The Mountain West Firearms Podcast

Rights by Zip Code: DOJ, Debanking, and the Real Cost of Gun Ownership

• Ken Carroll • Season 1 • Episode 4

Share episode

In this episode of the Mountain West Firearms Podcast, Robert Wareham breaks down how firearms laws, enforcement, and business realities can change dramatically depending on where you live—and why that matters for both gun owners and the industry.

The discussion begins with a major development at the federal level: the Department of Justice’s creation of a Second Amendment–focused unit within its Civil Rights Division. Robert explains why this structural shift could have real consequences for state and local practices, especially the slow-walking of concealed carry permits and regulatory pressure on lawful firearms businesses. Drawing on personal experience in North Carolina, he illustrates how delays and bureaucratic tactics can quietly undermine constitutional rights without public fanfare.

Next, the episode looks at holiday firearms sales and NICS background check data around Black Friday. While year-over-year numbers are down from historic highs, demand remains strong in key product categories, and the industry continues to adapt by spreading sales activity to reduce system strain.

The conversation then turns to “debanking”—the ongoing issue of financial institutions denying or restricting services to firearms-related businesses. Robert outlines how banking discrimination affects everything from merchant processing and insurance to leasing property, and why recent findings by federal regulators confirm what gun shops have long experienced firsthand. He argues that debanking doesn’t just hurt retailers; it raises costs and limits access for everyday consumers.

The episode also covers a significant Supreme Court ruling unanimously rejecting Mexico’s lawsuit against U.S. firearms manufacturers. Robert explains why this decision reinforces the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) and why it will shape firearms litigation and “lawfare” strategies for years to come.

Finally, the show rounds out with quick updates from around the country, including California ammunition regulations, proposed firearm legislation in Florida and Michigan, hunting news, and federal efforts to restrict lead ammunition. The episode closes with a recap, a reminder to support local FFLs, and updates on upcoming training opportunities at Mountain West Firearms.

Introduction:

You're tuned in to the Mountain West Firearms Podcast, where honest talk and expert insight meet the world of shooting, training, and responsible firearm ownership. Let's dive in. Well, hello there.

Robert Wareham:

This is Robert Wareham with another Mountain West Firearms Podcast, where we keep it grounded in training, equipment, industry reality, and the policies that shape the shooting sports industry. Hey, here's a quick note. I'm not your attorney, even though I am an attorney. I'm not your attorney. This isn't legal advice, and law is very wildly by state. So if you've got a real issue, talk to a qualified counsel in your jurisdiction. Also, if you like these weekly What Changed, What Matters episodes, share it with a range buddy, and leave a review. It helps us more than you think. Well, hey, if you've ever thought, man, it feels like the rules change depending on what zip code you're standing in, this episode is for you because this week we're talking about three things that hit gun owners and firearms businesses right where we live. One, the Department of Justice is standing up a Second Amendment focused unit inside its civil rights division of the Dem uh Department of Justice. Two, the NYX checks, what they do and what they don't do, and what November and Black Friday week actually look like. And three, financial access, the debanking problem, and why it matters whether you're buying a new optic or trying to keep your gun shop's merchant account alive. We'll also hit some fast moving state fights, hunting headlines, and one Supreme Court decision you'll hear referenced for the next decade. So let's get into it. Let's start with big headlines out of the National Shooting Sports Foundation government relations updates. You know, before I go on, let me mention National Shooting Sports Foundation is a great industry group for the firearms retailer and range industry, and they keep us up uh up to date and informed on what's going on and things that impact us. And I pass along many of the things from their government relations update to you here in these podcasts. But the Federal Department of Justice is establishing a Second Amendment's rights section inside the civil rights division of DOJ. Now, whatever your politics are, that's a structural change with real-world impact because civil rights is typically where DOJ enforces constitutional protections as civil rights. Historically, that division has enforced laws around discrimination, voting, housing, policing, similar civil rights work. You know, this is where you hear that the federal government's suing over trans policy or over this or DEI and that sort of thing. But you know, our firearms rights, our gun rights, our Second Amendment rights have often been relegated to almost a second-class right, um, and they really shouldn't be. I mean, it is just as much a right as your freedom of speech, your right to due process, your right against uh self-incrimination, but we see constant attacks on this very fundamental right um by regulators and by uh government agencies. So the uh uh NSSF has summarized this as a coarse correction and says DOJ is going to emphasize enforcement against state and local practices like slow walking concealed carry permits, weaponizing licensing schemes, lawfare aimed at gun businesses, and attempts to work around the protection of lawful commerce in arms act. And the messaging comes out publicly and it lines up with the new unit is described as focusing on state and local policies that impose excessive fees, long permitting delays, or broadbands that conflict with Supreme Court decisions. Now, this really hits home here locally for us. Um Mountain West Firearms is located in Buncombe County in western North Carolina. And um I will tell you, I I moved to North Carolina back in early 2024. Uh I needed a concealed carry permit here. So I went through the process. I took the class, I went down and got fingerprinted. I think this all occurred in I think it was like August, September, August or September of 2024. And I did not receive my concealed carry permit until I think it was February of 2025. That's right. It went from August to February. Now, when I called to inquire about it, they said, well, we had to redirect resources because of Helene. And of course I lived through Helene like everyone else, so I thought, all right, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that. But I found it interesting that when it kept dragging on, I made a freedom of information request, a public records inquiry of the sheriff's office asking for the dates when all these applications got filed. And w, you know, I suppose it could be a coincidence that my permit arrived within a week or two later, but I doubt it. My wife's took even longer, and she applied at the exact same time. So this is the kind of oblique um bias that uh DOJ hopefully is going to go after. They're gonna come in here to look at it. You know, the interesting thing is I had a customer come into the store this week. He had just taken our concealed carry handgun course, which, by the way, we're now offering second Saturday of every month starting in January. So just know you can tell your friends, you can tell your spouses, your girlfriends, your boyfriends. There's a concealed carry handgun class the second Saturday of every month starting with the new year at Mountain West Firearms. And uh it runs from 8:30 to 5 o'clock at night. Uh we shoot midday, but uh I have handed out course surveys to all of the students who've attended it so far, and they have been unanimous in their praise of the instruction and the materials and just the overall experience. I mean, literally, almost without exception, everybody, Mark, strongly agree that it was a good course, the facility is a good facility, they're comfortable. In fact, we've got a couple of additional tables in this week so we can spread people out a little more and give them a little more room. But that's just an aside. But this gentleman attended our class about a week ago, went in the following week, got his fingerprints done at Buncombe County, and was told by the clerk that he should not expect his permit until next March. Now, you might think, well, okay, that's four months. The problem is the state statute says the sheriff is to issue that permit within 45 days. But there's a little clause that they use to squirm around this. It says within 45 days of the file being complete. Well, who is unilaterally in control of that file being complete? The sheriff's offices. If they're going to require a mental health clearance, and they don't ask for that clearance for four or five weeks after the application is submitted, that just adds four or five weeks to the time when the permit isn't there. And this generally happens, and I've heard the same thing about Charlotte Mecklenburg. Mecklenburg County, same way. They slow walk concealed weapons permits. And the way they do it is by not having your file be complete within 45 days. So my own personal hope is that DOJ will take a look at North Carolina and some of these pockets, because that's what they are. They are pock pockets. We have a liberal sheriff in Buncombe County, they have a liberal sheriff in Charlotte Mecklenburg County, and we all know from the headlines what's been going on down in Charlotte. If there's ever a place you need to be carrying a concealed handgun, it is in Charlotte. So we know what's going on. I by comparison, I've been told that if you live in Henderson County and you go in and you apply for a concealed carry permit, that you will have that permit within a matter of a couple of weeks. Now, how do you how do you justify the difference? Is Henderson County doing something better or are they doing something sloppier? Why is our elected sheriff in Buncombe County dragging his feet on issuing concealed carry permits? Well, I'll get off my soft uh uh soapbox, but you when rights are denied, it's not always in a big dramatic press conference. You're not gonna see the sheriff come out and say, well, we're gonna slow walk these, we're gonna make it hard to get. No, it's really sometimes a death by a thousand small cuts, if you will. So, you know, you apply for a permit, you don't get it for four months, or you wait so long for a permit that the hunting season is over, you comply with every rule, but the rules are designed to be expensive and slow. Um a retailer like us gets treated like a villain, buried in paperwork, threatened with civil suits, or squeezed by regulations that don't exist in other industries. Now, here in North Carolina, we actually are fortunate. We do have a state law that says that uh municipalities and counties can't impose extraordinary zoning controls on firearms-related businesses. And so that does give us uh a level of protection there. So just because an office exists doesn't mean it becomes effective overnight. Um, it's a good step in the right direction. Uh enforcement will depend on the leadership over it, the priorities and litigation strategy. The courts are going to matter, obviously, because they enforce these through the courts, and if they land in front of a liberal judge, the liberal judge can ignore it. And it can take, you know, months, if not years, to get relief on some of these things. Um, so that's something to keep an eye out. So that's the DOJ side. How about uh holiday shopping? What's going on with the national insta-check system? Are we seeing an increase? What are we seeing? Well, the truth is NSSF reports that FBI completed 530,156 firearms-related background checks for the week leading up to an ending on Black Friday in 2025, and that was with 165,183 NICS checks on Black Friday alone. Uh the same summary notes that down, that those numbers are down from 2024's comparable week, and the industry uh has tried to spread doorbuster demand across the whole week to avoid overwhelming the system. In other words, they start their Black Friday sale on Monday, like so many. I mean, everybody's trying to get a jump on the next person. Okay. Uh, in terms of overall checks for the uh entire month, um, there were 1.4 million roughly checks done for firearms transfers, and uh the FBI, you know, because checks are used for different things, NSSF adjusts those. The FBI numbers are actually a little higher, um, but NSSF goes in and pulls out the checks that aren't for um uh firearms transfers. Um all right, so the numbers are down. Uh even with a year-over-year decreases, there are still d strong demands. Part of the reason for this is the baseline from prior years was historically high, and I think we all know why over the prior four years uh people were more interested in buying firearms. And consumer demand moves in waves based on politics, court decisions, local events and the like. Um certain product categories stay hot. Um optics, suppressors in the freer states, and microcompacts and training ammo uh when available. So all in all, the industry appears to be uh in good shape. So let's move on now to a topic uh well actually a term you may have heard called debanking. And it's something that gun shops and gun owners have dealt with for years. It's banking discrimination. Um and so they came up with the term debanking. And there's been claims recently, most recently, by Jamie Dimon of J.P. Morgan Chase that major banks don't discriminate. And uh the NSSF says, Well, we've got the receipts, we know that isn't true. And uh in my own personal experience, uh I'm not gonna name my local bank, but it is a local bank. And uh one of the bank officers showed up in the store the other day and I said, You here on your lunch hour? He said, No, I'm here on official business, and proceeded to sit down and ask me questions about how we do business and who we sell to and things like that. And the ending question was, did you uh who who did you accept a check from in a specific amount on a certain date? And it happened to be from an LLC, because I have professionals that come in and shop with us, and sometimes they pay for them uh with their business checks. And I thought it was very curious. Uh I thought it was almost invasive. And um with the new administration, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency has actually come out and made preliminary findings from a review of de-banking activities at the nine largest national banks that it supervises. That includes JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America City, Wells Fargo, and others. And Reuters News Agency summarized the Comptroller's report as finding that large banks had policies from roughly 2020 to 2023 that limited or denied services to certain, quote, politically sensitive, end quote, or disfavored industries. And firearms were explicitly among those categories. So, well, you look at that, you don't have to imagine what that period from 2020 to 2023 was. That was the Biden administration. And obviously they're looking at this, and if the comp troler, you know, auditors come in and say, who's this person? And it's something they don't like, they're afraid, well, they're going to do something to us, and so they just the banks take the what they view as the easy way out, the least risk um way out. And you might ask yourself, okay, how does this affect me? Why, as the average um gun owner, should this uh uh affect me? Well, because B debanking hits the shooting community in very normal ways. Um A. A new shop like ours maybe has a more difficult time getting a line of credit. Uh merchant services get re-evaluated, rates jump, or accounts get closed. I will tell you that when we opened Mountain West Firearms, our store, uh, we were confined to a very select few uh credit card processors that would actually do business with us. Um the f once you have the word firearms in your name, they don't want anything to do with you. In fact, I recently tried to set it up so I could accept Venmo payments, and they initially approved it because our our formal corporate name is actually Mountain West Group. But when I told them our trade name was Mountain West Firearms and put in our website, they came back and said, No, we don't do business with you, and your account has been frozen. The other thing is insurance and payment processing become a maze. We attempted to rent a different location along Charlotte Highway back in early 2025, maybe even 2024, and uh we had reached a sh handshake deal with the landlord, uh someone local, uh, that we would rent the space. And when after about a week we didn't see a lease come, uh I reached out again and was informed by the landlord that his insurance company had said they would cancel him for all of his properties if he rented to a firearms store. So that's the kind of stuff you run into. And that's really when Jennifer and I concluded we were gonna have to buy our own property and build our own building. And and the blessing in that is it helped us realize, well, if we're gonna do that, we might as well build a range. We were fortunate to find our new building where we're at now, where the landlord was not only um not adverse, but he was receptive to having a firearms store there. So uh that problem sort of solved itself. But all of this boils down to the fact that it makes it more expensive to do business, it makes it more difficult to do business, and that doesn't benefit the uh firearms retailer or the customers because it makes it so that uh the prices of things go up. You know, you look at it and you say, well, banks d legitimately have to deal with compliance fraud, chargebacks, regulatory pressure, and the like, but when the policies are written so broadly, uh such as we don't bank firearms-related businesses, that's not case-by-case risk management. That's an industry level exclusion that I'm hoping this administration is going to address through its appointment to these very powerful commissions. So regardless of where you stand politically, if a lawful, heavily regulated industry can be excluded because it's controversial, stop thinking about it. Any lawful industry in one cultural shift uh could be also debanked and deprived of banking services. And in this day and age, particularly with e-commerce and the like, uh, that can be fatal to a business. Okay, let's shift gears now to the courts. The United States Supreme Court ruled a while back that uh Mexico's lawsuit, Smith and Wesson Brands Incorporated, versus Estados Unidos Mexicanos, um, well, they just rejected it unanimously. I mean, think about this. We've got a very, very uh, shall we say, clearly divided Supreme Court between liberals and conservatives, yet when the nation of Mexico attempted to sue one of our firearms manufacturers, by the way, by an American law firm who really was just soliciting this business because they're anti-gun, the Supreme Court came back and said in a nine to zero decision that this was not permissible. In fact, the court's opinion was written by Liberal Justice Kagan on June 5th, and it held Mexico's complaint did not plausibly allege the manufacturers aided and abetted unlawful sales in any way that would be. fit within the PLCAA's exceptions. Now you might say, why does this matter? Well, this isn't about whether you like big company big gun company X. This is about whether lawful manufacturers and sellers can be held financially responsible for criminal misuse of their products by third parties when the maker did not commit the crime. Think about it. What if you could hold an automobile manufacturer liable for damage caused by a drunk driver? It's really no different, but that's what they're seeking to do with these lawsuits against firearm companies. If you collapse that wall you can regulate an industry through litigation costs, what people call in this day and age lawfare. Even if the legislature can't pass a ban, what happens is you have all of these claimants and many of them now in these types of lawfare lawsuits are nongovernmental organizations or nonprofits that are just formed and then they sue and they sue just hoping to settle. And so they make money this way and believe it or not, even though they're nonprofits, the executives of these nonprofits are handsomely paid. And so it's a sue and settle kind of routine. They sue the government, they sue uh other agencies, and because the cost of litigation is so high, these these outfits settle with them. I I remember when I was an attorney, you know, you carry malpractice insurance and if you have a claim, many of these insurers they just want to look at it and go, all right, well, give them $50,000 to get them go away, even if it's a completely frivolous suit. Well included in that $50,000 is the lawyer's $10,000 deductible. So they're really only at $40,000. You know, you paid them to defend you and yet they don't want to do it. But that's another topic. But this is a way that anti-gun groups try to cripple our industry and frankly even us as users eventually, because it's going to make the cost of buying firearms so much higher. That's the whole reason that the PLCAA exists and that's why this decision is going to get cited constantly. As FFLs we already live with the reality of massive regulatory oversight, paperwork and record keeping compliance inspections, liability exposures that most industries don't carry. So when states attempt to create end runs around PLCAA, such as one going on right now in uh New York, they're going to just make this more difficult for all of us. So it's going to be uh it's a good thing that the Supreme Court was unanimous in its uh response here and uh hopefully we won't have to deal with this um too much more in the future but that may be wishful thinking the way everybody likes to go after the gun people. All right let's take a look a few quick hits at what's going on uh around in different states remember that California had a case pending where you had to have background checks every time you purchased ammunition. I mean can you imagine coming into Mountain West firearms to buy yourself two boxes of nine mil to do a little uh target shooting in your backyard and we had to stop have you fill out a 4473 or some other kind of form and run a background check on you just so that you could purchase that ammunition. Well a um Superior Court judge in uh California issued a uh an injunction against the state enforcing that law uh it was uh appealed to the Court of Appeals a three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals and they all happened to be uh Republican appointed judges found that that did not comply with New York State rifle and pistol versus Bruin the seminal Supreme Court case that happened a few years ago and so um the State of California has now uh asked has petitioned the Court of Appeals when you have just a three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals make a decision on something you have the right to petition the court for what they call an enbank hearing which means all of the judges of the Court of Appeals. And of course what they're hoping is you know many of the judges I think another seven or so of the eleven were appointed by Democrat judges they're hoping that all of those judges will overturn the three judge panel and um uphold the state's law on background checks. So that law is really sort of in flux and I think the the judge's injunction has stayed while it's going on um and we're gonna have to wait and see how that happens. The uh the new hearing it'll be a totally new hearing before the Court of Appeals uh and it will be N Bunk and uh the next step after that these are in federal court so the next step after that would be um an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court legislation in Florida would uh seek lowering the long gun purchase age back to age 18 from 21 and uh that is House Bill 133 down in Florida. I know we have a lot of customers come into the store that divide their time between Florida and North Carolina so that may be something to keep an eye on. Michigan Michigan lawmakers are considering a do not sell lists and raise concerns about privacy and accuracy even while supporting suicide prevention. Senate Bill 539 in Michigan uh is addressing firearm do not sell lists um you know suicide prevention is real safe storage is real the implementation details and due process privacy details are where the arguments live I mean we obviously have suicide prevention notices and pamphlets in our store nobody wants to see that nobody wants to see guns used unlawfully at least no law abiding gun user um and you might ask yourself why are all these other states? Well you know these states uh many of these bills are brought forward by special interest groups who oppose firearms and they go to one state see if they can get it passed there and then they use that as leverage to go to other states and they say oh well uh Michigan passed this so now Minnesota you should pass this as well and they just sort of try to build their momentum that way. It's remarkable to me as an attorney how many laws there are in different states that very closely resemble laws in another state. And it's because of this kind of shall we say uh uh suggestion by special interest groups as to what laws should put into place and then the states going along with it. Um and and it does it creates a ripple effect. Another thing down in Florida um they they uh have announced the Wildlife Agency in Florida has announced a 2025 bear hunt season and it's the first bear hunt season they've had in Florida in a decade. And they're issuing 172 permits and the season will run from December 6th through 28 of 2025. So that's an interesting one the bears must be taking over down there. Um it was a busy bear year here obviously in western North Carolina in Congress Representative Ted Liu is reintroducing the Lead Act that's House Resolution 6268 to restrict lead ammo on United States Fish and wildlife service lands. So uh if you're somebody who likes to do your hunting on U.S. Fish and wildlife service lands you may want to reach out to your Congressperson and let them know your position on that. Okay well that's about it for this episode. Let me uh just recap real quickly we talked about the ammo rules uh know your state's ammo rules and let's keep an eye on that California case because uh I think you could have effect um broader effect uh throughout the nation and then uh be aware of the debanking problems and and uh support your local uh FFLs who are having to deal with these kinds of problems I know we've dealt with them and and pushed against it and we really appreciate all the support that we've received here in the community. And another thing uh want to share with you that we've got uh training coming up at Mountain West we really appreciate uh a local property owner making his land available where he created a uh a safe shooting area where we can do some training so as I mentioned I think earlier we're gonna have concealed carry handgun courses courses on the second Saturday of uh every month we are also looking to offer an advanced handgun course uh which will involve shooting while in motion shooting from the holster things like that we have a pistol cleaning kinetic clinic coming up on uh January 17 I believe it is if that's a Saturday believe it's January 17 a pistol cleaning clinic um and that's interesting we're going to provide you with a universal pistol cleaning kit it runs everything from 22 long rifle all the way up to 45 mags so if you own several firearms or you purchase additional firearms in the future uh this kit will serve all those needs so that's included in the 7995 um uh uh registration amount and then we'll just go through it you bring in uh whatever firearm you'd like to learn to clean and we will assist you in uh breaking it down showing you how to clean it keep it lubricated and and keep your firearm in good shape so that's coming up as well we also hope to offer some courses for kids in the future about firearm safety uh and how to be around firearms um without posing a threat to others well that's gonna do it for this episode I'm Robert Wareham from Mountain West Firearms if you live in the Asheville area we'd love to meet you in person. Stop by the store we're at 1484 Charlotte Highway which is uh just north of King Creek Road on uh U.S. Highway 74A we're open from 9 to 4 Tuesday through Saturday and I say 9 to 4 because we're down to our shorter winter hours. So those hours will probably last till daylight savings time returns in March. We just found that after it gets dark there isn't many people out the coming out. So our hours will have winter hours 9 to 4 starting basically on about December 30th and that will run through when the time changes again in March.

Introduction:

Until next time train safe, store safe and I'll see you on the range thanks for listening to the Mountain West Firearms Podcast where skill meets responsibility. Subscribe for straight talk and expert insight and we'll see you on the next one.