Everything Counts

Episode 3: Talia

• Kristin • Episode 3

Share episode

Ease is a power move.

Executive coach and organizational psychologist Talia (she/her) joins to talk about what happens when “working hard” becomes who you are, and what it takes to rewrite that story. We trace her path from AmeriCorps to L&D and consulting to launching Stepping Stones Coaching, the moment she realized job satisfaction can’t sit in someone else’s hands, and the practice of designing for ease without abandoning ambition. We also unpack the overachiever script so many women inherit, why “boundaries” rarely stick without self-kindness, and how to try on new ways of being like swapping lenses, no identity crisis required.

How to get in touch:

Kristin:

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is someone that we run in some of the same circles. We have a lot of overlap based on friends who used to be coworkers, and now it's all one circle. I had long heard her name, and based on the stories I'd been told, she sounded like she was wonderful. And then I finally got to meet her a couple of years ago. And in fact, she was wonderful. And also turns out she was in the middle of transitioning into one of my apparently many career dreams, which is executive coach. So today's guest is Talia. She her, she is a coach, facilitator, and organizational psychologist who partners with her clients to create meaningful changes in their personal and professional lives. Talia primarily does this work through a business she started in 2024, Stepping Stones Coaching. Originally from California, Talia has spent the last 17 years making NYC home. In her free time, you can find her exploring new restaurants in the city, keeping most of her plants alive, and listening to podcasts when she walks her senior dog. Talia, welcome.

Talia:

Hi, so happy to be here.

Kristin:

Yay, me too. I'm so excited. And I want to immediately talk about plants and dogs, but I will save that for a more natural time. But wait, no, can you tell me about your senior dog?

Talia:

Yes. Um, I I was one of the folks who adopted during the pandemic. So I adopted a senior dog who was 10 years old at the time, so now he's 15. And part of his paperwork said he was called Mr. Noodles. The other paperwork said Mr. Wiggles. So I landed on Mr. Noodles McWiggles. And he's um a joy to take care of. He's got lots of struggles because you know he's getting older, but he's been a fun companion the last five years.

Kristin:

I really love it. I have a 17-year-old. Oh my gosh. Yes, yes. Yours could can almost drive. Almost.

Talia:

Probably should though. He's he's blind and deaf, so not a good real.

Kristin:

Not a good question.

Talia:

Yeah.

Kristin:

Um, well, I'm gonna get a couple things out of the way because these are just my special interests, and I do believe that some of our early experiences do shape what we choose to do in life. So talk to me about your astrological sign if you want. And also like birth order, family, like what are the things that shape you?

Talia:

Yeah, okay. Well, I'm not big into astrology, but I'm finding the more I learn about it lately, people are like always spot on the nose of like what my sign is. I'm a Capricorn. I was born on um Christmas Day. So that is a fun, fun birthday as someone who's Jewish to celebrate. I'm not the oldest in my you know, siblings, but in the household I grew up in, I was the oldest. And so I definitely have a lot of those characteristics of an older sibling. Um, I grew up in the Silicon Valley in California, which is very like academically driven, but also very progressive and very diverse. And so that also shaped me and sort of my values and what I care about. And I, you know, from a very young age was always told, oh, when you grow up, you're gonna be a teacher or you're gonna be a great therapist. Like you're such a good listener. So those are things that I think were seeds that were planted in me when I was really young. That also influenced like how I saw myself.

Kristin:

Being a coach is like being a teacher and a therapist at the same time.

Talia:

It's so interesting because it's like I didn't end up, I did work in an education nonprofit for many years. So I was school teacher adjacent. But where I ended up was in teaching adults, right? Doing learning and development and educating adults. And while coaching and therapy are really distinct, there's certainly some overlap, and people will often, you know, refer to executive coaches as like therapists for your workplace, right? And it is different, right? I want to be clear like there is a distinction in what's being done in those sessions, but certainly there's there's definitely some some alignment there.

Kristin:

I can, I mean, I can see it. I respect that it's not therapy per se, but sometimes it's therapeutic for the person being coached. I know that from the absolute time that I got it. Okay, you touched on it, but let's start. Tell us a super short version of your career path.

Talia:

Yeah, okay. So I I think one theme is earlier on in my career, I just had no idea what I wanted to do. Like I knew that I had gotten these messages from adults in my life, like you should be a teacher, you should be a therapist, but I had no clue. I couldn't see what the future I wanted. And so in college, I, you know, I worked in after-school programs and taught science, like summer camps and stuff. And I uh studied psychology. So I got my bachelor's in psychology. But after, you know, once I was trying to figure out what to do with my life and what job to get after college, I just felt stuck. I was like, I have no idea. I know I don't want to be a teacher, but what do I want to do? And so I was looking at like year of service programs and opportunities to have a bit of a gap year because I knew I wanted to give back, I wanted to have make a difference, but I also wanted to delay making a decision of what to do. So I was very much like, I don't know what to do with my life and I'm not ready to decide. Um, and so I ended up doing a year of service program through an education nonprofit, AmeriCorps. And then I really couldn't get enough of that work. So I did one year, I worked directly with students in schools, and then I did a second year where I was leading teams, and I was much more excited by that, by the idea of like working with adults and helping to develop them. And so then I ended up um applying for a full-time role after that. And I just kept kept working there. And I switched from, you know, managing teams and partnerships to uh learning and development. I was really fascinated by, you know, how people learn and grow and improve. And I did that for many years and really um loved to create spaces where people could learn or experience things, but I also started to feel like I was really interested in the other factors at work that influence people's experience. So I saw how having a new manager or new leadership or changing in expectations can make such a big difference in how people experience work. And so I wanted to get into that and I wanted to study that more. And so I ended up getting my master's in social organizational psychology, which is essentially the study of human behavior in the workplace. And I wasn't sure where I wanted to go after I got that, but people tend to go into two routes with that degree. They either go um internal into an organization, into like HR or talent space, or they go into consulting and they work as a consultant. And I was pretty sure I wanted to be internal and that I actually wanted to return to the nonprofit space and you know, be, you know, head of HR or you know, people in culture. And I thought that was the future for me. But I was sort of curious about, well, let me get a taste of this consulting space. And so um I spent the next several years working for a couple of different um consulting firms, one that focused more on employee engagement and helping employees be, you know, reducing turnover at work. And then I also got to do some internal HR work and another where I spent some time focusing on DEI and facilitating workshops to help managers and individual contributors create environments where everyone can thrive. And I did that for a while, and then I was really feeling the itch to be internal again, to feel like I wasn't just uh having these like one and done interactions with clients to be able to like build something more. And so I went in internal at a global sports and entertainment company and was leading, you know, employee development initiatives, like mentorship programs and learning opportunities. And through that, and while I was there, I was also working on getting my coaching certification and left about those eight months ago, left a full-time job to focus on my business, stepping stones, coaching. So it's interesting because throughout that, there's been a theme in what I've done. It's been a lot of employee development, it's been a lot of focus on learning, on growth and coaching, but in many different ways and in very different organizations. And my jobs have looked completely different. And I would have never expected I'd end up where I am now when I when I first started.

Kristin:

That's amazing. And I have questions within questions. Yeah. And also I'm kind of loving this ultimately, you're kind of meeting yourself in the middle, right? Like you get to have deep relationships that are committed and you get to see people grow, but you're on your own and you're not embedded in like the expectations of corporate culture. So that's amazing.

Talia:

Yeah. And the thing that's so honestly still like mind-boggling to me is I never thought I wanted to work for myself ever. Like I remember still being early on in my career, and and even as I progressed and having that suggested to me a few times. And I thought, like, never. Like, I love working in organizations. I love teams. I love like, I don't want to be my own boss. That sounds terrible. Like it really, I could not have imagined it. But it struck me at one point that I was putting so much of my job satisfaction in the hands of my employer. And I felt like, you know, one change, new manager, or a direction in the organization, or any sort of shift. And now suddenly my job's completely different. Or now how I feel at work is different, or, you know, it just so much felt outside of my control. And now I get to diversify it a little bit more and I get to have a little bit more ownership. And so surprised myself by working for myself.

Kristin:

I think it's amazing. And as a fellow Capricorn, I'm like, I don't want to go out on my own because I I know how to play the game of interlife. I know, I know which ladder I'm climbing. Like I know the thing that I'm doing. And then we're out on your own. You're like, there are no rules out here. You're just Yeah.

Talia:

Oh, yeah. That's actually the hardest thing is that when you're working for someone, I feel like one of the early tricks I learned was if you know what your boss's expectations are, you can be successful. Also do the things you care about and that you think are important. But as long as you meet their expectations or exceed them, you just have to understand them and what they care about. But it's really different to wake up every day and think, like, how do I want to spend my time? Like, what actually matters to me? And I plan very differently now than I ever did before because it's just, it's not up to other people anymore. Yeah.

Kristin:

I mean, also like, who's gonna tell you good job? I mean, does that motivate you? It motivates me. Like, I want someone to tell me I'm doing okay. And like, do you have, I don't know, do you have mechanisms to remind yourself that you're kind of doing?

Talia:

Yeah the beautiful thing about the work that I do is like it's really inherently fulfilling and I get real-time feedback in the moment. So when I'm doing one-on-one coaching with a leader, like just today, I've finished an engagement, a six-month engagement with a coaching client. And, you know, one of the questions I asked when we closed was like, what gift has this experience given you? You know, I primarily worked with her on how to manage her team. So it was focusing on giving and receiving feedback. It was focused on like how she was supporting them and adapting her work style. Like, so much of it was very tactical. But what she shared was she just said, I feel unburdened. I feel like I'm a different person than I was when we started. I feel like happier, I feel more empowered. I feel like I have tools to have different choices for how I address the issues and continue to get better. And so to hear that in sessions, like every day, every week, I get to immediately see the feedback. And so from that perspective, I don't have to wait till a performance review. Like I get real-time feedback for like how it's going and the gratitude that clients feel and just like a shift in how they're relating to their work that makes a really big difference.

Kristin:

What was the moment when you decided to pursue coaching?

Talia:

It's so interesting because there were several moments that built on each other. Before I even left to go to grad school, when I was still working in the education nonprofit space, we had had a trainer come in and lead a workshop on coaching. And it was something around like how we as managers could leverage these coaching skills. And I remember like looking at her and thinking, like, I kind of want to do what she does. Like, I love to facilitate workshops, but I also really curious about this coaching thing. And I had for probably the first time ever at that point in my career, reached out to her afterwards and said, Hey, can I learn more about your career and like how you got to what you you're doing? And it was the first time I kind of had a call like that. And she shared with me that, you know, some people go to the path of studying organizational psychology, some people do this. And she shared with me sort of how she got to do what she does. And so that reaffirmed for me, like, okay, if I do grad school, like maybe that's the direction I want to go in. So that was the first taste. And then when I was in grad school, I took executive coaching courses where I actually got to work with clients and also practice coaching with my peers. And I remember thinking at the time, like, I love this. Like, I really want to do this work. It's work that both feels natural to me, but also feels challenging, which feels good. Like I feel like I can use my skills, but I also there's so much more room to grow. And I just love the feeling. And so it was like planted seed in my head, like, okay, one day I will invest in getting certified as a coach. And after that point, like when I was working in the consulting space, there were times where I would coach, either formally or informally. I did have some training in it, but I knew I really wanted more deeper expertise. And part of it, what's actually prevented me from doing it sooner, one is a financial investment. So it is a lot of money to go through a certification process. But it was also this feeling of not feeling like I had gained enough work experience or I was old enough to be respected in that capacity. So if you think about like coaching executives, I was like, who am I as someone who is my early 30s, like who either you're not gonna listen to me or respect me? But so much of that over the years and experience I've gotten, I realized doesn't matter. I've I've been in rooms where I've facilitated or worked with people who are, you know, 10, 20 years older than me and spaces or people are younger than me. And it's not, it's not about that. And so some of it was just also getting over my own stuff around what it takes to do that work and just gaining more experience. And then I really realized like I was, okay, if if I uh now is the time to do it. And so when I switched to work back internally again and I had a job with the flexibility that allowed me to do this at the same time, I was able to explore that and go for it. But the plan to do it probably started like five years before I did it. To the like, I'm gonna do this one day. And then it was like, okay, I'm gonna do this in the next few years. And then it was like next year, I'm going to do it. And then I finally was like, I'm doing it. And then I coached, you know, while I was going through the certification, it was a year-long program. I was coaching clients while I did it. And then I stayed at my job another year and I was coaching on the side. And so yeah, it was a long process to get from the original seat of the idea to actually do it.

Kristin:

It's a real commitment. I mean, you the commitments that you noted, plus plus, like it is a bit of a pivot, you know, you're committing to changing something. I feel like women tell themselves this the most. This like, who am I? Who's gonna want to be coached by me? I think that's something that really impacts women. And then the other thought that comes to mind when you're talking about that is the concept of management consulting. So when we're talking about the like the Bains and the EYs of the world, those are really young people. And they're usually from really privileged backgrounds. And so again, I think there's like some kind of story that the majority of us are telling ourselves that we're not ready, we're not ready or qualified. But then if you look outside of your own lens, you're like, oh, other people are different.

Talia:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting. One of the shifts that I noticed for myself for so much of my career, what I felt mattered most was knowledge, skills, expertise. And so as I was growing in my career and like managing people, say, okay, I'm gaining experience doing this, I'm gaining knowledge. I have no these frameworks, I can teach people about this and really like growing my knowledge to be able to then come from a place of like, I am an expert on this topic, I can speak on it, I can have all these examples of how it shows up in different spaces and different industries, like working in the consulting space. I was able to speak to like, oh, here's how I see you work for lawyers and tech company, all this stuff. But as I went through a coach training program, I was really brought back to myself and just like the core of who I am. And I think about like as a child, right? My parents or people around me saw me as somebody that was good at listening and able to really like teach and guide others. And so that's something that it's a skill I developed over time, but it's also part of just the core of who I am and how I show up. And so for me, part of feeling more comfortable being in spaces with people who are older than me, with people who have more experience in certain industries, I'm not trying to impress them with my expertise. I'm not trying to impress them with my knowledge. It's just comes back to like the core of who I am and how I show up, trusting that like that's actually the tool that's going to be useful for them when it's more about my way of being than it is like the knowledge. And sometimes people will work with me because of the degree or because of, you know, that'll be enough to like check the box. But at the end of the day, no one is appreciating the work that I did with them because of the degree that I have or because of the experience that I have. It's just maybe what gets me noticed, but it's the way of being that makes a difference.

Kristin:

For sure. I mean, it's such a beautiful point. You know, it's one of my personal, I don't know, just like hope, streams, goals has always been to just figure out a way, a career, a whatever, to just be myself all the time. When I was younger, I didn't, I just didn't know that that was really a thing. Like Bethany Frankel, Bethany Frankel is just out here doing whatever she wants. I'm re-watching the real health like from New York and like she just wants to make a skinny girl margarita, and she did. And then she she just gets to be herself all the time. Yeah. And like, how cool is that? And so it was a concept I didn't quite understand as a young person. And I I moved to New York City as a young person, and I was constantly in spaces that were unfamiliar to me. And I was constantly just trying to kind of play a role or like mimic other people so that I could fit in. And it wasn't until I figured out that like actually just who I am is what's worthy. That's when things really I had a breakthrough and I felt like I can be in any space and I can talk about anything as long as I'm being myself.

Talia:

It's so huge. I mean, it's sometimes I think we pick up on it in other people when people aren't being themselves, and we may not even be able to name that that's what's happening, but there's something that comes across that's like inauthentic, or there's something there that's in the way of truly connecting. So I do think there's so much value in being able to truly be yourself. And I think that's difficult because a lot of work environments have all these other expectations, have all these other things that are required of you that I think a lot of us like we learn how to like put on that armor, how to act a certain way, how to meet those expectations. And so it's not easy, I think, to come back to yourself. And it's also not welcomed in every environment, like implicitly. And so it's, I think, finding like where are those moments where I can be more of myself and where I can lean into like what my strengths actually are and how I want to be, and not feel trapped in being the way that I've learned to be in order to be successful here.

Kristin:

I saw something you posted on LinkedIn recently and I kind of launched onto it. And it was a post about ambitious women and excellence becoming part of our identities. I loved it. It was really good. I even may have copied and pasted it. But can you talk about what inspired you to write that?

Talia:

Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because this has been really top of mind for me. I've been noticing in a lot of my clients this theme, this theme of women who were like really good in school, right? Like got good grades and were praised for that or praised for being overachievers. And that translated to their careers, right? It's really easy to transition. So you're thinking around like working hard and getting good grades to meeting your boss's expectations. And so that drive was to be transferred onto their jobs. And there's a lot that gets like reinforced and taught at work. One of the things that I think is really interesting is we always think that people choose their career based on like what they're interested in or what they care about. We don't think as much about the way that your career actually changes you and like who you're exposed to, the norms in that environment, what the values are, also then shapes you and your outlook on the world. And so when you're in an environment where you're constantly rewarded for working hard or staying late or whatever it might be, you start to associate that with your worth of like who you are and what you care about. And for everyone, it looks a little bit different. So for some, it might be over-identifying with this idea of being the person who always follows through. For someone else, it might be the person who's always innovating and like pushing things to the next level. For someone else, it might be that they're, you know, not going to take no for an answer. It's gonna be a little bit different for everybody, but there's some sort of rule around what it looks like to be successful that we internalize. And not only do we see that as like, this is what I need to be successful at work, but oftentimes we see it as like, this is who I am. And now I'm proud of this. Like, this is what I'm like, proud to call myself somebody who's ambitious. I'm proud, like I used to work late all the time. And I would get mad when people would suggest that I work less because I was like, but I love what I do and being hardworking and being committed to this work is part of my identity and like what I value. And so for a while it really works and it feels good because it feels like this connection of like, wow, I'm getting to live out and be proud of myself and proud of my work. But then at some point it doesn't, maybe because the environment shifts, or maybe you just get tired and you get burnt out. And then it's really hard because what if I want to try to work less? Well, now I don't feel good about myself because I, yeah, who am I? I've internalized that part of what being a good and being successful is working hard. And now I'm like forcing myself to work less, but I'm so tired and I want, I want to connect more with people and I want to have other parts of my life. And so there's these like artificial things like just shut off your laptop at 5 p.m., right? Or just say no to things. The number of requests that I get from clients when they come to me and say, I want to work my boundaries. And that's what the words are using, right? I want to work on work-life balance, or I want to work on my boundaries. But when one gets to the heart of it, there's a lot of work around, I actually need to be kinder to myself, or I need to figure out what this new version of success looks like for me. And often creating a new narrative and figuring out a way to be kind to yourself, then allows you to invest in other parts of your life, then allows you to turn off the computer and like make space for other things. But the artificial boundaries, like that relies on will. And like that's that's not gonna work if it goes against who you feel like you are and it doesn't you don't feel proud of yourself when you do that. There's like a this like tube of war that happens.

Kristin:

It's a little bit too like tearing, tearing down a lot of what you built up so that you can kind of rebuild, and it's scary and vulnerable. I wonder if you have reflections on does this happen at like a certain age to women, or is this just like dependent on, you know, it's independent, it's independent for everyone, but it does feel like everyone has a moment where they go through this, specifically women.

Talia:

Yeah. I think you know, I'm sure it's different for everyone. I think that I see it most in women that I'm working with that are like mid-30s to mid-50s, like right in that range, which part of that makes sense, right? These are people who are more likely to be able to afford to work with a coach, right? Or to deal with these issues. So it's likely that other people are dealing with. So I know for me, I grappled with it a lot more in my 20s, but I think it's different for everyone. And I also think that's gonna show up different for everybody, and there's different things that are gonna work for different people, right? But the main part of the work for me with my clients is just to create more options. So, like, there's one way of doing things, and that doesn't have to be the only way you do things. And like, what are different ways and what might change in your life if you approached it differently and just create more, more options and more choice?

Kristin:

I love that. I think for me, it was in my mid-30s, I had a seat at the table. Finally, I like I always I again, Capricorn energy, I wanted to have power. I finally got power. I'm at the table and I'm like, you can't be serious that this is the table. Wow.

Talia:

Yes, yeah.

Kristin:

And then I think that's something, there's something else here. Like now it's like I climbed and then now I have to come back to myself. And that was that was the dream. I was like, okay, so the table is it's important. I don't want to make light of it, but also it's a little bit, it's a little bit fake. Everything is fake. Yeah, we're all making it. It's all made up. And so now that I'm here and I see for myself that it's fake, uh, what should I be doing for myself feel fake?

Talia:

I think it's such a good point, right? Like it's like sometimes what we think we want isn't what we want. I think for years and years, I really believed I wanted to be like I would only be fulfilled in my work if I worked for an organization that was mission-driven. So if I worked in the in the nonprofit space, if I worked for an organization that was explicitly mission-driven. And it's true that, you know, there was a deep sense of fulfillment that came from being in those environments, especially very like social justice and equity-driven environments. But what I realized was that even as I got closer and closer to working at places where I felt that alignment in my values, that didn't necessarily equate feeling fulfilled or feeling like I was making an impact. And I realized for me, working in a role where I was really aligned with the mission of the role, I felt a lot more freedom and a lot more ability to have that impact than working for an organization that aligned with my values. There's something about it actually working for an organization where my values were aligned made me over-identify with the organization and be more frustrated when things didn't go the way that I, you know, wanted them to go. So I do think there's really something to what you're saying about once you get what you think you wanted and you realize it didn't get you what you wanted, which was a certain feeling or a certain level of fulfillment, that it's like, wait a minute, this didn't work. Like, what do I do now? Now I have to look for, look for something else. And so I do think that's that's an experience I'm sure a lot of people really do.

Kristin:

How do you personally find ease in these moments where you're thinking about this for your these boundaries and these issues for yourself?

Talia:

It's funny you said ease because ease has been one of the themes for me the last few years is just looking at like, how do I generate ease? So it's actually a question that I ask myself almost every single day. When I find myself getting overwhelmed, or if I find myself getting lost in planning or just making things harder for myself, I just think about like, what does it mean for me to approach this with ease? And sometimes it means to plan less. Sometimes it means to take a break and do something that I enjoy, reconnect with a friend. It could be going on a walk, just looking at like the question of like, what if it doesn't have to be hard? Is one that I try to ask myself a lot. Because sometimes this idea of like making things hard, then it feels more fulfilling or like a bigger accomplishment, or to work hard through it. So sometimes it's just like, okay, how do I generate ease? What if it doesn't have to be hard? And just asking myself that can shift how I'm relating to it. And part of it too, I think, is treating it like laundry, where you're always gonna have to do more laundry as long as you like wear clothes every day, right? There's always gonna be more laundry to do. There's always There's going to be more dishes to do. It's not a task that's ever complete. It's just like complete for now and then you do it again. And I think that's part of it. It's like, I'm always going to have to remind myself to generate ease and find new opportunities to do that. But there's nothing wrong with the fact that I have to keep regenerating it.

Kristin:

Do you have advice for anyone who might see themselves in this conversation about being exhausted by excellence and maybe someone that doesn't know where to start?

Talia:

It doesn't happen overnight. So if you're listening to some of the things that we're saying and thinking, like even rolling your eyes at it to be like, oh, I could never. I used to be in your shoes. I used to feel the same way. So it doesn't happen overnight. There has to reach a point where you decide for yourself, this isn't working for me. And I want something different. And you have to be willing to then say, like, maybe the way that I've been approaching this isn't working for me anymore. And maybe it did a lot for me before. Maybe it was really helpful. And now I can try something different. Try wearing different glasses, a different lens of viewing the world, a different lens of viewing the situation. Try on a different pair of glasses and let's see what changes. And guess what? I can always put the glasses down and pick up my favorite glasses and put them back on. So if you try on a different way of being, you're not going to lose your old way. You're not going to lose your work ethic. When I need to, I can put my work ethic back on and then I can like bust my ass and focus and be disciplined and work hard. I just don't need to approach everything in my life that way, the way that I used to. And so knowing that it's always there for you to return to, but there's other ways and like there's an opportunity to have more ease.

Kristin:

We're going to switch gears and go into the lightning round. This is a list of six questions that I ask all of my guests. I don't want you to to do too much overthinking. Um run through them, but also I want to hear all the good stories. Don't hold that. What was the very first job you ever had? And what did it teach you about work?

Talia:

So I'll go with my college job, which was working with students after school programs teaching science and these like science summer camps. I think what it taught me about work was the importance of the relationship with your colleagues and with your boss. Like I really had a really good relationship with my boss and felt really valued and I got opportunities from that. And I think in hindsight, when I look back on it, I think the other thing I learned was that you don't have to know that much about something in order to be able to learn how to do it well. Because science was not like I was a psychology major. I wasn't like a biology or like a physics major. Like I didn't remember a lot of these concepts, but I could learn them well enough to be able to teach them to the kids. And it became more about how you made it exciting, how you made it fun, how you engage the students. And I think that's true for a lot of the facilitation and learning that I've done is like I don't have to be an expert in that topic in order to help other people learn about it.

Kristin:

Yeah. Ultimately you're an expert in people.

Talia:

Yeah, and in the way of and learning and helping people learn and grab. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin:

What's one thing you believed about careers when you were younger that you definitely don't believe now?

Talia:

I felt like every decision was immensely consequential. I felt like I was in front of a bunch of open doors, and I had to choose one. And as soon as I walked through one, all the other doors would shut. And so I was so nervous, so scared to even decide to like go through one. And so that's how I used to feel. Now it feels like as long as you keep moving through another door, there's gonna be more. And so great, like I'll just keep exploring and you can always turn around and go back. So I think that's one of them. The other was that I think part of it was around the working hard. As long as you work hard, as long as you meet your boss's expectations, like that's what matters. And the third one is around passion. Like I think this idea of follow your bliss, follow your passion. And as long as you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. I don't believe that that's true because I think that we live in a capitalist society, it requires us to work for money. And like it's never just about your bliss and your passion and following that. And so I think the mistake that a lot of people make, the mistake I made in the past, was focusing all my passion into my work rather than making my life my passion and my work being one aspect of it. And so I think that's a big thing that shifted for me.

Kristin:

Uh, that's a nugget I'm gonna write down. That's really good. Best or worst piece of advice you've ever gotten.

Talia:

The best reframing around networking that was very helpful to me, even now in my career, is uh not making networking about going into a room full of people you don't know and trying to talk to strangers and give your elevator pitch and you know, shake your hand and do all those like quote unquote right things. But to just look at like who do you already know and how can you strengthen those relationships and who do they know and like really stick with like your existing relationships? That's been really tremendous for me in building my business. And it's something that makes it so much less scary to try to build a stronger network and just to like follow and spend time with the people I enjoy spending time with and talking to, like you. So yeah, yeah.

Kristin:

I love I love that I got to be on that list and that you reached out to me. What is your career armor? And so that's that little thing that you reach for to like feel comfort or feel strong during your work day.

Talia:

Honestly, I think it's just the you know, people in my life. Like if there are times where I don't feel strong or don't feel grounded or I don't recognize myself or I don't see like what's possible, I just reconnect with people I know that will remind me of of who I am and what I'm capable of. And that like little boost of connection usually keeps me keeps me going.

Kristin:

Most embarrassing work story.

Talia:

I was thinking about this and I was like, oh my gosh, I can think of so many mistakes I've made. I mean, once I sent this like such a classic mistake, but I sent a newsletter out to like hundreds of people that included the word draft in the title. And then I think the subject line said said something about like TBD, like title or something. Like that was like very clear that that was not supposed to be the subject. So that was pretty mortifying, but I did get feedback that more people like opened up that email than they had like other news on they were like, wait a minute. So um, but that felt that was the very much one of those moments where it's like as soon as you see the mistake, just feel like immediate shame. But one thing that happens to me a lot is I really struggle to remember names and faces. And some of it, that's just like me. Like it just is like uh harder for my brain to recognize faces and remember them. Um, but I'm also when I'm in front of large groups and when I'm training them, I'm just exposed to a lot of people that often will remember me, but then I won't always remember exactly who they are. So I've had so many moments where people come up to me and talk to me and they remember me. And I vaguely maybe remember them, but sometimes I don't. And it is um like always embarrassing for me. So I think that's like that's one of the things that I keep come like uh keeps happening for me. And I deeply want to like connect with people. So it always feels terrible when I don't remember uh their names, but it is it is like trying to maneuver conversations where I can't remember what someone's name is, is definitely an experience I've had a lot.

Kristin:

Embracing embarrassment, right? It's yeah, fixing typos in casual communication, yes or no?

Talia:

If the message is still clear, no. Like if it's still clear what I'm at. If if no, it's something like misspelling there, where it makes me look like I don't know the difference between them, then I correct it.

Kristin:

I am aligned. You are actually the first person to have this answer, so thank you. I respect it. What advice would you give to someone who feels off track right now?

Talia:

It's all okay. And I know that like may not feel great to hear, but like if you're off track right now, it's probably what you need in order to get to what's gonna be better for you. So just this recognition of like there's nothing wrong with being off track. Like the only way you know that you're on track is you've experienced times where you're not. So it's all okay. There's nothing wrong. You're gonna figure out how to get back to what feels good for you. And if you need support, seek out some support for it. Do you want to promote anything? Yeah. I mean, I'll share that I am constantly looking to have conversations like these with leaders who are feeling stuck. So folks can reach out to me on LinkedIn and on my website, steppingstonescoach.com. So anyone who's feeling stuck or feeling unsure can't always have a conversation. Happy to offer, you know, complimentary coaching session uh with no commitment, just to explore and see if it can be beneficial for you. So don't hesitate to reach out if you want to talk about it.

Kristin:

Talia's calm vibes and approach to life and work really inspire me. I think I'm especially inspired by the idea of just trying new ways of approaching things. I loved her idea of calling them glasses or lenses. So you try it on. If it didn't work and you were more comfortable with the glasses you had before, that's okay too. I like not feeling like everything is a forever commitment and we can try and we can find ourselves wildly apart from what we may have imagined and really happy, or we can come back to the things that we know work for us. We're always changing and shifting. And I think our lives are part of our work, and our work is part of our lives, and we can keep shifting. The other thing that she talked about that inspired me was the idea of coming back to yourself and remembering that whatever your credentials are, whatever your experience is, that's important. That's great. But who you are is what you're really bringing to the table. People want to connect with you because you're a human and because you're authentic. And that is the key to success. We're not just playing a role or pretending to be someone else. We're being ourselves in that role. And that is why we were chosen for what we're doing. That is why we're successful in what we're doing. Of course, everyone's replaceable, but what's not replaceable is knowing exactly who you are and how to show up authentically. That will get you so far. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. See you next time.