Startup Wins: Founders, VCs & Builders
Actionable Insights for Startups and Everyone in the Builder Ecosystem from Founders to VCs and Experts at building meaningful companies that track to become Unicorns and create multigenerational impact.
Hosted by the former host of EduK8, Befm (Busan's English Radio) and the only SEO radio show on the internet in 2011. Brandon is also the author of UNICORN STARTUPS on Amazon. https://amzn.to/47D9v1j
Previous guests include VC & 8 Time Founder David Yi, Founder & Startup Expert Kevin Henrikson, 7 Time Founder Kimberly Kovacs, CMO Olga Denisova, LinkedIn Branding Expert String Nguyen, Micromarkets Expert & Payments Founder Mike King
Startup Wins: Founders, VCs & Builders
Startup Wins (Podcast) S1 E7 | Micromarkets Startup Founder Mike King Shares Sage Advice
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Payments Processing Startup Founder Mike King, CEO of Moneta Market joins Brandon Na & Startup Wins (https://www.linkedin.com/company/startup-wins). Mike provides wisdom gained over many years building more than 20 businesses and truly honing in on how to start the perfect startup by brewing it slowly. Don't be surprised if Mike is creating the beginning of another Paypal Mafia. You'll enjoy this podcast immensely.
Brandon is Managing General Partner of Good People Ventures, former radio show host, previously produced 3 seasons of the podcast EduK8 where he interviewed top VCs like Minnie Ingersoll & AI leaders like James Brady & Author of UNICORN STARTUPS. Available on Amazon!
Amazing past guests include: Startup Wins (https://bit.ly/4mJGE0r) Episodes:
Olga Denisova - ep 1, https://bit.ly/4lXiz4X, Published 7/14/2025 YouTube https://tinyurl.com/2eh24ce9
Kevin Henrikson - ep 2, http://bit.ly/45Zeze5, Published 7/28/25 YouTube https://bit.ly/3Ib8Ry8
String Nguyen - ep 3, https://bit.ly/45sf6X3, Published 8/21/25 YouTube https://tinyurl.com/32x6u6eh
David Yi - ep 5, https://bit.ly/4gopYsL, Published 9/2/25, YouTube https://bit.ly/46gRaWV
Kimberly Kovacs - ep 6, Spotify/Podcast link: https://tinyurl.com/29emmmh3, YouTube link: https://tinyurl.com/5btwedpf
Mike King -
Hosted by Brandon Na, Managing General Partner of Good Peoples Ventures
Welcome to Startup Wins. Twice a month we share real stories and smart tips. Subscribe and join the journey.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Startup Wins. Today we have a special guest, and this gentleman I found on TikTok of all places. I'm not on TikTok all the time, but uh let's welcome to the show Michael King.
SPEAKER_01Hey, Brandon, thanks for having me on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, we appreciate you being on. So our guests don't know who you are unless they read the description, which I will make sure that we write everything about you. But um, if you don't mind, could you tell us a little bit about that viral video? And then we're gonna talk a little more about you, and then maybe some stuff about startups here in a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. Actually, so that video I made back in February when uh it first was announced that there was gonna be a tariff on steel, and I get these boxes that are made out of steel, and um I've found that I've almost been forced into making them in China. Um and I was trying to calculate like are the how bad are those tariffs gonna hurt. Um, so this is way before just like the blanket tariffs were happening, and and I just kind of uh made a video just kind of explaining as a small business owner making steel products in China and being subject to these tariffs, like this is kind of how I feel about it, and and that like overall, you know, uh China's gonna come out ahead because we just we can't there's not a feasible way to really bring that kind of massive amount of manufacturing back to America, and so I just kind of was voicing my frustrations about it. Honestly, it's like my least favorite TikTok that I've ever made for some reason that like just went crazy. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, I remember having this conversation with you a while back, it seemed so much sensible. I mean, it was very sensible for what you had to do, not before the video, but you're a smaller business that hopefully will grow to a larger size, obviously. But as a smaller business, you can't be spending tons and tons of money on the different products to basically sell to your customers, right? I mean, that was kind of the main issue, am I correct?
SPEAKER_01It's um it's money and time and convenience, it's all of those things. So, like the whole thing is like when you're trying to work with American companies, it can be kind of difficult to uh uh logistically, like you'll send them plans, and then there's just like weeks and weeks of back and forth, like, oh, we need you to change that, or we can do that for you, but it costs, you know, worth 300 an hour or whatever, versus you send drawings to China and and they say the same thing. They're like, hey, we're gonna have to make some changes, but we'll just do that. And then they have it done by like you know, two days from now, and then they send you and you know, minimum order quantities and are are like you can make one thing in China if you want, but like in America, a lot of the times they're like, if you're not gonna do 500, then we can't talk to you. And so um just convenience-wise, like you know, in China they're making my product, they're power coding it, they're creating a custom uh styrofoam like enclosure, they're boxing it with like these awesome corners, is like so that's because they know how to ship across the world, and so then when I unback unbox it here and then assemble um and build it out and then rebox it, it's like super protected. And in America, like I would have to logistically find each one of those pieces, put like organize them all myself, and like I don't have time for that. And so working with China has been, and that's kind of like what the in the video I was kind of saying that you know, tariffs would have to go way, way, way up because of the convenience factor before I'm gonna actually because I'll pay for convenience, right? Like, I'll pay for them to just do everything and I don't have to think about it, and I just I now I pay a tax for that versus like finding everything in America and finding, you know, and and the funny part is like after that video was released, like I had just dozens and dozens of steel manufacturing places reach out to me and I would send them all the plans and they'd be like, Hey, we can do that. I'm like, Hey, this sounds promising. I send them the plans, and it was just the same thing over and over and over and over. Like, no one in America wants to make those boxes, no one wants to do all those steps.
SPEAKER_02Um, so we're kind of entitled, it sounds like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um, yeah, entitled is a way to explain it. Um, and and just I don't know, fat and happy, maybe just like it's easier. Like in in China, it seems like they they really want to work and they really want to bend over backwards for you and they really will fight for your business. Um that's definitely like a huge separation. Like when you're talking to America, they're just like, man, we don't need this. Like, make it easy for us because we don't need this on our plate. We don't care about your business, you know.
SPEAKER_02Well, we're gonna I'd love to talk more about this because I'd argue this is somewhat controversial. And obviously that's one of the reasons why the the video took off. But let's start off with let's talk about Mike. We want to be Mike or we want to be like Mike, right? Because Mike has had many years in the startup world, and I'd love to learn a little bit more or at least help the audience know what you've been doing um prior to this. This is not your first rodeo.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um, it's the first time I think that I've like I do try I call myself a first-time startup founder because I've always been an entrepreneur and I've always been like a a hustler, but um this is the first time that I've kind of stumbled into a business that's truly scalable. Um and and I can do it with a small team. And so this is the exciting one. But I mean, I've done lots of different little things. Um, I mean, I've probably started over 20 businesses and failed a bunch of times and and whatever. But um, yeah, I mean, so what 20 something years ago, I started a vending uh vending machine company. I read an ebook online, and it was about, you know, I was serving tables at TGI Fridays, and um I read this ebook about placing gumball machines, like little quarter turn candy machines. And uh so I got you know super zoned in on that. And I started buying those and placing them, and I probably placed about, you know, maybe 45 of those. And I was going around on Saturdays and filling them up and collecting the money, and I was ending, I ended up making more money doing that than I was serving full time at this restaurant. And then I met a guy along the way that kind of became my mentor, was like, hey, you know, don't mess around with those little machines, uh, buy full-size snack and soda and get into vending and do this for real. And so I started buying some of those uh locations from him and like full-size machines and got into that. And then, you know, that was kind of a side gig too for a long time until I discovered uh micro markets about six, six or seven years into that journey. Um, and uh I placed my first uh micro market and immediately, you know, tripled my sales that I like I had a snack of soda in a frozen food machine doing like 250 a week. Um, and they they called up to kick me out and and said, uh, you know, go get your machines. And I was like, is it what what's wrong? Is it my service? They're like, you're great, we're just gonna go this different direction, we're gonna have this open market. And I was like, well, I can do that too. I couldn't, I don't know, you know, I was just trying to save the account. And so they said, okay, you can stay. And so I got a crash course in markets, and then we immediately started doing like $650 a week in sales. Uh, so then the light bulb kind of went off, and I was like, Well, how much money am I leaving on the table by operating vending machines instead of these markets? And so we systematically over the next few years like started replacing a bunch of vending accounts with micro markets, and it was then that I realized that I pretty much hated every software solution that was out there, the ones that I filtered through and tried. I was like, man, these guys are it's highway robbery, like the fees are so nuts. And like the the industry standard was to take a portion of your fees, right? Uh a portion of your sales as a commission. That was our software fee. And I was like, that's kind of nuts. Um, and so, you know, uh when this opportunity came my way, where uh one of the guys that was working tech support for one of the companies I was using quit his job and we stayed friends. And then he was like, Hey, what if I built a system and solved a lot of the problems that you, you know, that I've experienced and that you've experienced. And I was like, I'll do it if we can make the fee structure a little bit down to earth. Like I don't want to take a commission, I just want to have a flat rate fee like the rest of the world does. And uh so we said, okay, let's try this out. And uh yeah, we're going, we're entering into our sixth year now, and uh it's been well received by the industry. When people find out about us, they're pretty pretty excited. Everyone pretty much has the same complaint that I did about it all.
SPEAKER_02And so yeah, so I wanted to raise my hand earlier because just to make sure that the audience knows what is a micro market, right?
SPEAKER_01So that's where um everything is just out in the open with a self-checkout kiosk. So instead of any machines, you would basically have like a C store in your break room, um, of your workplace break room, typically. And uh you walk up to it, you're on camera, you grab your items, scan them, just like you would self-checkout at a grocery store. And so, you know, back in the day, uh self-checkout wasn't really a thing um in in daily life, right? Like that's sort of a newer phenomenon, but 20 something years ago was the you know the first company pioneering this idea. So the micro markets have been around and self-checkout in the workplace has been around for a long time.
SPEAKER_02It's just kind of now the rest of the world has kind of embraced it, and so and um this is just purely curiosity, it doesn't necessarily have to do with startup stuff, but what kind of theft rate is there in these open, trusted you know, areas? Because I bet you that was the main uh obstacle for them to even occur, I would think, no?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, surprisingly, most people are honest people, and uh so you you know, theft is between three to five percent. Maybe you could expect. I mean, there's like what I call unintended theft, which is someone taps their card and walks away and then it's thinking and then it declines the transaction and they weren't there to witness that. And I don't I don't pursue that um very often like that, unless it's like the same guy doing it over and over, he knows what he's doing or whatever. But um the general notion is that most people are not really willing to risk their job over a Snickers bar. Um, and so typically, if you are gonna place a micro market, you're gonna have a conversation with that location first and say, what's your theft policy? What are we gonna do when inevitably you're gonna hire a bad egg and they're gonna come to work and just clean out the market, and we're gonna see that and we're gonna bring that to you. And like, how are you guys gonna react to that? Um, so before you even ever place one, you just want to establish like what is the theft policy? How do you want to go about you know dealing with it? And then when it does happen, you just be diligent about finding it and presenting it to the location and then saying, okay, you know, enforce your theft policy, and there you go.
SPEAKER_02So, Mike, you're a small player in this industry, right? And but from what I can see, I see vending machines all over the place. And you know, in the airports, you know, as you said, companies have these little micro markets. How big is the TAM here, or how big is the total available market?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think recently Google says that it's like a $32 billion industry in America, um, and it's like a $70 billion industry worldwide. Um, so and I think that includes everything though. That's you know, toy machines to you know, gumball machines to vending machines to micro markets and uh everything unattended.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And you're growing from what I remember our previous conversations, uh, like on a month-to-month basis, but you're still kind of a small percentage of the entire equation, correct?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, we are the smallest, um, for sure. Unless there's you know another company that I'm not aware of yet. But uh yeah, I mean, we're we're by far the the smallest, and I I assume that we will just because of the time that's under the other companies' belts and and whatnot, like we might always be the smallest. Um, but it's a big, big industry, and uh what we provide is wanted and needed by vending operators out there.
SPEAKER_02So what what what is that advantage that you guys have over maybe the eight excuse me, 800-pound gorilla?
SPEAKER_01Uh I mean, there's a few, definitely. Um, faster, better customer service, more personalized experience. Um, the fact that those companies, while they might have been founded and started like, you know, decades ago by someone who is probably like me, an owner operator, um, they're so far removed from that. Um at this point, that you know, when you call up uh anyone else in the industry, you're likely going to talk to a software salesman who's never owned a vending machine or a vending route or has built a vending business from scratch. And um, I have that. People on my team have that um going for us. And and so when you call us up and say, I landed this account, should I take it? What should I put there? How fast do you think, like, what do you think I'm gonna make and how fast am I gonna get my ROI? Like, I don't know the answers to those questions. Um, versus uh, you know, uh a software salesman taking their best guess at it. So real advice, um, a community of of other operators um giving real advice. And uh, but I mean, cost is obviously the biggest one because that was like my thing was I I want to make this affordable. It was a huge financial burden for my company operating on these other systems, and it hasn't gotten any better. Um, and so you know, just talking to people and saying, like, hey, these this is our fee structure, and you're gonna save like 50% on your fees, whatever you're paying to anyone else. Um, and when they kind of sit back and do the math and go, oh yeah, that's that's actually a lot. I mean, the bigger you are, the bigger the dollar amount is that you're gonna save. Um but uh just a general general attitude out there, I think this might be true across all businesses right now in America, just because of what private equity has done. Um so I mean, we're the only independently owned and operated micro market software solution in the industry right now. So if your choices are let's choose the company that's a private equity group, or let's choose the company that's a publicly traded company, or let's choose the privately owned and operated one. Um, a lot of people will side to us just for that reason because they're like, I just want my money to go somewhere meaningful, you know. Yeah, at the end of the day, we're all the same thing. It's a point of sell system, it's a place where someone can tap a card and buy something, you know what I mean? Uh and so really it's like, where do you want your dollars to flow? And that's a big, I think a big one right now, um, that can be like a selling point. But I've heard horror stories from people that switch over from other systems, like we ordered a kiosk, and it took them six weeks to get it to us, and then it took them another four weeks to onboard us as a customer, you know, because they're just so big and so slow moving. And uh, you know, I I don't know how you tackle those problems. Maybe one day we'll be there too. But I would like to think that we would always be able to give uh fast responsive service. That's kind of my my whole thing.
SPEAKER_02So, Mike, now this is your first startup, as you mentioned, and I imagine since you've been how many years are you into this now?
SPEAKER_01We're entering our sixth year.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So you've had six years of learnings, six years of pains, six, six years of probably like, I got some new secrets I can share with somebody else, right? So do you mind sharing a little bit of that for anybody who else is like, you know, venturing into their first startup?
SPEAKER_01Startups. I mean, uh the the only thing that really comes to mind is is that I feel fortunate that um I didn't choose an industry from the outside looking in. Like I I grew up in this industry, like I was running a vending company and I understood what my own problems were. And I think that this has been said a million times on the internet, and it's easy to find this anywhere. But like, you know, if you if you can understand a problem and you understand how to solve that problem, like that's that's the business idea, right? And so I I think I was lucky in that um I just I was the person experiencing the problem, I was my own like client that I'm you know, the the person that I'm targeting. Um, and so it was easy for me to be like, yeah, that's what I want. Uh, and I know that if I want that, there's probably other people that want that. And so I think if you're if you're just starting from a blank slate and thinking, I want to be an entrepreneur, um, but I don't exactly know what what direction to go right now, I would say work a lot in industries that interest you, and then find the pain points and see if you can solve a problem because that's um, I think I see like there's a lot of people that are just like serial startup founders, right? That just go, they pitch an idea to VCs or angel investors and they get some money and then they try it out, and then they end up like never getting any customers. And they're like, well, scrap that idea, let's uh let's think of another one. And it's like if you're always uh looking at an industry from the outside in and you're thinking, like, man, it looks like that might be a problem for people. There's 10,000 moving parts that you're not aware of, and I think that's where most people fall flat. And I'm just lucky that I, you know, went through the motions of owning a vending company and um for a long time, and I intimately understood just all the worst parts of owning a vending company, you know, sure before I started this.
SPEAKER_02So well, because it's a startup, however, uh scaling is possibly one of the biggest challenges. So have you had some, you know, I guess, experiences that you can say, wow, this worked a lot better than I thought, or wow, this is the worst thing I could have done at this point.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I've definitely made my fair miss uh fair share of mistakes. Um I mean, what's worked for me is uh, you know, I I wanted to do this from I knew that this was gonna work with like 100% certainty. Like I knew that this was gonna work. Um what does work mean? That it was a viable business. Like I knew that if I entered this space that we would get customers and we would um uh uh succeed to some degree, and so um I was willing to put my own money into it, and uh we we decided to be bootstrapped, which um also meant really slow growth, really slow development because it was just me and my developer partner, and so it was just like build one thing at a time, and uh, you know, I had friends that were excited to get out of their current solutions and jump on board to mine, and so um it was uh I think yeah, I don't know. I mean there's a lot of different ways to to go about it. Um we could have definitely scaled up ago and built a lot faster, um, but there, but then I would have the pressures of answering to an investor or um, you know, meeting certain quotas of growth, and I just didn't want that pressure. So for me, I know myself and having like a low pressure environment and just saying, hey, let's just go with the flow and and and do this uh slow and steady, um, that worked for me. I think if early on, if I would have gone out and got funded and then uh had to deal with those added pressures, it it might have you know, it might have been good, but I'm happy that we did it the way we did. But that's been yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you know it's a scale, rather it's a good business. Do you know for sure it's a scalable business? And with that, just an extra question, let's say somebody did pour 20 million dollars on you, you know, or you know, threw it in your bank account. Do you feel like you could go and capture the rest of the market or at least a significant part?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, now um well, I think there's something to be said too about becoming a proven concept. And so I I remember the day that people just started calling us to buy our our solution that I didn't know and I didn't know anyone that knew them. And and that that's when I realized, like, oh yeah, I mean, this is this is finally real. Like I always kind of believed it was gonna be real, and then it started happening. I was like, oh, this is real, this is actually something people want. So I mean, if someone were to pour 20 million dollars on us right now, I know we would definitely continue to scale up. Um I uh yeah, um, there's a lot of enterprise uh companies out there that could be had that I think have been on legacy systems for a long time. Um, I think you're gonna always encounter the businesses that are just, hey, it's set up, you know, don't uh don't mess with it. Um everything's fine, I don't want to mess with it. But then you're gonna meet the guys who are disgruntled in what they've experienced. And so there's definitely a share of that market that's currently out there, and there's the the market is growing. Like we've caught like unattended retail is a tidal wave that's gonna sweep across our our nation um over the next 20 years, and this is the very beginning of it, and so it's it's a big wave. Um, we're positioned to ride that wave uh out for as as long as we can. And uh so now is the time to scale up. Um, I think it would be hard if someone was starting now, um, but we got in, I think, at the last minute, you know. So yeah, there's a there's a lot of uh scaling up to do. And it's also, I mean, what we're doing is is uh can can be done globally, right? And there's a lot of uh, you know, micro markets took off here um in the last probably like I'd say like in the last like eight years or so, they've really just uh took taken off, you know. Um, but in in a lot of other industrial nations that you know have tons of industry, um, they're still using vending machines and they're and they're kind of just now dipping their toes in micro markets. And you know, smart coolers is this whole other thing that's taking off right now. Um, and as that, you know, the wave just kind of swept across America, but it's still just totally growing here. Um, but I mean, you know, uh everything in Latin America, everything in Europe, all the industry out there is kind of yet to be touched by this. So there's a huge upside potential.
SPEAKER_02Um now, people listening in or watching you here on YouTube, um probably wonder, or I would wonder, if I wanted to jump into the startup arena, how many hours does this guy put into his business? And what kind of income is he making? And how is he sharing with his team? Uh he seems like a nice guy, but like is he living the life? Is he living, you know, is he is he squeaking by? Like, what does a startup founder's life after six years of building a business feel like?
SPEAKER_01Um, it's not for everybody, and I have a high tolerance for risk and pain. And so uh, you know, I will say that uh it's the you know, we're ending the fifth year, entering the sixth year of doing this. I'm just now starting to take some money from this. Um, I've used my the vending business that I own um to basically fund this. And uh so I mean when we first started out, uh I asked my partner, how much money do you need a month to live? And uh he gave me the number, which was pretty much all of my income. And and so I I basically was just kind of signing checks over to that guy uh for the first uh probably like eight months, where he sat down and and developed our app and the beginnings of our back-end inventory management system. And uh and so I was at home eating broccoli and ramen, you know, for six months or so, and uh just uh money would enter my account and would go to him. Uh, but I set myself up in a way where like I have a uh property that I lived in, the mother-in-law apartment in the front. I was renting it out to people and they paid the house payments. So I was kind of like living for free. Business was paying for my cell phone. I really didn't have a lot of expenses. Um, but I think it's it's not for everybody, like not everybody can do that because you know, some you know, people need money, and I definitely sacrificed relationships with friends and romantic partners to to make this happen. Um, and being bootstrapped will do that to you, right? And just deciding like we're not gonna take on any investor money right now. Um, but uh yeah, I mean, I think I hear the story a lot when I do listen to other people that bootstrapped is that it's a lot of the times it's a five-year plan before you make money. And all of us are doing this because we know that there's a payday one day, right? And and uh, but instead of taking money earlier, I could have earlier, but I built my team first. So it was like as soon as we had a little bit of extra income coming in from like monthly recurring revenue, then I would immediately hire, you know, customer service rep. And then you know, we would grow it, the, the money some more, and then I'd immediately hire another developer and then an app developer and then another full stack. And and so uh, you know, and now I'm dating someone who's uh super mentally healthy. She's a therapist and she's like boundaries, and you have to, you know, you have to make some money. And so now there's like some motivation at home to be like, okay, I uh I'll stop with the with the poor lifestyle and I'll start taking some some money. I would still very much like to hire the next person, but I think the next one to get hired is gonna be me, and then uh and then we'll focus on building the team out some more. But yeah, I mean that's kind of been the process, and it's it's not for everybody.
SPEAKER_02So when you hire yourself, are you gonna give yourself a raise in the first six months, or you just gotta start at entry level for a while?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna I'm gonna make uh just enough money to make the missus uh happy. Okay. And not a penny more.
SPEAKER_02And are you working weekends? Uh I imagine you're working Saturdays at least, sometimes Sundays.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, and pretty regularly I've worked like, you know, the seven days a week just to make it happen. And then you can always like take some time off and and uh you know set a schedule for yourself. Um, I'm just a workaholic and I like diving into projects, and so for me it's fun. It's not like it's like what I want to do. My my girlfriend's constantly saying, you know, you need to go out and get a hobby. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. Like, I have a hundred hobbies. There's a bunch of things I love doing. But right now, what I love doing is building this business. And so, like, if you give me free time, I'm going to the warehouse and I'm gonna build the business more. Like, that's what I'm gonna do with it, and it's by choice. It's not I'm not stressed out about it. I'm not like uh begrudgingly like waking up on a Saturday and going, like, oh crap, there's all this stuff I have to do. And oh, I'm waking up excited and going, like, I gotta go do this stuff. This is gonna be awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, somebody tweeted earlier today something like how many hours do you have to work a week, right?
SPEAKER_01And wrong question. How many hours do you have to?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was half to, right? And it was something like, you know, we the typical standard obviously is 40, and then They were proposing something like 20. I responded by how about zero and make everything passion. So if you uh are doing everything because you're passionate about it, you may end up working 160 hours a week out of the 172, right? Because you want to do it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it if it's what you uh it's how you choose to spend your time. Um you know, uh I think well, beating a dead horse now, but yeah, I mean, if you give me, if you give me, you know, any any time, like I know what I'm doing with it, and it and it's this. And it's like, it's not um, you know, even my business partner who's been paid the whole time, right? Like, because he got paid on day one, uh, you know, he'll he'll express extreme concern that I'm not getting paid. And he's like, you're gonna, you're gonna, you know, one day maybe walk away from this because you know, you you're not making money. And he's very concerned about that. And I keep telling him, I'm like, you know, this for me isn't about money. Um, it's it's uh it's fun for me to watch something grow. So like to me, it's like I'm watering a garden every day. I'm you know, weeding this garden, I'm like tending to it, and and it's gonna grow into this massive, beautiful thing. And for me, that's exciting. Like, I just want to see something that I worked on like turn into this awesome thing that runs itself and that is self-sufficient and that is uh providing a service to other people and just the feeling of you know knowing that you provided value to the community um and being able to stand back and say, I created that, that's worth so much more than a six or seven-figure paycheck to me, anyway. But like, you know, not everyone's like that.
SPEAKER_02So if somebody comes in, let's say a PE company, um, and they love your software, they love your hardware, and they say, We'll buy the IP and everything else for $200 million. Would you sell today?
SPEAKER_01Today for two, well, it's definitely not worth that, but um well, that might not be the best way to sell it, by the way. Uh, I think I would feel bad that they'd be overpaying. But I mean, uh I don't know how to answer that. I mean, 200 million is a lot of money, but uh how about 20 million? If I 20 million is a no, but if I if I had to like if I did get a payday, like a big payday like that, um I'm the next thing that I'm gonna think about is like okay, well then what's next? Like, what's the next project? What's the next thing that I'm gonna build? What's the next thing I'm gonna work on? Because I have to have something. Like, you can't just sit on a beach forever and do nothing. Like, you have to something has to make life fun. Sure, right? And and for me, like, I mean, honestly, like if I'm on a vacation, I'm usually just kind of waiting for, I mean, that's a real weird way to say waiting for it to be over, but sort of in a way, I'm just like, yeah, you know, at some point it's like time to get back to the business, time to get back to like accomplishing things, um, you know, setting goals and reaching them. And so if I sold, I mean, I'm not gonna, you know, say no to a 200 million dollar payday, but at the same time, I'm then gonna turn around and go like, well, what sounds like fun now?
SPEAKER_02Um you seem like a nice guy. I actually met you in person. We had dinner one night, and you were a nice guy then, but you're not managing me, nor am I managing you. How's it managing people? And have you had to change your psychology in managing them to make them more efficient or to make sure that the business survives?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think I've gotten very lucky in hiring people that are proactive, that don't need to be told what to do, and that uh are genuinely interested in the project. And I have a really good team. Um, and we, I mean, we've hired some people in the past that like weren't that, and it's pretty easy to kind of suss that out early on and be like, this guy is not dedicated, you know, he doesn't care about the project. And you know, we always say like attitude over everything, like, you know, I would say attitude over education, attitude over past experience. Like, if I if I ask someone a question, the the answer, you know, can can this be done? The answer should be, oh yeah, I mean it can be done, or we'll find a way, or don't worry about it. Like, yeah, you know, we'll we'll research it, we'll figure it out. Like, yes, the answer is yes. And if I ask someone a question and they're just like, oh, that would be really hard to do, and this is why, and whatever, whatever, then it's just like you're not the guy. Um, and so build building our team has been uh a learning experience, but the the thing that I think I've had to adjust to the most in managing people is more just managing my own expectations and just realizing that like building software takes time and that you know, if a developer tells me that it's a two-week thing, I usually just times that by three now. And that's where I set my expectation. And then if they if they reach it before that, I'm happier around there, then I'm happy. But if it goes past that, then I kind of start putting the hammer down and saying, okay, well, what give me a real timeline? What are we looking at here? Because I have to be able to communicate that to you know, people. Um, but I mean, just understanding that workload um that you have to set realistic realistic expectations from your team, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Well, you you you say you got lucky, but I would argue you created good job descriptions, you looked in good networks, um, you had great referrals from quality teammates that you have right now. So it's breeding more people because of your current network, and maybe it stems from you. Uh I would argue like as we build our venture capital firm, we've been pretty lucky in the candidates you know applying for the general partner because their ethos is the same as our mission statement and our manifesto. So I'm I'm gonna argue for your sake, it might be because of you. Would you disagree?
SPEAKER_01Or uh I mean if it is because of me, it's definitely just because the the only thing that I took part in is just saying, yes, let's hire that person. Um, but I think that when I say we've gotten lucky, it's that like we we tend to stumble upon people that are um grateful, I think, and uh and that are talented um or willing to uh develop their skills. But overall, it's just the attitude that you know these people are um maybe they've had bad jobs in the past, and then when they meet us and they're like, oh, this is a pretty actually a pretty chill work environment, and I can just kind of be creative and do my own thing, but they they produce results, and their attitude is just uh super humble and grateful, and um, there's just kind of like no ego in any of them, and and uh that's uh that's where I feel lucky.
SPEAKER_02Awesome, awesome. Well, congrats on that. Hopefully that continues. So I'd love to actually start to ask you the three cues that we actually end the show with, uh, because it gives us a little bit more insight into who you are. So we ask three questions always. Uh who's your hero? Uh who are good role models, and I will save the last one because it's a simple one and I think uh it won't be too hard to answer. But first off, who's your hero, or do you have any heroes in this world?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh, I mean, if there was one person that I would ever want to be able to meet, uh, it would definitely be uh, I don't know if I say this name right, but it's uh paramahansa yogananda, the guy that brought yoga to the West. Uh that would be my hero, hero. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what why why is this uh and could you say his name again? Because that was hard to understand.
SPEAKER_01Uh Paramahansa Yogananda. Yeah. Uh I mean, if to anyone who's ever read autobiography of a yogi, um, it's very clear. I think he's a very prominent figure uh and a lot of people's hero for a lot of good reasons. But it would be just super interesting to meet and sit down and talk with uh that guy.
SPEAKER_02Cool. How about role models? Uh, do you look up to certain folks that maybe have practiced certain things in their lives that maybe you like to emulate?
SPEAKER_01Uh a lot of that would just come from books um that I've read. And I think the most influential or podcast that I've listened to, you know, um is Startup Wins. Just kidding. So you're getting there, man. Uh I think um, you know, Michael Singer um with his with his uh books that he's written has been super influential in my life. Um uh, you know, there's that podcast that I've probably listened to over and over and over, definitely more times than anyone, which is from the Naval Rabbi Kant. Um, I think I can't remember what it's called, How to Get Rich or something like that. Um, and then uh just Gary V, Gary Vaynerchuk. That guy's uh, you know, always just I anytime I see any of his videos, it's just these little these little pieces of wisdom every single time. I've gotten more out of that guy's free content than I think anybody else on the internet.
SPEAKER_02And why do you call them role models though? Um, I've heard of Naval, I think I've listened to him speak a few times. He sounds almost religious in the way that he speaks, but very philosophical, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Role models in that I think that if more people were like them or more people emulated them, the world would be a better place.
SPEAKER_02And why Michael Singer? I I don't know Michael Singer.
SPEAKER_01Uh Michael Singer's uh interesting book. Uh he wrote a super interesting book, um The Surrender Experiment. It's also a book that I've read a bunch of times. I always forget the name of it though. Um, but uh, you know, he's uh he's a bit an entrepreneur, but not on purpose, um, which is just kind of a very interesting story how he fell into that. Um ended up becoming a, you know, basically just wanted to meditate and do yoga and somehow stumbled into being a billionaire um and a super influential person in our society, although most people don't realize it. And so that's a very interesting story to anybody that's wanting a good read, get the surrender experiment. Um, blend a blend of I would say spirituality and entrepreneurship in one. It's very interesting.
SPEAKER_02Fascinating. All right, the last question is easy. And what we're gonna I'm gonna make you promise me is after you answer it, you're gonna feed me it when I visit you in Salt Lake City.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02So what's your favorite food?
SPEAKER_01Well, geez, man, food is my favorite thing, let's just say that. And so I think uh the next big thing I'm gonna do in life is take a trip to Italy just to eat. Um, so but I mean, yeah, in in Salt Lake City, uh there's a there's some good places. Um, we won't go hopefully out just once, but maybe a few times I can show you a few different places in Salt Lake. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right, awesome. That's good to hear. So Italian basically is your favorite.
SPEAKER_01All food is my favorite. My favorite thing is food. Uh I see. I see. Yeah, I will travel just for food, just to try it out. Um, food and local beers, and uh that's my favorite thing to do. So I'm I'm just all about it.
SPEAKER_02Well, since not everybody knows that we had this experience in Las Vegas uh at Master Kim's, what'd you think of Master Kim's?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh that's awesome. That's an awesome place. Um, Korean barbecue is always near the top of my list of good foods to try, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. I uh I got lucky to be born in this culture. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you, Michael. Uh honestly, it's always a pleasure talking to you. And you know, maybe at some other later point, maybe at the 12-year mark, if I'm still alive, um, maybe we'll do a you know a rewind or not a rewind, but version two of how things are. At that point, obviously you'll be, you know, at the hundred million dollar mark, probably with your net wealth and you know, aiming for a billion, I imagine. It'll be fun. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. Okay, thanks for having me.
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