Getting Real about Your Legacy

What will people remember about you after you die? This is the title of a BBC article from this past May, and also the topic of this week’s Let’s Get Real. Peggy Killeen joins Ed and Lisa on the pod as they break down this article, and discuss the idea of “legacy” in relation to planned giving. This bite-sized episode is perfect to enjoy in between your Summer plans! And keep an eye out in the next few weeks for Part 2 of our episode with Peggy.

You can read the BBC article here: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260522-why-do-we-want-to-be-remembered-after-we-die 

Interested in learning more about planned giving? PGgrowth's new membership space, PGcommons, is the place for you. Go to pggrowth.com/podcasts and click on the PGcommons button to access your 30-day free trial, or sign up for our free membership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Hello and welcome back to Let's Get Real: Canadian Perspectives on Fundraising. I am Lisa McDonald and I'm the editor of Hillborn Charity eNews. And with me here is as my co-host is Ed Sluga, PG Growth, and we are thrilled to welcome back for the third time on-demand performance from uh his PG Growth colleague, Peggy Clean.

unknown 0:34

Hi.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Welcome. Good to be here again.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yeah, for third time lucky. Yeah. Well done.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I am lucky.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

We better watch it, Peggy. This could become a permanent thing. I'm just saying. All right. So we have uh we have some interesting things to talk about today, folks. Um, and we're gonna lead off with you, Peggy. Um all things legacy giving, this passion area of yours. Take us into it. What what has got your attention this week that we're gonna be speaking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Good. Well, what got my attention is um an article um that was uh part of a BBC um report called What Will People Remember About You After You Die? Um, thinking about your legacy now could be good for you. So um actually Ed passed this article on to me, very fascinated by it. Um, and I think that it's a good thing to talk about just as a kind of, I guess, validation of some of the things that we in Plan Giving talk about quite a lot. But I think what this article is doing is actually giving us that validation. And um, the article focuses on the effects on your mental health when you think about your legacy. Um and uh this is legacy in general, so they don't they don't particularly focus on plan giving, for example, but um obviously that's the first thing that we think about. Um, and what you know, for us in in plan giving, we know that many people still think that what we do is about money and tax strategy. Still one of the things that people think um when they think about plan giving. But we know that underneath it that there's much more uh going on, um, human stuff going on. People are wanting to know uh that their life mattered. So uh one of the strongest ideas in the article is that legacy is not just about money, and they broke it into the research, they broke it into three categories: biological legacy, um, material legacy, and values legacy. And values obviously is the one that we think about a lot, but I just wanted to talk about what people, you know, to kind of give you the idea of what the mental health component is. The biological legacy is about how your biological legacy are your descendants if you have children, um the family that you leave behind. And it also, interestingly enough, for me, anyway, I don't know about any of you, but includes your physical body. So maybe others who who are listening to us here and work at hospital foundations or medical um departments in in universities, uh, it it's really we got a lot of calls. I've worked at two hospital foundations that were related to to university, and we get lots of calls asking us, it's a foundation, we're raising money, but people would ask how to leave their bodies. Um it was so often that I actually uh created a process because we we looked into it, we didn't do that, we don't accept bodies. Um so we we created a process and found out what could be done and what people had to do and show them how to do it. And then in the article they're saying, so this is the first time I'm reading this, is that it's um it's about altruism, it's about contributing to medical science. But I actually felt this when I talked to people. It was really um, those are the major motivations for donating organs or your body, right? You're contributing to science, but people are motivated by a desire to find meaning in their death. So this is this is a way that you can do that. Um, so it's a it's a it's another example of that legacy that you're that you you can feel that you're making a positive contribution to future generations. I don't know what you two think of that. I'm gonna talk about the other two kinds of of legacy too, but do you have to?

SPEAKER_03 4:41

I'm gonna jump in. I'm just gonna jump in because I have a little personal anecdote about this. And I I do find this really um interesting. And um this whole idea of of the biological gift, and and you know there's two things that come to mind. First of all, is just the conversations that you start to have. It started we started to have in our house around this idea when my daughters got their driver's license, and of course they got the organ donation card. And um, and that's a very see feels like a very young age to start this idea of leaving a legacy or making um, you know, a valuable decision about your life of what happens upon your death, you know. And I think that leaves me my first comment just about this discussion in general, is that I I don't think this is a discussion about um that's aimed just at an older generation, a retiring generation. I think this is um a discussion that bridges generations and that there's opportunity to talk about this in different aspects, no matter who the audience is that you're engaging with. So that's kind of my first point. And then um my second point is bridges off of this because when we had this discussion with um with our daughters, and they asked us if we were organ donors and if we signed that in our card, because it's a personal decision, isn't it? Like this is all begins, it's a very personal values-based decision um that you start to develop early on. And one of the things that informed my thinking about this was in fact that my um my father had had a kidney transplant. Um, and uh this was this was when I was very young, so this was in the 70s, and ultimately it did not work, and he passed away. But that whole process, and and I of course I heard stories about that uh from my mom of what that looked like and the um, you know, what it meant to my family, you know, to even have that hope and that possibility at a time when it wasn't happening much, um, informed me at a very young age to kind of value that type of a contribution. And so I I do find this idea that legacy comes in many forms, biological, material, and values. And I I I really support that. And I I would encourage anyone at any stage to start to have some of those discussions with their family and loved ones, just to start to take the temperature and understand, you know, where those around them kind of sit with that as a as part of the process to making decisions for themselves.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah, and and what one of the things that that kind of you know, one of the things that we often say legacy giving events, um, whether it's speaking to a board of directors or speaking to um uh a seminar or webinar of uh individuals who are thinking about a legacy gift. Or and this of course extends this whole notion of legacy, I understand that is we often will talk about this moment that there are two times when you die.

unknown 7:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

And one of them is when you physically die. And I and I think even with younger people, there's this notion of it, they're unhappy with thinking about it. Uh uh, but they they're you know they understand that that that's a moment. But then the other thing we'll say is there the other time you die is when people you know don't think of you anymore, or that you're no longer in the consciousness of those people around you. Um, and I think that's always got a bigger impact, quite frankly, when you say that to people. Um, it's almost like we're prepared for the death moment. We get that. So it is biological, it's very cut and dry, it's factual. I don't like that moment that we're going to be forgotten. And I did, you know, in discussing this with you, Peggy, before it was the whole notion of a legacy is good for you know, all of these legacy uh ways of expressing legacy is good for your mental health.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I think, and you'll probably get into this a little bit more, but I think it's an extension once again. If you take the logical extension, we as fundraisers knew that people when they talk about uh their giving to an organization, they felt good about themselves. And then Russell James you know made that scientifically proven.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Now this is one step further. This is not just you feel good about yourself when you think about giving, think perhaps about your legacy gifts. It's better for your health, generally speaking, to be thinking about this. And in a lot of ways, not even doing the act of creating a gift or signing a donor card for your work. Yeah, the whole notion of thinking about it. Yeah, which makes people feel good.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

Yeah. So, so the you know, that that's exactly it. I mean, the the one the material legacy is um they talk about next, which is your wealth, your possessions. Um, so philanthropy. So that's the one we know about, leaving a bequest or passing on valuable belongings to either to an institution or to your family, heirlooms, you know, photographs, journals. Um, so it's a way of passing down um family history and and of course of supporting charity and I we can talk about that later because that's that's what we're about. But um the third category that they talk about is the values and beliefs, and that that's what most people most want to pass on as their legacy is that third category is they want to pass on their values and beliefs. I don't know, I don't think that's a surprise to you two either.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

No, yeah, not really.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

So uh what it means for us in planned giving, I think we all know, is that for many donors, that is what a planned gift is. They want to pass forward their values, and a bequest is a symbolic, symbolic way to do that. It's a gift that says um something, this mattered to me. So this cause mattered to me. I want this mission to continue into the future when I'm gone. I want future generations to benefit from um the work that this organization does. And um so so Ed, you mentioned the mental health. Um, why does this matter for mental health? And that is really where the article, like you said, it gets really interesting because the research is saying that thinking about legacy helps you move from anxiety about death, and they call it death anxiety, literally, to reflecting about death. So death reflection. And anxiety about death is fear, it's avoidance, it's denial, um, and death reflection is more thoughtful. It's it's triggering those questions like what matters to me, um, who did I help? What's going to continue after me? And so it's suggesting that people who engage in that kind of thinking about their legacy often report greater peace of mind, stronger sense of meaning, more motivation in their lives, and and more connection to others. So that's that was um really what was interesting about it. But the aspect, and I think you just touched on it, Ed, but the the aspect that they mentioned in the article that resonated really with me because I've done work with several organizations whose mission is actually to provide that end-of-life palliative care, is that when someone's actually intentionally facing the end of their life, so you've gone to palliative care, you know what that's about. Um, and that could be young people as well as older people, right? It's palliative care is for when that decision has been, you know, that that's something going to happen quite shortly. And so it's no longer theoretical, it's really reality. Um, and many of these organizations, hospitals and and palliative care centers, hospices, they now facilitate what they call legacy work or legacy activities. And this is things like writing a letter to your children or your grandchildren, even if they're not born. Your grandchildren, for example. I remember meeting people who said, I know that there will be grandchildren, so I'm going to write to them so they get to know who I am and what my values are. Creating scrapbooks, recording family history. Um, I worked at one where there was a lot of art, creative art therapy, they called it, doing art projects. Um, and then something they mentioned in this article is preparing an ethical will. So not a will about your possessions or a legal document, but just passing on your values in a will and your life lessons, your hope, your advice.

unknown 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

That I thought was really, really powerful to hear that just doing those activities makes people that's the kind of therapy, I guess, that makes you feel better and no longer in denial.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, and if I can, that last point's really fascinating to me. And and just to put on a practical plane for a lot of those who you know work in charities or work in you know in fundraising within not-for-profits, particularly in this area. And we've heard this, I've heard it uh throughout my careers. Why would our organization that is dedicated to uh you know preservation of uh wildlife or the uh you know even a building of a of sports programs for for uh children, or you know, name you can name the various things that are out there and quickly people both internally and externally, and I mean the external sort of senior leadership being volunteers, board members primarily, will ask the question why is it that we're providing information about legacies like this? That doesn't make any sense. It's two things. One is we need the money now, our our need is now, it's not for later, it's not a legacy gift, it's not the future. Let's write this this minute. And also, why would we? We're we're not expert in some of the things that we talk about in legacy giving marketing materials. Uh, and I think this this kind of touches on it. It's really not about any of that, it's about values, it's about allowing someone uh the ability to connect their values with your values in what uh the legacy does is a meaningful way beyond uh beyond just this transactional nature of giving a gift today. That the values are expressed there as well. But isn't that the whole point of charity? I mean, or at least uh what we call an enabling priority. The enabling priority of every charity is to provide a conduit where their supporters who are unable to give direct programs and direct service and direct connection are able to express their values through you. Uh, and I think it's so it's it's so much more meaningful than we allow in in the way that we operate a lot of our fundraising programs right now. And I think that isn't it a great gift that we can give people the idea that they can take a moment to reflect on themselves and their legacy. And perhaps, or just perhaps, they might connect that legacy with us. Um, and we know that lots of people do that, you know, generally speaking, it's still single digits of Canadian adults who do this all the way. But wow, what a powerful way to engage with people.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Well, and I think what I'd like to add to that is that um organizations that do this well, that you know, there is an opportunity, it's that word about connection. There's an opportunity to connect. And it it the idea of legacy to me, it it's it creates a level playing field that is available to anyone to have these kind of discussions about values and about things that they believe in. I mean, my first thought when you were talking about um this idea was family philanthropy, Peggy. And and you know, we talk about family philanthropy in terms of a way of passing on values and it's in a more formalized structure. And then sometimes this is where we're dealing more with donors who are of higher net worth who have set up family foundations and things like this, and they see this as a vehicle, as a way to to continue and and formalize their values through through giving. But to me, um it it goes far beyond that. And this is these are conversations any individual can have with their with their philanthropic charity of choice, if you will. Like there's an opportunity to share and create that connection and have meaning um from a life and and from values that they've hold through their own life experience that it doesn't matter what your giving level is at, it's it's about it is about just upholding that experience and valuing it and then continuing on. So I love the idea in this discussion too around values is leveling the playing field. It's it makes this type of giving accessible to anyone and and to take that movement from more anxiety to reflection. And and everyone deserves that opportunity to reflect on their life lived and what has mattered to them and align themselves if they can to an organization who can continue and perpetuate that on in whatever whatever form that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, yeah. So I think that this is an activity. If we talk of those activities that are happening, um, you know, that people are consciously, intentionally giving, um, you know, writing letters to their children or whatever, if we think that uh putting a gift in your will is an intentional way of doing that, it's almost like saying, here's your therapy, this is your activity. Um I'm not saying that we should say that to people, but I do say that uh we should be having the right kind of conversations. We say this over and over, but it's really worth repeating that when we talk and train um people in in this area of work to have those kinds of conversations, and often they're afraid to have these kinds of conversations because they think that they're gonna be talking about death instead of about life, which is which is exactly what I always say. No, it's not about death, it's about life. And so before you ask people, do you want to, you know, would you consider putting a gift in your will? Uh, have the like have the conversation about values and say, you know, tell me about why this cause has been meaningful to you. Uh, what do you hope will people will carry forward from your life in terms of what your values are for having supported us and and what shaped your values? And what kind of future do you want to help create so that people start to be in that frame of mind that they're thinking about legacy, not necessarily the the um financial legacy, but it's a it's a way to get people into that autobiographical part of their brain that Russell James talked about. And I know you mentioned it, Ed, but I think what's great is that that that research that Russell James uh did about thinking about legacy giving is the area of your brain that's connected to your life story. Um, I think this just basically just validates that. It's it's it's just telling us, yeah, that's exactly it. And that's it's also not just that part of your brain lighting up, it's you you feeling good, feeling better.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

So, Peggy, if I can just it if you were giving a piece of advice, if you were saying what is something a charity could change in their approach, something that they could do better, where's an opportunity to learn from this? I I take it that is that the area that that you would zero in on, is is the approach to the conversations about life, not death, and and uh or is there something else that you've seen that charities could do better or that that they're just kind of missing the boat on right now?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I think we're still, I think a lot of charities are still approaching plan giving too technically and focusing too much on the tax advantages and the estate vehicles and the legal structures, which are important. Um, they matter, but uh I think the deeper conversation um is should be focused on a bit more about you know what people's impact is going to be, what what meaning this will bring to others. And um, and then that thing about this is not a morbid topic, is what we're hearing. Thinking about it, talking about it is very valuable to us, obviously, as as organizations, to be able to have that conversation so people can consider how they would like to leave a legacy, but it's also very valuable to the people we're talking to, where we're giving them an opportunity to do that legacy work.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Life affirming is what comes to mind. It can be a very life-affirming conversation. Yes. Ed, before we wrap up, any final thoughts from you?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Well, I guess the only thing is that, and we've touched on it a bunch, but I just wanted to lean into this notion of this uh two things. One is this mental health, you know, uh aspect to this. People who engage in this, you know, it's good for their mental health. And it's one of the things that we've been talking about a little bit over the last little while is uh is um plan gifts being gifts of wisdom. And I know that sounds like a marketing uh position, and it is kind of a marketing position, but uh that's it's true. It is actually a gift of wisdom. And I think this is uh, you know, kind of reinforcing that that um it's a wise, uh thoughtful, uh uh life-affirming uh and also um mentally um strengthening approach to the way you live your life. And that's wisdom. That's wise. And I think that uh boy, uh uh sometimes I get a little bit jaded having worked in this part of our fundraising business for 30 years, but it's always nice when there's a moment to center ourselves and think this is a really great part of what we do. It's not appreciated enough, Peggy. I would think you would agree. Um, but uh it's a really wonderful way to raise uh raise awareness, raise connection, and of course raise dollars for important organizations.

SPEAKER_03 23:42

I think that's a great place to leave off. So thank you, Peggy, for bringing that uh that study forward and and for talking about I feel like this has been a conversation about mental health that is kind of a good news story. So often we're coming at at mental wellness uh, you know, of late from a deficit position. But here's something that we can do for the good um that's going to magnify good works that are are going on. So thanks for that.