Everything Counts
A podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Host Kristin Gardner talks with guests about the twists, pivots, and tiny choices that shape our lives. With humor, feminism, and honesty, Everything Counts (but nothing is real) reminds us that even when nothing makes sense, everything we do counts.
Everything Counts
Amy: Go outside.
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In this episode, Kristin speaks with entrepreneur, publicist, and author Amy Summers (she/her) about building a career through curiosity rather than certainty. From getting fired and unexpectedly launching her own business to experimenting with new technology long before it was mainstream, Amy shares why meaningful careers are often built one small experiment at a time. And why sometimes the best next step is simply to unplug, go outside, and make space for what's next.
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Welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real, a podcast about careers, detours, and the absurdity of work. Here we explore the twists, the pivots, and the tiny choices that shape our work lives with humor, feminism, and honesty. I'm your host, Kristen. Let's get into it. Hello, and welcome to Everything Counts But Nothing Is Real. Today's guest is Amy. She, her, is an entrepreneur, speaker, and the author of the recently released book, 10 Mentorship Touch Points to Empower Your Team and Accelerate Your Career, a practical guide designed for Gen Z and millennial professionals, emerging managers, and entrepreneurs who want to lead with integrity and create healthier, more connected workplaces. Welcome, Amy.
AmyThank you. Thanks for having me on.
KristinOh, so excited to have you. I would love for you to tell us what do you tell people at a party? What do you tell them that you do?
AmyOh, this is a great question. I struggled with this very early on in my career because it just seems like nobody understands what a publicist is. Like if I said I was a publicist, they would say, Oh, you're in publishing. And I would be like, No, I'm not in publishing. So I so what I came up with, my my quick little what do you do? I get people on the Today Show, and that seems to get everyone's attention. And it got my parents' endorsement and their friends' endorsement when I was young in my career. So I thought it was just so much easier just to tell people I got people on TV and not explain the whole publicist thing. That I mean, that's brilliant, actually.
KristinUm and it gets people's attention. It does. Can you tell us a bit more? Go go into depth about what your work really looks like.
AmyUgh, the work of a publicist. Well, you have to really be, um, you really have to be someone who likes to serve others because that is what you are doing. You are advocating for others and helping them get their message out to the world, whether that's about the latest, greatest product, a new innovation, maybe it's about a nonprofit or something that somebody's really personally passionate about. You could represent so many different types of clients, I think. But um, to be a good publicist, you really have to be in the business of serving others. There's aspects of it that are really fun and rewarding, and there's other aspects of it that are really exhausting and um can be frustrating too. So a publicist tend to take a lot of heat from people in all directions. Um, so you have to have a thick skin for sure. And I always tell people, even if they don't want to be a publicist, if they come to work with me or intern with me, they will learn all the life skills they need to do whatever they want to do in the world because uh being a publicist is not easy. You have to be a good communicator and you have to um not give up. You have to always look at the glasses half full and not be swayed by uh journalists that shoot you down immediately, um which they often do. And you also have to really cater to clients and make them feel important, special all the time, but also set good boundaries with them as well so they don't run you over.
KristinThat is truly, truly a challenge, I'm sure. Um, and it also makes me think of so many jobs that require like this innate humanity. You have to like really understand how to treat folks the way they're expecting to be treated and then still get everything done. And I think that's incredible. I mean, you have a book. Congratulations. Thank you. Um you have a book, a podcast, a microcast. Do you treat these projects as a publicity project? How do you market yourself?
AmyWell, I I mean I will say the history of all these projects, they they definitely have intertwined in themselves, but I was bound and determined to never write a book, um, which is why I originally started the microcast back in 2018. I decided when um Alexa was getting really into the flash briefings, if you remember that. And um microcasts is something that is a short form podcast, so it's anything 10 minutes or less. And I saw that as a new tech trend coming up that, you know, everyone was doing podcasts, but not a lot of people were doing these microcasts. So I decided to try something new. I'm always looking, it wasn't necessarily to promote myself, but I'm always looking for what's going to be the next trend in communication. And I kind of just wanted to stay ahead of the curve and being one of the first PR people in that space to share my knowledge. I wanted to see how powerful it was. And I also thought, you know what, I really don't need to write a book. I don't need that kind of credibility behind me. I can have a microcast. And so I was, and I still do, put out a microcast every single day. It's just a quick communication tip and um advice that I've given to people that can help them in many areas of their life, whether it's just to motivate them or in their relationships or closing a deal or networking. I had all these verticals that I would give different advice in. And they're just quick. They're mine are under three minutes and it's just me. And um, it's gone really well. I have a huge following with the microcast. And um, then during my 20th anniversary of pitch publicity, I was really reflecting on my business and how I started it and and all the behind the scenes that people really didn't know on how I I ran my company and developed talent and worked with teams. And that's when the the book idea came back on and landed on my heart. And I kind of resisted it. But I I felt like, okay, I got a lot of credibility with the microcasts and I got on, you know, people asked me to come speak and I was on stages and and all of that. But I just felt like the book was necessary at this point in my career to really give an in-depth teaching on how to run a business. Because I've also had a lot of young uh professionals ask me, how do you start your own business? How do you get going? And so I thought, well, you know, I started my business at age 27. I learned a lot of things just, you know, from the school of hard knocks of just doing it. And I thought, you know, if I could put this in a book and really capture everything, then it would be such a great guide for somebody that wanted to get started and maybe, you know, become more successful than I would ever dream of becoming because I would give them, you know, basically my roadmap. And so once I got the book idea, I started working on my book proposal. And I had a really good book coach that told me, you need a podcast. I'm like, no, I don't need a podcast. I was like, I don't need one more thing. She's like, no, no, you need a podcast. And her rationale was because uh Rochelle Fredson was my book coach. She's like, no, you need a podcast, because all authors have podcasts. And I'm in my head thinking, well, that's a really not a good reason to start a podcast. But um, but you know, I took her advice and so I've had Pitch Live with Amy Summers podcasts. We're going into the third season now, so this will be our third year. But I I started producing that podcast when I was actually working on the book. And what I thought to myself was, well, you know what, I'm gonna have to do some research anyway. I'm gonna have to interview a bunch of, you know, entrepreneurs and professionals. I'm also gonna have to go back and interview all my mentees, and I need to do all that anyway. So I'm just gonna do it on the podcast. So, really, the the podcast is closely aligned to the book because I tell a lot of stories of how I developed talent and the mentees that, you know, have um come along with me on this journey, which I call pitch stars in the book. And so the podcast, if you really like the stories in the book, you can get the full stories on the podcast. But the podcast really became my research to inform all the details in the book as well. And so, you know, yes, they all kind of go together, I would say. Um, and I'm happy how things come together. Sometimes you don't know how things are gonna come together until you just start doing things, which I think is the theme of your podcast. So now I'm happy to say in like that, it looks like it all goes together, but it was not planned that way. I was just, you know, trying to try out different technology. You know, I was trying to do some research. I was trying to write a book, and it all just wonderfully has come together now.
KristinIt's so brilliant. And you're right. I appreciate the point of the the theme of the podcast is, you know, we don't always plan for it to come together or know where it's going. Um, and so I appreciate you making the point of like, you could claim that this was always the plan, but it was a bit of a and I love that.
AmyThank you. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I think you just have to try things. Um, I remember when, you know, when I was looking for something new in technology to challenge me from a communications perspective, I interviewed a bunch of people in the tech space and they were like, don't do a podcast, do a microcast. That's gonna be the new hot thing. Of course, it never superseded podcasts, but you know, I tried it. I did the Alexa Flash briefing and I've, you know, figured it out. And I think it's important to always challenge yourself. And sometimes you just don't know where things are gonna go. But I will say that Microcast has provided me now a very strong international following, which is great because now I can, you know, I still put out my communication tips, but I can promote the book. I can promote my podcast on it as well. And I have a huge following because I jumped on something early. And so sometimes, especially when you're jumping on something early, you may not exactly know what you're doing or where it's gonna lead or if it's gonna succeed or go nowhere. But I always say, you know, give it a try because you just you never know what's gonna happen. Thank you. That's incredible.
KristinI want to back up a little bit. I love to explore our roots and understand where you may have come from in terms of I love to talk about astrology, siblings, family, just early life experiences that put you on this path.
AmyDo you have any reflections? Well, you're speaking to a Gemini, so I have a lot of ideas.
KristinOkay, that actually so much.
AmyIt can go either way with me. I have tons of ideas all the time. So I can't seem to ever um, you know, be satisfied with, okay, now we're done with this. I launched the book last week and it's been a big project. And then I don't know, for a second this weekend I was like, okay, now what do I need to do? I'm feeling anxious again. So I think that's just a Gemini in me. I need to constantly be doing something. And it's probably the reason why New York City is home for me because there's so much energy here. It just fits me where other people I think would move here and just get overwhelmed. Yeah, that's true.
KristinUm also a New Yorker, but also seeing lots of people come and go because it's too much. Yes. Um, any any reflections from like family or or you know, even where you might have grown up geographically?
AmySo I grew up in Florida and in a very small town. And um, I grew up during a time where, you know, I'm I'm a Gen Xer, so I grew up during a a sweet spot time where we didn't have social media and and all of those things that we have today that make life very easy to connect and accessible. So I grew up during a time when uh MTV was just coming into the forefront and you know, we actually had limits on watching the actual television. People probably are shaking their head now and go, television, what do we watch television? Um, which we don't even have anymore. I don't even have a T I haven't had a TV in my house for like 15 years. But um yeah, you know, I my my my mom and um dad and you know, of course, my mom's friends group, they were very uh protective of us Gen Xers growing up and uh wanted to make sure the most important thing was that we did not lose our creative minds. So for example, when MTV came about, of course, that's what we all wanted to watch because that was the cool new thing. But my mom and her friends group decided that this was a very bad idea because if we watched MTV, we would then know what the music was about. We would know what the storyline was about because they would tell us in the music video. And instead, it would be better if we could just use our imaginations to interpret the music how we wanted to interpret it. So I was not allowed to watch MTV for a creative reason. It's actually adorable. And then um I remember specifically, I mean, we had certain hours of the day that we could watch TV and it wasn't very long, like one hour a day, and the rest of the time you had to dream up other stuff to do. So I think that again, just because of the time that I was living in, and probably why a lot of Gen Xers are very creative people, is that um I I had to figure stuff out. So I had to, I have a younger brother, and um I often was charged with taking care of him all day while my parents were at work. So, you know, I mean, I even wrote an entire Boy Scout manual for him one summer and gave him like all these things to do to earn badges that I made up. So I mean, we were very, we were very creative. So we were always coming up with things and and I think that that just helps me and my creativity today is that I can first of all, I I know that I can always figure something out. And um also I I had so much practice being creative at a young age. I think that was actually very useful.
KristinThat, yes, the combo of those two things makes so much sense how you landed on this path. Um, and so I want to hear about the early days. I think a lot of us elder millennials uh think of publicity as, you know, I I truly I think of sex in the city. I think of Samantha. Um and I but I also know that it's quite a journey to sort of climb your way to the top. So I'd love to hear stories from your early days.
AmyYes, I'm so glad you brought up Sex in the City because I remember when that show first came on, I wasn't watching it, but I was, you know, running my business. It was in the early days of pitch publicity. And I remember a client being really frustrated with me because I don't know what he wanted, but he, you know, and I was like, Well, what am I not doing for you that you need? He's like, I thought you were gonna be like Samantha, you know, in Sex in the City and be a publicist like that. And I was like, oh my gosh, I need to start watching this show. Like, what is this guy talking about, my client? What does he mean? And then I watch it and I'm like, oh my gosh, like Samantha was like the most sexual on that show. I was like, I hope he's not talking about that. I mean, I think he was talking about having throwing parties for him or something, but that show definitely showed kind of the glamorous, you know, side of publicity. Um, I would say that for the most part, it's it's not always those glamour moments, although it can look like that on social media for sure, because that is part of our job to make make everything look fun and exciting. And but I think behind the scenes, it's you know, it's a lot of work. You have to help people communicate. And a lot of times, you know, their message is difficult to understand, even maybe to yourself. And so I what I like about publicity the most, I think, is just dissecting what people are so passionate about and helping them share that passion or tell their stories in a way that will be received as news or as a story that other people will be interested in. And I think that that is a fun challenge, but it's definitely a big communication skill to kind of be a scientist, if you will, on communications and figure out, you know, what's the real story here and and how do we present it in a way that people will receive it?
KristinYeah, the packaging is so important. Okay, I want to take us into our lightning round. And this lightning implies fast, but it is okay. We have time. We can take your time. I want to hear all your all your best stories. First question is what was the very first job you ever had and what did it teach you about work?
AmyWell, if we're not counting the very first job that most young girls have, which is babysitting, which I feel like I've done since I was 10. If we're not counting that, we're counting a job that I got a legit paycheck from somebody that wasn't my parent or my parents' friends. I was a dishwasher. I was a dishwasher at a retirement center. Wow. And um, that was not a fun job. And I think what I learned about being a dishwasher is that I had better go to college because I did not want to be stuck in a small town and not have a way out. Um, so probably a very good job for a high school student. Yeah. If you want to motivate them to go go get educated.
KristinYeah. Lots of perspective. What was the best or worst piece of advice you've ever received?
AmyI mean, this is gonna sound very unusual, but I think the best advice came from a lawyer, actually. And um, it was after I had gotten fired from my a peer agency I was working at. I talk about this in the book. I don't talk about the lawyer story, but I had, I mean, they kind of just promised a bunch of things. They they were gonna not fire me. They were gonna, I actually was leaving because I was not in agreement with some decisions they had made that I was not ethically aligned with. So I was leaving them. And they convinced me, my boss convinced me to stay on and that they were gonna give me a subrance. And I agreed to that. I was very young, of course. I took her at her word, and I didn't get her word very well because they just got everything that they needed from me and they kind of just in grand, you know, fashion kicked me to the curb, basically. I didn't get paid my last paycheck. I was very upset about this. Of course, I was making a whopping $26,000 a year, so I don't know why. I was so upset about it that I really was. And I went to um the most prestigious lawyer in that city um and uh told him everything that had happened to me. And he basically said, Yeah, I don't think that we should go after your employer. I think, you know, the best thing you can do since you didn't sign a non-compete with them is I think you should just start your own business. And of course I thought that was a horrible idea at the time. I'm like, I why would I want to do that? That does not sound fun at all. I want to go work for somebody and get a big paycheck and benefits and all that. He said, No, I think you should call your clients and tell them what happened to you, and I think you should start your business. So, best advice was to not go after my former employer. I think that that would have taken me down a very negative rabbit hole and probably it wouldn't have netted me much in the end. Worst advice, it ended up being the best advice was to start my own company. And I kind of resisted that for a little bit. I went on a job search and I wasn't having much luck. And then I just kind of got pushed into it because I had some former clients that I did call and tell told them what happened to me. And they just literally mailed me checks in the mail back when people were doing that, and that's how pitch publicity started. So, in hindsight, now probably the best thing that ever happened to me was getting fired like that. Cause I don't think I would have had the gumption to start something on my own.
KristinI love that story. Thank you. Always good to see something like getting fired in hindsight. I love it. Okay, what is your most embarrassing work story?
AmyOh, there's probably many. Uh, but one one that comes to mind, I I tell this story in the book. I did not, I don't tell this embarrassing part of the story. So I will share that with your audience. But I I tell a story in the in my book lift about in my early days, and this is before I started my own company. I was working for the other agency that I just mentioned. But we had a client, and the client was um that I was pitching was Kelly Preston, if you remember the beautiful and elegant Kelly Preston, now who's passed away. But I had booked her on the Montel Williams show. And my boss sent me off to New York for this taping at the Montel Williams show with Kelly Preston. And it was my first, you know, celebrity, if you will, interaction as a publicist. And I was supposed to instruct Kelly on what we were doing and give her all the talking points. And here I am, I'm like my in my early 20s, and um, it was just a really major opportunity. Um, kudos to my former boss who did send me out on these oh my gosh moments to go do things. But I would say that I wasn't really, you know, I I was living in Florida at the time. I was coming out from Florida, I wasn't really privy to all the the New York way of living. And I definitely didn't know about things like designer bags. So this is like early 2000s, and I just, I don't know, it was just never on my radar about designer bags. But Kelly had, of course, a designer bag. And when she uh stepped into the staging area for the Montel Williams show to go on for taping, she left her very nice designer bag. I don't know what it is right now, but I just remember it was very big and very special. She left it on a chair backstage. And I moved her bag from the chair to the floor, which is something you would never ever do. I didn't know that at the time. And um, her handler that was there uh waiting in the the backstage with me, I mean, literally gassed. And he was like, You did not just put Kelly's bag on the floor. I put it on the floor because I was gonna sit in the chair. Like there was no other chair to sit in. And I was like mortified because I didn't know this like social etiquette of designer bags. Of course, I grew up in a very small town and like none of this was like, I was not trained on any of you know how you act around designer bags. So I put the designer bag right back in the chair and stood for the rest of the uh taping. But um embarrassing just because I didn't know like that was a thing. But I learned. You learn real fast. Yes, designer bags do not go on the floor, and if you don't have a seat, they get the seat before you. Absolutely.
KristinWhat is your socially acceptable work vice?
AmyWell, since I am a remote work person, uh, not in an office, I'll give you a remote work one. I think it's okay to work from your bed with your dog at your feet if um if you're getting stuff done. I mean, I just don't want to see that, but um, I do it occasionally. Like, you know, my dog harasses me and I'm like, okay, we'll get in bed and you can like cuddle my feet and I'll get work done. So I think that's fine. I know a lot of people freak out about it. Like, you can't be in bed and work. But I mean, if you're getting stuff done, I don't have a problem if you're in bed, just get the stuff done.
KristinYeah, that's so cute. What's something About your job that sounds impressive but isn't actually that glamorous?
AmyYou probably get this answer a lot, but definitely travel. Travel is not as glamorous as it seems. Parties, events, media interviews. I mean, really, there are all those things that seem so glamorous about a publicist life are extremely stressful. But we make everything look good on social. So I just had somebody the other day tell me, oh no, I know what my publisher, they were like, oh, it looks like your book launch is going so well and you're having so much fun. I'm like, I'm so glad it looks like my book launch is is so much fun because I am totally stressed out over here. Like behind the scenes. But I'm glad that the social looks like I'm just having an easy time at it and we're having parties and it's great. But um, behind the scenes is very stressful. So, and just personally, I mean, I don't mind traveling, I like it, but I, you know, it gets me off my regular routine of eating and exercising and everything. And so I prefer to just be in New York City where I can just run my stuff. But I of course you have to travel sometimes. It just puts me off my game occasionally.
KristinSo when I have to do that, I feel the same way about work travel. I like to be grounded. Last lightning round question is do you fix typos in casual communication? Absolutely.
AmyI'm a I'm a communications expert. So I took a course in college that was a journalism course called reporting, and you would get docked 20 points for one mistake. Comma, out of place, anything. So I my brain is just wired to like fix things. And it's also a pet peeve of mine, too. Somebody's not writing correctly. So I realize that this is might be an older person thing, some people might think, but for me, it's like it's a communications thing. I'm like, just get it together. I don't, I get it, I respect it.
KristinOkay, two more questions for the podcast. What would your advice be to someone who feels off track right now?
AmyWell, I would say number one, if you're just not feeling like you're in the right place, disconnect from all technology for 24 hours, which is really hard to do. Like, literally put your phone on airplane mode and just be in your own thoughts in your own head. Go take a walk in nature, find somewhere where there is like a tree and dirt and grass. And I would say take one day off wherever you live, 24 hours, no technology at all. Do not take any phone calls, just be in your own head. And I would say that's probably the best thing to reset whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed or I'm not, you know, I don't feel like I'm in the right place. That's when the creative juices flow. But you have to get away from everything that's pushing and pulling you. And you have to, if you step into nature, it's an instant stress reliever. I'm gonna go outside right now.
KristinThat was really good advice. Like, like I want to take a day off and hide my phone and go outside. Sounds perfect.
AmyHow can people find you? Well, I have a website called lifttolead.com, and there you can find all the information about my book, uh, Lyft and Mentorship Touch Points to Empower Your Team and Accelerate Your Career. And there's also just some background on me and links as well to my other websites if you're interested. Uh, the initivox one that you mentioned before is linked on that page, or if you want to go to INICIVOX.com, I have it's a free mentorship platform. So if you're just looking to get inspired, to get Amy in your head a little bit, even just for three minutes a day. Um, my microcasts are there, but also some of our long form seminar series are there that have won awards. Um, we've done a seminar series on sexism, on racism, just real talk with real professionals, um, getting down to the nitty-gritty on some things that, you know, would take years to get information from people on because it's very personal. Um, and then also we just have some of the you mentioned before, the Skillshares, just some career advice and uh 45-minute format um Skillshare sessions, too, that you can absorb. So I really wanted to create a place where people could get mentorship anytime and they didn't feel like they had any barriers to it. That's great. I'll include all of those links in the show notes.
KristinThank you so much, Amy, for being with us today. This was excellent. Loved learning from you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I love how immediately upon arrival, she sort of stumbles right into the everything counts ethos of sort of you you try things and it eventually kind of makes up an arc. But you know, when she was, she talks immediately about sort of not setting out to build a media empire. She didn't necessarily have a full roadmap for like podcast, book, microcast. She wanted to track alongside technology. She wanted to stay ahead of the curve. She used the tools that were available to her in that moment. And then other things started to fall into place. And now she can sort of look back 10-ish years later and say this career was really built one experiment at a time. Each piece of media was to serve a purpose, but altogether, it's an entire ecosystem, which I think is really cool. I also really kind of can't stop thinking about how her career, her entrepreneurship started when she got fired. And I don't know, I think that's probably a common experience. It's not that it's the most out there idea that we've heard, but the bravery that it takes. You have just taken a hit by getting fired. And you have to pick yourself back up and not only find a new job, but build something, building something from scratch. It's it's an incredible move of bravery and of resilience and kind of inspiring. And then I'm sort of thinking about, you know, her her advice down the road, all the, you know, all these years later, after starting her business and finding so much success, her advice is to go outside, take time away from your phone to figure out what's next or what path you should be on. And I'd love to know, you know, what her methods were back when this happened, when she got fired, what kind of pause did she take? How many days of thinking how many parks did she visit metaphorically and or literally? Um, because I think a lot of times, you know, when we're kind of standing at the crossroads of something and we're thinking like, our career has done this so far, and now a decision has to be made. Anyway, I'm down a rabbit hole because I'm thinking a lot about something I posted on Substack several weeks ago where I talk about a daily walk that I take. And honestly, in hindsight, I recorded this interview a couple months ago, and I'm pretty sure I started taking my daily walks after this interview. So maybe she gets a little bit of credit for implementing these long nature walks into my life, but they have really become this point of reflection where you can't escape the fact that things are always changing. Life is always changing, technology is always changing. Geopolitically, we have things that are quite literally constantly changing. In my line of work right now, it's a little bit of a scary moment. So it's a natural point at which to be thinking, what am I doing? And what am I building? And where, you know, where am I finding my resilience? And what does that mean for myself, but also for my team? Anyway, so I really write a lot about what it means when I look out on the water and I see water hitting the rocks of the shore. There's a reflection there for me around am I the water or am I the rocks? Am I the water that's sort of like shaping my world? It's like I'm coming and I'm going and I'm always here and I'm gonna shape my reality. That's one answer. And then the other is being the rocks and being the thing that is here and is stable and resilient, but does ultimately get shaped by the events around it, by the water that is hitting it every day. There's no answer. I was inspired to go find nature after speaking to her. And it has, in fact, shaped some of my worldview and some of how I'm thinking about the constant changes around us, which circles right back to, I really kind of keep coming back to her microcasts. I think that's a really good moment to point out where something was coming, something was changing. She saw a piece of technology and she thought, I'm gonna be on the front lines of that. And she built from there. And so what can we see coming? What can we not, what are we comfortable not seeing coming? But where are the points that we just sort of put down a stake and say, I'm gonna build from here? I'm gonna start that microcrest, or hey, even more devastatingly, I'm gonna build a business after getting fired. There's some inspiration to draw from here. And of course, we should always take into consideration, hold closely the knowledge of our publicist friends because they really understand what it means to build something and make sense of something. She says at some point that sometimes she has to take complicated ideas and turn them into something that's digestible and understandable. And that's because a lot of the every business, everything, every brand is coming from a place of passion, probably from at least one person. A passion that is so deep and excited and full of life that it's hard to nail down and turn into one consistent message. I'm really inspired by this conversation to find what's next, to see what's on the horizon and to build it. And it doesn't have to make sense for whatever else is happening, but eventually it all ties together. And eventually everything counts. Anyway, that's our that's our podcast for today. Thank you as always for listening. I love having you. I love sharing these moments and these stories with you. I would love for you to come find us on social media at everything countspod on Instagram and LinkedIn, and our website is everythingcountspod.com. Come say hi and leave us a review. And I'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to everything counts, but nothing is real. Remember, even when nothing feels real, everything you do counts. Capitalism may be absurd, but so are we. And on that note, well, it's been real. Don't forget to subscribe. I'm Kristen. I'll see you next time.