Real Doctor Speaks

Why 80% Of Doctors Vanished From Private Practice (And Who Designed It That Way)

• Jim O'Leary • Episode 15

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When I graduated medical school, 80% of physicians were in private practice. Today it's 20%. That isn't a coincidence. It isn't a market correction. It was designed.

In this conversation, I sit down with a physician who lived through the same breaking system most of us have given up complaining about… and instead of leaving medicine quietly, she built something that's giving doctors back what the system stripped away. We talk about why physicians can't organize, why the AMA isn't going to save us, why your website matters more than your social media account, and the one shift in mindset that decides whether you stay a puppet or become the voice your patients actually need.

If you're a physician feeling battered, frustrated, or invisible — this one is for you. And if you're a patient who's wondered why your doctor seems checked out, you'll finally understand what's really happening behind the curtain.

In this episode, you'll learn:

  • Why the most powerful frustration every doctor feels has nothing to do with paperwork — and what it's actually pointing to
  • The reason physicians keep losing fights they should be winning, even when they're the experts in the room
  • The one digital mistake almost every doctor is making right now that will cost them everything if they don't fix it

Connect with Dr. Dana Correl:

Chapters:

00:00 – Cold Open 00:07 – From 80% To 20%: The Numbers Nobody Talks About 02:04 – Meet The Guest 03:01 – What Actually Drives Doctors Out 08:33 – The Real Mission Behind The Platform 10:59 – Building Something That Didn't Exist Yet 14:53 – Finding Your Voice Online 21:33 – Why Doctors Can't Organize 24:36 – Policy, Not Politics: A Story From The Capitol 29:42 – The Truth About The AMA 33:16 – A Modeling Agency For Brains 42:46 – The Conferences Are Broken 45:16 – The AI Trap Coming For Medicine 49:31 – The Hardest Part Of Building Anything Real 53:12 – Why Your Website Is Your Prime Digital Real Estate 01:01:19 – The Humanity We're Losing 01:04:46 – Get On The Platform

Tags & Keywords: private practice physicians, physician autonomy, doctors leaving medicine, healthcare system broken, why doctors are frustrated, physician burnout, doctors on social media, physician advocacy, healthcare reform, insurance company denials, PBM reform, hospital monopoly healthcare, AMA criticism, doctors building platforms, physician voice online, healthcare misinformation, AI in medicine, doctor directory, physician networking, own your digital real estate

SPEAKER_00

When I graduated medical school in 1985, 80% of physicians were in private practice. Now that number is 20%. That is a disaster, both for patients and for physicians. For patients, they're very frustrated. If they're seeing a doc who's employed by hospital, their prices just doubled and the service went down in half. They don't get to see their doctor anymore. They see a rotating crew of doctors, nurse practitioners. They feel nobody listens to them, nobody takes the time. And they're right. And the docs are equally frustrated. They don't control their schedules anymore. They want to work for the patients, but they can't. You can't have two masters. They're working for their boss. And they lose their autonomy and they get frustrated and they start looking for the exit. And this is by design. A lot of people say the system is broke. It's not. It was designed this way. It's designed by Congress and it was paid for by the healthcare lobbyists. And how are we going to fix this? And the big impediment to fixing it, in my opinion, has always been that the physicians don't talk to each other, especially across specialties. But today's guest has solved that problem. Dr. Dana Coriel has started SOME Docs, social media docs, and she's brought together physicians from across the spectrum, all different specialties, and she's created a Disneyland for physicians. There's so much there. There's content, there's directories, there's videos, there's courses. And I'm a newbie to that site. So I know just a little tiny bit about it, but she's going to tell you a lot more. And this podcast is for educational purposes only. It is not medical advice. Please seek the advice of a physician for any questions you have. Dana, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And could you tell us a little bit about your training? Because the first question is everybody's like, is this a real doctor?

SPEAKER_01

I am a real doctor. I uh obtained a medical degree uh back in um 2003 and then did residency in internal medicine, right, you know, across the bridge from where I am in the Bronx and um in Monteferry. Um, but yes, I'm a real physician. I worked for plenty of years, um, both for an academic center and in private practice, but you know, the private practice of today. I guess you can't really even call it private practice because it was for a health system. Okay, and so I experienced firsthand um, whether you call it the breaks in healthcare or that, you know, the purposeful design of healthcare that just doesn't work. And it doesn't work, like you said. It doesn't work for the physician, and it certainly doesn't work for the patient.

SPEAKER_00

No, it's terrible. What were your biggest frustrations when you were working there? What drove you crazy? Because I I didn't read your Metscape article about how you left, but I heard you talk about how people push back on you. And that upset me. Because first of all, it's your life. You should be able to do whatever you want. And, you know, you have to do what's best for you and your family and you have to survive. That's that's number one. And I would much rather a doc say, you know what, I'm done. I have to do something else. Then we've all seen those docs who hang in there and they're just frustrated and they take it out on the staff and patients, and you're like, dear God, man, please leave. You know, so I think it's better off to go out, you know, at the right time. But what were your frustrations there?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, before I get to the frustrations, and you may need to remind me that I'm answering that. The worst part about my sharing this is that people did not truly understand the bigger picture as much as I tried to explain it. Um, the outlet wasn't mine. When I wrote the article, it was for Medscape. So they have their own editorial standards and their own requirements. They actually asked me to change what I initially wrote. I initially um created like almost like a checklist of what doesn't work in healthcare and why people like me, great, you know, good doctors, I won't say great, but good, great, great doctors leave. Um, and so that sort of pushback, and again, I get it, right? It's this, it's the anonymity allowing you to stand to kind of sit behind a comment that's so critical. Some of them were fair, um, and again, fair from a perspective where they don't know me. Um, some of them were really stinging, they were personal and they were made from peers. And I was surprised. Again, I am one to always invite uh critical thinking and criticisms, but they stung. That said, it stung at the time when this was happening. And I can very confidently say that today I do have thicker skin. And so if people have um, you know, criticisms, I welcome them with open arms. Those criticisms allow me to be a better person and allow me to shape my venture in a better way because I hear what doesn't work. Um, and I can either take it or leave it. And I don't really care. If it stings, then it stings. I move on. Um, but the frustrations of working in a medical practice, um, there are many. First of all, and and most importantly of all, you're not the boss. So you're not making the decisions, which sounds so I'll almost say it sounds so petty to the average person who might be listening. Um, it sounds very controlling, even maybe. But let me tell you something, let me tell the public something. When you're a physician taking care of the a patient, it's their life in your hands. You better believe that control is important. Absolutely. And for obvious reasons, if someone's life is in your hands, then you want control over that life. The second you start taking a patient and a physician and layering middles in between, then you make it harder to treat that patient and to save their life or to make their life better, et cetera. And that's what's been set up in healthcare is just these middle men that have crept in and have not allowed us to make the decisions that are important for our patients. So, biggest frustration is that from a 30,000-foot view, but more um more exact, more specific with the insurance companies that you know regularly deny our medications and our orders and actually make treatment longer because we have to get on phones to argue with someone that's had a fraction, right? And when I say a fraction, I'm talking like 0.000% of what we have spent in school. What's the point of going to school? Secondly, it's the systems that have sort of aligned to, I hate to say it, because we need those systems. We need hospitals, but they've made themselves into monopolies that have gobbled up to own these private practices that used to live, that used to exist freely. Um, they've gob gobbled us up and they make us um not survive privately. And then what happens is that you're no longer the person in charge. So if you think about it, if the hospital's in charge of your clinic, even if the clinic isn't in the hospital and you're a physician in the clinic, everybody that works for you in the clinic is at the end of the day, um uh their bosses are sitting in the hospital. It's not you. So if you need something done or done differently, or you see that something's not working well, they're not really at the end of the day, they're not really gonna care because it's their bosses that are either not there to see it, or maybe even telling them to do it a certain way. Hospitals have gotten clever and they will use the in-betweens to sort of um like a very clever entrepreneurship venture layer, um, so that they will be far removed from all the complaints. And then the physicians in the you know, front and center stage, um, they don't readily go to complain often, right? Because there's layers. They have to first go to the office manager, then they have to go to this person, then that person. So it's all just the biggest frustration is just the loss of autonomy. And that's actually at the heart of the mission of what I created in Sony Docs.

SPEAKER_00

No, and that is so important. And I agree with you, you know, and I was lucky, I was in a private practice that was truly independent. And, you know, and I saw the change in the hospitals. There were three small hospitals when I came to town, and they really were very independent. They had their own presidents, and the presidents were aligned with the medical staff. You know, they and you would have the medical staff meetings and they would be packed. Every physician went to them and it was great. Then all of a sudden, the mergers started. Then, you know, the medical bylaws changed, and nobody became involved anymore because you had no power over it. They just destroyed it. And it was interesting to see it happen over time. And but but you're right. And the accountability, you know, the hard part is the hospitals love to say, well, it's your decision. You're responsible, but then they undercut you a hundred different ways. And the basic thing is you can't even have your own staff if you're employed by the hospital, you know, where I could choose my own nurses. I actually had three nurses that were young moms and they were working, you know, part-time. They worked it out, you know. So I could set up my practice however I wanted. That was the beauty of it, which I love my priority. And I could do whatever I want. I could stay later. You know, a patient called me on Thursday at four o'clock and she had problems. I would just keep the office open longer because she's gonna go to the ER, be there for hours, get a huge bill, and they're not gonna address her complaint. That's what's gonna happen. Or I could see you in half an hour and figure it out. And, you know, but you could do things like that. You can't do that if you're employed. You can keep the, I could come in early. You know, you could do a million things. And it was just crazy. I love that. And you know, I was thinking back the other day, my patients actually had concierge care without having to pay for it because in our practice is like old school. We delivered our own patients even when we weren't on call. So we are always coming in. And I mean, it's terrible for my family in retrospect. But you know, I remember like fourth of July, fireworks, and your pager goes off. And as one of your favorite patients, you're like, Oh, I gotta go in, you know, see go in and do stuff, but nobody does that anymore. But the patients love it, and you know, it's such a good experience for them. But I'm really interested in your site. Could you could you tell me how did you get the idea for this? This is such a unique venture. And what was kind of that first iteration when you started it?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm very much of an idea person. So, uh, what drives me are the pain points in life. So there are many, and in medicine in particular, there's many pain points. Uh, what drove me initially was experiencing that in the first place, but also coupled with the fact that I took time away from medicine to when I had my third son, and I really discovered these unique talents and skills that I had that I honestly just never either knew or um did anything with. Okay. So, you know, talents in having an artistic eye and ability to design and do things in a way that really stands out, that helped me in the long run with building what I have. I didn't necessarily know exactly how I would build things out. I definitely had a vision of what I wanted to build and I knew that it wasn't in existence. And actually, because of that, it made it hard for me to build, especially in the first few years, because you know, I was trying to bring people in to at least do it, you know, with me, not for me, but with me and and and even colleagues, but people just didn't understand. They didn't understand my vision. I tried to draw it out. Um, and I had people from from business, I had people from medicine. Um, in general, just people did not understand what I was trying to build or why, you know, especially outside of medicine, the why.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I remember several times, a number of times, getting ridiculed about, you know, what am what am I doing? I mean, what are you talking about? But I knew that it was needed because I really could foresee a future. And this was like a decade ago, but I could foresee a future where everything was going to become more and more online and where my neighbors were going to rely more and more on the online um writing and advice that they saw. Because even a decade ago, when I was dabbling, uh my peers, my my neighbor peers, my non-physician peers were really active online. I didn't even know about this whole world until I took a step away from medicine. And I had time to sort of look around and see, whoa, this is so cool. You know, the world of blogging. And so I started to blog and to kind of experiment with writing. And then again, I had the vision. I wasn't sure how I was going to do it. I knew nothing about tech. But over the years, I took step by step by step. I allowed myself to make mistakes, to pull arms back if they weren't working, but to push arms forward, arms of the venture, um, if they were working, learned how to, you know, work the internet websites, uh, content creation. Um, and again, using my design skills and such, um, our website has really evolved over the last few years, especially. Um, and I can say, for example, there's definitely regrets, regrets like I'm not sure the name was a smart one because again, we picked so me docs. We were originally going to maybe focus on social media, but over time it turned into a healthcare omni media platform that dealt with healthcare. So we don't deal with just social media. And today I like to say we're so me docs, we're social media docs in that we use social media to promote and publicize all the individual experts, but you don't have to. You can be a doctor that's working in practice, in your practice, whether you're employed or not, and not even know how to use social media. We are the omni media platform that will help to, you know, promote autonomy in healthcare.

SPEAKER_00

No, I think that's great. And it's interesting because I didn't do anything with social media until I re I retired in uh see 23, March 23. And then I was like, okay, my poor wife's probably like, okay, he's finally gonna be a dutiful husband. But I'm like, well, let me let me check out some other things in it. Uh and you know, so I started blogging on X, which is kind of a gladiator academy. You get these, I laughed the other day when you said my comment was kind of blunt. I'm like, oh, you should have seen my things on X. But you know, it's kind of a gladiator academy. And it is funny what you said about sting. I mean, you I mean, what people would say in there, especially on X, because a lot of those counts are anonymous, and there's a lot of bots. But then I learned if you really were pushing, especially United Health or, you know, any of these healthcare industries, they would send bots out after you. So then I got excited. I'm like, all right, the bots are coming. I'm getting somewhere. I'm like, thanks for showing up. But the first time they come, it scares the heck out of you. But then the you're like, but there's there's a big PBM reform push in December of 24, and there's like swarms of bots that were coming out. And you know, so it's really, yeah, because they once once they're threatened, but but these are huge industries. I mean, you're talking about, you know, United Health, you're you're talking about Sigma, these are all Fortune 20 companies. You have three Fortune companies. So they have more money than most of the countries in the world. So there are, I mean, this is an attack, you know. So it's pretty wild, but it's just true. But I don't know how a doc who is practicing would have time because I was so focused when I was practicing. And I think we all do it, you know, you get that tunnel vision, you're trying to keep up. And, you know, and I think every doc has this. You always bring the patients home in your mind. You never quite relax. I mean, you'll sit there, you're at the beach, and you're like, oh, what about that one? You know, it just hits you in the middle of the night. You wake up. And it's just hard to think about other things when you're really in the game. And I think it's hard to be part-time. I think being a part-time doc, I would never do that because I'm like, you're either in the game or you're not. Because, and I think that's hard for women in medicine because you're like, oh, well, have a child, it'll be part-time, especially if you're married to another physician, because you know, you need somebody for the home front, you know, and it's hard. It's a I have three daughters, and I basically said, none of you can go into medicine. And I thought, now I'm not the king of them, you know, and I thought if they wanted to go, they would do it. But I I wanted to put a little bit of a barrier for them because I wanted to make sure they really wanted to do it. Instead of just saying, well, dad was a doc, I have to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we have the same situation. I'm in a dual physician household, and yes, everything you've described, it was really hard. I had my first, I have three sons, the opposite of you. And when I was pregnant with my first child in in during internship, and you can imagine it was really hard. And, you know, raising children, having a dual physician family was is close to impossible. I do know people that are doing it, but it's very, very hard. I can also say that we too um do not necessarily encourage our children to go into medicine, and they aren't. I have a son that's graduating college, I have another that's already in college and another one in high school. But I I honestly don't not only don't think any of them are going into medicine, but my husband and I talked about this the other day and said of if not all, most of the doctors that we're friends with, none of their children is going into medicine. So just let that sink in.

SPEAKER_00

No, it's scary. I mean, I think I was one of the earlier ones because at that time most of the docs were honestly, they were encouraging their children to do it. Yeah. And I would say like half my medical school class were students who really didn't want to be there, but their physics, you know, their parents are physicians, and they were kind of grew up thinking if you weren't a doc, you weren't anything. And just how it was. And I felt bad for a lot more. Well, I wanted to be a physician, you know, and you know, that's a different thing if you really are hungry for it. You can, you, you can put up with a lot of other things, but you didn't really want, I felt bad for them, honestly. And the one thing I'm excited about, though, is the direct primary care because I think that can save primary care. There's such a need for great primary care. And I get sick of people saying, Oh, you don't need primary care physicians. They can't do anything. You know, you just need a nurse practitioner and specialists. I'm like, no, I mean, there's brilliant primary care physicians who are very dedicated, really good at managing chronic diseases. I'm also tired, and I know this is why we're both on social media. I'm tired of all these people saying docs don't understand, you know, the effects, what the root causes of medicine. They don't care. They just are shills for big pharma and on and on and on. There's so much misinformation. And I personally was motivated for two reasons to get on social media. One was to really push back on the disinformation. It really upsets me. And I really want to get it out there. And I want to be respectful to patients, but just say, you know, here's really the other side of it. And the other thing is I really want to encourage the young physicians out there because I think they're just battered. I want somebody to be a fierce advocate form. And I know you are, you're great with that. But I think they need to hear that. And I think that helps them out. And the other thing I learned in this too, which is really interesting, is that the pharmacists are in the same spot. The independent pharmacists are in the same spot we are with the PBMs. And I read the first FTC interim report. And in that, which I think was July 24th, a lot of that's talking about how the insurance companies use prior authorizations, clawbacks, all the stuff they do to us, they do to them. And I was like, boy, I never realized that we're really in the same boat. So I kind of went down these rabbit holes and, you know, got to know a lot of the pharmacists. I spoke in front of Congress about it. I spoke to a renal physician group about PBMs and met some great people out there. But I think also physicians really need. So I love that you're thinking about having pharmacists on there. The good thing with independent pharmacists is not only are they in the same boat as we are, they're much more organized and they message way better. So I think it's really, as a physician, I was humbled by how they do that. And they're getting a lot of wins in a lot of the states right now, and which is great. I mean, they really are good fighters. They're getting big bills coming to Congress. So we need to learn from them. So I definitely think that's a brilliant idea to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So first of all, I think healthcare is a team sport, to your point. We originally started with the doctors, and now we are trying to slowly, we're still working on the doctors, but we're trying to slowly branch out and include pharmacists and therapists and dietitians and scholars and nurses, because again, we can't do it alone. Um, we need others and we need to model after the successes of others where it comes to the issues that we face. I do want to say that regarding your comment about their ability to organize better, um, yeah, I think that that's a huge part of why physicians have not really moved the needle in terms of the changes that they need, is because we can't organize well. We're we haven't been unionized. I don't necessarily I'm not saying a union is the best answer. Of course, there's positives and negatives. What I am saying is that it's hard to organize, unlike other professions, where it's more straightforward because the profession is more uniform. So pharmacists are pharmacists across the board. Right. And nurses similarly are, for the most part, they're nurses across the board. So it's easier for them to organize and kind of fight for similar desires and needs. Whereas for us, we are segmented in so many ways. We're segmented by first and foremost specialty. So a cardiologist is not going to have the same needs and the same fights as will an internist. So we already are segmented there. And now with social media in place, I've discovered that we're also segmented even with our opinions of the issues within medicine. So again, if we're so divided, how are we going to make a change? And that's what I'm trying so hard to do through SoMe Docs is this collective unified effort while also bringing together people that are completely different and reminding everyone that we're different. You know, we're trying to really, really be non-political. But when I say that we're trying to be non-political, that doesn't mean that we won't publish an article, let's say that a physician submits that's well written, you know, that has to do with medicine, but we'll just do it from either side. Like we're not selective about who you are. We're just giving you a platform to voice your opinion. And so again, I hope that it works. But that's what I've been trying to do with Sony Docs is just bring everyone in and not make it like a um uh what's the word? Like like herd mentality to not make it where everyone has to agree with each other. That's something that I very much just in general and in life shy away from. It's like I'm a it's like a magnet. It it pushes me away when I see too many people pile on, even when it's a pile on in a way that I agree with. You know, I I really value good discussion that's respectful and that's intelligent.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna push back a little bit on you, but not blunt, not bluntly, like I did. You said I was in one LinkedIn. We can do it bluntly. No, no, no. But here's where here's where I think we can do this. And here's why I think physicians can win. And I agree with all the specialty things. And I think every physician should be in their specialty organization for specially specific things. However, there are a group of core issues that affect us all. And, you know, we've been set up with the payment system, the buttheads. We're like, the surgeons make too much money, the primary care are getting screwed. You know, we're we're all in these different things. You know, I'm an OB. OBs make less because for some reason, if you treat women or children, you're deemed less valuable. And that went back decades ago. I mean, just for the payment system, you're paid less. I mean, I don't know who did that or why, but whatever. But my point is there's a core group of things. So things like, and these really resolve around physician autonomy. And they're really not specific to either political party. Because the political parties don't really matter. Because what happens administration after administration, the American Hospital Association, the American Health Insurance Plan, all these spend massive amounts of money and Congress votes their way. And they also control CMS. I mean, CMS is now really a branch of optimum, which is a branch of United Health. That's the reality. That's who's controlling it right now. So I'm saying is I think there's a great place for policies. I'm not, I don't like either party. And when I spoke for the PBMs, I was in there and Jerry Nadler, who's a very liberal individual from Manhattan, was chairing it. And I went in there and I was like, okay, and I'm fairly conservative guy. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going in there for policy. I'm not in there as a political thing. I want to find common ground with him. And I, you know, I want to get him on my side. So I'm not going to go in and insult him. Plus, I'm also old enough. I have respect for a sitting congressman. I'm in the Capitol. You're going to behave a certain way. But he starts out and he starts talking about how vertical integration is terrible. So what he really was saying, how it's hurting us, it's increasing the cost, he's really saying without saying it is that the Affordable Care Act was a disaster, that it really didn't turn out well and it's harming us. And we got along so well and we were aligned. And I started telling about PBMs, and I started telling him how many hundreds of billions of dollars we're paying extra in the United States versus other countries. I told him it's up to $500 billion a year. And he looked at me, he's like, Really? I'm like, yeah, here's the numbers. And he was like, oh my gosh, you know, and we had fun in there because they're used to very straight lace, these talking points, people are reading off a prepared thing. I'm like, yeah, I'm not reading anything. And I started telling him, and I started saying, you know, the PBMs have a hall pass because they, you know, get that exemption from the anti-kickback statute and they get to take rebates. And he goes, What's a hall pass? We were just laughing in there. But I think that's what we can do. We could break down things. And everybody on that panel was the same way, and it was great. And they started out, him and a couple other guys were very partisan, and they kind of dropped that because they're like, oh, these guys are serious and they're just here for policy. And the first thing I said was, I'm not a pharmacist. I'm not going to make a dime if we get PBM reform. But here's what's going to happen we're going to get better health care for everybody at a better price. That's what I care about. So there's lobbyists for the PBMs in the back of the room. They were just like looking down, like, oh man, what do we say to this guy? They wouldn't even ask a question. But I think that's where we have the power because I think there's lots of things we could do. And I do think that that would be interesting to test. And I love policy. I don't like politics. So I don't want somebody to say, oh, we have to support this person. No, you don't support anybody. That's ugly. I don't like politics. I love good policy. So I'm thinking of things like site neutral payments. Why hospitals shouldn't be paid more than us, you know, things like that. Physicians shouldn't be underpaid for Medicaid so much you can't take Medicaid patients. And then they end up in the ER and they can't get follow-up. It's a disaster. And then we're spending wasting billions of dollars on non-medical Medicaid programs. Who designs this? So those are the things I think, and you know, I think those are things that are fair to patients because it helps and whatever helps us really ultimately helps patients. So I think those are the things that I think we can really work together for. Physicians should be able to own hospitals. It's insane that you can't. You know, I think the Stark laws just prevent innovation. We're the only ones who have a Stark law. There's no Stark Law for the hospitals. They sell for all day. Plus they're nonprofit. They're not paying any taxes. I was like, are you kidding me? You know, NYU Lagone runs a Super Bowl ad. They can spend $8 million on a Super Bowl ad, but they can't pay taxes. So that that anyway, that's my rant. And, you know, something to think about, but I think we have to do that. The AMA is not going to do it for us. Right. And is that gentleman said on LinkedIn quite right? You're way ahead of the AMA, which I love that comment.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I um agree with you. I agree with you completely. And I do agree that there are policies that we can focus on and not be political. And that's been my stance from day one. I don't want to argue politics. No, I'm not interested in that. But I want to argue healthcare and health. And it's so clear to me, and it's so clear to you what's right and what's wrong. Um, so yes, I do agree. And yes, I did post about the AMA. I've been disappointed. Uh, and I think that many, many peers are disappointed along with me. Um, at some point, their membership was was so, so low. And I see that they're trying to figure out ways. I see that they're trying to take out ads and they're trying to also, I notice that they're trying to put my peers in like positions so that they can go out and sort of cheerlead for them. Um, and that is also a turnoff because it's like, okay, so like now you've got a position on there, but like how, what exactly are they doing? I'm still waiting for them to reach out and say, wow, like SoMe Docs has created something incredible that we haven't. We're not going to try to recreate the wheel. And you can swap any other organization with AMA, by the way. You can literally swap anyone. And if they reach out, if they just give the respect of, wow, you are making a difference. Your stuff is good. Let us work together using your strength and skills, because now I'm doing this full time. Yes. And work with us on our skills and talents. And together we will be stronger. I don't see that happening.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, I don't think that'll happen at all. Because I think I think the AMA, and and I'm not saying that they're bad to do this. I mean, they're correct to do this. They make their revenue from the CPT codes, licensing it. So they're gonna, they're gonna protect that. And I would too. So I don't blame them. And I've called for, I think the AMA should actually separate, they should have a division that does that, rename something else and advocate for physicians, call it something, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that would be not doing it. I'm gonna do it. And again, I'm not even saying I'm equivalent to the AMA, and I'm also like you, I'm not criticizing them in a way that they shouldn't exist. But no, and again, you know, I'm waiting for, and it's again, not just the AMA. I'm waiting for organizations to get their stuff together and stop trying to be siloed. If I see an organization that makes an impact that speaks to me and I see my and I know my strengths and talents, I will happily align and partner on something. It doesn't mean we have to like merge and we have to like own one another, you know, you can own your own thing. I am truly an entrepreneur at heart. And I actually respect entrepreneurial strategies that allow a company to succeed. But when you're claiming to be the physician's voice, but you're just kind of using strategies to stay afloat and to collect dues, it's not doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_00

No, and the thing is, I don't think you actually have to, I don't think you need those other societies because the thing is you're growing and growing, and you are actually the physician's voice because that's who's speaking there. And I think over time, and I'm sure it's already happening. Again, I'm a newbie there, but you know, the media is going to start coming to you and to members there and getting the information. And that'll start changing. Because right now, the the media is like, okay, let's get a quote from the AMA. I want that to end. So all the media folks out there, end it. The real docs are so many docs. That's where you get your quotes, you get experts.

SPEAKER_01

I I love it. I'm I'm I'm so sorry for interrupting you. Not only do I love it, but I don't want to I don't want to not have a chance to tell your audience about our directories because that was one of the main purposes. Yeah, because you're in there. That was one of the main purposes of why I built our Doctor Directory. It was one of the original things that I built in Sony Docs is that I recognized that. I said, there are so many incredible and talented peers out there that can speak on topics. I one kept seeing the same names over and over again. And two, recognize how hard it is for physicians to actually get into media. A lot of times it's through PR companies, which the majority of our peers are not doing. PR companies are ridiculously expensive. And so why have to go through all jump through all those hoops when media is more than happy to connect with a doctor, a degree doctor that you know has an opinion on whatever article they're writing? And so I built these directories to be beautiful. They're like, we call it like a modeling agency, but for brains. Obviously, not to insinuate that modeling agencies don't have brains, but they focus on the looks usually.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, no, absolutely not. We're focusing exactly.

SPEAKER_01

We're focusing on the brains.

SPEAKER_00

You want it visually appealing, that's which is great.

SPEAKER_01

We make it visually appealing, we make it free to use, even unlike LinkedIn, which by the way is not organized. LinkedIn is my favorite platform, but it's a sea of online voices. Whereas when you go to Sony Docs, it is an organized library. There's a filters on the side on the mobile, there's a button. And you can niche down your search by clicking several filters and finding exactly who you need. I will say that to your point, the Wall Street Journal the other day read an article in our magazine that they loved and they reached out to the physician who wrote it.

SPEAKER_02

That's great.

SPEAKER_01

Um, they've reached out to me. I've had HuffPost reach out and Medscape and Men's Health. I've also had startups reach out to members who show up on the directory again, free of charge. That's why I brought up LinkedIn because when you message someone and you don't pay them, a lot of times it's limited. Like you have to pay LinkedIn, not the expert.

SPEAKER_00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, startups reaching out to physicians for advisory positions and for CMO positions. And why not? Like, yeah, that's great. Why put, yeah, why make it hard? And that's a lot of what I'm doing in Sony Docs is I'm identifying pain points and I'm coming up with solutions that are cheaper, quicker, and more productive.

SPEAKER_00

No, I love that. That's great. And, you know, and I've co-called this is funny, years ago, the Wall Street Journal is writing an article. And the hard part is they're not science writers anymore. They used to be medical writers. They're not. They were the travel writer yesterday. Today they're writing about healthcare. So they don't know. So they want, and they were writing about an article about morselation. And I don't know if remember a number of years ago, there's a tragedy. I think it was one of the Harvard hospitals where there's a woman with a big fibroid uterus, they morselated it, and it turned out to be a sarcoma. So disaster. And and and her husband was a thoracic surgeon. Um, you know, rightly so was upset about it and very vocal. So they're writing articles about it. And some of the facts weren't correct. So I just cold called the person. I'm like, listen, you know, I longtime subscriber, OBGYN, I just want to give you some background. And she's like, Do you want to be quoted? I'm like, no, I really don't want to be quoted. I just want to help you write a better article. And she loved that. You know, she's like, oh, that's great. So she called me a couple of times. She wrote, you know, series articles, and they were really well written. They were balanced and, you know, and great articles. I just said, no, I just want you to succeed. That's all. And so I think there's such a good role for that. And let me ask you as a newbie. So I start on your site. There's three levels. And could you walk me through to three levels? And for all the people out there yet, all the docs who aren't on Sony docs, first of all, get on there or you're in trouble. I want you on there. Second of all, how do the newbies navigate it? What would you say, you know, what would you recommend? Like your first four or five steps?

SPEAKER_01

First of all, just so that your audience understands, there's three types of uh members that can join. There's the healthcare professional, that's you and I, and pharmacists and nurses, and dietitians, and therapists, and scholars, et cetera. There's students, which is more of a new thing, and also there's experts for doctors. So people that come in and say, hey, I want to be here, but I'm not a healthcare professional. I can help you guys become more autonomous. Um, so there's three different levels, but it's there's three different members. But for the healthcare professional, um, there's a basic profile level, um, which at this point in time, at least, when we're recording this, is free to anyone with a verifiable NPI. There's a beyond level, which gets you that plus extra perks. And then there's a PR and content creation package, which is more one-on-one and personalized and really helps the individual. Um, but the most important steps is that you pick a level, right? Whether it's a free profile for now or it's beyond level or it's that, you pick a level, you get into it, either pay or apply. The first step after you become a member is to build that profile. Everything revolves around and it's based on that pro that beautiful profile, which appears not only in our directory, but once you decide where on the website you'd like to get involved, it goes with you in there. What do I mean? I mean that if you write an article that's accepted and searched and published and circulated, your profile will appear on the bottom as a digital business card. That's what we call it, because it looks like that. If you lecture to in our online conferences, your digital business cards appears not appears not only in the landing page, but also in your own landing page of your lecture, which I build as well. Um, and that profile also shows up in all of the side venture directories that we have. We have a directory for books and a directory for podcasts and a directory for speakers. And again, in this way, I've built with my own two hands and I run with my own two hands a library that's organized of doctors and then separately of what we're doing on the side so that we can quickly find what we need. If we're an event, you can either use our directory and just click on, let's say, OBGIN and a speaker because you want both of those things. Or maybe you want someone who's also got a YouTube channel because for whatever reason you want to incorporate that, you would click all three and it would niche it down to those business cards of the people that that match. And then you click in, you open up that profile, send them an inquiry, done.

SPEAKER_00

Great. I love that. No, that's fantastic. And there's so many things now. Who can speak, you know, because I'm I'm just reading through all these things, you know, who can write an article for the magazine? Who can speak at the conferences? How do you decide that?

SPEAKER_01

Those are hard decisions, you know, those are really hard decisions. And I say that because, you know, all of us have been in academia because we all trained.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And academia is amazing on one hand because it really uh makes sure that you're getting the quality. But academia is also stifling because it has to be their way, or it's not, you know, you can't ever, you know, suggest something or have ideas. Academia to some degree stifles creativity. Now, we need evidence-based in medicine. We absolutely do, but we also need to not stifle. So there are rules. Um, and so far we've done a really great job of showcasing publishing articles that hit um and that the audience really loves. We have a great circulation and a great readership. Um, and also putting together lectures and conferences that make sense. And again, this is what I also want to say in sort of finding pain points and solving them. The conferences of today are so very cumbersome, they're so expensive. Yeah, and they're also, it takes so much to go to one conference. You have to fly out, you have to take a vacation, you have to stay away from your children, you have to pay for a hotel and for flights. And it really adds up again, monetarily and opportunities lost.

SPEAKER_00

And you have to pay for your if you're an independent practice doc, you're paying for all your overhead when you're gone.

SPEAKER_01

Of course. Yeah, it's opportunities lost. Exactly. So that's the issue that I recognized. And again, in recognizing the skills and talents I had, it was I can build conferences that are curated really well and bring in speakers rapidly. And by the way, I'm getting, for the most part, the same speakers that these large conferences are getting that are charging a thousand, two thousand dollars and making people go through so much. But we're getting it, and we're sometimes we've been offering it for free, but you know, $80, $150, $200, it's reasonable. And that's what we should be doing in medicine is pushing the cost down, just like private practices are doing that.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Also, the exchange of information should be getting pushed down instead of making everything ridiculous, which is what we're trying to do in healthcare.

SPEAKER_00

No, I love all those things. I mean, this is wonderful. I love the autonomy push. I'm very concerned with the docs of today. And one of the things that bothered me, I remember this. You always remember stuff when you're a new doc. So I remember joining the medical staff and you had all these old curmudgeons. Not that I'm an old curmudgeon, but I probably am. And they were really just rude. You know, they wouldn't, they wouldn't even look at you. I was like, okay, I'm never doing that. So that was one of the things that I love doing. New docks that come on board. I was a little more senior. I'd go up to them and I'm like, hey, you know, where did you train? And you and everybody has something really cool in their training. And all, you know, and it's scary. When you're a new doc, you're afraid. We're all afraid the first day you're the attending, scariest day of your life. And we're like, like, we know nothing. And all these people around here are just, you know, they're experts, they've been in practice forever. But in reality, you just got out of training. And, you know, the smart docs are like, hey, what did they, what did you learn there? What's the newest thought on these conditions? And so I always love getting the new docs in and just picking their brain. And then they relax. They're like, oh, they actually realize I know something. And one of the hardest things, at least no be GYN now, the residents are coming out with no surgical skills. And what's happening is everybody's going into a fellowship. So then the fellows are taking all the surgical cases. Because it'll be like when I went through, very few people did fellowships. It's more the people going into academia. But now pretty much everybody does a fellowship. You know, they do GY oncology or they do minimally invasive gynecologic surgery. That didn't even exist. Every surgeon was that back then. So it was hard. So you really had to kind of mentor the people coming out. And it was interesting doing that because some of them had a lot of innate skills, but they had no training. But you could see it. It was kind of fun for me. I'd be like, wow, they are really good technically. They just need the confidence and the support. And, you know, that's so important. And the thing is, you know, and this is going to happen with AI. The more you things change in healthcare, you give up something when you have something new. So when I started, you you really didn't depend on imaging. You really depended on history and physicals. People were doing, you know, now cardiologists are all about the echo. In the old days, you know, they would listen, they'd have the patients in different positions, they go in soundproof rooms and they'd make these wild diagnoses. Now it's just, oh, just get the echo. And but you give up something, you know, each time. And same thing with the neurologists. They make all these wild diagnoses. So I think with AI, we have to be very careful. And I read an article recently that the medical students are struggling because they're using AI to do these beautiful presentations, but they don't have the skill set of working up a patient, getting a differential diagnosis, working through treatment plans. So they present that, but they don't know it. So if you took that away from them, they're going to drown. If AI makes an error, they don't know it because they're not really reading it and they trust it. And even for experienced docs, if you start using AI and you're like, oh, they got it, and you don't really look at it critically, you're going to start missing things. So I think we have to be really careful. And the liability is going to fall on the dock for the AI. It's not going to be the guy who created the Elgo who sold out. He's worth a billion dollars. He's fine.

SPEAKER_01

But this what you're saying reminds me of electronic health health records as well. Yes. Because when we adopted those, we needed to like check off so many check marks that sometimes we'd just kind of like go through it routinely and we miss things. Or we'd have to ask questions that had nothing to do with the visit because we were mandated to do so. But again, doing that takes away time from an actual visit, right? If someone comes into me coughing and they're being asked about whether they're depressed, um, very relevant, by the way, in primary care. But I have had patients actually furious when they walked in about having wasted their time for just a simple cough coming in that they have to go through so many questions and you know, and they take it out on you, like you said. We're the front line. And so we're the ones that look like we are asking this and that it matters to us. It does matter to us, but again, we're mandated many times. We're controlled, we're the puppets.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, it was interesting. When I started out, we we use a handheld dictation device, and we had trans in-house transcription, and it is so efficient. And I I've written written about this on X and all these people are like, that doesn't work. You can't read the records. I'm like, it's tight. You can't get them. I go, they're in the office, which is attached to the hospital. They're never gonna get hacked, they're never gonna end up on the dark web. You know, I mean, you had the change healthcare attack, you had 165 million records like that on the dark web. And you really don't hear anything about it because the truth is, and this is the ugly truth, this would be a good going back to our policy things, is once companies get big, they're gangsters. They can get away with anything. You know, you routinely see companies that get fined for violating false claims acts. So, like I think CVS just got that recently, uh $615 million. You know, they get fined for that. You know, and and I don't know if that was really true. Do they violate? I don't know. But but if a physician was convicted of false claims acts, you're probably gonna go to prison. It's a big deal, you know. But for the companies, they just kind of pay fines and they move on. And you know, maybe it was real, maybe it wasn't. I don't know. But there's definitely a double standard there.

SPEAKER_01

I remember a story, um, it was a few years ago, about a young woman that needed an anti-seizure medication. Um, and she was prescribed it by the doctor. Again, I don't know all the specifics, but I remember that it was someone that prescribed it. It was a doctor, let's say. And then she went to the pharmacy. It wasn't filled because the insurance denied and needed some authorizations, and the pharmacist couldn't do it. And so called the doctor. The doctor didn't get the message. The pharmacist claimed they kept calling the doctor, the doctor didn't. Bottom line, the poor young woman passed away. And um, the family, of course, was upset and and they sued, but they sued the doctor and the pharmacist. Meanwhile, it was the insurance company that denied the medication and actually caused this whole thing to happen. Yeah, but they're not sued. And so, again, it's this these like protections that are in place. Yeah, and you see it again and again, it's money. It's it is who has the largest amount of money, and you know, right? Money talks. Whoever has the largest amount of money gets to set the rules.

SPEAKER_00

No, a hundred percent with that. I just want to ask you, what was the most difficult part of your whole process? What was something where you were shocked that it was difficult?

SPEAKER_01

The amount of times that I was told no or deleted or censored by colleagues in places where my presence and responses were appropriate. I have been shocked by the way medicine has turned. We are increasingly turning to social media for our um spaces where we discussed and for camaraderie. But I see over and over again like the influence that, for example, social media uh Facebook groups have in controlling the narrative where it comes to the top, where it comes to the admin, and really playing a number on doctors. Um, I'm shocked. That that has been the biggest frustration and the biggest shock for me is just those spaces. Additionally, being told no by peers. Again, going back to like working with others, I have been shocked at peers that are building things themselves or building um grassroots organizations, even, but even just groups, where they will be so quick to say no because they deem that you're competition versus framing it as a what can we do together again to bring your skills and my skills together and integrating them to both benefit. That's been the most frustrating and also the most surprising.

SPEAKER_00

One of the difficulties with physicians, you know, it's a very lonely profession. It's very competitive to be a physician and get in medical school. You know, we're competing with each other. We get used to that. And that doesn't work in today's world. And, you know, it's fine back in the 50s, but now, unfortunately, the government's involved with healthcare quite a bit. And you have to be at the table. Or, like they say, you're going to be on the menu if you're not at the table. Exactly. And I think that we have to change that behavior. And I agree with you because I could imagine somebody could be very involved with your site and they can have their own website, they could have their own podcast, they could do things on their own.

SPEAKER_01

That's actually what I have from day one. I have taught is that everyone should first and foremost have their own space. But then after that, right? Um, after that, you come to a place like SoMe Docs, which really is a marketplace for networking. The number one thing that we do is I I try to do is to facilitate networking, right? I've got people's digital business cards. So even when I like, we have a WhatsApp community that's new, I did that because I couldn't facilitate networking in Facebook, for example. We still have Facebook groups and they've got thousands of doctors, but it's constantly suppressed by algorithms. And so, what's the point of the thousands of doctors gathering there to actually, because they're interested in Sony docs, if they're then gonna be if the posts are gonna be suppressed? So I opened up that, again, very confusing space of WhatsApp, but at least there's nobody like deleting, nobody likes stifling us.

SPEAKER_00

I did join up on that. It is, it is very interesting. And I agree with that. I think what's gonna happen is I think social media is gonna lose some effect because I think people are gonna get tired. Like I got hacked on X. I built my X account up to you know 11,000 plus people, and that won't help me get it back because they when they hack you, they change your, they change your password and you're out. But they kept billing me for the premium plus. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's like this is insane. But I think as things evolve, what's gonna happen, and this is why I think you were so pressioned to start this, is that it's gonna evolve from going off of sites where you have no control and it's not really your content when it's on X or LinkedIn. And now it's here. This is all of a sudden, you have control of this. Nobody can just come in and change it or move it around or do things. And this is what we all should do. And you know, I'm working on getting a website so I can put my podcast on there. So if all of a sudden I get thrown off of a site, I'm like, well, it's over here and people want to read it, they could go there. And I think that's where we have to go.

SPEAKER_01

That's something that I can proudly say and confidently say that I have been teaching this and lecturing this to professionals and especially my peers for if not a decade, over a decade. Um, that's what I say. I always say um your website is your prime digital real estate, right? That's where you're gonna own it. If Facebook or LinkedIn close tomorrow, all your stuff will go away with it. You use those platforms as digital billboards that bring people into your site because you're not going to lose your site. I mean, of course, anybody can get hacked, but that's true in a real in-person house as well, right? Someone could come in and rob your house. Right. Um, the point is that all of your efforts should be placed into a central place and then use social media to promote it. It's very simple.

SPEAKER_00

No, you're right. And I learned the hard way. I learned the hard way, but you know what? I'm I'm kind of glad I learned it and I had fun on it. I met some wonder, there's some wonderful people on X. And there's also some wonderful experts that aren't physicians, but are aligned with physicians. And I've interviewed a couple of people who have startups that really understand healthcare. And I love when I meet somebody who's outside of medicine but gets it and they get the patient perspective. I really don't like the people who are like, we're gonna replace all the docs with AI and we're gonna, you know, open primary care and make it corporate. It's like, yeah, you're gonna go in a low margin business and you're gonna add huge overhead and you're gonna be shocked when it doesn't work. I mean, it's it's the dumbest thing ever. So I love when you get the right people and there are some wonderful people on there. So I'm glad I have my time on X and I met a lot of good people. But now I'm, you know, it's time for me to kind of get into this. What's the best way? Say if there's a new guy who's trying to promote a podcast on on uh your platform, what's the best way of doing that?

SPEAKER_01

That's such a good question because someone asked it on Facebook, and I literally wrote out 10 comments with different steps. So A, I am looking to publish it in an article so that the steps are there so that it's more obvious.

SPEAKER_02

But that's great.

SPEAKER_01

Um things so just off the top of my head, definitely building a podcast page. We have a podcast directory so that each um person's podcast is represented and people who are using it can filter it down to what they want to listen to. But also when they click into it, it opens up a you know a page specifically about your podcast. Okay. Um, so that's A. Um, B is to come to our monthly virtual networking where you can let everyone know, you know, we really um maximize that hour and it's virtual, and we really um allow people to introduce themselves in time sessions so it's equal and we have them share asks. Um we like to compare from month to month for people that can, you know, return. Um, the third is coming into the WhatsApp group and really finding the rooms that match and introducing yourself and saying, hey, this is my podcast. Another one is we have a collab board. So I created a collab board, it was originally a job board, but then it got even bigger. And one of the things that Beyond members can do is they can create a listing where they say, Hey, this is the target avatar for a guest. This is who I would ideally like as a guest for my podcast. And it is there along with the job listings, it is there as a podcast listing. And we share it in our newsletter, et cetera, and we help you to make connections so that you can get the exact people that you need on your podcast. Um, and so again, it's from both directions. That listing is public so that anybody who lands on the site who goes to the collab listings can, you know, even filter down to the podcast guests and find exactly what you need. So we help in so many ways. There's articles in our magazine, there's series that we do where we, you know, talk about issues and it's actually dubbed like Netflix, but for healthcare. So the number one thing I would say is don't discount going to the website. It's doctors on socialmedia.com or somidocs.com can lead you there too. And you can just take some time to look around and really acquaint yourself with the menu and how it works and reach out with questions if you have any. Obviously, you know, apply, especially while it's free, apply for a free membership and come in to the WhatsApp group, ask questions, attend the meetings that we have and grow.

SPEAKER_00

What are the virtual meetings the once a month?

SPEAKER_01

So that's networking. So you can literally go into the menu. There's a little networking tab. Okay. You click in it, and there's two options. There's the networking on Facebook and on WhatsApp, okay, or there's speed networking. And it's one hour where you come on and everyone gets a minute or a minute and a half to at the front, you know, just like we're presenting, but we're actually talking about ourselves, which we all need at this point.

SPEAKER_00

You know what? Something happened this morning earlier this morning. I woke up in the middle of the night, and I always do when I'm thinking about a podcast because I, you know, we we all do that. We're all crazy. So I woke up at 3 a.m. So I opened up the Sony Doc site, and I had looked at it before, but I didn't really do a deep dive. I'm like, oh my God, there's a ton of stuff in here. It's just like peeling back, it's like an onion. You just peel the layers. You're like, there's more. There's it's it's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_01

That's a misconception by my peers, unfortunately. Um, and maybe it's because we started out small and we started out, you know, not where we are today. I could tell you my vision was there. It's just that I needed to build it, right? And I'm hoping that if you build it, they will come.

SPEAKER_00

I think they will.

SPEAKER_01

Especially, yeah. And listen, especially now, we've made the joining free, which is huge. Like, you know, it really took a cut on the revenue. So I have to see if we can keep it going. If I have lots of people coming, that'll be great because that'll make the community even better. Right. It'll get us all on each other's podcast. And again, that's where change is gonna happen, is when we actually get together to work on the issues that we care about.

SPEAKER_00

No, I agree with that. And I love that you have Sam Shem there. And his book came out, House of God, in 78. And I didn't realize I was looking at it this morning, I didn't realize it came out in 78. So I I read that first in 1983. I think I was asking, I was a you know, third-year medical student asking the resident too many questions, and they're like, look, quit asking questions, read this book, and then come back and talk to me. I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01

I read it when I was a med student as well.

SPEAKER_00

So it's kind of funny, and it just blows your mind. Blows your mind.

SPEAKER_01

It was an honor to work with him. I worked with him for two seasons. We tried to do a third, but he's been, he's incredible, just a really nice human that wants to purely see change in healthcare. He's no, I agree.

SPEAKER_00

I, you know, and you could see the humanity in the book. I mean, you at first it's it's a little glaring, but then you're like, oh, but there's a humanity behind there. And one of the lessons I the biggest lesson I took out of there, and it's not one of the 10 rules, but it's in there, and it's that it's really important for young docs. If you can't help somebody, they're the terminal can whatever, there's nothing you can do, be nice to them because they're gonna appreciate that. And it's so hard for docs if you can't do something, you're you know, you're you want to just say that and just walk away. Don't do that. Sit down with them, hold their hand, and just spend time with them.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, one of the first cases I had, and this was going back, I just got into town. So, you know, we bought a house, there was no furniture in it, you know. And I met this patient, and she was young, I think she was 21, and she ended up having colon cancer. And since she was young, she was kind of pushed off. And they sent her to me, and they were like, we think she has bad endometriosis and it's in the rectum, and they can't do a colonoscopy. It's blocking it. I'm like, yeah, that doesn't sound right. So, you know, I call a general surgeon. I'm like, listen, I need to get this girl a UR. She's a bad shape, but I need you there because this is an endo. And she ended up having colon cancer, and she probably died like two years later, which is so tragic. But, you know, the good news was she, you know, she was engaged to this young man. And I mean, very simple, folks, never been on a plane. So I come home to my wife. I'm like, look, I'm gonna ask you something crazy. Okay. I said, I feel so bad for this girl. They've never been anywhere. I want to send them, you know, on a great honeymoon. You know, they want to go to Vegas and everybody, I want to do this. And my wife looked at me, she's like, Yes. Now, this is like we have no furniture yet. I'm like, I thought she's gonna tell my nuts. So she ends up going to the wedding and then she ends up paying the catering bill because they're, you know, they're short on it. She ends up paying all that. But the cool thing was there's so many things that came out of this. When this was back when you had travel agents. So we called the travel agent. My wife's like setting this up. So the travel agent's like, oh my God. So she's calling a hotel and she tells them this story. All of a sudden they're like, oh, we're upgrading them, we're comping them, we're sending them just. So everybody was like, oh my God, this is great. So everybody just accelerated. And then she wanted to go to the paper with the story. And I said, you know, please don't. I didn't do it for that reason. But my wife said, you know what? You have to give her that. I'm like, okay. So they ran a beautiful story. And then colleagues came up to me and they said, you know what? Because I read that story and someone I knew was struggling, then I went and helped them. I didn't even think about it. So it just kind of blew up. And I'm lucky I have the best wife in the world because any other wife, you're like, uh, we don't even have furniture, and you're just gonna, you know, but I was like, you know what? I was young. I was like, whatever, I don't care. It's not that big a deal. But, you know, but I really give that back to, you know, the house of God because I was like, okay, I there's nothing I could do for this girl. I I can't save her. There's absolutely nothing I could do for her. Right. It broke my heart. But you know, we went, my wife and I went to our wedding, it was a beautiful wedding. Her grandfather came up to me and he said, you know what? He was the only guy who knew that she was gonna pass. Everybody else didn't really get it. And he said, I wish I could trade places with her.

unknown

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00

I was like, oh my God, you know, and I was like, I get it. I have grandchildren now. I'm like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But that's the humanist, that's what we have to get back in medicine. And I love your articles because you have a great soul. I could, it comes through your writing. And and and physicians need that. They need the support, they're struggling. So I want every physician listening to get on so many docs right now, or you're in trouble. Absolutely. And I'm gonna reach out to the folks I follow on X and see if they're on there because there's a lot of great docs. Yeah, and there's some good the people I know who are really good accessory people. I'm gonna try to get them on there too because there's some brilliant people.

SPEAKER_01

Again, we're only as strong as the strongest voices. Being a part of Sony Docs is in no way owning, it's right bringing together voices and then, you know, combining all of our efforts um in ways that happen outside of social media where someone's facilitating it very uniquely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I I agree and I respect that. So, no, I think those are all good things. So it um, and I I think what you're doing is so important, and everybody, like I said, needs just to get on there. And what where do you want to see it? What's your kind of your future goals for this?

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'm looking to really have it evolve into bigger and better. It already has.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01

I know that I'm building more niched down um spaces. So what I did was sort of go backwards and how they suggest that you run a venture. Instead of starting out niched, I started out more general because SoMiDoS just covers so, so many topics. You kind of get lost. Like you said, you're peeling back an onion. So, my hope is that I'm now going to build like additional spaces that are much more niche down. I'm building a medical expert witness space, I'm building, you know, a swag company, again, all related in some way or other of private practice mastermind, um, PR, and publicity. So Doing things on the outskirts that really can be fueled by that ecosystem, but still make changes in healthcare that are positive.

SPEAKER_00

That's good. And the one message I'd leave all the docs with all the docs need to get on social media because we have to get our message out. We have to get the right message out. When we speak to the public, they love us. And all these people say the public doesn't trust physicians. That's baloney. They do. But we have to take the time, even if it's a five minute and it's scary to get out there and just make your first video. It's going to stink. You're going to look back at it and laugh later. And that's okay. You know, it's just that's how it is. But just put yourself out. It's a little scary, but do that. And I spoke at physician-led healthcare group last year as a social media expert. And I just got I had lots of fun, but I was telling all these, and it was interesting because they're mostly they're older than me, even and a lot of them own physician-owned hospitals, ambulatory surgery center. I mean, these were unbelievable people. And I was a little intimidated in this room. I'm like, they're gonna say, who's this busted down OB coming in here? But but they were really welcoming. They're a really fun group, you know. And I just said you guys have to get out there and you have to push back. There's so much misinformation. And the problem with AI is AI tells you what's the conventional wisdom. And the conventional wisdom is controlled by those who message the most and have the money.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So that's why oftentimes it's incorrect. So we have to push back, and we can push back with our passion. So you always have to be honest and you have to be very as accurate as you can be on all your messaging, to your point about evidence-based.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, absolutely. And I will also say, because you're inviting everyone to get on social media, I will also say that there's a place for everyone on there. But please also keep in mind that ventures like SoMe Docs create content with you for you. So it may not be your personal, you know, VA or personal content creator unless you like, let's say, purchase that package. But we have so many projects that are collective that don't cost money, that where you can just hop on. And that includes content creation. And definitely, as of late, that's the newest thing. I'm working on a docuseries, for example, using my editing skills, video editing skills to create short documentaries about different parts of healthcare. I'm going to probably invite you. Um, so stay tuned.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Of course.

SPEAKER_01

But you know, see, my suit's pressed, I'm ready to go. I love that. You look great. Thank you. Um, so yeah, so it's content and even reels, right? Doctors are like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to create reels. Great. I literally in the WhatsApp group, just recently, just like a few days ago, shared two reels. And I was like, who wants us to build this reel with you in it? So it's like we'll create stuff for our um community in order to kind of bring us together and help.

SPEAKER_00

And it's funny, I just got an email from the New York Times. They're gonna take, they asked me, could they take a snippet of one of my reels and put it on, you know. So that's so just putting, I put a lot of reels out there all of a sudden because I'm like, I'm and let me ask you something too, because I'm kind of interesting. If someone said to you, Dr. Coriel, we want you to speak on, you know, women's health struggles with menopause when they're practicing medicine, would you rather write an article about that or would you rather speak about that?

SPEAKER_01

Are you asking me specifically? Because I am not speaking about anything clinical. It sounds like you're asking.

SPEAKER_00

Oh no, but if you just had a topic, is it is it easier for you to write about a topic or to speak about it?

SPEAKER_01

Personally speaking, I find it much easier to write because you can take the time to curate it and make it sound better. Okay. Um, so yeah, for me, it's speaking has always been harder. Um, I can I can I and I'm being very honest, and I have no problem sharing that I used to have to take a smidge of of procranol before I go up in front of you know lectures. And sure, you know, I spoke, I've spoken in front of hundred hundreds of people at conferences, yeah, but still my best work is behind editable content, like videos, even videos, but as long as they're, you know, I can edit them, videos and articles. That's that's my best work.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. No, and I think everybody's kind of split, you know. I like to speak more than write. I mean, I I like to write, but it's easier off the cuff. I like to speak off the cuff and have fun with that. And I love to go into rooms and you know, interact with the audience. And I love when I go into a conference where they have great speakers. I just sit there and I just like study what they do. How do they do it? How do they engage? Because everybody has their own way of doing it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And you know, some are jumping around a lot, like a Tony Robbins, and you know, some are much more homespun, and you know, but it's just fascinating how they connect with that. So, but no, I I thank you so much for all your time. I I'm so amazed with your talents. This is unbelievable. I said three in the morning, like, this one's unbelievable. You know, and you come with like, I built this. I'm like, what? I'd be like, I built this.

SPEAKER_01

So well, I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

Give you, give yourself a victory lap today, you know. Go.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, absolutely. You have no idea how much like little comments like that, like they fuel me. So you saying that to me means the world, and it's going to help me get through my day today, tomorrow. And you know, yeah, the more people not only appreciate it, but for me, it's it's less the appreciation and more come and use it, you know. So for all those listening, it's less of it's it's more of listen to the doc and what he has experienced and know that there's even more behind it um that is happening and you might need a little help, and that's okay. I'm here to help and to grow this into something that is really um of value to my peers.

SPEAKER_00

That's wonderful. Well, thank you for that. That's a great place to close. Please like and follow for more. And thank you so much, Dana, for being here. And thank you for all my listeners. And I really want everybody to get on Sony Docs. Everybody has to do that. It's phenomenal. Check it out. I feel stupid that I didn't know really about it until now. It's one of those things I'm like, what was I doing? But please check it out and get involved with it. And I plan on getting involved. And you've been very kind. It took me a while to get my profile up. I, you know, I had to have my daughter help me out a little bit. So, but you're very kind with that, very welcoming. So everybody check it out. Please like and follow for more. If you have any questions, let us know. And then I'll put down in the show notes. I'll put down the link. If you could just send me the link that you, you know, the best link for so many docs, I'll put that in there. So everybody make it easy for people to get on there. So there's no excuse for people for docs not to be on there.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing. Thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you so much. We'll talk soon. Bye bye.