Intentional Leadership: How To Unlock Your Team

What does it really take to build a leadership brand that people trust - even when you're not in the room? In this episode, Richard Reid sits down with Skot Waldron, keynote speaker, executive coach, and author of "Unlocked: A 52-Week Guide for the Intentional Leader". Skot shares how his journey from graphic design and global branding led him to uncover a powerful truth: your leadership brand is built not in boardrooms, but in the millions of micro-moments that make up everyday life.

Skot challenges listeners to ask themselves: "Who is going to talk about you in 20 or 30 years?" It's a question that cuts through the noise of task lists and deadlines to reveal what truly matters in leadership - how you make people feel. From psychological safety and loyalty to intentionality under stress, this conversation is packed with insights that will shift how you think about showing up as a leader, every single day.

Key Takeaways

Your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. Every handshake, corridor conversation, and email is a micro-impression - either a deposit or a withdrawal from your brand account.

Authenticity, consistency, and differentiation are the three pillars of a strong leadership brand. Under stress, your true character is revealed - so do the pre-work before the pressure hits.

Loyalty is earned through sustained effort, not grand gestures. Companies that invested in their people before COVID weathered the storm far better than those who scrambled when it hit.

Ask five people five words they'd use to describe you. The patterns in their answers reveal your real brand - not the one you imagine you have.

Gratitude is a leadership superpower. Expressing genuine appreciation for others is nearly impossible without shifting focus away from yourself - and it builds lasting brand equity.

Episode Highlights

From Design to Culture: Skot reveals how working at a global branding agency exposed him to the chaos that internal dysfunction causes - and how that led him to pivot entirely into leadership culture development.

The Brand Account: Every micro-interaction is either a deposit or withdrawal. Skot explains why smell, tone, eye contact, and small moments matter far more than big presentations.

Stress Reveals Character: When we're stressed, we become "accidental" rather than intentional. Richard and Skot explore how emotional regulation is central to consistent leadership branding.

Psychological Safety in Action: A powerful story about a leader letting go of a long-serving employee - and how doing the relationship work beforehand transformed a painful moment into one of grace and mutual respect.

Unlocking Permission: Skot closes with his core message - that we put people in cages of expectation and rob them of who they were designed to be. True leadership means giving people "permission to fly."

Timestamps

00:00 — Welcome and introduction to Skot Waldron

00:52 — Skot's journey from graphic design to leadership coaching

06:51 — Defining brand: what people say about you when you're not around

09:35 — Consistency, the halo effect, and snap judgements

14:05 — Emotional regulation and how stress reveals your true character

15:48 — The COVID test: companies that did the pre-work vs those that didn't

18:02 — Skot's book "Unlocked" and the 52-week intentional leadership framework

23:14 — Differentiation: discovering your unique brand through asking others

27:32 — Gratitude as a leadership and brand-building tool

29:44 — Loyalty: why it's earned and why money alone won't buy it

32:18 — Psychological safety, Google's Project Aristotle, and fear of failure

37:10 — Hard leadership decisions and the power of relational pre-work

41:39 — "Who will talk about you in 20 years?" — Skot's defining leadership qu

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Business of Thinking podcast. This is the place for high achievers who want more than motivation. They want mastery. Here we skip the surface level talk and go straight into the psychology of high performance.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Hi and welcome. My name is Richard Reid, and you are with us on the business of thinking. And today I'm joined by Scott Waldron. Scott wears many hats. He's a keynote speaker, a coach, and an author. And he also delves into things like leadership branding and more on that a little bit later. But Scott, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Hey, Richard. It's good to be here, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Good to see you. Tell us before we go into all of that, tell us a little bit about your background. How have you arrived at the work that you're doing now? What have you done before?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Yeah, it wasn't. I did not plan on this. Uh, this was very accidental as opposed to what I really coach all my leaders and stuff to do is to be more intentional about life. This was not intentional. It's kind of fell, I fell into this. Um, I started my career in graphic design and branding uh from a marketing standpoint and graduated from a design school here in Atlanta. Um, moved up to Chicago, worked at a global agency up there for about seven years, and did a lot of great work for a lot of great clients uh all over the world. It was a lot of fun, learned so much about communication, about emotional. What I like to dive into is emotional branding and what ties people psychologically or emotionally to a brand, uh to a company, to a product, to a service, or to people. And then I made and you know, came back to Atlanta, became the managing partner of that agency and started our Atlanta office, grew that, uh, in the process began speaking more because I was trying to promote the business and get out there. And um, so I started doing that and speaking a lot on different brand strategy techniques and how to market yourself well and the injustices I saw out there in the world with you know, fly by night marketing companies that would come and say, Hey, we'll get you 400 leads by, you know, and a few of those, yeah. Oh my gosh, man, it's still out there. But um, so I I put out a lot of words, you know, I was beating the drum a lot out there about that. And people started asking me, like, hey man, do you do you speak like other places? And hey, if you come speak at this event, we'll like pay you. And I go, you'll pay me money to like talk. And he said, Yes, that's so what's good. That's cool. So so yeah, so I started doing that, and um more I started speaking, the more I loved it, and the more I got into it. And uh then I started realizing um, kind of in the midst of this, I was actually speaking at an event, and I was speaking with another guy that was talking on leadership, and you know, we talked afterwards, and he goes, Hey man, do you want to trade me services? Like, I need some help with some, I need you know, to brand a product I'm launching, and you can help me with that. And I'll you can join one of my cohorts, you know, we'll just trade. And I was like, sure, man, like whatever. I'm I'm down with trying stuff. I don't really need that leadership stuff because you know my people love me and I love them and we're all happy and we're cool. Like we're a design firm, like we're super cool, yeah, you know. So uh ends up I got into this thing two months later. I was like, dude, Richard, my brain blew up. I had no idea um of my blind spot. Yeah, it's just uh jokes to well to smooth, yeah. Yeah, man, it's like my people love me and I love them, but at the end of the day, I realized I was creating some pain and friction. I probably could have uh avoided um for for them and for me. Maybe my business could have ran smoother. There were some things I probably missed out on that I probably you know could have capitalized on better. There were some things like that, and so I was just like, this is crazy. So I was like, Well, this whole leadership thing, it's really just like personal brand development, but understanding how to communicate internally. I help people communicate externally, but wait, I could help people do this internally too. So I started switching my model. I said, listen, I'll do your brand strategy work because that's what people came to me for. I said, we're only gonna do that if we work on your internal stuff first.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Because Richard, here's what was happening, man. As a design agency, uh, we were on the receiving end, the reactionary end of all the internal turmoil from companies, turnover, shifting in messaging, wanting to make sure this PR message was out there versus this one. And I'm sitting there going, wait a second, like we were just deciding on this six months ago, and now you're shifting because we have a new VP of marketing, and now we've got like y'all don't y'all aren't on the same page here, yeah. And we are just on the receiving end of all your chaos. Yeah. So I said, we're going to okay. If I do your brand, we're gonna do your internal stuff as well. And so that's where that started coming into play. So really it was like 90% brand strategy, 10% internal culture development. And now it's like 98% culture development and 2% brand strategy that I do. I I farm out the brand strategy stuff for the most part, unless I really love you, Richard. And I'll you know, throw it over that too.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

But it's interesting how it was, isn't it? How these loose ends all come together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Yeah, man, it was crazy. So it's uh, but it's it's been it's been beautiful. I've I've loved doing it. Um the thing that I loved, and no knock to the design world because I love that world. I threw I get so like I get FOMO a lot when I go back up to our Chicago office or go visit people or see design out in the world. I'm just like, oh, I love that so much. I want to do that again. But to me, it was a it was temporary, you know, it was like launching a even if it was a longer-term brand campaign, maybe it would, you know, go on for 10, 15 years. Um, when I'm when I'm working with people and leaders, it was something that was like more permanent. It was like, hey, I'm gonna help you in this job role you have right now as a director or a manager or an executive of some kind, and you're gonna take the things I teach you here and you are going to apply them for the rest of your life at every other job, hopefully. Right? And even, but not even at work. You're gonna do this at home too. Like your spouse or your kids are gonna start. Oh, what's going on with you? Like you're a little bit different now. And I don't know, there's something about that that's really impactful. Um, that's really cool. So I love that part of it too.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Brilliant. And and you mentioned quite a bit about branding already. Tell us about the kind of thing that you're doing now, how that relates to branding.

SPEAKER_03 7:00

Yeah, um really when we talk about when I talk about branding, and this is becoming more and more common. I used to, when I started my talks on on leadership brand development, I would say, you know, define brand for me out there. And and people would be like, Oh, it's uh it's a logo, or it's uh, you know, the the way you look to a company or to a to a consumer or to customer or something. And uh people are getting, I think the gist of getting a little more educated now and about what uh what brand is, and as in essence, it's what people say about you when you're not around. Yeah, totally. So when I go to the barbecue, when I get off this podcast recording with you, Richard, you're gonna have a brand perception of me. All the audience is gonna have a brand perception of me. I'm gonna have a brand perception of you. It's it's kind of that. Like we have all of these micro brand impressions of different people that we've interacted with our entire lives. So if somebody brings up, hey, do you know Richard? And I'll be like, Yeah, I've talked to that guy, you know, a few times. He's been on my show. I've been on his show, and it's been it's been really, really good. It's actually, you know, so there's that information that we have communicated to each other that has created an impression of who we are to each other. That when I go to the barbecue this weekend, somebody asks me about Richard, I'm gonna say what I know about Richard. Now, the more I interact with you, the more data you receive about me and my brand becomes more defined to you. Uh, so you know, if we interact later on and all of a sudden I start throwing tables and I'm starting yelling at my kids, and you see me do that again, all of a sudden the brand perception changes a bit. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Uh, we do that as leaders all the time, though. And there's there's a couple of things that I talked about in the in the brand world when I was doing external branding and and working with companies that I also tie to the internal world. Number one, authenticity. People want to know that you're authentic. Number two is consistency. Am I consistent in the way I communicate my message and my brand to the world, right? So I'm one way on the podcast, and then I'm a different way on uh, you know, in my home or at the picnic or whatever, right? That consistency, people see it. And then number three is differentiation. How am I distinct and how am I showing up in the world that causes you to remember me and remember me in a way that's positive?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

We don't want to be the negative remembering, you know, like I don't remember you the other way. Exactly, or to be sort of a cucky-cutter thing where everybody's the same. Yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm interested to go into that in a little bit more detail. But before we do that, just on the consistency piece, you know, this is something I've noticed quite a lot with with leaders is that they're often very good in those sort of uh very high profile ad hoc situations, but then sometimes they let themselves down in those in-between moments on the face of it don't seem that important. So interactions in the corridor, you know, the quick telephone message or the email. Any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Oh, yeah, man. I I'd say it all the time. I'm saying every handshake, every instant message, you know, every glance I give at you down the down the hallway, whatever it is, every single micro impression is defining your brand. And it's what I call your brand account. So you're they're either making deposits into your brand account or withdrawals from your brand account every time I interact with you, every time I shake your hand, every time I talk to you, every time I get in the elevator with you and I smell a certain way. Honestly, smell is like one of the biggest uh you know senses. Like it it it helps people remember more than anything. So make sure you smell good. Um, but that's you know, the there's those types of things, right, that help us remember and help us emotionally connect to something. So I'll say this, right? I go into a restaurant, let's just pick a restaurant. Everybody's gone to restaurants, and we have you know restaurants we really like and restaurants we don't really like so much. The things that help me remember that restaurant are walking in and smelling what it smells like, okay, the atmosphere in which I am seeing what's going on, okay, the way that the seat feels when I sit down into it, the way that you know, the that I interact, the way I interact with the the wait staff that that comes and serves me and and helps me the taste of the food, obviously. Um, the whole experience from sight to hearing the music in the background to smelling to the taste to everything I'm experiencing is going to create a good brand impression or a poor one. And I'm either going to go back to that restaurant or I'm not, based on that experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:49

And people do the same thing. If I shake your hand, I talk to you, I listen to things you have to say, I experience you in a way that I'm either going to revisit the brand of Richard or Scott, or I'm going to not want to revisit the brand of Richard or Scott. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Now, if we're forced to work with these people, I'm forced to go to this restaurant that I don't really like all the time and eat the food that's the kind of whatever. I'm not going to be that enthusiastic. And then we worry why our people are not enthusiastic to come to work. It's because we're serving up mediocre food and a mediocre experience for them all the time.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

And it's interesting some of the examples you gave there. Just sort of thinking about how we relate to people and how we formulate these ideas of people's brands. I guess a lot of it happens intuitively and it happens quite quickly as well, doesn't it? We formulate these views quite quickly when we meet people.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

So fast. So fast. We all judge books by their cover, Richard. Everybody. Like, forget the mantra of like, don't judge a book by its. We all do it. It's innate. You know, it's a safety mechanism, isn't it? All of us do it. You know, it's it's our brains are lazy. Our brains want to conserve as much energy as possible. So psychologically, we shortcut everything. Um, you know, it's if you you've heard of it, the the halo and the horn effect. Yeah, yeah. Um, in psychology, they call it right. And it's it's the halo effect was the idea of when if I come up to you and and you look presentable, just let's just say visuals, like you look respectable, presentable in a certain way. I'm going to shortcut and assume you're probably gonna be well spoken, well-educated, you're probably gonna be delivered good product. Like I make some shortcut assumptions based on those things because my brain doesn't want to work so hard and figure out if you've done all these things. Um, but at the same time, if uh you come and disprove all my assumptions, the horn effect takes a fit into account, and I start blasting it to the world and saying, uh, yeah, this ain't this ain't what it was, what I thought it was before. So we make we make uh you know those those assumptions really early on and we do it all the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yeah, totally agree. And and with consistency, I'm also thinking about um emotional regulation because I guess when we're in a good place, we can be all of those fantastic things. But you know, when we're stressed, when we're busy, quite often those things go out the window or or we're not consciously thinking about those things and we slip back into bad ways.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Yeah, because who who are we thinking about the most when we are stressed or in pain? The selfish brain, yeah. All of us, man. We we all do it. It's kind of oh, I'm stressed. We become way less intentional, we become way more accidental, which under stress is when your true character will be revealed. And that's what we said. It's really easy to behave yourself when things are really smooth. You got lots of money in the bank account, your job's good, your kids are healthy, wife's marriage is great, like everything's really easy. But what happens when you're getting some pressure at work? Your job, you know, is in jeopardy, your kids and wife, and maybe your marriage is on the rocks, maybe your kids aren't healthy, maybe you know, there's all kinds of things that are going on in your life. Like that's some pressure, man. And that's um how we deal with that and how we handle that is gonna come out. Um now, obviously, we gotta give some people some grace when some of those things are happening, but you know, just understand that when stress hits, all we think about is ourselves. Um, most mostly to get get out of that pain. And so it's really important to do the work before those times happen. So here's here's a good example. So we all remember COVID, right? Remember the COVID thing? Yeah, so yeah. So that COVID thing. Um, it's really cool because I'd say it to anybody and everybody knows what it is. But um, it's this whole experience of you saw the companies and experience the companies with their the the that had done the work, the employee engagement work, the the the loyalty of the work with their internal audiences. Um where when COVID hit and they had to make the hard calls of either layoffs or paring down on something or shifting business models or whatever, the the people that stuck with them through that, or the people that even understood, they didn't love all the decisions that were being made, but were a little bit more understanding and would like, uh, well, okay, but I mean, I know I get it. I I y'all have been good to me. You know, it's like what we had those companies, and then you had the companies that didn't do the pre-work, that all of a sudden COVID happened, scrambling around. And we're saying, oh, no, no, no, we love you guys. Yeah, no, we're we're really good. We our values are this, that and they're like, wait, what? Since when? Yeah, yeah, like when did that happen? And so you heard a lot of that happening too. And so the the brand work that we do, it is a is a process. There's millions of little micro brand impressions that you're gonna be making throughout your life, and it's usually not the big grandiose moments that are gonna shape your brand as much as it is those millions of little micro moments. Because if I have, you know, a bunch of little micro moments and then I have a really big bad one, people are gonna go, hold on, this is inconsistent with how I believe you've been in the past. Maybe something else is going on. Hopefully, we get the benefit of the doubt, right? When we've done the pre-work. Uh so I think that there's some now, again, if all the pre-work we've done is negative, and then all of a sudden we have some really great, grandiose moment. Hey, y'all, here's a bonus, and everybody's like, Yeah, where's this coming from? Yeah. Yeah. What what's up with this? You know, it's people get skeptical. It's it's the same thing. So um that that's the way I look at it.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And a few moments ago, you mentioned um being intentional, and I guess this ties in with some of the themes in your book. Do you want to tell us a little bit about what you mean by intentional and some examples of that?

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Yeah, and intentional. So when I I wrote my book, um it's called Unlocked 52-week guide for the intentional leader. And uh that's because this intentional thing, it's really hard. You don't do it all the time because our brains aren't built to do that. It's just too much. It's too much. Uh, so but to be intentional when it's really important is are the moments that it's gonna, it's gonna really count. And again, doing that pre-work and what we do. So when I wrote my book, it was it was really written for that leader that is like, you know, I don't know if I have it in me to read like a 300-page research-driven, really thick, dense, you know, book. I didn't know if I had it in me to write one first of all, really. Let's just I'll just put it out there. I'll just put it out there. I was really intimidated. It was my my first meven years to get it done. And I was I was like, okay, I can't live vicariously through all these authors anymore that I was interviewing. It's like I gotta do it myself. Uh so I wrote it and it's really punchy. It's uh 52 weeks, so it's more of a guide. I've had a lot of teams use this as a kind of company book club thing or team dynamic thing where they'll they'll take 15 minutes at the beginning of their meetings on Monday and do a chapter, right? Because really it's built in this idea of knowing yourself, loving yourself, leading yourself. Um, so it's all about self-awareness. So there's exercises about self-awareness. How do we understand who we are? And it's formatted in there's a nice inspirational quote, either from me or somebody else, mostly from somebody else. Um, then there's a about a, I don't know, sometimes it's a half a page, sometimes it's a full page, commentary from me. And then there is application. So inspiration, information, application. And so you'll have an exercise in there that will, you know, you'll be able to reflect and then, you know, be able to kind of measure some some actions or some results by the end of the week. So each week is meant to be that way. Um to do this, you have to be intentional. This doesn't accidentally just happen, right? Um, and that's why the first chapter in the book's all about accountability. And there was actually a research study that was done uh where they had somebody stand at the bottom of a hill, look at the hill, estimate how steep it was. And then they found that when you stood at the bottom of the hill with somebody, the hill looked actually less steep than it did when you stood there by yourself. So there's this idea of accountability and partnership that I like that have people have throughout the book. Uh so that's why it worked really good in a team environment. Um, you learn a little bit about each other, you learn a little bit about yourself. Uh, but that intentionality piece is the leading yourself part near the end that really comes into taking action, deliberate action to do the things that are gonna build your brand in a way that's beneficial.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

So important, isn't it? Otherwise, as you say, we do things in autopilot. And I often talk about sort of individual meetings as well, that so often we turn up rushing from one meeting to the next, maybe having a vague idea of what it is that we want to deliver, but not having the intention about how we want people to feel. And it's so important in terms of of outcomes, isn't it? Not that we are objectifying people, that we partner with people.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

That is so cool. I mean, the aspect of how do I want them to Feel this is something that I did with companies all the time with their brand strategy work. Is when we're doing persona development, understanding who your target market is and your persona and who who you're going after. It was really important to understand at the end of the day, how do we want them to what do we want them to know, think, and feel about us? Want them to know this, want them to think this, and I want them to feel this. Because honestly, we are emotional beings.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

And we make illogical, irrational decisions. Animals at heart. Yeah. Based on emotion, man. Based on emotion. Um, so I love that you you you pulled pulled that out there too. And I think as leaders, um, if we thought about that, how do I want my team to feel at the end of this project? How do I want my team to feel at the end of this quarter? How do I want my team to feel at the end of this year? How do I want my team to how do I want this person during this one-on-one to feel at the end of this meeting? If we just thought about that, it would drive a lot of the ways we uh we conducted ourselves in those meetings or those projects or during the year.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Yeah, I think so. I think so. And and just going back to the the three different areas of branding you spoke about. Um, the third one was really about this idea of defining your brand. What is it that's unique about you, wasn't it? Do you want to tell us a little bit more about how maybe people can tease that out if they're grappling with that?

SPEAKER_03 23:30

That one's really interesting. Uh, because as as leaders, we don't really think about differentiation as much. I mean, I'm sure when we're applying for jobs, we're thinking about differentiation, and you should be. So I've I've done this a lot of times with people too that were you know looking for jobs. I actually launched a cohort during COVID to help people that had been laid off to help them find new positions and how do we define our brand? A lot of people struggled with this one. And people are scared as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

People are often scared about standing out from the crowd and and and get acknowledging and sharing with other people what's unique or special about them.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Well, I don't think they've done the deep work, I don't think they know. You know, they just kind of go, I don't know. Like, I'm an IT person that does IT stuff. I mean, how do I differentiate myself from all the other IT people that do IT stuff? And and I always uh, you know, talk to them about like you have something. Yeah. I mean, whether you're a real estate agent, you go to a networking event, and there's 20 other real estate agents, or if you are an insurance salesman, there's 20 other insurance salesmen, every every networking thing. And it's like, how do you differentiate yourself and stand out uh from those people? And honestly, one of the ways that I did it, do it, and way I did it with corporations is we asked. You asked the audience. So it's not scary, isn't it? But you I think you're quite right.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

It's it's the quickest way to learn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

It is. Um, why are we making it up? Why don't we just ask people? So there's a there's a really good exercise I'll do in one of my keynotes um about this. But if if you and some of my leaders, I'll do this too, where uh we start asking the people in the office. We ask the people, the team, we ask you know, the people we're interacting with, you know, what number one, this is a good exercise for all of you out there if you want to do this, if you haven't heard me speak yet. Um, and if you do hear me speak in the future, you're gonna do this again and it's gonna be fun. You'll get new data. But you're gonna ask five people what five words would you use to describe me? Just point blank. Give me so you should have 25 words. Uh at the end of that, you'll see some consistencies. Some words may repeat, hopefully they do. As a brand strategist, we love it when there's consistency and repeatable patterns. You should be able to just with five people. This is the exercise, just with five. You'll in five words, you'll start to see some patterns, which is really cool. Um, then you ask them, what unique contribution do I bring to our blank, to our team, to our project, to our company, to our leadership team, to whatever it is that you're wanting to ask about, whoever the audience is, you'd kind of phrase it in a way that uh they understand what you're talking about. But that unique value is really interesting. Now, sometimes people will give you answers that don't sound super unique, right? Or it'll be like you bring like precision to the projects we work on, and you're like, well, other people will do that too. But I think the way that you do it is what we're talking about to be a little bit more, I don't know, make it make, make sure that you understand the impact of what you're saying and what you're doing. Um, the way you do it's gonna be unique if it's that precision, the your technique, the the attention to detail or whatever it is, which I don't have. That's why I'm talking about it with somebody else. Um, but I think that there's some some really great stuff there that you'll get back from people. And then the third part of that um that I'll do and help people define their brand is it's all about gratitude and really helping people understand that when we are showing gratitude and thoughtfulness for others, we are not thinking about ourselves. It's almost impossible to be writing a thank you letter and only thinking about me. Because my brain is thinking about how's this person served me? How what am I grateful for for this person? And so there's an abundance mindset there um that really serves us well. And that um that expression of gratitude for somebody else, they can't help but to have some kind of good brand impression of you. Absolutely, and that intentional leadership behavior that will help drive and bring a little bit of a unique value differentiation to me and who I am.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

So totally agree. We we often take people for granted, don't we, and and and make them feel unappreciated. I mean, there's a couple of things that sort of come up for me as you were talking through those those different points there. One is about how when we recognize our brand, when we recognize that the positive things we bring, often we gravitate towards those more, they become more consistent behaviours. Uh and then the other thing I was thinking about was that there's a there's a chat called Zat McCurio, and it talks about this idea of noticing. How as a leader, when we we do exactly what you've just described there, we show gratitude, we highlight to people how some of their unique qualities are contributed towards an outcome, how that engenders more uh engagement from people, more loyalty, people go above and beyond, all the kind of things that I guess are useful within a work environment.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah, I think that when I mean you said another key word to me, the the term loyalty is so critical. There's a um I have a graphic that I used years ago that I developed for companies talking about um how to, you know, the stairway to brand heaven or brand hell. And you you you climb that stairway, not instantly. It's not like you jump from floor one to floor seven. It's floor one to floor two to floor three, all the way through, and how we do those things. And it it goes this whole, we all, I mean, we all want loyalty in our lives. It is the utmost thing that we want from our friends, from our spouses and family members, from our employees, from our the companies, from you know, when we're buying things that like we want there's loyalty back and forth or customer loyalty, but there's also company loyalty. Um, when I am engaging with somebody in some way, there's there's a I want loyalty because loyalty is the ultimate thing that we get and that we want from somebody. And when we have it, we can make mistakes, Richard. That's what's cool about loyalty. If there's a restaurant, that restaurant that I went up that I love up the street, they I've been there so many times and I love that place so much, and they always treat me so well that that this one last time we went in there, they messed up my pizza order. Like it just wasn't it wasn't what it normally is. It was something was off with it, but I'm loyal. Yeah, so the relationship with stuff. Yeah, yeah, I I'm not gonna be like, they're dead to me. I'm out, you know, like that seems yeah, like I'm just being like, hold on, something was something was off this day. What what was going on? Hey, can y'all switch it and they're like, oh, sure. And so they made it right. But that loyalty is what withstands the tough stuff, yeah. Um, it it goes beyond anything that we could ever do for anybody, and that's why when we get that loyalty with our employees, with our co-lo colleagues, with our boss, with whoever, that's huge, man. And you don't get that instantly. People almost want it instantly, uh, but you don't get that. And there's there's a lot of you know, companies that go around, they're like, Yeah, people just aren't loyal these days, you know, you don't have no loyalty, they're just from here to here to here to there. Like, well, how how hard have you worked at building loyalty? Because I'll tell you right now, there are four pizza restaurants up the street. Yeah, and I always go to the one because of the relationship we've built and because I'm loyal to that one. If you if you build it and you build a situation or relationship, people will stay quote unquote loyal to you. They may get even a higher offer from somewhere else, right? Now, if it's ridiculously high, they'll probably go. But I'm just saying, if if there's some loyalty there, they're just gonna be like it. Everybody thinks it's transactional, it's always about money. I mean, COVID did that a lot too. People are throwing money everywhere when they're doing the hiring thing back. But um it yeah, it wears out, man. The money thing, the transactional thing is only service level, it doesn't it doesn't stick around.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

And and and I guess some of what we're talking about here is he's sort of in the realms of psychological safety, isn't it? That I know I can count on you, you know you can count on me.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Psychological safety is huge. It was uh, you know, in Project Aristotle, Google did that whole thing with you know 150 plus teams or whatever, and discovered the psychological safety was the number one indicator of a high performing team. And uh that that was really interesting. I was working, it was it I was working with uh a client of mine and um operations officer. And during our sessions, it became very apparent that failure was not an option for this person. Now, they had learned that failure wasn't an option because of how they were raised, military background, family. Um, very, you know, in the military, in battle, failure leads to death. Yeah, you can't mistake it leads to it, it's it's it's hard, right? So failure, and then but what happens is, and I've seen this happen with multiple military families, is that the children take on that mentality of failure is not an option because it's so ingrained in the the person of service and and what they did. Um, but what in the world of business, if we make a mistake, generally people aren't gonna die. Now we're talking about construction, we're talking about other things, safety measures, sure. But uh the world of business, whatever we do, generally nobody's gonna die. Um doesn't mean we shouldn't take it seriously, but there's some things there. The failure, failure is not an option thing came you know as a result of all this, the thinking and process and what was going on there, and it started to spill out on all the all the other people. Um, but the whole thing was psychological zapy coming back around to that. I'm I'm getting there, Richard. I promise, but it was this whole idea of she had this mantra of failure's not an option, and probably led in a way that her behavior was like failure is not an option, like that, and then put out a message to everybody saying, Hey, everybody, we need to fail. It's okay, we need to fail fast, we need to fail hard, we need to, you know, failure is actually progress, and starting to put that message out there like that. And I read it and I was like, interesting. So you're you're you're putting this message out there. Is it do people believe you? Yeah, there's a there's a gap, isn't there in terms of consistency and authenticity? Yeah, maybe, and and I don't know, maybe she leads in a in a in a brilliant way that there is some people do believe her. But I'm just saying, when we put out messages like that as leaders, do people believe us when we say them? Because if we create an environment of psychological safety, meaning we can fail without fear of reprimand and and other things, do people believe that, or do they believe that we believe failure is not an option and that you're saying we can fail, but I don't think you really believe that we can fail. And so I'm really still freaked out and scared and I'm brought up kind of tiptoe and I'm not gonna take risks and I'm just gonna preserve myself because that's what we do. Yeah. Um, yeah, that I mean that's that's a big piece of it for sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

I I think so. And you see it a lot as well with sort of mental health issues in the workplace as well, that you know, companies make a big thing about, you know, we really support people's mental health, but but people are wary about coming forwards because there are those obvious inconsistencies. Is this gonna be held against me?

SPEAKER_03 35:56

It's so scary, man. So scary. And and it's really and I and I I empathize with both sides of the scenario when we talk mental health. And I'm not an expert on it. Um, but I I think that when we when we talk about so I've I've listened to both sides, I've coached individuals on both sides, you know, employees that are struggling with mental health, that are struggling with you know, executive functioning or understanding how to do different things or stress or burnout or um or diagnose mental health issues that they they that they've had. And then bosses who are empathetic to those individuals, but also need to get the work done.

unknown 36:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

Even if you mean well, yeah. I it it's hard, man. I don't know, yeah, I don't I don't envy either side. I, you know, the people struggling on both sides, it's it's it's tough. Um, but the element of psychological safety has to be there. You can still build the brand on both sides for what it is. Um, and I think that people are scared of making hard decisions. I think if you've done the brand work up front, the hard decisions, people will give you a little bit of grace, right? Because I've I've had leaders too that'll come to me and they're like, Oh, I gotta let this person go, Scott. I don't know. They've been here for 23 years. They've got, you know, a husband that's out of work right now. They've got four small children. I I don't know. It's gonna be really, I don't know what to do. I'm so I almost like, my first question is have you done the work? Have you have you've been working with this person for 10 years? They've been here for 23. You've been working with them for 10 years. Do they believe that you are for them? Right? Because right now you're just you're kind of worried, you're worried about them, but you're kind of worried about the relationship and the fallout and you know, all the stuff's gonna happen. Um, but if you've done the work prior, I'm not saying they're gonna be happy that they were let go.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

No, no, but it'd be a different outcome, different dynamics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

It's different, man. Um, if I feel you're for me, I and it's really interesting what happened with this story. Was she upset? Yes. She was upset, she was desperate. She was saying she was kind of blaming other people, she was blaming the the organization. Um, she got really, you know, she was crying for like an hour while they're cleaning out her office, like the whole time, just saying, please don't do this, like desperate, yeah, desperate, hard. Um, and then on the way out the door, they this other person, the the leader walked her to her car um and gave her a hug and you know, was just like, you know, I don't know if that's appropriate, HR, you know, what not, but we wanna go there. We won't go there. Uh, I don't know legally if that's okay. But the person looked at them and said, I I understand. You know, thank you for for helping me all these years. I really appreciate it. And it was just that final breath of just like acknowledgement of the thank you still or the I appreciate everything you've done for me and I understand. That was like and that hit hard. Um, and this leader, it was amazing for that leader to hear that. Uh, and that shows me that this leader's done the work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

I think that's that that's a really powerful story. What um when when you're working with other people in your your space, I mean, the realm of intentionality, the realm of the brand build, what I mean, I talk about it, my whole language is around branding just because of my background. Um how do you how do you think about that? How do you think leaders think about that when you're talking to them?

SPEAKER_01 40:03

I I think the danger is a lot of leaders think it's about those those big moments. Really the reverse of what you've just described. You know, you've you talked about sort of the the consistency, and even if it's small things, how they all add up. So I think the risk is that a lot of leaders still believe it's about those big moments to shine. But actually, in terms of credibility and trust, it's it it is that consistency. It's it's how you greet people, whether you show interest in people, all those those types of things. And I think the biggest challenge really is that you know, a lot of leaders are coming from a good place, but it's it's just the sheer volume and the pressure of work means that actually it's it's not the first thing that occurs to me in those moments. Things happen quickly, they're very much focused on outcomes. Um, and and people often unfortunately get objectified as part of that. So it's really about going back to, I guess, one of the things you mentioned earlier, this idea of servant leadership. You know, yes, absolutely having your outcomes and your objectives, but but almost um thinking in terms of what do people need from me? How do I elicit the best response from other people while still achieving the things that I want to achieve? And I think that's really starts with how you make people feel.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

How do we make them feel? Because I will tell you right now that I will remember in 20 years how you made me feel, but I probably won't remember exactly what you said. Exactly. Unless it was exactly really insulting or really damaging, right? It's but I'll vaguely remember. I'll be like, yeah, I said something like this, or it was like this, or whatever, but I will never forget how you made me feel. Yeah. And that is going to last a long time. There's another little thing I want leaders to do when I when I talk with them is to reflect on um somebody that's been really influential in their lives. Who has created the biggest impact on you in your life? It could be a teacher, mentor, parent, sibling, coach, I don't care, you know, who that is, um, colleague at work or past boss, or like who's created that impact on you? And they're like, oh, it was this teacher from fourth grade, or it was this my the my first boss that I ever had when I was, you know, 16. And or it was this colleague that I worked with at my first job. Um, they really were with me, they really helped me kind of through this really hard time I was having, and like those things, and I'll and I'll be talking to people, and this, you know, some people be like 20, 30 years back, they'll remember this person.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah, and people light up when when they do reflect on those people. It shows you the impact it has, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:40

It does. And I say this is the punchline is I'll I'll look at them and I'll go, who is gonna talk about you in 20 or 30 years? Powerful. Yeah. And I want them to reflect on it because I say that the things that you do right now with this person, they're gonna remember for 20 or 30 years. Or they're not. You're gonna completely go away. You're gonna remain in some old filing cabinet in the back room of their brain. Um, and they may not ever remember you again. That's a brand thing, right? Are we creating differentiation? Are we creating memorable moments? Um, and and and whatnot. And do we want to be remembered in a good way or a bad way? You're gonna be remembered in some way, probably. So good or bad, you know. Um, think think about that too. But that's that's a big moment for a lot of people, is because we're so I think, like you said, we're so wrapped up in the um what Chris McChesney from 40X says, the whirlwind, you know, the whirlwind of life, the whirlwind of work that it's just the daily task, the checklist, the momentary stuff that we don't think about the longer term lasting impressions that we leave behind.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

And it's massive, isn't it? Yes, work is a big part of people's lives. And if we can make that a little bit More bearable and enjoyable, not only do we get more loyalty from people, but you know, people are happier and healthier. So the whole array of reasons to to want to try and do this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

We have a huge responsibility as leaders, and that leader isn't just to them at work. Uh I'm not responsible for you at home, but the way I create an environment and a culture for you at work is going to impact your home life. Yeah. So if we can maybe take that into consideration too, and some leaders just won't care, but their behavior will also show that they don't care. Yeah. Um, the ones that do, you'll be able to tell. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

So we one way or another, we create a ripple effect, don't we? For better or for worse. We do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

We do for sure, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Scott, it's been absolutely fantastic. And we could probably go on for another hour, but we're coming towards the end now. Any final thoughts that you want to share with people?

SPEAKER_03 44:58

I I love the idea of people unlocking who they are. And I know the unlocking thing gets like thrown around a lot, but the injustice I'm trying to fight is that we don't give each other permission to be who we were designed to be. I have an idea of who I want my spouse to be so that I'm comfortable in life. I have an idea of who I want my employees to be and how I want them to act in order to get the things done that I want them to get done. So I put people in boxes and I try to force them into ways of being and ways of working and ways of acting and behaving that are what meet my expectation. And when they don't, then I'm disappointed and et cetera, et cetera. Um, now we have to have realistic expectations and we have to, you know, put people in places where they can thrive and things. Uh, but when I don't give you permission to be the introvert you are, or give you permission to be more the adaptive thinkers, what I call you, um, instead of like getting things done immediately when I ask you to get them done. Because we we reward action, we don't reward thinking as much as I think we should. But when I don't give you those that permission, then I just think you're broken, or I think our system's broken, or I think that you can't work here or last, or you could create problems for me because it's not how I do things. So when I can when we could give each other permission, there is so much there. Yeah. I feel like we're putting each other in cages of like work and expectation. And the whole idea being unlocked is that I can fly, is that I can be who I was designed to be. I have permission to do that. Wouldn't that be amazing? Like if I was working with this boss that was like, hey, you have permission. Once you have that permission, and I feel like I have permission and I can do my thing and be who I want to be. Like, that's amazing. That freedom is amazing. And uh that's where people thrive and grow. And if we can give each other that permission, all the better.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Amazing. Scott, it's been brilliant. Thank you so much for today. Love to have you back on at some point in the future. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

Yeah, man. Thank you, Richard. Appreciate it. This is the business of thinking. Mastery doesn't end here. See you in the next episode.