Episode 7: Asbestos in Children's Play Sand - Europe

Asbestos has been found in Children's Play Sand in Europe! 

Are children being exposed to this deadly carcinogen unknowingly? Are Parents aware their children are at risk of asbestos exposure due to asbestos being present in Children's Toys!

David De Vreede and Richard Clevers, both based in the Netherlands investigate this worrying development which is ongoing across Europe and the World.

David De Vreede is an advisor and project manager at the Expertise Center for Asbestos & Fibers.

David works as an advisor and project manager at the Netherlands-based Expertise Centre for Asbestos & Fibres. In addition to this non-profit role, he is the owner and managing director of Fiber Filtration AirCon BV, a company specializing in air filters and air purification systems. He also serves as a municipal councilor and party chairman in my hometown of Almere.

Richard Clevers is an investigative journalist for DPG Media, working for major publications like the Algemeen Dagblad (AD) and the Brabant-based newspapers Brabants Dagblad (BD). He is known for high-impact, data-driven journalism on consumer safety, poverty, and systemic societal issues.

Presenters:

Robert McAllister - FAMANZ Director

Dr. Terri-Ann Berry - Environmental Innovation Centre (EIC); Associate Professor, AUT, School of Future Environments

Jason Milner - Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd (AMC)

Website: www.asbestosstillkills.com

Email: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com

The Asbestos Still Kills Podcast ® is Sponsored by:

Asbestos Management Consultants Ltd - Expertise you can trust

https://asbestosmanagementconsultants.co.nz/

The Environmental Innovation Centre

https://www.environmental-innovation.nz/

For information on asbestos-related diseases or to contact the Mesothelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust please go to:

https://www.msaatrust.org.nz/

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Don't forget to subscribe for future podcasts.

More Information is available at www.asbestostillkills.com

Contact us via email at: asbestosstillkills@gmail.com 

Transcript

Speaker 7 0:01

Asbestos still kills there are still toys with asbestos in the stores right now. We have twelve products tested and seven of them contained asbestos.

Speaker 5 0:28

Asbestos in makeup products in the United States. And at the time we found asbestos in the makeup products of a company who was manufacturing this especially for children. Indeed, asbestos was found in it in the Netherlands as well. There was a lot of asbestos in the children's make up in the same products as in which they found it in the United States. Because the talcum was actually containing asbestos, mostly tremolite asbestos.

Speaker 4 1:10

Does the neighbour's sand contain tasbestos? It might not, but are you gonna take that chance as a parent? Episode seven. Asbestos in children's playsand. In Europe and the Netherlands with David De Vreede and Richard Clevers. Thank you.

Welcome And Why This Matters

Speaker 4 1:52

Welcome to the Asbestos Still Kills Podcast. My name is Jason Milner.

Speaker 6 1:57

I'm Terry Ann Berry. And I'm Robert McAllister.

Speaker 4 2:03

In this podcast, we'll be discussing the impacts of the discovery of asbestos in children's place and by discussing how this has impacted other communities across Europe, response from the media overseas, and variations in the approach by EU regulators. So we have two special guests today. Welcome to the Asbestos Still Kills Podcast.

Speaker 5 2:36

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1 2:39

Thank you so much for joining us. Just by way of a bit of an introduction, David in his daily life works as an entrepreneur in the field of air purification and air quality. Additionally, he is a municipal councillor and party leader in the city of Elmer and previously served as alderman and deputy mayor in the city of now, this is going to be tiki for me, Leolistad. Did I get that vaguely right?

Speaker 5 3:03

Yeah, you're getting it right.

Speaker 1 3:04

Okay, lovely. Where he was responsible for environmental and asbestos supervision and enforcement, amongst other things. Furthermore, David has been active regarding the subject of asbestos for 11 years. He started as a technical advisor at the Committee for Asbestos Victims and together with several asbestos experts, founded the Expertise Centre for Asbestos and Fibres in 2020. The Expertise Centre became particularly well known for its discovery of asbestos in makeup products from well-known cosmetic brands and in talcum powder of a major manufacturer. In his private life, David is married and the proud father of his newborn son. Welcome, David.

Speaker 3 3:43

Thank you. And on to you, Richard. Just for everybody's benefit, Richard Clevers is an investigative journalist in the Netherlands. He works at a large group of newspapers, all owned by a media company called DPG Media. His recent work focused on the discovery of asbestos in decorative play sands, products across Europe. Richard and David were triggered by reports from Australia and New Zealand about school closures due to asbestos contamination. Richard found similar products in the Netherlands and had them tested by an accredited asbestos laboratory. When contamination in multiple products was confirmed, commotion arose throughout Europe. Regulators are still dealing with that, and new recalls are published frequently.

Speaker 1 4:45

So now we've managed the lovely introductions. I've been so excited about this podcast, I have to say. We get to ask you questions, we get to learn a lot more about you. And we're going to start with a question I'm going to throw to David. Can you

David’s Path Into Asbestos Work

Speaker 1 4:57

Tell us a bit more about yourself, your background? And in particular, I'm quite fascinated by the expertise center for asbestos and fibers.

Speaker 5 5:05

Sure. So my background is very diverse in daily life. I have a company in air purification, which is mostly not asbestos. How do you say that? Mostly not in asbestos, but mostly in chemicals, fine dust particles, stuff like that. We supply air purification systems, air filters. Actually, here my background, you see a lot of boxes filled with air filters. Uh, because I'm speaking to you from my office here in the Netherlands. Then when it comes to my asbestos background, started actually 11 years ago. Because I was very how do you say it? Because I was specialized in air quality and air purification, I got into contact with the Committee for Asbestos Victims in the Netherlands. And this is actually a legal group. They are supporting asbestos fixed victims legally because they help them with getting compensation, financial compensation, and they needed someone with a technical background. And during the years before, I had been learning a lot about asbestos, and I thought it was a very interesting area of expertise to go into. I quickly learned that you can learn about asbestos every day for many years, I think until in your 90s, because there is always something new to learn about asbestos from the different kinds of expertise. So, medically, legally, technically, there are so many angles on which you can approach the subject of asbestos. And after a few years at the Committee for Asbestos Victims, we actually heard about the story of asbestos in makeup products in the United States. And so, as a technical advisor from the Committee for Asbestos Victims, I actually approached the investigator in America who is a geologist, a well-known geologist called Sean Fitzgerald. And I approached him and I asked him about his research, and he was willing to share all his knowledge with us. I approached a Dutch television program, and together we decided to investigate this issue in the Netherlands. And at the time, we found asbestos in the makeup products of a company who was manufacturing this, especially for children, which made it very shocking, of course. There was a lot of asbestos in the children's makeup, in the same products as in which they found it in the United States. So this was a big issue in the Netherlands. Uh, there were recalls. The Netherlands actually contacted the European Union and uploaded it into Safety Gate, the system for the European Union to share about dangerous products, and the products were recalled in many different EU countries, which costed this company a lot of money, and actually, in the end, they stopped using talcum as an ingredient because the talcum was actually containing asbestos, mostly tramolite asbestos. After this issue arose, the Committee for Asbestos Victims said this was not really the kind of work which was done by the committee. And me and some other asbestos experts said we actually need a center of expertise for asbestos in the Netherlands, which is not a part of the government, which is not a part of a market company, a commercial company, but really an NGO, a non-profit organization. And that's when we founded the center the Center of Expertise for Asbestos and Fibers. And we contacted different asbestos experts to join forces in the Center of Expertise. And so we have medical specialists, we have a geologist, , we have a technical specialist, we have a legal expert. So, and with all these kinds of expertise we can actually advise governments or media outlets or newspapers on asbestos without having , how do you say that, commercial benefits from it or being part of the government.

Speaker 1 9:30

It's such a fascinating path to get that non-governmental organization, that non-for-profit organization. And I don't think we've got anything similar in New Zealand. Um, I have a small charity, but it doesn't quite work in the same way. It's more about supporting people with asbestos-related disease. So I love what you've done. It's amazing. But I do need to ask you one quick question before we move on to Richard, because you mentioned Safety Gate, and again, what a fantastic concept.

Safety Gate And Why It Fails

Speaker 1 9:59

Can you tell us just a little bit more about Safety Gate?

Speaker 5 10:01

And I see Richard smiling already. Safety Gate is actually the concept is pretty good. You have a we are a single market economy, the European Union. So we share a European market with European standards, product standards, and the system is based on the fact that when a product has an error or a hazard in it, this can be many kinds of things, hazardous substances, but also an electrical wiring problem or something like that. And when it's this is found in one of the EU member states, they can inform Safety Gate, which is a program of the European Commission, and all the other EU member states know that there is a problem with this product in our single market economy. But in practice, it's actually not working because many products are not uploaded into the system, which is a huge problem. And even governments, especially the Belgian government, is complaining about the system and that it's not working and they want it to work because actually the concept is a great idea, but it's not working in practice.

Speaker 1 11:14

Such a shame, because it does. It sounds absolutely brilliant, but I suppose if people aren't adding the data, then you yeah, that's such a shame. Well, thank you very much for explaining that. And now I'd like to hear a little bit from Richard.

Richard’s Investigation Begins

Speaker 1 11:25

So, Richard, it's now your turn. We'd like to know a bit you about yourself, but also about how you met David. And also fascinated because you've got a bit of an interest in talk. So please tell us about that.

Speaker 7 11:34

Yes, well, as an investigative journalist, I can spend more time than an average journalist on news items, which usually are published the next day or even the same day. So I I have a little bit more time to really dive into an item. I met David, I heard him on the radio once because David is often in the news when something with asbestos occurs. He was talking on the radio, and I wanted to talk to him about an actually private thing. I had asbestos in my own house on the outside, and I wanted to talk with him about that. We were talking, David told me about the Talc in makeup. Um he believes that it is still a problem, and we were both interested in doing more research into this makeup item. So we were talking about maybe doing some investigations on makeup again. Then the item in Australia and New Zealand occurred. So we saw on the news, David once sent me an article that schools were even closed because of the play sand with asbestos in it. And I was looking at that news and I was trying to find out what kind of sand is that, and I found recalls in Australia with products with sand in it, and I was trying to find out if this sand was also sold in Europe or the Netherlands. And at first I couldn't find it because when you type the name of the product you won't find it. But when you search by image, you can find more because a lot of products were different brands are actually looking exactly the same. When I found the same products, which looked exactly the same, we decided to buy them and have them tested in a laboratory. And when we found out that indeed asbestos was found in it in the Netherlands as well, we were immediately convinced that this should be published very soon, and we we I wrote the the story quite quickly, and then a lot of things happened in the Netherlands and even in Europe.

Speaker 1 14:00

So the play sand instant really, is that something that you've been I mean, we're we're gonna talk more about this in the future, but is that something that you've been focused on quite heavily for the last few months?

Speaker 7 14:13

Yes, it's now becoming a little less, especially from I think December when you when you guys found asbestos in the sand, I think that was November last year, until the last few months I've been almost non-stop been busy with asbestos in sand.

Speaker 6 14:31

Sounds a bit like us.

Speaker 7 14:34

Yes, and it was very interesting because not only the fact that it was sold in the Netherlands as well and throughout Europe, but also after that, when like David told about safety gates, the the system that would probably it sounds perfect when we find asbestos products in the Netherlands. You want to Germany, Austria, all the European countries that they should get it off the shelves. The products we found with asbestos in it, a lot of them are still not in Safety Gate. I can't explain it to my readers or the public why are they not in Safety Gate? Uh it doesn't function. And they have found products in other European countries as well with asbestos in it, and you can only find them on the website in, for example, the regulator in France. So we won't know about it in the Netherlands. You have to look at all those different websites, so Safety Gate is not working.

Speaker 6 15:34

Yes, and that's what I'm also publishing about the last few months.

Testing Methods And What They Found

Speaker 4 15:43

So the timescales then from hearing about the asbestos sand over in New Zealand, Australia from our original podcast, when did you get the testing done and what testing did you have done? Richard, David, maybe Richard first?

Speaker 6 15:59

Oh we had the testing done in January. January. Yes.

Speaker 7 16:07

And we published in I think February, so very soon after we got the results. And before we did the testing, I we also had contact with with you guys. I talked to Robert about how the testing had been done in in your country, and I spoke to my laboratory about it. They tried to do the same thing. So when we found out that there was asbestos in the sand, we immediately decided to publish. And of course we warned the the sellers and we asked them to react in the story.

Speaker 4 16:45

And were you finding what sort of what types of asbestos was it tremolite, chrysotile?

Speaker 7 16:51

Uh tremolite and also in some products chrysotile. Uh and we did in the beginning 12 products. We had 12 products tested and seven of them contained asbestos. Three of them in high percentages, the two to five percent, in the category two to five percent, and the other ones were in the category below two percent.

Speaker 6 17:19

It's one point zero point one to two percent that category.

Speaker 4 17:28

So did you initially get the testing done under polarized light microscopy? And then what did you do? SEM or TEM electron microscopy?

Speaker 7 17:36

At first we did PLM, and after we heard that it's also good to do SEM. We also did that in the second.

Speaker 4 17:50

So these were sand products that were sold to the public, to the children, and it was play sand, was it like a kinetic play sand as well? Different types of sand?

Speaker 7 18:00

We ourselves didn't find it in in a kinetic sand or or sticky sand, only in the loose mineral sand products, like the art stuff that kids throw sand in a bottle or on a painting. But later on, a lot of companies of course decided to test their own products, and a lot of laboratories did their own testing, and then it was also found in kinetic not kinetic sand, but sticky sand, but in very low concentrations.

Speaker 4 18:33

So, would you like to expand on this, please, David, and just tell us communications with the Dutch regulators, please.

Regulator Responses Across Europe

Speaker 5 18:43

Yeah, that's actually a very difficult thing to do, discussing it with regulators in the Netherlands because it's like we actually the interesting thing is when when the news was published by Richard's newspaper, which is a very well-known newspaper in the Netherlands. At the beginning, the first government who approached us, because Richard quoted the Center of Expertise and quoted me personally. I also had some television interviews in the first few days, and then you would expect that the Dutch enforcement agencies, the Cons er Protection Agency, would contact you. I even approached them to work together, but they didn't want to work together. Actually, the first government who approached us was the Belgian government. Uh, as Terri Ann told us or told you guys in my introduction, I also work as a municipal councillor for one of the Dutch political parties. And I was called by one of our parliament employees, so one of our support employees in the Dutch national parliament. And he asked me, so he called me and he asked, , Am I allowed to give your phone n ber to the assistant of the Belgian minister for cons er protection? So I said, Yeah, sure, that's not a problem. So a few minutes later, I was called by his aide, by his assistant, and he actually told me that they were already having a crisis meeting with the minister, with the enforcement agencies in Belgi , and they wanted our advice on how to handle the situation. So, actually, the Belgian government was very open-minded. And , a few days later, on Sunday, , the Belgian minister called me himself and spoke with me for an hour because he wanted to know everything about it. Also, technically, he really tried to understand the whole issue and where it was coming from. He didn't only want to handle the situation with the products in the stores, he actually wanted to know how this toxic mineral is ending up in children's play toys in place, and how is it actually technically possible that there's asbestos in this product? And as a politician myself, I'm actually very enthusiastic about politicians who try to understand something technically because most politicians and government officials they actually don't have a technical background and they are not interested in it. So, and the Belgian government handled the situation in the first few weeks actually very well. They asked all the companies to stop selling the products as long as they were doing research into the products, because their enforcement agency bought a lot of products and tested them in a actually in a Dutch laboratory, because Dutch laboratories are mostly working to higher standards than the Belgian ones. And that's mostly because here in the Netherlands we have been working with electron microscopy for many years already, and in most EU countries, it's a new thing because the EU made a new asbestos regulation and the new asbestos guideline for the European Union. Is telling that all EU countries should work with electron microscopy starting in 2029. So for many EU countries, it's pretty new. They're introducing electromicroscopy at the moment. But in the Netherlands, I'm not quite sure, but I think we have been working with it most since 2012 or 2014. So there's a lot of expertise in the Netherlands with laboratory techniques, and also the laboratory which Richard has been using for this investigation is also the laboratory that supported our research into asbestos in Talc and makeup products in 2018 and 2020. So they have a background in not only testing building materials but testing loose powders in which the asbestos is actually naturally occurring instead of put into a process.

Speaker 4 22:59

Well, I think it's that the regulators embraced it. And when we initially found out about the asbestos in the sand through the podcast with Rob and also Terri Ann, we knew that we needed to tell people around the world that this was going on, and Rob was very proactive going to the regulators. Do you want to tell us about when you went to the regulators, Rob, and the initial reaction from the New Zealand regulators?

Speaker 3 23:26

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, similar to yourself, Richard, when I heard about it instantaneously, because this was obviously originated from Australia. When I heard about it in the podcast, I was alarmed and went away from the podcast saying this is a real problem. So went to our regulator WorkSafe in in New Zealand because did a similar exercise. Went online, checked out these play sound products, realized they're all being imported from the same country. And though they have different product names, they were the same product as far as I could see when I did that investigation. So instantly went to our regulator, which I have to say, like yourself, David, it was a great response initially. It went up the chain through WorkSafe to the minister's office. Everybody was on board with actually getting on top of this problem. Then our regular actually went over and discussed it with the Australian regulators, which were the product and this initiated the whole sort of incident, but they'd been sort of sitting and trying to go through testing, and there were several other challenges that they faced, but they were much slower to act because different country structures. And I suppose from that perspective, and hearing from what you're saying, I mean, when you talk wider around the European governments, how was that story for you then expanded across Europe? Because it seemed really, really positive at first to get on top of it, but it seems to have sort of waned a bit. So, from your perspective, David, what more can be done with the European governments and what what's the challenge there?

Speaker 5 25:07

I think in the early days there was it was spreading really fast through Europe, the news. Because mostly news from the Netherlands or Belgi actually spreads over pretty soon because we speak the same language. So it's a little bit like Australia and New Zealand. So I think already the same day, Belgi news agencies also told the public about this problem. And as I said, the Belgian government was much more proactive than the Dutch government at the beginning. After that, I think media outlets in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland, in Ireland, in the United Kingdom, they all picked it up and wrote articles about it, mostly online articles, but also some television reports. So, yeah, I have to say, the first few weeks I didn't have the time to do my normal job anymore because almost every day I was giving interviews to different kinds of media, also in the Netherlands. But after that, it became a bit more quiet, and I think the most difficult thing was that the Dutch Enforcement Agency, so the Cons er Protection Agency, together with the National Institute for the Environment, a governmental institute, they started their own research into the

Percent Limits Versus Real Exposure

Speaker 5 26:29

issue. They tested around 100 products, 30 of them, around 30, so one-third, contained actually asbestos, but underneath the how do you say that, the exposure limit, or the how would you say that in English, the can you help me, Terrien? Yeah, trace. Exactly. So which is actually in the European Union at 0.1%. The problem is that they put it at 0.1%, but EU regulation actually says that when it's below 0.1% but still posing a risk, then it's also bent in the EU. So to know this, you should start a scientific investigation, like the investigation which Terrien is doing in New Zealand. But the Dutch National Institute for Public Health, they choose to calculate the risk. And I'm not a big fan of calculating risks, I'm a big fan of actually measuring risks. But because they don't have the budget and they don't have the people to do it, they actually calculated the risk. And their conclusion was that it was not a big risk, that you should really use it for many, many, many, many, many years to get sick from it, and the risk of getting ill was very low, according to them. But I don't actually agree with it because you know a percentage is actually not that interesting. To me, scientifically, it's interesting to know what the amount of fibers into the products are, and as we saw in the past with asbestos in talcum , which is a little bit of the same issue actually, because it's naturally occurring, real mill, and when you put it into a mill, the production process is actually grinding the minerals, and when you have a long fiber, you are actually grinding it into millions and millions of smaller fibers. So the thing is that maybe there is a low percentage of asbestos within a rock, within a mineral product, but let's say there is like maybe like 0.5%, which is a little bit above the threshold. When you are grinding it into millions and millions of fibers and using the product, there are still probably a lot of fibers coming into the air. So saying that the percentage is low, so the risk is low, that's actually a conclusion that you cannot make. I really think that governments should test it, but really test it, like measuring it, like you were doing in New Zealand. Doing air sampling, doing real-life testing. I think that's the only way to see how high the risk of exposure is.

Speaker 2 29:24

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Speaker 3 31:11

Yeah. No, absolutely agree because that was our initial standpoint, knowing it's there, but then obviously trying to work back on the associated risk for the product was key. And that's what we've tried to get across to our sort of regulators as well. And but we've been fortunate that our regulators have some very competent and technical people involved, and they are completely aware

Public Reaction Plus Amazon Problems

Speaker 3 31:34

of that. But I suppose going to you, Richard, a little bit more around the response from the public, based on your media reports, what was the public response that you got? And then when we go through that, can you also tell us a little bit about Amazon and their response as well?

Speaker 7 31:52

Yeah, well, like David said, at first the the response was very huge. I mean, and not only the media was responding and other outlets, , TV programs and newspapers were publishing about it, but also the public was worried. I got, of course, emails and phone calls, and a lot of daycare centers got their sand and put it behind the doors, so they would didn't want any children to play with it anymore. Schools were taking measures, and also, of course, the sellers they were taking measures. A lot of online stores decided to, for safety, get all the sand out of their platforms. After the first storm, it became a little bit well, the attention slowly got got away, and I found the same products again on different stores. Also, the stores that promised not to sell sand with not to sell any sand anymore. I could still find it, and also Amazon, which initially took back and recalled the products that I that I found. They also sold products that were already recalled. I found them on their platform and I warned them, of course, and I I told them, Hey, what are you going to do about it? And they really fast got it off their platform again. I could see that after the first media storm, it was not taken that seriously anymore. And I think that also that the calculations which David just told about played a big role in that. The Belgian government, which was so fast with responding and getting all the products out of the shelves and warning people so fast, they made a list with all products that contained asbestos, were tested with asbestos. And when you want to find that list now, you will see that this isn't updated for a long time anymore. So they don't pay attention to it anymore. And that's strange because the problem hasn't been solved. I mean, we have the calculations now, and you can discuss about the value of those calculations because I would also like to add that in that investigation products that have been tested mostly contain less than 0.1% asbestos, and in our investigations we found products with m a lot more than that. So in in those products, we can ass e that the risk is also higher, and that is not calculated. But besides that, you can discuss about it, but the problem hasn't been solved. I mean, there are still toys with asbestos in the stores right now. I'm quite sure about that, because they are not tested, there's no obligation yet. Yeah, they say there is obligation, but no one is keeping an eye on it. So I think that a lot of products now in the stores are not tested yet, and they might contain asbestos. And it's strange after this media storm that is nothing really changed. I think they are still talking behind the scenes in Europe about regulations and what to do and what should the new limit be.

Speaker 6 35:24

But until now, the situation is still the same.

Speaker 3 35:31

Which which is pretty consistent with what we're seeing as well in other parts of the world and around jurisdictions. It that concern is there, and we'll talk a little bit more later on around some of the additional research that we're doing. But from your research perspective, we know where you started with that. Is there any ongoing research that you're currently doing at the moment relating to the issue?

Speaker 7 35:54

Well,

Finding The Source And Factory Links

Speaker 7 35:55

, I still found products that are already recalled in one country popping up in the other country. So I'm trying to warn other journalists in other countries about that. The Guardian recently published story about products in the UK with asbestos in it, recalled in other countries before that. But me, myself, I I really still want to know where the scent is coming from. So I really would like to know which Chinese companies are making these toys and do they know that there might be asbestos in them? What are they doing about it? Are they warned? How about the people working in those factories? I would really like to go to the source in China, but it's very difficult because the Chinese companies never pick up the phone or answer an email, so that won't help me, so I have to find other ways to find these companies.

Speaker 6 36:51

Any other comments, team, on that?

Speaker 5 36:56

Sure Robert. I I would like to add something on that because the interesting thing is that actually the United Kingdom is still very active. I get articles sent to me by LinkedIn contacts of mine in the United Kingdom almost daily telling about new new recalls. And the interesting thing is that because the United Kingdom is not a member of the European Union anymore, they don't work with the 0.1 limit. They actually say that every product containing asbestos, and it doesn't matter how much or how little there is in it, is just banned in the United Kingdom. So I think they already recalled about 130 products, which is actually compared to other European countries, that's actually an amazing job. And they also found it in completely different products like doorstops and many kinds of products containing scent actually. But even though they are doing a good job, and I think Ireland is copying it because I also see a lot of recalls in Ireland, and I think they get it from the United Kingdom, they just look to their neighbors. But the thing is that you know they are trying and they are doing a good job, but the discussion about this issue should not be about doing recalls, it should be about taking away the source. As Richard said, it's about the source. And for me, scientifically, and for our expertise center, it's not really about which companies, it's about it's about which minerals.

Which Minerals Hide Asbestos

Speaker 5 38:31

And through LinkedIn, we got into contact with a German laboratory who has mineralogy, how do you say that? Geology experts, mineralogy and geology experts, and they actually looked into the into the substances used to create the scent. Because for the cons er, you go into a store or onto a web shop, you see scent on the label, but you actually don't know what the sand is made of. And the German company they found four sources of sand: sand made of plastic particles, which was not containing asbestos, sand made of glass particles, which was also not containing asbestos, sand made of quartz sand, which was mostly containing small amounts of asbestos, and sand made of marble, which was containing high amounts of asbestos. And when we talk about our geology advisor Sean Fitzgerald, he would also tell us that marble is actually very well known for containing mostly tramolite naturally. So it's not something how they say that it's not something strange that asbestos is ending up into sand products made of marble. And this is actually where we should go or where we should talk about also scientifically, and especially legally and with policymakers, because where you want to take away the problem, you should actually regulate the sources. So we should talk about maybe banning certain mineral substances from ending up into cons er products because products like talcum or marble, those are minerals that you cannot create without asbestos. There's always a certain amount of asbestos in these kinds of minerals. It's impossible to create them 100% asbestos-free. So the real question is, are these minerals suitable for cons er products? And our answer would be no.

Speaker 1 40:44

Absolutely, and one of the things I found really frustrating about this, and fascinating what you're saying about marble, because actually that gives us a sort of target group of materials to think about when we're talking about testing. Because I know there's been lots of concern about, well, we can't test every single product that comes in that's been mined, but that gives us some direction. And again, it's banned in New Zealand as well. It's a banned product at any concentration. One of the things that has been bothering me a little bit is that you mentioned doorstops. There's a lot of, well, unless you split the doorstop, unless it breaks, it's low risk. And the same with the toys that are sort of the stretchy toys that you can stretch. But, you know, it doesn't take much, pardon the pan of a stretch, to know that, you know, children can be quite rough with toys and things break. And we we did have a a little flurry of incidences where there was a trend to actually heat those stretchy toys in the microwave to make them more stretchy. Um, and unfortunately, the inevitable happened. And apart from the degree burns, the third-degree burns that children got from it exploding in the microwave, there's also the inevitable that you've suddenly superheated all of this material when it's just gone everywhere. So again, I think need to think and be a bit sensible about ass ing things are low risk because it's contained, knowing that things don't necessarily stay contained, because it's about how we're using them too, isn't it? So I find that quite quite an interesting point. So just on to another question for you, David. Do you think it's actually effective for governments to keep on to continue testing and issuing recalls? Or is there actually something else that we need to do? Is there a different approach that we need to look at to prevent asbestos containing products coming into our countries? Is it anything that you would suggest that you think might be more fail-safe?

Beyond Recalls: Preventing Imports

Speaker 5 42:34

I think it's an important part of your enforcement, but when you ask me, it's actually the last step into enforcing your regulation. So it starts with the companies. So my advice also in the Dutch media was to importers or distributors or manufacturers of these products, I actually advised them to stop using minerals. And especially minerals which can contain asbestos naturally. And this is all very well doc ented. We know which minerals are containing asbestos. And I told them, because on the internet, when you look a little bit on the internet, my wife actually found it on the internet. There are many recipes for creating play sand with alternatives based on plant-based alternatives. So flour or corn or rice, all these kinds of plant-based products can be used to make playcent. So, you also see it with talcum e because talcum has such bad publicity the last few years because of tremolite contamination. We see here in the Netherlands many talcum products being substituted by corn or cornstarch or rice starch, for instance, even baby powder made from cornstarch or or rice starch, which is actually a very good thing. When it comes to Of course, I'm in contact with our members of national parliaments from my own political party, and they actually are sending a few proposals to the Dutch parliament probably this week about creating better regulations in the European Union based on our advice. And we actually told them that the EU and the Netherlands has very good regulation on asbestos, which is put into products on purpose, like building materials or industrial products. But when it comes to naturally occurring asbestos, there there is no regulation. Actually, before we had the EU regulation, we had Dutch regulation, which was banning all kinds of asbestos, but then the Dutch regulation a few years ago was substituted by the EU regulation, which only tells that asbestos, which is put into products on purpose, is banned in Europe. So when it comes to mineral products, the regulation is not clear about it. In cosmetics and in toys, it's completely banned, also when it's naturally occurring, but in building materials it's not. In gravel, it's not. In Austria, they are having a huge problem at the moment with gravel coming from mines in Eastern Austria, which contain up to 50% asbestos in the gravel, creating huge exposure. So I thought our members of parliament we need stricter regulation on naturally occurring asbestos in Europe. Also, many European countries contain a lot of naturally occurring asbestos. In Central Europe, in the Alps, in Southern Europe, countries like Italy and Spain, there are many areas in Europe having naturally occurring asbestos. Also, we need to expand safety gate, it needs to work. So we also advised the Belgian minister, we advised him, and he is trying to change it in Europe, to work together with other European countries to create a safety gate system which is working, and also to approach other countries in the world who are having an asbestos ban, like Australia, New Zealand, Japan, the United Kingdom, South Korea, and ask them to become a member of this safety gate system. So when products, for instance, in New Zealand are found to contain asbestos, we should know in Europe. And when we all work together in one digital system telling each other about products containing asbestos, we can work together on enforcing our asbestos bands. So this is also something we really need. And at last, there the last thing we advised is for at the moment, it's like, and I think it's in it's in all countries, even in a country like Australia with very tight border control. Companies are allowed to certify their products as asbestos free themselves. They can say, My product is asbestos free, I put a doc ent on it telling it's asbestos free, and it can be imported into a country. When it comes to products which are likely to contain asbestos, so for instance, products which are heated up, you know, an iron or a hairdryer or industrial products, but also mineral products like natural stone, talcum , marble, as I said, other minerals. So all products which are likely to contain asbestos coming from countries, especially with without an asbestos ban, should be tested by the companies and should be proven to be asbestos-free or below the exposure limit. And we want a system, we advise a system that is obliging these importers and these manufacturers to prove that their products are asbestos-free by testing it through accredited laboratories in Europe or in other, let's say, asbestos civilized countries.

Speaker 1 48:13

Yeah, look, I I think that the the whole concept of countries all combining and and joining SafetyGate and making that a really good resource for everyone is fantastic. And certainly something that we'll mention when we speak to any of the sort of government groups here, because it's such a great idea. Um, and it is really interesting, you know, that the conversations about the naturally occurring asbestos. We actually do have two naturally occurring asbestos sort of, what can I say, outcrops. I don't think that's the right terms. I'm sure a geologist would be horrified by that. But anyway, we have one in the South Island and one in the North Island in New Zealand. We never really manufactured it on any big level. We don't have that much, but we know it's there. And we've done some testing, certainly in the South Island, and just looking at the sort of not just the types of asbestos, but we've actually been looking at identifying microorganisms, particularly fungi, that may be able to take a role in bioremediation, because we've been interested in looking at how can we bioremediate really low concentrations in soil? We're not talking about putting a whole, you know, piece of asbestos clad in and watching that disappear, because that's not going to happen. But when you've got the really, really low concentrations, could that work? So we have had some experience in that space. But I absolutely agree when it comes to products and it when it comes to mine products in particular, we do need some reassurance from the supplier and the manufacturer that this is a safe product, especially when it, you know, it's banned in our country. Now, it's brilliant to hear about the other approaches, but I'm I'm also quite keen to hear a bit more from Richard about how the issue has been handled in the Netherlands specifically. So,

The Netherlands Stalls And Traceability

Speaker 1 49:51

what's the current situation there and how well do you think it's been handled?

Speaker 7 49:56

The situation is that after the regulator had published their reports with the calculations that it is probably not that dangerous. Nothing really happened. So there haven't been new recalls in the Netherlands anymore. Though there are recalled products in other countries that are also sold in the Netherlands, but we are not informed about it. But the regulator has said that they think it is necessary that Europe sets new standards, so they want to talk about that 0.1%, and they also said that companies have to test their products now that they know that Sand can contain asbestos, but I don't know if they check that the companies really do that, and I don't know how many companies are really testing their products now. And we should also remember that maybe the Dutch companies, the the the big Dutch sellers with real stores in cities, maybe they will test products when the regulator says so. But we also have these big platforms like Amazon, AliExpress, all those Chinese web shops. There are third-party sellers on that platforms that I doubt if they will test their products if the Netherlands says they they have to, because testing is costs money and they offer their products for very little money. So I think that the prices would go up very fast if they would test their products. I have questions about that, and I also have questions about the traceability because of course I have tested more than 20 products by now. I got it tested in the laboratory, and when I look at those products and I want to see where they come from, I can find stickers on the products, not on the box itself, but on the stickers. That tells us something because I think in other countries you will find other stickers with other companies on that same product. But the names of the companies in China you you can find them, but you can't reach them because they won't reply on an email, so you still don't know where it really comes from. And European rules say that there should also be a European company on the product, so a European party you could ask your questions to or complain, but this is also not working. I I contacted one of those companies, an importer in Germany, and he said, Oh, that's not my product. I think somebody has mentioned my name on it illegally. So he said the the sticker is on it, but it's not really my product. So I don't know if he speaks the truth, but traceability is nowhere. You will never know where the product is really coming from. If you want to set rules for importers and companies, you have to at least know about which companies you are talking. So I think that is a problem, traceability.

Speaker 1 53:07

That's actually pretty appalling, isn't it? I'm I'm quite gobsmacked by that revelation. I I

Who Handles This Well Globally

Speaker 1 53:12

was gonna ask a question around, you know, is there anywhere in the world that we think this has been handled well? And and I will point out I am aware of testing in the UK, so that that that's great. And I'm also aware of some really amazing work in Italy, particularly the University of Torino, looking at, you know, risks around naturally occurring asbestos, so asbestos that's not been put into building products, , but not necessarily around toys, but just generally. Um, I know for myself I've contacted a whole load of colleagues in different countries and said, Oh, what's happening here? Have you got any information? And to be honest, most of them haven't really had any information at all. And and when I've mentioned it, it hasn't really been really taken up with any real gusto or or concern. Um, and that's across Europe and also across America, Mexico. So, yeah, I find that quite surprising. But has anybody found particularly I I want to put this out to Rob and Jase because we haven't heard much from them. And I wondered, have you heard of anywhere in the world where you've gone, absolutely, they've nailed it, they know what they're doing, they found solutions, they're really onto it, or is it all pretty much the same?

Speaker 3 54:20

I suppose I'll go into that. I mean, I've been pretty underwhelmed from what I've seen around the world in some ways. I think that the approach taken by the UK sort of really mimics how I would like to see asbestos dealt with, being that we ban it first, then we allow manufacturers or importers to test it independently, verify the content before it goes back on the shelf. I think, you know, taking that approach is a much more wholesome approach to how we would like to deal with it. Though it still, as we use the term of phrase in New Zealand and other places, is that we don't want to be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. You know, we want to be able to stop it going over the cliff because it's much easier to rectify future health concerns now. Because while we sit and we ponder and we discuss these things, children are playing but this stuff at different levels, and obviously some are getting far higher concentrations based on the amount of play, the type of play, all of those subsequent things that are going on, when we could quite easily say, look, hey, we're ban that until we can prove it's safe to use, which it for me is a much better position to be in. But , I think that's probably the better approach I've seen out there. However, on the other side, again to your point, David, initially, really to handle it well, you've got to go to source, you've got to ban it from source and stop it getting into the distribution chain, really, and that's what I would like to see somewhere. And as soon as we do see that from somebody, I'll be you know very happy and supportive of that type of approach.

Speaker 6 56:11

Chase, do you have any comments to make on that one?

Speaker 4 56:16

Yes, absolutely. So let's be clear the world is still manufacturing and supplying this sand, and it's still been sold in retail outlets, and parents are still allowing their children to play with the sand which could contain asbestos, so this is worldwide. We need to ban it at source, just like what Rob said. So, and we've said it before not all play sand contains asbestos, it's like playing roulette. Does your sand contain does the neighbour's sand contain asbestos? It might not, but are you gonna take that chance as a parent? And there's still recalls. There was a recall a couple of weeks ago with sand toys containing asbestos, retailers still selling them and the public is still buying them. We need to get the word out there, we need to educate people that these are a risk to to the children of the future. So I'm just I'm disheartened and I'm also very sad that it's still being sold. I still see when I go around the markets, I see you know, people have got the the pasting tables and they're selling this sand that they may have bought from from China and they're still selling them. And some of them don't even know the risk. I think the pad and the pun, the risk is being swept under the carpet. And some people said, oh, there's only a small small amount of asbestos in there. Nobody actually knows the full risk yet.

Speaker 57:55

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Pressuring China And Online Marketplaces

Speaker 4 58:57

Right then, so we've talked about Safety Gate and how it well works with some products and not others. So how can we prevent this sand being sold in Europe then? How are we gonna solve the problem?

Speaker 7 59:14

Richard Safety Gate is of course not solving the problem. It's about making the problem less big because the problem is that sand with asbestos is coming to Europe. And of course, you want to stop it from coming to Europe in the first place. And I still would like to find out as a journalist who's talking to China about this. Are there European regulators, politicians talking to China about these toys? I mean they are talking to China about a lot of things about chips, meat, cars, everything. But also about product safety, I don't know. I've never heard about it. So I still don't know is there any contact with China about these toys? Because China has to do something about it. You want to stop it from coming into the toys over there, or in other countries where they are producing the same toys. And I still don't know that. I still don't have any answers. I asked it a lot of times in Europe to the European Commission, but I still don't know if they have contacts with China about this. And I think that is one of the main questions. What is China doing? And how can maybe other countries force them to do anything?

Speaker 4 1:00:41

That's a really interesting point. What are they doing about it? David, what's your view?

Speaker 5 1:00:47

It's very interesting. Actually, during your conversation with Richard, I looked on Google because I think I heard or I read an article about it last week, so I looked it up on the internet, and actually six days ago, it there was pretty big news that the European Commission actually fined Timu, a very well-known Chinese web store, for selling banned products on the EU market, and they fined them for 200 million euros. And this was actually about toys in general containing toxic substances. So, of course, I don't know, as Richard said, if they are really talking about specifically about the play sand. But I think that all the different scandals about playcent, about asbestos in how do you say that? In small play cars. How do you say that? Uh radio cars, which you can drive yourself. Uh but also when it comes to having heavy metals in children's products, all these kinds of scandals we have heard the last few years here in Europe, and it's all coming from China, so it's actually I think it's a good first step that the European Commission is finding TIMU for selling their sorry for my French their shit on the EU market because it's as Richard said, the traceability is almost impossible. There are so many Chinese companies who are not regulated at all. They use all kinds of substances banned in countries like New Zealand, like Australia, like the European Union. And I think we should really enforce our regulations. We should be much, much harsher on China and on Chinese companies and also other companies from Southeastern Asia selling bent products and substances on our markets. I think it's and and I also see this in my work as a politician: people are talking too much about money and not enough about product safety and quality. It's better to buy a product which is a little bit more expensive, which you can use for many years, and all these terrible cons er products which are cheap, which break down easily, as Terri Ann said about the stretchy toys which break down after a few months of playing with it, releasing hazardous substances like asbestos, and yeah, we should change our economic systems more into protecting our children, protecting our general public safety instead of focusing from the government's view, focusing on economic growth and money. Of course, a company wants to earn money, and especially Chinese companies, and I always say, and I say this to many asbestos contacts and friends of mine, I always say, please understand that the Chinese they don't care about their own people being exposed to asbestos. They don't care about Chinese people working in construction with asbestos, working in factories with asbestos. So don't you think that they cared about children playing in New Zealand or Australia or in Belgi or the Netherlands with placents in which there is a few percent asbestos. They really don't care about it, they want to earn money. And that's what I also said to the Belgian Minister of Cons er Protection, and he actually said the same. He actually had an interview with Richard in his newspaper, and I think he made that comment as well. The Chinese don't care about their own people, so they really don't care about cons ers in our countries. So there's only one thing which we can do, and that is enforce our regulations, and maybe, , which is even better, manufacture products locally again, manufacture products in New Zealand, Australia, in the European Union. And I see that more and more that European companies are bringing back manufacturing back to Europe because that's the only place where they can regulate their quality and to make sure their quality is stable. But even in Europe it's a problem because we heard from a German laboratory that they also had asbestos in products from Austria, mineral products. So we should combine this with stricter regulation, especially on naturally occurring asbestos. We have been focusing too much on asbestos, which is put on purpose into products, and we ignored the risks of naturally occurring asbestos. That's a real issue.

Speaker 7 1:05:44

Maybe I can add that we should make no mistake that we only focus on the Chinese web shops like Temu. I mean, they are fine now, but if you look at the recalls all over the world, you will find big names. Also, European companies, companies from the UK, from everywhere, that sell Chinese products. And maybe they are more expensive and they are in another package, but they also contain asbestos. Don't only focus on the Chinese web shops, I would say.

Speaker 5 1:06:21

I also read about an article that actually the enforcement agency in Australia they recalled towels, so building material which are manufactured in Italy, containing naturally occurring asbestos. So there you see it. You have a country enforcing on all kinds of asbestos like Australia, because they don't make a difference between naturally occurring and man-made products containing asbestos. And in the EU we don't have good regulation on naturally occurring asbestos. So even the products made in Europe are sometimes containing asbestos.

Speaker 4 1:07:00

So,

Collaboration Gaps Between Countries

Speaker 4 1:07:01

David, do you think there's been enough collaboration between countries in this type of event?

Speaker 5 1:07:08

Unfortunately not. You see, even in Europe, you know, we are working together in a single market economy inside of the European Union. So you would expect governments and government enforcement agencies to work together. But the Belgian Minister for Cons er Protection actually told me that the Dutch enforcement agency was not willing to share anything with them during their investigation. So this is crazy. We are neighboring countries speaking the same language, even. So it would be very easy to work together. But all these agencies, all these different agencies in these different countries, no one is working together. It's terrible. And we should work together, we should learn from each other. As I said, we are very, very interested in the work Terrienne is doing at the moment, actually air sampling the actual release of asbestos fibers during activities with placent. And I think also the Dutch government should look to investigations like that in other countries.

Speaker 3 1:08:18

If we move on that subject a little bit further, I mean Richard, something you are picking up on what you said earlier on around repackaging of products is a real challenge, as the origination of the product is something that we can't or don't understand because it can work through several jurisdictions. You said that's not always possible. What's your sort of understanding of that and what you're seeing?

Speaker 7 1:08:44

Like I said, in Europe it is an obligation to have a company that you can refer to as a cons er. So when something is wrong, you can speak to that company that sold you the product or got the product into Europe. But like I said, when I contact that company, they say we don't know whether we don't know the product, it's not from us. So something went wrong or the company's line, that's also possible. But I see importers' names on the products are companies that are very small. I think they never see the products themselves because there are so many products coming from China, they are not all coming to that one company and then going to all the cons ers. And the problem is there are also Chinese companies on the products, but they are very different names. And I have seen the same product with different stickers on it, different labels with different companies. So you will never know which one is the real manufacturer.

Speaker 3 1:09:48

So based on that, I mean that gives a lot of ambiguity in the whole process. But based on the new moves by the European approach, could they be technically sued, those importers, for a product that does contain asbestos?

Speaker 7 1:10:06

I'm not sure about it. I don't know if they can be I didn't try, but what should we do with a company that says it's not my product? It's it's on the product. So how w can we find out who's a real importer and who's a real manufacturer?

Speaker 3 1:10:27

Yeah, no, I definitely agree with your point, but I I suppose is when do you get to the point where somebody has to take accountability somewhere? And I think the legal process is something that we could go a little bit further into. Maybe we we get some legal advice on that because I I appreciate your perspective and what you're seeing on the ground, and we see similar things even in product importation for building products and other products that we have in our markets because we've had several incidences over the last decade where products have come in and they've changed supplier. I mean, we had it a few years ago in New Zealand with scientific gauze mats that come in. The product to manufacture changed from an Australian importer to a Chinese importer, and then we found that there was tremolite in the gauze mat. So there was a bit of work that was done in the background to remove all of those gauze mats. But that happened for several years without any real accountability, and I suppose moving that back to the European market and understanding that we're finding these products with it. I think if you can use a legal framework, we should be attempting to at least.

Speaker 7 1:11:40

I think it's not not a thing that you can ask from cons ers. I mean, we have regulators for that. It's up to the regulator. If you find a product that's not legal, I haven't seen any regulator try even trying to find a company or I mean they are all warned and they have to recall the product and then we go over to the next one. So if you really want to punish the companies who are selling this pro these products, I think it's up to the regulator to do that. Should I, as a cons er buying a product, go to court to sue the manufacturer? That would be difficult, I think.

Speaker 3 1:12:21

I definitely agree with that. I mean, there's some there's some work going on even in New Zealand at the moment where somebody who's purchased some of the products has gone back to the supplier and taking legal action against them. But I won't speak any more about that at the moment until it all unfolds. But I think that's a vital step. But but to your point, Richard, the regulator should be doing that heavy lifting and not the cons er at the end of the chain. I definitely agree with your point.

Speaker 6 1:12:55

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1 1:12:56

I do think that that's that's absolutely where it should be coming from. Look, some fantastic discussion, but we're coming to the end of our podcast.

What David And Richard Do Next

Speaker 1 1:13:04

But we would like to know a little bit about the next few steps from Richard and David. So can you tell us what's next? Will you continue on this track? Are you going back to cosmetics, or where else might you go with this? What would be the plan for the next coming year? What would you like to achieve in terms of asbestos?

Speaker 6 1:13:22

We'll start with David.

Speaker 5 1:13:25

Thank you, Terri anne. The thing is, I I really want to get further into investigation into naturally occurring asbestos, ending up in cons er products. So talcum and cosmetics are very interesting. Actually, really interesting is that the risk assessment committee of the European Chemicals Agency actually evaluated the risk of talcum even without asbestos, and they categorized it as a category 1B carcinogen, telling that even talcum itself is actually a carcinogen, even without asbestos. So, probably talcum will be strictly regulated starting in 2027 in the European Union. So you can already see cosmetics companies who are stopping their use of talcum . So maybe this is a problem which is being solved by new regulation, I don't know yet. But there's definitely a problem with naturally occurring asbestos ending up in cons er products. So I would really like to test more different kinds of products. I would like to test cosmetics and really want to bring up this issue to regulators and to politicians telling them that we should really, really create stricter regulations on the issue of naturally occurring asbestos ending up in products. So that's what I would like to do the next few years.

Speaker 1 1:14:59

Look, that sounds fantastic, and I would be so fascinated to hear more about what you do. And if you need any any help and support, then please let me know. And over to Richard. What's next for you?

Speaker 7 1:15:10

Of course, I'm also going to do completely different items. Not that about asbestos anymore, but I will certainly not let go of the of this yet because there are still things to be investigated. Like I said, I really want to find the sources in China. I really want to find the companies that are making this stuff. I've found that this is really difficult, so I'm trying to make my mission a little bit smaller now. I'm starting with the the Sand, the Montessori sand trays now. They are still popping up everywhere all over the world. I'm still seeing recalls in different countries. Yesterday, I believe it was in the UK, also a Montessori's sand tray, and I'm surprised that still this product is still popping up everywhere. So I want to find the factory that is making them if it's one or maybe more.

Speaker 6 1:16:11

And of course, there are still things in Europe to be solved. Uh there has to be I made a decision about that 0.1 limit.

Speaker 7 1:16:27

There have to be rules for companies to test their products, and I want to know what those rules are, of course. And how many products do you have to test to prove that it's not containing asbestos is also a question I still have. And of course, then I will check if companies are really doing that. So maybe we are going to do a test again in the future, because I think it's necessary. The regulators are not doing it themselves until now, we've seen.

Speaker 1 1:17:00

Yeah, it's very interesting because you mentioned about doing other things, but I can see that there's still this passion and this desire to actually continue with the asbestos track. And I I do find that amongst asbestos professionals, researchers, anybody in that environment, that that they develop a passion and then they they almost can't stop. And I certainly see that lots and lots of people I work with are the same. Jase and Rob, just before we finish today, if you had one sort of goal, the moment that you would like to put forward for the next year in terms of asbestos, what would you like to achieve?

Education Goals And Practical Next Steps

Speaker 1 1:17:34

Let's start with Rob.

Speaker 3 1:17:37

Yeah, from a from a personal base, I I think it's really about education and making sure that people are aware of what's going on. Because I think that's, and I found that in my career, that the biggest tool that we have in our arsenal is actually knowledge and dispersing that knowledge. So I think the work that you've done, Richard and David, is invaluable and goes beyond us as people. Because, you know, anecdotally, having conversations and you know, from people from the UK I'd had these conversations with, and they went, Oh, do you know I got rid of that product ages ago, I'm not using it, I'm not purchasing it. You know, making the right choices is what we can influence by information and knowledge. So I think for me, pushing really hard in that area and providing as much as I can in a way of knowledge to the wider audience and not just a specialist audience of who deal with this product all the time, but general people in the populace, you know, if people understand it's still there, they can make the right decisions based on the information you provide. So I think for me, the drive for this year is to push on through my work with Famanz and my work with Hazanz as well, on trying to influence that discussion point and making sure people are aware of the risks that they're essentially exposed to on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 6 1:19:01

Thanks, Rob. That sounds awesome. Jace?

Speaker 4 1:19:06

Yeah, I agree with with Rob, education is definitely the key. I want to pursue the asbestos sand or the asbestos contaminated sand. We should educate people not to buy it. As soon as we stop buying it, they'll stop producing it. And like David said, I think a safer alternative should be is it gonna be flour, is it gonna be rice? But kids will always want to play with sand down at the beach or in the play centres. So find a safer alternative for them. Stop buying natural products that are coming from China. That's a really good thing. China have not put the hand up, they've ignored it. Uh and when you do check out the search engines, anything under five five percent or lower is classed as asbestos free. So we need to educate people, we need to have lists of naturally occurring materials that that could be present in the products coming within within our country, we should keep an eye out for it. But definitely, definitely encourage parents not to buy it.

Speaker 1 1:20:18

Yeah, and and I still I come from the older generation where I was I was making products like that for the kids out of flour and all sorts of things. I remember that. That was great fun, it was cheap, and , and it was easy, and I know it takes time, and maybe time is what our communities desperately need at the moment because life is just such a fast pace, and maybe that's another cue for us to slow down a bit. So for me, I would like to continue to support people who are suffering from asbestos-related disease as part of our work at the MSAA Trust. Um, because I ask the question, I get two. And my second one is I would really like to continue looking at the discussion and the arg ents that have arisen because of the terms friable and non-friable, and really just challenging the fact that they are two, that they are considered to be binary terms. I would like people to think about this as a continu rather than either non-friable or friable. And that's something I would like to do scientifically and get some more information around that and maybe get some some way of testing that theory. That would be my slightly geeky thing for the next year. Look, on asbestos still kills, we do discuss issues around asbestos, of course, but we also are interested in other environmental

Contact The Team And Closing Thanks

Speaker 1 1:21:28

issues. So if you have a story that you would like to tell us, if you would like to come and talk to the team, we'd be really keen. We're always looking out for new ideas. So if you do want to do that, please do contact us. We are the Asbestos Still Kills podcast team, and we are available at asbestos still kills. That's all one word at gmail.com. Do drop us a line, we'd love to hear from you, and thank you so much to our guests.

Speaker 4 1:21:55

And finally, thank you so much to you all for joining us today on the asbestos still kills podcast. A big thank you to you, David and Richard. You've been wonderful guests, and we look forward to meeting up with everyone on the next episode. Thank you. Goodbye.

Speaker 6 1:22:13

Thanks, thank you for having us.

Speaker 1 1:22:17

Thank you.

Speaker 4 1:22:21

Thank you for listening to the asbestos still kills podcast. Presented by Robert McAllister, Farman's Director, Dr Terry Ann Berry, the Environmental Innovation Centre, EIC, Jason Molner, Asbestos Management Consultant Limited, AMC. For more information on the Asbestos Stillkills podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com For more information also to read and accept the podcast disclaimer before viewing or listening to this podcast, go to www.asbestosstillkills.com or contact us by email at asbestosstillkills at gmail.com Thank you. For more information on the Misethelioma Support and Asbestos Awareness Trust, please go to www.msatrust.org.nz Thank you.