Kathleen: Challenge yourself.

In this episode, Kathleen (she/her) reflects on a career full of challenges she wasn't entirely sure she wanted, and somehow excelled at anyway. From becoming a nurse despite initially deciding she didn't want to be one, to earning dual master's degrees, moving across the country, leading healthcare teams, and completing a doctorate while raising a family, she has developed a remarkable habit of doing hard things.

We talk about patient care, public health, leadership, burnout, and the realities of working in healthcare. Along the way, Kathleen shares thoughtful insights about growth, resilience, and why you don't always need certainty before taking the next step.

Sometimes the path becomes clear because you were willing to try.

Transcript

Kristin 0:03

Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello, and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is another one of my New York City OG friends. I'm actually so thrilled to dive into our conversation. We haven't caught up in a while. And wow, has her career taken some turns and progressed over the years. I'm thrilled. Kathleen, she her, is a nurse practitioner, healthcare leader, and lifelong learner based in Philadelphia. After beginning her career as an emergency room nurse in Texas, she moved to New York City to earn dual master's degrees in nursing and public health from NYU and now serves as a center medical director, leading primary care clinics while continuing to care for patients. She's currently completing her Doctor of Nursing practice in executive leadership at the University of Pennsylvania, where she continues to explore how leadership, public health, and patient care intersect. Welcome, Kathleen.

Kathleen 1:12

Thank you so much. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

Kristin 1:15

I am too. I'm so I'm beyond thrilled. And my first question is a question I actually genuinely have for you, which is what are you doing these days?

Kathleen 1:23

I am working as a nurse practitioner in Philly, which I love. I mostly take care of adults and geriatrics. In addition to that, or I guess on top of that, I'm a center medical director. So I work in like primary care and I lead two different like primary care clinics as the center medical director and then see patients kind of on the side, but yeah.

Kristin 1:48

Okay, this is also a question that I genuinely have. And I always wondered about my own practitioners. How does it work? How do you split your time? I have no idea.

Kathleen 1:57

I mean, honestly, I do have to have very intentional time set aside and to be like very conscious about splitting my schedule because otherwise it all blends together and I won't get anything accomplished. So Google Calendar is my best friend. And then honestly, I don't know what I did before AI because I have or all the, you know, all the tips and tricks and electronic things we have online now to help us stay on track. Uh I use like my tasks, my lists, everything. So it's physically a little difficult to like split my time between, you know, two different centers and making sure I'm there for all the team members and then my patients and everything.

Kristin 2:38

So not easily, but so you're literally splitting your time between seeing patients, doing leadership things, leading people. And then I imagine that there's paperwork and stuff for both of those things that have to happen.

Kathleen 2:55

Yeah. So much paperwork.

Kristin 2:57

Do you take are you able to like take the paperwork home? Do you do that in an office? Never.

Kathleen 3:01

Never that is one of my cardinal rules for staying alive mentally. Is I am so strict with myself that I do not do work at home. I mean, I used to. I will say at the beginning of my career, I was not great at that. Even when I was a nurse, because I started off, you know, a nurse in the emergency room for many years. And just I think when I was a nurse, it's more about bringing the mental load home. And it took me a long time to figure out how not to do that, you know, and bring all that anxiety and angst home with me and not letting that affect my personal life. But as a nurse practitioner, it took me a while also to figure out I don't have to do everything today. And I tell my like providers who I'm in charge of as well, I was like, this is my goal for you because you will burn out so quickly without doing that. Yeah.

Kristin 3:50

I mean, you're right that like tomorrow's gonna come. And you could work a thousand percent today, tomorrow, and the next day, but then what is left over down the road?

Kathleen 4:00

And there will always be something to do. You will never finish. And that's part of like work in general, but definitely an aspect of primary care. There is always something to do. Stuff will never stop. You don't get to like zero out your work, you know. You just have to make peace with that.

Kristin 4:16

Do you have like set days where you're in office seeing patients?

Kathleen 4:20

Yeah. Like Monday, Wednesday, Fridays are my more busy days seeing patients. And then I do have time set aside to meet with people and do like one-on-one conversations. Thursdays, sometimes I see patients, but I have time set aside for meetings and other things I need to do, like administrative work. So yeah.

Kristin 4:38

I'm crazy impressed. And every time I've been like when I go see my own primary care physician, I'm amazed at the chaos of the office and then the fact that I know that she has several locations that she travels between. And I have no idea how they're doing it all, but I'm grateful that I get to be seen. I'm like, thank you for being here. It's wild. So um, that's incredible. Okay, here's where we're gonna go back in time. This is I love to go back to the foundation of our lives and think about where we're from, our birth order, our family, our culture, astrology, if that speaks to you, and think about what of those things may have like put you on the path that you're on.

Kathleen 5:18

Well, I'm the youngest of three. And it surely influenced my life. I'm also the only girl. So I was definitely like daddy's little girl. And I definitely felt, you know, like pampered, the little princess. I was very always very different than my brothers, I guess.

Kristin 5:36

Right.

Kathleen 5:36

I wasn't spoiled by any means or anything like that. But, you know, I always wondered what it would be like to grow up with sisters. Um, but very grateful now that I never had sisters because I love being the only girl. I think also being the youngest definitely influenced how I was raised, how I grew up, and like how that turned me into who I am today. You know, my parents had an easy first child, they always say. My middle brother was a little bit of like typical middle child, push the boundaries. And then I really was, I I think I was a pretty good kid. I was like the church-going kid who, you know, the worst thing I did was like stay out late, but it was because I was with my church friends at church. But because of that, they also were very lenient with like rules and boundaries. And, you know, I never stepped outside of them. So they never had any pressure to like put those on me, you know. But I always had this like sense of, you know, I needed to do well and make them proud. And, you know, I don't know how they installed that sense of responsibility in me, but they did a good job.

Kristin 6:38

Yeah. There's that. And then was there like anything in there around caretaking? What do you think inspired you to do healthcare?

Kathleen 6:45

Oh my gosh. Honestly, I think I kind of got stuck in it. Not in a bad way, but so senior year of high school, I loved my anatomy class. I took a class, I went to like an all-girls school, and I took a class at the all-boys school next door that was an anatomy class, and I was not doing well in it. I and I I was very used to just like not really having to study, just kind of coasting through school. And I actually had to really study hard for that class. And my teacher pushed me. And then I ended up doing super well. And I got such a boost of confidence that I did well in that class that I was like, maybe I should look at, you know, science type classes in college. And my mom, when she sent us to college, she said, math or science. You know, choose math or science. You'll always have a job. You won't have a problem. And she was the first in her generation to go to college. She put herself through college. So it was really important. Like education was always very important to my mom and my dad too. But she said math or science. So I went, got, you know, a scholarship to school, went to school, and I was like, let me look at the nursing path and maybe I don't know, like chemistry. That's science. And I looked at the chemistry class and I was like, that's too much science. That's real. So I took my intro to nursing course as a freshman in college. Part of that course, we had to go shadow a nurse at the local hospital. So I was in St. Louis. We went to the hospital. I shadowed a nurse and it was on like an orthopedics floor, fresh patients out of surgery. And I got out of that shadowing experience. I called my dad and I said, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I know I don't want to be a nurse.

Kristin 8:19

Hilarious.

Kathleen 8:20

Yeah, I was like, that was terrible. And then I just never dropped out of that.

Kristin 8:26

You were like, I don't want this, but I'm just gonna keep going.

Kathleen 8:29

Keep going. Like I took all the like prerequisites, I, you know, continued to the next semester. I think it still had science courses that I was interested in. And then it got to a point where I was like, well, let me keep doing this and and see kind of what it's about. So, you know, then I made it to clinicals and the last like couple of years of school and I loved it.

Kristin 8:47

So yeah, I imagine that there's also like a people element to it that you like, you know, when you get to clinicals and you're in front of patients, maybe that's hard to turn away from.

Kathleen 8:57

I think now, definitely. When I was, I call it a baby nurse. I was a baby nurse, you know, and taking care of people, I was just scared to death because you know, you you've learned everything that they teach you, and you get out of school and you still know nothing or you feel like you know nothing. Yet you have all this responsibility. Yeah. And, you know, it was a terrifying prospect. I think I was very good at talking to people and listening. I was really, really good at listening, you know, and I had to develop those like critical thinking skills that you need. So after a while, yes, being around people, talking to people, listening to people is like what drives me now. And like I could never leave patient care. Like I love taking care of people, but it took a while to get there. I was just terrified, like my first few years out of practice out of school.

Kristin 9:48

That makes sense because you know, I think about myself and when I was early in my career and how long it took me to feel like, okay, I know what I'm talking about. Right. How ultimately low stakes that was. Like I was like not responsible for someone's well-being.

Kathleen 10:03

Yeah.

Kristin 10:03

That must I'm I've actually never really thought about that way. That must be such a scary trip.

Kathleen 10:08

Yeah. And my first job right out of school was in like a downtown emergency room. Really sick patients. Uh, we were not a trauma center, but we certainly got a lot of trauma, a lot of like gunshot wounds and different things because we were downtown. And so we would have to, you know, stabilize people, lifelite them out to a trauma center or, you know, do what we could within our capabilities to treat, no matter what rolled in the door.

Kristin 10:35

Wow. Was that first job in Texas? Yes. Okay. Yes. At what point did you decide not only am I gonna move to New York City, but I'm gonna pursue two master's degrees?

Kathleen 10:47

I think fairly early on. So I was at that first hospital for about a year. And then I transferred to the same hospital system, but a little bit closer to my parents who live in a like more rural town. And and you know, I didn't grow up in a rural area. I grew up inner city Houston, you know, loved it. I'm a city girl through and through. But living in that smaller town, I was like, wait, is this it? Like, am I am I done? So now people are like nurses in my position are getting married, settling down, having kids. I was like, is this it? Do I do I stop now? I was like, I don't think I'm ready. And my dad really pushed me. He wanted me to, you know, continue pursuing my career. I really didn't know if I wanted to be a nurse practitioner. This is feeling like a theme now of thinking about it. I didn't know if I wanted the responsibility, right? And it's just like scary to think about having more responsibility and and making tough decisions for people's health and their well-being. But I said, I was like, you know what, let me just like apply to one school. I'll apply to one school and then I probably won't get in. Let's see what happens. And I applied to NYU and I was like, I really I know I really love public health. I love working with populations that need to be served. And so I applied to their dual degree program. So your master's of public health and master's in nursing, and I got in and I was like, oh, now I have to decide. I was like, I guess I'm gonna go.

Kristin 12:13

Wow, it got real.

Kathleen 12:14

Yeah, yeah. And I had to make that decision quickly. Like within a few months, I was like, I made a decision, paid my deposit, moved to New York, which felt, you know, not as scary as I think it would have, because I had a family in New York. My brothers were there. I actually moved in with my uncles uh when I initially moved to New York, which I was very grateful for. But I had a little bit of a softer landing when I got there.

Kristin 12:39

Yeah, but so that's scary. And you're not only moving, but you're like taking on something kind of huge.

Kathleen 12:44

Yeah, yeah. And then I had to find a job when I moved there. So I was like, okay, I'm going and I'm gonna be in school, but I still need to, you know, earn an income. So I was very grateful for the job I found. I ended up having a great experience working at that hospital. And that was that was a tough couple of years. I don't think I could have done that again because I was working nights and then going to school during the day and doing clinicals during the day and working night weekends.

Kristin 13:09

I don't know how I did it, but I really I mean, I don't know how you were doing it, and it kind of I guess it prepared you for now where you have so so many hats to wear in your day. But yeah, it was a that's that was so much, and you were so young. I mean, I guess that's where the energy came from, but that's how I got it. That's how I did it. So wild. And yet somehow you did have time to socialize because we were in our 20s and we were so much fun. We were having a lot of fun. We still managed to have fun. I mean, I was a lot less busy than you, but like you were out, you were out in those streets with us.

Kathleen 13:46

Yeah, that was so much fun. We met, did we met at kickball, right? We did, we met playing kickball. Oh my gosh, and bonded immediately with the fact that we were both from Texas.

Kristin 13:54

Yeah, and you had literally like you had been there two weeks. You just you were fresh off the plane from Texas.

Kathleen 14:00

I was ready, ready to meet people, ready to get out.

Kristin 14:03

It was really special. Um, but I remember I mean, I just I really remember to this day, I think about like all that you had taken on and like two master's degrees at the same time. And you were working as a nurse. It was a lot.

Kathleen 14:17

Yeah, that was fun though. That was a good time in our lives.

Kristin 14:20

It really was. I miss like wandering around, you know, Union Square and shopping. And yeah, that was those were good times.

Kathleen 14:28

Yeah, somehow, see, we found time to do all the we really did.

Kristin 14:32

You made it look effortless.

Kathleen 14:33

Yes. Well, and now I'm actually wrapping up my doctorate degree at University of Pennsylvania right now.

Kristin 14:40

You're in school right now? Yeah, yeah. Wait, sorry, what? Okay, so in addition to all the things that you said you currently do, you are also in school. And tell me what you're studying and like what that looks like after you're done.

Kathleen 14:54

So I am finishing my doctorate of nursing practice, which is called a DNP. And I have a focus in executive leadership through the University of Pennsylvania. So I've essentially been doing that for the past couple years. My goal in that is that, you know, I found this leadership space while also being able to like take care of patients that I really love. And I really love kind of guiding a team and reaching our goals together, you know, or constantly having something else drive what I'm doing day to day. So I wanted to explore that a little bit more. I've really learned a lot, I think, through this program and really have appreciated that it has opened my eyes to just different possibilities of future work and different avenues. So I'm I'm really excited. I don't know what the future holds for my career, but you know, I could stay, I love my current job, I could stay there forever. But I think getting this doctorate has helped me look at the work I do with a different lens, which I really appreciate. Really taking more of a like systematic approach to looking at things. And, you know, I found that I really love like patient safety and quality work. So, you know, figuring out how I can implement that into my day-to-day, but also seeing like, I don't know if this is part of my future, but maybe it is, you know, we'll figure it out. Oh my God. That's crazy. Yes. I found out, let's see, I decided I was gonna do school, like paid my down payment, found out I was pregnant all within like two months of each other. And so you've been at And so then I was like, well, guess this is gonna happen.

Kristin 16:30

I'm worried for you when you're done with school. Like, what are you gonna do for yourself?

Kathleen 16:33

Lots of people said that last year and the year before.

Kristin 16:36

Like it's only gonna get somehow easier.

Kathleen 16:39

I'm excited to take a little break.

Kristin 16:40

I am like a little mental break, a little until you figure out what is the next thing to add, the next challenge. Yes.

Kathleen 16:48

I think that's something also I'm always kind of striving for is like I do something, I kind of get my hands on it, and then I'm like, okay, I'm not complacent, but I'm like, okay, but what else? What's next? You know? So I don't know.

Kristin 17:00

We'll see.

Kathleen 17:01

I'm excited to take a little bit of a break though.

Kristin 17:03

I mean, good. I think that will be well deserved. And then I look forward to seeing whatever is next next. Amazing. Yeah. I, you know, as you were finishing your master's degrees, like this is where you made a couple moves. This is a where like the story drops off for me as far as like knowing so closely what you're up to. So I would love to hear about the transition from like school into being a nurse practitioner and the years that followed your master's.

Kathleen 17:30

Well, let's see. When I graduated, I was definitely putting my feelers out there looking for jobs, obviously. And I had met my now husband, Ned, and we decided to move to Seattle, just kind of on a whim. I got a couple interviews out there and found a job that was willing to take me as a brand new nurse practitioner, which was really great. So we moved out there. That was such an interesting experience, I will say. I really appreciate the Seattle region. It was just very difficult to move so far away from family and friends. That was like one of the more difficult times in my life, I think. Even though it was such a great experience, I had the most supportive job and I was so grateful. But it was so difficult, like personally, to move that far away and to just you can't pick up the phone and call your mom or call your friend because they're, you know, there's a three-hour time difference. Yeah. Um, so that aspect was very difficult. We stayed there for a couple of years, and then I was like, this is not working for me. And we decided to move back, and I'm very happy we're back on the East Coast now. Yes, East Coast ride or die.

Kristin 18:39

East Coast girly, same same. We came back to the East Coast. Now you're working in Philadelphia. Yes. Yes. Tell me about that.

Kathleen 18:48

Philly is such a unique place. I love Philly. It's like you get the the really, really sick people. It's interesting because the other places I worked, except for Seattle, I was working more in a hospital emergency medicine. And so Philly is the main place where I've worked doing primary care and taking care of people outside of the hospital. So I can't say I have a lot of experience. I did work in Seattle, but it was which a much different population, much more affluent population. You know, people had resources. So working in Philly has definitely challenged me, like professionally as a nurse practitioner, trying to figure out how to work around, you know, different restrictions and and barriers that my patients have. You know, if someone can't afford their medicine, so well, what do we need to do? You know, I don't, this is literally the only medicine you can take to help for this. You know, figuring out how to solve those barriers and and overcoming that or having people have to choose between whether they buy food or buy food for their kids or take the medicine, go to their follow-up appointment because they don't have money for a copay is really opened my eyes to, you know, the I think the things that we learn in school about social determinants of health. But seeing those live in action in my day-to-day too, because, you know, I've known a lot of my patients for for years. And seeing what they have to go through and the decisions they have to make is really, really difficult, but I think also pushes me and makes me a better nurse practitioner to try and kind of meet patients where they're at. But I've definitely seen a lot of like unfortunate, crazy things happen to people. Not as much as I did working in the ER, obviously.

Kristin 20:30

Sure.

Kathleen 20:32

Um, but kind of it's also beautiful because I get to see kind of the sequela of that. You know, someone has such a terrible moment in their life and, you know, they're in the hospital in the emergency room. And yes, they're quote unquote stabilized and they come home. But it's my privilege to get to take care of them after the fact and bring them out of that. Cause sometimes it takes people years to recover from a traumatic episode of them being sick or something happening to them and being in the hospital for, you know, sometimes weeks on end. So it really is a privilege, but it's also difficult trying to manage patients and coordinate their care in these populations where they have to make difficult decisions and they're faced with so many barriers. But I love being there for them. I've been at my current clinic, I think four and a half, five years now. And then I was working before I moved to my current clinic and organization, I was working in the same neighborhood. So I was at that job, I think two or three years through COVID. Oh, that was terrible. Yeah. Very grateful I was not working in the hospitals then. But you know, we certainly had our own challenges in the outpatient setting, as did everyone during COVID.

Kristin 21:43

But I mean, yeah, being a being in healthcare during that time probably I literally can't imagine.

Kathleen 21:49

Yeah, yeah. That was stressful. It's like if they can go through that, you can go through anything though. It's true. You're like now, you're ready for life.

Kristin 21:56

Also, like COVID, COVID, yes, and also maybe some. The more systemic things that you see in your daily work feel related to public health. So you have this like dual master's degree. Do you feel like that passion for public health definitely gets an outlet in the work that you're doing?

Kathleen 22:13

Absolutely. It's nice to be able to, you know, see the impact that I make every day. And I don't have a typical public health job where I'm creating programs and initiatives that are on a broader scale, but I am able to influence those types of things at my clinics and at my organization, which is nice. And I think what's really great, especially in my leadership role, is I get to take my critical thinking lens as a clinician and apply that to some of the more systemic stuff that we do that has a more public health lens, right? I'm very blessed to have a social worker that I work with and we have behavioral health. We have a lot of resources for patients, which is great. But it's also nice because I can say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing from a clinical standpoint, and get their input too, you know, and we can apply kind of all those lenses to different problems, but then also to the things we're doing day to day and think how that affects like all our patients, you know, and kind of take a different approach to how we're doing things for like our little micro clinic and you know what we're doing for all our patients there.

Kristin 23:30

And it's just a reminder that you can't fix everything for everyone, but you have your clinic and you can look at it holistically for your patients, for the people that come through your doors. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That's really, really cool. Okay, let's pivot to the lightning round. What was the very first job you ever had and what did it teach you about work?

Kathleen 23:52

So technically, the very first job I ever had was working at like uniform store for schools. Cool. Um, I only worked there for like a couple months, so I don't really remember much of it. But after that, what I consider my first real job was working at a Greek restaurant. And yeah, I was a hostess and then I was a server, and I absolutely loved that job. I think it definitely taught me a lot about how to work with other people. Um, because that was my very first time really being exposed to people of different ages, different backgrounds, different life experiences, and having to work with them and interact with them every day. In addition to the actual work, I learned a lot. You know, I learned how to multitask. And I think being a waitress really sets you up well to be a nurse, especially an emergency room nurse. So I definitely gained a lot of those skills, but really like working with different people, you know, and just like interacting with different people every day.

Kristin 24:52

I think it's so important. It's so underrated, like having those kinds of jobs. What is the best or worst piece of advice you've ever received?

Kathleen 25:01

My current boss, who's amazing, she's so good at giving little nuggets of wisdom. One of the best advice pieces that she ever gave me was when I am speaking to a crowd or to multiple people or giving a presentation. She told me, you know, because I would get so nervous and just not know what to say or not know how to answer questions. And she said, just stop and think about what you're gonna say before you say it. She's like, it may sound like you are pausing or you want to think about, I don't know, something else. But she said, just stop and slow down. Think about it and then say it. It will come out naturally. It will delete all the ums and pauses or, you know, different little things that you may say in between your words, but you will sound so much more professional when speaking in that environment. And I think it's helped me a lot, especially when I'm like giving presentations. I have to give a lot of presentations to the entire clinic and the entire team all the time. So it's helped me become very comfortable. Worst piece of advice. This is someone also who who I admire. But one time when I was very new to my current job, this person said to me, There are some people who get it and some people who don't, who I understand that sentiment and I understand that that feeling. Not sure if I a hundred percent align with it because it kind of feels like sometimes that gives you permission to give up on people and and not coach and put in the work to work people through things and train them to where you need them to be. So while I appreciate that, and there are certainly instances where that applies, I'm not sure I 100% agree with it all the time.

Kristin 26:43

I actually love that you called that out and that that's your take on it because you're right. That's a really good lens to have.

Kathleen 26:51

Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. Like it's okay if people don't get it right away or aren't the quickest or the sharpest or the most responsive, but it's okay. They're coming from different experiences, different backgrounds, and we can try and get them where we need to be.

Kristin 27:04

What is your most embarrassing work story?

Kathleen 27:07

So when I was interviewing for my job in Seattle, I flew out and the team there kind of hosted me for a day. So it was like an all-day interview. I went in that morning, I was shadowing people. They were interviewing me with like 10 different people. It was very intense, a very long day. But they were very gracious, very nice. I loved it there. They hosted and provided lunch, of course. And so we're all sitting at a big table. It was me and about nine or 10 physicians, a physician assistant, you know, some administrative people. And we're just sitting lunch. And of course, I'm with topic of conversation, and they're, you know, just asking me casual questions. It's lunch, it's not a big deal. But I was so flustered and I was on the spot and I had been on the spot for like four or five hours by that point. And I was trying to talk and answer questions and eat my food, and I choked on the food. And you're like, okay, great, you choke, not a big deal. But I choked and I had what's called a laryngeosm. And so it's where you're, you know, you just like continue choking and you can't get an air. And it was so embarrassing. And I'm like, no, I'm fine, I'm okay. And my face is turning red. Everyone stopped looking at me. Like, just yes, just stop looking at me. And it lasted, the effects of that lasted for like, it felt like 10, 20 minutes. It was so embarrassing. And I was like, I'm never gonna get this job. Thankfully, they hired me. Maybe they felt sorry for me, but we're in it now. Embarrassing. And I was like, and you know, you're dressed in like to the nines, you're in an interview. And oh my gosh. And then I was just kind of constantly thinking about everything I could have answered better, or someone said this, I, you know, could have done this better, but then I choked and none of that mattered. Wow. Oh my gosh, that's a good one.

Kristin 28:47

What is your socially acceptable work vice?

Kathleen 28:51

Eating at your desk. I think that's very uh touchy in healthcare, especially in the hospital. It's definitely a big no-no. But when you're when you have so many jobs to do. Yes, yes. I think a lot of people also push, especially like leaders, push, like, don't eat your dust, take your time off, you know, take your lunch, make that work for your mental health. I love that. And I definitely want people to take their break if they need it. I think there's also something comforting and something I love about multitasking and being able to like eat my lunch, have my time, but then also get back to work and not be stressed out because I know I have, you know, so many things waiting for me while I'm trying to take a break.

Kristin 29:33

I'm also a desk eater. I get it. You gotta just keep it rolling. So I respect it. What's something about your job that sounds impressive but isn't actually that glamorous?

Kathleen 29:44

Being in charge of people. Especially as a nurse practitioner, I am lucky to be able to guide other providers and be a resource, but it's a lot of hard work and it is a lot of digging through data, making sure I understand people's data and what drives that, and a lot of just like nitty-gritty stuff, working with different personalities. A lot of that sounds very glamorous, but it's a lot of hard work, a lot of nitty-gritty work.

Kristin 30:10

I couldn't agree more. It's like, wow, you're someone's boss. Uh yes, and it is so hard.

Kathleen 30:17

Well, just having to like manage other people and figure out what's their personality, how does my personality react to their personality and vice versa? And making sure you're saying things in the right way that gets the response you want, but also helps lead that person and coach them so that they can be better. So it's a lot of thinking about like the soulful things that I never thought I would have to.

Kristin 30:40

Yeah. Right. It's it's so much. And one of the things I say a lot is I often forget that my words have weight. As a leader, your words have so much weight. And so you can no longer like make a flippant joke or like people are listening to everything you're saying. Yes. And like taking it to heart. That's heavy.

Kathleen 30:57

When you take that jump from like, okay, I'm just like one of the people or one of the guys to oh, now you're in charge of them and your relationship changes. And that takes a while to get used to.

Kristin 31:08

It like stops mattering if everyone's your friend. I don't know, it's just complicated. And I'm totally with you. I want everyone to like me, and also being a boss is hard. Do you fix typos in casual communication?

Kathleen 31:20

Sometimes. If I'm speech to texting, I could care less what Siri thinks I typed. And like I will send it off, and who knows what it says, even though it reads it back to me. I'm like, they'll get the gist of it.

Kristin 31:32

Yeah.

Kathleen 31:34

But honestly, if I am texting something and there's too many errors or, you know, it takes too long to type, I just sometimes won't even send it.

Kristin 31:43

You just like delete and move on. Yes. It's not worth it.

Kathleen 31:45

I'll tell them in person.

Kristin 31:47

You didn't need to hear from me anyway.

Kathleen 31:48

It's not it's too hard. So if it's short and sweet, sure.

Kristin 31:52

What would your advice be to someone who feels off track right now?

Kathleen 31:56

Just do whatever makes you happy and challenges you. Because it doesn't really matter what we're doing, as long as like you're feeling challenged and happy. Because that could be different. I mean, that's different for everyone in every stage of their lives too. There's this viewpoint or that lens that some people take of like, well, that's not making me happy. I have to quit and move to the next thing. But I think something important is like making sure you're challenging yourself. Because you're not gonna be happy every second of the day. But like in general, yes, I wasn't always happy being a nurse or in school or doing the hard grunt work, but I was challenging myself. And there are moments of happiness and joy in doing what I do, but it might be frustrating day to day and I might really be stressed out. But that's part of that mixture of challenging myself and being happy and doing what I love and taking care of people.

Kristin 32:45

Yeah, that makes sense. That's a that's really good advice and a perfect place to end this. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. This was so fun. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. If there's one thing that stands out to me about Kathleen's journey, it's the word challenge, not in any kind of negative way. Now that I say that, that sounds weird. But talk about someone who did not ever shy away from a challenge and someone who sort of like felt really comfortable, not always knowing for sure what the next step was, but taking it anyway. I think that we are often looking for the signs that it's perfect. This is what we should do. We should definitely become a nurse or definitely move across the country. And most of the time in life, we don't know that we don't have any amount of certainty for anything. And I actually really love how much she talks about those moments where she didn't know for sure or her heart wasn't a hundred percent in it or ready, but she did it anyway. She took the step and then she took it all the way over the finish line every single time. I mean, this person got two master's degrees at the same time while working and is now finishing a PhD while having two kids and also working. Anyway, she's such a study in taking a leap, believing in yourself, doing the hard thing, and truly just never letting yourself get bored. It must be why we are friends. Anyway, I just really I want us all to take away that like a little bit of comfort in the discomfort, a little bit of comfort in not always knowing that the thing is the thing, but you're gonna try it anyway because why not? I love it. Anyway, as always, thank you for listening. I love that you're here. Come find us, come say hi. We are on Instagram and LinkedIn at everything counts pod. And our website is everythingcountspod.com. And as I've said before, I have a substack. And of course, I can never remember if it's everything counts Kristen. Pretty sure that's the one. But it is a home for all of my thoughts, both sort of of my life, of the podcast, of work, of leadership. I would call it the home for my brain and the best place to get a little bit of behind the scenes. So thank you for being here. Please leave us a review. See you next time. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. I'll see you next time.