Episode #6 - Wayne Sehmish: Missionary to Thailand

In this episode, we sit down with missionary Wayne Sehmish to hear the story of a life devoted to taking the Gospel to Thailand. From the early call to missions, to stepping into a foreign culture, learning new customs, and faithfully serving over the years, this conversation offers a firsthand look at what long-term missionary work truly requires.

We discuss the realities of ministry overseas — the victories, the hardships, the spiritual battles, and the moments that remind you why the mission matters. Wayne shares what it was like adjusting to life in Thailand, building relationships, preaching Christ in a Buddhist culture, and trusting God through seasons of uncertainty.

In this episode, we cover:

• How God called him to the mission field
• Why Thailand became the place of ministry
• The challenges of language, culture, and daily life overseas
• Reaching people with the Gospel in a Buddhist society
• Stories of changed lives and answered prayer
• The sacrifices missionary families often make
• What churches can do to better support missionaries
• Why the Great Commission still matters today

This is a powerful conversation about obedience, faith, sacrifice, and the eternal value of giving your life to something bigger than yourself.

Whether you’re interested in missions, ministry, or simply hearing how God works across the world, this episode will challenge and encourage you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:20

So today we're joined with uh Brother Wayne Shemish, and he's been a missionary in Thailand for coming up on 20 years. And um I've known Brother Shemish for a little while now and love hearing uh everything that's happening over in Thailand and the incredible things that the Lord is doing there. And so we're just glad that you're here today. And uh we just wanted to do a little bit of your background, your life story, and so if you can kind of just get us started with where you grew up and when you got saved and all that.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

So all right. Uh well uh thank you for for for the chat and for uh having the time here. So I I'm from Australia, which I guess people will pick up soon enough from the accent. Um I grew up in uh Brisbane, so my family came to Australia I think about five generations ago, just just when Australia was being settled, and um they came from uh Germany. Um and the first one the first person who came was a Lutheran minist uh missionary. And so that's kind of our history. But actually, between him and I, which is probably five generations later, um there was there was nobody who knew the Lord. There's well, I can't find anything. Um so grew up in Australia, grew up in Brisbane, uh my family was uh, you know, poor, but but maybe when you look at real poverty, not that poor, but but grew up in a housing department, a government housing area. Um, you know, went to the local schools, there was no church in our area, there wasn't anything, there was thousands of homes. I mean, there wasn't even um there wasn't even a Catholic church, there was nothing. And so uh a group of believers um in the 1970s started an outreach in our area, and it was very curious. My my dad was an alcoholic, and um, you know, he would drink, I would say, every day, and uh I was 13 years old, and you know, I guess starting to follow in the family patterns, you know, starting to develop uh bad habits and a bad mouth. And um what had happened was somebody had put something in our letterbox, uh, which you can do in Australia, and uh he had picked it up, and it was uh it was like a you would say a flyer, and it said that there was a youth group starting, you know, up in an abandoned shop, uh I would say, you know, a quarter of a mile from our house. And and you know, strangely, and I I don't know why, and I and and I I guess I say thank God, he said to me, uh, you're going up there to that youth group tonight. It was a Friday night. And I said, No, I'm not. And then, you know, he said, Yes, you are. So that's how I got up there. And and I was just, I was one of the older kids, so you know, there might have been 14-year-olds, one of the older kids, and I I really played havoc with those people. I, you know, I look back, um, you know, they would do gymnastics, and so some kid would be mid-flight and I'd pull the mat away before he could land, and and think that was hilarious, and and of course it, you know, the the the people running that were very I don't say they were distressed, but they weren't pleased. I think I was the kid that that those leaders were meeting, making the decision, are we better putting him out or should we keep him? Sure. I I really think it was that. And uh again, by the grace of God, they they didn't put me out. In fact, they they loved me, and I had never experienced anything like that. And I didn't really understand uh what what that was or who who these people were. They would just call themselves Christians, and so at the end of each night they would give probably a 15 or a 20-minute devotional, and I'd never heard anything. We we never had a Bible in the house. I'd never been to Sunday school, I didn't know about the feeding of the 5,000, I didn't know about loud, I didn't know anything. And so the first time I heard them speak, it um, you know, I went very still and just listening. But it was uh probably about several months, and then they finally had a youth camp, and it was up on that camp that I went to, so it would have been a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and uh my behavior was not good. And then it was Sunday morning in a little wooden building that had probably five stairs going up to the front of it, uh, with wooden floors and wooden pews, and uh probably would have seated maybe 70 people in total. And uh a preacher preached a message on Sunday morning, and he said, if you'd like to uh receive Christ, if you'd like to be saved, if you'd like to know Jesus, was probably the the words that he used. And um people stood up and he said to come forward, and uh I felt a battle going on within that maybe a lot of people could relate to. And I again I didn't understand the forces that were at work, I I didn't understand what was happening, but I knew what I was feeling. So I stepped into the aisle, but I turned to walk out, and I got to the back door, and I got to the second step on the way out, and I stopped. And by this time the invitation was almost over, and I stopped. And one of the leaders said to me, I guess they discerned something, and they said, uh, you you do you want to go back in there and listen? And just and I said, Um, yes. And so I walked back in the back door, I walked up the front, and I knelt, or I sat on a pew up in the very front, and that's where I prayed to be saved. And you know, I didn't know anything. I didn't know you were supposed to change. I didn't know what was going to happen. I understand the theology of salvation now, but I did not understand it then. I didn't understand justification. I didn't understand that there was a Holy Spirit and that he'd come into me, you know, when I got I didn't understand any of that. Uh but what happened was very, very real. And then I changed. I just started to change, and I didn't know why I was changing. Uh I my mouth, the words I used changed, my actions changed. And uh and I wanted I wanted more. And so at the conclusion of the camp, there was another boy there, and he was a year older than me, and he he hadn't he had not prayed for salvation, but I heard some of the people there saying, so would you like to come to church? Because we'd never been to the church, we're gonna be the youth group. Would you like to come to church? And he was going, no, I'm really busy. And and I was thinking, ask me. You know, I'd like to go to church. Why don't someone ask me? And I waited, and they they asked someone else, and I thought, and I just said, I'll I'll go. If I could go, I'd go. And they they kind of looked at me, and then they said, Okay, okay, well, we could come and pick you up for church. And that was that was that was the beginning, and it was it was wonderful. I mean, it was you know, I won't take too much time, but it was just uh I'd never read a Bible, so they gave me one, and I all I wanted I wanted to read it. And so they said, uh, you know, start here in John, and so I put a marker in because I didn't know what John was, and uh, and I remember being at school and watching the clock. I rode my bike to school, watching the clock, thinking, come on, I just want to get out of here and get home and get to that Bible. And so, you know, the bell rang ding, and I ran out to the bike and peddled my way home, dropped the bike in the front yard, ran into the house, ran into my room, uh, lay down on the bed, you know, opened the Bible and begin to read. And I was just um I was overwhelmed at what I was reading. Because you know, you you understand that, you know, you're reading about Lazarus, but but imagine if you don't know what's coming.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Right? Now it's hard to do that now because you do know and you've heard it a hundred times. So if someone started reading that, you already know where this is going and what's gonna happen. Okay, but but imagine reading it and you don't know. And so all you see is, oh, his friend died. Oh, that's sad. And you don't know what's gonna happen, and then you're following, and you get to, you know, he's standing at the grave and you're thinking, What is hap, what is this? Right? And then and then you know it all unfolds, and I was just like, and I remember I remember just stopping, and I remember looking up to the ceiling and get thinking, you know. And the more I read, the thought that I know Jesus, I felt like I knew a celebrity. I I felt like I knew a famous person. How amazing this was that I knew this person. So that was kind of you know the kickoff from all that.

SPEAKER_04 10:25

Now, were your parents going to church at this time?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

No, they were unsaved and they were um borderline anti. So so them so I came back, again, very naive, thinking everybody will think this is a good thing that I've become a Christian. And uh they immediately attacked that. And um, and then I went to school. I was in one of the roughest schools in in the city. We would have police cars parked outside the school when we exited, and they'd frisk people, and they would load up in the back of the you'd see knives and and you know, clubs, and and they'd be loading up with the and so that was that was my typical environment of school. And uh so, you know, I told the other kids at school, oh, guess what happened on the weekend? You know, I became a Christian. And you know, they they just most of them mocked and they they made up names and all of that. So it was uh uh the the you know it was uh from the beginning, you either had to be real about this or not, because there was a lot of uh opposition, there was some aggression. Um people threw things at me, uh, called me names. Uh you but you know what none of it moved me. It just made me double down on I know what is true, and I know I know this, and I don't care if the whole world is against me. I I know this is true. Wow. So that was that was it, you know, birthed into right there. And um and how old were you? I was 13. Okay. So then, you know, 14, 15, 16. I was at school till I was 17, and uh was very bold in my witnessing in school and outside of school. And and again, here's a curious thing. Nobody told me you're supposed to witness. Nobody said to me, uh, now Jesus said, go out into the whole. Nobody told me that. But from from the from the moment I was saved, I wanted to tell people. It just it just and I actually believe that's the natural response to what happens when someone gets saved. The tragedy is we lose it. Right, and then we feel we just have to do this because of duty, you know, and and and then it might even become ritualized. But actually, it's it's most powerful when it just spills out from you because it's so deeply entrenched in you. And I I see this with the ties, you know, that um I've one of my men who has won many people to Christ, he is just so authentic that when he talks to people, people just lock in and they they they're you know, they just just listen to he just tells his story. So um and all of that helped me. I I think I think God was just, you know, there's people come different ways. My children were born into a family where mum and dad were Christians, and I think that presents different challenges. You know, that that it may be harder because familiarity desensitizes us. Right. So so the more familiar you are with something, the less likely you are to be moved by it. So for kids that are born into a Christian home, they've been born into something that's a great blessing, but at some point you've still got to own it yourself. Right? At some point you you you it's got to be real. And I'm not even talking, yes, salvation has to be real, of course, but it's got to be more than that. At some point you've got to say, This is what I want, and this is who I am, and I do this because I want to do this. And you've got to own that. And if you look at, you know, Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and then even Joseph, you know, they they had their moments where it had to be real for them. There was turning point moments where even though we're in a very significant family of faith, they had to own it themselves. Um, so that was the lead up to that.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

So you kind of became a witness throughout high school?

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

Um, your parents so your dad initially is the one who wanted you to go to youth group from the fire. Yes, yes, yes. But then didn't really go to church or anything on his own.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

No, and I I I'm not sure he even knew the nature of the youth group. I mean, I I I I don't I don't know. That was so curious. I don't know if he just wanted me out of the house. It might have been that. Sure. You know, I'm not sure what his motive was. Um as far as I know, he died lost. Now my my mum, my mum got saved, and I believe my mum's in heaven. Uh and and I'm not God to judge, you know, what finally happened. When you you're not there in the moments when someone's uh in their last hours, you know. Sometimes people cry out like a thief on the cross, you know. But as far as I know, I you know um he was very uh tormented. Um I I think a lot had happened to him. Uh he didn't speak of it much. There's a lot of people like that, particularly that a different generation. Now, today's generation was talk about everything, and they want a psychological diagnosis for everything. You know, everybody's looking for a medical reason why you are the way you are.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 16:06

But and and you know, but there was I think in the previous generation they just kept a lot of things in, and you never really knew, but you I could see there were the issues there. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

So you graduate from high school. Did you go to Bible college? What was your plan after high school?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

So um I f yeah, I finished high school. Well, what happened when I was 16, so just before finishing high school, um, I I used to pray. So I I it was hard at home. I shared a I shared a room with my brother, uh, and it was a very tiny room. It would be about the size of people's bathrooms now. And um so there was my brother and I, and sometimes the dog, and uh there was no privacy. It was really hard to to have any privacy. So I found a place in a corner of the house downstairs where I could I could pray. And then I I felt, I heard, I heard somebody say that you know we should pray one hour a day. And I thought, well, maybe I could do that. So I latched onto that an hour a day as a teen. And uh I felt at 16 that God now we would say God called me to ministry. You know, I felt that God said to me that, you know, you're mine and you're too, and your life will be serving me. Now, again, I didn't understand all the mechanics of that. So here's what I did. I rang up the man, because who are you gonna tell? So I I rang up the man, I walked up to the local phone box, because we didn't have mobile phones, and I put the coin in, and I, you know, and I I dialed with a his number, and I wanted to tell him that I was praying, and God, you know, I felt God tell me that he wanted me to be in the ministry. So I called him and he answered, and I told him the story that I was praying, and I felt like that. I was 16 then, and that God called me to the ministry, and I stopped telling it, and I heard him laughing at the other end of the phone. So he's laughing. And I'm listening, you know, my ears, I'm listening. And he goes, Well, you know, Wayne, uh pride is a wicked thing, isn't it? And I'm going, um, yes. He said, We all want to be the man up front, don't we? And I said, Oh. And I thought, oh, is that what this is? It's uh pride. I'm all it's I didn't realize that. I thought it was God. And I said, Oh, and he just said, you know, so that was his response.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Now there's this the devil trying to discourage you?

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah, I don't yeah, I mean I don't want to say he was, you know, I I I think he misdiagnosed what happened, and it definitely was discouraging, and and uh I but I would say this too. I would say, look, if God has said something real to you, it will not be easily pushed away by people, right? If it is pushed away from people, maybe it wasn't what you say it is. If an if an obstacle stops you doing what you said God told you, well did well maybe God didn't tell you.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Right? Because if it's real, you know, he opens and no man closes. Yeah. Right? He closes and no no man opens. So if it is God and God did say that to you, then it will prevail. It will prevail. There might be some questions, there's usually setbacks. There will, of course, be difficulties, but if it's of God, it will not fall to the ground.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

So do you feel like you had a number of challenges, difficulties you had to overcome, especially with probably little to no support from home, I would imagine, to be in ministry, and then that pastor or whoever that was not being supportive at all? Do you feel like what would be your charge to maybe some young people who are wrestling with ministry, wrestling with God's call in their life, but maybe parents are being discouraging, friends are going somewhere else, um and they really feel that pull to you know have a successful job financially or a title that means something, or try to please my parents, or I want to be with my friends. What would you say, you know, how do you know, hey, this is God's call in my life?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah, well, I mean, all of those all of those pressures can be very real and and you will feel them. Um I would say this, you you have to settle that you believe this, that God can give you a better life than you can give yourself. Now the question is uh f uh for only you only you can answer for you, but the question is, do you really believe that? Okay, because you may believe that the call of God would diminish me. I'll have less. Right? And that's why you're thinking, no, no, better I do this and I will get this much salary, and I will get this. Okay, so you have to ask yourself do you really think that God can give You a better life than you can give yourself. And if you believe that, okay, and you'll have to settle that yourself, but if you believe that, then follow that pathway, and I can tell you it will be a better life. All right. Now you think you know what you want. Okay, but actually, God knows what you want better than you know what you want. Yes, sir. Right? You think you know you, but but He actually knows you better than you know you. He can give you what you want better than you can give yourself what you want. So if you really believe that, then you know you don't have to follow everybody else. Now I know it's hard with parents because you want to be respectful. And and often, again, if parents don't share that same view that that God will give the better life, they're no doubt well intended in what they're trying to give you, and sometimes they're heavily invested.

unknown 23:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

And they don't want to see you squander what they've invested. And I'm gonna believe that most parents want the best for their children. They just sometimes don't understand what the best is. So i it's a wrestle, but I would say if you if you believe that God has called you, uh settle very certainly that that's either true or not. Okay, and if you don't know, find out or wait till you do know. But if it's true, then follow through on that no matter how difficult it may be. You cannot tie your journey to your friend's journey. Right? You can't now now it's normal for all of us. What what we how what we do with the people around us, we calibrate our life. Right? So you know sometimes to calibrate a digital compass or something, you have to move it up and down sideways to get it rightly calibrated. So all of us calibrate our thinking by the people around us in this way. If if somebody if we said um, okay, this person is tall, that only means something if we already have a reference system of heights and and and what is normal. Right? So we've calibrated already. So when someone says somebody's tall, uh, that means something to us according to what we've seen around us. So we typically, you know, that there's always there's always, you know, if you feel you're abnormal, then you're really that's a statement about you're just different to what is the most common thing. Sure. So, you know, I understand that, but you have to decide if God has really called you, I want to, yeah, I would say your life will be good and blessed, and you will never regret uh following following him and following what he's asked you to do. And if that separates you from some of your friends, uh I guess the next thing I'm gonna tell you is that when you're called of God, uh you become his in an unusual way. He owns you more than others. So here's what's gonna happen he's gonna take care of you as a matter of his personal responsibility, and he's going to do some things for you because he's separated you unto himself. You probably are gonna feel lonely sometimes. I've often said that loneliness is often on uh an authenticator of a real call because you've been pulled out to God. There's some things that only you and God are gonna do, and He's gonna it's gonna separate you from other people, and there is a loneliness with that, but that is extremely common, almost like that's a mark of a call. So that that is a factor, but it's because you're being pulled into God, you're being separated unto God in a unique way.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

That's a great point. Um so you felt the call to ministry, not mission specifically yet.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Right?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

Um so tell me about so after that phone call, do you still feel called to ministry? Pick us up from there and maybe you know when kind of what progressed from that point on.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, so you know, to press fast forward and move through reasonably quick, you understand I'm in Australia. So I'm not I'm not I'm not in America. I'm not in America where you have Bible colleges and and colleges where you can go and train for the ministry. We don't have that. There wasn't any. There was no discernible pathway, and nobody ever told you what it was.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

So, you know, here if somebody came and said, you you might say, well, uh, how about you think about Bible college, and you would lay out some some steps for them. So we didn't have any of that. So that so that was and nobody told you what you were supposed to do with that. So it's unusual, you know. So it was just the nature of Australia at that time. Um so um I thought, well, you know, whatever this is, um, I don't even know how it works out, and I don't know what that means. But um, you know, I'm fine with it. So I left school and uh I got a job, but I was attending church, and uh just unusual things happen. Like somebody would say, Um, could you, you know, speak to the youth group tonight? Well, I've never done that. And I said, uh, I guess so. And and then I would do that, and then people would go, mmm. And then they'd ask me to do it again. Or they'd say, Um, you know, um, could you do the midweek service here? And then I'd do it, and people would go, mmm. And what they were doing, they were just discerning something that God had already put there. And and what happens is that's that's one of the ways you can discern the will of God for your life, is identify what it is that God blesses in your life. All right. So if David picked up a sling and a stone, you're gonna go, oh, something's gonna happen. Because every time that boy does that, something happens. Sure. You know, like you're gonna identify patterns. So, you know, look for what is your sling and your stone. What what is it that when you do it, people get blessed? All right, what is that? Because likely that's the thing that God has given you for you to do, or one of the things. But that's a mark. That's a mark. So, you know, a few opportunities started coming up, and um and uh started attending church and God led me. Finally, uh, within a church I was attending, and there's there's you know some history leading up to all that. There was an American missionary there who'd come from America to Australia to start a church. He asked me to go with him, and so that was my first. Okay, now I'm in a local church, somewhat training, sure, but but there's no college. And uh did that, and then finally a church was handed over to me, and that was the journey. And then I ended up pastoring, and you know, we're we're we're fast-forwarding very quickly through all that, but along the way was meeting my wife and lots of other things.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

So the missionary asked you to come serve with him?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

And did he move on to another church and you kept that church? He did.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Okay, yeah, he did. And and let me say, it wasn't um it wasn't a story without challenges, and you know, he was a very unusual missionary. Um and even the church that sent him out, you know, has often now he's in heaven now, but uh but you know, said to me, Look, yeah, he was unusual. But but again, yeah, I won't tell you all those stories, but but the missionary was unusual? Very unusual. You know, I liken he I likened it as that he was the sledgehammer and I was the nut.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

And you know, I I I I probably needed the sledgehammer. Okay. But he was uh he was pretty brutal.

SPEAKER_04 30:41

Can you give us one story from the missionary?

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Well, he would just he was just very brutal, you know, very, very, very uh when I say aggressive, I mean not physically, but you know, you'd walk into church and uh you'd parked your car, you know, and and and I'd get to the door of the church and he'd say to me, You know what you need to do? And I'd go, uh, no. He'd say, You need to go and clean out your car. Your car's a stinking trash pit, and he would he would just go to town about the state of my car. And you know, it was kind of true, but it was annoying to hear it, you know. And so, uh, okay, and I mean just stuff like that. Very, very blunt and very uh, you know, I I often joke, you know, he would he would preach every Sunday, and it didn't really matter what the text was, it was always the same message, you know. So we didn't really matter where you started in the Bible, it all it all kind of went to the same place. And usually it was about gossip. You know, he'd say there are people here stink and stink and gossip. I remember him saying that again and again and again. It was quite a journey. Uh but but you know, God used him to deal with some rough edges that you know shape character.

unknown 32:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

And now I am the guy who's like, you know, keep your car clean, you know, you know, mow your grass, you know, what you know, just just the basics. Again, I didn't grow up in a Christian home, so I didn't have all that character stuff that a lot of people get taught. I didn't have any of that. You know, I I just so it was the right thing. And yes, he did leave uh abruptly and unexpectedly, and just announced it on a Sunday and said, It's yours. So I had uh probably, you know, 15 to 18 people meeting in a schoolroom in Australia. Um and hello, you have a church.

SPEAKER_04 32:42

So that was kind of I'm sure they were a little uh little pleased maybe that you were taking over the reins.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, well, it was it was an unusual journey. Now, you know, uh I I gotta say, as as he watched my life and where God took it, uh he be he was very proud, you know. In you know how I what I mean by that. I mean, he felt really uh honored that he had had a part, and I don't want to diminish his part. Um but um you know I'm I'm I'm grateful. God uses different people in your lives. Don't don't get don't get too upset about some of that stuff, you know. Like first thing you should start with, well, is it true? Well, was it true? And a lot of times it just is true, but someone was rude or impolite or you felt took a liberty that maybe they shouldn't have taken. But but you can turn that unto your own good by just getting the lesson and don't, you know, God used the donkey to speak, and you're gonna meet some donkeys in your life. And sometimes you resent a donkey telling you anything, an ass, you know, telling you anything, but don't focus on the donkey, just think about what was said. Sure. Because if it came from God even through the mouth of an ass, it's still a good thing, and you can do something with it.

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Oh, yes, sir. No, that's a great point. So you have this church, yeah, you start pastoring, yes, and then you meet your wife at some point along the line.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, I met my wife before that. Okay. Um, had that church, and um, and then uh got called to another church which became you know the most significant okay that would that was you know when people started to know who I was. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 34:35

And that was in Australia?

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yes, that was in Australia.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

So how long were you there until you got called into missions?

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah, so the last church I was uh there uh about 12 years, and um it had it had grown, it go it had started, uh it was smaller, there was uh some troubles there, uh mainly disunity, uh they were months behind in the in the mortgage payments. And God really turned up in an amazing way, and that church became uh you know one of the largest independent Baptist churches in Australia, and and I would say probably um possibly the most influential. It was a place everybody came to. It was a place that preachers that have I said their names, you know them all, um, you know, came in and preached. And so that was 12 there before I went to Thailand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:26

So the so you know obviously the Lord did it, but under your leadership at that church, it went from somewhat insignificant to being a pretty large church. Yes. That's a tough thing to leave sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Yes. Well, yes, yes, good observation. Um so yeah, so now you're the senior pastor and uh you have a staff and there's a church budget, and um you're at the peak of what you're doing. So people were leaving other parts of Australia to move their family to just get into our church and to be there. That was that was the reach of it. And and there was just a tremendous momentum. Um there was a great unity. I had I I had won most of the battles, you know, in in the in and we were just in a really good place. And um and it looked like it was just gonna, you know, get better and better and better. Sure. So yeah, that was um in fact when I when I finally when I did leave, um other preachers who um are good men, but they said to me, some of them said to me, What you know, what are you doing? This is madness. You know, nobody walks away from what you have and goes to nothing. You know, what what what is this Thailand thing? Well, this is madness. Uh there was a couple who who were particularly supportive. Um and if I said their names you would know who they were. But um yeah, and and and and again, it's understandable. And and again, if people ask those questions and that stops you from doing what you believe God has called you to do, well then did got God call you to do it? Are you gonna be the are you stopped that easily? Is that how easily you're stopped? Does the devil just have to send somebody to you and say you're mad, what are you doing? And you go, Oh yeah, I am, and forget that. Right? So if it's real, you you know you should be able to be betested. Sure. Sure. What was the name of the church? Good Shepherd Baptist Church in Brisbane, Australia. Okay. Um, so tell me about the call to missions. How did that come about? So I, you know, I'm I'm an Aussie, I'm Australian, Aussie, and I was very Aussie. I mean, just I mean, you know, uh uh my language, my my tone, you if you can hear my Australian accent now, you should have heard it before. Right? I mean, I was just really very passionate for Australia. Uh, my love was Australia. I really was not interested in any other cultures. Um I wasn't I wasn't against them. I think we had two Asian people in the church, and and that was fine, but you just have to understand the the culture of where I was at. And so I just say that to say it was very unexpected. Um and how how how the process began was as the as our church grew and many people uh were getting to know about the church and preachers were coming in and we were having larger conferences, I got an in I started getting invites from from um churches in Asia. So I'm in Australia, it's kind of our region, you know, we're in the southern hemisphere, and uh invites are coming in, and I'm I'm I'm not even paying any I'm ashamed of this, I'm not paying any s serious attention to them. And they're coming in in the forms of a letter, right? We haven't got the emails yet, that's coming. It's coming a letter. So I would just, you know, I would discard the letter. I I would not pray over it, and I would not give it any serious thought, and I would just think, I don't even know who these people are, I don't know what this is, and and I would just, you know, we used to say put it in file 13, and you know, that was the corner bin. That was the you know, and so I was you know, I'm a shame, I'm not, but that's what I did anyway. One day a letter came in, and I've got it in my hand, and I'm on my way, I'm walking to file 13 to uh to discard it, and on the few steps over to the corner, I say, now Lord, if you want me to go to this, you just tell me. It's kind of a pious prayer as I'm about to drop it in the bin in the corner. And and when I said that, honestly, I I as clear as anything, I felt God say to me, go, you're to go. And I regretted praying. I I thought I should not have prayed about this. I it was the Philippines. I I didn't want to go, and I'd never been there, and I had no interests, but but now I felt caught because I felt like I I mean I couldn't say no, that wasn't God. I knew it was God. So I thought, well. So I went and got some of my men and I said, um, uh we're going to the Philippines. And they said, we're going to the Philippines. And I said, yes. And uh they said, Why are we going to the Philippines? I said, because we have to, and if I have to go, you have to go too. And and they were like, I don't want to go to the Philippines. None of us want to go to the Philippines, but we just got to go. So that was that was how it played out. And and uh we we um we we we caught a flight from Australia, we had to change planes in Hong Kong, uh, landed in Hong Kong. Now that's my first touchdown in Asia. And I'm looking around, I'm thinking, oh my, oh my. And you and you s and if you've never been to Asia, you know, the moment you land, you smell things. This is different cooking and different foods, and and but you know, it's so different to what you're used to. I love it now, but it's just you know, and I'm thinking, oh my, what's that smell? So, so I'm already hating it, and I haven't got to the Philippines. And my attitude is not godly, you know, and so all right, then we get our connecting flight and we're flying into Cebu in the Philippines, and we're coming down, and I've never been there, and I'm looking out the window, and as we're approaching the runway, the first thing I notice is all the grass around the runway is about three foot high. You know, it's not nothing's been mowed. And I can see a cement control tower that's got all rust marks running down the side of it. I'm looking at the window and I'm thinking, oh my. And then just we're about to touch down, I look out, there's a helicopter lying upside down on the side of the runway. And I'm thinking, oh God, what is this place? The runway felt like it had bumps on it, like at a shopping centre. So we got out, and I'm just thinking, oh no, you know, I and we step out of the plane, and now I can smell the Philippines. I don't even smell it now, and now I can smell the Philippines, and my attitude is not good, and we get through and I'm standing with my little suitcase, the guys come to pick me up, and there's all this thing that goes on in Asia, and I'm just, you know, and so he pulls up, hello, Pastor! Hello, brother. And uh I get in the front, he's driving, the men are in the back, and and he's talking, and I don't know what he's saying. And here's what happened from the drive from the airport to the hotel, I'm looking out the window, and I'm seeing things I've never seen in my life. And and and I'm looking, and and I'm thinking, oh my. And I'm seeing, I'm seeing people who are living under tin, uh, living, you know, on the muddy banks of a creek that stench, and I'm seeing little children run around unclothed, I'm seeing old ladies sweeping the street. I'm seeing things I've never seen before. And and my driver's talking, and I don't know what he's saying. And as I was looking at that, you know, my eye affected my heart. As I'm looking at that, I I tear up. And I remember saying to myself, You're wicked. You are just wicked. What a wicked attitude. And I was broken before I got to the hotel. And so we went to the meeting, we had a Wonderful meeting, God moved powerfully, that affected me. And that was a moment of that was the beginning of I'd always supported missions. I'd always led a church supporting missions. But but I did it out of duty. I I can't say I felt it, but that's okay. You don't always feel everything, but do it anyway. But but now I was feeling it. So then I started to accept some invites to preach in Asia, and it was always blessed. And now God's changing me. He's just changing me. And um how Thailand happened is um the beginning. So I'm preaching in um, you know, I'm in Hong Kong and I'm in the Philippines, um, and I'm in uh Cambodia, and I'm preaching in Papua New Guinea and all of these places, you know. I'm preaching. Well, one time on a, I think it was a trip to Cambodia, I had to go in via Thailand. Now I didn't have any, I I'd never preached in Thailand, didn't know anyone in Thailand, and Thailand's 96% Buddhist, 3.5% Muslim, about so I land in Thailand, and it's fine, I go into Cambodia, but on the way back, um, I've got about 12 hours to catch my Australia flight. So I'm in I'm in the Thai capital, and um I'm thinking, well, you know, I've got 12 hours. Uh Starbucks, there'll be one somewhere. Let's get a coffee. So I I I go to a Starbucks, I'm sitting there, there's Thai's, we're in Thailand, and uh I'm looking out the window, just kind of looking, and I'm not thinking anything about Thailand. I just not entered my mind. I'm just transiting, I'm on my way back home. I'm looking at the window, something happened, and and I'm watching it, and I heard a voice say to me, Oh, uh, do you do you know what happened outside there? It was they spoke English. And I turned and I said, No, what was that? And he he told me, and so now I'm talking, I've got a discussion with a Thai who can speak English. So then I say, Um, so you're Thai, yes. And I start asking, you Buddhist? Yes. And I say, Where do you work and what do you do? And and tell me about the temple, and do you go? And so the guy's dressed in a shirt and tie, and he says to me, so he talks to me about 30 minutes. Now, this beginning of like my eyes are starting to see things now, not in a tourist way, but but in a deeper way. And so he says, I've got to get back to work. He said, but um, you know, I finished work at six o'clock tonight. He said, if you want, I'll meet you back here and I'll walk you around and I'll show you, you know, and I'll walk you the town and I'll explain everything to you if you're interested. And I said, Okay, let's do that. Well, I was supposed to fly. So I rang my office and I said, Listen, uh, I'm uh get me a hotel somewhere for a night and change my flight. You could do that then, change my flight till tomorrow. I'm gonna stay a night here and I'll come back in the morning. And they said, sure, Pastor. And they worked all that out. So from there, you know, now I'm starting to see some things, and you know, to speed it all up, I uh then when I would come back, I would stop over to see this person and and you know, and and spend a day in Thailand. Well, um, he had a friend called Joe, and his friend Joe couldn't speak any English. So we were out eating one day, and he says to me, This is my friend Joe, and I say, Hello, Joe, and he says, He doesn't understand English. And I said, Oh, well, can you tell him hello, Joe? And so he I would speak, and then he would speak in Thai, and then Joe would speak in Thai, and he would tell me the English, and I'd say, Um, uh, how old is Joe? And then he would ask him, and Joe would answer, and that's how that went. So that's how I met Joe, and who, you know, so so now stuff's starting to happen. So, how did you get called to Thailand? So the answer is progressively. All right, a lot of times the will of God. God already knows what what it is, but he shows you progressively. All right, so so imagine that you know the it's as clear what he wants you to do, but it's behind two curtains that he's gonna start to pull back slowly, and he's gonna start to show you pieces and and and and he's gonna affirm it progressively. All right, and often, and I would I would I would take you to you know 1 Samuel 9 when Saul met his Samuel that that there was a progressive nature. So there was a progressive uh working of God in my heart, and I'm starting to go up there more. And then I took my wife up there, I said, come and have a look. Again, not thinking. Now my people are saying, Oh, we can see it, we we know what's gonna happen. You're going to Thailand. And I said, No, I'm not. You know, I'm I'm not going anywhere. Yes, it's gonna happen. I know it's gonna happen. And everybody else was identifying this really before I guess I should have seen it, but but I wasn't thinking that. And then it just sort of came step by step by step. Finally, I I discerned this seems to be I I just felt God telling me that He wanted me to go. But again, I was very careful with that. I didn't respond quickly because I have watched people make emotional decisions based on a feeling, a moment, and and it was scripturally we'd say it was soulish but not spiritual. So it wasn't flesh, but it wasn't God. Right? And there's a different, you have to discern that that's the hardest one to discern. It's n it's easier to discern flesh and spirit, but soul and spirit is a harder. Right? So the men of old would talk about things being soulish. We don't use that word much anymore, but what it means is you know, it's more mental, emotional rather than spiritual. Now those things are not exclusive, sure, but you've got to be careful.

SPEAKER_04 50:10

So kind of progressively, and then you you tell your church that you're going to Thailand?

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Yeah, and people's there's audible weeping breaks out across the auditorium. Uh there's gas, there's crying. Um you know, we were never planning to go. We love those people, and they loved us, and and uh but but God had given me a man that I've been training, and so he was he was right and ready. And uh he ended he ended up becoming the next pastor and did and did well. Um so yeah, that was I remember the last night, you know, you preach your final Sunday night service, you're shipping out at Monday morning, and just a queue of hundreds of people standing in line. And they're crying and they're hugging us. And nobody's saying don't go, but everybody wishes it wasn't happening. Sure. You know, it was it was that. So, yeah, a lot of feelings. How many people would have been in the church when you left? Uh I think we'd had like big moments of maybe 500, but you know, for Australia that's probably like thousands equivalent to what you'd have over here. Most most independent Baptist churches in Australia were probably running 50 people. No one had really broken much out of that. There was a couple that were more than that, but but um it was just yeah, for Australia.

SPEAKER_04 51:40

So when you left to Thailand, did you have any did uh in no kids yet?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Uh had had all the kids. Oh, they're all okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

Yeah, so you're moving your whole family there.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

Well, two of the kids are teens. Okay. Um, and Curtis, my youngest, was just a little boy, so he's like six. Okay. So Curtis is going. I discussed with the other two um what do you want to do? They're in their latter years of schooling. I said, Do you want to you know come to Thailand with us? Or, you know, do you want to finish out the schooling here and you stay in the home and you stay at the church and you stay at the school? What do you want to do? So they opted to stay. My son ended up coming up again you know and back and up a couple of times, but um they opted to stay. That was hard. That was that was very hard. So you're not only leaving your church, you're leaving. Yeah, and and you know, I've often agonized, was that the right thing to do? Because my son, my older son, particularly I think he's settled it a bit now, but particularly wrestled with that. And and I would say, and he wrestled with it because he didn't want to come, but he didn't want us to go. Sure. And he just he just was in a, you know, and I I and I think should I have just made him go? Should I have just said I ended up flying back and getting him, bringing him up, but then he asked me, could he go back? And he just hated it. And so it was that it was hard. And I I I don't know, you know, was it I I I don't know. I I wonder should I have waited a couple more years? But then you're gonna stand all the people I met who are now the foundational in our ministry, all all would not have even been when I arrived. It was that the timing was that precise. Wow. Um, they wouldn't have even been, I would never have met them.

SPEAKER_04 53:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Yeah. So start us off in Thailand and meet Joe and Yeah. So uh yeah, arrive in Thailand, um, never went on deputation, um, have our home church helping us and one other. So um we arrive and you've gone from having you know a ministry, a budget, a staff to nothing. You have nothing. I would liken it to like a you know, a senior pastor in America packing up and moving to the other side of America to become a plumber. And he's just starting again. And he doesn't know anything and anybody. And it was it was a so it was a it was a it was different to what to how it had been. Um we we didn't have a car. We we didn't have any money for a car. We lived in a very small, very small little apartment. Uh we got around by walking or catching a bus or catching a train. Uh my wife would walk to buy groceries and walk back. And you know, but we didn't feel hard done by, but but that was just it. That was just it. We didn't we didn't have anything. So we we did that for like uh uh probably uh a couple of years, and then um I had I had uh led Joe to Christ, uh finally won Joe to Christ, and um so now I'm you know spending time with Joe and I'll tell you what happened. So we're about two years in or one and three quarter years in, maybe. You know, it's hard to time blur's for me. And I went to the ATM machine, you know, to see if we had any money. And we're and we and and then you had to put a card in and punch in your only way you get your money. There was and so I I put the card in and I punched the number in and had a screen, and I'm looking at it, and it's it's Thai baht, so it's not and I'm looking at the screen, and we shouldn't have had anything, and the screen says uh like some massive figure, like you know, eight hundred and fifty thousand Thai baht. And I'm thinking, what?

SPEAKER_04 55:53

How many bot to a dollar?

SPEAKER_02 55:55

So that would it the equivalent was about twenty five thousand US dollars.

unknown 56:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

That was that was around about that. And I'm looking at it like and I say, Joe, uh, can you see the screen? And so he comes in and looks and he goes, and I'll go, I said, Joe, don't touch it. The banks made a mistake, and if you use that, they're gonna want it back when they find out whose it really is. And and and I don't think it's us. I said, Joe, what's that figure? Can you read that to me again? And so he tells me, well, it turned out, it turned out um that somebody over here who I had not even spoken to, um had just made a decision, and I can only put it down to the Lord to just transfer into our bank account that amount of money. So we bought a car. That was it. That was that was a vehicle. So we bought a car, and thank God for them, you know, and um so the Lord was just starting to do things like support-wise, somebody would just feel without us being on deputation, uh, I think we should help the shemishes in Thailand. And so, you know, it just kind of started to happen like that. And it still is that way. We it just, you know, it just happens when it happens, you know. Sure. Um, and you can trust God, you know, he doesn't make any mistakes.

SPEAKER_04 57:29

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

So, yeah, I won Joe to Christ. And um Can you tell us the story really quick about Joe? So Joe, so Joe was Buddhist. Uh Joe, when I first witnessed to Joe, Joe was very aggressive. Okay, Joe, Joe, out of all the ties I've witnessed to in 20 years, Joe was the most aggressive. In fact, Joe wanted to fight me on the street. Now, Joe's about, I don't know what his height, he's probably four foot something, but it got really ugly. And so in his broken English, he's saying, I fight you. You, me, fighting. And I'm like, what? And I'm thinking, I no, I don't know what you do with, you know, what and and and we're in a shop, you know, and I'm thinking, and he's yelling, and everybody's looking around. He's aggressive. He gets very embarrassed when I tell this now, because he feels so ashamed. But um, and I'm thinking, this is gonna get ugly because if if he starts fighting me, I'm a foreigner and I'm not four foot, I'm six foot something, and it doesn't matter if I win or lose, I lose. You know, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be taken away in handcuffs in a Thai jail. And I knew this is very ugly, and and I didn't know what to do. So I said, No, I'm not fighting you. Yes, yes. And I stood up and I turned to walk out the door, and I'm thinking he's gonna run and jump on my back, and he's gonna start punching me. And so I I walked out, got out the door, and he didn't jump on me, and I got away, and I thought, I never want to see this person again. I never ever want this to happen again. And uh so um I just I just you know cut cut all contact with him. And uh over it was just been a few days, I was on the airport heading somewhere, and uh he phoned. I saw the phone number come up on my phone. I thought I'm not gonna answer this. Anyway, I did. And I said, I was a bit aggressive, hello? And I hear, I sorry. I sorry. And I said, You're sorry. And I remember he probably didn't understand anything I was saying. But anyway, so we'll we're back, and then um I just waited, you know, and I'd I'd given him a track, he'd pushed it away and yelled at me and told me he was a Buddhist. He was very aggressive. And uh we we went, it was probably about a year with Joe, or or maybe a bit longer, and uh he was a good friend, and I'd helped him. By now he's seen my heart, he's starting to, and I'm feeling he's still lost, you know, he's still lost. And so I said to him one day, I said, Joe, uh, I have something very important to tell you. And he said, uh, what is it? And I said, Well, if I tell you, will you listen? And he said, Yes, I listen. I said, Are you sure? Yes, tell me. I said, I'll tell you soon. And so I waited a little while, it's the same day, and he came to me and said, What is it? You say you're gonna tell me, but you not tell me. And I said, Well, will you listen? I listen, I ready? Tell me. So I sat down with him, and uh I had very limited tie at that time, and I took a piece of white cardboard and a big black marker pen, and I begin to I had a Thai Bible that I couldn't read, but I could find places in it, and so I told him, I said, I remember I started, Joe, there's a God, and he just looked at me, you know, and I said, And God made us. And he'd never heard that. Now he told me after, and I know now when he witnesses to people, he's he's one of the best. If you ever want somebody to witness to a Thai person, Joe's it. I mean, he just is so, you know, good with that. But he always he always starts the same way by telling them where they came from. And what he told me after he got saved, he said to me, you know, my whole life, he was only 20, he said, my whole my whole life, I wondered where I came from. He grew up in a village in Thailand. And he said, I asked my parents, where did we come from? And he said they didn't know, they couldn't answer. And he said, they said, go ask your grandparents. And so he went and asked his grandparents, where do we come from? And they said, I I don't know, we don't know. And he said, I always wondered, where do we come from? He said, and when you told me that God made us, I thought, why is it that I don't know the God who made me? How can somebody make me but I don't know who that is? So that was kind of a hook for him. So I laid out the gospel. I finished, took about 30 minutes, and now you've got this giant piece of white cardboard with stickmen figures and snakes wrapped around trees and the cross and what Jesus did, and it's all there. And I said, Joe, uh so that's it. That's what I wanted to tell you. And he's sitting there really moved, and he says, Well, uh, what can I do? And I said, What do you mean? What can you do? And he said, Well, what can I do about all this? Like, can I become a Christian? And I said, Well, uh, you could if you really wanted to, but don't do it for me. I I I loved him too much to want a false profession. That damages people. Yeah. That really damages them. Because they think they are and they're not. And you walk away and say, you know, I led seven today to Jesus like a notch in a gun. If it's real, it's wonderful, but you need to be careful, particularly in the third world. I said, You can, but you need to do it for you. I said, just take some moment to think about it and let me know. So we're in the same room, and I go to my desk and I'm working, and about 20 minutes he says, Okay, I ready. I said, Okay. So that's how he got saved. And then uh now his mother and father are Buddhists. He doesn't want them to know. He's scared that he's going to be cut off from the family, which a lot are. He goes back to the village. Now we're, I don't know, two weeks after salvation or something, or days. He goes back to the village, he rides a bus. Uh it takes 12 hours, you know, on a rickety bus to get back to the village. He arrives home at the village, and his mother and father say, uh, oh, the whole village today is going out to the spirit lady. So every village has like a medium, and all the people will gather around her or him, and the medium says, people say the spirits come into her, and it's demonic, is what it is. Spirits come into her, and then she will speak things, and they will ask her for advice or what to do about a health thing, and it's kind of like uh the whole the whole village assembles, and they do this regularly. So they've they already everybody knows everybody, it's a few hundred people, and so he gets home, and mother and father says, We're going to the spirit lady, the whole village is assembling, you know, you need to come with us. And so they all go, there's hundreds of people around this woman, and she begins to tilt her head and jerk her head, and her eyes roll back in her head, and and uh the the men have told me, they said she was a she was about eighty, they said, We have seen her run that a a teenage boy couldn't catch her. We saw we've seen it. So she's there and she starts making these uh you know prophetic things, statements, and the whole it's hundreds of people listening. And then in the midst of it, she lifts her hand up. Finger and she points to Joe in the crowd. Now he hasn't told anyone. And she says, What are you doing here? You're not one of us? And the whole village is looking at Joe and they're looking at her and they're going, No, this is Joe. You know Joe? Joe's Joe's always here. It's Joe. And she's going, You're not one of us.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:33

Everybody's looking at Joe like, what's going on here? What what what is all this?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:39

And he sort of sleeked out through the back of the crowd and and and got to the back. Now he came back and told me all that. What was happening was the demons in her was recognizing the spirit of God in him. That's what was taking place. Now it happened again when I led another man to Christ, who was the gang leader. Yeah. When he went back. Same thing happened with a there was a new uh spirit leader person. So uh that was Joe. Uh Joe now is you know pastoring our church. Now I never knew all this. I never knew this was God's plan, but I never knew that. You might have thought, well, weren't you thinking when you led Joe to Christ that no, I wasn't thinking that. Sure. I wasn't, but God, God had the whole plan.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:30

How so is that that's the case across Thailand with those those mediums like that?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

Yes. So you know, in um in Daniel it talks about like the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Grisha. That that's talking about entities, like spiritual entities. And uh there there, I believe there are countries that have long been in the devil's grip. Um and so um Thailand says, they say, that there are two demonic spirits that rule over Thailand. And when I say that, they say it right through to the head of the government. In fact, I've seen the government on TV saying to Thais, you know, I warn you about your behavior, because there are two spirits and they have names for them and they have statues of them that rule over Thailand. And if you do this, they will so so it's it's universally accepted that that's who rules Thailand. How long has that been the uh uh uh hundreds of years at least, you know, uh maybe more than a thousand, but it goes back a long way. So, so uh you know this there's a lot of curious things happen up there. So once a year, there's a large river, very large, that separates Thailand from Laos. All right, and so you know it's it's you can see Laos on the other side, but it's it's really big. It's it's large, and uh it's not we're not doing a little cricket, it's a big, big, big river, brown and flowing and large. And so once a year they say that there is a a serpent that lives under that river, and once a year he spits up fireballs that come up out of the river, and and you can see it if you go there at this certain time. Alright, so it's called they call it the Naga N-A-G-A. You can you can Google it, you can look it up, the Naga fireballs. So um people have never been able to explain it. So there's pictures on the internet, and I I've been up there and I'll tell you what happened when I was there. But um people have never been able to explain what is this. So some people say it's got to be man-made. There must be little people under that river somewhere doing something that is doing this. But that river flows so strong and is so deep. There's no way that that is true. Other people say, well, it must be like a methane coming up from rotting vegetation that's igniting, and but why does it only happen like three days a year under certain, you know, when they say it just it it defies logical understanding, except that it's spiritual. Um so we went up there, um and there was so there's thousands of people on the riverbank, everybody they're all ties, and they're all waiting to see this event take place, see all these fireballs start coming up. They're about that that round, and people can't see us, but maybe So you've actually seen these things? Yes, yes. Wow, yes, yeah, lots of people have. Wow. I would say millions. Wow. And um so uh we go up there and um we start handing out tracks. So we we've taken up thousands of tracks, and we're walking amongst all the ties, because there's thousands of ties there, and we're giving out gospel tracts, and we hear them saying, uh nothing's gonna happen because they're here. Now this is now this is not gonna happen because the Christians, look at this, it's not gonna happen. And sure enough, right where we were, with those thousands of people probably sitting over uh, you know, three-quarters of a mile along the riverbank, thousands and thousands of people sitting there, we're giving out tracks, nothing happened there. Now, it did happen further up the river and further down, but but not there. Listen, uh my point is this there are things that take place there that it tells you who has ownership over that place. And it's it's it's discernible when you're there. And and all of this, we we have demon-possessed people just crying out in the middle of services. Like people who were rational in their village, uh, like ladies, all throw themselves, they're on the ground and they're moving and hissing like a snake. And and the rest of the their own village is looking shocked, like, what what what is this? But we we know what to do, and therefore they then see the deliverance and what happens. We we have seen things that look a whole lot like the book of Acts. Now, the reason I think it's that way, now we're not trying to, you know, I don't want sensation, and I don't tell a lot of these stories because I don't want to, you know, I I I think there are some things that you speak of, there are other things it's not lawful to speak. Sure. Right? You God showed you, but it's not meant for you to uh, you know, people will say, tell that story about, but you know, some of those stories I don't want to tell.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:16

I sure but anyway, um I also feel like though some kids or even adults in the United States, when you hear that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, against principalities and powers, to that, that just to them it just seems like yeah, that's not real for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:32

Yeah, I yeah, you know what I mean? I do know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:34

And I think the I think Satan has different strategies here that work maybe even better than that would work. Correct. Maybe through music or the university system. I mean they have way more effective ways here than maybe in you know obviously in Thailand being third world country, people you know maybe don't have the those influences. So that's just much more tangible over there.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Yeah, I mean yes, well, yes, I agree with you. I I you know he you he just uses what's effective. Sure. You know, the the devil by nature is a creature of darkness, he doesn't want to come into the light. The light clarifies things, you can see what it is. He rather he stays in the shadows. So what works for America is working perfectly well.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:20

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

He doesn't need to do that. Uh but there's a lot of uh look, the the demonic influence in a lot of places in Asia, and I'm sure it'll be true in Africa, is just so prevalent and so real. There isn't anybody there who doesn't believe in it. Now I would liken it to I've been coming to America on and off, I don't know, three decades, you know, once once or twice a year. Short trips in and out. But all the time I've been coming here, um I've never seen a deer in the wild. You know, D E E R. I've never seen one. Now, if I say to Americans, do you have any deer? What do we have them? They're they're everywhere. And uh, well, where are they? Well, well, they're everywhere. Well, have you ever seen one? Of course we've seen, we've all seen them. Oh well, I've I've never seen one. Oh, well, you've never seen them, I'm telling you, they're here, you know, right? So so I mean, you go over there and there's just some things we all know is there. Sure. We all know. You might come in and say, Well, I've never seen that. Okay. Well, we're not going to put on a show for you. Sure. And I don't think the devil cares if you've seen it or not, but but I tell you it is there. I tell you, I tell you it's there. It's ever it's everywhere. Sure. But but you rightfully said there are different strategies work in different places. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:43

Well, also makes you think about like even those things that were happening in New Jersey where people were seeing those lights coming out of the ocean. Right. Kind of somewhere. Right, right. And uh they didn't really know what those were either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very fascinating. Yes. Um, yeah, so let's just get right back into it. So you kind of the way I was leading you here is you know, you're the first, maybe Christian influence, at least in that time period. Um how strong was like the spiritual opposition to you being there?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

It the spiritual opposition to to this day is is strong and is significant. So so I mean that's definitely there. Um you know, got God takes care of us and helps us. I think I think the it manifests itself in in terms of what it does to the missionary in um in in the mind. You know, there's a mental assailing, it's hard to explain. And I'm not trying to like sensationalize it, but like I'm just saying, you know, from like a legitimate.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:54

Yeah, well, it's there. You know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:56

Yeah. No, no. I mean it's it's there. There's you you know, a lot of a lot of missionaries come undone mentally there. Um it it really is there. Uh there was a missionary I spoke to um and interviewed. Have you heard of Jay Oswald Saunders? Yes. Okay. Well, he was a driver.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:18

He wrote a book, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:19

Yes, on spiritual leadership, that's well known. So, and some others. He wrote a lot of books. But he was the head of a mission group. Well, this guy was actually his driver for a period of time. So we had a really interesting chat about what that was like. But anyway, he was in Thailand for a period of time and uh as an OMF missionary, and uh and uh he has some interesting stories. You know, he's an older man now, probably uh late 70s, and uh he was an Australian and uh he he told me or he told Joe that when I think Joe said, Why did you finally leave Thailand? And he said, I had to, my son was going insane. Now, now I there there are others, obvious obviously this is you know, people don't want you to name their names and talk about my family, but this is not an unusual thing that happens. And I would say to people, if you're praying for missionaries in Third World in dark places, let's just say that, really pray about that. God, would you protect their mind? Would you would you help them to not you know lose their mind, to stay clear-headed? Um, because you know, you hear voices and you're like, is this real or is this I mean, just a lot of things happen. And it's very common. Uh it's just very common. And it's hard to explain because when I when I leave over there, and like for example, if I land in America, I know you have your own challenges, but it but it it it just feels different. You do not feel the same spiritual oppression. And I don't feel it in Australia either. I don't I don't even feel it in Japan. If I land in Japan, I I I don't feel it in Japan either. But you definitely feel it when you go, and even the ties will say that. It's discernible. It's discernible, it's definitely there. Um so you know that that that that's just an ever-present reality, and I guess it's a testimony to the grace and the goodness and the keeping power of God that after 20 years, um, you know, we we're still we're still going and people still getting saved and God's working. But all ties understand this, and all Christian ties understand this, that it uh it's just it just is there. Looks a wonderful place, and if you go there on a you know a holiday to Phuket, you might not quite experience what I experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:50

Right, and and in one way is the travel culture has probably damaged people's perceptions of missions because they think because I well I w Thailand, I I went there in a hot wasn't the food good, honey, and remember, wasn't that a lovely swimming pool? And oh, we had a wonderful time. Well, I I'm I'm glad you did. Yeah, but life as a missionary is very different to your two-week holiday where you went somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:18

The devil knows you're leaving, yeah, you know, doesn't really care. It's very different for those of us who are there and trying to achieve some things spiritually for the Lord, you enter the combat zone. Yeah. That's different.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:35

So uh you've been pastoring in Thailand. Um tell us about maybe some of the, you know, you know, obviously the glory to the Lord, but like what are some of the maybe the big, you know, maybe breakthroughs you had in Thailand or how is the Lord's blessing even today in your ministry there?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:56

Look, the the i i it has there's been many things. Uh, you know, seeing people come to Christ and the profound change that takes place in their life and the the miracles that manifest in their life is is quite wonderful to see. Um there's a lady in our church uh who grew up in a mountain area between Thailand and Cambodia with her grandmother in a jungle. And there was her, her grandmother, a few others, and the dogs. And she told me her grandmother taught her uh that if the dogs go quiet and their ears go up, everybody's to go immediately still. Watch the dogs, because the dogs can discern the tigers and the elephants. So elephants still kill people in Thailand every year. There's it's it's regular, right? They just get they're wild and they kill people. Um so uh she grew up there worshipping spirits, uh demonized. I mean, I try to speed through it. The army came up, said you can't stay up here anymore, you've got to go down to a village. She went down. Um, just just really uh serious issue with with uh with demons, um, major mental illness, um, uh married, would go crazy, try to stab her husband in the night while he was sleeping. Um they had her on you know bucket loads of medication. Her family all said she's demon-possessed. These are all Buddhists. She's a Buddhist, they're Buddhist, and her Buddhist family say she's demon-possessed. They take her to the temple to try to get help. The monks chant over her, it doesn't help. Uh that's shocking, right? Yeah. Yeah. How many people know that it didn't get better? Yeah. So now she's a mess. Um, it's getting worse and worse. She gets tricked, she gets sold into people's slavery in an Arab country. So she thinks she's going to a job, they grab her passport, they lock her away, they do things to her that I wouldn't say for like a couple of years. Miraculously, she gets out, she gets back to Thailand. Their life's a wreck in every possible way. She has a child that they've been, government's taken off her, a boy. They said you're unfit and you're crazy. So I go to preach a meeting, I know they're in the area, I've known them for numbers of years, and I say, Look, I'm in the area, once you come see me, they do. Um, you know, this many things happen. Finally, at that meeting, she she gets saved, and her husband, I'll never forget it. It wasn't it wasn't an outreach meeting. We were training Christian workers. I was preaching for another group, and and the invitation was for Christian workers, and she's sitting there and she just threw herself forward, she's sobbing, she's sobbing on the floor, looking up, you know. So she gets saved, uh, says to her husband, um, we have to go to where he is, you know, in Nakantsawan, which is hours from where we were. He says, We can't do that. We have no work, we'll starve.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:15

And she said, We have to.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:17

And so they move. God just just delivered her uh and changed her, and she would go back to the doctor with her bucket loads of medication, and they would say, You know, you you seem to be better. Let's just bring this down to half. And then she'd go back the next month and they'd say, You know, you seem to be pretty normal. Let's just bring this back to a quarter. And then she'd go back again and they'd say, I know, I don't think you need any of this. And I mean, no, she's had a lifelong condition because it was demonic. And and she's she was mental because it was she was possessed. So she just changed, and she's the most wonderful Christian lady. She's there, she's prayerful, she's probably praying for me now. And uh the government calls up and says, We think it's time for you to have your son back. And so um, husband saved, she's saved, and there's the day they walk the boy in. And he runs to his mum and dad, and he cries and he hugs them, and she cries and she hugs them, and um they they've been together, they both serve the Lord, they've won a lot of people to Christ. They live right near the church property, and uh, it's just miraculous. It's just mira, and I've seen again and again, so all of that is just very, very wonderful. And you gotta stand, all these people are Buddhists, so they've never been to they've never, they have no Christian background, they've never met anybody who was a pretend Christian, they've they've never encountered hypocrisy before. So everything to them, they only know one way, and that's real. So when they sing in church, in our church, everybody sings. They've never been in a church where people don't sing. They they wouldn't understand, they don't know what feigned faith is, they only know what real faith is. Nobody schooled them how to pretend. Nobody schooled them how to play the game. They never never saw any of that, never seen that. They only know one way, and that's really good for us because we get to decide what kind of church we're gonna have, and we keep it very real. So they cry, you know, people sing the songs and then they think they actually think about the words, imagine that. And then they start, they cry and they look up to him and uh they pray and it's very real. And just to see all that, you know, when I left Australia, I remember thinking, what I have experienced here in these past 12 years. I told my wife, I said, These have been the greatest years of our life. I said, honey, we will never see this again. We'll never see it again. This will never be repeated. And you know, now after 20 years, I walk around the property, and this, you know, we could be here for hours about how God did all this. I walk around the church property and the buildings, and we have people that live on site, and I look at all that God has done, and I stand there at night sometimes, and I look up and I say, You did it again. You did it again. And he did. He did it again. You know, it's real. God, God is real. Uh the power of God is real. God can do it in your life, he can do it in the life of those listening. You know, you just have to believe. No, God God is not diminished in any way. He's he's able to do it. It's just us. The problem is us. The problem is not him, the problem is us. We just stop believing. Or we don't believe like we should. You know, there's lots of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:05

That's a blessing. That's a blessing. In a moment, I want to ask you just about the future for Thailand. Yeah. When you think about, which I've heard a few of your stories, and you have some incredible ones. When you think about the most just unbelievable situation you have found yourself in, which I've heard, even since you've been here the last couple of days, you've you've said a few stories. If you can just think of one story that stands out above the rest about, you know, you know, I don't want to give anything away, but it just any of the stories that maybe stand out above all the other ones about just some incredible encounter you've had, or um, you know, you mentioned the one where you you got shot at, or you know, some you you said something about the snakes as well. What is like one thing you're like, this is just you know if you weren't there, you wouldn't believe it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:05

You know, I I I don't know what to say. Here's what happens it becomes normal. Sure, you know, like so. So, you know, what other people are like, oh wow, you're just like yeah, I mean, it's you don't diminish it, but it's like, well, we just live with that. I mean, that's just that's just there, you know, that just happens. Um, you know, we've been delivered from multiple uh occasions where things could have got really bad. Um, lots of you know, things have happened. Um what I've appreciated here is is that God is wise to the dangers even more than I. So sometimes I will get in a situation, and you know, you you really couldn't have known, or maybe you could have some of it, but but the Lord just knew. We were driving back one day, and you know, this has been a hundred things, but we were driving back one day at night uh from a meeting in the country, and we saw it was late at night, I'm gonna say about 10 o'clock, and we're on country roads in the north east of Thailand, and we saw the the tail lights of the vehicle in front sort of move, you know, like it swerved around something and kept going. And and a couple more minutes up the road, we get there's a motorcycle lying on the road with a woman wrapped in a in a car had knocked her down, is what had happened. So she's laying on the road under this bent-up motorcycle, and uh and our lights hit the road, and I say, Stop, stop, I'm with two of the men. I say, stop, stop, there's somebody on the road. And so we stop, and I can see I can see a pool of blood uh behind her head. I hope this is not too graphic, and her parts of her body are twisted up into the motorcycle. So there's nobody there. So I she was uh she would have been in her 30s. So I run out, and our car lights are illuminating the road. I run out, and I get down on the road, and um, and I I um I try to pick up the motorcycle and get it off her, but but the moment I move, she uh you know, she just makes oh she's all caught up in the motorcycle. So uh I found her phone and she had a little old knock-ear phone and it's covered in blood. So I pick up the phone, I said, Joe, go through the phone, find the last number she called or something, call somebody to tell what has happened. So Joe picks up the phone and walks away. He and he's he's called someone and he's got hold of family. And so I'm on the ground with her, and um I take her hand, and she's squeezing my hand. So here's this foreigner on the ground in the road, there's blood everywhere. Um, and I'm telling her, I'm here beside you, I'm not gonna leave you, I'm gonna stay with you. And you know, we're gonna call for an ambulance, and someone's gonna come. Uh, but I'm here and and I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna stay and she I can feel her squeezing my hand. And uh so I'm down there like that, and then uh some cars start coming and some motorcycles, and uh her family have come. And so they pull up, and they they they they see me uh on the on the road with her, and they start screaming and wailing. This is the night. Um there's some people have walked up from the road, you can see their faces in the grass like looking through, but they haven't come up to where we are. And uh and so um, you know, I'm there, and the family's wailing, and they're throwing themselves down on the ground and on the car, but nobody's going to her. And then they say, uh, it's the foreigner. He killed her. And of course we it wasn't us at all. And then now a crowd's building up and they start yelling, kill him, kill him, the foreigner, kill him, you know, and they're emotionally distraught, and uh and it's getting really ugly. So I've got two men there, and they rush over to me and they say, Get back, get back in the car, get back in the car.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:37

And I said, I can't I can't, you want me to leave her? They said they're gonna kill you.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:42

And so I I I I got up, I had to leave her. None of her family went to her. And and they got me through the crowd into the car, and they sh shut the door, and people were banging on the car. Kill him! And I can feel the car rocking as they're pushing the car. And uh anyway, you know, we uh in the end, the boys like got us out of there. Uh, the ambulance came, we had to go. Um, and it was, you know, I was I'm I'm sitting in the car, I've got blood all over me. And I'm just staring, you know, and uh what I'd seen was very graphic and disturbing, and you know, had got very dangerous very quickly. And you know, there wasn't much I could do, but you know, again, it was just it was just one of those things where the Lord just protected us, and there's been hundreds of things like that. Here's the thing you live life like that, and then you've just got to try and be normal. Right? You just gotta get up the next day and be normal. But you have stuff like that happen all the time. You can't say, I'm psychologically damaged. I can't, you you cannot, you know? Yeah, no excuse there. Just get up, keep going. And and stuff like that uh all the time. I I'll I I'll conclude. I'll tell you a story, it happened, I guess, two years ago. So uh one of the men that I led to Christ, Dio, who I carried out of a slum, it's a long story with that. About two years ago. Uh he's driving uh some people back from church, and he's several villages away from our church, and uh his car, several things happen, his car slides off the road, turns. If I show I have pictures, I showed you the pictures, they're very graphic, slams into a into a post, and uh the car is just you if you look at the car, you think nobody can live through that. And so he's he's there and and he's slumped over the steering wheel and um he looks dead. Uh he's near death. He told me he's praying, he told me, he said, I was praying, oh God, please, just don't kill me.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:00

Just let me live, please.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:02

And he said he can feel he's dying. So all the villagers come running up and they gather around. Now, in Thai culture, you don't help anyone. Or you don't touch them, you just watch, and you call for someone to come and help. So nobody does CPR, nobody does anything, nobody tries to get you out. No, they just watch, they just all stand there and look like right? They w nobody will do anything. So that's how they are. Uh and this is this is normal. So they've called for help, and this I've I you know, this is and and so the the help finally arrives, the rescue people arrive, and he's like, people think he's probably dead, and so they have to start cutting the car, you know, with hydraulic to sort of get him out. And as they're pulling him out, the crowd is saying to the people rescue, there's two of them. And they're all yelling, there's two, there's two there. And the guy's going, Where? Where? And they're going, and they're all looking, it's two, we've been watching, there's two. There's him, and there's the one beside him. And they're going, they're looking, and they say, There's there's nobody. There's nobody here. And so all the people go and start looking in the car, and they go, Where did he go?

SPEAKER_03 1:37:32

Where did the other one go? Did you see where he went?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:37

And so they take him away. And you know, he was touch and go, but he lived. And he'd been witnessing to some people in that village. And so the people came back and they're all saying, Where did the other one go?

SPEAKER_03 1:37:54

How how can that be? Did he how can he just go? Like, where did he go?

SPEAKER_02 1:37:59

And there was a man he'd been witnessing to, and he said, He said, That was Dio. He said, He's been telling me about about Prajao, about God. He said, I think it must have been something about God that was with him. And all the people like, oh, they were just spooked, like what this is. We know what we saw. Not one, I mean 70 people.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:27

And they all said there was a second person.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:28

They all said the second person. We were watching them. We were sitting there looking at the second person, waiting for the rescue. So that man then drives to the church, and uh he comes and he says, you know, this this happened and this happened with you, and the people say, and we're like, mmm. He said, Dio's been telling me about salvation for a long time. He said, I I I I want to receive, I want, I want to be saved. So that man prayed to be saved, and a couple more after that. But I mean, we just have stuff like that happen all the time. I mean, it's just all the time. And we just go, mmm.

unknown 1:39:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:09

Right. So it's it's uh it's challenging, it's wonderful. Uh I would say, you know, if God is calling you to anything, don't be afraid, embrace it, it'll be the best life you could ever have. Life is hard everywhere, right? Don't say, well, a ministry is hard. Listen, driving a taxi is hard.

unknown 1:39:31

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:31

Life's hard everywhere. But just pick the thing that God wants you to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:36

Who do you think the second person in the car was?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:39

Well, I I could not explain it any other way, but to suggest it probably had to be uh an angel. I I I just don't think I don't know what what else it could have been. Yeah. Um you know, I wasn't I wasn't there, but there were 70 people there. And um these these people are not trying to make stuff up, you know. I mean, they're not they're not like let's make up a sensational story. They don't even know what they're seeing. Yeah, they're just telling you what they're seeing. You know, if it had been one or something, you might have that you know, that was a whole crowd. Yeah, so I I was guessing that, and he thinks it was it was probably an angel that was keeping him alive. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:19

So just as we're concluding, what um what's the future in Thailand?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:26

Yeah. Well, uh, by the grace of God, we want to continue. You know, we've we've um we've we've now planted two more churches apart from our own. Thailand has traditionally been missionary resistant. I mean, it's just it's been a place where there hasn't been a lot of visible success. There's been a lot of faithful people, and we're not diminishing that, but we have really, you know, seen some some some good things happen. We want to continue to keep reaching out. If anybody, you know, is praying, the northeast of Thailand. There's a third of the Thai population there. I think it's probably the most open area of Thailand now. If you're looking it up, Isan, E-S-S-A-N, and uh there's no missionaries want to go there. It's just it's just, I mean, they go other places, but nobody wants to go there. Why is that? Uh it has less facilities. You know, the nicer restaurants, the better climate is somewhere else. Um, but that is a real area of need, and I think it's open. I I think I think right now that that that would be a good place to go. All right, so there's there's 25 million people up there.

unknown 1:41:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:44

And I think it's I think it's ripe for somebody to go. Um so you know, we want to do more up there. We've planted two churches up there. There's another group we're working with. Uh they are hungry for truth. Thai people are working out that what they have is not working. Yeah. And and and they want to know, they're looking for what does work. Their families are in disarray, drugs have ravaged the culture. Uh, you know, it's just getting hard. They want to know what does work. So the up the opportunity is there. There's no there's no greater, grander thing to do than to give your life to the winning of the lost. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:26

Well, we appreciate your time. Uh, thank you for uh just being here and sharing your story, and just appreciate uh just appreciate you and your faithfulness, and just uh we'll be praying for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:39

Thank you. It's good to chat. God bless you, sir, and uh and those you know who may listen in. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:45

Thank you so much. Bye.