Vera: Why not?

In this episode, Kristin reconnects with Vera (she/her), a public sector professional working in the Dutch national government, to explore a career that took shape slowly and unexpectedly over time. From moving to the U.S. after college and taking on a series of “random” jobs to returning to school and ultimately finding purpose in public service, Vera shares how her path came together in hindsight even when it didn’t make sense in the moment. 

Together, they unpack the realities of government work, the importance of bridging policy and real life, and what it means to contribute to change from behind the scenes. It’s a conversation about timing, support, and the quiet accumulation of experience. And a reminder that feeling “off track” might just mean you’re still in the middle of becoming.

Transcript

Kristin 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is one of my first friends in New York, which was kind of a lifetime ago. And her life was always really global and very layered. And it has since become even more global and even more layered. And I can't wait to hear everything that you've been up to. Vera, she her is a public sector professional based in the Netherlands, where she works at the intersection of policy and execution to ensure equitable funding for education. She began her career without a clear path, moving across countries, taking a range of roles, and eventually returning to school to pursue public administration before finding her way into government work that aligns with her values. Welcome to the show, Vera. Hi, thank you for having me. So good to talk to you. It's so exciting to talk to you. And my first question: what are you doing these days? What's your job?

Vera 1:18

You and I met in New York, but since then I've moved back to the Netherlands, my home country, and I'm living in Amsterdam and I'm working for the Dutch national government, working for the education department. And in the Netherlands, education is funded at a national level. So not of this local approach that the US has. So I work in a team and we work on the funding of all secondary education in the country. So we make sure that the schools get their money every month. I work together with the ministry, with the policy staff. They come up with policies about which student populations they want to spend more money on. And then we have a conversation from the agency side. Can we do this? Or it's really making sure that the policies they come up with we can actually execute monetarily. It's difficult to do this in English because I always speak about this in Dutch. So like I'm having to switch a little bit. I mean, we'll just note that you aren't speaking in a second language. Yes, and I speak English all the time with my spouse, but still, speaking about work when you work in a different language, that's always makes my brain hurt just a little bit. That's fair. Well, thank you for bravely doing this. So the way they've split this up is you have the Department of End, where you have all the policymakers. They see there's a lot of poverty in certain areas in the country, they want to send more money, more funding to schools in those areas where there is higher poverty, for example. And then the agency that I work for is the agency that has to make sure that we can automatically disperse that funding to those schools in those areas with higher poverty. So in order to do that, you need to know a few things like what is the definition of poverty? How much money do you want to send? Do you know which students are at those schools? There's all these details that you need to know in order to execute a policy that says we are going to send more funding to schools in high poverty areas. Incredible. Figure out all those details. So I talked with the policymakers. They tell me what they want. There's a practical approach to can we identify the student group that you're trying to support? And then there is also the policy side of maybe you don't need to be sending more funding there. Maybe there's a different approach to policy you can make. So I like thinking about those two things.

Kristin 3:49

Um I mean, I don't know the inner workings of the US government, to be clear, but I do not think that there is such an open dialogue. It sounds really cool that there's an open dialogue between the folks making it happen on the ground. You are like making implementing these policies and the policymakers.

Vera 4:08

You're having conversations and you're And that is that is somewhat of a recent development within our country. When I had just moved back five years ago, there was a big, big scandal where the Dutch national tax agency had been executing tax policy in such a way that it discriminated against several groups of people. And there was a lot of like, well, we only did what was in the law, that kind of attitude. And so there was a really big, uh rightfully so, backlash against, hold on, as a government, we bankrupted people, we destroyed families because you were just executing this law, and no one had said, or maybe some people did, but not enough people said, hey, look, by executing this policy, it means in real life A, B, and C for these families. And so there's since then, luckily, there's much more of a room for discussion and openness. Like, okay, policy is great on paper, but what does that mean when you execute it, when it's happening? What are the unattended side effects? There's a lot of that that we now have room to speak up about. And I can I notice with my colleagues, I have a lot of colleagues who've worked at this agency for 20, 30, 40 years. Different generation. They, you know, they started when they were 22 and they stayed. Their approach is like, well, the Department of Ed, the ministry, as we call them in Dutch, they say we have to execute it this way. This is the policy they want, this is what we're gonna do. Where newer colleagues and younger colleagues, like me, calling myself young, compared to my colleagues.

Kristin 5:57

Yeah, compare.

Vera 5:58

Um so young. We have a much more like, but wait, if we do this, that means maybe that the schools, for example, have to submit so much paperwork to get this money, that's impossible. You're putting in a a burden on them to get this funding that's not realistic. We look at it from the school's perspective a lot more, whereas before it was like, we are the national government, I mean it's sending you money and you take the money and you don't complain. And now we are switching towards being more of a public service provider where we're like, okay, schools, they should just get funding from us. And yes, they should report on what they do with the money, but there's a balance between what they need to report on and what we as a government we trust them to do the right thing with the money. So there's definitely a switch there. And it's really nice to be there at this moment to actually advocate for the schools for our customers. Now we're much more in a conversation together, much more finding this balance between spending government money, but you also want to trust the schools and look at it from their perspective. What hoops? Are there hoops too big or are there too many hoops? And the funding happens on a regulation level. So every regulation has like its own funding stream. So as a school, you get like 80% of your money comes every month in one payment. But then you have all these other little regulations. Like schools get more money if they're in poverty areas, but there's also more funding if you have a lot of immigrants who are just learning the language and you they need extra support to learn the language. So as a school, you get more funding for that. Uh, you also get more funding if you are a school in a rural area and you cannot collaborate as much with other schools around you. So there's all these other little funding streams that come into your school. And we try to make the policymakers aware of that. Like it gets really confusing. It's much easier if you put it all together. So we have those kinds of discussions to see it more from the school's perspective. And so this happens with different agencies. So I'm in education, we do school funding, but our agency also does student loans. So also there we look at like, okay, where is a student coming from? What hoops does he have to go through? What are those hoops really necessary? Can we more proactively tell a person that they also have the right? You have a basic scholarship everyone gets. And some kids can get more because of the income of their parents. We have this information, so why don't we proactively say, hey, look, you should double check, but we think that you actually have the right to additional funding, an additional scholarship. And so that approach is very, very new and it's exciting to see that happening. But it came after a big, big scandal at the tax agency. But it woke everyone up.

Kristin 9:06

Yeah, that the ability for a country to have something like that come to light and then fix it is amazing. So I don't know for your system.

Vera 9:17

No, and I I think for a lot of people who were hurt in the tax scandal, I don't think they would consider it fixed yet. That particular part. I did a little stint at the tax agency when I first landed back in the country, and in that role, I just needed a job. So I went to a temp agency, which is kind of like I was thinking about my career, and I got a lot of jobs through a temp agency. Like in New York, New York, right? Yeah. Yeah. I I so I worked at that agency, and I got to meet a lot of the families that were hurt by the the mistakes that were made, and it was it was heartbreaking. And still, so they were trying to fix and compensate families and citizens for what happened, and that turned out to be a very, very big job, and they're still working on it. Some people were compensated, some people are still waiting to get resolution on this. But the positive thing or the silver lining is that we, in national government at least, have many more of these conversations about what does the policy actually end up doing and is it reasonable? So we are as a country, I think, much more aware of that. Sometimes the the policies are really well intended, but if the hoops are too big and too many hurdles that people won't use it, can't use it. And then then you can say, Oh yes, we're eradicating poverty, but if people can't access the services, then you need to change it. And I guess it's part of also why I went into government work to, you know, make a difference, make things better. And so then to see a government that can learn and like adjust, it gives me makes me happy to be part of that.

Kristin 11:05

I think that's really cool. Yeah. And for the record, you answered there's a second question in the section around like what's lighting you up lately, and it seems like you answered it around like getting to be part of this moment of change. Is that how you would answer it? Yeah, I think so.

Vera 11:21

I mean, and uh the to be fair, there's also I have colleagues who just don't want to change and they're just they're kind of stuck in their ways, but there's also a lot of people retiring in the next five to ten years. So there's hope.

Kristin 11:38

Yeah. In the nicest way. So thank you for the overview of what you are currently doing. We will come back to dig into some of that. I want to go to your origins, and this is the section where we do talk about astrology, birth order, um, and any other like ways in which you grew up, like the culture that you grew up. What are the kinds of things from your foundation that you think sort of have informed who you are today? Do you do do you do astrology? No. Well, I will say for the listeners that sh she's a Capricorn, um, which probably informs who who you are and how you are.

Vera 12:14

Yeah, I'm sure it does. Um, well, for a long time, and I guess I still feel like this a little bit, but for a long time I didn't know what I wanted to do with life. I am the younger of two. My brother was, he always knew what he wanted. He was very clear he was gonna do things with AI and computers and robotics. And he did that when he was 10, and he now is a professor at a university here doing AI. So he was always very clear. And so compared to that, I've always felt like I was floundering. I wasn't sure what to do. I studied American studies. Why? Because it sounded fun and I needed something to study. It was kind of in the sense like have an academic degree is good in life, and then after that you can do whatever. Uh so I I didn't know what to do. And then during that study, I ended up going to exchange year, and I met the person who was now my husband, who's been my husband for 20 years this year.

Kristin 13:17

20 years, that's why.

Vera 13:18

Yes. Yes. Uh it's been a while. So it was a good, you know, I can recommend it to anyone. Go abroad for a year. You may you may meet your life partner. And so, but that led me to, okay, I finished my degree. We wanted to be together. So, okay, I'll move to the States because I had nothing planned. I didn't, you know. That that was the plan. I was gonna go do that. And that really, if you would have told me this when I was 21, 22, I think even a few years before, I would have declared you insane if you had said that I was gonna graduate and move across the world for a boy that was like not. You took American studies very literally. Yes. Yes, my professor thought it was really funny. Uh but that that really was kind of that's not I don't think it's a Capricorn thing to do, to move across the world for definitely move. No. No. But it did also show that I didn't really know what I wanted and I liked him a lot, so I was like, why not give it a shot? Um, but it did lead to, I think, eight years of random jobs, because I needed a job. He was still in college and we needed to earn some money to, you know, pay to rent. Let's talk about those jobs.

Kristin 14:40

Let's talk about your early career and the things that you found yourself doing. But first, if we set the scene, you met Jason in Minnesota. Yes, that's who I did. Is that where you started your career? Is that where you started working these what fell at the time?

Vera 14:56

So Jason originally he's from Portland, Oregon. Okay. So when I moved to the States after I got my American Studies degree, I moved to Portland. I was like, I didn't know where to start, so I started with the temp agency. I think in between there, I also tried to sell life insurance for like six months or so. Turns out that was not my passion. It was not true. Who knew? And I am it also really stressed me out that it was all commission-based, and that was not for me.

Kristin 15:28

No, that's not very specific life.

Vera 15:30

So I I'd like to forget about that part because I wasn't very good at it. I mean, I had fun doing it, but did I sell a lot of life insurance? No. Not enough to pay for the car that I had to get. I had to get a car to go be able to go sell this life insurance in like small towns just north of Portland. So I think after that, I definitely went to the temp agency and be like, okay.

Kristin 15:53

Help me get a job.

Vera 15:54

Yes. And as I ended up working for a window and door company for quite a while, didn't doing invoicing. I didn't quite know what an invoice was. I was like, what is this word? I learned quickly. Turns out I was pretty good at it. I worked at Banana Republic also at the same time. So I did windows and doors invoicing during the day and then Banana Republic at night. That's dangerous because of the discount. Yeah, that was good though. That's very nice. I got some good stuff. So yeah, I I did that for two years while Jason was finishing his degree. And I was like, okay, I'm not sure I went to school for any of this, but here I am in the States. Plus, I was still, I mean, I was 24. So then you're like, okay, it will come. The career will come. I think my parents were probably a bit worried. That's not what they had envisioned for me. They're like, you didn't go to college to go do that.

Kristin 16:45

This is where the everything counts spirit comes into play. Like when you're younger and you're like, I don't know what this means, but like one day I'll look back on it and it will mean something.

Vera 16:53

Yeah, I did learn things from it. All these jobs helped me get other jobs. Yeah. So it in there in that sense, as I was thinking about all this before when I knew I got to be on the show.

Kristin 17:08

Um digging you're digging through the archives of your I I was like, yes.

Vera 17:12

I I mean, all these different jobs, even with the life insurance, I learned to step over this boundary of being shy and asking for things and doing something totally different. And I and I also learned that I don't want to be uh self-employed.

Kristin 17:27

I mean it's also valuable info. Yes. How and when and why did you move to New York City after your stint in Portland?

Vera 17:36

So from Portland, we ended up moving back to Minnesota for four years because uh Jason ended up getting a job there with the company that he'd been working for in retail. They have their main office there in Minnesota. Okay. And through luck and hard work, he won a contest at work selling X amount of shampoo, selling the most shampoo or something. This got him into a raffle for trip to New York. He won this national contest. So the two of us were flown to New York, and then we met the creative director of the company. And she happened to also be Dutch, so we had kind of a connection there. And he was finishing his marketing degree, and she's like, Oh, well, give me your your name, and then if something comes up, we can maybe, you know, help you put your name higher on the pile of resumes. And so that was his in to get a job at that main office in Minnesota. So that would there was a little bit of luck and a little bit of hard work, uh, but mostly luck, I think, uh, landed us to go back to Minnesota. So we were gonna go for two years. That was the plan. And then we won't move back to Europe. And that's I guess I should add, when I moved to Portland, it was gonna be for a year. He was gonna finish his degree and we were gonna move back to Europe. That was the whole plan. And now you're like years in. Yes, years in. It's like, okay. But then, yeah, so then we in Minnesota, uh, we were there for four years. I ended up working at the same company as Jason. And then we tried to get to Europe at that point, but it proved more difficult than, you know, it's it's it's hard applying from afar and where we were in our careers, we're still pretty junior. So then Jason's like, let's try New York. So after four years of Minnesota, we went to New York. And I was like, okay, well, at least we're going the right direction. We're moving. It's like as European as you're gonna get. Yes. And that's as we got there, I was like, oh, this is nice. This is kind of like Amsterdam, just a little bigger, but it it definitely felt, in a sense, like coming home. And then so we did live in New York for nine years, a long time, because it did feel like home.

Kristin 19:56

I think we moved to New York around the exact same time. Yes. And we met doing like an activist training group for a feminist organization. And so, yeah, let's talk about New York and how you like got up and running. Did you go to a temp agency? I did. That's what I did.

Vera 20:13

Uh, went to a temp agency, ended up working for an insurance company again, again, life insurance. There's a theme there. Um, but uh yeah, doing admin work. At that point, I wasn't 23 anymore. I was turning 30, and I was like, what am I doing? Where is this going? This is not a career, this is a random collection of jobs. So I think part of why I joined the activist group where we met was to do something that felt more meaningful, that contributed to society. What I learned from this group that the activism side isn't me. That's I'm not the one who stands on the barricades. I will organize the barricades for you and like make sure that everyone has a poster and all that, but I'm not the one leading the charge, I think. That's not my forte. During that time, I was like, okay, what do I want? And I found myself in bars, you know, out with people. I would always sing the phrases of European government and the European system and the social system and how that worked and how it would take care of people. Being here on the other side now and Dutch government now, I know it's not as great as I thought it was. But back then I was like, government is a thing that's good. It's helps you, it can support you, it should be there to support people. And having a good working government can really make a difference in someone's life. So then I was like, okay, maybe this is where I want to switch to. And then I found that without the degree, I applied to several different government jobs and I never got a call back. It was very disheartening. So then I was like, okay, what can I do? And then I went back to school. I was like, okay, apparently I need a degree. Or at least that's the conclusion. That's the lesson I took from it. And I went back and I got a master's in public administration to at least on paper have the skills to get into government. And it worked out. I ended up working for the New York City Department of Education.

Kristin 22:20

Yes.

Vera 22:20

Right after I graduated. Yes.

Kristin 22:22

I want to talk about your personal life at this time. Somewhere in here, you had a baby. So how was it navigating motherhood and then like, okay, what's my next step and how does it all work together?

Vera 22:35

So it it kind of like I decided to go back to school. It sort of coincided also with the moment that we were like, okay, we want a family in the next year or so. And then that happened more quickly. And we got lucky there. So that happened more quickly than we had anticipated. So after one semester of grad school, I decided to take a break from grad school because I I was pregnant and I was due in the middle of that semester. I was like, well, let's pause grad school for just at least a semester. And then I had a baby. I had a grad school and I still was working full-time. And then we were doing the math. And the math at that time was that my income would pretty much just go to daycare. And then there was grad school at the same time, and I really wanted to do that, a job I didn't care as much about. Um, then I made the decision to stop working. I became a stay-at-home mom slash grad student. To the horror of my own mother, she didn't quite understand. She feminists of the not the first hour, but she was always like, You have to make your own money, you have to work. Why are you staying at home? She felt uh I was a disgrace to the women's movement, I think. Whereas I'm watching much like to me, feminism is that you can make a choice, you choose what is right for you. Absolutely. Same. She did not see it that way. It turned out that that was a good combination. I liked being able to manage to care for my child, and while and luckily he was a good napper, so he would nap for three hours, and then I was typing papers and like getting things done. So that worked out really well. And then before grad school was over, I had a second baby. So both of them were born while I was in grad school. And then my my daughter was six months old. I graduated, and by nine months I went back to work at the Department of Ed. So in that sense, the plan worked. And that really to me feels like the beginning of my career.

Kristin 24:42

The other personal piece I wanted to hit on real fast is you moved to New York City, your partner had a path. Like he's always known he wanted to do what he what he does. Yeah. I had a similar It's very annoying. It's so annoying. My ex was the same way, and my current partner is also like just someone who knew what they wanted to do and was good at it. And it is so annoying to kind of live in that shadow of like, good for you. I don't have that. So happy for you.

Vera 25:13

Well, but I also I think I it was annoying to me, but it also sort of was an excuse. We just moved for his job. I used a little bit as a crutch, I think, as a uh as a distraction.

Kristin 25:26

I want to talk about one more thing before we move to the lightning round. And that is just okay, you did it, you found your path, you're in New York. How did you make the transition back to the Netherlands and then get settled into your jobs?

Vera 25:41

So I mentioned earlier we the original plan was that we would move back fairly quickly after Jason got his degree. That turned into in the end, I lived in the States for 15 years, where every year we were like, are we moving? Are we not? What are we doing? Hmm, no, we like our job, you like your job. You know, there was always a reason to not come back. And I was very certain I was never gonna have children in the States because the health care we have here. Sure. I was like, well, you know, it doesn't make any sense to have kids in the States if you can also have them in Europe. But time caught up with us, and so we have them anyway. But then once we had the children, I was like, okay, I do want them to speak Dutch, know Dutch culture, know my parents. And my parents would come visit, but it would only see maybe once, maybe twice a year. So then the clock really started ticking. We're like, okay, if I want these children to actually be Dutch, we need to go. So we gave up the apartment, quit our jobs, and then COVID happened at the same time. There we there was a moment where we were sitting in the apartment and the apartment was half empty because we already had shipped things on a container and it was March 2020, and we're like, okay, we can probably still get the apartment back. Like, do we really want to do this? Then we decided that we were just gonna go do it. We did do a detour via Portland because if we stayed in the US longer, we could do our jobs remotely, the jobs we still had. So we worked a bit longer from Jason's mom's basement, where she also she had a backyard, which was a big, big deal because we were living in a high rise with you know no outdoor space. Jason ended up working longer from Portland. I moved ahead with the kids, so he earned more money while living with his mom, and I got the kids settled in the downlands. My brother was very generous. We were able to live with him as a starting point. And then I registered with the temp agency and got my foot in the door with uh the tax agency, which it was a good start. It was like I got to perk my Dutch back up because I I had a few job interviews. So we're like, oh, you speak Dutch so well. And I'm like, I'm a name, I'm a native speaker, but okay. They're like, Where are you from? I was like, Well, I'm from the south. They're like, no, there's something else. I was like, I lived in the States, and they're like, Oh, that's what we hear. There it is. Yes, so it was a oh man. It was a bit embarrassing in the beginning. I mean, I hadn't never worked in a Dutch office because I had left so young. So, like, you know, you know how there's all this language and the way you say certain things in a in a business setting. I didn't know any of that in Dutch, so I had to adjust a bit.

Kristin 28:33

I didn't even think about that. You like you now have a Dutch career. It's like different.

Vera 28:37

Yes. So I mean, s some of the culture is a little different, and uh, there's an adjustment. And I remember I very clearly remember the adjustment I had when I went from Dutch culture to the US. The hello, how are you? The chit-chat that you have to do. Yeah. The Dutch don't do us.

Kristin 28:56

It honestly sounds like a vacation.

Vera 28:59

Sounds nice. Well, so I had to get used to all that in the States. But then it also turns out that coming home that was an adjustment as well. The culture is a bit different. I I found people to be rude and very short. I was like, we could say this more nicely.

Kristin 29:14

That's so funny.

Vera 29:16

Yeah. So and I also because I'd been away for 15 years, the the politics had changed. The country had moved to the right quite a bit more. It was an adjustment. Well, and working at the tax agency, I realized it was good for me. And then it gave me time to look for something else and to realize that I wanted to go back into education. So I applied with the agency and that worked out. And so I've been there ever since. Yay!

Kristin 29:44

This is like such a good full circle moment. You did it.

Vera 29:48

I did. Yeah, it's nice to say that now. As as you're in it and you're looking for a job, it's it's flexible. You're like, why didn't we uproot our family? And was this a good plan?

Kristin 29:58

And but now it's been a few years, right? And Jason has a job, y'all feel settled.

Vera 30:04

Yeah, we do. We were able to buy a house, which is something we could have never done, I think in New York or in like in the States. We've been able to benefit from just the way Dutch society is set up. Like my kids go to school by themselves, they walk there, they do things on their own, whereas I think in New York they couldn't have done that yet. I'm happy to see them becoming these independent little people.

Kristin 30:32

Let's do the lightning round. These are the same questions that every guest gets. Don't overthink it to the best of your ability. First question. What was your very first job and what did it teach you about work?

Vera 30:47

Well, my very first like job with an employer was doing dishes at a local cafe near my parents' house. And I only ended up getting that job because my brother used to do that job. And then he went away to college. And they're like, maybe your sister can take it over. Of course I did, because why not? It was one of those first moments as a child where you're becoming your own person. Because before you are in school and you're a student, but this is like they saw me as an adult. I was 15, I think. But they, you know, they gave me responsibilities and tasks, and I I was my own person there. I was Vera who was like in charge of the dishes, and then later I got to help make desserts and prep salads and do all this kitchen work. And it's supposed I remember that it I found it very cool and that I was my own person there. I was like an adult, even though I really wasn't, but that's how they were treating me. Uh and I think that's, you know, I'm definitely gonna encourage my children to get a job like that. Doesn't matter where they can go work at the grocery store nearby, or but have that experience where you are responsible for for something and you have to do your task, and then another adult that's not your parent or your family member has this working relationship with you.

Kristin 32:06

I think it's so important. I love that. What is an embarrassing work story?

Vera 32:11

Well, I pondered about so I listened to a lot of your episodes beforehand. And I I I think Lauren had the one where they called someone the wrong name, yes. Yeah, the wrong name. Or they use their own name. Like I definitely have done that where I've like I was like, you know, when you have the the introduction round and you're just waiting until it's your turn, and then I just blurred out that I worked for a different company. I just like really bad. But I think the the most embarrassing one, or the one I felt really bad about, is that for the department of ed in New York, there was a conference in Chicago we were going to go to. I was so excited, and but I managed to miss the flight by like three minutes. Oh no. It was horrible. And it's I think I left on time, but it was at LaGuardia and it was with the bus, and the bus was stuck in traffic, and there was no way. It was I felt so embarrassed.

Kristin 33:14

It was that is like that's that counts as embarrassing for sure.

Vera 33:18

Did you get your flight? Yes, but not until the evening. So I ended up taking my suitcase to the office. I went to work, and then I flew out from JFK that evening. I was like, I'm not going back to LaGuardia. They were they were still doing the construction back there. It was a hot mess. It was bad back then. Yes, so I missed the first day of the conference. It was just a conference, but I know, but it's it was like my f I think it may have been my first business trip. It might have been my only business trip that I've flown anywhere for work, because that's not in my line of work, not a thing. So it was quite terrible. It's one of those things that I have dreams about, you know, when you're it's so haunting. Yes. Enough about that one.

Kristin 34:05

Well, excellent answer. What is your socially acceptable work vice? So, like the thing that you do to bring comfort during your work day.

Vera 34:15

Well, besides eating too much chocolate, there's one. But I also get a lot of comfort from colleagues. It takes off the edge and it takes off the pressure a bit.

Kristin 34:32

But uh, you call it a vice? I mean, yeah, I I mean I don't know about vice, but like it counts because it's a time-honored tradition that gets people through the day for sure.

Vera 34:42

Yeah. I also I I don't know how what your situation is, but for us, we work partly f remote and partly in the office. And I really like I value my office days just to connect with people.

Kristin 34:54

I'm fully remote, and it is why we're here doing this podcast. I miss talking to people. I love being in person. So yes, I love a hybrid. The next question is what's something about your job that sounds impressive, but isn't actually that glamorous?

Vera 35:14

Well, I personally always thought that working for the national government that always sounded really impressive to me. So that was kind of like that was my goal. I wanted to go work. I was like a national level. Yes, great. And then I I get there, and it turns out it's really they're just people. And they're also sometimes just doing things in Excel by hand. So I don't know if my job does sound glamorous.

Kristin 35:39

To me, it did. I agree. I think that when I hear like, oh, national government, that's amazing. And so, yes, that is I totally your answer.

Vera 35:48

It is, I mean, it is amazing at the scale of things that you get to work on. In a way, it it happens sometimes in the same way as someone who works at municipality level. Some things happen by hand or not as efficiently or as smart as you would expect.

Kristin 36:05

Okay. Last lightning round question is do you fix typos in casual communication? Of course you fix typos.

Vera 36:13

I like that you're like, I don't even understand the question. No. I have yet to hear anyone on your show say it otherwise. Except for you, who I think.

Kristin 36:23

I mean, yeah, I well, it's a mixed bag. Now that there's an edit function on texting, I will edit it, but it used to be the Wild West. Um, but I appreciate that you're like, I do not understand the question. Of course. I fixed my point.

Vera 36:37

Yes.

Kristin 36:38

Thank you for humoring my. This is like this one question is gonna be like a research study down the road.

Vera 36:43

I'm gonna do like a what does it say about someone if you if you if you think it's okay to type.

Kristin 36:49

Exactly. Like I want to know what the factors are. I'm gonna do that. The actual last question is what would your advice be to someone who feels off track right now?

Vera 37:00

Well, I guess it's a combination of what other guests have already said is that it's okay to be off track. Because there is there is no on track per se. Everyone is winging it, everyone is just trying to figure it out. And I think what I've been doing a lot is that I always look to other people and like they haven't figured out and they know what they're doing, and they are on their way, and there is a they have a plan and they're working the plan. And I I find as we then learn more about people behind the curtain, they're winging it just as much as you are, and they may have gotten lucky or might look glamorous. So I think don't be harsh on yourself. You're not off track, you aren't just doing just fine, and you'll get there. I also don't want to diminish it because feeling off track can be very stressful. So I don't want to discount the feeling of feeling off track. It's a valid feeling. I guess I almost want to comfort people that it will be okay.

Kristin 37:55

I really I like that. And you're right. I think we don't want to be like, there's no track, don't even worry about it.

Vera 38:02

Because I get because I've worried. I've worried about being off track. Yeah. I wasn't on the track, I wasn't going anywhere when I was in that moment. But, you know, 20 years later, I do have the insight. There it there is some wisdom that comes with experience that you can see that, as you say, all these little parts, they count, they add up to something, and you will get somewhere. And you can work 40 years in a million different jobs and have a very meaningful and and fulfilled life, even if you don't have a career that fits neatly in a box. And I think for a long time I was looking for that career. I needed to have that career, and now I have it, so it's maybe now I can be like, it doesn't matter.

Kristin 38:48

It's a great place to end. I'm so grateful that you joined me. I'm so excited that I got to see you and talk to you. Thank you for joining. Thank you for having me. As I was listening to this episode, I was thinking about how I met Vera in this sort of activist training program. And how I would, I would, I would say both of us just really didn't know what that meant at the time when we joined. And I really like her reflection on like she doesn't want to be the person on the front lines coming up with the chance and sort of organizing in that way, but she's happy to make sure everyone has a sign, everyone has what they need, everyone is organized. And when I really think about that and I think about where she's sort of landed now in her career, it's really interesting because I love the emphasis on her work, the work that her team does, closing the gap between policy and real life. I feel like when she talks about her work, there is, of course, this passion, but that passion is coming from the fact that her work gets to touch real lives. And a lot of times government work is sort of missing that piece where you're like doing high-level policy work or you're thinking high-level about policy work, and you're not as connected to the ground, to the lives that are being impacted. I think she has a really interesting handle on the position that she sits in and why that's so valuable. But also let's think about it compared to sort of this activism piece where she's truly doing the implementation work, the paperwork to make sure people have what they need. Just like at a protest, when we make sure everyone is in formation and they have their signs and they know what to do. It's so kind of beautiful, these two end caps of this story of where she is now ensuring that folks have what they need to live good lives and to access all of the resources that are available, but oftentimes so hard to navigate. The last thing, of course, that I want to reflect on is how she really didn't have a path or she didn't feel like she had a path. As I said in the episode, we really grew up together in this way. We were in our 20s and we both felt like we didn't necessarily have paths. We were doing cool stuff and we had amazing opportunities, but it just at the time it didn't make sense to me and it didn't make sense to her. You know, why what why are we doing the work that we're doing? What does it mean? How does it add up? What's it gonna look like one day? Um, and I just really love the fact that she had so much confidence in that. She showed up, she took jobs, she said yes. And then down the road, she had someone supporting her that not everyone gets, not everyone gets that opportunity to have a partner or a spouse who's like, yes, let's figure this out and make your dreams come true next. But I think that's really key. I don't think that we all have to have our lives figured out on the same timeline. But once you're there and you have it figured out, making that space and having the people that you love help you make that space is really beautiful. Anyway, thank you as always for joining us. This is the part of the show where I'm always out of words because I cannot believe that you're listening. I'm so honored. Please leave us a review. Come find us on LinkedIn or Instagram or Substack. Apparently, that's a thing I do. And we'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. I'll see you next time.