Prime Central London - Sean Stewart and Cliff Gardiner

In this episode of Sun, Sea and Second Homes, we leave Barbados and hop over to Central London, where I heard from Cliff Gardiner of Cliff Gardiner Properties on his experience representing his clients as a buyer who specialises only in prime central London real estate.

Transcript

Sean 0:19

Hi everyone, Sean Stewart here at Stewart Co. Real Estate for another episode of Sunsi and Second Homes. Today I'm recording in an actual recording studio, very business-like, and we're going to be speaking to a longtime friend and colleague of mine, Cliff Gardner, who is based in central London and in his capacity as a buying agent with over 30 years' experience, we're going to get some insight into the prime central London property market, and we're going to touch on Barbados and property as well. So lots to share, lots to talk about. Can't wait to share it all with you. Let's get cracking. Cliff, thank you very much for joining me here on Sansi and Second Homes. I'm going to introduce you very quickly. Cliff Gardner, the founder of CGP, also known as Cliff Gardner Properties, in central London. I've known Cliff for over two decades. He is in my mind and in many people's minds one of the preeminent buying agents in Prime Central London. And I'm very fortunate to have him as a guest today. And we're going to discuss various aspects of Barbados and Prime Central London property. Cliff, welcome. Tell me a little bit about what you've been up to and maybe a little bit of a history about yourself so that people can get some perspective.

Cliff 1:47

Yeah, hey Sean. I've been an estate agent in central London for I guess over 30 years now. I started in 1989 and I started as a regular estate agent selling houses. And then 23 years ago went from poacher into gamekeeper and became a buying agent. So now I just exclusively work for buyers. I don't sell any properties to anybody. But I run around after international buyers who want access to off-market properties and the best properties in central London. And that's exclusively what I do. I've been doing that as I say for over 20 years now. And I set up on my own. I run my own business, CGP, as you mentioned. I started that in 2012, so I've been an independent buying agent for 13 years now, I guess. Okay.

Sean 2:34

And and I mean I've witnessed your the vast majority of your career, and uh far from you running after buyers, buyers are running after you. So you've been very modest there. Um I I know that you are sought after as a buying agent by uh high net worth, ultra high net worth individuals, the names of which you will never tell me. Uh, and that that's you know, I I I can understand that. Um what are you seeing the London market as at the moment? What what sort of state is it in from your perspective?

Cliff 3:07

Well, I think there's still London is fascinating as a property market to international buyers. It always has been. And obviously, people have seen what's happened with this new government that we've got. Um, they've seen changes in taxation regimes and and and people are worried, you know, they they're not they're not sure whether this is the right time to put their money in London. So they they they appreciate talking to someone like me who will give it to them straight and tell them how it is, um, completely honest and opaque. You know, I'm not desperate for that next sale next week. So I will I will I will give advice that you know looks after their best interests. So I think people like me and people who do what I do are becoming more and more sought after in London because people want to know how it really is, not just what they read in the newspapers, which can be very misleading. Indeed.

Sean 3:55

And and and to be clear, uh a buyer will routine you you are paid by the buyer, they're your client, and you act in their best interest. Is that right?

Cliff 4:08

Yeah, it's very important that they they they agree to work with me exclusively, so they become my client. They pay me a retaining fee, it's a couple of thousand pounds, they sign a contract, we agree to work together exclusively. So that when I go out into the market, you know, this is my client I'm looking out for, and there's not three other agents all doing the same thing. And it means I'm more likely to get access to properties that aren't in the open market, and people are more likely to do me a favor in approaching a seller if they know the client is exclusively with me and they are benefiting from my advice.

Sean 4:40

And those buyers are clearly motivated if they're going to be paying money to someone to help them to find a property. So they're they're pre-qualified uh way more than other buyers who may just be kicking tires.

Cliff 4:54

Yeah, I think I think what selling agents appreciate is that they they know that a Cliff Gardener property client is going to get good advice, they're going to be led in the right direction, they're going to be well briefed, they're going to have access to good lawyers, good surveyors, um, you know, the background team. So they are more likely to see a transaction through from start to finish because they know what they're buying right from the outset and they haven't been misled into an expensive property purchase that they may regret agreeing to. So, you know, we tend to get the deals through once we get terms agreed. Makes sense.

Sean 5:30

Makes perfect sense. Uh you built a career advising high net worth and ultra high net worth clients in prime central London. Uh, what are the hallmarks of these buyers and how do they differ from more traditional purchasers?

Cliff 5:44

Well, I think the clients that I've been lucky enough to work with, they're they're they're they're sort of world people, if you know what I mean. They've got properties all around the world, they've they've got great lawyers, great bankers, their their team is usually you know very well put together. Um, but they they have limited time, you know, they appreciate that when they're in you know in London, for example, they they don't want to have any of their time wasted. They want to get into the best that they can see in that limited period when they're in London. So what they like about working with um and and they're used to paying for advice, Sean. That's the key. You know, they they they they pay a lawyer for their advice, they they they pay a banker for their advice, uh, and that they they're used to paying somebody uh for the benefit of their experience and for the convenience of getting 30 years of market knowledge in a very concise, very quick manner. Um, you know, we we we I can tell them how it is, how the market is, and and and when I tell them that they're looking at the best of the best, you know, they take that as a fact. It's not just some selling agent trying to sell them something. Um that's the crux of it.

Sean 6:51

And with over three decades, you mentioned, you know, 30 years, with over three decades in the industry, what are the most important lessons you've learned about successfully representing buyers at the top end of the market?

Cliff 7:03

Well, I think ultimately, you know, if you don't believe it's the right property for them, then you you have to tell them, you know, many times I've had clients find something on the internet and they send it to me and they say, Cliff, I've seen a great property, you know, can I have your opinion on it? Um, do you think I should buy it? And um, you know, it I say no more often than I say yes. Okay, because when you've been working in the industry and in just in prime central London for over 30 years, you've seen a lot of property. Yes. So you know what the best of the best looks like. And if if we're you know, in in the recent market, you know, there's not a lot of sellers in the open market now. They don't want their property exposed to advertising and marketing. Um so they keep things off market and quietly, quietly in the sort of bottom drawers of estate agents. Um and so you know what you're seeing on Right Move and the property portals in London is not truly representative of what you can buy in London. And I think um, you know, that's what my clients, I think my clients appreciate that you know when I say something's good, they know I'm working on their behalf, they know I'm working in their best interests, you know, I'm not being paid by the seller of a property to my motives perhaps harder than it merits.

Sean 8:15

Can you walk me through your approach when working with a new client from the initial consultation to sourcing, negotiating, and completion?

Cliff 8:23

Yeah, I guess it's um it very often depends on where that client's with the the where the client is in their knowledge of London. You know, if I've got a client who knows their way around, they've perhaps you know bought properties in London before, they kind of know what they're looking for, it's a lot easier. They just want me to get them into the best properties quickly. If a client is lacking in that knowledge, then I will take them through an educational process over a matter of time that they're in London. So I'll be showing them, you know, the brief will be wide open, I'll be showing them all sorts of different houses and all sorts of different postcodes, just so they can build up their knowledge and understand why certain things fetch bigger prices than other things do. And it's that education process, again, not selling them anything, helping them understand the market in which they're buying in. And that process can take six weeks, it can take six months, it can take a lot longer at times. Yes. Um I'll give you an example, Sean. Just recently I had a client come to London who was very, very specific. There was a terrace of houses in Chelsea, and she said, I want one of those. And um, there was nothing on the open market. Um, and it was a matter of knocking on doors, literally knocking on doors, to ask if people wanted to sell these properties, and then presenting her with there were 20 houses I could have approached.

Sean 9:42

We got into five of them just literally by trawling through my contacts, knocking on these are these are properties not being marketed. This is this is literally just contacts of yours uh that you've you've you've gone through to see if there's even a chance that they would be willing to sell.

Cliff 9:58

Yeah, and this client would never have me been able to get that access on her own. Right. Um you know, she doesn't have these contacts, she doesn't have that knowledge and that experience, she wouldn't have the gumption to go and knock on a door. Um so that's an example of how a very, very specific search that can happen a lot quicker if I'm lucky. Uh, but sometimes it takes months and months and months and lots of different visits to London for someone to build out their knowledge to give them the confidence to make a you know what is a massive decision. Yeah, yeah.

Sean 10:28

And and on the negotiating side, uh obviously you then liaise with the agent uh if if the property's on the market. In the situation that you just described, uh how do the dynamics work? You you're acting on behalf of the buyer, uh does the seller uh get representation uh to to to so that they're not uh dealing directly with you or do they or do you deal directly with them? How how do they feel about negotiating with an expert you when maybe they're not an expert?

Cliff 11:09

Well, it it's interesting, obviously, a a seller will have their own agent and and and um you know I work with my client, so there's there's two separate negotiating parties there. But very often my job is to lead the seller's agent into advising his client to my way of thinking. So I will very often, if I if if we identify a property that I want to buy, I'll sit down with my client and I'll say, look, if it's if it's 15 million, it's a good deal. If we have to pay 17, it's not bad, and 20 million is too much. We'll go into a negotiation on that basis. I will then do my damnest to convince the seller's agent that 15 is the right price, and I'll provide evidence and comparables of other houses that have sold to back up my case. And very often I'll put a document together for them and say, look, pass this on to your client so his your client can see the facts that I'm working in, working with. And if you've got other facts that you think disprove my way of thinking, then I'd love to see them. So I will help the selling agent advise his client, yeah. But most importantly, obviously the interests of my client are paramount.

Sean 12:11

And and if if that property isn't on the market and therefore the seller doesn't have an agent per se, then what happens?

Cliff 12:19

Well, then it's just a matter of you know uh assessing the price that the seller wants. You know, I think off-market is often uh it's it's a dangerous area because sometimes sellers are completely unrealistic with their expectations and completely not in tune with the market. They haven't had the benefit of six months of perhaps three viewings a month and no offers to damp down their expectations and to and to make them more realistic. So very much you know, off-market properties can be more expensive than on-market properties. Um, but yeah, in the case of my client saying, I want one of those, it was very much like of the 20 houses, here's five you can buy, here are the prices they all want. This is the one that's most suitable. If we could get it for this price, it would be a good deal. And then we just try and negotiate with the seller. Again, we help them understand the market, we provide comparable evidence, we back up our bid. We don't want any sellers thinking we're being cheeky or being rude or trying to offend them, but we do work on the basis of factual evidence of market sales in the past.

Sean 13:21

When the property isn't on the market, who represents the seller or or how does that affect the negotiation?

Cliff 13:28

Yeah, and I think in that's in that case, it's up to me to convince the seller that the price that we want to pay is the price he should be accepting. And and and whether he's got an agent advising him or not, I will help him make a decision or then make a decision by providing them with factual evidence of other sales that I'm using as the basis for my negotiation. You know, I don't want to be seen as somebody who's trying to undercut people or buy properties too cheaply. You know, we'll pay the market price and very often we'll pay a premium for the right property. Um but I sometimes need to help the seller understand you know where the market really is without him having had the benefit of six months of exposure and no interest or lack of viewings or no offers, which can often help me as a buying agent bring the price down. That that's fair enough.

Sean 14:15

Um much of your business comes from referrals and repeat clients. What do you think makes your approach stand out in such a competitive market? There are lots of buying agents in London.

Cliff 14:25

Yeah, I think um it's about being effective. You know, I I I I'm lucky enough to get recommended quite a bit, and you know, I I don't take that for granted. Um it's for how my business grows. But it's because I've been effective uh and I've been tenacious and I've just got stuff done. So when you know my when my clients come to London, often for a very limited period of time, you know, I will I will drop everything. I will give up all of the time in my diary while they're here, spend every day with them, showing them different properties, helping them understand the market, um, you know, talking about local areas, giving them the facts and the information until they leave, so that they leave ready to make a decision. So I think how do I stand out from the market? My track record, my tenacity, my enthusiasm for the job. I love what I do. I never get bored of looking at houses. And also I'm I'm honest. Uh, you know, I've got a bit of grey hair, I've been around the block a little bit. You know, I I can give them advice based on real-time knowledge of what actually has happened in London on the basis of houses that I've seen and houses that I've seen selling.

Sean 15:34

And and and that's a big part of it, right? Is it's honesty and and building trust and credibility. I mean, that that surely that work both both for buying agents and for estate agents, it really comes down to the seller or the buyer or both being able to trust the source of information uh and and and uh whether that be an agent or a selling agent.

Cliff 15:57

Yeah, and I think you can only get that from being in your in your market for a long you know long period of time. You know, I've seen a lot of 15 million pound houses, I've seen a lot of 30 million pound houses over the years, and I've seen which ones sell and which ones don't sell, which ones achieve a premium and which ones just take forever. So I know what makes a great property. And you know, what what I do it is about exceptional properties. It's not about your run-of-the-mill, you know, 20 houses in a terrace of houses all the same. Yeah, it's about finding those exceptional, unique one-off opportunities. You know, a lot of my track record are pent houses and first-floor flats. That's no accident. You know, that that those are the best built uh flats in the building. Um, but it's about those great houses, you know, mid-terrace houses or or special one-off houses. Um, and you when you've got access to that type of market, um your clients really appreciate it. Fair.

Sean 16:54

I mean, what what what makes a property prime in London? And how do you define value in a market where the best homes are often off market?

Cliff 17:03

Well, I think um it's a really easy way of looking at that. Um, you know, with with houses, you know, that that there are only a really limited number of very special houses in central London. You know, we have a uh long terraces where all the houses are the same, pretty much. The only differentiation is the kitchen or the bathrooms. Um, you know, I think you know, some of these six-star developments that we're seeing in London, there might be three or four hundred flats. So it's very difficult to stand out from that crowd. There's a lot of what we call commoditized property, you know, property that you see week in, week out throughout throughout the year, these are not difficult properties to find. You know, they all that there's always a few examples in the open market on the portals, right move, on the market, Zucla. They're easy to find. You know, there's always plenty for sale. You know, what we're looking for is is is you know things that are special, things that are unique, that are exceptional in some way.

Sean 17:58

What are the main challenges high net worth buyers face when acquiring property in London? And and how do you help them navigate those?

Cliff 18:05

I think oftentimes it's confidence. You know, if you read the newspapers and and read the press, I I don't think you'd ever really buy a property, or certainly not in the last 10-15 years. You know, the the press have painted a very gloomy portrait of what's going on in the economy and what's going on in the housing market. But the prime London market just operates in its own bubble. It's not the same as the as the housing market in Leeds, or it's not the same as the housing market in Liverpool or Manchester or other places in the UK. Um, it's you know, London's a very small area, or that or certainly the areas that you want to live in in London are very small areas with very limited selections of properties. And it's helping people understand that that you know these properties hold their value, they outperform the general market, they're harder to find, people hold on to them for longer and they're more difficult to buy. So it's it's about helping people to understand that the you know the the uniqueness of certain properties or why they fetch a premium price and whether it's worth paying a premium price for certain properties. And again, that's a device it would take you 20, 30 years just to build up that knowledge yourself when you can employ someone like me who's been been there, seen it, done it, and you can give you that advice in bite-sized chunks very quickly. Absolutely. It's it's the local know-how, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Sean 19:25

I'm sure it's the same in Barbados. Precisely, absolutely. And and and as you mentioned, Barbados, just making a connection. You visited Barbados and and you you have some idea of of the West Coast. Um from your perspective, what aspects of the island would resonate most with your London clients?

Cliff 19:45

I think my clients, or typical London clients, recognize quality when they see it. You know, they they recognise something that's special. Um, and from what I've seen on some of the properties that I've been lucky enough to see with you, or just on my travels around Barbados in general, there are certain properties that just make your heart sing that you just think, wow, this is special. The plot, the outlook, the access to the beach, whatever it might be, yes, the security on offer, the quality of the build, the architecture. There are certain things. I mean, I go and look at a lot of properties, Sean, I'm I'm out every day looking at properties, and you know, one in 30 might make my heart sing. Yes. You know, that might give me a good reason to phone a client. You know, there's a lot of bross out there. And you know, I'm I'm dismissing 90% of the things that I see and just looking for that 10% or even that 5%, the top echelon. And in Barbados, you know, particularly on the West Coast, I mean, you know, some of those coastal properties are just wonderful.

Sean 20:45

Yes, yeah. And and and the same the same rules would apply. It's it's you're gonna see it and it will it will do something to you, and it will do something to the buyer. Yeah. It will say something to them. Yeah, that that makes sense. Um do you see parallels between what defines prime in London and what feels prime in Barbados? Do you see uh synergies there?

Cliff 21:08

Yeah, definitely. I mean Barbados isn't a huge island, you know, there, but then there are there are certain spots of the island that you really want to be if you're spending you know serious money. Um so it's a it's a limited market, there's very few opportunities, and um you need good advisors on hand, local advisors to help you get out gain access to these properties. Uh you know, people hold on to them long term, they don't sell them you know every year. Um so they those are the parallels really. I mean, if it was easy to buy a great property on the West Coast in Barbados, people just wouldn't need people like you. Okay, but it's not easy.

Sean 21:44

Yeah, this is true. Your clients are often globally mobile and on multiple homes. How do you see Barbados fitting into an international portfolio alongside London?

Cliff 21:56

Yeah, I mean, I guess you know, there are certain demographics of clients where you know my my clients from the Middle East, for example, aren't looking for somewhere else sunny to go on holiday. You know, they they they they they they do their best to avoid the sun, you know. Yes. Um so it I guess it's a certain demographic. Certainly European buyers would see the the Caribbean and and Barbados as a as an absolute dream destination. So you know, and certainly clients from America and and and Canada, you know, same same rules apply, you know, access to that boating life, sport on the water, great beaches, great hotels, great amenities, great restaurants.

Sean 22:34

You know, I put there's gonna be some geographic geography, uh that's gonna be a factor, there's gonna be cultural factors, I'm sure, as well.

Cliff 22:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um but uh you know Barbados has enough quality about it, you know, the golf courses, the restaurants, the amenities to attract anyone from uh you're looking for a uh you know a sunny bolt hole for sure.

Sean 22:56

Yeah, for sure. Uh Cliff, how would you describe the west coast of Barbados as someone who's only ever known London?

Cliff 23:05

Well, I mean that you know I've had some wonderful times over there, you know, on that side of the island, Sean, as you know, and um you know it it it is you know at times relaxing, but also there's plenty to do, there's plenty of action. There's some great cafes and restaurants, there's some great shopping, there's some great hotels, golf courses. Yeah, there's so there's so much to do in Barbados, and and the climate just you know, for us Brits is absolutely perfect most of the time.

Sean 23:31

Um Cliff, I mean, really interesting to get your insight and views. What what do you see the London property market doing? What sort of state is it in? How do you feel about it uh in prime central London?

Cliff 23:48

Well, I mean, if anything, uh if you know the last three months are anything to go by, then you know a lot of my clients are coming out of the woodwork. They they they can only really wait so long. If they want to do something in London, you know, reading all this, you know, all the news in the press is enough to put anybody off. But what what I'm seeing now is a very, very receptive marketplace. It's really a buyer's market. Yeah, it might seem risky, you know, with global geopolitics and all the things going on with taxation with the Labour government here in the UK, but I don't think there's going to be a better time to buy than now for a long, long time. You know, sellers are receptive, um, sellers are you know have seen pain, they've seen a lot of inactivity on their properties that are on the market, and they're listening to sensible bids now. Um and I can get into off-market properties again with sensible sellers at sensible prices. So, you know, I think I'm pretty optimistic about the rest of this year, what will happen in 26. You know, I hopefully we'll we'll we'll be more settled in terms of what's going on in the Middle East, what's going on in Ukraine, and all the other factors that influence people's confidence to spend money. You know, I think um London's always been seen as a as a safe haven, uh a great place to educate your kids.

Sean 24:59

Absolutely. I mean it's it's interesting the point you make about sellers being receptive, and and the reason I say that, uh, and and you and I worked uh alongside each other in in central London for a long time. Um and we have both experienced spells where there is to a certain extent a bit of a standoff between seller and buyer, uh, because of the the demographic and and the area in which uh uh we both worked and you still work, uh you had sellers who uh aren't at the mercy of Amor Russia, uh and you have buyers who are educated enough about buying that they're not gonna go and spend money just because they think that's what the price should be. Uh so you have you have two uh educated uh normally strong-willed opposing forces uh and and it it can often end up with uh no transaction happening because neither side wishes to budge. I've gone through that, I'm sure you have. It's not like other parts of the UK where uh the the economy starts to get tough and and an owner will say, Okay, we need to drop the price because we need to sell. Um it it's it's not that market. And and are you seeing a difference at the moment as far as sellers being a little bit more, as you said, receptive, malleable and open to offers?

Cliff 26:33

Yeah, I I hear you on this discretionary seller, you know, and and and buyers that are a little bit wary, and sometimes that gap's difficult to bridge. But what I what I've seen in the last six months to a year is that you know sellers are listening to well-qualified offers. Right. And you know, it's a my job is to give my buyers confidence or my clients confidence that you know now's not a bad time to buy, you know. So um, you know, again, if I put my report together for my for my client now and say, look, in this range it's a good buy. If we have to pay this, it's a premium, it's worth paying, or it's not worth paying. You know, sellers are coming to the table now, they're listening. Um, you know, I'm not there to buy properties cheaply or to or to scam people into selling their properties for less than they're worth. You know, I'll pay a premium for a premium property. Don't get me wrong. Um, but sometimes, yeah, sellers you know went through a phase, that phase you were referring to, of being completely unrealistic and misled by selling agents desperate to stop. Yes, yeah. And um, so they were getting bad advice there and so you couldn't uh exactly say it was all their fault. You know, selling agents desperately. Yeah, but um you know you don't win every argument, but some of you do, and the ones you do uh for the right properties um uh are the transactions you put in the book. So, you know, um I'm I'm just saying, you know, recent success, and you know, I'm having a good year this year, you know, we've we've won the battle more often than we've lost it.

Sean 28:03

Fair enough. Fair enough. Cliff, if if someone will get a hold of you, they've they've listened to you, I listen to you often. You've always got good words of advice, good sage words of advice. If someone wanted to reach you, how do they do that? What's your website address? What are your contact details?

Cliff 28:20

Yeah, the best one is cliffgardener.com. That's an easy one to remember. Gardener with an eye, guarding. I can remember that. Uh cliffgardener.com, all my information is on there. You can drop me an email and uh we can have a chat. Um, you know, as I say, I'm not gonna ram a property down your throat, but I can tell you how the market is here and and and and uh if you want to spend some time looking at some properties in London, yeah, get in touch.

Sean 28:43

Fair enough. Uh you know, it I would much rather have done this over a rum punch here in Barbados or even over a pint in London. But sadly, we are thousands of miles apart. Uh really good to see you anyway. Um thank you so much for taking the time, Cliff. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to catching up with you in person very soon. Great to speak with you as always, Sean.

Cliff 29:07

Bye-bye.