Josie: Put your foot down.

In this episode, Kristin talks with Josie (she/her), a project engineer in the construction industry who helps manage the building of massive projects like hospitals and data centers. Josie shares how she found her way into construction after starting in civil engineering and realizing she wanted something more hands-on, practical, and people-centered. She reflects on choosing an unconventional path to college, leaving New Jersey for the University of Wyoming, and the sweet story of her dad moving nearby to support her while still giving her space to grow.

Together, Kristin and Josie talk about confidence, credibility, and what it means to put your foot down as a young woman in a male-dominated field. Josie offers thoughtful insight into learning to trust your voice, speak with authority, and accept that not everything that looks good on paper actually works in real life. Funny, grounded, and quietly wise, this episode is a conversation about building a career, and a life, that actually fits.

Transcript

Kristin 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, day towards, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello, and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is someone I'm so excited to talk to and learn from. She is in an industry that is so far from my expertise. And, you know, this is going to be such an interesting conversation. I think we have a lot to dig into. And so, with that said, Josie, she her, is early in her career as a technical builder, currently acting as project engineer managing mega hospitals and large data center campuses. In her free time, she loves escaping to the world of books and taking her dog silly on adventures. Josie, welcome.

Josie 0:58

Thank you.

Kristin 0:59

I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to have you. To get us started, will you just tell us what it is you do now? What is your current job?

Josie 1:08

So I work in the construction field. Um, I work for a very large general contractor, and I'm a project engineer, which is essentially on track to be a project manager of a team building technical builds, could be hospitals, data centers, life sciences, just big commercial buildings, essentially.

Kristin 1:28

I think of a lot of things when I hear all of these words. And so let's just clarify what they actually mean because I don't know anything. Is this a lot of like desk work designing, or is this a lot of field work, or is it a little bit of both?

Josie 1:39

Kind of a little bit of both, but I I'm gonna move away from the word designing. So it starts as desk work and it's just like any other project management role where you are leading a team, you're working with your client. In my case, it would be the owner of the property. And then I also work very closely with the architect and the engineers. So separately, we are contracted by the owner and they design everything. We look at their design and we tell them, yes, we can build this. Like your details work. And then we take their design and make sure all of our trade partners building it in the field are essentially following it, using the correct materials, building it to a high quality and safely. So it's just like any other project manager where you're you're managing a group of people and you're managing the cost of a project.

Kristin 2:38

So you are also coordinating, managing the trades, the like the different moving pieces as a build is happening. Yes. Okay, okay. For context, I once upon a time was married to an architect. We met in college. So I used to joke that I had like architecture degree by proxy. And so that is all I know is the like very like, here's a pretty design. And then I, you know, architects are just designing and they hand it over to the people that do the actual like figuring out how to build it and whether or not that's yes engineeringly going to happen.

Josie 3:15

Correct? Yes. Yes. And the term for that is called constructability. Like anything in life, just because it works on paper does not mean it works in real life. And I I feel like that can cross over many different parts of your life. So we have this design that the architect, like the architect builds the pretty picture, and then the engineer will will kind of like draw out the details between it, and then we'll tell them, like, actually, we we can't do that because like we physically cannot move this material that way, something like that. We put it all together.

Kristin 3:51

It it makes sense. I appreciate your willingness to sort of take it down to its like dumbest roots for me. I imagine though that when you tell people what you do for a living, you probably get a lot of questions or a lot of assumptions. How would you describe it to a person at a party?

Josie 4:07

So I would probably start by telling them, like, oh, I build hospitals. And then I would say I manage the people building it. And again, I make sure they're following the plans, that they're doing it correctly on time and on budget. And I communicate between the people building it and the people who own it, because just like you and I have this conversation, they don't all speak in the same language. So I'm the middleman between like the engineers with their very scientific, mathematical brain and the owner who doesn't always necessarily know what they're talking about. I make sure everyone can speak the same language.

Kristin 4:52

I love that description. I think it sounds so cool. Okay, we're gonna come back because I want to know everything about everything. But first, let's go back to the beginning of your life. Tell me about um, tell me about anything from kind of your childhood that may have shaped you into who you are today. That could include your birth order, your family, your astrology, anything that kind of speaks to you and reflects how you became who you are today.

Josie 5:19

I am from Jersey and I am so proud to be from New Jersey. It's one of my favorite things about myself. I did grow up as the youngest of four kids. So I have two older sisters and a brother. And I'm kind of unique because I am so much younger than everyone else. So I I am the youngest child, but I also kind of have a little bit of like older child's qualities as well. Because during my peak growing up stage, everyone else was out of the house. And it was just me and my parents, which was an also very interesting uh time because I got to see a whole different side to my parents that they didn't. My parents are much older for my age, like compared to my siblings. So my dad was retired when I was in high school, and I got to spend a lot of time with him that my siblings didn't have. So I think that for me just makes that part of my childhood very different than the rest of them. I'm also a Gemini, so I can be very complex. I know Gemini is get a lot of hate. Unfairly. But I'm I'm also proud to be a Gemini. Yeah, I agree. Unfairly.

Kristin 6:28

I mean, I think the Gemini in you is what allows you to translate between different languages and work functions.

Josie 6:35

Oh, yeah. It's very good because I can put on like my owner face and then my trade partner face, and they're they're two very different things. So it's kind of fun.

Kristin 6:44

It's very Gemini of you. What kinds of interests did you have as a kid that that may have led you here? Were you into construction and math and science?

Josie 6:54

Not construction. So honestly, no one in my family worked in construction. This was not something that I grew up surrounded by. I fell into construction because I I found it on my own, like through school. I've always loved math. Always. I do have like a slight artistic side when I want to be, but I am a math person. I loved doing math homework growing up. It was so satisfying that it all just works. There's no ambiguity. This is the answer, and I know it's right. Like I love that feeling. And I got to high school, and we had some college entry engineering classes that we could take where I started to learn CAD and like principles of design. And I got to do some like construction and like engineering competitions in high school. And I just kind of started to like figure it out and really focus in on it. I don't know, it just took me wherever I could go. Okay. So from high school, you went to college. What did you study in college? Yeah. So I started out studying civil engineering. I was between civil engineering and architectural engineering. So I would say when I was in high school, I knew I was going to go to school for some type of engineering. It was just narrowing it down. I spent a semester at school doing civil engineering, listening to all of these professors coming in and out telling us the different sectors of civil engineering that we could go into. And I was just like, this is so boring. I cannot do this for the rest of my life. But there was still an aspect that I was like, I want to sort of do this, but not this. And my advisor was like, oh, we have this new program. It's called construction management. You should go talk to the professors and see if that's what you want to do. And I did, and it was very, very similar to all of the classes that I took in high school. And I switched majors that semester. And the very first class I had so much fun in. It was more hands-on, but still like technical. Like here are the rules, this is what you do. And I was so excited. So I stuck with it for the next four years.

Kristin 9:07

I love that you found it. You found the right intersection of things. You know, I happen to know that you went to college away from home. And I also think that your dad went with you. Can you talk to me? Talk to me about either of those things. What made you go far away from home? And then any reflections on having your dad join you.

Josie 9:27

So being the youngest of four, I got to see my siblings before me go through the college stage. And both of my sisters went to very, very expensive schools. And I had kept hearing for the last so many years, like, oh my God, my student loans, it's going to be so much. And when it came down to me, I was like, all right, I'm going to like take this as a lesson from them. And I still want to go where I want to go. Like, I don't want to sacrifice the so-called best years of my life, but I want to maybe be a little smart about it, I guess. So for me, going to school in New Jersey for engineering and like knowing my grades and everything, I like I did very, very well in high school, but I knew that compared to everyone else and the competition in the state, it was still going to be really expensive for me to go to school in New Jersey doing what I wanted to do. So I knew I was going to go to out of state. And quite literally, I just Googled the cheapest schools that have this major. And jokingly, the University of Wyoming was like one of the top five cheapest schools in the nation. And I was actually on the way back from a different college tour. And my mom was like, oh, haha, you're not going to go to Wyoming for college. And it became a joke in my family. And then I started researching it that weekend. And I was like, no, it actually looks like so much fun. They have a great program. So I toured it. I went and I fell in love. And my parents knew right away that that's I wasn't going to look at another college.

Kristin 11:03

I have some friends that went to grad school there. It looks stunning. Like Wyoming itself looks so beautiful. And I don't, it's not like a place where a lot of people travel to.

Josie 11:13

So it's a really cool thing to have done. It is. It's awesome. So that is where my um that's where my dad coming to college with me kind of comes into play. Um so again, I mentioned my dad was retired when I was in high school. It's no secret that I'm his favorite child. We all know it. Youngest children usually are. Exactly. Exactly. So him and my mom were a little nervous about me being like that far away from home. I was over 2,000 miles away from home, two time zones away. And no one else in my family had really done that before. And they didn't think I couldn't do it, but it was really, really far. And even getting to Wyoming, it's not an easy place to get to. Like you have to fly into a different state and then drive like three hours to get to the college town. And then you are literally in the middle of nowhere. It's not a city, it's not everything is immediately accessible there, like everywhere else. So my parents were a little bit apprehensive about that. And again, my dad's retired. So he was like, I have nothing to do. I can just go spend some time out there. But my dad is great and he's always been very, very supportive about college experiences and knowing that this is a very important time of your life where you start to figure yourself out. So he was like, Listen, I'm gonna move out there, but I don't need to hang out with you. You know, come come see me every once in a while, but like I'm not trying to ruin your experience or or make it anything less than what it should be. And I mean, he he didn't. I honestly I got free meals from him. I got to do laundry for free at his apartment. And we went on some cool adventures together and he loved it out there. And it it really wasn't weird for me to have him there. I I loved it. And he still he had no idea what I was up to, so it was fine.

Kristin 13:17

I think it's beautiful. Um, like truly so sweet and also so lovely to hear from your side that like it wasn't weird. It was just that you had a parent nearby. Um, here's where I will tell the listeners that Josie's dad is my mom's boyfriend, question. Yes. Um, and I am very protective of my mother, as most kids are. And that story felt like a really green flag, especially to know that you both experienced it with such joy and like no pressure. It's a real green flag, but like you are that close to your dad, and you know, it's just it's very special. And I really think it's a cool part of your story. Yeah, thank you. Me too. So talk to me about the transition away from college and into your career. What did that look like? Where did you land?

Josie 14:10

So, probably like most people, their senior year of college, I went to a ton of job fairs. My issue at this point, because I had gone to school so far away, was that I knew I wanted to come back to the East Coast. And because Wyoming is so isolated, most of the companies that I was introduced to and did internships were not on the East Coast. So I really had to kind of just like figure that out completely different than everyone else who I was going to school with. Thankfully, one of my sister's boyfriends at the time, uh, they're they're now married, but he works in the same field. He went to school for the same thing I did. So he found that out and we started talking. And I was like, what do I do? How do I figure this out? How do I get connections on the East Coast? And he was on the East Coast. So he just kind of started talking to me about all of these companies he had heard of. He connected me with a bunch of his friends within the industry, and I would just kind of like picked their brains for advice. I didn't really know what sector of construction I wanted to go into. Believe it or not, construction has many, many different fields that you can explore. And I was very lost about figuring out where to take my first step. But he told me, like, you will figure it out. It's okay. And you can't really go wrong. So he ended up telling me about the company that he worked for and how amazing the culture was and how much he loved it, and that there were offices everywhere. And I was like, Yeah, that sounds amazing. I would love to apply. So he was able to refer me and I went through the interview process with them, and I've been with him ever since. So that's that's been really fun for me.

Kristin 15:59

That's so everything about that is so like perfect and incredible that he was so supportive. Now that you're more established, I actually don't know how many years it's been in the role or in the in the field. How many years have you been? Three and a half. Three and a half. You have a little bit more experience and you know, you're leading projects. And so I imagine you're leading lots of different people, but a lot of men, I might assume. So talk to me about like what did you do to sort of find your authority, your credibility to navigate those moments as a young woman.

Josie 16:33

So for me, that that starts back in college. So there were 23 total people in my graduating class with my major. And I was one of three girls in that class. But I was like the president of our major, if you will. And I went to college with a bunch of country boys. So I learned very quickly, you know, how to put my foot down and kind of speak up a little bit, which was very helpful. I hated it at the time because I was like, why can't they just accept this and be okay with it? But in the long run, it paid off for me because when I did come out in the industry, I knew that it was just going to be more and more of that, especially in construction. You get your specific type of people. I was the only woman on my very first project, and that was kind of scary at first. I wasn't sure how comfortable everyone else would be. It was like my first week, and I was there, you know, brand new out of college. And they told me right away, like, you have a right to be here. If anyone tells you differently, let us know. And they did not treat me any differently for it. And I have recently been told by that team that I very quickly like put my foot down and showed everyone that I was there to prove it, not to them, but to myself. I learned very quickly that I am not going to let people talk to me or treat me a certain way just because I am a woman. And, you know, it it's not something that's gonna really go away anytime soon in my industry. So I go in with a certain face, a certain attitude about it. And by the end of the conversation, the person on the other end, they understand what's happening.

Kristin 18:14

I love it. Very new jersey. I want to know more about that, about that face. Like I have a couple questions inside the question. Do you feel like it's authentic? Do you feel like you're having to like really reach inside you to put on that face? And also, can you kind of describe it? Can you tell us what you what you do when you walk in a room and you need to like be authoritative?

Josie 18:38

It's your confidence, which is something I also struggle with still all the time. But physically, if you let people see that you might not be confident about something, they're already going to be second guessing you. And if someone asks me a question and I do not know the answer at the time, I won't be afraid. I learned the easiest, best answer for everyone is to just say, I don't know that, or let me go get you the correct answer. And it's better to do that than say something and be wrong. But also, I have come to realize something about myself. I'm not gonna say something if I don't believe in it. If I don't know the answer, I'm not going to support someone else's decision unless I feel 100% what they're saying is true. So I established that very early in my career. So the people I was sitting in the room with knew when I was speaking up about something, I'm 100% in what I'm saying and I know it's the truth. And it created a point where they didn't have to even offer to question me or to question if that was correct. And I guess that's like a credibility thing, but I would just kind of like trick myself to say, like, you know, you got to sound confident whether you like maybe you're 90% instead of 100, you got to deliver it like you're 100%, and you can't let them see you get flustered. Like you can do that after the meeting by yourself or or talk to someone about it, but like during the meeting, during the conversation, you need to keep your cool. And that has made a big difference for me.

Kristin 20:10

I think you have so quickly learned and implemented lessons that a lot of women take a really long time to learn and implement. So it seems like you might have a little bit of an innate way, but also I'm wondering what you might tell someone if you were mentoring a young person. Would it be a tone of voice, uh nonverbal language? Like, I don't know. I'm curious if there's like a few things that you could pinpoint that have really helped you that you would give advice to about.

Josie 20:41

Really, I would say tone of voice, like get comfortable with yourself and understand that you are the person who has you. And again, don't try to prove it to other people, prove it to you. Like, what do the other people in the room matter if you're the one that is ultimately going to beat yourself up about it later? Like you have to be okay with that. And it's it's hard, but every single person that you are ever in a room with was in your position at one point. They were at one point the lowest person in the room. So it's it's not a lonely feeling. Everyone has been there. I don't know if that makes sense.

Kristin 21:17

No, it does. I'm I'm actually just in awe. I think there's this is also rich for all women, especially, to really take in what you're saying and think about the ways in which we might get triggered. The, you know, like what what impacts our tone? What is it that makes us like like in a moment? Yeah. It's just really impressive that you have stepped into this really seamlessly. I have a silly but not silly question. I love fashion. So I want to know do you put thought into what you wear, like going into the field or depending on your day, what kind of outfits you put together? Oh, yes.

Josie 21:57

This is actually the one thing I hate about. My job. Sometimes I do wish I could be like a corporate girly that could wear all the cute clothes and have have all the cute fun girly things. It's it's not that fun always. I feel like we have to work harder at it. I have to wear jeans to work, especially like if I'm on the job site, you need to wear full-length jeans every day and boots. The boots you can make cute and you know comfy, whatever, but I love a cute fashion sneaker. I'm obsessed with them. So like I can wear them to work and then I get to work and I have to change. And always a good jacket, unless it's like the dead heat of summer, always a good jacket because in construction, the building you're in will have some sort of breeze generally. Like the heating cooling situation isn't always up to par. But I'll wear something that I'm okay if it gets a little dusty or dirty because again, it is construction and I I do go out in the field every day and I am exposed to that. But also I've reached a point where I'm like, you know what, I still want cute things. So as long as I have a good layer on top of it that can protect the cute things, then it's fine. I've recently gotten to work on a project where there are a lot of women, and we all kind of take fashion very seriously and we'll share our cute construction outfits together. So that does make it fun.

Kristin 23:26

What's your like? I don't know, is there like a brand, a cute jacket brand that like all the girlies go to?

Josie 23:33

Yeah, so I like I'm wearing this Carhartt shell right now. Carhartt actually has really cute women's stuff. I like neutrals, so I'm into their like OG brown canvas color, but they have really cute, like pink girly stuff. I know not everyone is into the pink girly, and that's okay, but they have really fashionable things. More and more there are women-owned, women-made clothing brands for women only in the construction field. I forget the name of the brand, but like they make boots that are only for women, designed by women, and they're cute. You would never know that I'm gonna wear these on a construction site. They look like a normal, cute Chelsea work boot situation. They're just steel toe. And then I love Target, so everything else is probably gonna be Target, to be honest. It was very hard to find that though. Like when I first started, I was so concerned about what to wear to work because I didn't know. It's such a unique challenge.

Kristin 24:35

I saw on Instagram the other day that there's like a car heart thrift store in New Jersey. Have you been there?

Josie 24:41

It's in New Jersey. Yes. No, I I saw it literally yesterday. I want to go so bad. It looked so cool.

Kristin 24:49

When you're in New Jersey next, can we go? Because yes, I need to go. The good news is everyone wants to be dressed like the everyman these days. And Carhart is doing it. Yes.

Josie 25:02

Yes, they are, but they have like they have good women's cut or like women's fit that has just come out, I think, in like more recent years as they've gotten more popular. And it's my favorite. I'm so thankful for them. It's the they have cute stuff and it lasts for a really long time, which is important in my industry.

Kristin 25:23

So okay, we're gonna switch gears and go to the lightning round. What was the first job you ever had, and what did it teach you about work? Uh, my first ever job is at Taco Bell.

Josie 25:36

Love that. Um I I actually loved it there. That's so funny. Talk about still one of my favorite places. It did teach me that I love to work in chaos. Like I I love the fast pace. Um, not necessarily of the like service industry. I don't ever want to go back to that. But I I love like having to juggle a bunch of things at once. I think I'm I'm pretty good at it. And I like the adrenaline rush.

Kristin 26:04

I love that too. That is also how I learned that I like chaos. I just chose chaos in a different way. But I respect it. What is the best or worst piece of advice you've ever received?

Josie 26:18

Just go for it. Just just take every opportunity that comes your way and say yes. Unless it very strongly feels like no, like not a good idea. Say yes, because you never know what doors it could open to you that you did not previously think were possible.

Kristin 26:35

Beautiful advice. What's your most embarrassing work story?

Josie 26:39

My first quarterly meeting with my company. Our office gets together for like a later work meeting where they serve us dinner. Um, and we just run through like the quarterly wins and just like status updates. I was not only asked to give the update on my current project that I had been on for like maybe a month and a half, but because I was new, they also made all of the new hires go up and sing karaoke to the song Friends in Low Places while wearing mullet wigs. And and that was extremely embarrassing for me. Uh, and there were there were a few drinks involved, so no one's karaoke was good either, but I have some personal trauma about that. I I still think about it.

Kristin 27:32

Wow, that's a real way to haze people.

Josie 27:36

Yeah, it is great.

Kristin 27:40

What is your socially acceptable work vice?

Josie 27:44

I love a coffee, but it it has to be a very like I want a latte and I love it if I make it. I I just love making my coffee because like I make it right. I also love a good like headphones on, eat lunch by myself, and just uh I don't want to talk to anyone. I just need like half an hour to reset myself.

Kristin 28:07

That's so real. I love a good five minutes in the bathroom alone. So actually the lunch thing makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. I love don't don't talk to me, let me eat. Yeah. No one even perceives me right now. What is something about your job that sounds impressive, but actually isn't that glamorous?

Josie 28:29

I mean, the fact that like I get to tell people I build hospitals, I think is really impressive. Then when you think about it, and like it's winter right now and a snowstorm, and the building is not closed, and I have to walk through like muddy snow water and it's 20 degrees outside, but I still have to be there. No one wants to do that, and it's it's the worst thing ever, but we can't avoid it. So that's that's not glamorous. That sucks.

Kristin 28:58

You gotta like, you gotta go and check on it. I mean, it but it does sound so cool to be like, I build hospitals. That's that's awesome. Do you fix typos in casual communication?

Josie 29:11

So if I see it, yes. But I've recently got into this habit where like I won't reread my text and my auto-correct has something against me, and it will just completely rewrite my sentence. But yes, I like proper punctuation all the time.

Kristin 29:29

Last question. What would your advice be to someone who feels off track right now?

Josie 29:34

You're not off track, you are laying a new track. Maybe you can't see where it's going, but you're laying a new one and potentially avoiding a backwards track that you were on. You never know.

Kristin 29:47

Um, Josie, this was so fun. And I need you to know that I am genuinely so inspired by you and I'm so grateful that you that you came on to to join us. And really, thank you, thank you. It was so fun being here. Thank you for having me. There are two words that I want to pull out of this episode and really think about for a second. Those two words are confidence and constructability, right? One is confidence. There's often a confidence gap, especially for a woman entering a field that is so dominated by men. And she has learned so many lessons and she's learned to stand her ground in a way that takes some of us years, decades to learn. I think we can really learn a lot of lessons from Josie about confidence and really showing up as ourselves and putting our foot down. I just really want to like sit with that. But I really also want to talk about constructability, the idea that in a construction project, she says something might work on paper, but it might not actually work in real life. How deep is that? That is so reflective of also our lives and our careers. And sometimes we start out our jobs, our work, our whatever it is. We start something out and thinking this works out so well on paper. This is beautiful. This is my best design yet. And then you start to do it and live it, and it's not actually workable, it's not real. So constructibility. I want that to be a word that we all just start using. Like, sorry, but let's check on the constructibility of that idea. New corporate speak incoming. Anyway, I want us all to really just this week sit with the words confidence and constructibility. I want us to reflect on our confidence and the lessons we've had to learn to stand in our own confidence and maybe the places where we can find a little more. And I want us to think about constructibility. I want us to always be delusional and have grand ideas, but be really comfortable with the fact that an idea can be a really good idea and it might just not work out in real life. And that's okay, we'll come up with a new idea. As always, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening. Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And please come find us, look for us on Instagram, look for us on LinkedIn. And recently I joined Substack. You can find me at everything counts Kristen. I am writing some of my behind the scenes thoughts and feelings. So come join me in think and feel. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. See you next time.