Getting Real about Burnout, Hiring with AI, and Schools for Fundraising

Ed and Lisa are fortunate enough to be joined by Rowena Veylan for this episode! Rowena is the Founder and Lead Instructor at The New School of Fundraising. Along with Ed and Lisa, she discusses the cuts to fundraising programs in recent years, and the new methods of education and teaching that have emerged as a result.

Elsewhere in the episode, Lisa raises the topic of burnout amongst leaders, and mentions 5 signs to watch for so you can tell if it’s serious burnout or just everyday fatigue. And Ed brings the conversation back around to AI, this time to discuss its use in hiring practices.

Interested in learning more about planned giving? PGgrowth's new membership space, PGcommons, is the place for you. Go to pggrowth.com/podcasts and click on the PGcommons button to access your 30-day free trial, or sign up for our free membership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Hello and welcome. Here we are back with Let's Get Real: Canadian Perspectives on Fundraising. Thanks for joining us to listen today or watch us on YouTube or whatever your streaming platform is. I'm here with my co-host Ed Sluga and we are very happy to welcome in the third chair Rowena Valen. Hi Rowena. Ed, how's everyone?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Good, good. You're in a unique spot today. Why don't you tell us where you are? I think that uh people will be wondering.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Hi I am coming to you from beautiful Nova Scotia, Canada. I am in a campground called Porter's Lake, about 35 minutes outside of Halifax, and I'm coming to you directly from my airstream. So we are down here visiting my daughter, and uh the nice thing about uh having wheels like this is being able to take it on the road and and work when necessary. So um yeah, that's where I am in today. Rowena, where are you coming to us from?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I am I think it's fun to go coast to coast here. I'm joining from the beautiful lands of the Coast Salish here in what certain maps call North Vancouver, all the way from the west coast of the country. So a big hello. I have to admit, I sound you know 92, but technology always still amazes me at times like this.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

It is when you think we can we can connect coast to coast and somewhere in the middle, Ed, you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yes, well, I'm in the Greater Toronto area. I'm in my home in Guelph, Ontario today, chatting away. And so look forward to having a really great discussion today about some important topics.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

All right, well, let's get to it then. And you know, Rowena, um, you and I have known each other for a few years. Um, if someone were to visit your LinkedIn, they would see that um you're working at delivering what you call uncommon education to community crusaders. You are, of course, the founder and lead instructor at the new school of fundraising out in beautiful British Columbia. I'm really curious, Rowena, what is it like these days leading a fundraising program, a teaching program, leadership? Um, how is how is it going?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

I say on a right basis, first of all, it's the greatest joy I could ever experience, but I say on a regular basis, and we say with our programming, what a fun time to have a fundraising school when literally everything's being questioned about what we do as a profession, how we do it. Um, what you know, we have fundraisers coming up being like, why does this happen this way? And we're like, I don't know, that's just how it's always happened. And let's talk about it. So I think that for me, it seems like such a push to really change what's happening in our profession. Um, and maybe kind of a lot of maybe get some of the icky stuff out just to kind of be basic and to you know raise it up to a level that it deserves.

SPEAKER_03 3:26

Are you are you pushing a boulder up a hill right now, Rowena?

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Oh, that kind of feels like it sometimes. I often say it's like a freight, like a freight ship where you're just you're kind of writing the course, but it takes it takes some momentum and it takes some patience. But I anyone coming into any of our programming will say my rose colored glasses are like permanently adhered to my face and my head. So I do feel that momentum, and it could just also be from those who we attract to come to the school because they want to see the same things and they have the same values as we do. So I do feel like it is happening, but it's an effort.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

One of the um interesting things is that the reason I met you is that you reached out to me when I ran an op ed in Hillborn Charity eNews about the closing of the Humber College fundraising program. And Ed was an instructor in that program. Um, I know many people who came up through that program, and I'm I'm still slightly heartbroken that that disappeared. So at a time when we are seeing some of our sector formal education programs disappearing, you're starting the new school of fundraising. You've been uh operating what two to three years now, I think, Rowena? Four now. What? Okay. So how did that timing, you know, what is what does that tell you, or how how did that come to be?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

We it was uh in the deep midst of COVID that I said to my husband, I think I'm gonna open a fundraising school. And he said, That sounds great. Um, and I just I taught uh through AFP fundamentals. I always did module one through our AFP fundamentals out here for gosh, I don't even know how long, many years. I taught through um our BCIT program. We have a diploma program on fundraising and and teaching for many, many, many years. I just felt that we talk a lot in our teaching about how to do something. And to be honest, nothing's really complicated. You know, we're not rocket scientists and it's not really complicated, but I just really felt like we could support a different kind of conversation about how we do what we do, but also support the person and the fundraiser. And I just can look back on my own career and think and realize that I was supported in the knowledge, but not as who I was, and I was not entirely supported to do things in the way it felt right to me. It was more prescriptive. And so I just saw an area to come in with something that was alongside what was already there, not saying they're not doing a great job, but that we wanted to do things differently. And when we see programs closing and we see low registration, the school has just been on an upward trajectory for four years. For us, a sold-out workshop is 12 people, and everyone has their cameras on, and it's engaging. And so that's I think uh kind of a differentiation of what we're doing as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

And so and what does it mean then to um kind of you know deliver a different kind of supportive message that that really sees individuals who they are instead of being prescriptive in the course content? Like what does that approach look like to you, Rowena?

SPEAKER_02 7:04

For us, it's engagement. And so when we look at, you know, we do have, like I said, cameras on, we uh we ask uh for feedback from our attendees, we get into conversations, we get into we had a workshop once, and an executive director emailed me after she said, Oh, Rowena, that one was sticky, and I loved that. And to me, let's and so I emailed all of our instructors and I'm like, okay, we're aiming for sticky. And to me, that's like the sticky conversations, the ones that are are challenging our assumptions or challenging things, and and where we're really able to be honest and say, you know, I don't feel good about when I, you know, do this part of the job. Well, let's figure out how to do that differently or talk it through. Um, yeah, so I think that if I look back at my own time, a lot of it is built over how I would have loved to be supported. And the instructors feel the same way when they come to the table.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

It sounds like in your own way, you're getting real about fundraising in the classroom.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

We are so real, and we're so, you know, we'll be the first to challenge anything and to, you know, we have to be real. Absolutely. That's what I really think that um that we excel in is let's have those real conversations.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Ed, what does this say to you when you when you hear about this approach of the new school of fundraising and and what we're seeing of upon you know about leadership in the sector and what we need?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Well, I you know, I do have uh some parallels too, Rowena, in that I uh I still teach the AFP fundamentals course. I present it every year and uh do the whole course or half the course. Usually I do half the course every year, it changes every year, so I've taught the entire thing at least once. Um, and I also taught uh as a professor of major giving and plan giving at um at uh the Humber College course. Um and it's interesting because I think one of the things, the clear the clear learning, if you come out of the if you taught in a structured course of that kind, was COVID disrupted everything. And one of the keys is, and and we actually uh talk about that internally with our group at PG Growth is how do people want to learn? Uh it's become a consumer society for sure. And so it's very, very difficult to get folks to to give up a year, and this is what the Humber College course was give up a year and become academic and go back to school, give up revenue, particularly in a sector that is two things. One is it's a transitionary sector, in other words, very few people come right out of university and say, I'm gonna go into fundraising, I'm gonna take a postgrad. They normally do whatever their life's passion is for a bit or try anyway. And then um, and then to kind of go back and uh take this course for the long term where you don't need the course to get a job, which is the other thing about our unique uh sector, uh, which is you can get a job um, especially at um uh some of the mid-sized to smaller charities and not for profits, and of course, those are two different things, but um, where you have zero, absolutely zero knowledge about what fundraising is. Um, so the question is why would I in this new day and age where we can work and live at home and I don't have to get down to um the campus, I don't have to be in a lecture hall, and I'm giving up a year's worth of time and effort to learn some of the basics, but I'm gonna then go into a job that is not going to uh immediately perhaps enhance my revenue, right? Uh coming into the not-for-profit sector is not a loop, you know, that's why they call it not-for-profit. It's not a lucrative place. So what was what was happening is at a time where um a lot of the traditional ways of doing everything, not even just education, working, um, interacting, how we build social groups changed completely the academic world, which is par for the course for them, uh, was slow in adapting. And uh, and then it was great for uh folks like Rowena and and others um who started up new ways of learning. And as uh R VP Julia Magnuson Ford often says, there are still people who want academic learning, and for that, there is BCIT, there is um uh uh TMU in Toronto, there's various things. There are some people who want to go to like conferency sort of things or the Banff course is available to them for the CAGP or the AFP fundamentals, but there's a whole bunch of people who want to learn in a YouTube environment, right? Where I can take a whole bunch of short eight-minute or 12-minute or 45-minute videos and learn from that and still do my job. And I think the academic world was slow in addressing it. So we saw the loss of some of those programs and the rise of um schools like Ruenas, which are really serving a purpose for a new group of folks that are coming in. One of the things, uh, and sorry, by the way, there is rumblings that some of those old academic approaches are coming back now. Um, it's almost like the tide has turned once again. Um, and that's because of the circumstance and a new group of learners who are coming into the marketplace. I'm really interested though, because one of the things I said over the years, Rowena, is all about um um some of the fundamentals. You've taught the AFP fundamentals course, so have I. So there's two things about it. One is I taught major giving campaigns and plan giving as one of 14 units or 16 units you had to take, which I thought, wow, and I'm teaching two full pillars of the fundraising world. Uh and the other 15 are, I don't know what they're annual fund and various other things. So I thought that was uh, you know, kind of an interesting reality. But a lot of times when we go in as consultants, we'll hear folks who are not necessarily well schooled in the fun some of the fundamentals talking about thinking outside the box. Love to think outside the box. Um, and that's a sticky conversation, but one of the things I I push back on, and I'd love to get your thoughts about is that you can't think outside the box if you don't have a box. Right? Think the box, right? You know the fundamentals, and once you've established them, then you can start thinking outside of them, right? So we used to joke that we were in the box making business, right? And people would say, What are you talking about? And I'm building you a box so that you can go think outside of it afterwards. How do you feel about that? Which is a sort of a balance of I think what you had mentioned, a real world moment, a lot of fundraisers are after. Like real world, I don't want to do that. I don't want to call donors. We're hearing that from younger donors, from younger do I don't want to use the phone. Sorry, that's a phoning business, right? Um so how do you kind of meld that that learning style, that just social style, those fundamentals, which are important baselines, I think, for everybody.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

I love that. And and we we get asked a lot. I get asked, oh, you're an Indigenous-owned and led fundraising school. You must teach decolonized fundraising. And my first response always is no, because I think to me, that's still a conversation that we're having. I know there's books written on it and there's experts in that area. What I have come to realize is that a lot of, you know, being guided now with elders from my community is that a lot of what we're doing is is in a very culturally appropriate way, but it is actually a beautiful mix with our industry and our sector, anyways. It's it's two kind of theories of relationships and the importance of relationships. But we often will say to organizations, exactly what you said, Ed. You know, we you need to under what we do know really is how to raise money. You know, there is, you know, it could be something that we're saying is broken, there could be power, power imbalances, it could be there's many things that we can criticize about it, but we know a general process to get to where you need to be. It's, you know, it's not so simple as like here, do these 20 things and you'll be okay. There's so many variables, but we have we know the general journey. Now, I think it is in everyone's best interest to learn that general journey and then figure out how they really take it for their organizations. And we spend a lot of time that phone call, um, we spend a lot of time talking about how to engage, about how organizations can then think, well, you know, what are our values? How are we leading with our values? If you went on our website, you might see what we do, but would we really be strong with why we do what we do? Like all of these different ways that we can start to adjust our thinking so that they can really attract those that care about the same thing. So I completely agree with you that you know, we need to get everyone kind of at the same in the same, we'll call I call it ballpark. I like the box. Uh, we need to get them there. And then we encourage them about how then do you shift from that form formula, air quotes, that we know is there, knowing that the more we shift away from it, the more risk we pose. But what a wonderful opportunity to then say, how do we take this kind of traditional method over here and really make it who we are as an organization? And so for us, it's really that part of it. And I constantly have conversations about the phone calls. We often, if we have multi-day work um programming in a few of our areas, one of our homework, we give homework, and one of our homework um uh sessions often is to talk to two supporters and ask about the motivation for their giving and just have that conversation. That's literally the only thing that you are going and asking. And I had to, I realized after the first little while, I actually had to say phone them because people would come back and be like, I emailed them. I'm like, no, that was not the point with the entire thing. But like phone them or like have a coffee if you can do that in the next week, you know, in a smaller community.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll say this too. Um, and we've talked about this a little bit here, and there are recurring themes that we have, Lisa and I, with with various guests that we have shared the shared the pod with us, is that we're starting to see a bigger divergence and I uh in the difference between what I call marketing and fundraising. And there's lots of marketing going on, and that marketing is raising money. Um but it's a retail activation, right? And it's important and it's and it drives understanding about who you are. But fundraising is what you're talking about, it's about building partners, and it's a whole lot easier to get a partner uh to believe in your values because they are attracted to you because of your values, yeah. And then some of those deeper societal things that charities are doing that are adjacent to the actual mission of the right they become much easier because the people that you're now bringing in as partners are already in alignment. They just need to now start having a conversation. And by the way, again, I love this phone call thing. And I came back and I emailed them, um, which at some point here, right? Is um the the fact is that partners don't want to be emailed, they want to be called, particularly partners that are providing you with the support you so desperately need. And we have to get our heads out of that other fundraising thinking, which is uh arm's length broadcast marketing. Again, not I'm not denigrating it. I think it's super important, but it's a different thing. Yeah, and we can't take again, it's the understanding of the fundamentals. We can't take the fundamental things that they do and do what we're doing, what you're talking about, because you lose the message here. You lose what it is you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

So I before we move on, I uh I would like Rowena, if you could, to just give us, you know, in in a minute or two, kind of what this experience over the past four years has taught you about leaders in our sector. Um when I throw that out at you, what are what comes to your mind? What are what are you seeing, what are you feeling and hearing about about the types of leaders that we either have or don't have, or trying to train, or um these kind of leaders who are building relationships and who are really kind of falling into the more traditional paradigm of fundraising.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

I think uh I'll I'll keep it to a minute or two, but I think that uh I think I could write a PhD on this one. I I it has been my greatest challenge to uh hold at the school a leadership development program. We have a five-week leadership development program, and I see the people who come through it and the change, the kind of the desperation of for support that they have, not in like a bad, you know, desperate, but like like the craving for support, the craving for that knowledge. And we just don't seem to value it as a sector. We don't seem to value leadership development. And one of our amazing instructors, Jen Love, who is at Agents of Good, she said one day, um, you know, if it's not in the budget, it doesn't exist. We were having an in person event for the school. And I would challenge how money budget. Contain that leadership development area. You know, we always have to do other things, but the implication, you know, the the adverse effects of skipping the that leadership development. I mean, we see retention, we see uh, you know, non we see effects on culture, we see uh, I mean, there's tons of things. Our whole, our whole industry is based on relationships. And so we see a lot of trouble when we don't focus on that leadership development because for some reason we don't seem to value it. Where the for-profit industry long ago valued leadership development and saw the importance of it. So I do think that we need that lens. We do need to develop our leaders and we need to develop them through their career as fundraisers, not just in what they're doing, but we have them, you know, when I was a coordinator, I was given a portfolio. That's leadership, right? That's like I have to talk to donors. I have to, you know, Ed, to your point, I've got to pick up the phone. This is a leadership development part of what we need early on and then throughout, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Yep, it doesn't end. It doesn't end at the it's not, it's not just launching fundraisers, but it's it's helping them continue and grow at every stage.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

Ed, 30 seconds to kind of yeah, I just want to say this, and and I applaud what what you're doing that, and I think uh one of the things that the program that we I taught at Humbert did was it developed, people went on to be leaders. Leaders. I mean, I think the leadership I want I want to use that very deliberately, leaders, people who would then run programs, run teams who are overseeing a program, run departments, run the organization, that leadership activity. We are, you know, it's a really over-governed part of the world, right? Uh, charities, of course, and not for profits are over-governed. What do I mean by that? You know, you can have a charity, uh, let's say a hospital foundation, just to give an example because they're easy. Uh, you know, hospital foundation have my five or six people who work there, and you'll have 14 board members governing them. And none of them are fundraisers, they all come from a different world. And um, you know, they're bringing in, and we do a lot of work when we bring them in. Come in, you're a community leader, come tell us what to do. And then they're like, Well, you don't need to educate your staff on leadership, that's why you have me and the board. The board will tell you what to do. So we're kind of victims of our own successes at doing that sort of thing. Um, uh, and I just want to be really clear that when we're when we're when I want to strip it down where the the education is to be a really great professional. And once you become a really great professional, you'll have those leadership skills. But maybe you'll decide, I just love plan giving. We I work a lot in plan giving. A lot of people get into plan giving just love it, they don't want to go anywhere else, they're not interested in, you know, quote unquote leading the foundation or whatever it might be. Um, but they'll have this kind of professional level skill. And I think that's what you're talking about. I think it's so super important. You're and Jen Love is absolutely correct. If it's not in the budget, it will not get spent. And it's and I always say, you know, don't tell me what you want to do. I hear this a lot. Our strategic priority is our people. We just don't have any budget to support them. And so what we say as consultants is so you don't really care about your people, right? Dollars make the difference here. So we're on side with that totally. Uh, and I love what you're doing, Rowena.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Thanks, Ed.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

I uh I love what you're doing as well, Rowena. And it's it's uh been my privilege to be part of that uh leadership program that you're talking talking about. I just uh kind of step in on one session and uh have a conversation with some other folks, but um it's something I really believe in uh doing and I think it's just so critical, so crucial to what we're doing, which leads me to the next segment. I could keep talking about this stuff um all day, but in the interests of um our dear listeners who eventually need to get back to whatever else they're doing, um, I will move it along. But it's it's related because here's the thing I just want to talk a little bit about burnout. Um and um and I know this is not a new topic, um, but it is something that is seeming to be very kind of pervasive in our sector. And I want to just talk quickly about why that is, and I'm going to lean in on the first installment of uh a series of articles that Lucy White is doing for charity e News. And uh, I'm gonna share a few um a few things with you both and see if they resonate and what you think about that. So why don't we take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit about uh about burnout in our sector and what this is doing to leadership in another end of things right after this. Here we are back with Let's Get Real, Canadian Perspectives on Fundraising. And today we've got Rowena Valen sitting in with Ed Sluga and I, Lisa McDonald. We've just talked about um education in our sector. We've we've explored a little bit about Rowena School, the new school of fundraising. Um and I want to talk a little bit with you, Ed and Rowena, about burnout. So I don't know if either of you um know Lucy White, but um she uh is actually a certified coach who specializes in burnout recovery and mental fitness for nonprofit uh professionals. And she has started with a series on um burnout for Hillborne Charity e News. And basically, this is no surprise, but um she does refer to some recent reports uh from Charity Insights Canada that come back with a number that says 58% of nonprofit staff report experiencing burnout with the figure rising to 71% among leaders. Okay, so here we are back at leaders. Why are they burning out, you know, and and what can we do about it? Um but I think that um what I'd like to just kind of touch on right now are signs of burnout. And if we're seeing these signs, if we're feeling these signs, you know, what what can we do? It's maybe and Rowena, you have personal experience with this, maybe these are things that you coach other people on, but there's a few things that um Lucy points to. So um, first of all, that often the people who are most affected are often the last to recognize it because we're talking about high achievers here, and we're often talking about leaders of organizations. So um they when they experience burnout, they're reluctant to say I think this is happening to me. They are more apt to ignore signals, and they're more apt to just kind of frame things as being tiredness, you know, not that the well is depleted. And there are uh five signs or signals that she points to in her article. First of all, that a previously engaged person becomes noticeably less present or less communicative, um, that someone who was once reliable begins missing deadlines or making uncharacteristic errors. This is one that I have felt in myself at times and I've seen in others. It's I think it's one of the more overt um signs of burnout, which is cynicism, sarcasm, or pessimism. Like we know that in this in this sector, we tend to be very positive people by nature. Um so when you see those things um creeping in, it really stands out against someone who is usually fairly constructive in in the work that they're doing. Of course, there's also physical complaints, um, fatigue, headaches, illness. And then finally, a sign to watch out for is when um a staff person or leader begins distancing themselves from the organized mission, organization's mission or outcomes. So there becomes this kind of armed length. So these are some of the signs and signals to watch for in terms of burnout. Rowena, you know, I'll I'll just ask in in your leadership program, do some of your participants talk about this? Are they already there? Or is it not part of what you're seeing in the classroom and maybe you're exposed to it somewhere else?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

We have a program where we we take people, we have a kind of a mingler. We have three leadership facilitators, then they have three workshops. And in our fifth session together, we actually leave it to the group and we have them complete a survey. Lisa, you graciously joined us as a panelist. We have three wonderful leaders from across the country come and it is like, what else do you want to talk about? Because we can talk about theory, we can talk about that, and burnout is a huge one that comes up cohort after cohort after cohort. You know, I think when we look at it, um, when we kind of critically look at it, we can go back to those leadership skills. And and Eddie, you talked about that before, you know, we were creating these leaders, but it's the soft skills that we really need to hone in on. And when we don't have the knowledge of things like um, you know, that communicate, like uh flexing our leadership um styles. Like, how do we, when do we coach? When do we delegate? Different communication styles. Are we an internal, external processor? So many things that actually make our communication with our team easier. Instead of the 10 conversations we need to have to get something done, we now only need to have three. So kind of hitting that up front. So, yes, there's a burnout, we hear it a lot, but it's those skills that our leaders could have that to me show the time saving on the other side, right? Like it's they're they're lacking those skills. So it does turn into the 10 conversations where it's actually just been a problem of communication styles, and they've not seen it because they've they they've not been taught that. That's I think where we're addressing it and hitting it from our side is that awareness of that. And and I agree with you, Lisa. You know, a lot of people that are in our industry are there because they're incredibly passionate and compassionate and empathetic, and can then often go into areas where they have a lot of personal interest or even personal experience, which is uh harder for them as well, right? They could be reliving trauma, they could be, there's a lot coming up. So I think the importance is is even greater. But with our leadership program, we definitely hear burnout multitasking. How do I, how do I do the hundred things that are asked of me each day when I don't have time to do them?

SPEAKER_03 34:10

I I appreciate that, Rowena. And and Ed, I'm I'm gonna throw to you because you know, if we're talking about let's getting real about fundraising, how do we how do we talk about things like you know, budgets and goal attainments and you know AI and managing our databases when our people, you know, our human resources are just tapped out. Like, what do you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Well, uh first I want to say that if one of the one of the characteristics of a burnt out person is that they are cynical and full of sarcasm. I've been burnt out since I was 18 and I've never seen a break in that. Okay, so anyway.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

All right, fair.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

Fair enough. But uh, but I I take I take uh I take everything that was said um and and all those points very, very seriously because um uh but I I want to you know kind of do a couple of things just so you know that uh on our other podcast of PG Growth, we did um stress and the fundraiser, and we actually did a pro bono and we did support, we did a podcast, and then we did a support group. So any fundraiser could come and chat, and we had professional facilitators who deal with stress, deal with stress in the workplace, deal with stress and family difficult situations and grieving and all these things. Um just chat with the fundraisers, bring them together on a weekly basis over eight weeks, and and just talk and and and and uh you know make sure that people knew that they were being heard and that they could also support their fellow fundraiser. We learned a lot from that. We learned a lot from doing that. Um, and um one of the keys I wanted to come back to is the difference between not-for-profits and charities. I think that's really key. Those are very, very different. We lump them in. We often use synonymously not-for-profit to mean charity and charity mean not-for-profit. There are lots of not-for-profits that do not they do charitable work, but they're not charity, they don't raise money, right? But they fit into our category. I want to talk about fundraisers and in charities or fundraisers working for not-for-profits, because that's our target audience here. Um, and I also want to make a differentiation between leaders and staff, right? Because again, leadership is you can be a professional and do leadership things, but you might not be leading anyone. You're just doing your own work, really. Um uh, you know, uh, you know, it's an incredible thing that you're doing. Uh, and you've got this professional uh, you know, ability to look at and put everything into perspective. And what I mean by that is stress, what I've found over the 30 plus years of working alongside of fundraisers is stress comes from unknowns. That for me is the biggest thing that's the problem. I don't know how to do my job. You know, I just got elevated to this role. I, you know, because I work a lot in plan giving, we have a lot of fundraisers who are voluntold they are now in charge of plan giving. They don't really know anything about it. That's not their fault, they haven't worked in it before. But the next day, people will seek out their advice around plan giving, even though they know nothing about it. Okay, so that's they're that's a stressful situation. I've had discussions recently with people heading not-for-profit organizations who have been talking about their fundraiser and saying, I don't believe they're doing well. What do you think? And I will say, Well, what are you judging them on? What have they missed their targets? What are their targets? Have they not been behaving professionally? What's a professional fundraiser to you? And the CEO of the organization, it's not their title, but I'll use that because it's a very generic thing, said, Well, I don't know what their targets are. They don't have any, and I don't know what it is to act like a professional fundraiser. I just get a feeling that they're not doing their job. And I can't tell you how many times I hear that. It's incredible. So the unknown, the unknown of what I'm doing, the unknown of how I'm being measured, and then finally, we just talked about this the unknown of my budget, the unknown of what I'm gonna be able to do. I've been in so many organizations where we're having some budgetary issue, and the fundraisers are brought in, or the people leading fundraising programs, and they're asked to cut their budgets. So you start off with a target, and here's where it all kind of comes melding together. Here's your target, X amount of dollars next year. Here's your budget to achieve it. Halfway through the year, we're gonna cut in half your budget, but guess what? Your target remains the same. How can that happen? It can only happen with people who don't know what they're doing. Um, you know, uh, so so that for me is uh this unknown factor out there is related to the burnout. And I, you know, goes right back to what we were talking about with Rowena, with you in the school and various work that we've done and um uh over the course of the years, is to try and make professionals, if professionals can go to staff and say, uh I'm you know, I always I'll bring this down to a gentleman named Dr. Edward Pierce, who was a great mentor of mine years ago at Queen's University. He set a record for planned gift dollars in the door, and he did it for six cents per dollar raised. And he was brought in front of the VP and congratulated. And he they gave him a target above what he like his record target, they gave him a target above that and asked him to trim his budget, and they said, Is that okay? And he said, No, I can't do that. That's impossible. How on earth will I be able to do that? I'll take you another quick example. Um, in 2008, nine, and 10, I worked at a hospital foundation. The markets were falling apart. There was global financial catastrophe. 22% of the world's value, uh, you know, in the banking and the financial sector was lost. Each of those years, the board of directors increased our targets for fundraising. How does that work? I don't understand it. So burnout is real, and the factors, and here's I don't know if this makes it better, Lisa, or worse, but the factors are simply a lot of times out of the hands of individuals who are in the middle of it, particularly, and that's why I made the distinction between not-for-profit and charity. The charity, the real charities, self-funded charities, they kind of get it. And I think there's more understanding. It's the not-for-profits who are agencies of the government who are looking to raise more dollars, X, Y, and Z ways, that are asked to do more with a decreasing amount, maybe even over the year. Um, I don't I don't think there's a silver bullet there. I don't know what it is to try and change that, other than who's caring about these people? We are, the three of us are. But I look to some of our and again, Lisa, the some of the themes that we come back to. You know, the associations that are speaking on our behalf, what are they saying as a collective voice? What are they saying? I don't hear a lot of it. A collective um, you know, statement from AFP Canada, a collective statement from the CAGP, a collective statement from AHP, from CCAE, from all the various other groups that are out there supporting fundraisers to say charities and not-for-profits, you have to learn what these people do for you so that you can manage them properly. So I think there's a lack of leadership at that level. And again, maybe I'm burnt out because I'm being cynical a little bit, but that's what I believe. And Rowena, I don't know how you feel about it. I I, you know, you're nodding your head. So I'm wondering if if if anything I'm saying is resonating. I'm always the bad news cop here.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

So uh everything you're saying is resonating. I do think, I think there's uh, you know, I uh I don't think I'd speak at a chair and I've stepped into leadership roles on committees with AFP nationally now. Um a good uh wonderful mentor of mine said, I have something for you to do. And so I did it. Um and I at the leadership retreat last year said, I feel like when I feel like there's space that organizations like this can go out and start to change public perception. You know, we should be opening, you know, our Canadian Living Magazine, and there's an article there. I'm overly opinionated on that as fundraisers, we get together and talk to each other about the same things all the time. Um, where we need to be talking to each other about different things, we need to bring in outside perspectives to help us. We don't need to be talking to each other about the same things. And we do, if we are going to see uh the public's perception shift, we have to be in charge of that. And it can't, the onus can't be on individual organizations to do that because they don't have time because. budgets were just increased because they made the budget last year. So like who is speaking on behalf of the industry in that way?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

So I think, you know, um thank you for that comment and and for both of you. I we do revisit you know similar topics um some episode to episode because there does seem to be just certain agreement you know about some of the issues that we are trying to solve in this sector. And I I think the hope is that um more conversation more people weighing in different finding different ways to tackle similar problems which is I think what New School of Fundraising is is doing. And you know even the conversations that are happening on this podcast that those who listen if they take away a nugget and bring it back to their teams and do something a little bit differently then that's a good start. And that's certainly what I do in charity eNews as well trying to kind of platform different voices, different ideas, thoughts and and all of that. And and um you know there's just so many good points that you both raise as part of the burnout discussion.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

And in the interest of time I can't really go back and reiterate it but I I would love to uh because I think there is some good learning that that we can start to do to support um our professionals um our leaders uh in having better knowledge more awareness less you know um insecurities because that that they're being communicated with in a in a more fulsome way anyways um love it thank you we have one more segment to go and we have been chatty today so uh let's get right to it right after this break we'll be right back thank you for sticking with us you are with the let's get real Canadian perspectives on fundraising and we're coming into our last segment here with Ed Rowena and I and and Ed you had something a little different for you uh that you wanted to talk to us about this week we have talked about AI but you want to talk about it um as when it should or shouldn't be used as a tool for hiring what what are you thinking about this week on yeah and this uh it there's a couple of things one is Lisa you're right we did a podcast a while ago about AI and AI coming into the work world it's look frankly we are machine learning is allowing us to have this this cross country discussion right now so there is a tool to be used here i'm not I'm not a Luddite I'm not pretending that it's not here and we're not using we're using it right now but uh the AI discussion we had was how do charities differentiate themselves by by ensuring that we get the right human balance between uh people working for the charity and utilizing the tool of AI again which is essentially machine learning it's like using computers in an advanced way frankly uh how do we balance that so um you know that for me is really important uh and then I was prompted by some real you know real world examples examples outside of fundraising over the weekend where um a few people from the tech world were giving commencement speeches uh which happens often at universities they invite some uh you know important person someone of of um renown or well known to come and give the address to the the graduating class and three of these people were from the tech world all of them mentioned ai uh and how it's going to come into the work world and they were all roundly booed so graduates leaving are are not buying it talk about burnout cynicism and sarcasm has already begun because they see this as and what I thought thought was really interesting was the response by some of the or all three of these people where they began to lecture and almost berate the graduates that they just had to deal with it just have to deal with it. It's coming no we don't we don't have to deal with it and I want to kind of channel Ken Wyman here and for some of you may know Ken Wyman some may not but Ken Wyman was the director of the Humber College School of Fundraising for many years well known consultant uh in and around the Toronto and Greater Toronto area but spoke across the country and has friends and colleagues across the country and a few years back he challenged um organizations charitable organizations when they were hiring fundraisers to put down the salary range that was often hidden in the background and it was just essentially public shaming that Ken did and suddenly a lot of job boards were saying that you could not post your job here if you did not put at least the salary range in uh and so Ken did some great work. So there are some stats on on hiring um that I want to kind of think about first and then put my challenge in. So 30% of Canadian companies and this will start trickling down to charities are using this as an initial screening AI is an initial screening activity. So and I hear this from practitioners professionals who are saying I'm super qualified for that job and they didn't even call me for interview because a chatbot was looking at sorry uh AI was looking at their resume and then a chatbot was actually interacting with them in terms of the initial screening process. You have these highly qualified individuals passionate individuals we've talked about that well schooled maybe they're graduates of the new school of fundraising put their their resume in and they want to be treated like in a human respectful way and what do they get they get silence ghosting because of chatbot and frankly the response always from recruiting companies and people like this we get so many applicants. Yeah you do you get lots of applicants just like you get lots of people want to use your service and by the way lots of people who make donations to you you treat them I hope better than you're treating these people applying maybe not I don't know but here's the challenge I think if you're hiring for a fundraiser that you're asking to pick up the phone talk to donors maybe you ought to treat them in a humane way when you're hiring them and make sure it's a human being who screens their resume it's a human being who gives them a call and interviews them. And it's a human being who gives them if they're they fail to move forward in the process a reason why they didn't get that so they can be better professionals and be better prepared for the next job. That's I it's short and sweet the expectation ought to be charities need to rise above this and by the way guess what in response to this AI activity more and more individuals are actually having their cover letter and their resume written by AI so one of the first questions you can ask is you know on both sides of this did ai look at my resume first and foremost I can ask that question and vice versa did you have AI write your write your resume for you know these are moments not of value judgments but of honesty and authenticity and I think that's what we need to get at so that's my challenge I'm gonna start it here and I'm gonna kind of work this along with some of my other challenges Lisa over the next little while but I think we need to be more human here's a way we can do that.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Well if not in the nonprofit sector in philanthropy then then where I would ask but Rowena any initial thoughts or response to Ed's challenge and his call?

SPEAKER_02 52:45

I mean I think we have to walk the talk in all ways you know that that is another way I think um we actually have a AI workshop at the school because I feel like it is an area where you don't have you know you can hate it you could love it you could use it you could not but it's a little bit of that box again Ed right like give yourself the knowledge to be able to know what your decision is right rather than that kind of knee-jerk reaction but at least educate yourself enough in it to to know where you can fit it in in ways that really um are appropriate in our industry right organizations should have AI policies they should be looking at things like that these should be conversations at the board because it's not like you can stick your head in the sand and it doesn't exist. So much to your point better to be at least um you know in the conversation and and I I put a I was applying for I was applying for something recently and on the application it said the use of I think it was a board or something it said the use of AI is uh encouraged in your application and uh and any AI tools is encouraged in your application and um I thought it was interesting. I hadn't seen that before um but much to your point it's it's about like really putting things out there and being more transparent on that side as well.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

And in particular with hiring practices, I mean across the board uh you know Ken's challenge that many years ago I mean it's not that long ago that we weren't even doing the basics of listing our what should have been fair wage salaries for our staff. You know, are we 100% there yet? Sadly I don't think so but at least we're getting there. You're right Rowena there's no sticking our head in the sand about this um we have to be on board nonprof okay right charitable organizations in particular um I'll correct myself there Ed you know need to um you know need to be part of the positive change need to be part of the conversation need to be having it so I um I think that uh AI is one of those things that um we better get on board and understand understand the box and we've come up with some really good kind of analogies today in this conversation you know know what the box is before you can like jump out of it or know what it is so that you're making intentional decisions about how you use it what tools you're pulling out of it and what you're leaving in there. So um on that note unless anyone has anything burning to add to our final statements Ed I'm looking at you no I'm all good I just said what I needed to say. All right and Rowena it's been an absolute pleasure we're gonna take a final break and then we're gonna come back with our little segment that we'd like to sign off with called Let's Be Charitable and uh this is where we just give uh a tip of the hat or a nod or a way to go to people places things events whatever it is um something you've seen in the sector in this last week that you want to give a little cheer and a shout out to so we'll wrap that up in just a couple of minutes time we are back for our final take of let's get real this is our let's be charitable segment ed do you want to start things off for us today yes and I know this is um a Canadian show focused on Canadians but I did want to bring up McKenzie Scott now for those of you who don't know who McKenzie Scott is she was the former uh spouse of Jeff Bezos of Amazon fame one of the wealthiest people in the world when they broke up because she was on the journey with him uh from starting the company to uh the moment they split she actually did receive an equitable split half the half their wealth that they grew together it was billions of dollars I think 37 billion dollars was her final settlement uh which is a lot of money um and she started giving it away almost immediately and she's given away something like 60 to 70 percent of the initial settlement think about that billions and billions of dollars well the latest estimates of her wealth is that she is worth about 40 billion dollars so even though she's given away lots and lots of money she's still doing really well and there's that old adage do good and you'll do well something around you know you think about it.

SPEAKER_00 58:02

So the notion of hoarding cash the notion of not being involved the notion of these things which we see on a daily basis is proven to be incorrect do good and you'll do well and uh so a shout out to not just her but all philanthropists who act in this way who who decide I'm going to give to the community whatever part of the community that really drives their passion uh because they'll end up doing well uh by doing good and um I know that's a writ large you know wouldn't wouldn't we all like to be in a position where we have that much money to decide what to do with it what would we do is like winning the lottery to a certain degree in terms of if I were to win, what would I do with all this money? But it's proven by her and others that if you do good things in the community uh it's not going to diminish who you are it's not going to diminish your standing it's going to make the world a better place and you a better person. So well done to her and all those philanthropists.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

Amazing Rowena mine is I'm gonna go a little bit forward facing yet back facing. So I looked ahead in my calendar for the week and I saw Thursday night I have a social engagement with two wonderful people uh David Love and uh I know there's different David Loves in our industry as well.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

This is not Jennifer Jen loves oh this is a different David Loves this is a different David Loves that's the one thing you don't run across many Ed Sluga's in our business. Right?

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Like there's Jennifer Johnstone and so David was my first uh instructor at BCIT before he even got into fundraising in 2000 we think it was 2002 and I met Jennifer Johnstone who taught our ethics um section of that workshop and just we have been in touch now for so long David teaches for the he's retired and he teaches for my school and Jennifer is a mentor and I just you know I want to shout out for community and I really the community is around us and the people who really are passionate about our sector and about success and about support and succeeding and helping they're still there and they're still they're still in our corner they're still willing to have conversations and get together and have a drink or a coffee or a bite to eat or meet up on Zoom and I think that when we look at things like burnout and um you know the lack of community I think you we can actually push ourselves. I think the community is still there you just have to find it. And so um shout out to David and Jennifer for being in my community still after all these years.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

Oh I love that community is so uh it is so important and it is such a part of what we do and I think it's part of what um you know fills our cup and and fuels us forward. The other thing that fuels us forward is I think you know our heroes uh which is part of that and so I'm gonna give a shout out as I often do on a semi-regular basis but to the Terry Fox Run organization. So the Terry Fox Run was one of my um first informative experiences working in the sector I had the privilege of working with Terry's brother Daryl who became a friend as well as his mom Betty Fox who was you know still touring and talking to groups and it it really um changed my frame for you know what it meant to um to give and to make an impact and so the point in particular that brought them onto my radar this week was in fact that this is a again the difference perhaps between marketing and fundraising but there's some marketing that they're doing really well around their 2026 campaign which is just finish it. And uh they've got a really cool shirt design out they've got you know Canadians who you would know uh from across the country who are helping to promote it and get the word out so I'm just gonna give a big shout out to one of my favorite charities one of my all-time heroes the Terry Fox Foundation the work they're doing in the name of Terry Fox and if you haven't seen the shirt for 2026 have a look at it um let's finish it it's just it's just really uh amazing and uh continues to inspire so that's my let's be charitable and that is a wrap for the week what a pleasure Rowena Valen thank you for joining us Ed Cynicism maybe burnout to be explored on future podcasts um I'm Lisa McDonald it's a pleasure to speak to you all thank you to our producer Jody Barron Sluga who is the one who cleans all this up and makes us sound like we know what we're doing until next time we'll speak to you then