Zolal: We can and we must.

In this season three premiere, Kristin sits down with Iranian human rights activist Zolal (she/her), whose life has been shaped by a decades-long fight for freedom, democracy, and women's rights in Iran.

Zolal shares the story of growing up in a family of activists, losing her father to political violence as a child, and dedicating more than two decades of her own life to the Iranian resistance movement. Along the way, she reflects on resilience, women's leadership, and what it means to stay committed to a future you cannot yet see.

This conversation is not a comprehensive history of Iran, but it is a powerful reminder of how our experiences shape our purpose. It's a story about hope, courage, and the people who keep showing up, even when the path forward is uncertain.

How to get in touch:

• Zolal Habibi on LinkedIn
• NCRI

Transcript

Kristin 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's episode is episode one of season three. I cannot believe we are starting a third season. And this season is full of, I would say, surprises. I'm excited to try some different formats. I am excited to share some interviews that I've done with folks that I don't know. A lot of my interviews, as you know, are with friends and family and friends of friends. And there are a lot of new stories to be told this season. Before we get started, I wanted to give a little context for today's episode. Most weeks on this show, we talk about careers, detours, and the strange ways that people find purpose. And today's conversation definitely still fits that theme, but it does take us somewhere a little bit different. My guest, Zalal, is an Iranian human rights activist who has spent more than two decades advocating for democracy, women's rights, and freedom in Iran. This conversation today is not intended to be, you know, any kind of comprehensive history of Iran or any kind of definitive political analysis. This is certainly not my area of expertise. And so I really wanted Zalal to tell her story in the most organic way possible. And so I want you to listen with such curiosity. I think one of the spirits of this show is about telling each other's stories, giving a platform to all of our experiences. This show is about understanding how people become who they are. And Zalal's story is one that I think will stay with you. So today's guest is Zalal. She her. She's an Iranian human rights activist and a prominent voice for justice, democracy, and women's rights in Iran. She serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, where she advocates globally for a secular democratic republic in Iran. With over two decades of dedicated activism, she's become a fierce advocate on behalf of the voiceless inside Iran, regularly appearing in international forums, human rights conferences, and live broadcasts across major media platforms. Welcome, Zalal. I'd love to start with sort of an overview of what it is that you currently do.

Zolal 2:37

Hello, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you for having me. I am an activist with the Iranian Resistance. And yeah, I've dedicated over two decades of my life to the cause of freedom for Iran. So yeah, that would be the general being a member of the Iranian Resistance and activist for human rights and women's rights in Iran.

Kristin 2:57

If you're meeting a stranger and you're telling them about your work, how do they react? What kind of questions do they ask you?

Zolal 3:02

For the most part, people first find it interesting, and then when they ask like more in the details, they're just mostly astonished that there are actually people who are willing to put in so much time and effort and sacrifice so much in their lives for in cause because it's not a normal day job, as you would understand. The reality is that it's not an easy task day in, day out, without one day of stopping. This movement has been fighting for freedom in Iran and against the tyrannical rule in Iran for decades. One aspect of looking at it is the National Council of Resistance of Iran, which is was formed actually in a few months. It'll be 45 years of continuous fighting against the mullahs. But when you look at the greater picture, like for instance, the MEK has been fighting for 60 years against two tyrannical rules, both the mullahs and the Shah, and only with the aspirations of being able to bring about a secular democratic republic in Iran and to be able to actually have people's sovereignty in our country where for once people could benefit from the same privileges or the same it's not really a privilege. They should be God-given rights, but the same rights that we take for granted a lot of times, uh, which unfortunately the people of Iran have been denied systematically for a century, really. And so that is the first take many have. I think most people don't have uh that much of an understanding. I mean, we don't expect them to, but they don't have much of an understanding of you know what it is that this fight is about, and they're not aware of the extent of um this fight and how it's been continuing. And it's a very complex issue because unfortunately, Iran is a country that there are a lot of foreign interests who play a role one way or another uh in regards to Iran. And to understand this complex situation, you need to have a somewhat of an understanding of it. But I think more and more people are becoming acquainted with it, especially like in the last few years, um, you see more people showing both concern and solidarity and support for the people of Iran and their fight for freedom.

Kristin 5:10

That's incredible. I can imagine you're a bit of a showstopper when you tell people about your work. I'm sure that they have lots of questions and you get to share the incredible work that you're doing. I'd like to talk about our backgrounds, our history, how we grew up. And I'd love to hear any reflections you have on your family, your astrology if you do that kind of thing. Any reflections from when you were young and how you landed on this particular path?

Zolal 5:33

Yeah, well, um, my parents actually came to the US before the revolution as students. And so I am from the generation that was born after the 1979 revolution. I've never actually had the chance to visit Iran, but it has always been part and parcel of my life. I don't think a day has gone by that I have not thought about the plight of the Iranian people and what they're going through. And the reality is that I came face to face with the realities of Iran from a very early age. My father, he was a prominent writer and a human rights activist. So I got introduced to human rights violations, I think at the age of four or five. I knew about these issues and I had actually met people who were victims of torture, who had been able to escape Iran at the time, and they were actually staying with us in our house for a few weeks while they were testifying at the US Congress and at the United Nations in New York. And um, so I had that opportunity to actually meet these people face to face and hear their stories, and they became my heroes in life, you know, as a child looking up to them and understanding like the complexities of the things that they have been through and the fact that, you know, such things actually exist in the world. So that I guess changed my perspective on a lot of things just growing up. But I always thought that that was in Iran and we're here and we're in safety and security, and you know, um, it's devastating what people have to suffer in there, but we're here. But then in 1988, my dad was killed by the Iranian regime. And I was only seven at the time, and so that really was a hard blow for me. But on the other hand, I knew that I wasn't alone in this experience because that summer over 30,000 political prisoners were executed by the regime within five, six weeks. Before anyone knew what was happening, it was already too late. And thousands of families throughout Iran were devastated. They had lost loved ones. And in the mix of everything, when I was able to put things into perspective, I realized that I was still one of the lucky ones because I didn't have to l live under that tyrannical rule. And the fact that, you know, I knew so many others who had a birth and I did. I knew people who had lost like both their f parents or like their entire families were wiped out. Or I knew people who had been arrested and taken to prison with their parents as children at the age of like four, five, three. And they had to live under those harsh conditions in the prisons of the regime in the 1980s, and they were the only ones who were walking around these prisons without blindfolds. And so they're the only actual true witnesses of those atrocities. I had a friend who she had been arrested with both her parents, and she was at the time five. And one of the methods of torture the regime would use was they would make her watch her father be tortured. Um, unfortunately, her father ended up dying under torture, and she knew that. And even though when you spoke to her during the day, she would be like, I have no recollections of prison or what happened back then. But in reality, she had just blocked it out of her memory. But like, for instance, in the middle of the night, she would have these nightmares about it, and she would wake up like screaming or with like a fever, um, because she still remembered all those scenes. And seeing that, I I understood that, you know, I was very lucky not to have to live under those circumstances. But it also brought a sense of responsibility for me, even though, as I said, I was just a child. But I felt like I know this, what am I gonna do with it? And how am I going to move forward? For one thing, from the beginning, I remember when I found out I think I cried like three hours straight after my father had died. Then I just had needed to get a grip of myself because my little brother, who was only three at the time, was coming home from daycare. And if he saw me crying, he would know something's wrong. So I decided to, you know, just pull myself together. And I remember telling myself that crying is not going to solve any issues at the end of the day. And in the mindset of a seven-year-old, I thought, you know, this is only going to make Khomeini happy, seeing you cry. That that was the end goal for the regime, to see you cry and to see you sad and in sorrow. So I decided that day as a form of like resistance for a child, I decided not to cry from that moment on, to not give the regime that satisfaction. And so I didn't cry for nearly a decade, despite all the different obstacles I came face to face with during those times, which were pretty harsh things, but I was able to overcome them. And I think that is something that we see today, even in Iran. I don't know if you've been seeing the videos on and images that came out of Iran after the uprising in January, where grieving families are holding ceremonies for their loved ones who've been killed, their children, their parents, whatnot, who have been killed. And they are turning those ceremonies to celebration of the life of the person who was killed, and actually honoring the fact that they sacrificed their lives for freedom in Iran. They haven't died in vain in using that despite all the pain and the grief, turning that into resolve to fight against the regime and to continue the path. And I think that resilience is what the regime fears the most. Because I think when you have a nation that is bound on taking its destiny into its own hands, that is what the regime fears the most.

Kristin 11:14

That was beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing it. I want to know a little bit about you mentioned being seven and not crying for 10 years, and that's that's your whole childhood. When you started to become an adult, how did you start to find your power or how did you start to get involved in activism?

Zolal 11:31

I still consider myself to be a part of a very lucky generation. I grew up alongside this resistance, and um, because of that, I had amazing role models in my life. Foremost, I think I saw Mrs. Brown Jabi, Mary Majvi, she is the president-elect of the Iranian resistance, and she has been my role model since I could remember practically, but especially in my teens, seeing, you know, this brave woman who is leading the movement against a misogynist regime like the Mullahs. And her motto is we can and we must. And that was what I grew up with. I think the first time I heard her say that I was 12. And at that time, she was announcing the formation of the all-female leadership council of the MEK. So since 1993, this movement has been fully led by capable, progressive women who have broken all glass ceilings and um have been able to accomplish things that are unprecedented in history, but they have been able to do it together and they have been able to lead the path in Iran. A lot of people, I think, were in awe in 2022 when they saw, you know, the brave women of Iran on the forefronts and the fight against the regime after the death of Masa Amini. But for us, the reality was that wasn't a new phenomenon. This isn't something that brews overnight. This is the result of, you know, generations or decades of resistance and resilience that we have seen in the women of Iran from the first days after the revolution, where they realized that they were being marginalized, even though they played a major role in the uprisings and in the revolution. But from the onset, they were the ones who stood in face of the regime. And they have never given in to this regime. I think that's very important to note. The people of Iran have never given in to the status quo, even though it's been 47 years now that this regime has been in power, but they have never given in and they have never given up and they continue to resist and stand in face of it. And the fact that the main Iranian opposition movement is led by women, capable women who have proven their commitments, but also how their capabilities in all realms, um, be it political, be it military, every aspect of it. And I think that is uh what drives people inside of Iran and gives them that power to be able to continue to resist in face of the brutalities of the regime. And I grew up having those role models and having them, you know, in arm's length. So I could see them day to day and see, you know, how they've been able to overcome obstacles and how they have been committed to this cause. So that really helped me to be able to strive for more and strive to be the best version of myself that I could be, and to always know that there's so much potential that we don't use. M Mrs. Rajver believes in the formula E equals MC2, and she always says we're only using 2% of our actual energy. And I think one of the things that she has been able to do is through the empowerment of women and through her viewpoints, she has been able to create a path towards emancipation of both women and men through women's leadership and having women empowered in the whole structure of their resistance, but also breaking all those gender roles and biases that exist in society. And she has been able to propel whole generations of both women and men to be able to strive and to accomplish so much more than they thought would be ever possible.

Kristin 15:07

Wow. I mean, there's like so many thoughts inside of all of this. But I have a couple questions. One, most societies these days, you know, they don't love to see a woman in charge. And I think that there is like a real, you know, what we see from the outside of Iran is like how women have been so, so systemically stifled. Describe a little bit how it looks, you know, to see women being so respected and so powerful and able to accomplish so much, even though what we see is often a little bit the opposite.

Zolal 15:39

Well, I think it's really important to differentiate between the regime and the people, but also within the resistance. It's very different than maybe throughout society. I think that our minds are set in a specific way, and that's how society raises us, and that that is what we learn in society that women aren't capable to do certain things or they can't enter certain realms or whatnot. But those are really not true. None of it is true. The reality is that we're all human beings, we've all been created the same, and we have that potential. But unfortunately, because of the prominence of male domination in society throughout centuries has formed these chains really, and it's very important to break through them if you actually want to persevere. And in our movement, the reality is that because we are face to face with a misogynist regime, the Iranian resistance realized very early on, since actually 1984, actually in 1984, when being able to analyze everything that this movement was going through, because they used to do like an annual analytic of what is going on, where we stand, what we need to do. And that's when they realized that even though we are at the forefront of fighting a misogynist regime and we believe in full emancipation of men and women and equality and whatnot, and we are a progressive movement. And so once they realize that we actually still have these presumptions in our heads or in our minds, because that's how we've been raised as a society. So once they realize that, they decided to revolt against it. And they said, you know, we're not going to be able to bring true democracy to the people of Iran until we rid ourselves of any such thoughts or mindsets or whatnot. So that has been a whole process in the resistance, and they have overcome that and they have been able to withstand the test of time and to be able to persevere. And yes, from day one, it wasn't easy. It's not only an issue of an issue of, like, for instance, men accepting women in leadership, but it's also the women accepting themselves as leaders too. They didn't have the self-esteem that's needed, but to break those barriers and shine through, Sarajabi has taken each person one by one and given them that assurance that you can do it. Just lean on everyone else and you can strive and you could push forward and you could break these shackles. And that has been a whole process. I think when our generation joined the movement, we followed in their footsteps. So the path was paved already. But the reality is that they went through a lot of obstacles, the previous generation, to be able to pave that way for us, and then us to pave it for the future generations that have, you know, the next generations that have joined this movement. And I think it's a very interesting story. And I hope that one day we will have the time to be able to share it with the world because I think there's so much that can be learned from it. We really can help push society forward, or this can be a major leap forward for the world. Right now we are in the month of March, so it's women's month, and actually this year marks the 30th anniversary of the Beijing Conference on the Status of Women. Back then, 30 years ago, Hillary Clinton gave a speech there as First Lady that women's rights are human rights. Um at that time, I was, I think, 14 or so when I heard it, 14, 15. And I remember my first thought was like, of course, women's rights are human rights. You know, how naive to say that. But at that time in the international community, that was like a huge momentum that it created. Everyone was like, that is like the millennial goal to make women's rights human rights. And that is when I realized that because I had been raised side by side with this resistance, I didn't have those misperceptions on women, and I didn't have those glass ceilings that everyone else did because I had seen the resilience of these, you know, amazing women. And I knew that they weren't an exception to the rule. It was systematic that I was seeing this. And so that is when I realized how lucky I am to grow up with such role models and to be able to have that in front of me. Over the years, so you know, the Iranian regime has executed over 120,000 people for supporting this resistance movement.

Kristin 20:06

Yeah.

Zolal 20:07

40,000 of which have been women. And these women have been really at the forefront when it comes to resisting in face of torture and everything that the regime puts them through because they were dealing with double the suppression and just the medieval methods that the regime used to try to break them. And they proved to the regime that they're unbreakable. And I think that when you have that understanding, when you grow up knowing these stories, that really changes your perspective on a lot of things in life. The fact that I knew of young girls who were 13 years old when they were executed, but still, even at that young age, they didn't give in under torture or under the circumstances that they were placed under, or so many teenage girls who had been executed by the regime, especially in the early 1980s, or like pregnant women who were placed under torture and executed, but they still stood tall till the last second before their execution. And they really actually brought the torturers and the executioners to their knees because no matter what they did, they weren't able to break them, and that's why they had them executed. And so when you grow up knowing that, when you know it's not just a general term or like something that you hear, you could put a name to it, you could put a face to it, you know their stories, you know their families and everything, it really just changes your perspective on a lot of things in life. And I think that is what also drove me to follow the path that I did. Growing up, I was always told you need to concentrate on your studies and become something. So once we free Iran, you guys can rebuild Iran. So that was like the aim, that was the goal. But um, when I was 18, I started thinking because well, I had reached the age of 18, the regime was not overthrown yet. Something that ever since I was like four years old, my dad would tell me like in six. Months we'll be in Iran, or next year in a free Iran. And it hadn't happened yet. And so at that point, the student uprisings broke out in Iran. And this was the first time in over a decade that we're seeing a nationwide like protest or uprising form in Iran. The first time after the 1988 massacre. And this time it was our generation coming to the scene. So the generation that was born after the revolution. People who had seen nothing but this regime, but they were the ones who were coming to the scene now. And it was also the first time that something like this was being televised because it was the start of cable television and, you know, CNN and whatnot back then. And I remember seeing these scenes, watching them on television, and I couldn't bear the thought that I'm watching this from afar instead of being a part of it. And at that moment, I decided to rethink the whole roadmap that I had ahead of me. I had just graduated from high school. I was on my way to college. I had gotten a full scholarship to go and study medicine. That was like the path. And at that moment, I was like, well, what are you going to do? Are you going to be one of those who goes and frees Iran? So all of these experts and intellectuals, be it doctors, whatever, can go and serve their own country. Because at that time I had read, like when I was 17 in a magazine that there were 20,000 Iranian doctors in the US alone. So I was like, are you going to be one of those 20,000? Or are you going to be one of those who frees Iran? So those 20,000 could actually go and serve their own people. And that is when I decided to join the Iranian resistance. It has been 26 years now that I have been a member of this resistance. To be honest, the day I joined, I didn't think it would be 26 years. I was thinking maybe like two to seven years, something like that. That's how long it'll take for the regime to be overthrown. But the reality is that we are up against one of the most brutal dictatorships the world has ever seen. And the reality is that we have now finally reached the final phase, maybe, of this regime. Because the reality is if you take out the Iranian resistance from this equation, this regime would have ruled for about like 500 years. And there wouldn't be a force that would be able to withstand this test and to be able to continue standing in front of the base of the Mullahs. But the Iranian resistance has actually been able to bring down the regime to this point that they have become so weak. And right now they're on the verge of falling apart. And we are speaking about not only the demise of Khomene, but also the regime in its entirety. And I think that is something that has been in the making. It's not a result of, you know, foreign intervention or whatever. People of Iran have made the regime reach the point that it is now. And that is the result of, you know, this dedication and this sacrifice that the people of Iran have made over these years.

Kristin 24:51

I guess I want to ask two final questions. One, what do you want people to know? What do you want the international community to know in this moment? What's a message you'd like to leave listeners with?

Zolal 25:01

I think that what isn't really important is to stand by the people of Iran in these critical times and understand why it is that the people of Iran feel that the need to take their destiny into their own hands and why they do not want foreign intervention in their country. Because unfortunately, a true democracy is never going to be installed in a country. It has to come from the people themselves. And that has been our experience. And you have to also understand the history in Iran, like recently, you know, modern history of Iran. In the last hundred years, Reza Khan was installed by the British. And then he was taken out once he wasn't serving their purposes anymore. And then his son was brought in. And then the one democratic movement or government that we ever had in Iran was when Dr. Mossadev was the prime minister of Iran. But that was very short-lived. It was about like two years. And then there was a coup d'etat by the CIN in MI6 and took him out because he had actually nationalized Iran's oil, and that was not to their benefit at the time. And unfortunately, the Shah was reinstated and made even stronger than before. We saw the growth of the Slavak, Iran became a one-party rule, and it led to the 1979 revolution where people revolted against the Shah. But unfortunately, again, their revolution was hijacked at that time by Khomeini. And at the time, you know, Western powers, it was the Cold War era. They were afraid of what the progressive movements that had led the fight against the Shah, if they came into power, what that would mean in the Cold War era. So they put their trust into Khomeini because he was a fundamentalist and they thought, well, he's going to oppose communism anyway. So he is the man for us. And unfortunately, the people of Iran have been paying that price for 47 years now. And right now, at this point, the people of Iran are the ones who rose and came to the streets, and they have been doing that for. I mean, if you look in the last decade, this is the fourth major uprisings that people of Iran had. What they are asking for, and they they have been asking for is please stop backing this regime directly or indirectly and allow us to take our destiny into our own hands. We have the capability and that potential to do so. We have reached a point that there is a foreign war now in Iran. Khomenei has been eliminated, which, of course, people of Iran are happy for the elimination of Khomenei. But at the end of the day, the Iranian people wanted to be able to actually hold him accountable for the crimes that he perpetrated. But what's important right now at this point is to allow the people of Iran to bring about that change. Change cannot be installed. We do not want another chalabi version happening in Iran. The people of Iran want to be able to bring about that change themselves. And they have paid the price gravely. I mean, the fact that thousands and thousands came to the streets and they were killed brutally, but they still resisted, they still stood. I think that is what's really important, the perseverance of the Iranian people. And during these times, it's really important to echo that voice and to realize that the people of Iran want to take their destiny into their own hands. And it is time to finally stand by the Iranian people and to allow them that possibility to create the change that they want to see in their society. And I think that it's very sad that in Iran, where the first human rights declaration of the world comes from, the people of Iran have been denied their most basic human rights for decades. And it is time now to be able to stand by their side and allow them to create that change themselves.

Kristin 28:40

That is so well said and excellent place to leave so that listeners can truly process this. And I hope that listeners hear something, learn something, and can stand in solidarity. And with that, can you tell us where we can find you, follow you, and or follow the resistance and news sources that will tell us what's really happening?

Zolal 29:01

I think you could definitely check out ncr-iran.org to learn more about the Iranian resistance and follow the latest news. There's also Miamrajavi for change.com. And if you would like to reach out to me, I am on X, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Um, if you search my name, it should pop up. Please feel free to reach out. If you want to become active, you could reach out to oiac.org in the US. They have chapters across 40 states. And also if you're in Canada, Europe, Australia, wherever you may be, you could reach out to ironfreedom.org and they could put you in contact with local activists. And um, yeah, just please try to echo the voice of the Iranian people. Mrs. Radja, I mean she's active on social media platforms, so you could also follow her there and become more acquainted with her viewpoints and what she stands for and what she is striving for.

Kristin 30:02

Thank you. You are a beautiful storyteller. You're doing incredible work. I'm so glad that you took the time to join us. Thank you, thank you.

Zolal 30:09

You're very welcome. I was a pleasure to be with you.

Kristin 30:18

As I was listening to the interview and thinking about what I wanted to say and how to reflect on and honor this particular story, two things kind of kept coming up for me. One is hope and one is representation. I love how she talked about growing up surrounded by women leaders. These were women who were not trying to prove that they belonged. They were women who saw what they needed to do and they simply led. They were women who made decisions, carried movements, and they looked at impossible circumstances and really just said, we can and we must. And what an incredible thing to grow up around and then get to become. When I think about hope, I get a little stumped simply because we're talking about decades here of resistance, of movements, and of the necessity of hope. You know, you can't do that work without hope. It would become impossible to carry out if you didn't have that. When I think about her story, the way that she has seen this since childhood and she has carried it forward. And there have been some really tough experiences and tough setbacks, and she keeps showing up. So we talk about hope as a feeling, but I was kind of thinking about Zolal as sort of hope as a practice, which is something that I also think about in my own life when I, you know, I work so close to other kinds of movements. All are centered on liberation and freedom. All are long arcs, really long journeys, and all require hope as a practice because you truly can't do this work without it. So I really feel like this is a story of women imagining a different future and refusing to stop working towards it. It really inspires me and resonates with me. I think about the women in my own life and the women that are probably in your life who they themselves represent some kind of movement. They represent a community. Oftentimes they represent family and life and careers, and they're not necessarily meaning to do that all the time. A lot of times we're showing up and we're doing the work that has to be done. But if we think about showing up and knowing that people are watching and knowing that there is an imperative to continue and an imperative to hold on to that hope, I'm incredibly inspired. I hope that this story resonated with you as much as it did with me. I want to again welcome you back to season three. Come back next week. We'll have another interview for you. As always, please find us wherever. Find us on LinkedIn, find us on Instagram, find us on our website, all of which is Everything Counts Pod. I have a substack that is Kristen. Everything counts Kristen, I believe, is my substack. And um, and that's sort of just my home for my thoughts that are about life and work and sort of just a again at home for the things that I'm thinking about and working through, and frankly, a little behind the scenes of of my own, you know, thinking. And it is so incredibly helpful when you come find us on whatever podcast platform you're listening to and leave us a review. It really helps people find our show. It also makes me smile. I read them all, they mean so much beyond words. So thank you for being with us. Welcome to season three. I will see you so soon. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. See you next time.