Why Most Doctors Will Never Be Wealthy (And The Simple Math That Could Change That)

I spent over a decade becoming a physician. Nobody once sat me down and explained how money actually works. By the time most of us figure it out, we've already made the mistakes that quietly cost us a decade of compounding.

In this conversation, I sit down with one of the sharpest financial minds I know to walk through exactly what every physician (premed to retired) needs to understand about money. We talk about the school decision that quietly costs a doctor hundreds of thousands of dollars, the one account every resident should be using and almost none of them are, the math behind why starting in your thirties is worth more than working twice as hard in your fifties, and the tax trap most physicians don't even know they're walking into until it's too late.

If you've ever felt like you make good money but somehow never quite feel ahead… this episode is the one.

In this episode, you'll learn:

The first financial decision a future physician makes that quietly shapes the next forty years of their life

The single account that costs you nothing today and could be worth millions in retirement, if you start it in the right window

The retirement mistake almost every successful doctor walks into without realizing it, and the simple shift that fixes it

Connect with our guest Caitlin Frederick CFA, CFP:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/olearycg/

Chapters: 

01:18 – Why Physicians Get Personal Finance So Wrong 

04:07 – The Real Number On Medical School Debt 

06:26 – Public Service Loan Forgiveness Explained 

08:45 – The Undergrad Decision That Changes Everything 

11:35 – The New $50K Loan Cap And What It Means 

13:15 – Private Loans, Death, And Disability Risk 

17:58 – The Military Scholarship Path Nobody Talks About 

20:18 – The Magic Account For Residents 

22:37 – The Bentley Question After Residency 

24:58 – $49K At 35 Vs $317K At 55 

27:22 – Why The First Million Is The Hardest 

29:40 – Why Doctors Are Bad Investors 

32:01 – The Internet Bubble Lesson 

34:24 – The Rebalancing Discipline That Works 

41:35 – Dollar Cost Averaging In Real Life 

43:53 – Why Bonds Are Different From Stocks 

48:30 – The Saver Mindset That Quietly Wins 

53:12 – Why HSAs Are The Best Account Nobody Uses 

57:50 – RMDs And The Tax Bill Waiting For You 

01:04:40 – Read Your First Contract Back To Front 

01:07:03 – Final Word: Focus On What You Can Control

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's a long and arduous path to become a physician. The whole time you're under tremendous pressure to be the top of your class in college, medical school, during residency. And this laser-like focus can cause lots of other problems in your life. You can overlook important things like financial planning, personal finance. And the problem is if you fail the plan, you plan to fail. And physicians hate to fail. We don't want to fail. We always want to be at the top of the class. So today we have a great guest who's going to get us to the top of the class in personal finance. And her name is Caitlin Grace Frederick. And she is a partner at Omenwell Partners. And she also has a huge background in finance. And I'm going to have her tell you that in a second. As always, this podcast is for educational purposes only. It's not medical advice. Always take the advice of a physician if you have any problems. And I have a few disclosures. One, this podcast is not an inducement to buy any services or investment products. Number two, Caitlin is also my daughter, and I am also a client of Omen Wealth Partners. And the third thing is, I do not have an affiliate agreement at all with Omen Wealth Partners. Now that we got all that out of the way, welcome, Caitlin. So glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Thanks, Dad. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here today. My dad is a superstar, so I'm glad that I'm able to partake in this.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Absolutely. What the thing is, I really feel bad because physicians are really overwhelmed with so many things today and they don't really have time to think about personal finance. And the problem is it really be really you need to start doing it early.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

That's right. You need honestly, you really need to start doing it before even applying to medical school. Because if you think about it, I remember you telling me growing up, I was fortunate, meaning you were fortunate that your days of dishwashing and being a waiter and being the paper boy and you saving up all that money from just your odd jobs of growing up was enough for you to pay for four years of undergraduate private school. That's just not the case anymore for undergrad. So when people go into this field, they really need to think about the long-term financial commitment that they're making because not only can undergrad be expensive, but also medical school. And then on the end of it, you have a residency program, potentially a fellowship where you're really not making significant money relative to the potential debt load. So you're right. It's very important that you go into it with a game plan from the very beginning. Um, I was looking up some statistics to see how pervasive debt is. I know in my practice, when I see couples coming in, a lot of times I'm seeing a lot of couples where both are physicians and they're both coming in with significant debt. But I mean, I've seen several instances where people have upwards of $450,000 of student loans. So I mean, it's an enormous burden and you really have to have a plan to tackle it. Um, according to the Education Data Initiative, about 70% of people graduate medical school with student loans. Um, so you really need to think about the game plan and the level of debt, um, that is the average level of debt according to the AAMC, is about $215,000. And then the important thing to note is how are these loans structured? So for undergraduate loans, those are subsidized by the government. And what that essentially means is the government allows you to defer your interest payments until you graduate. So you have those four years, as long as you're at least a part-time student, halftime student, to defer all those interest payments so that when you graduate, you don't have this compounding of the interest over those four years. Medical school loans do not work that way. Interest starts accruing day one. So that's part of the reason why it's super important to understand the debt load you can manage and have a strategy there. Um, the other big issue, like I mentioned, is that once you get out of medical school, you're in a residency program where you're maybe making $60,000, $70,000, depending on the specialty and the geographic location you're in. But for a lot of people, when you plug that against $250,000 of debt, it's not enough to pay off on a standard amortization schedule. So what a lot of people need to do is look at okay, could we do it on an income-based repayment plan? So some loans offer that. Typically, the federal loans do. Sometimes the private loans do offer that structure, but some of them do not. So it's really important to understand the structure of the repayment process on those loans. Um, the other option that a lot of physicians and residents pursue is called the PSLF, so the public service loan forgiveness process. So the way that works is if you are committing to paying over 10 years while working at um either a VA or a public hospital, that loan can be forgiven. And the best part is that forgiveness is tax-free. So typically, if a loan is forgiven in a standard situation, let's say you had a $400,000 loan. I actually had this happen with a client as part of her severance package. She had a loan forgiven from her former employer that she had taken out to buy into the partnership. That was great. But the hard part was she had $400,000 added to her ordinary income. For this public service loan forgiveness plan, that forgiveness is tax free, which can be a huge, huge benefit for somebody that has significant debt.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Now, when we start talking about this, I like to go back to the beginning. And I think where a lot of people make a mistake is they say, I have to get into the best college I can. I have to get into these name brand, Vanderbilt. And I will just as an aside, my daughter went to Vanderbilt, and she is very unusual in the financial planning industry because most people have a certified financial planning designation. And all these designations think of them like a residency program or fellowship. But she also is a CPA, and everybody knows what a CPA is. And she's also a CFA, a chartered financial analyst, which very few people are able to complete that process. I believe it's 5%, complete the whole series of tests with that. And she also did a master's degree in valuation. So she's great when people say, How do I value a practice? If I'm gonna say, I want to purchase a practice. This came up on TikTok, believe it or not. Someone asked me, is it a good deal for me to do this? And I said, Okay, here's what you need to do. You need to find somebody like my daughter who is a consultant and can walk you through that because it's very complicated and you can make a lot of mistakes. But even going back to that, I really think that for parents, you have somebody in high school, they're interested in pre-med pre-med, I would look at strong state schools. Because if you get a good state school and if they've got lots of research opportunities at that state school, there is no problem with trying to get into top medical schools with that kind of pedigree. So if you went to University of Florida, you know, if you're in Florida, USF, any of these big name places in Florida, there's lots of research opportunities. You're gonna do well. And you can start the first two years at a junior college and then transfer in. You can live at home. I know all the high school guys are, what do you mean live at home? You save tremendous amount of money. So start thinking because it's a long process. And the key is the less debt you can have is gonna save you because it gets multiplied over time, unfortunately. So if you could do the junior college, transfer in to the UF or you know, FSU later on, or UNF in our area, university in North Florida, and there's always great schools throughout. There's 3,000 schools in the US. Everyone thinks about the top 20 schools. And all the pre-med curriculum is the same everywhere. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

And biology, physics, exactly, biochemistry, calculus, one and two, it's the same. So that's the first thing I would say. Really say, how do I keep my debt down? And you know, hopefully you could pay for it. College, you know, do I have jobs in Florida, the undergraduate tuitions like 4,500 to 6,000, depending on the school.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah, it's about 6,500 now. And the the good thing for Florida residents is if you are going to get into FSU or UF, which are extremely hard to get into. Yes. Um, nowadays, if you are gonna make that cut, you probably also are gonna qualify what's called bright futures. And I'm sure every state has something a little bit different. But Bright Futures is a scholarship program here where what I'm seeing with a lot of my clients is if their child is getting into UF, they're probably getting at least 50% on bright futures. So the tuition already is 6,500. Um, Bright Futures is paying for a lot of it. What I typically see from clients that are going in, state in Florida, is the largest cost tends to be the room and board or, you know, paying for an apartment, things like that. But you're absolutely right. And what I see a lot more often, just because they happen to be clients as are more mature, is I'm looking at it a lot of times from the parents' perspective. And they're saying, what do we do? I have a boy genius or a girl who's super driven and really wants to go to med school. They want to be a brain surgeon. They're gonna be in school for the rest of their lives. So it is typically the best option to say, okay, let's do an affordable option for undergrad. That also gives you four more years for your 529 to potentially grow and for you to make contributions to it. Then use that money for medical school. Um, and the other reason why that can be exceptionally helpful, A, medical school loans, like we just talked about, the interest starts ticking day one as soon as you get it. B, under the one big beautiful bill, it actually changed the way that you can access funding as a medical student. So for the next school year, you're gonna be kept at only $50,000 a year in federal loan eligibility. So that's not generally enough for most medical school programs anymore. So anybody who doesn't have funds already saved, they're probably going to have to max out the $50,000 of federal plus take out some private loans. And the issue that can arise with private loans is some of them don't offer that income-based repayment plan. So during residency, that can be very difficult and it can lead to people ending their residency with even more debt than they started out with because that interest starts compounding. Um, it also typically does not allow for that public service loan forgiveness. Um, and then even some of the more protective aspects of it are different too. So typically for public loans, if there is a death event, like let's say um there's a couple and whoever is the physician unfortunately passes. For the public loans, typically that is forgiven and the surviving spouse does not have to bear the burden of that debt. That is not always the case with private loans. So that's something you really, really want to pay attention to. Um, same on the disability front. The disability front, there's a little bit of an asterisk because um, for the federal loans, if you are totally disabled, meaning you can't do any job, then they will typically forgive the loan. However, if you can no longer do surgery, but you can do an office job, they typically will not. Um, and then on the private side, typically will not forgive the loan. So that's something you really, really want to pay attention to. Um, but going back to the parents wanting to help their kids, um, because I think a lot of parents realize, just like you do, even if they paid for it all themselves, that's nice. It's not the same dynamic anymore. I mean, the ratio of the student costs relative to the typical salary or even home prices today, it's just not the same. So, no offense, it was easier when you did it. And so a lot of these kids do need help. Um, so for these parents, what we try to say is, okay, let's make it as affordable as possible. Let's try to go less expensive on the undergrad. If you know that they're gonna really pursue medical school, then hopefully your 529 can help them in that aspect. And ultimately, you we also try to counsel the parents to say, yes, we want to help your kids as much as possible, but also we want to protect you and make sure that you're able to retire. Because if you are going to be another financial burden for your kid for the rest of their life on top of whatever student loans they have to take, that's not really helping your child either. So, you know, there's a lot of things at play that you have to balance. It's typically not an all this or all that answer. There's typically a little bit of both. Um, but that's something that a lot of parents really struggle with because most parents want to give their kids the world and want to do whatever they can to help them be as successful as possible, which is great. But I also want to say your child is not going to want to financially take care of you for the rest of your life either. So we try to balance that.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

There's one thing that you said was very interesting. If the private loans, if the physician passes away and there's not forgiveness there, that's gonna be very important that they have a term life policy right away. And a term life policy, for those of you who aren't insurance gurus, is the cheapest way to get and a young person is very inexpensive. There's no reason not to get it, even though you're saying I'm not making money. That's a great investment. You know, you can get a fairly large policy for a low amount of money at that point in your life. And you can just say you need the term and you can match the term to when you need it. So if you say I'm gonna use, you know, I'm gonna pay this off over 10 years or 15 years, you could set the term to that. So that's the beauty of term life. Do not buy whole life for that reason. It's very expensive, it's not gonna work as well, but the term life would be a very good addition. And then one thing I want to add, just to reassure everybody, first thing is the only thing people ever ask you when you're a physician, if they're gonna ask you anything, is where you last train. And by that I mean if you did a fellowship in GYN on college, you're they're gonna want to know where'd you do your fellowship? If you did a residency, they're gonna say, where'd you do your residency? No one's ever asked me where I went to medical school. No one's ever asked me where I went to college. Nobody cares. They just say, Oh, I did my residency in Mayo Clinic. You're like, that's great. That's it. And the questions. So the smartest person that I've met in my life, I've met a lot of people who are smart. I've met a lot of people who thought they were smart. But the smartest doctor, every doctor thinks they're a genius, by the way. Okay. And and very few are. Sorry, guys, that's how it is. But one guy, I think, is genius level, went to a state school I never even heard of in Illinois. So that, and that was interesting. In my class, we had people from Harvard, from all the Ivies, and here's this guy, and he was head and shoulders above everybody. I'm not gonna mention Dr. Tom Washer. I'm not mentioning him. But anyway, and he's a great guy too. But he went to Eastern Illinois University. I never even heard, I didn't know that was a school, and I grew up in Illinois.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

I always knew growing up, if something happened to you, to call him. Absolutely. When my husband had a medical event, I made him fly to Wisconsin to meet with him because I was like, I want his opinion and he's a great guy. No one else's.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Absolutely. So that's the thing. So people get caught up in this. So, you know, keep really think about keeping that debt down as much as you can. And I I also benefit from so I was able to, as Caitlin said, I was able to pay for college out of my earnings. And I agree, I made a private school. It was $3,000 when I went a year. And I was able to pay the first year of medical school, which was $10,000, private medical school. Then I was out of money. So I was like, what are what am I gonna do? But luckily, I had a rich uncle, and that's how I was able to afford the next three years.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Uncle Sam.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Uncle Sam. So I joined the Navy, acres away. So that's another thing you can do. There's a there's a health scholarship program, and it's with the Army, Navy, Air Force, and then you have to decide which branch of service, and they all are a little bit different. You know, for instance, when I was coming through the Air Force, tended to have people work after you did your civilian residency. You graduate medical school, do a residency, then you would go into the Air Force as an obstetrician or orthopedic surgeon. The Navy tended to have people work more as a general medical officer, which is what I did. So you did one year of training, then you're out with the fleet, you're out with the Marines, because they have different needs than the Air Force does. And I have no idea about the Army, but the Army has bases in some of the worst places in America. So I was like, I don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere, where the Navy usually you're by bodies of water. You think San Diego, and I was in, I worked in San Diego, I was at Camp Pendleton, beautiful areas, a great life. Yes. I went first to Camp Pendleton. I uh we were in San Clemente, Florida, uh, California, and then we went to Rochester, Minnesota. Everybody said, Yeah, we're not going to visit you.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

So that's what happened. But the thing is, so when you're in those programs, they pay for all your, you never see a tuition bill again. They pay the school directly, they pay any books you need, any equipment you need, and then you get a monthly stipend of $2,800 to $3,000. And then you go active duty 45 days a year. So you get paid during that active duty time. And then you owe year for year. So I was in for three years, I owed three years of payback, and it doesn't include residency or training. But the cool thing with that is now you have some money because now you're not paying school, you're getting this stipend. And now you can put that into a Roth IRA because now that's earned income when you do your 45 days. So now that goes into Roth IRA. And could you tell us why I got excited when I said Roth IRA?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yes, the Roth IRA is a wonderful tax advantaged account. Um, to do a typical Roth IRA, there are income limits. So once you graduate residency or your fellowship program at your kind of real job starting salary, you probably won't qualify for a Roth IRA anymore. But during residency or during a program like you're describing, you probably will. And so the way a Roth works is you take, let's say you're making $50,000 and you're putting in $5,000. That contribution doesn't lower your tax bill today when you contribute the money, but it grows in the account tax free, meaning all dividends and interests are tax free. If you were fortunate enough to buy NVIDIA in the account and it grew exponentially and you sold NVIDIA within the account, no capital gains, no problem. Um, so it's a it is a great type of account to pick single stocks if you do like doing that for that reason. And when you distribute the money in retirement, you have to wait till 59 and a half to avoid penalties. All the distributions are tax free. So that's the kind of the magic account for young people to really focus on. And the hard part with a Roth is again, they have the income cap. So for a lot of people, by the time you can afford to contribute to a Roth, a lot of times you're maxed out from an income perspective and you can no longer do it. So if there is an opportunity during residency, even if it's $1,000, you know, get something in there. Um, what I tell a lot of my younger clients is if you can get in the habit of putting money into an account, I don't care the amount, but get some automatic contributions going, maybe on the first of the month. Start with $100 if you have to. Get something going because after a while, then I'd meet with you or you kind of check in with yourself and say, okay, the hundred wasn't that bad. Maybe I can bump it up to 200. Maybe I can bump it up at 500. My, maybe I can bump it up to a thousand. Before you know it, you have a lot of contributions going monthly into your accounts and it'll start to grow before you know it.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And that's one of the things that I didn't appreciate when I was young, and I think a lot of people don't, is the time value of money and getting those investments in early is so important. And I think that's something that I would say that any young person, anytime you can have a job, if you can put, like you said, $100 away a month into a Roth IRA, that's going to pay dividends later on. You're really going to be happy with that. And it's just a different mindset. And, you know, I think one of the things that happens is you get through with your residency, you've, you know, you've given up kind of your 20s, part of your 30s. And You know, I remember my golden birthday was my 30th birthday. I was working in a surgical intensive care unit at Mail Clinic. And if that sounds crazy, it's even crazier than you can think. These were the sickest people. And my dear wife came in with a birthday cake. I kissed her and said, I love you, but I gotta go. There's like four people trying to die right now. And you get through that and you really haven't made any money. And you get out, and all of a sudden you get a bonus and you get this big paycheck. And then you're like, all right, now it's time to go get that blue Bentley. What would you suggest to somebody in that situation? Should they get that blue Bentley?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

No, I mean, this comes up too, kind of on the flip side for a lot of times when I see people who maybe inherit money or they have like a life insurance policy that becomes available to them. The first few years are really going to set the tone for the next 30. So if you're graduating and you have significant debt and you can really, really focus on that over the first five years, you know, say you're making 300 and you're putting 75 a year towards your debt, you know, depending on how many hundreds of thousands of dollars you have, that's probably going to be paid off within five years. And you're really setting yourself up for success. Um, you know, on the same token, the earlier that you can get that money to work, the better. I mean, the single best financial tool that you can possibly have is a long-term time horizon. It's not being smarter than the next guy, it's not having more knowledge about the stock market, doesn't matter. The biggest savant who puts money into the market at 55, trying to retire at 65, is gonna have a much harder time than the average Joe Blow putting money in a diversified ETF at 30. I mean, that compounding interest, they kind of say is the seventh wonder of the world. Um, and it really is super, super beneficial. So I know we're gonna put up some slides here. I just did some quick math on if you're trying to reach 5 million by age 65 and you assume a 7% return, if you start saving at age 35, you would need to save 49,000 a year. If you started saving at age 45, that 49,000 becomes 111,500 or $111,500 per year. If you'd waited till 55, because you had a lot of fun, you bought a bunch of houses, um, you went on great vacations, you have the coolest car, your kids all go to private school, you're crushing it at the golf club. So you didn't get around to it until age 55. That $49,000 a year that you could have been saving at 35 now becomes $317,000 at age 55.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

It's crazy. I mean, it is 20 years, but $49,000 to become $317,000. It's just so hard to make up the compounding. So it really is flip-flopped between age 35 and 55. So if you start at 35 and you add up all those years of 49,000, that's about 1.5 million in actual contributions that you put in. And the compounding accounts for the other three and a half million. Where if you had started at 55, you're gonna have to contribute 3.5 million and the compounding only accounts for 1.5. So, I mean, it's enormously important to set yourself up in those first five years. And then you're gonna have this big shift. So the hardest part I think for a lot of people when they're first starting out is it's kind of frustrating and boring to watch your progress in the beginning because if you only have even $100,000 in an account and the market is a great market and it's up 15%. Okay, it's up $15,000. That's not that exciting. But if you have a million dollars in the account and it's up 15%, okay, now that 15,000 is 150, that's that's pretty exciting. That's, you know, potentially a year's salary for some people. If it's 10 million, you know, it's even better. So those first few years feels like it's taking forever to make progress. But then once it hits, you know, people always say your first million is the hardest. It is because you're compounding on a smaller number. But once you hit one million and you have a nice little bump, that's compounding on a million. So to get from zero to one million, it's probably gonna take a while. From one million to two million, it's gonna take less, two to three, three to four. You know, those time between that next million mark is gonna get progressively smaller and smaller if you're continuing to save and if you're actually invested. I would say another thing that I see commonly amongst doctors is, you know, I think a lot of them are kind of in protective mode because they've had to protect what they've had all during school and training. And now that they have this money, they're like, oh my gosh, I worked so hard. I studied for so many tests. It's taking me forever to get here. I have to do whatever I can to protect this money. So I would say that's actually kind of another big pitfall that I see with doctors specifically. And I don't blame them. It's taken them so long to get to the point where they're actually earning, is that they're kind of timid about participating in the market. And I would say participating in the market and investing is also a little counterintuitive for doctors because when you're a doctor and you're in school, you're kind of looking at the people next to you and saying, okay, I need to perform better. I need to get the top grade. I need to do whatever I can. I need to do more research projects. I need to write more papers. I need to do whatever I can to stand out and kind of beat out the person next to me so that I get that dermatology rotation. Or my husband and I can couples match in ortho in the same city. You know, so they're constantly being very competitive. With investing, it's the exact opposite. We are going for a participation trophy. You want to set it and forget it. You know, on average, over time, we know the market goes up. It's a lot of times people saying, oh, I think it's gonna go up now, or I think it's gonna go down now, or I think this stock's great, or this one's terrible. It doesn't matter. The again, the best tool you can have for investing is having a long-term time horizon. You do not want to miss any day in the market. Any day in the market's an opportunity, even if it goes down after, okay, that's fine. We're gonna pull from the bonds, buy more equities at a discount. And when you purchase those, they'll go up to a greater return because you bought down at a dip. Um, you can also do some tax loss harvesting strategies if you're in a brokerage account. And let's say you bought Coke for $10 and it went down to five. Say, okay, unfortunate it went down, but we're gonna sell Coke, lock in that $5 loss, and I'm gonna immediately buy Pepsi. I'm not saying I think Coke is terrible. I'm saying I'm indifferent. I want to substitute and I want to lock in this loss to build up my treasure chest of losses over time because I know I'm a high earner. I know I'm gonna be in the top tax bracket for capital gains. So all these losses are an asset to me because they're gonna bring down my taxes, which is real cash out the door to me. So when you buy that substitute, it grows over time. You know, eventually you might need to sell some real estate, or maybe you need to rebalance within the account and sell off some positions because you're buying a boat, or in retirement, you're selling off positions because you're sending yourself monthly money from your portfolio. That treasure chest of losses that you've built up over your entire career can be used to help offset those gains.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Well, I have seen some interesting things in my day that fellow physicians have done with investing. And it's fascinating. And, you know, the first thing that this is going back to late 90s, the internet stock boom. And all of a sudden, everybody was excited. They're in the doctor's lounge and they're talking about different tickers. And there's, I just bought, and they give me the ticker. And I say, What does that company do? Like, I don't know. But these the guy on TV said to buy it. I'm like, okay, well, this isn't gonna end well. And then everybody moved, and I saw one gentleman kind of moved away from blue chip stocks into the highest risk stocks at the time, the JDSUs, Qualcomm, all the, I mean, they were just high flyers. And if you look a lot of them, and I looked about a year ago, there's a number of them that still weren't at their peak from that time. And these were good companies. I mean, they're not bad companies, it just, you know, the valuation went crazy. So it is interesting, but people got very concentrated. People thought they were geniuses, they thought they were really smart, and as they say, don't confuse intelligence with the bull market. I mean, really, that's all that was happening. So there's a lot, and it takes a lot of maturity to learn that. And I I would echo everything you're saying is put it in a very broad base, and it doesn't matter. You can do SB 500, you can do a Vanguard 1000 fund. It really doesn't matter long term. You could throw in a few overseas funds, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

But small, some mid caps.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Yes, keep it cheap, keep it broad.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Throw it in the drawer and don't look at it until you need it.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

And somebody said a good uh quote to me yesterday. They said, intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing that it doesn't belong in a fruit salad. So I would say that happens a lot where I have my engineer clients, I have my physician clients, they want to come in and tell me this company is the best for all these reasons. And that may very well be, but you still don't want all your eggs in one basket. You want to have some diversification. If you want to be heavier on a few positions, that's fine. Sure. You just want to have a process to trim it. She joined in April of 2025, and her portfolio has gone up enormously. She had some AMD and some NVIDIA, and she didn't even have a crazy amount. I think it was maybe 25,000 of one and 130,000 of the other. So not a crazy amount today. It's about 2.2 million. You know, so it's just had enormous growth over these this last year and a month. Um, so what we're talking about with that person is to say generally want to keep single stocks maybe between 10 and 20%, depending on your risk tolerance, um, you know, how tied you are to the company. Some people, it typically is when their parents worked at the company, is when they really feel an emotional tie, especially if the parents have passed. You know, a lot of times I see people say, I do not want to sell this stock because my mom worked there forever and she's now gone. And this is, you know, my tie to her still. So I do see some of that. Um, but at the end of the day, a dollar doesn't care where it came from. So, you know, we're constantly making suggestions. Ultimately, it's the client's decision. Um, but saying, okay, if there's an opportunity to harvest a loss, let's take it and buy something similar. If there's an opportunity to trim something that's grown exponentially, let's do that just because if that one position that's worth half of your portfolio goes down enormously, how is that going to make you feel?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

And I would add that there's two good reasons, because this comes up a lot. People say, why in the day of AI and computers, and I can trade on my own, why do I need to pay professionals to manage my money? So I mean that question comes up. You see it all the time. And I would say there's two reasons, in my opinion. And again, I'm not a prof professional in this area, but just experience life experience. Uh number one is all the things you talked about. There's a lot of mechanics. If you sell the wrong class of stocks, you sometimes you have first in, first out, last in, last. There is enormous tax consequences if you screw that up. I've done that. That's how I know that. Okay. So that's the first thing. There's a lot of these things that you're talking about. It's nice that people do it all day doing it, because if you screw it up, there's big tax implications. All of a sudden you get a six-figure tax bill, and you're like, oh my gosh. So that's number one. You can think you're smart, but you're working as a physician. You don't have time to really get into the weeds on that. The second thing is, and this is probably even more important, is emotions because we're all humans. And when the market's flying, we all of a sudden have this huge risk tolerance. Everybody's like, I can go 100% in equity. I'm fearless. And really, what you are is you're greedy because you don't want to miss. It's a fear of missing out. You don't want to miss those huge gains. And you're like, I just want to be in Nvidia, AMD, I just a handful of AI so I'll in. It's all I need. And then we're invariably it's going to go down. You heard it here today, folks. It's going to go down because it went down in 1999. And everything they're saying about AI, every single thing is what they said about the internet. The exact same. You could add a dot com to your name back in the late 90s and your valuation went up. And then that company, All Birds, same thing happened to them. But anyway, so you have this fear when things go down. And they always, you know, there's going to be some time it goes down. And then you want to sell. You want to sell at the bottom, buy at the top. And I know there's a lot of great studies that show, unfortunately, that all investors trail the benchmarks by a considerable amount over time. If you look at the SP 500 over 20 years, and somebody's investing for 20 years, they're on average going to trail that by a decent amount because of the emotions. But you guys are professional, you don't have emotions. So I'm freaking out. I call and you're like, okay, it's going to be okay. Take a deep breath, turn CNBC and Jim Kramer off. Go outside. Play with your kids. Touch the grass. Touch the grass. Because if it bleeds, it leads. So everybody's going to have a negative. Oh my God, this company's in trouble. So forget all that. It's all noise to sell papers and go outside.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

Not fun, but ironic this year is especially after the war in Iran broke out. People kept coming into my office saying, I know the market's tanking. I know it's down a ton. And I would go, actually, you're up 4%. You're up 3%. You're actually, you know, breaking even. So the market has rebounded since all the Iran issues. Um, the previous year, it was the uh tariffs that were kind of driving that big dip in the beginning of April. So people, half the time, people don't even realize they're up because they heard all that news and they're like, oh gosh, the market's tanking. All these headlines are terrible. And I'm like, yes, that did happen last month and it was a big drop. And now you're actually up a couple percent. So it's interesting because even when they're up, half the time they don't even realize it. But our process, um, and I'm glad because I do have emotions too. I'm glad that I kind of have the peer pressure of my team. So I do have my money at our office. And so I follow the exact same process. And I am glad that I have that kind of extra discipline factor, because if I tried to deviate from the plan, everyone at work would be like, what are you doing? This is, you know, this is what we do. But our process is to kind of look at it within a 5% window. So let's say somebody is intended to be 70% in equities, 30% in fixed income and cash. If the market goes up and you get to 75-25, we say, okay, great. You know, it depends on your capital gain situation and tolerance there, we would trim from the stocks, buy more bonds. So you're selling high, getting you back to 70-30. So in a retirement account, we would definitely do that because there'd be no tax consequences. On the flip side, if there's a market temporary decline, we'd say, okay, great. It's the same thing as when you go into your favorite store and your dress is on sale. We're gonna buy it on sale. We're gonna pull from the bonds, buy more equities. We're buying low, selling high, and get you back to 70, 30. So that way it's a non-emotional process. It's numbers driven. Um, during COVID, where it was that January of 2020 down to March of 2020, where there's significant drops. I mean, it was probably about 30, 40% dip. We rebalanced some of our client clients four and five times because there was an opportunity there. Yes. And then when we were buying those positions down here, those positions got a significant return on the uptick. So rebalancing can be another way to help you kind of add a little oomph to your returns. And it works the same way if, you know, when you do have your first kind of real job and you're participating in either a 403B or a 401k, it's really the same concept for most people because most people are putting in money from their paycheck, either bi-weekly or monthly. And what's happening when you're doing that is you're able to do what's called dollar cost averaging because you're buying in at each of those price points. So what we say a lot of times is if you're a contributor, market volatility is actually great for you. Um, it doesn't feel good, but it actually is great because if you just have the standard upward trend, you're just buying at progressively more expensive price points over time. But if it's going like this, some of your dollars might be able to buy things on sale. Some of them might be a little bit more, but you're having those opportunities to buy in at those lower price points. Um, so even if it's in a 401k or in a brokerage account, um, a lot of times you see the natural inclination is to go, oh God, the market's tanking. I want to stop my monthly contributions. No, that's when you should be putting the pedal to the metal and getting every penny you possibly can in there because you're buying it on sale. You know, everyone loves it when their dress is on sale, when that new couch they want is on sale, the surfboard's on sale. They never like it when stocks are on sale, but that's all it is. It's it's the same exact position. And if you think about it for the market, I think one thing that is difficult for a lot of intellectual people to kind of wrap their heads around a lot, especially a lot of physicians, is sometimes the stocks go down because the market as a whole is going up or down. It doesn't mean that this individual, one company necessarily did something like good or bad. Sometimes they all kind of go up and down just based on market momentum. So it's not something that you want to try to outsmart. I mean, even a lot of professional active managers don't beat the indices. You want to get that participation trophy. You want to be consistent, you want to get as much in as early as possible. Cause like we talked about earlier, getting in less money when you're young is way more helpful than getting in a greater degree of money when you're older, just because that time horizon is the single most helpful factor you could possibly have working for you.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

All great ideas. Other things I would add is max out your 401k or 403B if you're working at a nonprofit. However, that's not enough. No, not enough. So don't sit there and say, okay, I'm gonna buy that sailboat. I got my 401k filled. That's a starting point. Always pay yourself first. No, I do think we do work hard. It's a stressful job. Go have some nice vacations. Find your passion and enjoy it. But pay yourself first. Put that money in.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Maybe don't wait until your oldest is in college to take those vacations.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Exactly right. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

That might be somebody got to miss some of those European tours.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

So there's a little bit of that. But the other thing I think that you're offering that Ollman Wealth Partners is offering now is unique, is that you have, for larger clients, you have a opportunity to buy individual bonds. Not that I buy the bonds, but you work with a bond manager. And where that's important is indexing is great for stocks, but if you index the bonds, the people who sometimes are really flooding and they need more bonds are the people you wouldn't want to really lend money to.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

So that that is more um specific to municipal bonds. So municipal bonds typically are the The class that most physicians are going to want to use because municipal bonds, the interest earned is tax free. In a standard taxable bond, all that interest is additional income on your tax return, which when you already have a high income, that's not what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

That stinks.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

So in the municipal bond arena, the indices that he's talking about are allocated based on the supply. And if you think about the supply, it tends to be states like New York and California that have a heavy debt burden. The other thing that is unique to those states, which is really not helpful if you're somebody like us and you're a Florida resident, is that they have high state taxes on top of the federal taxes. So the issuers in those states know that you can get a double deduction. So that means you can get a deduction for your state taxes and your federal taxes. So California and New York are sitting there saying, okay, we want to raise a bunch of debt, but we know that our lenders are getting this double deduction. So because of that, we can have a relatively lower rate that we're going to pay than we otherwise would have because they get this double deduction. So if you're in Florida and you don't have state income tax, um, and you can only double deduct it if you're a California resident, you know, that's not really all that appealing to you. So what we can do when we have these um specifically managed municipal bond accounts is say, okay, we want to look at where you live specifically, your specific tax bracket, and take all that into consideration when building out an appropriate appropriate bond portfolio that's the right fit for you.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

So and bonds are very complicated. And I I didn't realize till later you can't trade a bond like a stock. And if you try to individually trade them, you actually have to call, you're calling it trading desk. It's very archaic, it's very 1970s. And yeah, they probably have a COTRON and they're, you know, calling it and everything. So it's a fascinating market. It's much bigger than the stock market, which most people don't realize. So no, I I think that's great to have that level of service to give people other options with that. And I think we've hit the main things for the physicians. Always remember about financial planning from the very early days. If your parents, if you have a high school star who wants to be a doctor, you know, really try to save money up front, get them working, get them in a Roth IRA if you can, get them into the lowest price quality school that you can do, because that's gonna really help them out. And then always be a saver. And I think the people who are are savers always are. And the irony is everybody you think who has money in town usually doesn't. The guy who always has the new Mercedes and the biggest house, and you find out later that when the market goes down, they're broke. So, you know, don't get caught up with that. Really look at do you have enough money if the market goes down, say worst case scenario for five years? Do you have enough money in cash, bonds that you can live on? If you do, then you're really not worried about it. So if it goes down for a year or two, and that's usually, you know, worst case scenario, it's gonna come up. And the reason it comes up is whoever's in the White House is very incentivized. It doesn't matter what party, they don't want the market tanking on their watch.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

A lot of times people think, oh, it's the market, the market, the market. It's really just companies. So these companies are going to innovate and they're gonna figure it out. And so, I mean, the technology and the services and the capabilities we have today are enormously different from even five or 10 years ago. Yeah. So at the end of the day, it's just teams of people who are running these companies and they're gonna constantly innovate and come up with new things. So that's really at the end of the day, it's driven by people and they're going to figure it out. Um, so that's what we like to remind our clients is we, you know, our founder Glenn doesn't even like to use the term stock market because he thinks it puts a certain image in people's head. It's just companies that are ran by everyday people that are trying to innovate and be, you know, creative and figure out better solutions to give better products at better prices.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I agree with that. And that's a beauty when you buy the SP 500. You just bought 500 of the most successful companies in America. And the beauty of that is if you buy a single stock, in my experience, it's you know, you wake up the next day, you just bought this stock, you open up the Wall Street Journal, you're like, oh my God, accounting irregularities at this company. This happens. It happened with Enron, it happened with Global Crossing. Nobody knew until it blew up. All the analysts were like, this is a strong buy, this is a great company. Nobody knows. They're good at hiding this stuff. So you buy all 500 of them. All 500 aren't going to be bad. You know, that you might get an odd one. You're like, okay, well, the other ones will make up for it. They'll take the business.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Well, and over time, I mean, even in any type of ETF, you know, if you have the small caps, you have your which are your smaller companies and you're mid and then your large, and which of the SP 500 would be your large, you don't need to care about what companies are in there. I mean, at one point, Amazon was in a small cap fund and then it continued to grow and it morphed over to the mid-caps. And, you know, now it's in these large cap funds. So the nice part about it is you don't care. There's gonna be stocks that will deviate in and out of these different indices, and you don't need to worry about it. You just need to know the top 500 are gonna be in the SP 500. What do I care about which exact ones that they are? And some people do enjoy it as more of a hobby for them. Um, I had a guy the other day tell me, you know, I can't be competitive about sports anymore because I have some injuries. So now I have to do it with stocks. And I would say for whatever reason, everyone has it in their head that it's better to do it in a brokerage account because I think the term retirement account makes them think like they should protect it more or something. But the reality is if you are trading single stocks, it's much more tax efficient to do it in an IRA or in a 401k because you don't have those capital gains consequences. So typically in the brokerage accounts, we try to keep it simple in those highly diversified ETFs that are going to grow over time. And if you want to pick your Tesla, Nvidia's, those kind of things, I mean, they're you're better off in an IRA because we do see people come in all the time to get a second opinion and they're like, my NVIDIA stock is 2 million and I only have 4 million and I don't really know what to do. And I mean, you're gonna pay capital gains on it. That's kind of all there is to it. Uh, you know, there's other strategies you can try to employ, but the simplest is that.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Um, and the hard part with capital gains is you have to pay on the gains, but the government doesn't share equally on the loss. So that's another thing if you're gonna be trading. And the other account we didn't mention, which is every accountant's favorite one, is the HSA.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yes. So the HSA is the health savings account. You have to have a high deductible plan to be able to qualify to contribute to an HSA. But for most physicians in an upper tax bracket, it generally is a good idea to contribute to those. So the money that you contribute to an HSA, and actually, I guess we didn't go over the 401k too. If you have a 401k or a 403B, they're very similar types of accounts. The 403B is more for a nonprofit employer as opposed to the 401k. Um, but the way those work is let's say that you are making $300,000 and you contribute $20 to your 401k. That year, the IRS is going to look at you as if you only made $280,000. So they're going to take that $20 off of your income and say, okay, we're only going to tax you, Jim, on your $280. Then it's going to grow in the account, tax-free. So all the dividends and interests aren't taxed. Anytime you trade and there's a gain, that's not taxed. But in retirement, they're going to say, hey, Jim, remember when we gave you that deduction way back when you contributed that money? We want our money now. So when you take distributions out of your 401k, your 403B, your traditional IRAs, those are all taxed at the ordinary income rate. And it doesn't matter if that stock was up or down relative to when you bought it or relative to last week. They don't care. Every dollar that comes out is going to get added to your income. So that kind of brings up another point in that you want to be aware of the different tax buckets. So on the retirement side, you have your traditional retirement accounts, like your 401ks, 403B, your pre-tox IRA. And then you have the Roth accounts. So now there's a lot of Roth 401ks or a standard Roth. And then on the taxable side, you have your brokerage accounts. So the retirement accounts generally you don't want to touch till 59 and a half, because if you do, you're going to have some penalties. The brokerage account you can access at any time with no penalties. The Roth accounts don't help you when you're contributing to lower your taxes, but it grows tax-free, distribution's tax-free. The 401k bucket, it does bring down your taxes today. So for a lot of physicians, it makes a lot of sense to contribute to that. Grows tax-free, but it's distributed at ordinary income. And then on the taxable side, the brokerage accounts, again, you can access it at any time. It could help pay for your kids' college. It can help pay for a house, you know, anything that comes up. And the distributions, if there are gains, is going to be taxed at the capital gains rate, which is typically lower than the ordinary income rate. So a lot of times, what I also see is people do a great job of contributing to their 401k and think that's good enough. The problem is if all you have is all your money in that 401k bucket, then you go to retire. Let's say you want to buy an RV and travel the world. You want to buy a boat, you want to buy some significant purchase. If you're already taking out, let's say 20 grand a month, so your income is 240 a year because of those monthly distributions. And then you take out another 200 to buy whatever, all of a sudden your ordinary income for that year is 440. That's going to mess up your Irma payments for your Medicare. You know, it's going to just significantly increase your tax bracket. So it's nice to be able to have some brokerage account money too to kind of offset some of that and have other tax buckets to be able to pull from. It just gives you a lot more flexibility in determining how you're going to finance both your retirement and your bigger purchases. So diversification in the types of account is also really important. And then going back to what you're saying on the HSA, the HSA also reduces your income today. It grows tax free, and all qualified distributions are all tax-free as well. So they say it's the only triple tax advantaged account, meaning you get the pre-tax deduction, grows tax-free in the account, distributions tax-free. So those all have to be health-related purchases. But if you have enough money in the HSA, you can invest those funds. And so some I get the question I get a lot is should I use my HSA as I go for my purchases, or should I let it grow and use it later in retirement? And the answer is it's not the end of the world either way. Ideally, if you do have other funds, it probably is better to use those, let your HSA grow and have it kind of be your medical account for when you're in retirement. And it can be used to pay Medicare premiums, things like that. But it's also not the end of the world to just take the pre-tax deduction and use it as you go.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

And you can also use it after 59 and a half for anything you want, but you pay taxes on the distribution. Yes. So it it focuses, it almost is like an IRA then. If you just say, Yeah, I'm going to go use it for something else.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

So and you'd be surprised what it qualifies for. Like Amazon actually does a really good job of identifying HSA qualifying. And I mean, sunscreen's even on there. So there's a lot of things that you probably are purchasing every day that would qualify that aren't necessarily prescription medicines.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

And then there's also my least favorite thing, the RMDs. Can you explain those?

SPEAKER_01 57:08

Yeah. So RMD stands for required minimum distribution. So if we think back to the 401k example where you're making 300, you put in 20. So the IRS is taxing you as if you only made 280. It grows, grows, grows. Then the IRS says, hey, we want our tax dollars. We gave you that break way back when we didn't tax you a single penny on it the whole time it's in the account. The only way that we can get tax revenue from you is if you take money out of this account. And so there might be some people that have plenty of money in a brokerage account. So if they weren't forced to, they would never need to touch the IRA. So the Uncle Sam figured that out and said, no, no, no. We need to make sure that everybody takes at least something out of these types of accounts. So we're going to require them to make at least some level of minimum distributions from the account each year. So it's always determined based on the 1231 balance of the previous calendar year. You have the entire year to take the required minimum distribution. Typically, we generally say, okay, let's take it towards the end of the year. The idea being that you have the whole year for the account to hopefully grow before you take it, but you can take it at any time. Maybe you have a trip coming up or something where you would want the money sooner than later. But that's really the whole thought around it is Uncle Sam saying, Hey, I gave you this tax break way back when we want our money now. I know you're not necessarily going to take it out unless I force you to. So we're requiring these minimum distributions so that we can trigger the tax event. There are some ways to kind of navigate that. One is if you're over 70 and a half, you can do what's called a qualified charitable distribution. So what this means is you take money directly from your IRA to a charity. So typically it's just a check that's written out directly to a charity from your IRA. What this can do is it can satisfy a portion of your required minimum distribution. So you don't get a credit for it if you're itemizing your taxes, but it satisfies that portion of the RMD without you getting taxed at ordinary income on that amount. So let's say your RMD is $40,000 and you say, okay, I want to donate 20 of that to charity ABC, then you'd only have $20,000 added to your ordinary income because 20 of it went to this charity. So you can donate, it increases every year. I think right now it's at around $111,000 that you're able to QCD every year. Another thing that I like to point out to people is especially if they already have significant cash in their checking and savings, money market CDs, whatever. Just because you have to take an RMD, all it's saying is we're forcing you to have this tax event. It's not saying you have to put it in your checking account and spend it. So you can also just repurpose that money into a brokerage account and reinvest it there. Um, so that comes up a lot with inherited IRAs because for most people, depending on who you inherited the account from, you generally have 10 years to get the money out of that IRA. So what I always try to emphasize to a lot of times the kids of these people is just because you have to have this tax event does not mean that you have to spend it. Let's take it out, pay the taxes we have to pay, but let's repurpose it in a brokerage account and continue to invest this money and continue to grow it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:54

That sounds great. I remember when I first got to my first job out of residency, and there was a gentleman there who was retiring in his 50s, and a couple of his peers are coming up to him, and his first name was Jim. They said, Jim, how can you retire? And he looked at the guy and he said, Well, he goes, I have the same wife and the same house from when I came to town. That's why. And I was like, Well, that's very interesting. Yeah. So I that stuck with me, and there's a lot of wisdom there. It's very simple, but it's very true.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:23

It is very simple and very true.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

I was like, wow. And I think he retired at 55 and you know, did live fine. And, you know, he was a pretty simple guy and you know, enjoyed life, but you know, didn't need a lot of extra things. And that always stuck with me. So, you know, I think in closing, I love all your ideas. Thank you so much for addressing the debt that the medical students have, giving us some great tools for that, ideas for saving, investing, some of the fallacies that people run into. And I'm gonna give you the final word. What would you like to close with?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

I would say the only thing you can do in any situation is focus on what you can control. So you can't control the price of school. You can't control how the loans that are available to you are structured. Make sure you read them and you know how they are structured. Um, you know, a lot of times you can't control the job offer you're gonna get exactly. But what you can control is how am I going to approach this? Am I gonna have a plan? Do I want to be disciplined in paying off my debt as soon as possible, contributing to my accounts as soon as possible? You can't control the market performance, but on average, over time, you're gonna see a positive trend line over your career and into your retirement. So don't focus as much on the day-to-day ups and downs. Think about your long-term goals and simply focus on what you can control because the rest of it isn't in your hands anyway. Not worth worrying about.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

I love that. That's a great idea. I just had one thing because you you always say so many great ideas, and it just gets me thinking. When you go for your first job and you get your employment contract, very simple. Up to now, you either had the option of signing it and not reading it, going to an employment attorney, which is obviously better than signing it and not reading it. But now, if you say I really don't have money for an employment attorney, there's no reason not to take that and put it through an AI program and just say, please read that, or just read this from the perspective of an employment attorney and tell me any parts of it are would have adversely affect me. Put it in there. There's no reason not to. And then it could point out, say, well, you know what? Actually, the restrictive covenant here is terrible. It's, you know, two years, it's the whole state of Florida or whatever. You know, so those are things that I would definitely say first job, make sure you do that. I would say you're better to go with the employment attorney if you could do that. But if you say, Boy, I really don't have money, at least do the AI.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

That's gonna be one of the main um parts of the agreement you're gonna want to focus on is if there's a non-compete, um, the tail insurance for you, you know, the salary and bonus, making sure you understand that if there's a path to partnership, having a good understanding of how that would work. Um, those are kind of the main areas that you would want to focus in on the contract. And prior to doing this, I worked at PWC or Pricewaterhouse Cooper's in DC. I was on their deals team, but a lot of what I did in the beginning was reading a lot of contracts and what my mentor there, who I think he's now working at the SEC, he taught me that a lot of the important material is always in the back of the contract. So I always read contracts from the back to the front because he taught me that. Um, and if you think about it, at the beginning of the contracts, it's typically a lot of definitions. And maybe the intention is to kind of bore you with all those. You kind of are reading a dictionary version of the contract at the front, but it's really important to understand um how everything is defined, you know, specifically for a non-compete, the specific geographic location. A lot of times those terms are capitalized, which means it's defined elsewhere in the agreement. So those are the kinds of things that you want to look for. Um, but I personally always start from the back because that's how he taught me.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

That's great advice. I love that. And so we had a special addendum to the close. Thank you so much. Thanks to Caitlin for being here. And thanks to Ollman Wealth Partners. And I want to thank all the listeners. If you made it this far, thank you so much. Please like and follow for more. What I will do is I'll put Caitlin and Omen Wealth Management's information in the show notes. And they're going to have some bonus slides that will be included in there as well. So look forward to please look forward to seeing you again at the next episode. Thank you so much.