The Write Path #45 - "Warrior Mother..." with Author Sheila K. Collins!!!

My guest today is Dr. Sheila K. Collins, author of the recently released The Art of Grieving: How Art and Artmaking Help Us Grieve and Live Our Best Lives. A grief advocate and international speaker, Dr. Collins brings both personal experience and professional expertise to her work. She has endured the loss of a son to AIDS and a daughter to breast cancer—losses she chronicled in her award-winning memoir, Warrior Mother: Fierce Love, Unbearable Loss and the Rituals that Heal.
With a 40-year career as a therapist, professor, and social worker and a background as a professional dancer, Dr. Collins has helped thousands transform life’s toughest challenges into post-traumatic growth. Her TEDx talk, When Death Threatens Someone We Love, offers a poignant perspective for those supporting loved ones through terminal illness.
She is also the author of Stillpoint: A Self-Care Playbook for Caregivers, now a popular online course for family and professional caregivers.
She currently directs the Wing & A Prayer Pittsburgh Players, an InterPlay-based performance troupe that helps individuals and organizations tell their stories in transforming ways.

Her Website:  https://sheilakcollins.com/

Welcome to the Write Path Podcast, where being an author, an actual author, still matters. This isn't the place for the Chat GPT experts or the AI buffs to churn out soulless content with no heart.  This is the place where authors share their journeys, explore their creativity, examine the "Why?" behind it all and come together to celebrate each other. This is the podcast for authors, about authors, and by an author, where the truth still counts and words still have power. Join Us!  You have a story to tell!

Contact us on all our social media platforms and email us at thewritepathpodcast@gmail.com  

This is the place where authors know that every page... is a step forward. Let's move forward together, let's move forward today. Listen now.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Right Path Podcast, where being an author, an actual author, still matters. Folks, this is the podcast that's for authors, it's about authors, it's done by an author. This is where we share our journeys, we explore our creativity, and most importantly, we examine the why behind it all. Folks, our guest today, an unbelievably accomplished young lady who I cannot wait to introduce to you folks. Um, she is a uh grief advocate and an award-winning author. She's written several books, uh, among them Still Point, a self-care playbook for caregivers, her memoir, Warrior Mother, Fierce Love, Unbearable Loss, and the Rituals That Heal, and her most recent uh book, which we're going to talk about today also, The Art of Grieving, How Art and Art Making Help Us Grieve and Live Our Best Lives. Please welcome to the show, Sheila Collins. Sheila, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I'm doing good.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate you being here. Um, there is so much to dive into with this. You have all of this going. You've got a course, you've got your retreats, you've got the whole bit. Um, tell us a little bit about you, and and maybe we can start with uh sort of your your first book that you put out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah. Well, first of all, I I didn't grow up to say I was going to be a writer, although Sister Marcia, and uh I have to say she was the one that kept pointing to my abilities to write and thinking that maybe I should go to college and I should do that. And I was happy that she liked my writing, but I was a dancer at that time. And dancing you have to do when you're young. You can't put it off. So I mean, I took one year of college and went to New York, where you can make a living as a as a dancer. So that was my first career, and then I came back to it after having been in the theater and in uh in dance, in the dance world, which is by the way, the toughest of the arts for sure. I I think so. And uh, but I I think also it's uh you know, the dance is really the the gift of dance is joy. So you can't get any better than that, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

And uh and actually my first book that I did write was uh after I had been a social worker, and uh uh and I started, I was encouraged as a social worker to use my theater background and my experience with the arts with clients and patients, and I did that. Uh so uh at one point I had a uh clinic in Texas with my husband, he's a psychologist, and uh we had a movement room, so and we and I had people enact their stories to one another and did a lot of that kind of thing. And so my first book was actually called Still Point, The Dance of Self-Caring, Self-Healing. So I saw I kind of tend to see things as let's let it be a dance, you know, it it's not just a struggle, but let's make it a dance and have a little rhythm connected to it also.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

What a great perspective. Uh so you you've been involved in the the creative side of things for, I mean, most of your life, sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Well, this is it. And and I I do think also our lives, you know, the things we didn't plan on, and things I always say there's a lot of things in your life that if it was on a menu, you would never order it. Never, never. So I had quite a bit of that happen. So uh after uh so what did happen for for us is that our we had a son who uh who uh was um diagnosed with AIDS at the time when that was a death sentence. And he uh he died um just I mean, he was on the trial, so there were people that we know at that time who are still here, but it it the when you're on a trial, you never know what the medicine is that you're actually getting, you know. So yeah, so that was uh the first kind of big loss that we had in our family. And then um I also had a very good best friend who had cancer, and she uh invited me when she was not gonna be able to make it, she invited me to come and be with her. And um I that was an odd invitation for sure. And and she and she said, You would really like this, Roy. You do this for me, and then when when it's happening to you, I'll I'll be there for you. And I'm thinking, how is that gonna work? I don't think so. But you know it was because going through it with going through it with her, then when my son, I mean, I you know, I've been there. I mean, I I've it helps. And especially when nobody ever talks about any of this. So you can't it's hard to pick any, you know, pick up any tips from your neighbors. Nobody's nobody's at that point telling talking about any of this. So uh, and then this uh so then the second uh loss that we had was our daughter uh five years later who had breast cancer, and we went through all of that. Uh and of course, one out of every woman still has breast cancer. I mean, that's uh kind of in the United States, um, but she hers was a particularly difficult uh kind that she and was she wasn't able to make it. So then if you're a writer, you um you had something you want to write about. And and actually I wanted to write about some of the things that happened. I had been a dancer, I had been a therapist, and there were things I had happened that I'd never heard of. And and some of them were really good things, actually. So I wanted to, and so I knew I had to get good enough to write the kind of story I wanted to write. By now I'm you know getting more of a sense of quality. And so um, yeah, so that so what I did then is I started um I I got a hold of a um, I got a hold of a uh, in fact, when I moved to Pittsburgh, I I met a a man who was a teacher and he had a group that he was getting ready to put together. And um, so he said, I showed him my work that I was doing, and I was using an improvisational system from dance that where you just uh are improvising little snippets of things and it's kind of playfulness, it's kind of a playful attitude. And uh so he said, Yeah, just keep doing what you're doing and uh and keep the play in it, he said, keep it, keep the play in it. So then he invited me to be in this group, and he he's I remember he sent all of us to some coffee shop so we could meet each other, the other people. And I I say to him, Um, listen, I mean, these people are way better writers than I am. I mean, some woman already had a book, and I don't know, two or three a journal, real journalists that actually went to school for that, you know. And uh he said, Sheila, it's like tennis. That's how you get better. You play with people that are better than you. So the the the for sure, uh the the book that I wrote, uh Warrior Mother, the memoir, Fierce Love, Unbearable Loss, and the Rituals That Heal. I mean, I definitely have to give an incredible uh an incredible um uh shout out to the people who who you know we share, write a little something, share it. I don't know, this doesn't make an I don't get this, I don't know what you're talking about, you know, that kind of thing. Having people to respond, I think that's you know the big thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yeah. I'm so sorry for your your losses, honestly. I have to just say that. And no parents should ever have to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well, I know we would be it would be good, like I say, if we um didn't have those things that uh come along that we would never want to have happen. Right and yet the mystery of the whole thing is that some of the most amazing, beautiful things in your life come from that. I mean, I it's just it's crazy. It's just uh it's it's something that uh you really recognize um you you have to be there for you have to well the therapist will say you have to go through it to get to the other side, and there is another side. You you're different, you're changed by whatever it is. And one of the changes is you have an incre you you don't take as much for granted anymore. Yeah, but you you don't assume as much. You you really appreciate uh what you have or when you you appreciate the gifts.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yeah, I can only imagine, my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah, so I really I feel like a lot of my writing uh was really geared to tell some of the good news of the bad news or the good side of the bad news. I mean and um so uh so then uh but then it was the response to Warrior Mother that really drove me to another to to the my most recent book because I I really had no idea that people were that afraid of bad news or you know difficult things, especially anything to do with death. And and um I I I wasn't I didn't realize that, and uh, but it was very clear, you know, as you're um doing something related to your book and you can see the person looking for the exit, although they're saying things like, I'm really sorry to hear that, and they're they're trying to get out of the room. Right. So, you know, and I and so I asked the question, well, why is that? I mean, well, how did we get to this? Uh I mean, everybody's everybody at some level knows we're all gonna die. That's it. I mean, that is the end of the story, you know, uh, at least on this plane. So um uh if that isn't a surprise, is it? I mean, you know, so it's uh it becomes crazy. So anyway, I had some pretty interesting experiences though with getting trying to get uh Warrior Mother Book out. So, like I uh my book was published by a new publisher called She Writes Press. Now, this is after you've been turned down by a lot of other presses that say things to you like grief doesn't sell. So, and you're thinking, what story do you know of in literature or television program or that doesn't have some tragedy or really bad thing happens, otherwise, it's just boring.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

You're right.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

You're right, yeah. And and if nobody have ever has anything to overcome, then they're not having a life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

But anyway, so uh yeah, so but this was the collection, then it was their first year of this. Uh she she writes press is the name of the press. And oh, that was such a blessing for me. Uh and there were all these other women who had heard the same news, you know, grief doesn't sell. And most of our stories that we have have something to do with things not working out. Maybe they come out good in the end, I don't know. But uh so so so anyway, I I decided to perform the book and uh using my skills as a performer. And I by this time I had an improv troupe. And because I know that if I tell you a story about my life, you will have another, you will have one that's connected. It will re if it's true what I'm saying, it will remind you of something. And and so what I would do is tell a little snippet of something from the story, from my story, and then I would call on the troupe. And the big thing about this is that we know what the troupe, the the troupe knows the form. So you call the form, might be a singing form, might be a dancing form, might be a moving or combination, but they they know the form and then they do it. And so um I was going to be performing in um in Scotland at the at the uh fringe festival. Our group is going to the fringe festival, and in the fringe festival, they also have a section on books. So my publisher says, Oh, well, you should do something about the book. And I was thinking, well, they don't know me, and they don't know you because you're a brand new publisher. We're both in, you know. So I have to figure out a way to make this interesting. And so I said, Okay, well, we're gonna be improving over there. So I'm I'll just bring my improv people in and we'll just win the spot there. We'll because usually uh our um an author does some kind of a talk or something, you know, about their book. People ask you questions, you know. So um, so that's what we did. We performed the book in uh as part of the fringe festival. And um, so so it was great. And people that came, and and I did this later in Pittsburgh and other places, people that came, they loved it, they were so intrigued, you couldn't get them to go home. I'm just like, all right, we're done now, you know. But they because we had brought up something that people don't get to talk about very much. Yeah, and and so it's like a relief. Oh, yeah, well, I should tell you about my daughter. Um, you know, this kind of thing. So um, so that was what uh started to happen, and and and that's how I saw that uh we need well, I just wanted to understand how we even got here and how we can do something about this. And I mentioned uh to you that I consider myself now a grief advocate. Somebody said to me, Well, you're a grief expert. I said, No, no, nobody's a gr nobody's a grief expert. I'm a grief advocate, which means I believe that the ability to grieve and being able to do the grief, what they call grief work, but you know, the process, go through the process, is eventually an enriching experience because when you lose something very important in your life, and it m it doesn't even have to be a person, it can be a a career, it can be an injury that means you can't do whatever your sport will. I mean, it could be anything that changes your your plans, your plans, um then uh to go through that and you're you need to use your creativity to come up with your new the new you or the new life. And uh that's so that that's to me the connection then. And and when I looked back on what had helped me, it was really the creative stuff. It was the making stuff up, it was the making something out of something that you don't, you know, isn't uh really evident right away. Right. And um, and so um, yeah, so so that then so then that's when I started, um, I actually started it as a blog to just I decided um since nobody wants to talk about loss, grief is really dealing with loss. And so um, but there's a lot of loss. I mean, we're not gonna say we don't have losses, you know. Sure. The stock market goes up and then it sometimes goes down, like bad, very inconveniently sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

So like, oh, I thought I was gonna, oh, I'm not, you know. So uh yeah, so that that so I anything. I started to write every, you know, write a little blog about something. If it was something that happened in my life or something that happened in our life, our culture or something, then I would write about that. And that's where really the um the Art of Grieving book came from. I mean, eventually I had so much material, I could have had eight books, you know, and uh and then I had and then I had to go through the same thing with that. I in terms of I put together a proposal and um somebody that knows a lot about um book uh publishing said, well, this this stuff about the this stuff about the um uh about the um being uh sheltered at staying at home, having to stay home and all that stuff. I mean, isolated and in uh pandemic. Um by the time this book is there they you have to take all that out because by the time this book is published, nobody's gonna want to hear about the pandemic anymore. So I said, so that's the problem. That's that's how we got here in the first place. All of your indigenous people know about grieving. They have all kinds of rituals to do it. It's not a problem. I mean, it's not a problem, it's just a thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

But so, but but what happened to us, uh, I mean, the Western culture was the first pandemic. The that was called the Spanish uh flu or whatever. But and that particular one took young people, tended to take young people rather than the more recent one, which tended to take old people. But and so anyway, but and when and when that was done, I mean, when they didn't want to talk about it, they did. And and even Freud's work was influenced by it because he lost a daughter in that pandemic. So even his writing leads us to not understand really what we need to do about grief. So uh so then I had to just publish it myself because I mean I'm not standing in line anymore with this. Besides, I'm too old.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Good for you though. So you self-published the last one.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

So yeah, yeah, we did uh a colleague of mine, and uh we did, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

That's wonderful. So um how is that I was just gonna say, how was that different, you know, self-publishing that one as opposed to the ways of the others?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Well, my uh actual original book was self-published through my clinic. So but and and much harder to do at that time when it wasn't as set up as it is now.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

You know, I mean it's not it's it's much easier. That's one of the technologies that has gotten a lot easier, uh for sure, so that people can uh and the gatekeepers don't have as much power than they as they had in those days, you know, to tell you that grief doesn't sell. Doesn't sell it won't sell. We're not gonna invest in it because it's not gonna sell.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

No, yeah, they're still acting that way, they still have all those same opinions, they've just changed the topics a little bit. Well, probably, I'm sure. Probably, yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, um I'm um I want to back up because I don't want to forget this part of it, and this kind of goes with the first book, but um the still point uh self-care playbook for uh caregivers, you have a course that you do with that too that I want to make sure people know about. So you mind just telling us about that real quick and then we'll we'll go back to the first book.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Absolutely, because it really happened when the pandemic happened. So we had I had been encouraged to redo that book, and I got a younger person to help me with it, and then she got to have uh a book earlier in her career than I had in mind, so that was good. And she's another dancing social worker, so we had we did it online. I mean, we you know worked on it online, and uh so um yeah, so so then uh we were able to bring that book out. Um, and uh, and then of course, May, well, March 2020, you may remember where you were, but where I was is in my room. And she said to me, We are not going anywhere, and you are especially not going anywhere because of my age at that point, you know. Uh so um, so she said, We're gonna have to put it online. So I said, Well, I don't think what we do is gonna work online. I was pretty sure of it, and I am so glad, Roy, that I was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Because it online, we got a lot of social workers, we got a lot of caregivers, people taking care of seniors, people, people taking care of younger kids, sometimes doing both, the old sandwich generation, you know. And um, so we put it on, uh, and that is now six years. And we've been uh with only a couple of weeks off for a vacation at some point during the year, we we do this. And and uh the part I love to tell is we both said, Well, people are gonna need this. You know, we're social works, they're gonna need it. And when I tell you, there's no day that I couldn't say to you, boy, did I need that. Did I need that? So so the gift of it is just I I I can't even describe it. It's just so wonderful. And so by now, of course, we've gone through with some of these people, and we get new people all the time, because we put we put it on um a platform called Reimagine. And let's reimagine is the name of the platform. And this these were some young people that were wanting to reimagine life and loss and mortality, and they were in the place where I was about what is what are we avoiding here? Well, why can't we just talk about this and understand it and understand this is the human condition? Uh, and so they they had these big 30,000 people in San Francisco for a big conference, and then they did one in New York, big conference. They were about to do one in in in Dallas, I think, March 2020, same.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

We're not we're not getting together 30,000 people anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

We're not so, but the smart thing they did is they took their money, and it's a nonprofit, so they didn't have a lot of money, but the money they had, and they built the platform so that. People could do presentations online. And so we started that's when we started doing our class online. And that's when I started realizing that I can create very similarly what I can create in person, I can create online in terms of the connection people can have. And there's and there's also even some there's even some advantages, I think, for people. Because we're asking people sometimes to risk a little bit doing something different than you normally do. So and they can turn their camera off or go off screen. So even though I think everybody really likes being in the room, it's really great to be in the room together in re for real, what we call in real. Um, but but the fact that, and you know this from the work you're doing, I mean, you you really you really can connect with people and you really can um have this human experience through these little windows.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Yeah, I think uh especially that's one thing that came from the pandemic that was a good thing was that we all created these new avenues that now still work. So uh for sure. For sure, for sure. The um I appreciate you telling everybody about that. The um with all these different books, every author has a process, of course. You know, and we kind of get into that and and you know what is it like? Some people are oh, I'm gonna write for an hour a day, and some people say, Hey, when I get motivated, I take notes and then I collect the notes, and there's all sorts of different processes in how you write. I'm curious what is your process in terms of how you write, and also you know, because these books are so incredibly personal to you, how maybe that impacts you know the process itself also.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Well, I believe that people write, um let me how to say this. So the expressive arts, and I would, and and certainly writing, like journaling, for instance, is something that people do start sometimes as a kid, you know, just writing stuff down and then looking at it, you know, and reading it back to yourself. Uh part of it is you learn about yourself. If nobody, you don't even need anybody else. I mean, you know, and and you well, uh uh some people are more oral, so like my friend Rose, she would say, Well, I don't know what I think until I hear myself say it out loud.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Love that.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

That's that's that's an oral person, you know. And and so I would say that I am one of those people, but I'm also a person who can write stuff and then go, oh yeah, well there, yeah. Or it or or what you're writing changes into something you hadn't intended it to. So so what I do in my teaching, I explain to people that there's a part of us that's smarter than we are, and it's not the part that makes all the plans and you know, all this in the top of our heads here. This that part is the other, well, Einstein called it the it's the other side of the brain, and he called it this is the part that is supposed to be leading. And the part that we this figure everything out part is supposed to be following because our that our create our creative new ideas are on that side of the brain, and they come out when you write, when you sing, when you dance. Um you get in a it changes your brain. And by the way, there I I'm I have to mention this book, which I don't get any money from this, but I have to tell you about it because it came out about uh a month before mine, and um, it's called Your Brain on Art. And so I saw this and I thought, oh, I fooled around too long, and somebody's now brought up my book. I betcha. You know, I mean, that's the first thing. As a writer, you think, oh, you know, because it's true. I mean, ideas are in the ether, and we somebody grabs them, you know, and puts it together. So, and of course, and but no, no, and so that book, that book, your brain on art. I mean, I have to just how the arts transform us, these women, Susan Magsiman and Ivy Ross, John Hopkins University, and we can now see what the brain is doing without cutting into the head of the person. We have imagery that is possible, and so they can tell they can see what's happening when you sing, what's happening when you're watching a film. They can see what's happening when you're dancing or or writing, whatever it is you're doing, it lights up different parts of the brain. So this is you know, so that's we have to to be creative, you have to be in the part of the brain that is smarter than you are, in the sense, you know, you have to let yourself go and let it lead. Let it lead you.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I see. Okay. I I love the answer. I really do. I had no idea we were going there, but wow. So uh incredibly informative. The um have has your process changed from the first book to the newest one?

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Oh, for sure. I mean, um, yeah, in fact, the first book, uh, I um I mean, even though Sister Mercia told me I was gonna be a good writer, I I didn't, I mean it had been quite a long time.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

I mean Sister Marcia said that's we gotta go with that.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Sister Mercia, yeah. But uh, but I but I did have some wonderful people to help me. And and uh they knew my work, they knew what I was trying to do, and so I I was always, you know, um getting a lot of advice. And in fact, one of the biggest advice I had uh uh was the name of the book. So I had I said this is the dance of self-caring, self-healing. That was the name, and I had no interest in changing the name. But I had several people that were readers for me, and so we had a meeting, and one of them said, I'm not sure about the name. And I'm thinking, I am very sure about the name. I didn't say, but I mean I'm very sure about the name. So, but we are going to go, we are gonna go into the silence together. So this is a this is something that comes from Quakers. You just go into the side. We we know that we're this is a question that we have about the name of this book, and we go into the silence together, and someone says at some point, still point. As soon as they said it, my body goes, Yes, like somebody rang a bell. It's and I'm so amazed that if you had asked me, I would not be willing to say change the name of that book. I mean, but it was there. And and so even though I had to change the name the second time, we didn't change Still Point because because and you know there's that wonderful poem about it, you know, it it the oh trying to think who it is, you because you've heard it uh in the in the stillness. Um there is um there is movement, it's not do not call it fixity. It's not, you know, do not call it fixity. Um it is the still point. It and and there isn't and it is that is the dance, it is the dance, and there is no um, there is nothing but the still point. So, so again, it's the it you could say it's the creative center, it's the connection to your ancestor. I mean, you could think about it in many different ways, but there is something that we all share. And and often when we're in a certain community of creative people, which is the best, by the way, the best. So that people can somebody comes up with an idea and somebody else and and none of that would happen if we were by ourselves. It just wouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So that's the other, you know. So so the work that I do, um, the the system that I use is called interplay, interplay, and and it's based in dance, but it uses music and story and um stillness. And stillness, going into stillness or silence, and just seeing what emerges in the in the ether of the community. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

That's amazing. Okay, I've never heard anything described that way before either. So that's that's very unique. Very unique. All right, I love that. Um as uh maybe this is a very obvious answer given what you've been through. But I I ask this question a lot of folks. When you um when we're writing our books, very often we are writing these books to someone, or we're writing them for someone, or you know, but there's there's someone in our mind's eye that we're kind of speaking to as we're writing them. Um who did you write these books to or for?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Um, well, uh, I guess uh speaking to or for, um I guess here's a way I would answer that. So I come into um mental health uh from uh the theater, from a da as a dancer and um and a creative person, and um, and I'm working with people who are struggling with their own depression or you know handling of things. And um and so I was encouraged by my teachers to use what I knew in theater and to bring that into mental health, into my mental health work, into my work as a therapist. And so I did. And and and I really now I've come to believe that actually that's the indigenous way, you know. Uh I mean if you go to an indigenous cultures, how they would do. So they would sit around a fire, maybe, and they would tell stories. That's an art. And you always they'd have some people who are terrific at it. And people would say, Hey, Rory, tell that again. We want to hear that one again, you know. So, so, or and they would dance. Uh, and uh so and they would sing and they would sing. Well, uh I've one of the ways I'd love to hear it, these are the people who will sing your name in case you've forgotten it. They will sing your name, they will remember. So that so that's the other thing that's come to me now that I see we're trying to live as individuals and and handle everything ourselves, and that's considered really great if you do that. Oh, look at me, or I'm I've made it, you know. And no wonder kids are scared because it it's too big, it's too much. No, you it's not that's not how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be we. It's supposed to be we. It's community. It's you know, I there's a great article in the in the Times, uh, New York Times about being in a band, right? And and it and they were talking about being in a band. You can't sing, you can't dance, never mind. It doesn't matter, you know. I mean, because it's not really about being incredibly skilled. It's I mean, music, we are we are vibratory beings. And when somebody's beating some kind of a rhythm, there's something about that that feels great. I mean, it's you know, it life is awful in some ways or really scary. And so, hey, we're all on the same beat. This is great, you know. So, um, yeah, so I think we we're we've been asking ourselves to do something that is not is not the right thing to ask. And we and what and what we're seeing now with the kids who were in the uh in their rooms at the time when they should have been or could have been out with one another, and we are seeing that they don't have certain social skills, they're they have anxiety. Yes, yes, that's right. That's what that's what comes from the burden of having to do it all yourself.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

You know? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Amazing. All right, I I love your your perspective on all of it. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

I wanted people to have the information that I had and that was helpful to me and what I see works, and and as I keep following that, I'm learning, of course, all the time. Like I said, people need this class that I'm doing, but they don't need it. I mean, I can't say I don't need it because maybe I can get by without it, but why would I want to?

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Right. Right, absolutely. Um, one of the things that uh people try to do, I think we have an old school idea of uh let's go to the publishing deck, you know, for a minute. If we can get a publisher, maybe they help us advertise or maybe they help us get the book out, right? And and we still, even with some publishers now, you have to do all your own marketing.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Oh, so no, no, not with some. Oh, oh, oh.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

There you go. So how do you how do you handle that? What works for you, what what doesn't work for you? How do you get the word out for all these wonderful books to let people know they're there?

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Well, you know, that was what I was gonna say. The most difficult thing about, and and I've even said to young people, maybe you don't want a book, maybe you want a book lit. Well, I mean, uh why do you have to have 300 pages, right? Maybe not. Uh so it's maybe it's too big of a thing to do, and and maybe people, and besides, people's um attention spans are getting shorter and shorter. So when they see the side of the book, they're like, I don't know, I don't want to read that many words.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

So so there's a there's a lot of change that's happened in the culture, uh, even since I've been doing this, you know. And um, so and and even the ways in which I mean I I can't even tell you how many courses and things I've done to try to get my book out and get it to the people that I think would be helpful, uh, that it would be helpful to. And um, and then there's something new that they're doing now that I my husband said, Oh, it's just a scam. I don't know if it's a scam, but um somebody will send me a wonderful, probably AI generated description of my book and how wonderful it is and how I should get it out, and they can help me do that. And so, you know, and I don't I don't know, I should try who are these people? You know, I don't know. I mean, who are they?

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Sounds a little like a scam.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Well, it could be a scam, but it also I could also see uh somebody was saying uh they were uh putting together a um oh what did they call it uh guide to grief books or something, you know. So I mean, you know, I mean the the again people people tick tock, there's a great example, TikTok. I mean, you know, there was somebody doing books on T selling books on T TikTok and selling all these books, you know, on TikTok. And and so is that is that my audience? Probably not, but I don't know. There's some old people that are doing teaching exercise programs on TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

I'm telling you, I don't I it's hard to know. It's it's uh it's hard to know. And so I guess what I've finally decided is there is a way you can when you can get in this place of trusting that you're putting the energy out, and there's people that you know that it could be that there's somebody that there are people that want that and that need that, you know. And just recently I had I was on uh this is another thing that's great about you know this uh platforms, these uh platforms like you have. So um it's uh I had done a presentation for the Expressive Arts Therapy Association, uh, International Expressive Arts Therapy Association. And part of this train this program was we they put us in what we call connection rooms, not breakout rooms. I don't like breakout rooms, but connection rooms. So we we had a connection, uh we had a breakout, we had a connection room, and here was this young woman from Canada, and when I tell you her life and my life, and I mean, talk about who is your ideal client. This is I mean, and I'm her ideal something. I mean, you know, we're we're a different generation, but it's amazing, you know. So you just so now I just have to kind of um let go of that I'm gonna that I can make all this happen and let it happen, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

To really let it happen and and let the let it speak for itself. I mean, you know, and and let's be attracted to. Um it's it's it is the um it is the element of attraction rather than sell, sell, sell.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Sure, 100%. I actually I actually agree with that completely in a lot of different ways. So um I love that. The let me change gears because just in the interest of time, I want to make sure that we cover this. Your most recent book, uh The Art of Grieving, uh, is uh sort of brought you to doing in-person retreats, which is a new thing for you and seems to be you know pretty big. So tell folks what that's about and what's happening there.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

I will, and I'll tell you, I've always gone to retreats. I have one retreat which I'm going to this weekend. I've been going to the woods in Texas since 1991.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Wow, nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

We know everything about each other. We know everything. So all the backstories. Uh so uh so I've always gone to them, but I've and so I kind of had this dream. Wouldn't it be great to be able to have a retreat with this book and to actually partner with uh an art-making organization? And so um, and this kind of came about because there's an organization in Pennsylvania called Touchstone Center for Craft, been there since the 90s, uh dedicated to um uh support for the Appalachian arts. And uh so this man was the um uh marketing director, and he got a hold of my book and he calls me up, you know, and we start talking and we come up with this idea of a partnership where we where I can have my people and you know, uh and online do some stuff online and then move it into uh doing some stuff at the uh craft at the touchstone center. So we tried it last year and and and we started it in without really enough time. I mean, I'm thinking, I don't know. This I mean, but it happened. You know, it happened. I mean, my husband helped, he he he said he'd cook, so he was the cook. I mean, you know, and it was so wonderful. So the we're gonna do another one. This in it's in Pennsylvania, and we will be uh collaborating with the Touchstone Center for the Arts. We'll be and we'll have we'll be having small little experiences of art making. So that um, and one of them is in will be in um watercolors. We'll go for a walk in the wood in the woods, and then we'll come back and we'll do all watercolors. And you and you if you don't know how to do it, that's great. This is your virgin, you know, uh chance. And um, and then this we this year we're also they have a um blacksmithing class. Now you can't get more different than that. You're in the fire and the hammers and the metal, and then you're in the forest, and so there's both of those qualities that have to do with grief for sure, and and a lot of things. And then we're also going to the um ruins project, and the ruins project, if you don't know about that, you gotta go and see it. It is incredible. It is um a hundred years ago, it was a coal mine, and it was closed a hundred years ago, and uh and what was left standing, there was above ground, were these rebarb cement walls, and this is rebarbed cement when they invented it, and this is gonna be here longer than the hills. Well, right, and so this woman who grew up around there, and she's an artist and she's a mosaic artist, and uh Rachel uh is her name, and she gets a place where she can afford maybe to buy a little house. And there was one that she remembered driving by all the time, or so here she sees it online, she buys this thing. And um, she doesn't know that this was actually the business office for that um coal mine, and she doesn't know that on her property is the coal mine with these three bar panels, uh, you know, walls, and now she She's a she's a pretty well known mosaic artist. And she knows a lot of other ones. So she gets them all to start descending stuff. And this becomes a memorial to the coal people, which around here, if you're from around here, you got coal people in your ancestry. You do. You may they may went trying to pretend like you don't, but you do. Yeah, you do. So um, yeah, so so I mean, so what we do then, we we make a mosaic. We we have the experience and and we make a mosaic um to represent and the one that I made was because I've lost a number of my siblings, and I made a forget me not flower with the petals representing my family, and I have it on my desk. So that's a way of honoring for me where I came from, you know, and the people that have helped me get here. So um, so that's kind of how it works, and it's just um so I'm very excited about it. And then in October, we'll do one in Santa Fe. So and we connect with local art making uh an artist so we can get a sense of place.

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Nice. I mean, it sounds like a fantastic uh event that you're putting together for everybody. Yes, yes. That's wonderful. Um, all right. Um as we kind of bring this down to a close, and and I'm glad that we kind of covered a lot of these things and uh you've shared so much. I really do appreciate it. I know our listeners do too. Um before I get to my last question, uh I do want to make sure that we get some contact info out for you because you've got books, you've got a course, you've got, you know, uh the retreat. So how do people find out more about this and and contact Sheila Collins?

SPEAKER_00 45:52

The easiest way, you just have to know how to spell my n spell my name, because my website is Sheila Collins, Sheila K Collins at Yahoo. Wait a minute, that's my email address. Sheila KCollins uh is um dot com is my website, and so it's s-h-e-i-l a k c O L L I-N-S. And I have a lot of videos on there, and I have a lot of information about the retreats and the books, and had a really wonderful creative uh website person who helped me put all that together. So that's probably the best way, but you could also just send me Sheila K Collins at Gmail and let me know what you want to know about or what you want to be connected to.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Awesome. All right, so it's Gmail, not Yahoo.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah, it's Gmail with a K. Sheila K.collins at Gmail.

SPEAKER_01 46:43

Gotcha. We'll make sure that stuff's in the show notes for you, too, so everybody can find you. But yeah. All right. Um, the the final question that I usually do ask folks uh you are a published author over and over. You've been through the publishing gamut, you've learned a ton. So we have a lot of folks who listen to this who are um sort of aspiring authors and they'd love to be published. We have a lot of folks who are um authors and are published, but man, they they'd love to try it a different way. So uh what is your best piece of advice for other authors or aspiring authors who are not as accomplished as you are in this whole uh you know course of business uh yet?

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Well, I you've probably heard this expression. It takes a village to raise a child. It takes maybe a village or two to write a book and get it out. I mean it's not something you have you do by yourself. So, but that doesn't mean, you know, there's a di a lot of different ways. And so uh it there are people that will help you self-publish, uh, what's called self-publish, you know, but um, but even then, I mean you you're still you need to you need and you just like you need an editor. I mean, you know, every author knows you got you gotta have somebody look this over. Another pair of eyes, maybe two pairs of eyes or three pairs. So and and you want to get reactions from people. So that's one of the things the younger people are doing really well is they'll they'll send out some little section of a book of the of that they're writing, and then have people, you know, respond to it. And that's what the writers group did for me. So you're getting because you want to reach people and you want it to land in a good way, you know, and but we don't always, you know, it's tricky in speaking, and it's certainly tricky in writing. So that to have people that are willing to look at your work and willing to respond to you, that's really, you know, how that's that's gold.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. All right, I knew you would wrap that up uh just perfectly with a nice little bow. So uh we have uh a grief advocate and award-winning author. Uh Sheila K. Collins uh is with us today. Sheila, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your story, um, and and just letting everybody in, you know, to kind of uh to see what what life really is like and to just encourage everybody the way you have. Uh your attitude's amazing, and I love what you're doing right now. So thank you. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

A great opportunity. Thank you, Roy. Very much appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Thank you so much. All right, folks, that's been another just amazing episode of the Right Path Podcast, where the truth still matters and words still have power. Folks, this is the place for authors who know that every page is a step forward towards finding your right path. Until next time.