Kristin: Nothing is real, but you are!

Nothing is real, but you are!

In this special episode, the mic flips as host Kristin becomes the guest. She traces her path from bookstore counters to boardroom tables, unpacking what it means to lead yourself before you lead others. With humor and honesty, she explores perfectionism, patriarchal workplaces, and the lifelong lesson that leadership starts within and that every version of you counts.

How to get in touch:

• kristin@everythingcountspod.com
• @everythingcountspod on Instagram
• @kristinonshuffle on Instagram

Transcript

Kristin 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the obscurity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices, which shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it.

Loren 0:21

Hi y'all, I'm Kristen's partner, Lauren, and I'll be your guest host today because we're speaking with Kristen. Kristen is a nonprofit executive turn podcast host who knows that work is equal parts meaningful and absurd. She spent years navigating boardrooms, budgets, and big ideas while also laughing at the small detours that shape us along the way. With a feminist lens and a love of astrology, espresso, and reality TV, she brings a sense of humor to candid conversations about career, identity, and why nothing feels real but everything counts. Welcome, Kristen.

Kristin 0:53

Hi, thank you.

Loren 0:55

So these are big shoes to fill. I'm the introvert, you're the extrovert. So this is weird.

Kristin 1:01

It's so weird. And also I'm coming face to face with my love of control.

Loren 1:07

Yeah, that makes sense. You're kind of in my hands right now.

Kristin 1:12

I don't love it.

Loren 1:13

All right, so let's get started. Why don't you kick it off by giving us the short version of your career thus far?

Kristin 1:19

I like to think of my career capital C starting when I was in grad school. I taught some communications courses, specifically like public speaking and business communication, and I loved teaching, even though talk about things not being real. I was a young 20-something teaching 20-somethings and I felt like a fraud, but it was also super fun and it put me on kind of a path. And so while I was living in Texas and I had just finished grad school, I went and got a job as a program director at a nonprofit. But naturally, I was young and I had energy, so I kept teaching. So I feel like that teaching thread continues for a bit. I started to move to New York. When I got to New York, I didn't have a job. And I spent exactly one month unemployed, and that was super scary. I was sure that New York was gonna chew me up and spit me out. I started temping. I got hooked up with some staffing agencies. Like, I don't even know if that's a thing anymore, but it was a thing back then. I got sent on some temping jobs, and one month in I had a full-time job in my lap. So for two-ish years, I was an assistant at a law firm, which taught me a lot of things, but also I can confidently say I was one of the worst assistants in history. Like I'm not meant to be an assistant. Being an assistant is like genuinely hard, and it was not for me. Anyway, I did that for a while and then I just felt the call back to nonprofits. So I got super lucky. I landed a really cool job in fundraising for a nonprofit, and that is where this sort of chapter of my career started. And I've been in several roles across several organizations, largely centered around justice and largely centered around gender and feminism and LGBTQI rights. But yeah, I've been fundraising ever since. And so, fast forward to today, I am now a vice president overseeing development and communications at a global public foundation.

Loren 3:16

All right. And then I do happen to know that you had some jobs earlier than that in your career, which are definitely worth mentioning here. Particularly, I believe you had a stint at Sonic.

Kristin 3:28

Sonic shaped me in a lot of ways. And I, yeah, it's it's interesting because I I think I just always wanted a home. And that's, you know, that's a conversation for therapy later, but I looked for home and jobs. I guess my first first job was babysitting. I was a babysitter. When I was 17, it was time I felt get a job on paper. So I went to a bookstore and I got a job. And I worked at that bookstore. They had several locations around the US. So when I went to college, I went and worked for that same bookstore, but in the town where I was living. And I thought that's like, that's my job. I'm gonna work for this company. I'm gonna work my way up and I'm gonna like whatever, whatever. I imagined myself doing like a visual merchandising. And ultimately, that, you know, I left that job. I outgrew that job. There are lots of reasons for that. Um I went and worked with Sonic, where I thought, like, okay, this is my college job. I'll work here for a while. But a couple of things. One, I was a car hop and the car hubs had to wear red, and I don't look good in red. And the people that weren't wearing red were wearing blue was so much better color.

Loren 4:34

That is a good color on you.

Kristin 4:35

Yeah. And they were shift leaders. And so I worked real hard to very quickly become a shift leader so that I could wear blue instead of red, also because I like to be in charge. Anyway, then I became a manager at Sonic because again, I like, okay, I'm home. I found my new home. Obviously, being super young, that also didn't work out. And then that's sort of where like those kinds of jobs intersected with grad school, and I I got on a different path. But boy, do I think that all jobs are so legitimate that I'm apparently just willing to stay in any path as long as I'm happy and as long as I feel like I'm at home.

Loren 5:15

You just like to be busy and feel like you have a worthy purpose. I get that.

Kristin 5:19

Yeah, I do.

Loren 5:20

That might be the first time I've ever heard of anyone pursuing a promotion because of a wardrobe change, but I guess whatever gets you there.

Kristin 5:28

Yeah, I mean, look, I love fashion and also I love working hard, and also I love bossing people around.

Loren 5:35

You know, let's continue that thought. You are the eldest daughter of three sisters. How has that shaped your leadership trajectory?

Kristin 5:45

There's really no way to even articulate it. It's like, you know, an eldest daughter is sort of just born into being in charge of shit. And like not all eldest daughters like take to it. So that's not to say like we're all meant to be leaders, but we're all a little burdened, I think, with expectations of leadership. And and so I don't know, it just fit my personality. Being the oldest child, I have a Capricorn stellium. So I'm like just Capricorn to the max. And I love order and I love, I do love to be in charge of things. And there was a time when I was younger that I thought that was like kind of problematic or gross. Um, and now these days I sort of I try to challenge myself to see it as like leadership is actually can be really gentle and soft and good. And it doesn't have to be like I'm a scary, controlling older sister, although I was also that. All the like ways in which I would try to control everything around me, I've been trying to undo that.

Loren 6:42

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, definitely the lessons learned from early, from early childhood management are generally not coming from an overly positive place. It's trying to control the chaos around you. So I get that. But um, but that said, you are just innately good at leadership. So when did you first realize you were quote unquote good at being in charge?

Kristin 7:08

That's also a good question. And like does go back to my the like inner work that I'm trying to do right now, because I probably always knew I was gonna be in charge. Like I, you know, so here babysitting my sisters when I was like definitely young. And then I think, you know, if I think back to maybe Sonic, for example, when I was like quickly working my way up so I could wear blue, everyone liked me. The people that worked there liked me. They wanted to, they wanted to work the same shift as me so I could be their shift leader. And I thought at the time that like being liked was kind of it. Like that is how you know you've achieved something. Obviously, that's not true because there's so much more to leadership, and sometimes you aren't gonna be liked. But good luck telling my 20-something self that fact. I just thought, like, hey, I'm in charge, our numbers are good, no one has any notes, and also everyone likes me. So I guess I'm good at being a leader.

Loren 8:06

Yeah.

Kristin 8:08

And then it got a little, a little, it continued to get more nuanced as I grew up. And I think at the job that I had most recently, I stepped into leadership in a new way, in like a more executive setting. And again, I felt like, well, they'll like me, so I guess I'm good. But the measures of success as a leader were really tough at that organization. And so there I learned a lot about finding balance and about how is leadership different than strategy and how is that different than everyone likes me. I started to really understand how to start to find true balance.

Loren 8:47

Let's talk a little bit about your previous to current role. And in that role, you made it to your goal, which you were running a department, you reported only to the executive director, but you wound up leaving that role because things got toxic and patriarchal. And I think that making the decision to leave such a, you know, you had you had made it.

Kristin 9:15

I did it.

Loren 9:16

You made it to where you were going, and then you still had to make the decision to leave it. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Kristin 9:23

That organization got a new reader. Um, and it was a man who was not used to working with women, and he was really harsh. And you could tell that he was sort of like he was trying some really patriarchal tactics of like go in, scare everyone, and then that's how you're gonna find success. Like be heavy-handed, make a bunch of changes, target people. He he very loudly believed exactly the opposite of everything I stood for. Right. Up until his arrival, I had had this opportunity to build a department with my own leadership. One of many, many philosophies that I have is like, do no harm. I think like we all had a really toxic boss or a toxic leader. And if I can have a staff that finds success and also isn't harmed in the process, then I've won. And so I've like done all of this work. I've made this sort of beautiful team. And then this new energy walks through the door. At first, I didn't know how to handle it, and I wanted to try to tackle it, and I wanted to protect the team, and I wanted to protect the legacy and the integrity of all of the work that everyone had put in. And then one day that person said to me, you know, I'm not used to working with women, and I have to remind myself that y'all are professionals and not just women. And the y'all he's talking about was his entire leadership team. So everyone that reported to him was a woman. And he was essentially telling me that like he doesn't know how to deal with us because normally women aren't professionals in his eyes. Yikes. Yeah. So yeah, that's that was like a real pivotal moment in in learning in defining leadership and also in letting go in in knowing that, like, okay, I've built something and I've put my whole heart into it. And not everything is permanent. And I, as much as it hurt to like leave that team and leave that organization that I really, really loved, I also sort of had to face the fact that like our jobs are not our identity, and we are not a family. And and I have to know that the team that I was working with was gonna be okay and they were gonna find their own paths. And that department, that organization, it was all gonna be okay. It just wasn't always going to be under my leadership. And that's like really it was kind of humbling. I think I might have had a lot more hubris than I realized at the time.

Loren 11:52

So, in this moment where you have to make this choice to leave a toxic situation, how did you navigate potential feelings of this being a personal failure on your part?

Kristin 12:04

Yeah, I think that's hard because what I would say right now has so much distance, right? So I've processed so much and I think I'm a different person than I was four years ago, as I hope we all are. But in that moment, I definitely did feel like a failure. And I definitely did feel like how could I not have figured out how to either suck it up and deal with it and like block the team from all of that negativity? Or how did I not figure out how to fix it? Or frankly, how did I not charm my way out of this or like negotiate my way out of this or like lead my way out of this? I couldn't do any of that. One of the reasons that this team mattered to me so much. It's not only because I built it, I hired all of them, I trained all of them. They were young. I was younger, they were younger than me. So ultimately, I decided if there was like one lesson that maybe I could teach them on my way out, was that you matter the most. Like your experience, your health, staying true to your values, that matters. And it sucks that I had to leave them. And of course, that also matters. They matter, their experience matters, but it was better for them to see me take a stand and walk away. Or at least that's what I tell myself.

Loren 13:21

No, I think that was a real lead-by-example moment. You were showing them that the organization is not more important than you are or they are. Yeah. And that's a valuable life lesson that they got to see play out before their very eyes in their 20s.

Kristin 13:37

I do hope that at the very least they are all advocating for themselves right now in whatever position they're in.

Loren 13:43

So let's talk a little bit about your intersectional identities and how being a queer woman has shaped the way you navigate these spaces, both professionally and personally, and how that generally informs your leadership strategy.

Kristin 14:01

I think I can speak to how it informs who I am first. And I think every day I'm still figuring out how it informs my leadership, but who I am and how it informs me. I take the word queer with a very serious definition. It doesn't just mean that I'm part of the LGBT community. It means that I'm part of a community that has broken down those walls. I want to be part of a community that is completely wrapping its arms around itself and not saying, okay, well, trans people over here and bisexuals over here and lesbians over here. I want to approach life in a completely open, community-centric way. And that does come back into play when I think about my leadership style. I think some other intersecting identities are like, I'm a ciswoman, I have a complex PTSD. I live in this 2025 hellscape. And I'm really, really working to hold all of those identities and all of those things that have happened to me holistically and learn how to be soft. And so, how do I kind of consistently integrate all of those pieces of myself together? And then I think there is where we start to talk about how that shows up as a leader. So if I can be kind and soft to myself, even though I want to just like fucking get it done, how can I have that same softness with my team and with the people that I work with? I want to be someone that is an open door and a safe space and also can be trusted to be really strategic and like get some shit done.

Loren 15:41

There's an interesting thing, the focus on there, which is it's kind of related to the saying you can't love somebody until you love yourself. You can't lead somebody until you lead yourself. You can't be gentle with somebody until you learn how to be gentle with yourself.

Kristin 15:55

That's I've truly never thought of it that way. That's so beautiful. You know, as you say that, it makes me like have little visions in my head like popping in and out of the some of the more toxic bosses I've ever had, and how like really that is kind of what they needed, probably was a big hug and some self-love.

Loren 16:14

Yes. You don't even realize the ways in which a a person can respond from a place of self-loathing and the ways in which those might manifest themselves and be insidious. But I think leadership is a is a really bright spotlight that gets shined on you and how you relate to yourself. And if your house is not in order, your side of the street is not clean, then that's just going to pollute everyone else.

Kristin 16:41

You're just so fucking right. And I just I I really hadn't thought about it that way. I just don't know that anyone is ready for all the ways in which all your flaws are gonna be on display when you're a leader. Because in a a lot of times, as a leader, there really isn't a right answer or an easy answer. And so sometimes you're making really hard decisions. Your insecurities are gonna show, your biases are gonna show, your exhaustion's gonna show. Like there, you are going to be on full display. And a lot of people who, myself included, who are like used to working hard and used to being in charge and like want to be in control of everything. Like, I also wanted to be in close control of my image and how people perceived me. And when you are in a certain level of leadership, you actually can't. People will see your weaknesses, and your weaknesses then have to become your strengths.

Loren 17:33

Um, this was like a good time to talk about your astrological placements and how you think those show up in your work life. So, first let's give us please uh introduce us to your chart, your top three.

Kristin 17:47

I am a Capricorn sun, a Capricorn rising, and a Sagittarius moon.

Loren 17:53

Wow. I know that's uh quite a quite a dichotomy you have there.

Kristin 17:59

I'm I'm complicated, but also I'm not because I also have like four other planets in the sign of Capricorn.

Loren 18:05

Amazing. A boss bitch out the wound. You were just born for this, to quote Channy Nicholas. Yes. I was born for this.

Kristin 18:14

I was born this way.

Loren 18:16

To quote Lady Gaga. To quote Lady Gaga. Queer icons abound. How do you see this podcast as part of your larger life's work?

Kristin 18:26

All of this, all this time that I've spent pontificating the past and the the like the flaws and all of this work I've done on myself to overcome perfectionism, blah, blah, blah. Like these are things that I think that all of us go through. I think that we're all sort of in our own head telling ourselves stories about our work, our careers, our life, our meaning, our purpose. I just want to build a community through storytelling that allows people to just show up with their whole path and their whole self. Like sometimes we fucked up and the path didn't work out. Or sometimes the path just didn't work out because other people fucked up or are monsters. And that's okay too. The path is not linear, even in moments like where I am now, where I think, like, I've done so much and I kind of did it. Like I found myself at the table that I wanted to be at. And at the end of the day, I still have so much more passion to give. And here's a passion project that speaks to all of my special interests and all of my inner thoughts and dreams and desires. And I know that other people have those same stories and those same thoughts and dreams and desires, and I want to share those stories.

Loren 19:38

Okay. Since this is a very special episode where we're interviewing the host, we're going to have a lightning round before the lightning round. The shirt before the shirt.

Kristin 19:46

The shirt before the shirt.

Loren 19:48

So, lightning round. Don't overthink it.

Kristin 19:51

Oh God.

Loren 19:52

Capricorn stellium means you love order and love to be in charge. Favorite work ritual?

Kristin 20:00

I am an inbox zero gorelli, and it is a little controversial, but like I do have a ritual at the end or beginning of every day where I go through all my emails, action on them, file them away, and never look at them again.

Loren 20:14

What song sums up your career so far?

Kristin 20:18

Oh my God.

Loren 20:20

You wrote these.

Kristin 20:21

I wrote these questions, but I didn't study. I'm gonna say my favorite 90s JM, this is how we do it by Montel Jordan. And I don't know, it feels it feels like it sums up a nice, you know, this is how we do it. And no matter what we're doing, we're doing it.

Loren 20:40

Who would be a dream guest for Everything Counts?

Kristin 20:44

Okay, I have thought about this one, and I have a lot of different answers and a lot of different directions I could take. And one of them was I was thinking about Channy Nicholas, one of my favorite astrologers and podcasters. Um she inspires me in so many ways. But then it's her wife that comes to mind, actually. Her wife's name is Sonia. I believe that she's the business behind the business, right? She's not the face, but she's like helping to co-run this whole incredible business that they've built together. And she also has like a nonprofit for domestic abuse survivors. She's interesting. I would love to interview someone like her who's probably been through many past, been through many things, seen and done a lot, but isn't always the face and isn't always the story that's being told.

Loren 21:33

What does everything counts mean to you?

Kristin 21:36

Everything counts means that no effort is wasted. If you spent a year doing service, or you, you know, for a while thought you wanted to be a sonic manager, that still counted towards whatever path you're on. Like whatever it is you're doing right this second, even if you feel off track, it's part of your path and it counts.

Loren 21:57

Okay. So now let's get into the regular lightning round. These are the same questions that get asked to all of the guests. Do not overthink them. What was the very first job you ever had? And what did it teach you about work?

Kristin 22:13

The very first job that I had was at a bookstore. And it just kind of taught me about work. I really, you know, I didn't know. And so I remember doing all sorts of things like counting out the registers at night, vacuuming the floors. I remember like with whoever was like working with me, we would have to divvy up the closing, right? Like you go vacuum and I'll count out and whatever. And so there was a lot of like learning to work with other people, and then a lot of patience because it was a bookstore in the early 2000s. And let me tell you, there's a lot of check writing. People wrote checks for things, and you'd like ring them up, and the second they would whip out their checkbook, I'd be like, oh my God. And then I would see the line and I would start to panic. But I learned patience, like be sweet and kind through this moment with this person who's using a check. So maybe we'll go with patience.

Loren 23:08

What's one thing you believed about careers when you were younger that you definitely don't believe now?

Kristin 23:14

I really did believe you could like find a company that you love and believe in and you could just work your way up. Not to say that that doesn't happen, but it's it's less of a reality in today's world. And not only is it less of a reality just structurally, but it's not necessarily the fulfilling path for everyone. I think I thought, like, I'll just climb and I'll make it to the top. And when I'm at the top, I'll be fulfilled. And that is not how it works.

Loren 23:42

Best or worst piece of advice you've ever gotten.

Kristin 23:46

I actually think about grad school. Um, this really groundbreaking piece of advice where a professor told us it didn't have to be perfect, it just had to be done. And it was helpful. Like I was actually I was like young and I was a perfectionist and I was learning and for a Capricorn stellium.

Loren 24:04

That's like the most valuable information anyone could have given.

Kristin 24:08

I was like, can you go ahead and like stitch that on a pillow for me, please? Because I need to remember this all the time. That at the end of the day, you're gonna find flaws in your work, but it also just has to get out there. We have to get our work done, we have to get our voices out there, and we have to let go of perfectionism.

Loren 24:27

What's your career armor?

Kristin 24:29

That little thing you reach for when you need comfort at work, iced Americanos and black fingernail polish. Not that I'm painting my nails during work, the black fingernail polish is part of my armor, and the iced Americano is part of my blood at this point.

Loren 24:47

Most embarrassing work story.

Kristin 24:49

When early in my fundraising career, I was brand new. Not only was I a brand new fundraiser, but I was brand new at the organization, and they were throwing like a luncheon fundraiser. And um, and I was like sat at a random table. It was truly one of the most crowded table settings I've ever been at. Like I've been at lots of proper dinners with lots of crowded settings, but this was the most crowded setting I've ever experienced with like six glasses per person. Anyway, all I wanted was to reach across the table and get a glass of water. And I knocked a glass of wine onto the woman next to me, covered her in her own glass of wine, and apologized profusely, but she was not happy.

Loren 25:39

And I think about it all the time. Fixing typos and casual communication, yes or nah?

Kristin 25:46

Usually na. Like, usually I don't do it. I I do it more these days because I have found that my friends and family are big fixers of typos. But I used to argue that it was a power move to not fix them because people can tell what I'm saying. As long as I think the message got through, like it's fine. Let's just keep just keep going. I'm in a hurry. Let's keep going. So the short answer is no. The longer answer is I do sometimes fix my typos now.

Loren 26:16

And last question, what would your advice be to someone who feels off track right now?

Kristin 26:21

Everything counts. My advice truly is whatever it is you're doing right now is teaching you something, and you're gonna carry it with you to the next thing. And also that work, all work matters. Like whatever work you're doing that like you think is off track or wrong, or like better or worse than what you wish you were doing. It all matters and it's all important, and it does all count. I want to reflect on the words, nothing is real, because I'm a little self conscious of how many times I've made reference to this and I've said, nothing is real, everything's fake. And I I worry that that comes across as I don't take work seriously, I don't take my job seriously. And I do. I I I've also made reference, I think, to like once you get to the table, you're surprised at the table, which is true. So it's a little bit of both. I just want to make sure that I'm really clear that being a leader is very real, has very real implications, often very far-reaching implications. I take my work seriously. I think that being someone's boss is to be taken very seriously. It's a huge responsibility. I think the impact that you have as a boss on someone's life is so real. I mean, think about the bosses that have impacted us and how we felt at the end of every day with each boss that we've had. I really, really, really, really take that seriously. I have often find myself having to pause to remember that even though this is real and serious, it's a little made up. We are working on the fly. The decisions we make, there are best practices in every industry, but we make it up as we go. And we are all just humans sitting at a table making decisions. And sometimes they're the right decisions, and sometimes maybe they're a little flawed because of our humanity that's infused inside of them. And so I just as a leader constantly want to make sure that I'm not taking myself too seriously. I am just a human and I want you to see me as a human. And anyway, it's all of the things are wrapped up inside of it. So nothing is real. Truly, everything is made up. And also everything counts and everything's important. And that is the tension that I'm constantly holding inside. And that is what you'll see reflected in a lot of these conversations. And I want to make sure that I'm so clear that work is allowed to be taken seriously, and we're allowed to step back and remember that it's not always real. We are making it up as we go. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. See you next time.