Hivin' N Vibin' With Dr. BB
Home to Hivin' N Vibin' with Dr. Bb, a podcast hosted by our founder Dr. Banya Barua. The show features a variety of coaches and leaders as our guests who give their insights on their areas of expertise.
Hivin' N Vibin' With Dr. BB
Breaking Through Male Dominated Industries with Katherine Schadewald
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Meet Kathy Schadewald, a trailblazer in male-dominated industries, lifelong learner, and founder of Deliver Workforce Solutions. From being the first woman apprentice in GE’s tool room to leading national education and training projects, Kathy’s career is driven by curiosity, pragmatism, and the question, “What’s next?” Passionate about bridging education, industry, and community, she now focuses on empowering under-served communities and creating sustainable workforce solutions. Kathy’s story is a masterclass in resilience, adaptability, and leaving a meaningful legacy.
Ivan and Viven with Dr. Bibi. Katherine, did I pronounce your name correctly? Almost. Catherine Shadwald. Shadwald. Okay, thank you. I will ask you about your your family. So I would like to know from where you got this surname and how did it come out to be this? So, but with that, let me first introduce you to Catherine Shadwald, and she is the founder of Deliver Workforce Solutions. She is driven by a lifelong passion for helping people build meaningful careers. A trailblazer who became the first female tool and die maker at General Electronic Electric, that is, I believe, GE, in Schenectady, New York. She turned her groundbreaking experience into a mission to empower others through education and opportunity. Catherine specializes in developing innovative employee training programs for the manufacturing, trade, and construction industries, helping businesses grow strong, skilled teams, grow strong skill teams. With advanced degrees in management, engineering, technology, and heart and curriculum and administration, she brings a unique blend of technical expertise and heart for human potential. Bridging the gap between education, industry, and community success. Kathy, I welcome you to Hivin and Vybin with Dr. Bibi. Thank you for having me. So, Kathy, can we start with asking you about your family? Where does this surname, family name, Shedwald, come from?
SPEAKER_02So my maiden name uh was Dagonzagay. So uh and so I uh have um Indian membership in a North American um Native American tribe. And the surname is on my husband's side of the family. Uh and so Shadwald comes from uh it's a German name, um, and it comes from the um the Black Forest of Germany.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Okay. So that's quite a mix actually. We are talking about okay. So can I ask you about more of your family, the family that you were born in?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So uh so while I am in French, my mother's side of the family came from France. Uh, my father's side of the family is from Canada. And like I said earlier, um so the my father's side of the family is also uh member of the Abenaki tribe in uh Quebec City, Canada.
SPEAKER_00Oh, but Quebec is French? Yes, so that's where the connection came between your father and your mother.
SPEAKER_02Uh actually, um family has um moved down from the Canadian um uh Canada, and uh so they actually met in Albany, New York.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, the world is so small, and somehow it just brings people together. Does great uh so and have you been to your your you know your native land and have you have you have you visited there?
SPEAKER_02Uh it's on my bucket list. Well, I've been up to Quebec City um when I was younger. Um I didn't get the opportunity to visit the um the actual reservation, so it is on my bucket list to go and do. It's a very small tribe, it's only 300 to 400 people that live on the reservation, and it's only um a little over, I think around 2,000 um people in the nation, in the Abenaki Nation.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh-huh. So you must be uh so do you follow any any of your indigenous uh practices?
SPEAKER_02Uh I do receive um the uh new they send out a newsletter all the time, which I you know read and keep up on what's going on. Um and but I my traditions are more from um the French, you know, the French, my mother's French um background.
SPEAKER_00Wow, such a mix of cultures, and I just love the mix of cultures when I hear about them. It it just tells me that there is so much uh you know evolution that happens when two cultures come together. One question I'll ask before I move on to your career, and that is how did this mix of cultures influence you growing up?
SPEAKER_02Uh in the area in Albany back in the day, um that there was a large community of French and a large um community of Italian uh people. So uh and my husband's Italian background too. So it is just that mix of culture that you know we all love and uh are fond of. Uh but they my uh parents went to high school, uh were in the same high school together. Um, so that's kind of how they got connected.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so there is Abenace, Italian, French. That's the mix that you were born with. Yep. All right, now I get it. Okay, so now let's move on to asking you about a little bit about uh how and why did you del how and why did you find uh deliver work for solutions?
SPEAKER_02So I spent the majority of my life in um the education world, but that world uh consisted of career and technical education. So we prepared students for college and career in their particular um uh technical fields. So that that could be nursing, culinary, auto, um, collision, um, compute, you know, computers, um, the all different kinds of career fields that I worked with. And I became a curriculum supervisor, became very interested in working with the different programs, and I helped them to become accredited in their industry, a net like a national industry accreditation. Um, so while I was doing that, I was always helping them to build those skill sets that were necessary for the students to become successful in their career of choice.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. And how did the whole thing begin? I mean, when you started your career, what were you, and how did you then find your way through uh to deliver work for solutions?
SPEAKER_02So through opportunities, um, because after the tool in uh Dime Maker, once I received that certification and my degree, um, it was a downturn in the economy. So that kind of throws you into your next part of your journey. And so that journey led me to all the years that I spent uh teaching and then as a curriculum supervisor and a director um for career programs and then developing curriculum. And then once I ended that project where I was working for a non-national nonprofit, um I was a project manager for three different program areas: aerospace, informatics, and automated materials joining technology. Um and then it was like, okay, so what next? So then I decided to at that point, I was like, okay, I think I should um start my own business uh instead of going out and doing more of what I've already done in the past. So that's when I started delivering workforce solutions and I thought, okay, well, let me just uh focus on the employee life cycle. Um because uh in particular in small businesses, they weren't focusing on the employee life cycle, they're focusing on their discipline that's they're passionate about, but they really don't have the systems in place um for it to be a successful business. So that's where I go back to my roots, which is education, and bring that into the fold and help them with their uh organizational structure. And then once you get the organization, you know, once you clean up the inside of your house, then you can uh showcase it for um top quality uh candidates to come and work for you. And whether that's you know, through an internship program, whether that's just outright recruiting, but um, I try to give the business the best uh opportunity to bring in um the best workers that they're looking for that match them, uh their needs, and then help them to develop those people through education, of course, and then um to retain them. So that's how I got to where I am with uh deliver workforce solutions. And then the latest projects that I've been working on have been in the training uh realm because what I learned with AI is that you can uh now expedite the time. When I was working on those first curriculums that I talked about, um it took a very long time to come up with the design of the curriculum because there was nine programs being developed at the same time. So there were multiple project managers, and there needed to be a standardized approach, there needed to be a uh format that we were following, and that design process took six months at best uh before we actually could get started and produce um AI really takes a lot out of the time element. So now I can go out and um produce training in a very shortened um time frame, and that also decreases cost for the employer.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Okay, so then uh the one question that uh comes, you know, that arises from what you're just saying is the role of AI. So if you're going to talk about that, it decreases time, what are the advantages that you have found with using AI, applying AI, and what are the disadvantages of applying AI?
SPEAKER_02Um, well, the the advantages I found is my research is shortened immensely. I don't have to just go out to different databases and look for uh you know what I'm what I have in mind to do. I can use AI and it goes across all the different um databases and brings me um the answers to my questions. And so it helps me to design that um that program. Uh so what I've some things I've done with it is design the standards, uh, because I always begin with industry standards, and a lot of times I'm working in areas that don't have industry standards. Uh given you know the aerospace informatics and automated materials joining technology, there were no standards for students. Another one I'm working on now is electronic waste. There are uh very little standards for employees. A lot of it is facility focused, but it's not necessarily employee focused. So it's helped me a great deal in that regard. Um, also coming up with the design of it. I know what I want to put in it, and then when I plug it into AI and it can give me responses uh to how to go about doing that, such as adding game of vacation. Um, it can actually, you know, put that into my framework that I'm working on. Um, it's not a one dot kind of thing. I'm asking for a lot of things. So I'm actually using that information to build what I'm trying to achieve. Um the negatives, um honestly, I can't say uh I guess maybe I I think you need to know what you are asking for. So you need to know if it's giving you the correct information. That would be, you know, a challenge if you don't know what you're if what you're asking for and you get information, you want it to be correct. So I check for, you know, what are the what are your um sources that you're using? I go back and check those sources because sometimes those aren't real sources um or you can't find it. So I like to make sure that I have my sources. Those are kind of some of the challenges that um you know that I've looked at as I'm going through the development process.
SPEAKER_00Right. So um you mentioned that it you have to know what you want from AI to be able to, you know, use what the AI is giving you and to know that you know what you're getting is really authentic and needed for your application. If let's let's start with when you first started using AI. And how did you then learn to put the how did you then learn to train your AI because that's one of the things that people struggle with.
SPEAKER_02Um so uh in my degrees I did a lot of research and I and I'm passionate about research. So for me, it was pretty intuitive to ask the right things. Um, and if you don't get back the right information, it's like okay, I didn't have my question correct. My daughter works in technology and she had to create prompts for the employees. And when I say, you know, it's pretty intuitive to me, I already knew what I needed to ask. I didn't have to have somebody create that for me. Um, so I think that could be a challenge if people are not um used to using a tool like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I'm asking this question because uh a lot of people are now trying to adapt to AI and are trying to, you know, start using applying AI in their work. And one of the challenges that I find most people face is how do you know which prompt will give you the right outcome? And so that's where you know what you just mentioned, uh a little study is needed, is what I understand from what you're saying. Um, you have to know what you really want so that your idea is is almost there, ready in place. You really know what your what your content should be, and then you go to AI and ask it to you know, sort of enhance it a little more or tune it down or you know, tone it to what you want. That is what you're really doing when you're applying AI.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And if it gives you something that's like it it's not answering your question or what you're asking it to do, then you need to go back and re, you know, come up with a better question that's gonna provide you with the right information.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. So what I do is uh when I'm doing my writings or you know, when I'm doing my content, I practically create everything manually. And then with that, I go to AI and I, you know, I ask it to tweak it here or there or make it more crisper or make it more, you know, whatever I need done to toning it up. That's what I really do. That's how I apply AI right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I'll give you another example. What I did um with this electronic um waste project that I'm working on, I start, you know, I start my developing my programs with a set of standards as I shared. Um and so some of the information for me is new. Um it's not something that I'm an expert in. So when I asked AI to develop the set of standards, technical standards, it gave me a set of standards. Now, of course, they needed a lot of work. Um, you know, they weren't in the right format. They, you know, I like to start with a verb, for example, and it it didn't necessarily do that. It gave me, you know, so I had to really work with what I what I got from AI. But then, because some of it is unknown to me, then I searched out a subject matter expert and asked for feedback and said, What am I missing? You know, what what are the gaps? Um, what is here that I don't need? Uh, so that I then I verified it and validated it with the subject matter experts to get um you know what I needed in the end.
SPEAKER_00Right. Okay, so before I start asking you about, you know, how did you bridge your bridge between management, engineering technology, and of course human potential, let me ask you first, what is the mantra of your leadership style?
SPEAKER_02Uh so I am the kind of leader that likes to um guide people um through a lot of questioning. So first I like to understand them, you know, where are they coming from to match my solutions to their needs um and how I would go about doing that. So again, it's a lot of the education.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So you first learn about the people and then you start working on working on them. What makes you a leader? How did you know that you are a leader?
SPEAKER_02I knew I was a leader because every time I was in a committee, I ended up becoming the leader. So then I started looking at that and you know, what skills did I bring that made me that leader? And first of all, I uh would tend to bring a structure to the committee. Um, you know, uh following an agenda. I I'm uncomfortable when it's not, you know, when we're not on the topic. And so an agenda will help to um provide that structure. Um it, but it can also be a collaborative agenda so that um it's not just my agenda, but it's everybody else has an opportunity to um provide their input into the agenda. So at least we're on target with what need what we need to complete for that particular uh meeting. So I I uh bring a lot of structure. Um I'm a systems thinker, so I'm always thinking systems um as opposed to emotional. Um so uh it keeps the meeting on focus and doesn't get off in the weeds. Based on someone's emotions. Otherwise, we're not going to get our jobs done, what we're there to accomplish. So we have our goals too. And that's an important thing. What are the goals that we're trying to meet? And how and then the agenda should, just like in a curriculum, the instruction should uh align to the uh standards, and a meeting should align to the goals that are set forth for the business. So that's how I knew I was a leader, as I always ended up in that position.
SPEAKER_00And when was it the first time that you, you know, that you rose to a position? How many years back was that?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I'm the kind of person that is bored easily. So I would uh, you know, so I taught for 15 years, but in teaching, I started out teaching machine shop, but then I moved to teaching um uh remediation to students using computer programs, some and then uh an occupational math and occupational science courses um became something that the state wanted to make sure that all of the career tech students had. So I, you know, became one of the trainers. I always took that leadership role. I always looked for that opportunity and took that leadership role, went into administration. Um, so then I was the curriculum supervisor, became the director of the CTE Resource Center for New York State. So I was always looking for that next opportunity because I was bored with once I kind of became proficient, then I was like, okay, well, what next?
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. So that's how it is. Uh when was the first time you realized that you you get bored very easy easily? Hmm.
SPEAKER_02That's a that's a good question. Um I would I would always start thinking, what's next? I mean, that really was uh so uh when I was teaching, then I was like, okay, well, um I you know I I thought I could I was uh uh talking with the principal too, and the position was created based on our conversations of what needed to happen at the uh school. So uh so then I took on that role and I was able to really help the teachers, you know, with their programs to improve them. Um so I think that was kind of maybe the point at which I I thought that okay.
SPEAKER_00So uh when you I'm going back to the point where you first you know, you became the tool and die maker and G E. Okay. How did that come about?
SPEAKER_02Well, again, I was like in high school, I was thinking, what am I gonna do? What am you know, what do I want to do for my career? And the guidance counselors were less than helpful. Uh so I started thinking, what skills am I good at? And uh and what opportunities are out there. And so then I decided, okay, well, I think I could do um at the time it was mechanical drawing, and I could get into General Electric's um apprenticeship for that. But that was a time uh in the uh, you know, in the world of evolution that mechanical drawing was going by the wayside and CAD was coming out. And they weren't hiring people for that uh apprenticeship. But they sent me a letter and said, we're interested if you would like to interview for a position in our machine shop apprenticeship. And so I thought, okay, well, what do I have to lose? It's something new. I hadn't thought about it, but I can surely give it a try. And so that's what I did. Um, I did the started the apprentice program, and it was actually my way of uh instead of going directly to college, I come from a big family, I have five brothers, and so you know, paying for our college wasn't an option. So going through an apprenticeship where the company would pay for it, and I would get my career that way, um, I thought was why not should try it.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. So that was a pretty, pretty practical and a very pragmatic approach that you took to your career and also to life. And did this tone continue all through your career? This pragmatic approach?
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's the what next. Um, because once I had uh achieved, you know, like one degree or one um career, then I was like, what next? And then I would, you know, and opportunities seemed to kind of jump out at me, and uh and I would say, oh, well, this is I think I could do that. So I would move on to the next opportunity.
SPEAKER_00Right. So when you joined GE as an apprentice, how many women were there with working with you?
SPEAKER_02So that's uh there were not a lot of women at the time. Um once you went through the training building, so you spent about 13 months going through uh training building, learning the basic machine tools that were there. Um, then you um you looked for a job in as an apprentice in one of the other departments. And so the department that I um ended up in is was large motors uh tool and die room. So other people ended up in, you know, RD or gas turbine, steam turbine, you know, but I really was more interested in the uh being a toolmaker or tool and die maker. So I was accepted into the into the um large motors uh tool room.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and how many women were there other than you?
SPEAKER_02I was the first woman, and then the there was another person, Kathy, who followed me, and then there were two guys, so there were four of us at the time, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh great. All right, so there were two Kathes and two guys. Fantastic. And from there, what happened next?
SPEAKER_02Well, it was an uh time when they decided to sell large motors, so we it was at the end of my um apprenticeship, but you you couldn't um there were no other jobs open at the moment. It was like a it was the early 80s. So we were sent back, the four of us were sent back to the training building, and I only had like six weeks left. So I finished the apprenticeship and finished my two-year degree in management engineering technology. And uh, so when I graduated, then I was laid off. Six months later, the apprenticeship program actually closed, and the rest of the people that were in the apprentice program at the time went to um uh oh another manufacturing, Waterverly Arsenal. Um, so they finished out their um apprenticeships there and stayed on um with Waterverly Arsenal.
SPEAKER_01And what about you?
SPEAKER_02I went into education as a machine shop teacher. That's when I started my teaching.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. And then you taught there for how many years?
SPEAKER_02Uh so I taught there for 20. Well, I was employed by them for 20 years. So 15 of it was teaching, and then I went into administration.
SPEAKER_00All right, great. Uh-huh. Wow. And then after that, you made your own the after that you founded Deliver Work for Workflow Solutions.
SPEAKER_02No, not yet. Then um there was a position as a um director of CTE Resource Center for um New York State. So I became the executive director of that, and our role was to help high need schools in the big five cities in New York. Um, it could be other schools too, but they were the main focus. And then also there was a training element, the uh professional development for teachers. So we uh put on seven conferences, uh, they were regionally based um per year.
SPEAKER_01Right. Okay, and from there?
SPEAKER_02Um from there I did um uh a smaller learning community grant. So I worked with um uh out in the um school improvement world, um, again in CTE, but helping schools. And then from there I became I was very interested in this project that was going on for the aerospace informatics and automated materials joining. And I knew somebody who um was working for the national organization. So uh, and there was an opening. The project had been going on for two years, and so I then left um New York State and uh went with this national uh company to develop the uh be a project manager and develop the curriculums. So that was at the end of those projects, it was like, okay, what next? I it was always what next? And that's when I decided I needed to go out on my own. I wasn't ready to retire, but I really um you know still wanted to, you know, work with businesses instead of schools. And uh, so that's when I made the leap to to do that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So um I can see the variations that has come through, and it has mostly come through with the prompt of what next? And what else can I do after this, or how how can I apply this somewhere else? So that is the thread that has actually you know dictated most of your movements and uh got you to where you are today. Uh you are right now bridging the gap between education, industry, and community success. How does community come into the picture?
SPEAKER_02Uh so the one project I'm working on right now with the electronic waste, the um uh the the target um for employee for the employees that we want to create the the training for um is the underserved communities. So it's creating employee training for that um that group of people, career changers, um you know, veteran population. Um so that's that's the community element that we want to bring into what we're doing. Right.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's talk about. I'm sure this whole journey was not smooth all through the time. Uh first you were laid off, that's the right at the beginning of your career, but then after that, what were the other challenges that you faced, or maybe even struggles that you faced?
SPEAKER_02Uh okay, let's see. Um in developing the curriculum, I'm gonna use that one as uh an example. Um when I um started that role as project manager, they had intended to create curriculum that was project-based for the curriculum. It was two years in, and um they still did not have that um focus. It was still teacher directed, very much so. And they were measuring that and they didn't know how to get to the project base. So that was that was the challenge was to figure out how how to do that. Um, because I have a very strong background in project-based and constructivism, um I, you know, it didn't come right away. The answer didn't come right away. But in continuously, you know, reflecting on it and figuring it out, I figured out that we could use um the engineering design process as our uh as the design of each project so that the students would be, it would be student-centered and it would lead them through um the different parts of the engineering design process from uh the problem or the scenario that was provided to the prototype that they ultimately designed. Uh, so then it was just um filling in the gap. It needed to be um integrated with the English, it needed to be integrated with math. So, and also again, they did not have the standards. So we started with the standards. So that was um an you know, I guess it was a challenge. I wouldn't call it a as much of a uh as a struggle, but it was a challenge. I guess another struggle um is always, you know, was always being um a woman and you know, in mostly male-dominated industries. Um so that always uh had its, you know, its challenges. Um, but I always felt that, you know, if I could work harder and prove myself, that I would be accepted. And um that worked for me all the time.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about the the women bit because that I think is one topic that is there in most women's minds, and especially if you're trying to uh reach a certain place or position in your career, then this does come up. So let's talk about that. And what were exactly the the challenges that you faced as a woman?
SPEAKER_02Well, let's go back to the tool room and being the first woman. So there were men that did not like the fact that I was in their space. Um and they used to use, you know, uh the tool room to change their clothes because at the time, you know, um men wore um aprons and they they came into work, they changed into their work clothes, and then uh so that all had to be changed. They had to um you know change in an area that was not um, you know, open. So that was one thing. And a lot of my men didn't like the fact that I was there, but I never um took anything personally. I think that's important because I think we get too easily offended, like, oh, they don't like me. And I never um I never focused on that. Uh I tend to be more objective to begin with, so and I tend to be not um, you know, not a drama queen. So I just would ask questions, learn, produce, and you know, once I was an you know an equal producer, um then they think differently. So I always turned it around that way.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Okay. But you mentioned us us, you mentioned that, you know, working harder to fit in. This is something that most women do. You know, most women find that you have to put in longer number of hours, um, be more present, do deeper, always be more smarter. There has to be, you know, you have to always keep exhibiting that you are better, and you are better, and you're and you have to continuously prove that you're better, give them evidence that you're better. How how did you do that? One question, first question, and the second question is what is it that can be done to make this situation easier for women?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, I think the options for women are much better than when I was going through this. Um, we didn't have the same opportunities, and you know, when I was in high school and I looked at the careers, there wasn't anything that I was really interested in. Um so uh, and my sister-in-law and I would have conversations about this too, and she said the same thing. Like she would have gone on to be a lawyer, um, but it wasn't that wasn't an uh opportunity that was offered her at the time. And that we're talking, you know, early 80s. Um so um, but I think that um I was always trying to learn. So I guess I didn't really look at it in a negative way, that I had to be better than them. I wanted to be good at what I was doing, and I wanted to learn it. So that was my motivation.
SPEAKER_00So, what I'm getting from you here is this that the learning part of it, the lifelong learning mental attitude that you had was something internal rather than external. Yes, you weren't you it was not the forces that was making you do it, it was you making yourself do it, and that is what eased the path, and also at the same time, it sort of made your path to grow better. Yes, fantastic. Uh, I believe in that too myself. I always believe that the competition is inside and not outside. It's all within you, you know, what do you do to better yourself? What is the legacy that you are going to leave behind?
SPEAKER_02Uh, I think the first legacy that I've already left behind is creating those three programs. Um, so they were for me a total of 67 projects that I was able to um, you know, lead, facilitate the development of them. Um most of them were um approved by the Library of Congress. And and that kind of changed, those were new programs that weren't out there um for the high school students before. Uh, and this was a national company, so they were um, you know, they were talking to they they were selling this product to uh many high schools across the country. Um so that um I'm very proud of that um that I was able to do for um the younger generation. Um and now I'm you know I'm really looking forward to um creating the same kind of impact through training for other businesses so that uh that would be my second legacy. Making things better for other for, you know, and especially like in electronic waste, that is uh an area where the impact is not just on creating a world-class uh uh workforce, but it's also making an impact on um on the world for their you know cleaning up cleaning up waste. So um I think that's important too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the greener planet is what you are actually working on, and that makes a lot of major difference for not only for us, but also for our next generations to come. Yeah. All this work that you've been doing, one mantra I got from you is that you keep learning and lifelong learning has been your one of your biggest guiding principles. What is it that sustains your you as a leader? What do you do to sustain yourself?
SPEAKER_02I think uh that um I've become very curious about many different topics, not just uh the work that I'm doing, you know, business-wise, but in the health field, you know, or um other areas that I just, you know, like I wonder about that. And then I'll start, you know, researching it. And so that um I think uh and especially in the world of technology, um that's that's an ongoing area of um uh you know, how do I do this? Or how do I do, you know, uh this program or that uh new thing, or how do I keep ahead of this the criminals that are trying to hack our computers and our finances and everything else?
SPEAKER_00Totally, totally agree.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What is it? Uh how how do you no, it's not what it is, how do you want my audience or my listeners to connect with you?
SPEAKER_02So they can find me on my website, and I have um uh you know a lot of blogs on there. Um, and then uh my website is deliverworkforce solutions dot or sorry, deliverworkforce.com. Um, and then also I can be found on LinkedIn.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic. Um Kathy, we have had such a beautiful conversation, and I believe one of the first uh guests that I've had who has actually been uh in the technology world and you know in the world that is so so male-dominated, is what I would say. So fantastic, you know, fantastic conversation. I just I just loved what we just discussed, and I hope my audience and my listeners will learn from you and will actually garner the nuggets of wisdom that you have just strewn all through the this last half an hour or so. Thank you so much for being with us. Well, thank you for having me. Uh, I really enjoyed our conversation.
SPEAKER_02Lovely. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01Bye bye. See you.