Mary Ann: It's not that serious.

It's not that serious.

In this episode, Kristin talks with Mary Ann (she/her), a former ska-punk zine kid turned corporate law firm website manager, about what it really means to not dream of labor. They trace her path from AOL fan sites and popcorn shifts at the mall, through nonprofit burnout and film/TV detours, to a corporate web career that pays the bills without owning her identity. Mary Ann shares how books like Work Won’t Love You Back helped her de-center work, stop taking every email so personally, and build a life where quitting a bad job is an act of self-care. They also reminisce about early-internet nostalgia, hybrid work fashion, and the career armor that comes from remembering: we’re not saving lives here.

Transcript

Kristin: 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is one of my close friends. I'm really excited to talk to her because one special thing about this conversation will be her really kind of radical take on work. I think that she's been on a real journey to figure out how to find balance in her life when it comes to career. The place that she's landed at is something that inspires me. Marianne, she her, is a website manager at a corporate law firm with a background in web design and production. Her career has spanned sectors, including nonprofit and corporate, giving her a truly unique perspective. Marianne, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Wanted to get a couple things out of the way because these are my special interests. And I do think that they kind of like shape who we are and the paths that we take. So can you tell me about your astrological signs, birth order, anything about like family and early life that you feel like shaped you to this point?

Mary Ann: 1:21

Yes, amazing. I'm an Aries son, a Pisces moon, and oh my goodness, am I a Pisces or Aries rising? I know it's like two signs, but I think it's Aries, Pisces, Pisces. I also feel like it's double Pisces. Yeah, because I'm a sensitive girly. So with a side of fire. With a side of fire. And this is really funny because at my job we're doing disc assessments, which is essentially astrology for workplaces. Anyway, so I'm an Aries Pisces Pisces. Um I'm the youngest of two daughters, and I'm the daughter of immigrants. And so I think those are all things that shape my perspective about the role of career in a person's life, work ethic, that kind of thing. Will you tell us a short version of your career path? So my first job when I was in college was a computer lab monitor, which basically meant that I sat in a room while other students went into the computer lab. I'm aging myself because it wasn't the days of computer lab. So for the young for the young people listening, a computer lab is a room full of computers. Huge computers, right? Huge computers. They were literal machines. There was a tower, which is probably the size of it's like several laptops. Boots shoebox. Yeah, like a big shoebox. And my job as computer lab monitor was to turn on all the computers. If a computer was like freezing, I would restart it for them. If the printer was jammed, I would unjam the printer. And because I'm a neat freak, I always like wiped down the mice, computer mice, because the computer lab at my college used Apple computers. And so the mice back then, they were like kind of shiny. And so they always got fingerprints all over them. So I did that for a couple of years. So I went to school for what was called multimedia. And because it was an art school, the focus was more on um the theory and the concepts of things like interface design, information architecture, storytelling, and the very basics of visual art. And it was about combining art and creativity and technology. I naturally gravitated towards web design because I actually started creating websites in high school on AOL. I'm gonna date myself even more. My family got AOL when I was in high school and I started making websites pretty much immediately. That's so cute. It was fun for me because I saw websites as an extension of creating zines. Yeah. And for those listening who don't know, zines are essentially homemade magazines. And I did a lot of that in high school just with my friends for fun. And so I was like, oh, this is a digital way of doing collage, of making zines. And so I taught myself the very basics of HTML in like the mid to late 90s. And then by late 90s, early 2000s, I was in school trying to make websites because eventually I knew that I wanted to do that for my job. And I it took a lot of twists and turns after college, but that's what I'm doing now.

Kristin: 5:00

You were a cool ass kid. Like I just, I mean, 90s, making zines, I and then like having a philosophy about the internet and being like an extension of zine culture. Like, this is cool shit. Oh my god, thank you so much. What are the topics of your your zines? Like either the real ones or or the internet ones.

Mary Ann: 5:23

When I was in high school, I went to a lot of shows with my friends. Okay, I'm really gonna be vulnerable here because I I was a ska punk kid in the 90s, and my favorite band was Real Big Fish. And not only did I make a real big fish fan website on AOL, I also made a fanzine on paper with my friends. Obsessed.

Kristin: 6:02

This is where you and Loren bonded so well because you know they were also a high schooler making websites dedicated to Sinead O'Connor. So I love it, I respect it. Thank you. So okay, for thinking about where you are now, you're producing websites for a law firm. Do you ever think back to those days? Do you ever like channel your zine-making roots as you're producing websites for companies?

Mary Ann: 6:28

The short answer is no, but I look back on that time very fondly. And is that okay if I go back in time a little bit farther? Oh my god, yeah. So when I was really young in the 80s, my family had a Commodore 64 computer, and my parents got me a rainbow bright coloring program on floppy disk. I also had another program where I did like drawing on the computer and I could just make pictures. And I remember making, I guess, what I called mazes on the computer when I was like really, really young. I would draw squiggly lines on the computer and fill up the whole monitor. And then I would use the fill tool to change it to a different color. And then back then, instead of changing the whole thing all at once, it would snake through the designs and it would create kind of like an animation. And I thought that that was one of the most fun things ever. And I just loved doing it. I was like, oh, I found this way to make cartoons. And so that was my first experience like making things on the computer as a really young child.

Kristin: 7:50

I mean, that is truly, first of all, the 80s, not everyone had a computer, and not everyone was like tinkering with them for sure. And so that's pretty close to a calling. Like that's pretty amazing. While we're digging through the archives, do tell me more about your time in film and television, please. And thank you.

Mary Ann: 8:11

So after college, when I studied multimedia, I was making websites, I was doing other things like that. I felt I felt a little bit um burnt out, honestly, because I worked so hard to finish college, get my degree. Afterwards, I was like, I'm gonna take a break from everything websites, everything technology, and just figure out my life. I moved back home with my parents in New Jersey. I got a job in retail, and I was like, I'm just gonna save up some money and figure out what I want to do with my life. What kind of retail? I worked at Barnes and Noble. Oh, that's cute. I loved it. Um, I made a lot of friends there. Unfortunately, I met two ex-boyfriends there. Um at the time, I had a close friend who worked in television. And I I eventually became friends with her friends, and it was just something that was around me that everyone did. Anyway, first I got involved with this independent film that a friend of a friend was making, and I was technically a producer on the film, but it just meant that I did everything. But it was really fun and I enjoyed it. I actually ended up being a production office intern for the movie The Namesake. I filed papers, I ordered lunch. So that was my stint in filmmaking. Um, it turns out filmmaking, it's very hard to make a career out of it because at the time a lot of these jobs were unpaid. My friends that worked in TV, between jobs, they would always have to go on unemployment. So that wasn't for me. After my stint in film and television, I properly started my career and I got my first full-time non-freelance job in web design at a nonprofit organization. And that was so huge for me because that was my first really long-term job. And it was honestly life-changing because I met so many friends there. It was just a magical sweet spot where so many people were the same age. We were just getting started in our career. It was the golden age of happy hours in New York City. Oh, I miss it. And so many friendships built on happy hours and just hanging out. At the time, I was actually working on the website. I updated the website using hard-coded HTML. I was literally updating text-based HTML files and uploading the files through an FTP client. And to anyone who knows anything about websites, that is a very, very old-fashioned way of working. And I did that all day, every day. I also did a lot of digital design, creating graphics, using Photoshop, Illustrator. And I was there for about eight years. I was involved with website redesigns, launching new microsites, creating subbrands for the parent brand, launching all different types of projects. I eventually got promoted to manager, and I felt so cool because I was, I was still like in my late 20s. By then, we had moved on to a proper content management system. And I got more involved with project management. I started getting direct reports for the first time. And then after a while, I realized it was time to move on. I think by then I was so in the weeds. And I was at a point in my life where I was still taking things very personally at work. I didn't have the mental separation that I do now. And so I was very, very personally invested in the work that I did. And anytime there was a stressful situation, I would be so affected and I was so sensitive about it.

Kristin: 12:33

I needed a fresh start. Do you think you realized in that moment that that's how you were feeling and that's why you needed to go? Or was it more like, I just gotta go? And then you started to sort those feelings out later.

Mary Ann: 12:44

I think maybe I didn't realize it at the time. I just knew I needed a change of scenery. I got a job at another nonprofit. I'm sure it was not dysfunctional at all. It was perfect. It was not dysfunctional. Um, the end. Um, thanks for listening. That's my life. Just kidding. I got another job at another nonprofit at a slightly higher level. So I essentially gave myself a promotion and a raise. And that's when I learned that changing jobs is the best way to increase your salary and to promote yourself. Because if I had stayed at that previous job, my salary increases would have been much more incremental. But by changing jobs, I was able to kind of take a leap.

Kristin: 13:43

Also, you got to like you got to show up as a grown-up. I always find that when people start out young and then they like stay there a long time, you're never not 25 in everyone's eyes. So the second you showed up at a new job, you're like, hey, I'm an adult. Right?

Mary Ann: 13:56

You would think I was in my 30s at that point, but I still felt very young because I had two direct reports who were both older than me. And I was one of the younger people in that type of role. And I did have some positive experiences with that job. I got to work on a website redesign, a brand refresh. I worked with some awesome people. But after a while, I knew it was time to leave. By that time, I figured out that okay, this is my second nonprofit job where a lot of people take the job very, very personally. And I didn't really want to operate like that anymore because I didn't feel like my job was my identity in the same way that a lot of my colleagues felt. And so I left that job without another one lined up because I wanted to really focus on my job search and figure out my next step. And I also want to note that I know not everyone can do that. And I was very fortunate to be in a position where I was able to quit my job, be jobless for a couple of months, and not feel like I was struggling to pay my bills.

Kristin: 15:10

I've spent my whole career in nonprofits, and I would honestly kill to know what it's like to work on the corporate side. How did you do it?

Mary Ann: 15:20

I feel like I was easily able to transition from nonprofit to corporate because of the nature of my job. It's websites, it's technology, it's marketing. And so eventually I got a long-term contract role at a financial institution. I got great experience. And the job was very similar, although instead of a manager, I was an individual contributor. And I really enjoyed that. I, after years of being a manager, I liked just doing the work that I was good at, not being responsible for anyone else's career. It felt like a breath of fresh air.

Kristin: 16:05

Can you tell me what is web production? I know it's different from like web development, but I think I don't necessarily know what the ins and outs are.

Mary Ann: 16:16

So there's web design, web production, web development, and website management. And there's a lot of different roles in between. Web design is what's known as UI design now, the user interface design. Um, it wasn't called that back then, but essentially I was creating the visual designs of what a website looks like before it's actually built out. Web production is the production of websites. And so that would involve coding HTML, CSS, markup. So markup is essentially what you see. It's the visual components of the website. So a font, a font style, the colors of the web page, the visual structure of the page. And then as I got farther on in my career and as time went on, web production became more about editing pages and sites within a content management system. So I would do a lot of that, plus some level of customization. So that HTML that I learned all the way back in high school, I'm actually still using today on a regular basis because those basics always stay the same. Okay, so that's web production. Website management can mean a lot of different things. Today I would describe website management as being responsible for everything that encompasses a website. So today at my job, I am responsible for the web development. I don't do the web development, but I'm responsible for the team that does the web development. I'll give them requirements for a new feature. And when that feature is done, I'll test it. And if it meets the requirements, I'll approve it and then they'll push it through to production and basically make it live on the website. So I'm basically responsible for quality control on the website, everything from project management to controlling the flow of requests to also working on website strategy. That's a big part of my role now that I'm more senior in my career than I was five, 10, 15 years ago.

Kristin: 18:45

You have one of my favorite perspectives on work. I know that this was hard-earned. You went through a lot of thinking, reading, talking about how do you de-center work in your identity and sort of build up an identity outside of work. Can you talk about that a little and how you got there? What did you read? What did you think about?

Mary Ann: 19:08

Yeah, I don't dream of labor. That is for sure. I think over the years, I've just become a little bit more. I don't know if cynical is the right word, but I've never wanted to be a person whose job is their identity. I value my job and I value my career, but I feel like I've been around long enough. This is what my second, third recession. I don't know. All I know is that job security is not really a thing as much as we want to think it is. A person can work at a job for 10, 20 years and be let go for any reason at any time. And I feel like if that happens, I don't want to be devastated by that. I listened to a few great audiobooks related to this topic. One is called Work Won't Love You Back. I've actually, well, let's be honest, I listened to a handful of really great audiobooks around the exact concept of your job is not going to love you back. Corporations aren't people as loyal as you might feel to a particular job, a company or a manager, the company is only looking out for itself. Therefore, I have to look out for myself. It doesn't mean that I'm not gonna give 100% to my job because I do give 100% to my job. But I know that if this job goes away, then I'll be okay. And over the years, I've become really confident in my feelings around my relationship to work. If I know a job is not right for me, if I know it's not gonna be a long-term fit, I have no problem fucking bouncing.

Kristin: 21:11

You are a former punk kid. Oh my goodness. And, you know, I think if left to your own devices, your style would be like nice and alt and punk, but you work in these corporate environments and you have to navigate the fashion and self-expression. And I want to talk about how what that experience has been like going especially from like kind of a nonprofit land to a corporate land. Those are very different vibes. You probably had to update your wardrobe. Tell me more.

Mary Ann: 21:41

Yeah, I mean, when I started a nonprofit, I was in my 20s. I'm in my 40s now, and naturally my style definitely evolved. I'm no longer in an environment where I can wear jeans every day. And also, COVID was kind of a turning point in terms of my relationship with fashion and work. Because before 2020, I was in the office five days a week, like a lot of other people. There was no remote anything. 2020, everything changed. Because I work in an office, I was lucky enough to be able to work from home for about two years. Now I'm in a hybrid environment where I work in the office three days a week and I work from home two days a week. And for me, that's the perfect balance because as much as I love working from home, I discovered that I really need that human interaction. I need to put on shoes and put on an outfit and do my little commute on the train and like get a little coffee and then chit-chat with my coworkers. I mean, it helps that my coworkers are really friendly and cool. But yeah, I just really, really value that in-person interaction. My relationship to work fashion has evolved for sure because my last job was in a much more buttoned-up environment. It was a much more conservative corporate financial environment where people literally wore suits every day. And I felt like I was the more casual person. I felt like I was underdressed all the time. Now that I'm in a work environment where the dress code is more relaxed, I feel like I can express myself a little bit more. And I'm not gonna feel self-conscious if I wear a fun shirt. Not that my fashion sense is that out there, but I feel like I can just relax a little bit and wear things that I feel comfortable in rather than trying to fit into this very formal corporate environment where it felt like cosplay.

Kristin: 24:02

Yeah, I can imagine. Um, you're wearing a very cute sweater right now. Where is it from?

Mary Ann: 24:06

Thank you so much. Um my goodness, thank you. What is that store called? It's I'm literally showing you.

Kristin: 24:18

I was just thinking about Oh, Club Monica. Club Monica. Oh my god, that makes you feel so fancy. When I see Club Monaco, I'm like, okay, yes, you're in your 40s and you work at a law firm.

Mary Ann: 24:29

Yeah, so I actually I bought my first thing at Club Monaco right after I got this job. Because, you know, when you get a new job, it's like, okay, you gotta treat yourself with some new outfits. Yeah. But yeah, oh my God, thank you so much.

Kristin: 24:45

Like, I think it's kind of a perfect expression of this because it's a t-shirt, it's t-shirt shaped, but it's a nice sweater. It's a sweater. This is how we meet in the middle here in this capitalistic health. Yes.

Mary Ann: 24:56

And it's all about balance because yes, I can feel comfortable exposing my tattoos, but I do take out my nose piercing. It's well, you know, it's like right on your face. I could understand wanting to take that out. It's right on my face. I just don't want it to be a topic of conversation because it was at a previous job. And yeah, eyes up here.

Kristin: 25:20

Not at my nose, people. Only in my eyes. Let's switch gears. Let's do our lightning round. These are questions that I ask everyone. And I don't want you to overthink too much. We'll, I always say we'll go through them fast, but that's a lie. We're gonna go through them at whatever speed we want. What was the very first job you ever had, and what did it teach you about work?

Mary Ann: 25:41

I think my first job was at a popcorn store in the food court of the Freehold Raceway Mall in Freehold, New Jersey. I learned that blue popcorn makes your poop green.

Kristin: 25:56

Huh.

Mary Ann: 25:58

I was only there for like a couple of days. But yeah, blue food makes your poop green. That's a really important lesson. I really respect color theory. Color theory. Color theory, and that informed my work as a designer.

Kristin: 26:12

Absolutely. I have no questions. What's one thing you believed about careers when you were younger that you definitely don't believe now?

Mary Ann: 26:20

I was much more idealistic. 22-year-old me would have a meltdown if they knew that I worked in finance, that I'm working in the type of corporate job that I'm working in now. But I also think the 22-year-old me would maybe be proud of myself because I grew up to like have this kind of cool job that honestly like pays pretty well in New York. I've always wanted to work in New York. Like, I feel like when you like growing up in the suburbs of New Jersey, I always wanted to go to the city.

Kristin: 26:58

And I did. You did it. I mean, it actually really is a big accomplishment. I hope 22-year-old you is proud. What is the best or worst piece of advice you've ever gotten?

Mary Ann: 27:07

I think honestly, just the mantra, we don't dream of labor. I don't know where it came from. I probably saw it on Instagram somewhere. I was like, yes, that is now my personality. That's the one.

Kristin: 27:20

Yeah, no, it's beautiful advice. What's your career armor? So just something that like gives you comfort during the day, makes you feel strong.

Mary Ann: 27:31

My career armor is just knowing that there are no marketing emergencies. We're not saving lives. And it's not that serious.

Kristin: 27:44

Let's call it your career armor is perspective. Yeah. I like it. Love that. What's your most embarrassing work story? Besides the green poop. I mean, I don't know if that's embarrassing. That's just that was a that was a private embarrassment, which is now public. Very public. You've repeated it several times. It will be hard to delete.

Mary Ann: 28:13

Okay, I know. I was working at Barnes and Noble and I was very young, fresh out of college. And this was when I was still taking things so personally. A customer was mean to me. And nowadays I would be like, okay, lol, goodbye. But at the time it was soul crushing. And so I just like started crying, not in front of them, but I like remember crouching down behind the cash register so nobody would see me. Oh, and I was crying. And like, I mean, it's embarrassing for that mean person, um, but also like embarrassing for me because then my manager was like, Why don't you go take a break? Like, go to the break room, pull yourself together. Yeah, like I'm sure that you know it was very kind, but also he's like, This is a place of business.

Kristin: 29:07

Like, no, I feel like I'm sure people were crying left and right. Any any frontline service, people were probably crying all the time.

Mary Ann: 29:16

So if I had to give advice to that version of myself, I would say it's not that serious.

Kristin: 29:25

Fixing typos in casual communication.

Mary Ann: 29:29

Yes, 100% yes. Immediate yes. It's it's second nature. I can't help myself. And I do the the asterisk. Like if I'm texting or if I'm like on Teams and I misspell something. I know you can go back and edit it now, but I still, it's just force of habit. I do the asterisk and then spell it right.

Kristin: 29:54

I like it because it calls out what was edited. Because sometimes when you edit a text, it's like, what did you even? I didn't need to know what your typo. Gotta keep it honest. If texting could have tracked changes, I would be so happy. Um, I've never thought about texting having track changes, but I'm not mad at it. What advice would you give to someone who feels off track right now?

Mary Ann: 30:16

Don't be afraid to quit your job. Even if you love your coworkers and they're your best friends, like don't be afraid to leave a situation that is not serving you, especially if you've tried and tried and nothing is changing. And that goes for any type of relationship. It goes for jobs, it goes for romantic relationships, it goes for friendships. It's an act of self-care. It's taking care of yourself first and foremost because no one is gonna look out for you as much as yourself.

Kristin: 30:54

Amazing bold advice. Perfect way to end this. This was so fun. Thank you so much. Thank you. And like honestly, it was so blunt and so real. And it's something I also believe, but it still took me by surprise. And so it's sort of one of those moments, one of those philosophies that we need to say out loud more often, that we're allowed to walk away from things that are not good for us. Um, in the case of this podcast and of Marianne's advice, we're talking about jobs, but it really does stand for all parts of our lives. We have to look out for ourselves and we have to look out for the ways in which we find ourselves in toxic situations, and we have to figure out when and how to walk away if necessary. We can switch jobs. We don't need to have our jobs be our personality, and we're allowed to leave. And I also just wanted to sort of put a little exclamation point on the history lesson of the internet and computers, because that was so fun. And definitely, especially for us elder millennials, something we don't think about often is like all of the phases that we've lived through when it comes to technology and how we've navigated that and how that still informs our careers today. Since we're on episode five, I just want to ask that if you are listening and you are enjoying, I would love to hear from everyone. So you can leave a review wherever you're listening to podcasts, but I would especially love a review on Apple Podcasts, you know, for the algorithm. And you can also reach me at Kristen at everythingcountspod.com. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. I'll see you next time.