Estate Plans That Prevent Family Fights

Grief can turn a calm family into a courtroom drama. We brought estate planning attorney Jamie Miller into the studio to cut through the myths and show how a few smart documents can prevent the worst days from getting even worse. From blended-family tensions to small business complications, we share raw stories of what happens when there’s no plan—and the relief that comes when there is.

We dig into the difference between wills and trusts, and why a will still means probate. Jamie explains how a revocable living trust keeps your affairs private, reduces delays, and gives you control over how and when heirs receive money. We explore tools that matter long before anyone passes: durable power of attorney, advance healthcare directives, and naming the right decision-makers with strong backups. If you’ve ever wondered how to avoid siblings fighting over heirlooms, stop an estranged relative from emptying a house, or protect a spouse in a second marriage, this conversation gets specific.

You’ll also hear why adding a child to your bank account can backfire, and how POD beneficiaries and POA solve the real problem without exposing you to their debts or drama. We talk prenups as estate planning tools, updating documents after moves, and setting boundaries that protect older loved ones from pressured, last-minute changes. Whether you’re single, remarried, or managing a family business, you’ll leave with a clear path: decide who gets what, who’s in charge, who backs them up, and put it in writing.

Ready to protect your legacy and your relationships? Listen now, then subscribe, share with someone who needs this, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.

Transcript

Why Estate Planning Matters Now

Jaime Miller 0:00

It kind of really kind of runs the gamut. So people either want um nothing or they want things that maybe have no monetary value, but they are personal to them. Yes.

Heather Anne 0:10

You're gonna figure it out, we'll sell it off, do whatever we want. But we don't want it. We don't want it.

Jaime Miller 0:15

Yes.

Speaker 0:18

Your next favorite podcast pick starts now. Here's the Professor and Heather Anne.

Joe 0:27

Welcome to The Professor and Heather Anne. Although we don't have all the answers, we hope to encourage and excite you. We're here sharing our lives to help you to make the most of the second half of your life.

Heather Anne 0:43

So today's topic is a very important one. Something that maybe a lot of families do not talk about. It's something that we've done ourselves. So if you're a business owner, you have a family. Today's episode is going to have a lot of insightful information regarding um how to protect your family, your businesses.

Joe 1:11

So today's guest is Today's guest, Damien Miller, an attorney, will talk talk to us about estate planning. So about um uh some of the um uh well why it's why it's important to do this, the um the dangers of uh just having faith that uh your heirs will figure it all out and be reasonable together, um, and um some of the facts and the myths or misconceptions about it.

Real Stories Of Chaos Without A Plan

Heather Anne 1:42

There's a lot of misconceptions. So we're on our second marriage, each each of us we have children from our previous marriages, and I am a mortgage lender and have been for about 30 years, and I have in my business, I've seen a lot of families fight over estates. Personally, in my own family's life, it's actually happened when I was about in the third grade when my grandmother passed away. She didn't have anything in place, and she um my mother came from a large family, and a few family members went in and just took whatever they wanted. Not that she had a lot of money, but she did have a property, but it was the personal stuff, things that have been in the family for generations, that my mother and also my younger aunt that I was very close to only had a few pictures from their own childhood. And so I've seen that, and then the recent thing that happened last year was my older sister's husband passed away suddenly, and within a day because he he had he had done nothing, he had done nothing, there was nothing in order, nothing was in my sister's name. So each state it has laws regarding that, and within a day of him passing away, they were already there. His his children from from previous marriage and they were loading stuff up, and my sister's still in shock, and we're trying to figure out what's going on. We're trying to be respectful for her, and it just was crazy. They probably literally drove off with about 20 to 30,000, including his truck, a $20 to $30,000 worth of stuff. And they even tried to ask for things like we just want a cell phone. Will you give us our cell phone? Can we go into his office? And it's like, no, you're not going into his office where his personal papers are and all of his information. That's my you know, we finally had to tell our sister, this is ridiculous. We are stepping up. And um, after several days, I actually wound up calling the sheriff because it was just ridiculous. And a lot of that is they knew she wasn't on the property, on the deed. They knew a lot of this stuff.

Joe 4:15

But unfortunately, this is Texas.

Heather Anne 4:16

This is Texas, and Texas has an amazing law. Um, and it was homesteading. It's homesteading, but they all so my sister has the right to stay there until we figure out they can't force her into probate, to sell anything. They actually had, and we found out afterwards, they had no right to take anything off the property that legally was my sister's, and they set all of that up, which is a whole nother topic for me. They set all of that up a lot for uh women that are in domestic violence so that they can't be kicked off their own property. Um, so it it was enlightening, even though I knew a lot of this stuff, even though we had already set up all of our information and and set up our trust and our wills. It still was amazing to just watch them ascend. And she and a lot of it is when when this happens, people don't realize that when this happens, you're in shock. So, and it wasn't until after a couple of weeks that my sister could actually breathe that she was like, I wish I would have done something different. I wish I would have told them no. I wish I wouldn't have. Well, and then there's a whole other thing that we learned about through this whole incident was um a lot of families will set things up to avoid court and everything.

Joe 5:43

I'm gonna go ahead and share this because they've had multiple generations.

Heather Anne 5:50

It is funny in a kind of way. It was shocking at the time, but multiple generations have the same name.

Joe 5:56

And not even like junior or there's no junior, senior, third, or anything.

Heather Anne 6:01

Because my thing was, okay, if they took if they took this property, they can't change title. Well, they could change title in another state. Um, so that's a whole nother topic and everything, but uh we're sharing this because it happens. And families are grieving, and kids do tend to fight, and family members do tend to fight, and money changes.

Joe 6:27

Money changes everything, and even so, even when it's a simple, uh, simple case in which the you know the heirs are all the biological children of uh of of the deceased, even then it can be ugly.

Heather Anne 6:41

But here when it's when it's you know children from previous marriages, and yeah, and it happens, and people just you know, emotions run high, and so that was one of the decisions we decided to do is to get our wills done, um, get a trust set up uh for our children. We had uh Jamie was amazing helping us set that up, and we learned I learned a lot of things. I didn't know that, um, and we'll have her talk more about this. What was the most shocking thing for us was uh she we signed a print up before we got married. Yes, which we would not have which we wouldn't have thought of doing, and again, it's just a an an added layer of protection, and Jamie will get more into that, but um then the other thing that I think we kind of surprised Jamie with is I fortunately am very fortunate in my business to work with celebrities and pro athletes and different things like that, and a lot of times they need to hide their identities and stuff just for protection. You know, I've seen stalkers and you know things like that, and they always use their family name, and that always drives me crazy because it's like, well, people can still search you out. They can look up a trust, they can see, they can still find information. So you and I came up, we had a very hard time because different names, we do not have the same last name, and so we came up, it took us a while to figure out, took us a couple of months probably, to figure out what the name of our trust is. Something completely out of left field, completely out of left field, so much so that when we're dealing with the property in Virginia, one guy was like, I'm sorry, what was the name of that?

Joe 8:37

Spell out each word, but it means something to us.

Meet Attorney Jamie Miller

Heather Anne 8:39

Yes. No, it's something that's very dear to us. But coming up with that name pretty much took us a little bit of time. And so we just threw some whimsical It's whimsical, it's very whimsical. Well, so what we want to do is welcome Jamie Miller. Um, she's a Tulsa-based attorney, owner of J. Miller Law Firm. Jamie brings clarity, compassion, and a touch of humor to a topic many people avoid, estate planning. Jamie, let's start with clarifying the myth about estate planning, and if you could kind of explain that to us. And you do, you you you bring some humor and stuff. I try. Uh you did raise an eyebrow when we came up with the name of our trust.

Jaime Miller 9:31

Not much surprises me at this point, but sometimes the things do surprise me, and so I appreciate that.

Heather Anne 9:36

So we really appreciate you helping us and directing us. Um you never like told us we had to, you know, you told us what the laws were and just directed us on how to set things up for our children.

Jaime Miller 9:49

And yeah, absolutely. That's my role. My role isn't to make the decisions for you, it's to to talk about the pros and cons, the options, and and help draft it in a way that's clear for you and for your loved ones beyond you. That's the most important thing, is uh that it that it's carried out how you intended as well. So let's start with the prenup.

Heather Anne 10:08

Why was that? That was probably the most like, oh, wait a minute, we have to show prenup.

Prenups As Estate Tools

Jaime Miller 10:13

When I uh advise a prenup, it wasn't um planning for divorce, it was planning for your estate planning. And so um in Oklahoma at least, once you are married, uh spouses have certain rights. And it's really um problematic to try and change those rights later. So someone passes, and then if there's no prenup in place, the surviving spouse can claim certain things that maybe you uh verbally agreed wouldn't happen, but then happens later. And so that was really for the prenup. So you could uh go into your estate planning and do exactly what you want it to do because you're already set up uh with your written agreement.

Heather Anne 10:47

So that's why. So what is what do you think why people what's your professional opinion of why people are so afraid of going to an attorney and setting this up?

Jaime Miller 11:03

Um there's a few things. Um it's just death is a topic people don't want to talk about, and there's this sort of weird um perception that, well, if we put our state plan in place, something might happen, and that obviously is no basis in in reality of just talking about death. Um but it's an uncomfortable subject, and there are decisions. I really, you all, the clients have the hardest part. You have to decide, you know, what where assets are going and who's going to make decisions for you. I can't tell you that. I can advise you. Um that there are a lot of interpersonal family dynamics at play in those decisions, a lot of history. Yes. Uh, if you have more than one child, as m many people do, it's they sometimes feel it's a measure of their feelings toward their children. If they decide, you know, this child would be better decision maker than that child, um, then it gets into whole complicated family dynamics about that. Um, and cost, of course, you know, people are worried about the cost, um, and it's just something they they put off.

Heather Anne 12:00

Well, let's dive into the cost. We haven't really surprised it was not as expensive as you would think it is. And and you did a lot. So you we did the prenup, then we uh did the trust, then we did all the medical directives. Um we needed to do all of that very quickly because we got married and then we were leaving the country. So you were like, in between marriage, we have a two-stage process. Before you leave the country, we need to finalize this part. So it's not just going in and setting up this. There is a lot of documents, a lot of information.

Jaime Miller 12:39

Follow up afterward, especially when we're talking about a trust. Yes. Um, but no, I try, I I am aware of costs, and I want people to have good plans in place and not turn to um uh internet sources for plans that are are really deficient. So it's trying to meet that balance, you know, what's going to be um an affordable option for a good plan, and I need to make a living as as well.

Joe 12:59

So can you talk more about the um because you know people are very tempted now with the availability, not and not just for for estate planning, for any anything that would normally involve uh the help of a lawyer, well, whether these online templates, you've got artificial intelligence. So why should people not do that?

Why People Avoid Planning

Jaime Miller 13:19

Sure. So there is definitely a role for um AI in particular. It can be great, uh, for example, if someone wants to use AI to come to a meeting with a first meeting with me to talk about questions and scenarios, come informed, let's have a dialogue, absolutely. It is not uh consumer-facing AI is not a good grafting tool. Um remember, AI's facts come from the internet, and there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. There's some things that are correct, there's some things that are correct in certain circumstances that may not include your nuances, and then there's garbage. So if you want a plan that's you know two-thirds garbage, sure. But and honestly, if someone comes to me with a plan that they've created, whether it's with from another lawyer or from online, I will be honest with them. And if it's something we can tweak and reasonably amend, I will do that. If it's something that needs to go in the shredder, I will tell them that too.

Heather Anne 14:13

So and there's a and you ask a lot of questions. There was there was a lot of we had to get in depth. And part of it is, you know, I have two boys, he has a daughter, so you know, right there it's not even and it's different dynamics, and you know, specific um, you know, our children want would like to have specific things. Sure. Um, but also one of the things that you hear about nowadays, especially with the younger generation, and even my voice have told me, we don't want your stuff. Yeah. You're gonna figure it out, we'll sell it off, do whatever we want.

Jaime Miller 14:52

But we don't want it. We don't want it. Yes. It can really kind of rent the gamut. So people either want um nothing or they want things that maybe have no monetary value, but they are personal to them. Yes. Um, and then they will fight over this five-dollar toy.

Heather Anne 15:08

No, believe it or not, it it is. And in in, you know, I brought up my mother's family. There was things from her childhood that she never got. There was um my youngest aunt who just recently passed away last year or two years ago. She um my grandfather, her father passed away, like she was nine months old. So she didn't even have I have her stuff now, but she had like three pictures of her father. So, you know, that there's a lot of hurt feelings. This is this happened when I was eight years old, nine years old, and for years there were still hurt feelings and everything like that. So I've seen it in my family, yeah, and I've seen it with clients that oh, we're going to go ahead and you know, everything says we need to sell all dad's property and all that, and then the siblings do not agree, like, well, I don't like that price, or I'm not going to sign, I want a little bit more money. So a trust helps just because a lot of people think, and even um, even with the knowledge that I have, a lot of people think that a will just handles all that.

Wills, Trusts, And Probate Myths

Jaime Miller 16:25

Sure, sure. There's a lot of misconceptions about wills. Um, I hear a lot that people think wills don't go go through probate. Well, no, they absolutely do. That's the purpose of a will. And most of the time when people uh want to talk about a trust, it's they want to avoid probate. And probate isn't bad, um, but it is you know time consuming, more expensive than estate planning. Um, but they want to, so they want to avoid that for their loved ones. So they're not waiting for the one probate judge in the county to tell their kids they can sell their house, um, and they want some maybe some flexibility or control. Uh, I see more and more over the last few years, uh, people with adult children they have concerns about, and maybe their um mental health struggles, uh, unstable marriages, addiction struggles. And so in some cases, those adult children are not the decision makers for you. And maybe we need to put some parameters about if and when they get assets. And sometimes those are hard things to see in writing, you know, putting a drug test and things like that, or outright disinheriting. Those are difficult decisions.

Heather Anne 17:27

Well, and and and a trust kind of goes in deeper, and all of your medical objectives go in deeper as well. You're you're not if you don't have the trust in place, you don't have that one child that maybe has addiction or has a gambling problem making those decisions on, you know, again, it's not a great topic, but you know, we're gonna we're gonna go ahead and take mom off of life support because you know she's got this estate that I'm waiting for. And I know that I'm saying that flippant, but that is fact. That happens in the real world.

Jaime Miller 18:09

It does, it does. And honestly, those health decisions um are are often the hardest for people. So I'm an only child, and uh which you think, oh, that'd be easy for for me, and it likely will be, but we still put my parents' plan in writing because um it's their plan, it's not mine. And uh also these those advanced directives, those end-of-life healthcare decisions, that was the only thing they fought me on. They were like, you just decide later. It's like, no, that's not fair to me. I want to know what you want.

Heather Anne 18:36

Because even we found out when we were doing our directives and stuff, we found out that we even have a slight difference. Absolutely. We uh, you know, we're kind of like, really? That's what you want to have done, right? And he's like, yes, this is what I want. And I'm like, yeah, I know, no big deal to me. Important to know that and to have that in writing. It is, it's very important because again, especially, you know, the main topic that we talk about is second marriages. So if you have other, if you have kids from previous marriages, then they may not see the way I see it, or they may not see it the way that he sees it. So then having that definitely makes right.

Jaime Miller 19:20

So as stepchildren you get along with great now, um, then suddenly if there's no plan in place and you're making decisions that you've said, well, that's what he wanted, that's what she wanted, and it's really helpful to have that in writing, then it sort of eliminates or greatly reduces the chance of those um hard feelings and relationships that were good now or not good because they didn't understand what was happening.

Heather Anne 19:42

So and there's and again, you know, uh there's a lot of families out there that really haven't experienced this, and and that is wonderful. But for those of us who have, there is there is so much emotion and so many things, even when things are written out, um, there's so many things that you have to just getting to the funeral hall, picking up ashes or having a burial, these are very emotional things. Um I know when and it's even worse when you don't have anything in writing. Yes, yes. So there was even um, you know, at my sister's husband's um when we're planning his his all of his stuff and getting him cremated and all that stuff. There was even some misunderstanding at the table. And kind of unfortunately, I had to kind of step in and go, yeah, we're not doing that. Right. And and they're looking at my sister going, yeah, but it's okay, we're gonna do that. And she's like, Well, I don't know. I'm like, no, we're we're not. And it was just simple things. I know, again, this is very sub touchy subject for a lot of people. It was just simple things of theirs was second marriage, so kids from previous marriages. And as silly as it sounds, um, and this is just my mindset, they wanted to um put my great nieces' names in a paper that became that's a you know in the obituary. Sure. That's a natural that's a nationwide thing. Well, I think of these things, not everybody else, and it's like you need to ask their parents permission to be able to do that. Absolutely. You can't just automatically do that. Sure. And full disclosure, um, my nephews did not care for him. Uh-huh. So that was even more of a thing. Yes. And I made that comment because I don't have any emotions into this. Right. Yeah. But I'm just like, yeah, they they don't even like him. Why would they were offended? Oh no. Yes. Well, why did you have to say that? It's just a fact. I don't because I'm a matter-of-fact person. So and again, I'm not making light of it, but these are true things that happen.

Jaime Miller 22:11

They are. And I when we're having the state planning conversations, I also have the conversation about those kinds of wishes and even funeral pre-planning, and if someone can uh actually plan ahead for those things and in some cases pay for in advance, because you're right, it can be, you know, what someone, if there's an open casket, what someone is wearing. You know, the choice of outfit can be a disagreement. If it can be, you know, that versus cremation, and cremation, it can be who's keeping the ashes or are we spreading the ashes? There's a minefield of decisions that can cause um issues with family.

Hard Choices For Adult Children

Heather Anne 22:45

Yes, and and there's just so much. And and the last thing you want to do is have to make all these decisions. Because you need the opportunity to agree.

Joe 22:55

You do.

Heather Anne 22:56

And and and my sister was in shock. Yes.

Jaime Miller 22:59

You know, especially if it's an unexpected death, um, then it adds a whole nother layer too of of shock versus someone who you know is 95 or something like that. Yeah.

Heather Anne 23:07

Something that you're kind of expecting. You're kind of expecting at some point, right?

Jaime Miller 23:10

Or sudden death or an accident or a heart attack, something like that, sure.

Heather Anne 23:14

So what other things do you recommend?

Jaime Miller 23:17

And so one thing I would I really would love to see people stop doing is stop putting uh people who you are not married to on your bank account. People do that because they think, oh, I just want them to be it to be easy and they can pay my bills if I can't, and it could go to them and they can just divvy it out. Well, that that's just not the best way to do it. So I totally understand you want someone to be able to access your account and pay your bills if you can't, things like that. But we do that with the power of attorney. Um, and then when you have someone on your account as joint, it's like you're married. So that's their money. So they may honor your wishes, they may not. Then we also get into gift issues depending on the amount of the money and tax issues. And also, I have seen a fair number of times where someone's a joint account and then they have a falling out. Well, guess what? You can't get them off your account without their permission because that's their account.

Heather Anne 24:12

Or you have to shut down an account. Right.

Jaime Miller 24:13

And sometimes they've even let you do that easily. Correct. And depending on the amount of money, that may be a real problem.

Heather Anne 24:20

And sometimes, which I just read an article this um week, sometimes not even putting your kids. There's there's a different way you can do it.

Jaime Miller 24:31

What is it, pay on debt? Payable on death would be um how they would access it later. Um, because the other thing about having someone uh on your account together is you have now opened each other up to each other's debts, creditors, if there's any lawsuits, things like that. So uh divorces, they're just not something you want to do. They can access the money, like you said, through payable on death um beneficiaries that make sure you keep those updated with those banks, um, and then power of returning if someone needed to access your account um on the short-term basis if you're incapacitated.

Heather Anne 25:02

Because and I bring up, I just read an article where uh a son was just arrested for embezzling and the bank actually turned him in and called the police because they saw a lot of um unusual activity on the mother's account, and then she was moving to a facility and her check mails.

Jaime Miller 25:26

Yeah.

Heather Anne 25:27

So um, but there's nothing she can legally do.

Jaime Miller 25:31

If you I mean, so there are legal action they can be taken because if he was the fiduciary and he was not acting in that capacity, then sure, but the money's gone, the money's gone.

Heather Anne 25:41

I mean, yes, he can go to jail because he embezzled money to his mother, and so forth. And that's a whole nother topic. Sure. But um, but that money's gone.

Jaime Miller 25:50

She's not going to get that money back. So really important, we were people are choosing people that they um trust implicitly, and you would think you could trust your son, but perhaps there were other issues that maybe could have been discovered with an attorney about why that son was maybe not the best choice. I don't know.

Heather Anne 26:06

But doing a power of attorney, putting them on the uh pay on death. Right. Uh that is another way to protect yourself. Because really honestly, what we're talking about here with the will and the trust and everything is protecting yourself in times that you know when you're gone so your family's not fight fighting each other. Yeah. But also making sure all those directives are in place so you're protecting yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And that people aren't taking advantage of you in a time where you can't make decisions on your own.

Directives, End‑Of‑Life, And Clarity

Jaime Miller 26:44

Yeah, I mean it's really the whole reason to do it is you these are your decisions to make, so you shouldn't make them and they should, you know, be in writing. And then I can't make people, I can't stop people from doing crazy things, but then at least if they've done something crazy, there's a legal basis for a remedy, hopefully. Um but something that's increasingly um a concern as people get older, um someone coming in and trying to get them to change their their will or their power attorney, and you know, they bring in a mobile notary to the home and they do it kind of secretly. So you really, if if you have a loved one in your life that's getting older, you're noticing any sort of dementia, to really stay on top of that and try and and um kind of shield them from things like that.

Joe 27:28

So I don't know, this might be more you know psychology than law, but uh but how do you have advice for like how a family can just start this conversation?

Jaime Miller 27:38

Sure, it's hard to start out of the blue, and so what I find it usually starts when something has happened. So there's been a death in the family, someone's had a friend who's passed away, or a coworker, or they've heard a nightmare story about probate, or they've read an article, and that usually sparks a conversation like, gee, I don't want this to happen in my family, or how can we prevent that? Or, man, this has been on my to-do list every January and I haven't done it. Maybe it's time. Or someone is uh sometimes uh noticing um forgetfulness and or there's a fall or something like that, and then that will also spark the conversation about uh what's what's next.

Joe 28:22

And um how often should you revisit a plan?

Jaime Miller 28:29

Sure. Um I used to say every year, and that's unrealistic, nobody does it. So uh I've started saying every two to three years, or if there's uh a change in your family circumstances. So uh birth, death, marriage, divorce, uh moves, change in property, um, change in a family dynamic, like someone um adult child you were not concerned about, now you're concerned about, things like that should trigger you to be like, let's pull this out, let's revisit our decisions.

Joe 28:55

So, okay, but you mentioned move. So if so uh um a trust will be under the laws of a particular state. And so does that mean if you move to another state, you gotta No.

Jaime Miller 29:05

So, what I advise people when they move to a different state is at least get a consult with an estate planning attorney in that state for any state-specific changes that need to be amended. Um, in particular, uh powers of attorney advanced directives, you want to be sure that those are honored if you're incapacitated or in an end-of-life situation, and you may want to switch those to the new state. So, but it shouldn't be a wholesale start over. If it was valid in the state, it was done in it to valid in the new state, but there might be some state-specific nuances that you want to to update.

Bank Accounts, POA, And POD Basics

Heather Anne 29:34

Okay. So explain which your our conversation now has triggered. We need to cover updates of our address and make sure that we have everything. Sure. Uh, because we are moving, so we definitely need to do that. Sure. So we've talked, you know, just briefly here and there about probate. So from a lender standpoint, not even personal, but from a lender standpoint, that could definitely hold things up. It can. Because probate is a minimum of 90 days here in Oklahoma, correct?

Jaime Miller 30:11

Um I would say it's more like six months or longer. If there's real property involved and and that's being sold, obviously that will impact it. And then the timing, because part of probate is you have to file taxes. And so depending on when everything is sold and distributed may impact the tax year it has to be filed in. And if you want to hear a real nightmare story about probate, I'm about to close one from 2006. Oh wow. Well, way before I was an attorney. There were a lot of fighting involved, a lot of back and forth, and then a lot of people dying, and then a lot of balls dropping. So that's an outlier. Um but you six months, year to two years would not be unheard of at all. So before it's all said. Before it's all said.

Heather Anne 30:52

Yeah, not just things. Sometimes it's just even 90 days giving them permission to sell. Right. Yeah. That doesn't mean the money goes. Nope.

Jaime Miller 31:00

Money goes in its state account until it's done. Until it's all it's yes. And then the longer it goes, the more chance of people who are inheriting, maybe then they die. So then we have more complications. Yeah.

Heather Anne 31:13

Because I've had many, many properties that my buyers are excited about closing on, and then we get that call. Uh we have a probate issue. We have to go to the courts and just get the authorization to be able to sell the property. Yeah. That again is a minimum of 90 days. Now you've got buyers that are you might be losing with your buyer. You're like, uh, well, we we have we were to give a notice we need to get out of our current place. We have no place to go.

Jaime Miller 31:44

So and that's if everyone agrees and it's an easy sale. If it's not an easy sale, then we're talking about a judge approval and an auction process, and that's more time, more money. So yeah, knowing up front who oh has a title to the property and how that's going to be handled definitely will impact the probate.

Joe 32:02

So Jamie, do you have any uh anything that you'd like to tell our viewers that we haven't covered yet?

Heather Anne 32:11

Kind of walk us through the like the process.

Jaime Miller 32:13

So the estate planning process? Sure. So I really I'm not um depending on that individual coming to me and their um their um kind of wishes um I could have intake forms I can send out in advance, or some people prefer to come in and just have an initial conversation and then we talk more about details. So I'm not married to uh one particular method every time. I want it to be what works for them. But ultimately, I need decisions made and we talk about pros and cons and options. Um basically, who's gonna get your stuff and who's gonna see that it's carried out? And I'm very big on backups. So if this uh plan doesn't work because this person is deceased or incapacitated, what's next? And then what's next after that?

Heather Anne 32:55

And we did. We we went a little bit deeper than we thought we were because we just we like we we answered one question and we're like, okay, but who's next? And we're like, what? And it was like who's next?

Jaime Miller 33:06

And it's like how many people do we have to add? It's up to you happens, yeah. But the more people you you have backups, the less chance of that you'll have to come back and amend it with me later unless those decisions change. So yeah, and people can leave money to charities too. People think, oh, I have to leave money to my kids and it has to be equal. It can be whatever you want it to be. We just have to have it clear in writing.

Heather Anne 33:27

So and we did. We left some fraternity. We have some you know, some of that written in there as well. And we really appreciated that you were very in-depth with us. Sure. Really took us to those next layers and those next layers that you just don't think of. Right. Yes. And uh and we handled all of that, you know, again, in between getting married and moving for our honeymoon. We had spoken with you before, so we were already working on the paperwork. We actually had to wait till we got married to finish the paperwork. Yeah. But we were um it was very insightful, and we really appreciated that you took us to the next step and explained everything to us and didn't uh completely laugh at it. I did not with the name of our trust.

Jaime Miller 34:15

So what I would say is most people tell me that at the end of when we're concluding the process, that it wasn't as bad as they thought it was going to be, which doesn't sound like a compliment for but for an attorney it is. I will take it. Um, and that they feel better afterward. It's something that's been in the back of their head, it's been on their to-do list for a long time, they get it done, and there's like a visible weight lifted off their shoulders, which is nice to see.

Heather Anne 34:37

And that's what really for us is that I I might have approached it first about getting this set up just because I've seen. Right. And um, I also had my aunt who lived in Texas, and they were not married, and then they went to go set things up, and it's like that's not how it works here in Texas. And so you have to be aware of what the probate and trust laws are in your state, yes, and common law is probably a whole nother episode. It is, and so they did wind up getting married and they did, you know, set up their trust. But I hear so many times, especially in second marriages, and not that I would think this would happen to me, but we had to ask each other with 100% certainty if you passed away, would your children come and kick me out of my own house? That was a hard conversation to have. And so we had to be honest with each other, and it's like, no, we can't be 100% sure certain. So that's why. And that was the whole setup, even for my aunt and having conversation was you know, at the time, and because of what Texas law was, that there was she knew that you know, he's gonna come in, and the children are gonna come in and say, Hey, you gotta get out.

Starting The Conversation At Home

Jaime Miller 36:01

Right. We're selling everything. I don't know what the law is and what you uh how to protect yourself. Um, but yeah, if it whether it's a first marriage or or a second marriage, if you can't have those difficult conversations, then I would say someone probably shouldn't be getting married.

Heather Anne 36:15

I like that. There are multiple, multiple marriages. People have that as well.

Joe 36:22

And and suppose a person is unmarried, has no partner, no children. Do they do they need to be concerned about this at all?

Jaime Miller 36:31

They do, and because really a big concern would be who if you can't take care of yourself or you need help taking care of yourself, what is the plan? And that plan might be living with a uh other family members. Maybe you have friends in a similar situation and you want to plan for kind of living in in the a big house together or near each other, and there might be a community here. We have some fabulous communities that go from independent living all all the way to memory care if needed, and so those all have a cost, and so planning for that in advance for what happens to you, really, whether you're have children or not, because not everyone can rely on their children to take care of them. Um you know, people live overseas and in different states, um, so that, and then if there are assets left over, then do you have family member? Do you have uh friends you want that to go to, or do you want to go to you know, uh animal rescue or school or something that's important to you? So absolutely, yeah. And you can set the stress up to anyone.

Heather Anne 37:32

I mean, it does not have to be children, it doesn't have to be absolutely not have to be.

Jaime Miller 37:36

You can give everything to charity if that's what you chose to do. As long as I feel that you're competent and not no one's coercing you, then you can do whatever you want.

Heather Anne 37:45

And it and it happens. Yes, unfortunately, I I'm sure you see it in your business. I've seen it several times in my business where I've literally had to step back and go, Yeah, I don't believe this is in your best interest. I don't believe you're doing this just because you want to. Yes. There's been a couple of times I'm like, you have to bring somebody else with you to have conversation. I don't want your child to be there. Right. Because I need to be able to ask you questions.

Jaime Miller 38:10

Independently, yes, yes. And if you're really concerned, then there are you know services that uh to reach out to with those concerns, yeah.

Heather Anne 38:18

So it it's a lot, it's not a topic. Death and taxes, right? Substantials nobody wants to talk about, but they but they are there and it's better to be prepared. Uh-huh. Yeah. And um make sure that family members just don't drive up and then drive off all of the property.

Jaime Miller 38:40

And I'm also a big proponent of communicating your decisions with your adult children or family members because they're going to find out, and it's either from you or from me. And if you can um explain your decisions or your rationale, it usually will um come across better than uh after someone's gone, they're already upset, they're grieving, and um it it just it's a better conversation if there can be a dialogue about why we're doing this, if it's not equal or or whatever the case may be. They may not agree with you, they may be upset about it, but at least they they understand and and you've they've heard it from you.

Updating Plans And Moving States

Heather Anne 39:14

And another thing is you want to have all this in place. We're I'm very thankful that my middle sister and I were there for my sister. We were there literally on the same day that he passed away, and was able to get to her right away. Because one of the things that his family came in and did was so we're taking you back to California. They all went to California, and we're like, we're like, what's going on? Oh, well, you know, he told us that we needed to take care of you, so we're gonna take you back to California. And we're like, no, no, we're we're not, we're here, we're taking care of our sister. And it was for several days until my well, no, my sister was in a fog and she was trying to figure things out. And she finally was like, Why are you trying? Are you trying to get me out of my house? Uh yes. Which is what exactly they were trying to do. Get in the van, we're gonna go. Yes. And then we're like, where are you taking our sister? Right. We'll take care of our sister. But it was very odd. It was just kind of we're just sitting around going, you're trying to kidnap me, right? If we wouldn't have gotten there so quick. I mean, it's if we wouldn't have got what would have happened if we had not gotten there. Absolutely. Because I I literally had the call from my sister and was down there, uh, the first one to arrive, and just like what in the world is going on? And even having to, we had gone several days, and I'm just sharing this because these are things that happened. Sure. We had gone several days, we were hardly sleeping. Yeah, yeah, and so by the third or fourth day, and them just constantly wearing it down, wearing, you know, well, can we have this? Can we have that? And and I'm like, just get out of the house. Right. Get out of the house. Yeah. And then they would try to like one day they were trying to walk down the hallway. It's like, what are you doing? You don't need to go into this part of the house, what's going on? That I was so my sisters had actually left the house and they knew this, but I had stayed back purposely. Uh-huh. We changed the locks right away. Yeah. Um, I mean, like that day. But it was the emotions and everything that even though I'm somebody's just a matter-of-fact person and everything, I'm calling my boys going, I just can't take this. I don't know what's going on. And one of my boys finally telling him, telling me, call the sheriff's mom. Get him off the property. So these are it's horrible. But this is what happens. This is I, you know, I was young, but I still remember in my mom's heartbreak of just not being just for even for us, there was just a few things like there is this favorite album about the frog and the lily pad and all of that stuff that we used to always listen to at my grandmother's house. Yeah. And since she was our safe place, just not being able to have that, just something like that.

Jaime Miller 42:16

Yeah. No, death tends to either bring out the best in people or the worst in people. So we can hope for the best, but we prepare for the worst. Yes. So and more often than not, it brings out the worst. It does, unfortunately. Unfortunately.

Joe 42:29

So what happens, and I know this varies by state. So what happens in Oklahoma if someone passes away with no no will, no trust, nothing?

Probate Timelines And Costs

Jaime Miller 42:39

Then if they pass away and there are assets that are only in that uh deceased person's name, then it would go to uh it's called an intestate or without a will probate. And then the state has a plan for those assets, and the plan it depends on the family members that are living at that time. So if there's a spouse, if there's children, if there's children of the deceased and someone else, it it so it it if there are parents living, are there siblings living? So it it it it depends what that situation is, but it's basically a formula that the state has, and that may or may not be the plan that you would intend. So if you wanted to a stepchild to inherit or something, Oklahoma does not provide for that. So yeah, that's why you need a plan. So if you don't have a plan, um Oklahoma doesn't, you can't just say, oh, uh he told me that or she told me that. Doesn't work that way. It's if it's not an actual um estate plan, um then the state will use its formula. Use its yeah.

Joe 43:38

Okay. Yeah.

Heather Anne 43:39

So that's good to know. And then what is the average and and again each case is different. But what is the average time and average cost? Because we were actually surprised that it was not as expensive as we as we expected.

Jaime Miller 43:58

Yeah, yeah. So average time, I usually tell people. People give me a couple of weeks for drafts. Now it depends what all drafts we're doing and you know particular schedule if you know if I'm out of town the next week or something, but give me a couple weeks for drafts. And then it depends how long they take to review and how they want to handle that review. I have some people who uh want to just do a phone call or a video to go over questions. I have some people who want to come back in and go through it paragraph by paragraph. Um that's absolutely fine. So it's in part depends on the client and their comfort level of what they want to do. Um so you know, from a month to several months if people are slower making decisions, or I have to prompt them a few times to review it, things like that.

Heather Anne 44:40

And ours took a few months, partly because we were planning a wedding at a certain time. Ours took several months, and then we took some time to uh come up with the name because you have to have a name. You do need a name, yes. You do need a name, and it could be anything that you want. Anything that you want. A lot of times people use their family names, but it could be anything that you want. Right.

Jaime Miller 45:02

Um and oh, price, um, sir. So um I do when I can do things on flat fees, I'm happy to do that. Uh clients like that for transparency. Um we're talking about a trust, there are a lot more nuances and dynamics, so that's typically more of a retainer of the hour early rate based on time. Um so I said anywhere from you know 500 to 3,000-ish. It you know, if someone has multiple businesses or if there are state tax issues or a very complicated plan, it could be more. But that's just kind of a range. So definitely worth it.

Joe 45:36

Yeah, so so I guess so. One kind of I think misconception about trusts is that they're only for rich people. Right.

Jaime Miller 45:42

But that it's really it's uh revocable living trust, it's primarily a probate avoidance tool because probate is more expensive than that, and then you're you know, your heirs are waiting on on the one probate judge. Um, and also with a trust, you can be more uh flexible and also have more control. So obviously miners can't get money, and so um that their what's the plan for that for like their guardians if something happened? And also even 18-year-olds generally not great with money. So, what what does that look like? So, do they um get money for certain things? Do they get money at you know 25, 21, 25? What do you want that to look like? How how conservative or liberal do you want to be with with those dis distributions? Um, and then privacy. Um, so probate whether there's a will or not a will, is all those filings are on OSCN. Uh whereas a trust, unless there's a fight about the trust, the trust is private.

Heather Anne 46:37

And that's a good thing to know that the trust is private. Absolutely.

Joe 46:40

Yeah. Any last thoughts?

Jaime Miller 46:43

Um, just the the best time to start uh the plan is is any time. So there is no perfect time, you don't have to wait uh waiting for a diagnosis or waiting for an emergency. Um things tend to get left out, you know, people aren't thinking clearly, so the best time to plan is before you need to plan.

Heather Anne 47:00

I like that. I like that. Um Jimmy, thank you. Um thank you for coming and and thank you for having me. This episode is full of a lot of great information. Our listeners um they can reach out to you uh to see about setting up a trust and will for them. Sure. We really appreciate you being here. Um how can they contact you or reach out to you?

Jaime Miller 47:28

Sure. Um my website's jmillerlaw firmplc.com. I have a scheduling button uh that has my uh calendar in real time, also has my phone number and email on there as well.

Heather Anne 47:37

Nice. Well, thank you very much.

Joe 47:40

Thank you.

Heather Anne 47:40

Thank you.

Joe 47:42

Please subscribe and support our podcast. Uh we have many exciting discussions coming up. We're guests. Um, can't wait to have you along for new episodes. So join us here each week, my friend. You're sure to get a smile from lessons learned to misshaps. The adventures go on for miles. Here on The Professor and Heather Anne.

Speaker 48:14

Thank you for listening to The Professor and Heather Anne.