boys, Rob?

Speaker 5 51:10

I mean, not merely from me. I mean, I think that the more I hear this stuff and the more I'm exposed to these conversations, that um you know, it just gives me a bit more of a fire in my belly. And uh, you know, the history side of things is key because for me, um, understanding that long history and even overlaying that with the latency period, really, you know, we we've been experiencing this for long enough to to be able to fix it. And I think that with with the right people in the room, we can, and and uh yeah, so I think really just from my perspective, you know, just keep talking about this stuff and you know you know is key, and us doing what we're doing is key.

Speaker 7 52:01

Yeah, it's very difficult with the latency period, and what I've found meeting people during our MSAA Trust coffee mornings is that sometimes people with me sothelioma you'll you'll ask them, Do you do you know where you've been exposed? And some people don't. Some people do, some people don't. Working in the hospitals or working in the teaching environment, there could have been refurbishment works going on and there could have been smashing up asbestos because they weren't aware, they will have been exposed without knowing. Uh, and it's just just very, very sad.

Speaker 5 52:39

I think in addition as well, just to your point there, Jason, which is a really good one, if we think from a specifically New Zealand perspective, um, and the way in which we fund and are funded through ACC for um our accent geo, whenever they're looking at this type of stuff that I'm aware of, it's like, you know, when we talk about safety, we always want to prevent this occurring. We always want to put controls in place to prevent this occurring. But the challenge is long with with the latency period, is that you put a control in place today, you will not see the benefits for multiple generations. And because you don't see it for multiple generations, it's really hard when we have such short election time frames and governments all over the world, you know, um, four-year terms, three-year terms here, to justify a multi-year strategy to try and reduce that. It always, you know, it's always important to them. But how do you prioritize it and put it at the top of the list for them as well? And I think, as I said earlier on, you know, identifying it and and having these conversations and letting people know about it so that they can all push on their own electorates to try and get some change as well in government. Because if the populace know the risks and what this looks like, I think that you know, they can talk to their MPs, their MPs can hopefully support us in our mission to try and you know um provide provisions and be a lot safer when it comes to working with or around this material, really.

Speaker 1 54:23

And I just think I want to say on the plus side, you're spot on because actually I don't think I've ever had or heard of so many groups, interest groups, who are involved in bringing this problem out into the open for people to see. You know, it's it's been it feels like there's real momentum building behind it. There's lots of great people doing great stuff, but the best thing is that they're all willing to share that great stuff. So I think actually we are really raising the profile. Every single person who's involved is raising the profile, and you know, surely something good has to come of it eventually. Um, but it's definitely a tough nut. Um, Jason.

Speaker 7 55:02

So, Marty, to the blog.

Building A Public Asbestos Knowledge Base

Speaker 7 55:05

Uh, if you haven't seen the blog, there will be a link down below, and it's uh www.theasbestosblog.com. And this incredible resource has 225 blogs on asbestos. Last time we looked, there could be more because Marty's very busy. Uh Marty, how long has the blog been going? And tell us why you won the Alan is it ri Rhinstein Award in 2023?

Speaker 3 55:40

Yeah, um, I have because of my heavy PhD schedule, I've sort of skipped the blog for the last few months, but I do plan to get back to it. My the blog is I started in December 2020, which is the week before, two weeks before I was gonna start my uh uh master's program. And uh if you're gonna educate people, example I can do a thesis on the challenger, but if no one sees it, what good is it, right? So I use the blog to get out other documents. I have a a library that's probably second to none dealing with asbestos. Uh some are older documents, some are newer documents, some are government. Uh I bought stuff in uh the UK. For example, I have four pamphlets by the British Subcommittee of Intelligence right after World War II that they sent people into Germany to figure out what how Germany basically lost the war in many ways because they did not have enough asbestos and stuff like that. So I've got all these resources, and if I don't use them, how is everyone going to ever know about them? So I made the call to try and do the blog. I spent exactly $0.00 and zero cents in putting it up because my daughter's boyfriend did it for me, who used to be employed by Apple Computer in terms of repairing. Uh he was one of the warranty people where you know he'd sit at home and they'd put three monitors up. And uh so he um so he's very good at this stuff, and he and my daughter live in an RV and travel the country. And so he agreed. And in many ways, you see what's there is things that he did. Uh I think I did have to pay for some for some of the underlying platform, but it wasn't wasn't much. It's really turned out well. I've only had two articles that people have, you know, the junk stuff you see where people try and make you mad and they they screw up your stuff. So I've had a couple um that I've had to take down because of that, and it's just people doing junk stuff. Um, and you can get to any of my articles and everything through the blogs. And in many ways, if someone says, Marty, do you have anything on Bones Corning? I go, look at this blog, or do you have anything on this? And and it's available. And what's what's interesting is is the blogs, each one of my blogs has their own ranking on Google. So you get hit, you don't get a hit. My one on one of the smaller ones I have, um, and I'm trying to think of what which one it is. I'm it's gonna drink, it I I did one three or four page blog, and for the last two years it's number one hit on Google. And if you go there for, you know, put in uh asbestos challenger, I'll be the number third or fourth hit, first page. But that means it's getting out there because if you're on the third, fourth, fifth page is not that good. If you can be on the first page, that's pretty awesome. And so um I started it and people liked it, and I use it for my own benefit because I have too many books to store in a closet. Um, and sometimes it's tough for me to find them. But but I want to because I want to give them to people who need them. Uh and I again I've got I've got books all the way back to 1700 where the the Penny magazine uh in England and it talked about fireproof clothing back in it was 1791, something like that. I have one of the originals. I just like it and I think it's interesting, and um again, I want to get back to it, but I I recognize it takes time and it's a I PhD is a lot of work. The master's was a lot of work, but the PhD can be overwhelming. And so I'm gonna get through that this summer and then we'll start racking it back up. And I've never had any person blog except me. That is, I don't traditionally I haven't had allow people to do uh blogging, etc. I I I did one on uh filters for beer that someone in the UK uh had really done the work, and so I he allowed me to put it down and I cited him for it. But other than that, it's just been the work that I've done, and we'll continue. And then I've come across a couple of people at a recent seminar that also are dealing with asbestos, although many one time off. Like um when the University of California, Berkeley had a fire, how did they handle the asbestos and how did they design stuff like that? And I sort of like to introduce her to this and her work because I thought that she did an excellent job. So I'm thinking of allowing something like that to be a blog. But so far I haven't done anything like that. But I just think she'd be a good way to start. I think quite honestly she'd be good in the business. Um you know there aren't a lot of people who go for the PhDs that say, I want to do asbestos or asbestos for normally want to do with race or gender or some of the other bigger issues, because that's how they get jobs at graduate students, right? That's um and so that's the way they go. But uh I I I like the blog. I think people have told me it's been value. Of the 225, I probably have more like 220 because I I recycle in terms of blogs once in a while, or I give the summaries and that type of stuff. But it's substantial and starts off with the basics and then works its way towards more complex. And I think I have three, we talked about the ingestion of fibers. I think I have three or four different blogs on that, including does it hurt? Yes. No, wait, you make the decision. Based on the science, it's it's it's up and down and all around, and which is what I want. I'm not the scientist, I'm the person trying to get the facts for the scientist, uh, have my input in whatever way. Uh, but you know, you got a whole lot of smarter people than me in terms of the scientific aspect, and I can get the documents that give the underlying foundation, where many times it's too late of someone's already sick and dying to be able to start that thing.

Speaker 7 1:01:53

So yeah, it's it's certainly an eclectic collection of all sorts of documents, uh absolutely fascinating, I must admit. So so you go searching for these uh documents and that they also get sent to you as well, is that right?

Speaker 3 1:02:11

Uh yeah, we'll do trades and stuff like that. But my big way is I search on eBay, Amazon, and AbleBooks. Um between the three of them, I generally can find stuff they like. And I'll just go on once a month in front of the TV and just sort of see what's going on. Um and the the problem with with some of this, some people just are nuts for what they're asking for price-wise. And and I won't go down that. There was a uh book for John Mansfield on on slums. What happens in the 1930s is it turned the slums down. And John Mansfield was offering its materials to build them back up. But the guy wanted like a hundred bucks for the book, and that's just out of mind. I I just for one book that just didn't make sense on an issue that doesn't come up often. But I thought it'd be interesting because here's what John Mansfield's trying to do during the uh depression, and I didn't know that that there was a uh the government of the United States was processed tearing down slums, all the extra houses they had out processed. Didn't know that until I saw the book from Anvil. So you never know what you you get from from that. Um but yeah, there's there's an active amount of us out there that will if you need something, especially Lori. Yeah you guys know Lori, right? Yeah. Lori Kazan Allen. Yeah. She is uh a wonder when it comes to some of the older stuff, and she's just very generous with her time, as was obviously um Mavis Nye. And and Yvonne's that way, and Linda's that way, and and I've never met anyone in this business that goes, no, I'm not gonna help you.

Speaker 7 1:03:51

It's just not a point of interest. What sort of numbers, hits do you get around and and whereabouts from around the world? Do you get from all over the world? And is there thousands of people uh looking online?

Speaker 3 1:04:05

Yeah, I know that you know this is not like my daughter who's an Instagram two million hit type type person. Uh, but I think I'm over 37,000 hits since December of uh 220 when I put it up. Um I get a reasonable amount. I've had I had one day, I don't know why, but what happened? Someone decided they liked my website to like 200 hits one day or 300 hits one day. But typically I'll get when it's active, I'll get the day that I actually do the posting, I get somewhere between 50 and 100. And then between the postings, if I do it once a week, I get five or ten each each time. And and I probably fielded a dozen or so phone calls where people have looked for stuff, uh several dozen emails where they've been looking for stuff. Um and and so I can, it isn't just what they're finding, it's what I can get to them that's important. Uh and it doesn't really matter what side they're on. I I don't say you represent plaintiffs, defendants, or anything. If you need something, if I have it, I'll try and get it to you.

Speaker 7 1:05:06

I think it's fantastic work that you're doing. I do. Uh educating people around the world. Well, thank you.

Speaker 1:05:14

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Speaker 3 1:06:17

I'm lucky to be in this position. I'm very fortunate. And uh I and there's a lot of people out there who've been doing it longer than I have, or not maybe longer than I have, but certainly up there in that time and and have been in the the you know, been in the the field doing their work and stuff like that. So I I there's a lot of people working on this, and I'll I'll take my share and I'll help whatever way. So team, uh, have you got any thoughts, Rob?

AI Search Tools And Better Detection

Speaker 5 1:06:45

Yeah, a couple of thoughts for me. Um one is the information is critical, and it's something that you know in my career that I've struggled to obtain and get hold of, and and I'm sort of thinking laterally here. Um I think though there has some dangers, I think AI has huge potential here. It can really bring together decades of this fragmented information um in the form of data and make it usable. But that being said, uh, I always have to say this because AI just scales the problem if the underlying information is not accurate and just so that there is a bit of a challenge around how you would do that. But but if you have good data sources like you've got Marty and that can be shared with a wider thing, I think it would help us definitely spread that message to the wider populace because knowing what went by, I mean, I'm still shocked now when I talk to experts in the field and I find out new information I didn't know before, and it's quite scary. And you understand uh, you know, understanding the history of it is is great and where it comes from and so forth. But I think if the general pup public understood some of those things there, they'd probably take a different view, you know, around the asbestos and they would understand perhaps some of those risks in where it was within the built environment and in our natural environments as well. I think yeah, having an AI solution to be able to then quickly ask a question and get all of that information very, very quickly would be ideal for me, really.

Speaker 3 1:08:28

Yeah, and my my goal is eventually to have a website uh in terms of having this all available for one click. I think you have to have a form of AI. And I, you know, if I get to this point in three or four years of putting it up, I don't think AI looks the same in three or four years as it does today. I think you're gonna have developments, I think uh they'll be there, I think, making it available for anyone to click on it. You know, there's a lot of things I'd like to do, and the issue is what technology will allow us to do uh at that point, um especially since ours would be connected to the documents, so that if someone, if they came out and said, this date, this document, et cetera, then we should have that document that we can pull. Other than, you know, like you hear the stuff now where people really get lazy with it. They put it up there, they don't proofread it, they don't do all that stuff. So I and a lot of it has to do with then how do you use it and and stuff like that. But that's the goal, I think. Because AI does more than just saying here's ten documents that fit the bill. Sometimes they can put facts together that you might not have understood. You go by, get the documents, and you make the call. Does this make sense or does this not make sense? But I think you're really right on. Have you got any thoughts, Terri anne?

Speaker 1 1:09:40

Yeah, just one really quick one. Look, I I love the blog, and I'll tell you why, and that is that I've been an academic for a long time, and I can tell you that academic articles are read by one type of person, and that's academics. And this is way bigger than just academia. And so the idea of having a blog where anybody can go and read it, and it's in a format that they can understand, and it's not necessarily highly scientific language that isn't necessarily very engaging. It's also less dry than an academic article. You know, I think it's just so important that that that resource is there and it's bringing these things together, and people can just go and have a read. And and they're really easy to read as well. Um, so I think this is I think it's brilliant. Thank you.

Speaker 3 1:10:28

That's it. I appreciate that. I appreciate the support. I appreciate the support that that you guys give, that everyone else gives. I mean, I I've never had anyone that has called or or vice versa that has been anything other than uh how do we do this or how do we do that? And and can we work together and get us the stuff? And I I'm just I'm just blessed to be where I'm at doing what I want to do.

Speaker 4 1:10:51

And I have my grandkids just down the road. That's good too.

War Zones Disasters And Future Exposure

Speaker 5 1:10:58

All right, so if we move on to the next section now, so as we start to really wrap things up, it would be good to really get your perspective, Marty, on the future.

Speaker 3 1:11:10

The future when it comes to asbestos, if you'd asked me this a couple of years ago, I think that on a worldwide basis, uh, it would be going down and patrols, etc., etc. But you know, these wars are are just they're horrible in many ways, obviously. Uh, but you have more people than just those that get hit now and taken taken out now, in terms of you're gonna have asbestos-related issues on on all those areas, whether they're Palestine or Israel or the Ukraine or Russia or any of the other areas areas, you have those rockets falling on you. Most of the stuff, the building materials during that time frame throughout the world were by an Ethernet company that was asbestos containing uh material, whether it's water pipes or the ceilings or or any of that type of good stuff. So I think and they saw that in the in the World Trade Center where they've had significant issues. Um and it isn't just the asbestos part, but there's other stuff that's in there that's that sort of additive, so to speak. I think we're in for the long run. I think it's not going to be over with in my generation, in spite of the fact that you know if you asked someone who did the litigation about asbestos in 19 uh eighty and nineteen seventy and said that there are this many cases and issues out there, no one would have believed you at that point. It's just the world has not gone the way they thought it would. Um and it's it's this is just one of those horrible side effects of everything else that goes on. Um, I got a email the other day, I'm not sure how I got it, from a company that claims to be setting up a TEM laboratory in Ukraine and looked into asbestos work, and it must have been a two or three page email where they list what they do and all the other good stuff. And I filed it where I normally file stuff like that in terms of if I get back to the point, that's fine. I I asked Ivan and and Arthur whether they'd received it, and enough people received it, I don't feel the need to follow up with it. But there are people out there looking to to assist in those types of items. So um I think I think this is gonna survive long past us, quite honestly. I think the next generation is is gonna have trouble getting rid of it. Unless we can stop these wars and destruction, this it's go forever. I mean, it's just a just a horrible thing.

Speaker 5 1:13:33

So from that global perspective, I mean, what would you just really like to see beyond the war stopping um change out there in the asbestos space?

Speaker 3 1:13:42

The what I would like to see is easier access to spectrometers that are handheld that you could actually go into the building or the ship, because you basically turn the light on and if it's the right frequencies or are what violet or whatever that happens to be, where you can tell whether there's an asbestos exposure before you start doing anything. And I know they've experimented with stuff like that, like in Detroit Housing, where they take it down. We actually there was a um project by uh some students working through CERN uh last year that I helped on a little bit, um, that was out of an Israeli think tank, so to speak. And these were graduate students at CERN. Um, and one of which I'm still a friend of theirs, he's a uh Saudi, so he's he's rising through the ranks, so to speak. But if we can get stuff where people can ID it before they have to do something with it, uh that to me would be the best. Because at that point, all right, you know, ship recycling, this is the rules, uh ceilings, this is the rules, and you know it either has it has it or doesn't. Don't know if we get to there, but that to me would be the best technology change.

Speaker 4 1:14:52

Anything else from the team?

Speaker 5 1:14:55

That's you, Terri Ann.

Speaker 1 1:14:57

Yeah, I I I've just got one comment because I just suddenly thought of something. When we were talking about stuff outside of the built environment, and then Marty started talking about wars. I did see an item in the news, and it was just this week, and it was talking about how they'd found that the um shotgun shells were laced with asbestos. And I thought, well, there's definitely one outside of the build, and and wars are almost the perfect messenger, I guess, for spreading asbestos far and wide. Um, you know, first of all, you've got to deal with the horrors of war, but then also what happens afterwards, and we still don't know a lot about what the impacts will be. Um, so that's for me quite a sobering thought that you know we're doing everything we can to stop asbestos exposure where we can, but we've got this situation where buildings that may well contain asbestos are being blasted right open all over the country, and um who knows what the end result will be. It's pretty scary.

Speaker 3 1:16:01

It is very scary, I agree.

Speaker 7 1:16:04

Yeah, um I agree about the war zones. Um there were people that that will sadly die during during the war, but also those that are being exposed with a latency period, they will die maybe 30, 40 years after the war, and they won't realise they've been being exposed. Also, when you've got earthquakes around the world as well, like the big earthquake that was in in Turkey. Uh a lot of the buildings over there contain asbestos, yeah. So natural disasters can bring forth asbestos exposure. And next 10-20 years, I can see a few countries banning asbestos, but I can't see everybody banning asbestos. Uh I think there's too much money in it. There's still people making profits from selling asbestos, and don't forget they've used it for centuries because it is fantastic material, but it but it kills you. So yeah, I think the asbestos countries that are mining it will keep on mining it and will keep on using it, sadly.

Speaker 5 1:17:07

Thanks for that, Jason. I mean, really, if we try and look at um you know what we would like to see and what could be done, I think raising awareness internationally, providing a resource that's easy accessible, like we were talking about, um, technology giving us to make people aware of those set risks. Because most of the time, most of the damage happens fair enough at the incident side, which you know uh we can't really control, but it's the cleanup afterwards, which is for me the big um concern. Because, for example, you you spoke about the World Trade Centres. If everybody in a local facility had access to that information straight away around the asbestos there and the levels of asbestos sooner rather than later, I think that information will shape people's way of dealing with it. And you talk about war torn zones and so forth. If they knew that these areas were laden with asbestos, they may be able to make a difference in their decision making around whether they stay there or they don't. We understand from an economic perspective that you know some people are attracted where they are because they have nowhere else to go. Uh, I appreciate that. But I do think that you know we can't change everything. But what we can do is change access to information readily for everybody. And if we can improve that, we can minimize those effects, definitely.

Speaker 1 1:18:36

So I get the absolute pleasure of asking the last few questions of today's podcast.

Asbestos In Drinking Water And Ingestion

Speaker 1 1:18:41

And just to say, Marty, it's been great having you on board. We love your historical perspective, it's quite unique. And learning and understanding about past exposure really is the key to be able to help us in the future and prevent some of those future exposures. Now, I know that you've got a pet project at the moment, and we'd love to know a bit more about it. So, your project at the moment is looking at the history and the current knowledge on health issues related to drinking water pipes and asbestos in drinking water pipes. So, can you tell us a bit more about that?

Speaker 3 1:19:13

Sure. And it's a little bit broader than that because it's all ingestion, and some ingestion can be breathing that you then swallow. Or there's a number of ways to have some ingestion. The um the big issue that that historically has been, as you're right, has been uh in the piping, in the water piping. And it first came out in in um 1970s, early 1970s, there's a problem with Duluth, Minnesota, and Lake Superior, and people were doing all types of stuff trying to figure out because by then the inhal inhalation of asbestos was big litigation, and everyone was looking for here's another pathway, so to speak. And so there's a bunch of studies doing this one called asbestos fibers in drinking water by Cummins out of the uh UK in May of 1983, was meant to shut it down. It basically he did everything he could, and I'm I'm in the process of looking at it, but I haven't looked at the whole thing. But the conclusion said there's there's almost a zero chance of any damages arising from inhalation or arising from ingestion of asbestos. Um and the U.S. had a similar article about the same time frame. Um and there'd been some testing at the University of Cincinnati in the United States in 1982 that I do not have yet. I'm aware of the testing that took place, that also supposedly came out with a similar result. Well, over the years, that result hasn't really held water. There have been all types of issues. There are lots of articles that say otherwise. The town of Regina, Newfoundland, Newfoundland currently has a uh resolution up to replace their drinking water um uh pipes. Uh the drinking water pipes, you the issue is typically in aggressive water and after about 50 years. And so the issue is when do you get to that type of time frame and and how do you test? And that's what's going on right now. And I said I know that you guys have talked to Julian, who has been very helping me. He's he's in Canada, uh a former journalist, about my age, and and he's been looking at this issue for a while. So he's been downloading stuff to me that I can then compare with what I have, so that when I put a thesis out there uh by the end of this month or thereabouts, it can be fully fully almost to the point where it can be published. And then we'll look at seeing what we do that way and how we get it out there. But at the very least, it'll be in my blog and be advertised in terms of that. This is a serious issue right now, uh, especially when you look at the amount of gastrointestinal cancers that have gone up and and the potential options and all that type of good stuff. And part of this is very medical. What's the pathways? If you inhale it but then swallow it, can it go through the gastrointestine? If you take it other ways, you drink it, might it actually end up in the inhalation? There's there's all those types of issues which are beyond me. What what I'm trying to do is get the information out there for the history buffs that can look at it and then make the call with current science as to uh as to what needs to be done. I know that Arthur Frank, who's a uh scientist who I have a lot of respect for, um, although he's typically known to do plenty of expert stuff in the United States, so only half the science believe him. He believes strongly that the government uh and industry has just been playing this issue much too long, and it's time to put it to rest in terms of let's let's get it out there, so to speak. At the same time, there's a Russian who has done some work uh who I do not know, but he claims that in fact it's also a question of government and then plaintiffs uh in terms of fooling around with it. So they all agree that the governments are a problem, and then they point the fingers at each other. And my hope is by getting this together, we can at least get some sort of information and everyone has the background and and then their opinions could be at least based on the same facts, which should be a good thing.

Speaker 1 1:23:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And look, I look, I find it fascinating that you know we're talking about not really knowing or or having information that's you know not that clear, even though asbestos is one of the most researched topics in the world. You know, we're talking a huge amount of research has gone into asbestos, and yet we still don't know and understand all of the pathways, um, which just tells us that we do still need to keep on researching in this space. Now, um, if anybody's listening out there and they really want to hear a bit more about the story of asbestos in drinking water pipes, I do recommend that you listen to one of our previous podcasts. We were talking to Julian Branch, um, and it was fabulous, really, really fascinating information. Um, but for now, we've finally come to the end of our podcast.

Barriers That Block Real Prevention

Speaker 1 1:24:03

Um, before we leave, I have one final question, and that is that when we were talking earlier, you did mention that there are a number of barriers that you've identified to reduce um exposure to asbestos in the future. And this is outside of the latency period, which we've already discussed. But can you tell us a little bit about what you think those barriers are and if there's any way that we might be able to surmount those?

Speaker 3 1:24:25

I I think that's the political side of it, because it's money versus politics and versus science. You need to have good science, you need to then have the politics be willing to say that this is enough of a problem that we should address it. Too many people are dying. And then if you do it on a world approach, because otherwise you're just each floating in your own directions, if you do it on a world approach, you coordinate things. And asbestos has just been one of those if in fact, if you look at the court system in the United States dealing with uh asbestos, there's opinions that say this is nuts, even from the judges, where it's just like there's no way to control this. Yeah, I think you have to go through the politics side, you need to get the major politicians outside, you need to get some budgets, you need to do some stuff like that. And it can't be an organization that has baggage. Right now the EPA does a lot of stuff, they have a lot of baggage. Um, and and so the same with some of the others where they have not been consistent, they have clearly diminished what some of the facts are. And and I don't mean it necessarily intelligently enough intentionally, but it doesn't matter to the person whether it's intentional intentional or not. If in fact you can get asbestos problems with blue asbestos on the beaches north of Chicago, it should be addressed appropriately instead of telling someone, we'll go back and deal with it, you know, if it's a problem in the future. Having having so much having dumped 600,000 tons of asbestos over a six-year time frame right next to the water. So I I think the barriers are administrative barriers, political barriers, money barriers, the same type of thing that the world deals with all the time. And and you just need to get up there and be the one they're listening to.

Speaker 1 1:26:16

Yeah, and I completely understand where you're going. You absolutely concur. I agree with all of those. They're barriers we see far too often. Um, I'd like to pass over to my teammates and find out a little bit more about what they think. And I know Rob and Jason have both got experience with trying to um speak um about you know, generating exactly what you were talking about, you know, somewhere where you've got people who know about asbestos, who can give advice, who don't have the baggage. Um, and it's something that we've been trying for some time. So we're going to pass over to Rob first. Rob, what are your comments here?

Speaker 5 1:26:52

Yeah, barriers. Hey, once you uh start working in the asbestos space, you come across them straight away, pretty much. And honestly, you'll just try and learn to navigate those set barriers. And I think the first one starts off with knowledge, because a lot of people don't understand what asbestos is, or you know, we've had comments like, oh, that's a thing of the past, oh, that used to be around years ago, but it's all gone now. Um, then you've got the next layer of barrier, which is people that may have been exposed to it years ago, you know, when I used to work on site years ago, when I used to do this, uh, it never hurt anybody. But when you actually dig into conversations with them, because I years ago surveyed a number of uh old people's homes and um some really interesting people and what they've done in their lives, and they talk to you and say, Hey, you know about asbestos, you say, Yeah, I know about asbestos, and you have the conversation, and then you know they go that doesn't hurt anyone, and then before you know it, often they say, Oh, I know somebody who died of a of a mesothelioma, asbestos related diseases, and so on and so forth. And you say, That's due to exposure, so that is a real barrier at first, is to get over that sort of level of barriers so people do understand that this is still with us and still there. So I think that's a key barrier. Getting enough support then from those people to lobby government is the key, I think, personally, and that's why I do a lot of work um with FAMANZ and other organisations and HASANZ as well to try and raise that level of awareness and bridge the gap between them now understanding and government taking that on board and having to do something about it. Because unless you've got that, you know, there's always a new thing to take up you know, media interest that we've seen over the first last few news cycles. It there's always something filling it. So I think um the big barrier for us is just to get that knowledge out there, let people know that we do have answers to these questions, we have ways to fix this, it's not insurmountable. Um, and talking to politicians as well, and you know, they're interested in fixing things, but obviously there's always a funding question, so going with answers to those questions I think is also uh a barrier as well. But there there's a series that I see, definitely.

Speaker 7 1:29:16

Over to you, Jace. I've come across many barriers in my years in the asbestos industry. Uh ignorance is one of them. I've been working it for years, it's it's never gonna it it's not gonna bother me. Uh I've been eating that stuff when I was an apprentice, never harmed me. And then you've got other barriers like cost barriers. Because when you do some removal within within a room, all you all you get is a room, a clean room. Uh you don't get a nice shiny building. Uh so they don't actually see the value for money. And I think going forward, we've all talked about it, it's all about education, warning against the dangers of asbestos exposure, uh, and how we can educate other people. So, for example, somebody having asbestos awareness training, they go around to a friend's house and they're doing some DIY. Oh, hold on a minute. Is that asbestos? That soffit that you're just about to drill into, is it asbestos? So the more we make people aware that knowledge gets passed on, and as that knowledge gets passed on, then lives will be saved.

Speaker 1 1:30:25

Yep, couldn't agree more. And for me, if I had to say the biggest barrier, it would be fear. Um, and the reason for that is fear is paralysing. And you say the word asbestos, and if you say it in polite company, people often take a step back, and it is a scary term, and I think that the more we can talk about this and talk about how to manage it and how to make it less scary, the better the response will be, and the more people want to think about how to prevent exposure rather than just you know closing their eyes, closing their ears, and hoping it just disappears. Um, because that's sadly not how it works. But all right.

Tribute And How To Get In Touch

Speaker 1 1:31:02

Thank you so much, Marty. It's been a real pleasure talking to you, and thank you so much as well for being so generous, sharing your information, being somebody that will be able to connect with so many other groups who really, you know, can go onto your blog, they can find out information, they can actually, you know, experience the breadth of the asbestos issue without having to trawl through rigid, very boring articles. So we really appreciate that you've done that and we really appreciate you coming on today. Now, before I leave, I'd just like to mention that we unfortunately lost one of our longest ever surviving mesothelioma patients two weeks ago. Her name was Leonie Metcalf. She was co-founder and um vice chair of the MSAA Trust. Um, it was a huge loss to us because she had been our Meso warrior for a very, very long time. Um, and she was just the person that would always want to help others. And as soon as she was diagnosed, she went straight into battle and she had been connecting with people for the last five and a half years and making sure that nobody suffered by having a diagnosis and having to face it alone. Um, so uh we'd like to just honour Leonie's memory and um rest in peace, Leonie. You're a real champion.

Speaker 3 1:32:22

My condolences a that's sad. Thank you.

Speaker 1 1:32:27

Okay. So this comes to the end of our podcast. Thank you very much for listening, everybody. We would also like to look out for any new guests and stories about asbestos or any other environmental issues. It doesn't have to just be asbestos. Please contact the team if you're interested. You can contact us at our website and also our um email address. Our email address is asbestos still kills all oneword at gmail.com. And thank you so much.

Speaker 7 1:32:54

Yeah, so finally you can access this uh podcast uh on the usual streaming podcast apps, Spotify, uh also on our YouTube channel. I'd like to thank you all for joining us today on the asbestos still kills podcast, and uh we hope to see you in the next episode. So thank you very much, and thank you, Marty.

Speaker 3 1:33:18

My pleasure, Jay.

Speaker 7 1:33:20

Thanks. Bye, thanks everyone.

Speaker 4 1:33:22

Cheers.

Speaker 7 1:33:26

Thank you for listening to the Asbestos Still Kills Podcast. Presented by Robert McAllister, famanz director, Dr. Terry Amberry, the Environmental Innovation Centre, EIC, Jason Mulner, Asbestos Management Consultants Limited, EMC. For more information on the Asbestos Stillkills podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com For more information on the Messiatelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust please go to www.msatrust.org.nz Thank you For more information also to read and accept the podcast disclaimer before viewing or listening to this podcast go to www.asbestosstillkills.com or contact us by email at asbestos stillkills at gmail dot com. Thank you.