We Don't Know What We're Doing + Victoria Clark

This week, Ariana + Kimberly welcome special guest Victoria Clark! We get a little nosy as Vic opens up about her childhood, her first encounter with Jesus, and her powerful testimony of finding freedom from addiction

Follow us and send us your prayer request on Instagram at @throughitpodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

I think you guys you have the great names.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Oh, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

I told Kim this once, but I thought growing up that Kim really was just like the elite of beautiful names because of the pink ranger, pink power ranger and then my grandma. My grandma, my dad's mom, her name is Victoria. But she goes by Vicky. Yeah. And I was I'm not a Vicky. No. I think I was in um, I don't know, I was probably like eight or nine or something when I realized that Posh Spice, her name was also Victoria. And I was like, this is the pink femininity. The pink ranger and the spice girl.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Um, if you guys haven't caught on, we have Victoria or Vic, not Vicky, with us on the pod. Um, if you guys are a part of our 116 community, she is the one on the keys. And so this is the episode of Through It with Vic Clark. Yes, welcome to Through It.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Thank you. So honored to be here and really excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

So is it weird to hear Victoria Clark? That even flows really well. It's really weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

It's so weird. And even when I see it in writing, like on Instagram or Facebook, I'm like, who is that? I'm like, oh, that's me.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

It's actually me.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

You had to change the handle.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yeah. That was the first thing I did. You don't have to go to another. That was the first thing I did.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Actually, that night I changed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah. I had to throw the periods in there and the middle initial in there and all the things.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yeah, I tried like seven, seven ways to do it and picked one. You threw your middle initial. I had to because it Victoria Clark or Vic Clark was not available.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

What? Okay, what's your middle name?

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Mary.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

After the mother of Jesus. My mom was Catholic.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Okay, that was actually why she mother of Jesus. And okay, this is random. I know we have icebreakers, but I'm I'm curious, so I'm gonna ask you. We were talking about this on Thursday. What is your birth order?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Um, I I have a lot of firstborn traits because I'm a first girl, but I have three older brothers.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So three older brothers, then me, my sister, and then a younger brother.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

And there's five of you total? Six. Six of the six of us.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yep. Four boys, two girls.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Jason. He lives in Florida.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And then Billy's the second.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

But there was a there's like a a few years between them. So Jason moved out.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

You know, he grew up, moved out before a lot of us had even like gotten to high school or anything like that. So Billy has a lot like of older brother type. He does. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah. Interesting. I would have never guessed that order. I was trying to figure out what the order was, and I'm like, well, it could be this. It could be this.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

No, I'm definitely I have a brother between me and Billy, Joey, and he's 14 months older than me.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

People thought we were twins when we were younger.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Were you in the same grade or one year apart?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

One year apart.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Okay. Is your brother really close with you too? In age? He's two years.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

So yeah, two years apart. Almost exactly two years apart. Almost two years. I have a brother that's 18 months younger than me.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

That's pretty close too. It is close, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yeah. Frankie and his brother are 13 months apart.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

It's like you and what in the world? I can't imagine. You're you're basically you have a newborn and then you get pregnant. And then you're pregnant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Well, it's crazy. My mom just did that for four of us, just knocked us out. We're all like within 14, 16, 18 months of each other, four of us.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

How fun is that though? How impressive. Did you all have like like similar friend groups growing up then?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

We were our friend group because we moved so we moved so many times, which I mean we think of you because you're a military kid, can't really, and we felt like military kids, but we were we were in church. So my dad was moving like to start this church or to go to Bible college or to help with this church. And so we moved. I moved before I got to Seattle, I'd moved over 30 times. I've moved probably over 40 times at this point in my life. And um and so when we started new schools, we were these are my homemades, we built-in friends, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

That's amazing to have a sibling. That's pretty why I want Kendrick to have a slipping. Yes. Yeah. My brother's my best friend, you know, even if we don't live close to each other. But there's a lot that we want to get into, but we do want to start with icebreaker. Okay. This icebreaker could be a hit or a complete miss. So let's just go with the flow. I love the idea of both. Yeah. But we'll just find out. So um, we didn't want to do like, I don't know, a generic icebreaker, but I'm thinking so when you think about your vision of utopia, so like a perfect world. Yeah, what would be, I don't know, like uh a rule, an ideology, just even something it could be silly of what a perfect utopia would be. So I'll I'll kick it off. All right. Perfect utopia is a little bit redundant, but um I like it. I put, and I obviously I had some time to think about it. So I'm just gonna start a curfew for anyone that's over the age of 30. That's not bad. Don't make a dinner reservation at 8 p.m. Or at 7. Yeah, and then you have to say no. I'm gonna feel bad and I have no excuse other than it's too late and I'm tired. That's an excuse. Yeah, it's too late.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Yeah, though.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Dinner at 8 means you're not home until after 10, I feel like even honestly, like a seven o'clock reservation to me feels late.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Yeah, it does. That's that's as late as I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I love it. Okay, throw another one out there, anyway. Well, for I immediately came to mind for me was in this perfect world, yeah, everyone is fully self-aware. I can't stand going to Costco on a Saturday, which I don't, but if I ever have to, people that just it's their world and we're living in it, right? Like they stop in the middle of the aisle because they had a thought. Right. It's not even like there's like a sample tray or something, they just stop in like four people behind them, and they even see me behind them, and they're like, come just in the unaware.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Unaware. You know what that reminds me of? Toddless. Yeah, and kindergarten. So they basically, yeah, never graduated from that phase and their brain is a little kindergartner. They're like, Kendrick is very unaware in that way. I'm like, do you not? You almost just poke my eyeball out, you know? But I'm like, okay, you're six, it's fine. We're we're teaching you. That's what I'm here for. But that it reminds me, it's it's kind of childish, yeah. Completely unaware in your own world.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

You have one. I don't know why this is what I'm thinking about, but I think two things you wouldn't be allowed to assume anything. So you wouldn't have to ask. I'd get in trouble a lot.

unknown 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

And then everybody would have to move with, like, I guess this works with yours too, but like a sense of urgency. Yeah. People needing to have a sense of urgency.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

I appreciate that so much. To the point sometimes, though, where I feel like I rush for no reason.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, so do I.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

I'm like, I'm rushing to be early. Hurry up and wait. Yeah, hurry up and wait is like my life. And I'm like, I need to slow down. Yeah. Jordan's reminded me, like, it's okay if you're five minutes late.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

No, it's not. But it's thank you.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

And I know that was my thought. I'm like, is it though? I don't know. Yeah. Nothingy, Jordan, if you're listening, yeah. Saying it's punctual, but it's like, it's not the end of the world. I'm like, ugh. That's the thing. It's not the end of the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Do you have another one? Um there was something I just had and it skipped my what was it?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

I'm thinking about like as you guys are sipping on coffee. If I don't say hot or cold, just assume that it's hot.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Yeah. That's a good that yeah. That feels like why isn't that common knowledge?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

To me, that's like a little bit of awareness mixed in with like maybe knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I cut you off what was Oh no, I was thinking, you know how um it might be this way in different countries, different cultures. Or what I went to Greece one time, and um, like in the afternoon, everyone sits down. Like we Jen and I went to get coffee to go from our hotel, and they were like, What? They didn't have to go cups. Wow, and so they had to go searching for something. They got us like paper cups, no lids, and got coffee to go. Everyone, the pace of life is different, and it's not like it's lazy, but they real some cultures have learned to really enjoy life. Like when they sit down for coffee, it is two hours plus, you know, time or don't work a five-day work week and then two days out or something like that. So a little bit more like a slower pace.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Not that you're getting stuff done. I still need stuff to get done, but like, yeah, enjoying life a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Well, that's the illusion, right? Like when we rush, we're assuming that we're gonna get more done.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

But just because you're moving faster doesn't mean you're being more productive per se.

SPEAKER_03 9:05

And we're rushing to get more done because ultimately we believe we're like a sum of our productivity.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Right. And who decided we have to have a five-day work week? Like, why is it five and two? What would it be? At least four and three. I love four and three.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Even if you're working for a tension, but four and three, like that makes sense to me. Yeah. Or three and a half and three and a half. Let's make it even. I am actually once I looked into that.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Like, why, why, where did that five, the Monday through Friday come from? I'm actually curious. I'm gonna have to I'm gonna put a pin in that and we'll do it floater and I'll report back to you guys. I'm an advocate for that. Okay, I have a list here from Thankschat GBC of ones that I actually thought were really funny. Um, I'm just gonna read through them here. Okay. So one of the rules, the reply all accountability society. Every time someone hits reply all unnecessarily, they lose Wi-Fi privileges. I advocate.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

I advocate for that. I will except for I used to, in nobody I know that knows this is gonna hear this. So I'm gonna say the um most executive level at my the previous company that I worked for. So she is in charge of there. This person was in charge of all of sales and marketing, all anything to do with revenue, sales operations, revenue operations, marketing operations. She had a terrible problem with that, and she would reply all with a customer on the thread. Oh no, talking about the customer. Oh no. Yes, and it was like it happened more than once for sure. Oh my goodness. Yes, or she would reply all and then talk about somebody in the like another employee.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

That's like my worst nightmare for some reason.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

No nunchi.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, thank you. So I was telling her about this Korean word called nunchi, which kind of goes back to your self-awareness utopian role. Nunchi in Korean, if you there's no English word for it, but if you directly translate it, it means I measuring. And so it's you eye measuring the room, kind of having like a sixth sense. So, for example, if you have like food on your hands and you're like looking around and you don't see anything, me having nunchi, I'd grab you a napkin. And you're like, oh, thanks. Didn't even have to say anything. That's nice. Hello, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

That's a great word.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah, it is a great word, and it doesn't exist in the English language because one kind of tracks with your um so Vic also has a podcast with her brother and sister-in-law called Coffee Talks. Um, it says the return your cart equals tax credit economy. If you return your grocery cart, you can scan a code and get a micro tax break. Yes, Lord. Okay. Um number three, the meeting has to prove a point law. Before scheduling a meeting, you must submit objective desired outcome. And why couldn't this be an email? Or you get denied.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

That's beautiful. Yeah. This is Utopia. Why doesn't that exist?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Why doesn't that exist? Okay, I'm gonna do two more. Uh, number four, the gym membership actually means you go system. So if you don't show up twice a week, your membership fee increases if you don't go twice a week. We need this accountability.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

You could do that, yeah, you could make that a reality. I know.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I don't know. Because money, you're invested. So you're paying the money, you're gonna show up.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah, and that's actually a good, like you're reaping the benefits of now. It goes against you, which actually is a great deal. Maybe we'll consider this. Okay, last one, which I actually love this. Actually, I'm gonna do two more because these are both good. Okay. The speed-based sidewalk lanes city. So, like highways, but for walking. Slow lane, because you're scrolling on your phone, one lane, a normal lane, and then a power lane. I'm late, power walking, like my life depends on it. Lane, which I love because I'm such a power walker. Yeah. Like, keep up, guys. Let's go. All right, last one. The no one knows what they're doing rule, transparency rule, which we kind of talked about before we hit record. At every job, leaders must publicly admit we're figuring this out as we go and we don't know what we're doing. Like we are the plane as we fly it. So imposter syndrome drops and confidence becomes honest instead of fake.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

I want to live in this place. That's where's this world?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah. But it's true. So, like before we hit record, I think people assume that, like, oh, we're doing this grand thing because we have a podcast, which is even still weird for us to say. But pretty much every time we record, we're like, we don't know what we're doing. Definitely not. Put that in there. We don't know what we're doing, guys. But here we are.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Also, us, we don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, you would never be able to tell though, at all. Like I um just I guess a call back to Vic's podcast with um her brother and sister-in-law, Coffee Talk. Yeah, I'm I love it. I listen to it that every Wednesday morning. I'm not just saying this because you're sitting in front of me. Yeah, but it's so much fun to the point where when you guys are finishing, I'm like, can we can you keep going? Right. Keep talking about things, make them longer.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I think I messaged you because I listened to it while I lived, and I literally have to go pick up my phone sometimes because I'm laughing out loud, and it just seems weird.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

And you want people to know you're on your phone game.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Yeah, not just loving this workout so much. Like laughing moment, laughing. Yeah, no, it's funny. Um, okay, so let's kind of dig into it a little bit. I feel like when we started, um, you were sharing a little bit about your background. Actually, don't know if we're recording or not.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

We talked about to be honest, I don't even know when you hit record. When you were like here we're on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

I was like, oh, we've been recording this whole time. I didn't know. It was awesome. Well, like a pro, you're you don't your posture didn't change. Like a pro. Yeah. Okay, so you moved a lot growing up. We really want to know more about like your um childhood and upbringing. Um let's start with you moved, you said probably over 30 times at this point.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, maybe close to 40 even.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

That's wild. How about what do you think? How many times do you think you've moved? Also quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah, maybe close to 15, 20.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah. So that kind of puts it into perspective, I feel like. Because I feel like you moved a lot as well. Yeah. But for her to say that she's moved about that many times is a lot. So was it mostly because your dad was church planting, or like what was the reason for the move?

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Yeah, I mean, I mostly I think that like helping a church or going to Bible college, or I also think finances probably with my parents, like they'd get, you know, in a lease and then have to get, I don't know, we never talked about money when when we were growing up, but like I think that was part of it because we would move in the same city too. We'd be in this house and then we'd move like same city move. Um I feel that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

That was like the start of me in Jordan too. Like if the lease expired rent goes up, we would just move.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you get kind of used to it, right? Like even even now in my adult life, living in an apartment before, I'd be like, Oh, let me sign up with this apartment. They give like two months free. And then once the year's up, it's like, shoot. Yeah. My rent's fire, so let me go find another two-month free, you know, or whatever. Yeah. No, that's real. So where were you born? I was born in okay. Was it you that said Eugene, Oregon?

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Maybe. I lived there. Yeah, that's where I was born.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

You were born in Eugene? Yeah, yeah. Because I heard you talking about on the podcast and I was like, oh, that's I was born in Eugene, Oregon. We only lived there like a year, and then we moved to Alaska. What? You don't remember your childhood was in the world. My second time back to Oregon in my entire life was when I moved here to Washington. We drove to Oregon and I got a ticket. I was like, I came back to my home state and I got pulled over. I wasn't even speeding. It was a beautiful day, 10 a.m. sunny. I got pulled over and ticketed for swerving in my lane. And I was like, really? Why? Like, welcome home. Like, thank you for that. Swerving in your lane. What does that mean? Like you just that's weird. Just kind of like uh moving my car. It seemed it's like I sneezed. Kind of like a BS type of ticket.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

But that's crazy. I had it. That's like I was born in Nebraska, have never been back since. Yeah. And was only there for like a year. So I wouldn't even claim it as like my home anything. Yeah, me either.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I don't put hometown organ because I'm like, I don't but your passport says Oregon on it.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, which is funny because mine says Nebraska in caps. I'm like, why? So random. And they did like double take. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

I don't even think I've ever realized that that the passport has your birth name. I think just this. Where were you born? California. Nice. Hemet. My grandma still lives there.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Yeah. My dad was born there too. But anyways, this isn't about me. So you grew up in Alaska.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

No, because then we lived in Alaska for like a year or two. My dad was in Bible college, and then we moved basically where I grew up the most was between Baltimore, Chicago, and Atlanta. Okay. So we went back and forth from Baltimore and Chicago for church stuff. And then we moved to Atlanta when I think I just turned 16. And we moved to Atlanta.

SPEAKER_03 18:33

What how would you like describe your childhood?

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Do you remember a lot? I I have a hard time remembering a lot of my childhood. Um I feel like it was good. Like we had a big family, so I always had, you know, siblings to play with. Um I talked to my sister about her childhood and mine, it's very different.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

You know, and and my mindset was like, you know, I was the first girl, so I got a lot of um the family loved that. My aunts and uncles and grandparents. Yeah, it was just like one of those things. So it was, I think I probably had like an easy childhood in that sense. But yeah, it was a good, good childhood.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

The moving did it ever bother you?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

No, I didn't even know. I and we were we were poor, but I didn't know we were poor. Wow. Like we just, you know, like I I tell people for us to go to McDonald's was like the biggest reward, like the biggest treat ever. And it wasn't like we got happy mails because those were too expensive, you know, with the toy, you usually got like a cheeseburger, maybe, and you know, everyone shares fries or something. Yeah, but we didn't, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

It reminds me of even like Jordan has a similar just experience of growing up not knowing that they were poor.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

And you don't actually, you don't start comparing how your quality of life is compared to others until like you get into your maybe your adolescence preteens. Yeah. It's like, oh, I want this. You start wanting things and like you can't, you know? Yep.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

I wonder how much of that is like just the what is being spoken about in the house, even if it's not like finances being spoken about in front of the kids, if material things are being spoken about, you're probably more like aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like for sure. Cause you get like you think about when you're young, how much time you spend with your parents and your family. And then once you have like the the trust from your parents to go and hang out with your friends, then it's like that becomes more of your narrative, I feel like, from like what's coming from your friends. But for you, it's like your siblings.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

Yeah, we weren't really allowed to go play uh at a lot of friends' houses. Um, but yeah, it was it was a good life. My dad was a pastor, we had church in our living room a lot. Wow, like we wouldn't have a building, but we would just set up the living room with chairs and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

It felt normal, it just felt normal. Yeah, I started playing on the worship team before they should have ever had me playing. I was like, I think I started playing piano when I was for the the church, maybe when I was 12.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Did you it was bad lessons or my mom was a piano teacher, she's taught me when I was four. Started she gave all of us lessons, but it really only stuck with me. None of the other kids really, you know, did music too much.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Billy did a little, but yeah, we just and you're like pretty musical, right? Like you play many instruments, you really enjoy music, you still make music.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, I love it. It's definitely and my mom's family was very musical growing up too.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Does anyone else sing? I know Christiana, you're Christiana.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Billy did. Billy was the one he was a worship leader in church in Atlanta. Like, I have I actually have recordings. I need to play it for you. Like, we have he I learned to be like a worship leader, like to sing and stuff from him.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Wow. See, this is why like we're getting to know you, but it's stuff like this where it's just wild to me how long we've really been in the same church community. Yeah, but it's like We're not ever stopping to like really get to know each other aside from like coffee dates here and there. I was even I had this thought of like between even the three of us right now, how much life has happened in our community and how life has been unfolding in front of each other, but like we don't have time to sit and talk like this. So like parallel. Yeah, just even, you know, you and I both got baptized at 116 at our church. Um, we all got married within the same time of like knowing who we are, knowing each other. Just all these like big life milestones have happened within the like time of us knowing each other in a short amount of time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:46

That's so interesting. I'm glad you thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

It's kind of wild.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Like, I mean, there's a lot, and we're gonna unpack more of it too. But it's just like we it's like when we go to the same church and we kind of like pass each other, you know? But it's like a lot of life has happened. Like, even just me and Jordan joined that community when we're boyfriend and girlfriend. Really.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

When did you come? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Um, pretty much when it started. Okay. Not like the first Sunday, but like within media home. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So pretty much when like COVID was stole. Yeah. We're in the thick of COVID. Yeah. But it's just wild. It is. So grew up with church in the house. Um I'm curious, because you said it all it felt normal. And even now, as you're very much a part of the church as a worship leader, when when did um I don't know, your relationship with Jesus and like your own faith start to feel like it's more of your own and not just something that was handed down to your family. Like, did you have that moment?

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, for sure. Um, when I was 15. So we um my my parents were pastors, right? And then when I was 15, this is kind of typical in church world, there's church splits where churches kind of divide and not not in a good way, like in a bad way. And our church was small, so it was made of made up of family friends, like friends that were ours for you know, life, like my parents' friends. And um when I was 15, all of those people, there was probably like five couples or something. This is how I interpret it. So we didn't talk about it much. My parents didn't really let us in on any of that stuff, but they turned on my parents and were like, no, we're not gonna do this anymore. And the church just disintegrated. And wow, all these people, that's all we knew, right? Like that was just that was life. Like we just knew those people, and now they were just gone. And that was my first, like, okay, um if this is what like people that follow God are like, like really fake, I don't want to have anything to do with it. And I that was not a conscious thing. Now I look back and I'm like, there was something subconscious in me that was like, I'm done with that. Yeah, I'm just gonna be done with that. So I was 15, we're living in Chicago. We had to start like going to church, like to different, like to other people's churches, which I only knew my dad's church. So like we're going, I'm like, I am not having any of it. I was 15. I started like dyeing my hair red and blue and you know, like all the stuff. It started like hanging out with the wrong crowd. I got into sports, and I'm like, so my parents say, We're gonna go, um, and we want to send you on this camp, this church camp in Georgia. And we went, my my siblings and I, and I encountered God. I mean, it was like this crazy encounter, like for myself for the first time ever. And we came back home and we were just like on fire, all this stuff, you know. And then my parents were like, We're gonna move. We're gonna move to Georgia, we're gonna go to that church and we're gonna move there.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah, and I don't know how it all led to that, but it somehow it led to that, and we moved to Georgia, and I went immediately to a summer camp there, the same church, and I I like was seeing like the power of God for the first time. Like people were like being affected by it, and it freaked me out. I'm like, what is happening? I called my dad, I'm like, this is weird, you know. I don't like and he's like, No, it's normal, it's fine, you know. Um, and so I I remember I had a Bible, the youth pastor there got it for me, and it was like I've for the first time it felt like my relationship with God was personal, it wasn't just my family's, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

That gives me chills, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

And you were so young, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

15, 16.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

That's like what a blessing that is, even like to just have that encounter. Some people go like I mean, most of their lives and not be able to see things or experience things like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Well, what's crazy to me though, it's like you grew up in a house where your family loves Jesus, and how you're like even having church in your living room, it it was so normal. And it reminds me of even a few episodes back how we're talking about just our family of origin. But it's like when you do something so much, it just becomes normal. And so something like the power of the Holy Spirit, which is not what we would say normal, it's supernatural, becomes normal. And then like I don't know, I I don't want to say like lukewarm, but it just is like, oh, this is just something that we do, and you don't have like an a like a an awe for it.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Because I even like a personal connection, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Because it's almost like a part of your daily routine, a way of life. I think that's really interesting because to me, like 15 is young. Like we look at 15-year-olds now, it's like you're you're still a babe, you know? But at the same time, I'm like 15, you're like full-blown teenager, so it doesn't feel so young. It it feels like a long time until having that encounter. So, like with your other siblings, did they have a similar experience when they went to that yes church camp?

SPEAKER_00 28:00

So that's where Billy actually met Jennifer.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Oh, that's so at the church, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Okay, and I hooked them up. I like to say I was friends with her, you know, and then and then I set them up.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

But okay, so you met her at that church camp.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

That's it was her dad's church.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

What?

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Yeah, my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

In Atlanta. And I don't even know how we got connected, but yeah, it was just one of those things, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Do you know how your parents even knew about this church? You know what? I don't know. I have no idea. That's a lot to be happening, and it's you're like out of state. I have no idea how they found out about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

I should ask my mom.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

It's one of those moments where it's something that could seem like such an innocent decision at the time. It's like you're gonna go to summer camp and you don't think it's a big deal. But in hindsight, being 2020, that was like the biggest decision of pretty much everyone's life. Change the course of everybody's life. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

It changed everything. It changed everything. I was gonna start listing this up and I'm gonna get too much. It changed everything.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Because when they told you you're gonna go to that church camp, were you like um resistant?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

I wanted to go to the church camp, loved it. And then I came back and the church split happened with our church. Um then they said we're moving there. And I was like, Well, I'm not. I was 15 and I started hanging out with like um I'm not uh my softball team. Okay, I started drinking for the first time. Like that's where I first had my first like alcoholic drink, and these were my friends, and I told myself at 15, I'm gonna stay here while they move. Like, I'm I'm gonna move in with my friends' family, and they'll love to have me. And my parents are gonna be okay with it. I'm gonna finish high school year and I do my junior and senior year year. And so I remember when I told my parents that and they were like, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Yeah, and I was like, Wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 29:40

We're not you're not gonna let me stay. Like, I literally thought this is what's gonna happen, and they were like, Absolutely not. And so I wasn't pumped about moving to Atlanta, but that changed real quick.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah, because did you think you'd live with family out there? Like, who'd you think you'd live with?

SPEAKER_00 29:52

No, my friends, okay, yeah, and their family because why not? They would talk about it and we had the whole plan figured out. It'd be cool now. Yeah, it was my friend was uh Greek and her family was a Greek family, and they loved me, and they were just like, sure, you can stay here.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, that is so funny. The things that we thought were like okay or cool as teenagers, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Yeah, or the way you think you're just making your decisions.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

I my parents moved me to Eugene in my freshman year of high school, and I had like a similar thing where I was like, I'm just not gonna go. And I would hide. My mom would show up at my friends' houses, and I would be literally hiding in the closet. Oh my god, the parents would be like, She's not here. No, yeah, like I'm not going.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

That's crazy. Wow. How we think, yeah, but no, when we moved there, I went immediately to a summer camp, and that's where I encountered God. Like, really, really encountered him, and yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

And then everything changed. And then do you feel like you that relationship stayed that way? No, no, that there was like ebbs and flows over the over the years. Okay, yeah, anything major that really kind of sparked those, like maybe mountains or valleys, or do you feel like it was just life?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

It's hard, it's hard to like pinpoint what sparked that kind of stuff because there were definitely ebbs and flows. Um I think identity was huge. I didn't really know who I was, it was really insecure. Um, you know, I moved from Chicago where when we went to high school, all the no one wore makeup. I wore, which isn't style now, I guess, but like baggy jeans, baggy t-shirts, no makeup at all. And then I moved to Atlanta, and my high school felt like people were dr the girls were dressing up like to go to prom for just Monday at school. And it was a it was a weird shift for me, and I just didn't feel like I I fit that way. So I think there was a lot of insecurity um and that real true like knowing who I was. I don't know how you can at 16, like really know who you are in God and like teenagers.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

That's like a normal but you don't realize it's normal, right? Because we're in our own head about it.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah. And so I, you know, I I dated this one guy and it wasn't great. And um, you know, at that time I was like getting affection from somebody, so that kind of pulled me away from from God. And and there was a culture in our church, there's not today anymore, thank God, but um there were a lot of secrets because if if you confess something right like, hey, I'm struggling with this, it was like the end of the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Like if someone had premarital sex, it was like, okay, first of all, you're done.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

Like it and it was never about like, hey, why did you do that? Like what in you is what are you searching for? What are you needing? Like, what are you like have those kind of conversations? It would be, it was either like, hey, so we're gonna send you out of state, move, out of state, you know, out of sight, out of mind, kind of thing, or like, okay, so you had premarital sex, um, three months. You're out off the worship team for three months. That's the that's the sentence for you. It wasn't, it was the same for everybody too, you know, like, and then we'll reconsider you. So most people didn't say when they were struggling with anything because it was such a big deal. And that's where that whole kind of like, don't be completely honest, really slipped into my life.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Wow, I think.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

And that's why probably a lot of ebbs and flows in that time period, because it was like tell a planting of a seed that if you're honest, you get punished. And the enemy uses that, right? So it's like if you say something, oh my gosh, it's gonna be the end of the world. And I mean, like I love, I'm sure we'll talk about this. I'm in AA and I love it. And one of the things I say in AA is you're only as sick as your secrets, like they keep us sick. Yeah, secrets do.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

And that kind of slipped into my life for sure at that point.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

It's always like actually so profound as you're talking about it, even the question of well, what is going on that made you want to do that? You know, and like why and how types of questions. But because that wasn't the reality then, did that also create any kind of like a performative nature? For sure. Right?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Like look a certain way. You gotta look, you gotta look the part, look a certain way. You know, I started working for a church w in Atlanta, so I was probably 17 when I first anywhere between 17 and 19. I can't remember exactly, but I was when I first started working full-time for the church and ministry. And um my boss at the time would only acknowledge when I messed up. There was never any, and I think that happens a lot. Something's making me mad right now.

SPEAKER_04 34:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

If I did everything right 99% of the time, and I 1% I didn't, that was the thing that got highlighted. So there was so much performative, like, I need to be, and I would be, I'm a I became a perfectionist. Like I needed to have everything perfect in order looking right, even if it wasn't on the inside, it needed to look that way, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

It's making me like mad and kind of sad at the same time. And maybe because it's kind of hitting a button inside. Can't we? Because just the even just thinking of my childhood, and it's no one's fault. This is just like the narrative I created in my own head, but just even with the standards and the expectations, it's like no congratulations, no job well done, which is actually fine because now as an adult, I'm like, I actually don't care if you say good job, you know, it's nice to hear you, but you know, but then as soon as you mess up, it is like the biggest thing ever.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah. And then that's yeah, that like kind of shapes your identity. And then you everything you're doing is to avoid a failure. And for how long, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:46

It's hard to unwire and rewire. So do you and I I mean, I'll be the first to say there's still a lot of that in a lot of just how I am in whatever setting. For you, how did that shift? I mean, uh was there a point where they saw you kind of um going the other direction where they did take you to the side and be like, what's going on?

SPEAKER_00 36:17

No, never there. That never happened. It was just like, I mean, some of it was kind of wild, like, and I won't I won't put it out on um public for people to hear because I don't want to make people feel bad. Yeah, but um like it was I wish it would have been different. Like I and now when people struggle, I I try so hard to not be that person because I think judgment is like almost innate, like it's almost a a first response, like to to judge someone for a decision or something they did or whatever. But um there was never any kind of it what I felt anyways, care and concern about me and why I'm doing that kind of stuff, um, or you know, the dishonesty or whatever it might be. And it played out for years until I moved to Seattle.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Wow. But yeah, it it was uh It's the whole it's the nature of people where whether we realize it or not, we're making things about ourselves. So when they see someone, let's say a teenager at church messing up, instead of being concerned for the teenager, they're being concerned of how is this gonna make the church look. Yes, and it's a constant me, me, me, you know, like we're like always concerned of I don't know, it's kind of like working for our salvation, even like how is this gonna appear? We wanna make sure like, and that's like the I don't know. I feel like a lot of what leads to sin is us just trying to do things in our own will to be like, I don't know, perfect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

I mean it's we had just had an old episode on this. It's pride, right? Yeah, where it's like pride is the root of all of it, it's it's the root of shame on on both sides, people who want to hide from it, people who want to do the hiding, and it's what keeps you bound. Like you said, you're only as sick as your secrets. It keeps you silent, it keeps you unhealthy, unhealthy, unhappy. But it's I mean, it it it must be one of the most difficult things to grow out of. That's the right letter.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

You touch on right. So learning something is one thing. Unlearning is so much it's more difficult, like to be like, okay, because it becomes default, I think, kind of in you. But then once you start, like I got to the point where being honest and living honest, like fully transparent and honest with God, with myself, with people in my life, the freedom, yeah, it's addictive. Like, I wouldn't want to live any other way, but for so long I was bound and like I can't say that, or and I don't even know if it was conscious. I just think I knew like I can't say that, or I can't say, you know, tell people that or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

But to what was the catalyst to that? How did you get there?

SPEAKER_00 39:04

I don't know. It's so so many decades, you know.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

It's like I know this is a lot. Where do I start? Tell us every feeling you've ever had to experience.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

I'll just read them to you. I read, I read part, I was looking kind of like preparing, like I don't know what we're gonna talk about today. I didn't know, but um looking at like old journals, and I read a little caption out loud to my husband this morning, and I'm like, I was such an idiot. Why did I feel that way? Um so yeah, I I don't know all the journey of it all, but I think you know, we moved I moved here to Seattle in 2007 and saw church in a different way than I'd ever seen it. And I realized, oh, everything doesn't have to be the way it was. I was very these four walls, um, and I didn't know what it could look like outside. I didn't know that church could look any different. I didn't know that a relationship with God could look any different. Like this is just what I knew. Right. And so coming out of that and moving here, my eyes were open to like, oh, there are different ways. And it doesn't have to be that way. But it didn't change like overnight for me once I saw that. It was still a lot of unlearning and learning new stuff. Um I mean, we've you can fast forward all the way to like four years ago when I got sober. Yeah, and I was it'll be four years, June 19th, and I've been sober. Yeah, it really does. But I my relationship with God at that time was great, you know. I thought, anyways, but there were parts that were dishonest. Like I just was not honest with him and really not honest with myself, subconsciously though, yeah, still and in the midst of all that, and um when I finally decided, like, okay, I'm I not that I don't want to live this way anymore, I can't. Yeah, like I am not living, and I can no longer move forward. And I was what I'm I'm 46 now, so I was 42, like already 42, and it took me that long to be like, I'm done with that, I cannot live a dishonest life. Um, you know, and it wasn't like I was doing like this wild things, but it just it wasn't honest. And with myself and with God, that was the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Was it like because what made you even aware of that? Because I think a lot of what you're talking about, like the first step is to even be aware that there is a problem. So when you got to the point of like, I can't live like this, this dishonest life, like you were saying, was it just because you didn't have peace? Like, what was like people telling you? Like, how did you come to that awareness even?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Um, yeah, I think it was a little bit all of that. I um I at the time was in a relationship that was not healthy, and I started drinking, not putting it off on this, but like I started drinking to be okay with things that were not okay. And so it was kind of like either to chase a feeling or to escape a feeling always. I wanted to change how I was feeling, and so I started, and I didn't know this at the time, right? So it wasn't like this, like I I was an alcoholic from the moment I took a drink or something, you know. Sure. Because there were times I went 10 years without drinking because I wasn't allowed to for my job. And I was like, okay, cool, whatever, no big deal. But um I started instead of going to God, I started turning to other things.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

That is a point to be highlighted. That's just addiction in a nutshell. Totally. Yeah, like you you need you need um you're looking for something to save you, to escape, to make you feel better. And it can be it can be a substance or it can be literally anything. It could be a person, yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah, it could be a hobby, literally turning to anything when you should be turning to God first.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

I wish I could get addicted to like working out. Like some people are, and I'm like, but I remember my sister told me, once you start doing it, you're gonna get addicted. I'm like, that has never happened. I don't wake up and we're like, oh my god, I can't wait to go to the gym. We don't wish that for you on the lake. No, no, no. So funny.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Okay, so you got to that point, and so now you have this awareness of like, okay, I can't keep turning to this substance, in this case, drinking to feel better. Did you sorry, go ahead? No, that I mean that was it.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

I'm just Did you have a moment? I'm thinking just like, um I'm not I don't not to project, but I'm thinking like in my own circumstances or what I can relate to. And I know you said you were hiding a lot of things, but were were there moments in that drinking where um you were aware of like, oh, what I'm doing is bad, or this is taking me away from God.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yes. So, you know, it's the classic like, I'm never gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Wake up the next morning. I'll tell you, one one morning I woke up and um I had two some alcohol that was empty and I didn't have it the night before. So at some point in the middle of the night, I was drunk and I got it. And so I went, I looked through my bank statement, I was like, oh my. God, I went to two different stores in the middle of the night. And I so that I remember sitting on my this was like maybe three weeks before I ended up deciding I need to go to treatment. But like um I remember sitting there going like oh this is not this is bad. Like I don't even remember that I drove somewhere, yeah, two different locations. Yeah. I mean, like it it's crazy to me that nothing worse happened. Um I guess, you know, I don't know, but like, um, no, I do know that's exactly what that was. Um but and so I had that moment where I'm like, I can't do this again. And I tell you, like, I I woke up one time and I couldn't eat soup because my hand was shaking so bad because I was going through withdrawal. I didn't know that at the time.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

And I was like, oh my God, I can't drink like I did, I must have drank too much last night. I can't do that again. And before I got home that evening, I was already drinking. So it wasn't like so. I had those moments of awareness where like, this is too far. It's too much. I need to stop. But I did, I couldn't, I couldn't just stop. Like I was like, yes, that's a great idea. I remember Billy saying once to me, my family had never really talked about or understood alcoholism. What does that look like to turn to another substance? We didn't really deal with that. I found out later some of my family had, but I didn't know. Uh-huh. Um, my dad was an alcoholic, but I didn't know because by the time he had us and was married to my mom, he was sober. Yeah. And so we know and he had found Jesus, and like, you know, so we never even talked about it. I didn't know until I until later on. But um, yeah, I just think we we talked about once and Billy's like, I mean, alcohol's not doing anything good for you. Why don't you just stop? And I was like, that is a great idea. I want to just stop. And I could I don't know how to tell you, but I just could not. I could not stop.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

And you what you said it right. Like the first step in all of it is acknowledging that. Like, okay, this is unmanageable. Um, I'm powerless over this, and I need something bigger than me, which is God to help me wow get over this and through it and healed from it and move on. And that's what God did.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

I mean, you know what I love about this too? Even hearing that your dad had dealt with this at some point in his life, it just is such a solid reminder that we have we should in a utopia be so honest with our faults and our past faults that even if we're not that person anymore, but how shame will try to keep even that a secret, something that you've conquered, because it really allows other people to have permission to be honest with their faults. Totally. Because I I wonder, what do you think if you had known that about your dad? Do you think you would have gone to him? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Yeah, I think I would have been, I think I would have been more aware of it. Like, oh, this could maybe be a problem. Right. If I keep turning to this, you know, because it wasn't at first. Like drinking for me, I loved it. Like I was the self-appointed bartender at every family gathering party, you know. Like, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna make a drink. This is gonna be the drink for Christmas this year, and I'm gonna make this one. And everyone was like, awesome. And no one was getting drunk or anything, but it was just like fun. And then at some point, and they say this, you know, in AA, like it ceased being a luxury and it became a necessity.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

I no longer enjoyed it anymore. It was just be a means to an end, you know, kind of thing. And I think maybe having the knowledge that this is something people in my family have struggled with, yeah, I would approach it differently. Like I think about my nieces and nephews now that know that, hey, this isn't our family and won't even probably ever touch alcohol because of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

This is blowing my mind because it's something that's so simple. Something as simple as like you go into church camp one summer, and that one decision really shifted a lot of people's life trajectories, and something as simple as like mentioning this little tidbit of information that can actually be so impactful. And I even think about like, you know, my own family, it's like okay, let's be careful of what I say. But I mean, okay, I'll just say like my dad just not having the ability to just cope with his temper well. But because of even that knowing, I'm like, I'm never gonna marry a guy that has a bad temper. You know, just like that little bit of information, or like with a lot of people that are listening, know Jordan's history. So these are just it's it doesn't have to be a huge deal, but just something to keep like in your pocket to be mindful of and you have a knowing of it so you can have like, I don't know, foresight when you make other decisions. Like that simple thing of like it would have been on my radar, not to blame anyone or anything, but it's like, I don't know, it's very no pun intended, but sobering. Yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

And to be to the little act of which is not little, of being honest and transparent with the people you love and in your world, or even just like people you randomly like, I'll go to coffee with some, and I don't have any shame in this anymore. I did for a while, but I don't have any shame. I'm like, look, I was here, God did this, this, this, and my life is completely different now because of it. That can change somebody. Like, you have no idea, right? There's just power in a testimony. You you both know that. And so, even just sharing and being honest with people, man, it makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

It makes such a big difference. I mean, that I would say is one thing about our church that has kept me there from the beginning because I've shared this before on the podcast. It's like I had so much shame that I had a kid and I wasn't married, but I never once felt like it wasn't um condone, like no one said, like, it's okay, keep doing that. You know, no one said that. But what they did make me feel like is I I I won't be judged harshly for it. And I didn't feel pushed out, you know. Every bit of a negative feeling that I had about it was from me saying it to myself. Yeah, yeah. And maybe the conviction of God, you know, being like, okay, let's be better. No, for sure. Yeah. Man, that's I I love too that you say that you have no shame about it. Um, not to keep mentioning Jordan, but like when we first started dating, I was actually so impressed and honestly more confused just because of um how I have a tendency to be performative, really. I was confused that he was so honest with his history of addiction. I'm like, wow, you didn't think I would like judge you for it. Like you really didn't care what I thought at all, actually. Like he was so free from it.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

And it impressed me that he can just be that open and not feel shame.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Well, people relate more with our failures than they do with our successes. Right. If I sat down here and told you everything that I've accomplished and done, you'd be like, oh wow, okay, cool, cool, cool. But if I'm like, dude, I messed up here, yeah, I failed here, right? Like I this happened and then now look where I am. That's the thing that people key in on. They're like, oh, okay. So there's hope.

SPEAKER_03 50:59

Yeah. Softens people. That's why testimonies are so powerful. Because you can explain all of the all of the the bad and the ugly. And being and seeing somebody that is free from that shame that doesn't try to hide it, is like, I feel like that does people who are new to recovery. I think that that's probably the most, I can't say this for sure, I don't know, but like, but just being able to see somebody walk from shame, whether it be in recovery or something else that you've done, is what you said like gives you the most hope. Then you can feel like, because so many people think, I can't, I can't walk with God because I've done so many bad things. Or God's not gonna accept me because I've done so many bad things. And then when you see people living that other lifestyle and they can say, Look at the bad things I did too. And it's not condoning it, but it's the demonstration of being free from shame, then you can be like, Oh, that's right, I'm not that bad.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Yeah, definitely the hope of like it's possible, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

And like it's definitely not like m my creator and my heavenly father telling me this stuff, telling me that I should be ashamed, yeah, that I should be separate or not going to church.

SPEAKER_00 52:10

Yeah. Someone once said to me, Um, you know, the stuff you tell yourself in your head, like I'm I'm very critical of myself. Like the what you just said, like you shouldn't go to church. Yeah, you're not gonna do that. Would you ever say that to someone you love, like the things you say in your head, then it's not of God. Yeah, like that is not that's literally the enemy saying these things to you, and you would never even imagine saying that to a friend or a loved one, like never come out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

Yeah, that's great. That's I heard somebody say once, like, would you be friends with the voice in your head? Which is pretty much exactly what you're saying. Yeah, and that is like another way to look at it too. Like, it's that per whatever that voice is telling you those things, would you be friends with that person? Would you let your friend talk to you that way? Would you talk to your friend that way? No, walk away from it.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 52:56

What what do you think are so considering your upbringing, right? And your journey of even getting sober and conquering that, did you at any point feel like, oh, these are seeds from my childhood that are now producing fruit as I'm able to now that I'm sober and I could even share my testimony, like I don't not sure if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

I think Yeah, there's a lot in in the whole process, there's a lot of looking back right and seeing, you know, things for the how they were. Um and I'm I'm very grateful that I grew up in the household I did.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

No, no house is no family's perfect, right? Like there's dysfunction and it's some level in every family, but um the family I had, you know, how close we are even today. Yeah, we're like best friends all over. And that a lot of that happened after my dad passed away. It really brought us closer together. But um yeah, looking in the past and being like, oh, I'm grateful because some a lot of people don't have that to fall back on to be like, I knew my family was not gonna walk away from me when I was struggling. I knew it. I knew it without a doubt. Like there was the uneven, I didn't know if I'd have a job, I didn't know if I'd have my apartment, I didn't know if I have my car, I didn't know any of that stuff. But what I knew was my family was still gonna love me. Yeah, and not a lot of people have that. And so for that piece, yeah, I'm I'm super grateful um to have that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

Yeah. I don't know if that answered your question earlier, but like I like I was trying to figure out even like how to word my question, but that's really great. I I think really just even thinking about like, oh, those things that happen, because I have these moments where I'm like, oh, that happened in my childhood that equipped me for this, or like that had to happen so that I could be here. And just like how you're saying how we could look past that things and like again, hindsight of 2020 things start to make more sense as we look more.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

The um, like, thank the Lord that it didn't last longer. Yeah, yeah. They you know, it was probably the worst thing you ever went through as you were going through it, but praise God it wrapped it up, Cornet, and it happened when it did.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah, because I was ready to make those changes um and to actually like follow through with it. You know, I I went to treatment when I was 42 and I went of my own accord and I paid for it out of my own pocket and it was a lot of money, yeah, drained my savings. But I know Billy said to me once he was like, I think God gave you that money for this for that, like it was the provision for this. And so when I went to treatment, everyone there was counting down the days. No one was there of their own accord, you know. And I was counting down the days too. I didn't, I didn't want to be there for long, but I I said to myself, like, the money I'm paying for this, the time I'm taking out of my life, I don't think I could ever do this again. I'm gonna get everything I can out of every moment here. That's crazy. And it made me have a different perspective than everybody, all the women that I was encountering there because of that. And so even that, I was like, the timing, God knew, like this was the time for this to happen. Like all that we don't know, you know. I wish sometimes, like, would I have not just dealt with that like 10 years ago or something instead of four? Yeah, but God knows.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Yeah, yeah. It makes me think, even how you're mentioning the people that you encountered when you were there, that although you went there to get clean, it's but there's always multiple lessons that's happening from this one seed. And even to think probably the seeds that were planted from people meeting you in there, like who knows the fruit that has, you know, now harvested, hopefully, for some of those people that you encountered is like super powerful. When did you uh I thought this actually when you shared at the women's gathering your testimony? Um, I don't know why I didn't just ask you actually, but I was wondering leading up to because who asked you? Did Jen ask you to share? Yeah. Okay, so like was there any bit of like um feeling, I don't know, scared to share, nervous about it, how people would receive it, even thinking about like others' perceptions of you and just being who you are in our community, like all those things, like what were the thoughts that you were having leading up to sharing that testimony? Because I think everyone that received it, if anything, was like, wow, Vic. Like blown away. Yeah. This is a beautiful story.

SPEAKER_00 57:27

I was so scared at first, and which is different because I'd been an AA at that point for maybe two years. Um, and telling my story to other people that are like me, right, super easy. Right. I mean, they're like, Yeah, we get it, you know, like we joke about things that you shouldn't joke about. Like, I wouldn't make a joke now, I wouldn't say it and expect you to laugh. But if I said it in an AA meeting, everyone would laugh, like we get it, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

And then there was that piece of it's in church. And that whole like how I had to be a certain way, look a certain way, you know, I'm on staff, uh, all the stuff before. I never I haven't felt that at 116 at all, but like it for sure popped up, and I was like, what don't I say? Like, I need what should I not say here? Um, and I was trying to like, I don't want to mince my words, but I also was like, I have to be careful. Like that my first reaction was like, I have to be careful what I say and don't say in church about this. And then I I think God just really freed me of that. I'm like, That's cool. Look, it is what it is. I think me being transparent and saying this is what I struggled with maybe might open the door for other women to be like, oh, I don't have to hide.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

And it might not be something with alcohol, it might be something else. Maybe your marriage is struggling, maybe you know, whatever. And I think if you walk in freedom, freedom, it gives people the opportunity to maybe like do the same.

SPEAKER_04 58:50

Almost gives people. And I think that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Yeah, like a lot of women. I I heard some stories that night of where women shared things that they never shared before, and there's so much freedom in that. So I was, yes, scared at first. And then I was like, you know what? And I had all my notes, and I think I looked at them once because I kind of feel like God's gonna just take it the direction he wants to take it. And there's nothing I I think about like what didn't I say? Well, I wanted to say that, and then I just I give myself like 30 seconds to think about that. And I'm like, you know, like I'll do that after this podcast. I'll be like, I didn't say that, or I should have said, and then I'm like, whatever, you know, it is what it is at this point, and I just trust that God kind of is gonna use it.

SPEAKER_03 59:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

I feel like we do that with every episode.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

Oh my gosh, I'm a mess after every episode. Are you especially we alternate with who picks the topic? If Kim picks the topic, I'm great. If I pick the topic for days, I'm like, oh everybody's gonna hate that one thing. So stupid.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

But we do that to ourselves, like both of us. No one else is thinking that. It's just us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:49

Yeah, nobody's nobody is. But I the I just want to really like keep pressing on this. I think it's the second time I've said this since we've been here, but like exactly what you just said, the ability to talk about the ugly parts and how that frees people is transformative. And I think um a narrative that the enemy will give us is that if you talk about it and you're okay with it, it means you're condoning it or it means that it's okay. Yeah, so don't share it because you don't want other people to think it's okay. And even if you're you're you feel like you're free of shame for yourself, like it's always going to be used for good. You know, what what um the devil meant for bad, God's gonna use for good. And I love I this is like a weird thing to say, but I like I love people who have come out of addiction. I feel like it's been around my entire life. I'm I'm married to a man in recovery. Um both of my parents have had have come out of addiction, and it automatically makes me want to like I feel like I understand somebody more. I feel like I can see them in a different way. And it's just like there's nothing that should keep us so bound to our shame that keep cause that that those shameful parts are in that part of that testimony is what's gonna open doors for people. That's right. Like people are gonna share things that they never thought they would, and then it's gonna break chains.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Or you're gonna open up even relationships you thought you could never have, like the way you and Jordan, where you were like, I'm I love that you have no shame with this, that you're not worried about that. And we can all like as you know, self-proclaimed performative or perfectionists, then sit back and be like, it's not it's okay. Yeah, we're gonna it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yeah, it's gonna be okay. I even think that when you know someone personally that has been through that journey, because we love our husbands, because we love Vic, because we love these people where we know like what they've been through, that it gives a grace for someone that's walked that journey, even if you don't know them.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:54

Yeah, it increases your ability to love others.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

And so it's yeah, how you're saying when you meet someone that's in recovery and has conquered an addiction, that you automatically feel like almost like an understanding with and for them. And so even if I had met someone that I didn't know at all, but I know their testimony, I have a different grace for them. Yeah, because I know really amazing people that have walked that path.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

And it doesn't make anyone less than because of it. If anything, it's the opposite. No, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

It gives you so much power. Yeah, like I mean, it brings so much glory to God too.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

Like, um, yeah, it really does. So fast forward, it's now been four years. Yeah. And you're married now. How long have you been married for?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:39

Three months, like two uh just a couple days ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Three months mark.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

And I mean how long have you guys been married? Um, we got married in 2022. Okay. So not uh of November. Okay, so almost you're going on almost four years. Yeah, so three and a half years. Two years. Two years. So we've all been married under five. Yeah, we're all newlyweds. Yeah. Congratulations. Congratulations, all of us in the brain married. Yeah, praise God. We've made it. Now we can give marriage advice and just getting the book.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

How um how did that happen? How much do you want to tell us about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

I mean, how much time do we have? It's a long story case. Spoiler alert, that toxic relationship that I talked about um that I was in before I got sober was with him. Oh my goodness. It was with him. Yeah. Talk about redemption. It's a redemption story, like, and I I I love redemption stories, so I think I wanted it. Yeah, you know, towards the end. I didn't at first when uh so we broke up. Gosh, I actually love this so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

I know because I knew that you were in a relationship. We had gotten coffee once and you had mentioned it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

Wow. Yeah cool. Okay, sorry, keep going. Yeah, well, we broke up right before I went into treatment. Yeah. Um, and I think now looking back, it was the grace of God because I'm I when I love somebody, it is so hard for me to move on, even if it's not good for me, especially if it's not good for me. That was the history I had with men in my life. And so I was really worried that I was gonna like pine after him and all this stuff. And so I we broke up, went to treatment, and it was like God took it away from me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

And I remember I didn't, I didn't think about like, you know, wanting to be with him, getting back together with him. I was done. And all I wanted to do was work on getting like in recovery. Like, I want to be better. I want to, I wanna conquer this problem of alcohol in my life, and I want to grow and be a better person. And I remember asking my uh counselor at the time, like, is that is it weird that I just am over it? Like, there's no because we've been together for four years. I'm like, is it weird that I just am done? And she's like, No, I think you knew it was supposed to be done and for a while until you finally ended it. And you know, fast forward, so he wanted to stay together and you wanted to get back together. So he reached out a lot and finally I was like, look, I I can't, I'm gonna have to block you, like you know, all that stuff. And I said it in a nice way, but I'm just like, I I have to because I I can't do both, and I think that's what it was at the time. I think God was like, that's gonna be too much for you to get sober and also be fix and somehow like grow in this relationship. It was too much. That is so good, really, really, really good. So for a year he wanted to be back together with me, but I didn't, you know, and then you know, I would say, like, maybe I time my timing is off on it. But at some point I was like, maybe he was the one. Maybe, maybe I should have leaned into that. And so I reached out to him and he was in a relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:47

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

He was saying someone, and I was mad at the time. I was like, Oh, because we talked and I was like, Oh, he's done so much work. And I've done so much work and like we've grown individually. Yeah, and now he's gonna be in a relationship with another woman. Yeah. So mad.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

I'm like, you're supposed to be waiting for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

And I'm like, no, he shouldn't have. You know, so then then I felt like I needed it was time for me, and this is what I kind of experienced was grieving the loss of that relationship. I couldn't have grieved it at the same time as getting sober, but a couple years later I could. And I did. And I was just reading through my journals. I was like, that's it. I'm going to be single.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

I am done. I'm going to be single. You know, I wanted, you said this in I think one podcast where you were like, you know, women that come to you and are struggling with something, and you want to be like, I know it's like you know it's going to be fine. Right. But you want to have compassion.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Like I wanna say that necessarily too.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:38

Like 21-year-old women that are like distraught because they've waited so long for their husband. And I'm like, yeah, okay, are you freaking kidding me? I love in my 40s. I wanted to be married and have my first kid by the time I was 25.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

Done. And I wanted three kids. Like that was my story. And none of that happened. So I'm in my 40s, you know, at this point. And I was just like, I'm I'm done. I don't have, first of all, you know, sex is it's um, it's not that it's overrated, but I was like, it's unnecessary. Yeah. That's what I wrote in my journal. It's unnecessary. I don't need it. I don't have to have a physical connection with anyone ever again. And I don't have to like, you know, be married. And I don't have to, I'm fine. I have nieces and nephews. I don't have to have a I don't have to have a kid. I have nieces and nephews. They're gonna have kids.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:24

I'm good, you know, like and when we try to reason with ourselves, that's so crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:30

But I think there was a point where I was like, I need to be okay, not looking for in I spent so many years longing for what I didn't have. Like it was under the surface in everything I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

I just got chills. That is literally like even in the way how that that feeling of um maybe missing him, how God was able to like pluck that out. Like I literally pictured God coming in with like tweezers and just like plucking it out in the way that he can so completely remove it at the root and just remove it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

But even just that he could be so good to now reposition us where that we're no longer making other things above him, right? That really we needed that. But how he was able to orient that in your in your story in a way where it just like it it flowed like that. And before you realize it, you're like, I'm free.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah, totally free, and okay, like wow, honestly, okay. And now, you know, I've been married three months, which is not long, but I want to say like last month, I was looking back over some stuff, journals and things, and um that pain and that loneliness that I felt sometimes stronger than others, but always felt, always felt because you know, my family had all been married, you know, they all had immediate family, but my immediate family was my siblings.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

And so there was always this like lack. Like I just had this, I was surrounded by love, people, but I felt lonely. I'm like, I go home to bed by myself. Yeah, I make all my decisions by myself with God, but like not having, you know, now like you bounce it off of your husband. You're like, hey, what do you let's pray about it together, let's whatever. And so that pain I felt first. I don't even remember what it feels like. Wow. It's been three, I don't even remember what it feels what it felt like. That's so God can change that. And if someone had told me that when I was single, I would have been like, okay, whatever. But like I really mean it. It changed like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:32

Wow. It's crazy. Yeah, he changes your desires in your heart.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Okay, and just real quick, Psalm 37, 4. It's uh God will give you the desires of your heart. Someone framed that for me once where it wasn't like he will give you what you want, but he puts in you the desires you have. Yeah, like he'll give you the desire. So what I was longing for, all this stuff, it just was gone. And then when I got it, it's crazy. Like people are like, when you're not looking for it, it'll show up. And I never believed that crap. Now I'm like, it kind of.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:04

So question to question. The the I know that your husband, his name is Matthew. Matthew. Um, that you dated him previously, but when you were, I don't know, young, or at any point when you pictured like who you were going to marry, was it does he fit all those qualities? She is it. Yeah, and this is the opposite. Was it the opposite for your both of us married somebody that we never ever would have thought? And so just what you were saying about like gives you the desires of your heart and the way that like it's not everything you want, like gimme, gimme. It's this is my these are my dreams. It's like I'm gonna just um prune you and tenderize you and move you. So now this is the desires of your heart because this is what this is what is perfect for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

But you just got what you wanted.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:52

Yeah, well, physically speaking, I mean like, yeah, he would be my he matches my celebrity crush, you know, like pretty, pretty close. And so that piece is great. Um, but yeah, I always wanted to be with a kind man. Yeah, just kind, and he is so kind to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:09

You know, I have said hi to him a handful of times, but in those even handful of times, like you can uh normally like sense when even from like a hello with people, not to assume, but yeah, but he does have like a um, I don't know, kindness is like a perfect word. Like even how someone says hi back, because I could be like, you know, good morning, and they're like, good morning. But it's like when he says it's it's like full, like genuine kindness, fully present saying good morning back.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:38

He definitely has calmed me down, um, slowed me down in a good way. Because I'm just like a go-go, which I imagine you probably are somewhat too, like just get it done, move, move, move constantly. And he's like, Hey, can we just sit for a second? Like, I'll come home from work and then I'm just like I start cleaning. And he's like, Can we just stop for a second? I'm like, Oh, yeah, we can. We should, we should stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

Another scripture, but like, come to me, all who are you know, um heavy laden. Yeah, and um, I'll give you rest. It's he's giving you rest, yes, and he gave you rest through your husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

Yeah, that's beautiful, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

And now you get to like take it easy, put your feet in running around you get to chill.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

He literally massages my feet every day. And I never even knew I wanted like word enjoy a foot massage. Like you never did that, and then he started doing it, and I was like, hold on, yeah, this is amazing. Yeah, every day. I put I literally put my feet up every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

I think the moral of the story is everyone that has plans just throw them away. Yeah, it's not they're not as good.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:52

Trust me, they're just not, yeah. Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:55

It's funny, like I'm even thinking about like um made so many mistakes in my 20s and so many things were I thought I had planned, and it's just not even remotely close, not even hitting the target board, like at all, you know, like 18 having my map left out, life mapped out, like how much of a joke is that? 18 thinking like you know the rest of your life, you know? But got to a point where I just feel like the um the standard of success as years went just got lower and lower and lower. And I remember like in my like maybe mid-20s thinking, like, okay, Kim, well, the thing that you could not mess up is having a kid out of wedlock. That'll be the thing where it's like, okay, you haven't completely failed. Oh wow. Not having your line. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, that's like the bottom line. You're fine long as you don't have a kid out of wedlock. And then I had a kid out of wedlock. And then I just felt like I had like, wow, Lord, literally every single goal and plan that I thought I had for myself, I just completely missed it. But genuinely, how God will just turn it into something so beautiful. And now I look at Kendrick, I'm like, I can't imagine life without like you're such a joy, you know? But even now hearing your story with Matthew, I'm like, wow, everything that we thought, even when you got to the point of like, oh yeah, I don't, I'm over him. Yeah. And then how God will just come and swoop back in and be like, no, this is a good thing that I had in the storehouse for you. That now you're ready. Timing cool. Timing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

I wish it all could be quicker.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Yeah, right. Say that again. But actually that's changing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:40

I would say now I'm like slowing down is a really I like it. It's not my knee-jerk, you know, default reaction, and it probably never will be, but I do like slowing the pace down and actually really enjoying life with the people I love and the stuff that's really important. Yeah, being with God, like my mornings, all that stuff. That was never it was like a to-do. Gotta do, gotta do, you know, gotta check that off. You know, I gotta spend time with God, I gotta read my Bible, you know, this years ago. But now it's like that's my joy. Like, I I love those times when you show me upstairs your space. I was like, oh my god, I love this space. I would love this space.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:20

I'm glad you had that response too, because I felt that in my soul.

unknown 1:15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:23

Like, I love a slow morning, even like on vacation. I'm like, oh god, especially on vacation.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:29

Slow morning, quiet. I always every day need a slow morning. Yeah, I don't schedule anything before 10 for that reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:36

That's nice, yeah. I like that. I'm gonna start doing that. Yeah, I'm gonna tell my boss.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Yeah, it will back you up. Um, you have any last thoughts here? Last words. Um, are we wrapping it up? Um, um, I mean, I still have like a handful things. Keep going. But you don't have anywhere you need to be. No, okay. So this was from the last coffee talk episode. Okay. That I thought this was like so good. I'm talking back to you guys a lot of times where I'm like, we're to the point because it should be like a conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Like you should be in the in the room with us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:13

Like we said or I said earlier, I feel like I know you and like it's probably strange because I listen to you every week, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:22

Yeah, and I feel the same way about you guys when I listen to it. It's just very like you feel like you know the people you're in the room.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:32

But um, so you guys were talking about on the episode about masculine versus feminine energy. And I I want to say you even told Bill, like, you'll probably hate this word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

Because I don't like the energy word.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

Neither do I just how culture has hijacked it. But you guys listening get like the essence of what we're saying, how that has shifted from being married and now having a man of the house there. And we had even talked about how we're so used to just doing it on our own because we really had to, like, who else is gonna do it, you know? Um, but those moments where you're having to slow down, like you were saying, and remind yourself that like let's create margin to let my husband be the man of the house. Um, can you, I don't know, practically kind of paint a picture of how that's been and how that's been something that you've had to change? It's only been three months, but yeah, I mean it's something me and Jordan constantly butt heads about it because that is like a tension that we're not even aware of sometimes until we actually slow down and talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:35

Yeah, I would not have been aware of it until uh the therapist that we work with, which she's so it's so helpful, like to have somebody unbiased and knowledgeable help you with your relationships, you know. For real. We started seeing her, he's seen her for eight years by himself, and then we started seeing her together. But um the the feminine masculine energy thing is like essentially she I kind of explained like some of the fights we'd have or whatever. And and I've just been so used to being in control because I've had to. And it wasn't like a burden or anything, it's like I like the idea of like somebody filling taking my car and filling up my gas, like I'm like, what? Like I first of all, I don't need that, like I can do that. Um, but then also like I need that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:23

Well now I need it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:24

Now I need it. I didn't know I needed it. Now I need it, but um just because I just didn't have it, you know. And so like it's uh when we were dating, he did not want me to get out of the car on my own. He'd want to park, walk around. What a minute. Still to this day. Yeah, that's great though. Yeah, like wait, I need to sit still. Yeah, five seconds. And I'm like, oh my God, five, like, I'm just sitting there. It's the most uncomfortable five seconds when it first started happening. Because I'm like, I can open my door. I don't need him to open it. Um, and I told my counselor, and she's like, What why don't you just pray for him in that moment? Like just something be like, oh, I do so much for this man that you know, like loves me. And I was like, okay. So I'm not thinking about like what I could get done with that extra five seconds, because that's where my brain goes. I'm like, we could be in the store already. Yeah, you know, if I just opened my own door. And so she was like, just pray for him. So I'm like, okay, that's super powerful. Like, if I grab the door to open it, he's like, let it happen one more time. Like, don't touch the I'm like, okay, yeah, you know, and it's letting him step into this, I think, divine how men were created to be, you know, and that's a generalization, but there is a divine, like there is men and women. And so, like, protecting, like he is a protector by nature, right? Yeah, provider by nature. And like, so even just the small thing like opening the door for me is protective in a way. When he holds my hand and we're walking, he wants to be on the outside by the road. That used to bother me so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

Like, I'm like, you're making me move. It used to almost feel like an inconvenience. Or make me feel like I'm weak.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Yeah, but that's how I would feel, and not he wasn't doing that, but I would feel like, but I'm okay, like I don't need that. And then I realized, like, maybe I do, maybe I need to chill out and stop trying to control and run everything and let him be who he's supposed to be. And our and it's awesome. And I keep telling him you've created a monster awesome. You're wait for three minutes. If you get out of the car, I'm not getting out of the screen.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

You're not there, still in the car is in the store. Yeah, totally. That's something we do all, I think, have to reframe.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:30

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just the part the point of like masculine and feminine, feminine energy. That is it's a weird thing to say, and it's using the energy, which is like more of like let's say tendency language, yeah, but it truthfully it's how God designed us, yeah, and that's the truth, that's the truth. And when you're in God's design, things just flow easier, right? And it just works. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

It's like it's there's an ease to it and a piece, you know, kind of being who you were created to be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:03

They're designed to hold that capacity and to operate in that way. I really do feel like that. Um, it's little things like Kim in her 20s would say, I don't like flowers, you know? But now I'm like, Are you kidding me? I love flowers. Yeah, they give me some flowers.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:19

I bought a vase, a new vase, and I was like, for and I told him, I was like, this is for when my husband buys me flowers. I know sometimes I'll be like, Baby, in a hurry, so is it okay if I get my door? And he's like, Yes, you can get your door. I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:39

I love that though, even just that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:43

It's awesome. It's a different way of life. And I, you know, I'm 46, about to be 47, and I've lived that way for so long. It's not wrong, but that's just how I've lived. You know, like even me, I open the door for other people. They walk in before me. So we would always stumble over each other because he'd be waiting for me and I'd be waiting for him. And then he's like, What are you doing? I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, let me walk through the door, you know, kind of stuff. And it's just those are little simple, yeah, fun things, but it's the bigger stuff too, like, you know, plans and you know, bills, and like, did you pay it? Well, you didn't pay it, it just came out, it came out three days ago, or it came out 30 seconds ago. You did you see the email? And he's like, I don't check my email every five minutes. And I was like, You don't?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Like, why would you not check your emails in five minutes? I love the door analogy though, because that is such a perfect just picture of if there's two people trying to get the door at the same time, you end up stumbling. And that's exactly what happens when it's like the man is trying to lead, the woman is trying to lead, and you're just gonna both get stuck in the door trying to go through at the same time. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:48

You got a husband for to be do husband things and a wife to do wife things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:52

Speaking of cooks, you gotta cook in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

Yeah, thank God.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:55

That's so awesome. You cook a little. I mean, not a ton, but yeah, I know I don't cook. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

He was gone all week. I ate twice. I mean, one of the times I ate, your sister, Christiana, bought me a Christmas. Oh my gosh. He came home last night. God, I don't care. Speaking of creating a monster, yeah. I as soon as he got home, I started falling asleep. I was like, my nervous system complete different.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

Especially scientific. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:25

I was like, oh my gosh. I'm like, aren't you tired? I'm like half falling asleep, and he's like, No.

unknown 1:23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:32

No, that's actually a good point. Because when Jordan's gone, even Kendrick will feel it. He'll be like, he has never asked me, Mom, did you make sure the door is um locked? And even the balcony sliding door, is it locked when Jordan was gone one night? Kendrick popped his head out over here. He's like, Mommy, that that door that moves like sideways, is that locked? And I'm like, What made you you'll feel safe with me with so much? But he felt like the absence of interesting Jordan, yeah. And obviously we didn't teach him that. He just feels that. Yeah, that's crazy. That's funny, you fell asleep. You're like, I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. There you go. Yeah, yeah. Your one coffee cup. That's okay. Um, okay. This will be, I think, my last question that I have. Um, feel free to chime in. What's a small random moment, even if it's from these three months of being married, um, where you you felt like, okay, God, wow, I I see you of just that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:41

I feel like there's been so many.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Right. Um I feel like I have moments that pop up randomly where it's even like Kendrick going to baseball, where I'm just like grateful that we're one nuclear family. And just the small moment of like Jordan playing a video game and he beats Kendrick, or I'm like, I don't mind if he if he beats me, I'll let him win. Of okay, these are like this is forming this young man that we're raising. Those small moments of like, okay, thank you, God. Maybe not so much of a God I see you, but like a thank you, God moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:23

Well, every time he opens the door. Yeah. No. Um, I mean, this is not like as deep, but I have some friends that are online dating right now. And um I still am the go-to, like to research the person, like give me their number or give me their real friend if I can find them, you know. And I had a friend go out last night on the date, and she was kind of giving me the look breakdown of it all. And I'm like, I'm so grateful that I don't have to do that anymore. Because I did that whole thing, and I have a husband that I'm sitting with right now as I research for her, you know, and he's rubbing my feet. And like those moments, I'm just grateful for Jones.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:06

It's his birthday when one of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:08

It's Jasper's birthday, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:12

No, that's that's actually a solid moment of like, thank god I'm not dating anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:21

But also being that friend that does the research is I will forever be that friend. Yeah, because I was in that world for so long.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:29

Man, the research world?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:31

No, the online dating, like having to look it up and like were you in the FBI? Yeah, no, I wish. We don't know, I wish I kind of want to end my life being a private investigator, like just start my own business and just wouldn't that be awesome?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:43

Count on a woman to find out information, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:46

No, seriously, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:48

That's the divine design.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:50

So random. There's this Facebook group called Are We Dating the Same Guy. Oh my goodness. And I found it when I was dating some guy. It was we only date like two months or something. This was a while ago, and um, you know, I was starting to pick up on some stuff. I was like, I feel like there's some red flags. I don't know, like you only talk certain times of the day or whatever. Yeah, weird. Um, like just little things, you're like, it's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:13

If you're online dating and you don't have social media, red flag in real life. I meet a man that doesn't do social media. I'm like, that's awesome, you know. Right. But like when you're out there, it's different. Yeah. So, anyways, found this group, got it, you have to like apply to get into it. So they make sure you're like a woman and whatever. And I searched his name, and he and I had just ended things with them. I was like, I don't, this is not gonna work, you know. And I searched his name, he was everywhere in there, and I was like, Oh my god, okay. So now now my friends have me look up in that group, you know, the other people they're dating just to make sure, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:46

Have you found other people?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:48

Oh my gosh. What a great group.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Whoever created that kind of. I mean, it also is a little weird. Like I would never comment or like anything in it, but if you want to see like other women's experience, you know, jump in. Women are great though, like you said, like just something fell off, not even really quite knowing. And then he just he was like he's like the number one offender. Like some bad really serious stuff in this group. And I'm like, oh my God, I like went out with this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:14

I heard the saying where it's like, if you see a red flag, if you see multiple red flags, it's not a circus and it's not a time to play. Those are actually warning signs. Yeah. So if you guys listening, red flag is a warning, not playtime.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:27

It's a sign from God and you should be listening. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:31

It's like they say, um, God will give you a message, and hopefully we are daughters that just receive the message, but then he'll send you a messenger. If you haven't received the message, he'll send you a messenger. You're still not receiving it, he'll just send you a mess.

unknown 1:28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:50

Then you get a mess. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. I wanted to hear the message. Yeah. The number of messes we've been in.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:56

I know. And do you want it to take two weeks or 40 years? I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:02

Which is basically where we get the title through it. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And we're really all going through it. But like what a blessing to be able to talk through it with people, to even pray through it with other people that could relate to what you're going through.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:18

That's why I love this. I mean, the podcast, the premise of your podcast is awesome. And everyone can relate with it. And also you guys have great voices. I hate the sound of my speaking voice. Which is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:29

It's crazy because you have, like you said, like, you know, when a podcast is warm in your ear, you have a warm voice. Not to mention you're a vocalist.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:37

So how crazy the hearing like the speaking, I can't stand the sound of my voice. And when I listen to your guys' voices, I'm like, it's soothing. It's like warm in my ears. Yeah. Not ever a word I would use to describe myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

So thank you. You received that compliment for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:53

Um, I'll ask one last question. Okay. Then we can wrap up. You brought some books.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:57

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

But you didn't get into any of them or open them up. Can you tell us what they are and why you brought them?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:04

That's yeah, very observant of you. I love that. I have my journal, my Bible, and uh a devotion I've done for years, Jesus Calling, um, which I go back to. I don't do it every year, but then I'll go back and I'd have the notes in it. So I didn't know what we were gonna talk about or what we would hit on um as far as life story. But um I I brought this Jesus Calling because I felt so disconnected from God right before I went into treatment. And I was the day I left, the morning I left for treatment, I was like, you know what? I I couldn't bring, I couldn't have music there, I couldn't have any so, but I brought books, I brought my Bible, and I could only bring so much stuff, you know, because I was flying to Florida. Um, so I I picked this up and I was like, I'm gonna bring this. And the morning, this I'm just gonna read to you what it said, right? Because this is where I was like, okay, my God is in control of my life. This is the next step he has for me. I'll probably get emotional when I read it. But okay, we love it. It says, Rest with me a while. You have journeyed up a steep, rugged path in recent days. The way ahead is shrouded in uncertainty. Look neither behind you nor before you. Instead, focus your attention on me, your constant companion. Trust that I will equip you fully for whatever awaits you on your journey. I designed time to be a protection for you. Wow.

unknown 1:31:24

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:25

Which I was about to go into this time where no connection with anyone outside of in my world, you know. You couldn't bear to see all your life at once. I can't even read it because I'm crying. Um, though I am unlimited by time, it is in the present moment that I meet you. Refresh yourself in my company, breathing deep droughts of my presence. The highest level of trust is to enjoy me moment by moment by moment. I am with you, watching over you wherever you go. And then this scripture verse, which is Genesis 28, 15. I am with you and will watch you, sorry, I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you. Wow. And it was just this, okay, peace, chills, God is with me. He knew this was gonna happen, he's going before me. I'm gonna take this moment by moment. I'm not gonna future trip about what does it look like 30 days from now? What does it look like 60 days from now? What does it look like a year from now? Right now. Yeah, just this moment, and I know God's with me, and he's gonna bring me back to the land, and he's not gonna leave me until he's done what he's promised he would do. It was such a just a confirmation, and I was like, okay, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:34

Um every word. Yeah. Was that the day that you were getting so the Jesus calling, it's a daily devotional. Yeah, that was the day I was getting on the plane. Wow. Every word was applicable. How divine. I love that. I've designed time to be a protection for you. Speaks volumes, even with the three of us, how things just didn't happen according to our timeline. But really, it was happening in a time and in a fashion that really was protecting us.

unknown 1:33:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:03

Somewhat prophetic, even saying, I'll bring you back, and then you end up marrying your husband. Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:08

I didn't even think about that. Oh, that is wild.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:11

Yeah, that is so good. Four years ago, almost five years ago. And he's like, just chill. Yeah. Always.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:19

Crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:20

Yeah. That was so awesome. So good.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:23

God is so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:23

God, our redeemer.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:24

Yeah. And then this is my journal. I I started journaling um about four years ago. And I I like to journal every day if I can. And sometimes it's just a couple lines, but I read them back. Like I go back to like the first entry, my first day of treatment, and I was like, this is awesome. I love it. I'm gonna get so in like three days in. I'm like, wait a second. But am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:45

Did I do the right thing? You know, like because you always kind of, at least for me, second guess. So I'm like, okay, this is what God said to do. I'm gonna do it. And then three days in, I'm like, it got really nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:55

Yeah, did he say it? Who am I listening to?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:58

Which is why journaling is so great, because it really anchors you on. I think it's in um, I never know if I'm saying this right, Habakkuk 2-2, where it talks about writing your vision and making it plain to see so that when you see it, you can run to it because of how our emotions really take us through like this up and down roller coaster to the point where we're like, maybe that wasn't you, guide. Um, okay, really, really last one. Really, really. Okay. Um, your journal, was there anything in there where you're like, I would love to share this? I even think that the Jesus calling was perfect, but I have to ask.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:32

No, not in this one. There wasn't anything. I I did read back, like I said, you know, about being single for life. I like I'm done. I'm just done. And I really felt it. Like I've said that before, like, I'm not gonna date anymore, you know. But whatever. But I was like for real, for real. Yeah. I'm good. And um, and I think that was I think God needed me to get to that point where I was done trying to control the outcome of my life in this area. You know, certain areas I was very comfortable turning over to God, but there were certain things where I'm like, He's not moving fast enough. Yeah, it doesn't look the way I wanted it to look, and I need it to, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:07

So isn't that that's it though? I know that feeling so well. Yeah, he's not moving fast enough. This isn't the outcome I wanted. Got him, I've got it from here. Why don't you just chill?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:16

Yeah, which controlling outcomes is sometimes good. Like sometimes people are paid to control outcomes, like that's your job. Like I need you to control how this is gonna turn out, you know, the results or whatever. But uh another AA statement is you know, God's in the result business, I'm in the action business. Yeah, I just gotta get going, yeah, yeah, moving, following him, and he's gonna can take take control of the results.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:40

Yeah, praise God, we're not in control of the results. Thank you. And the way that we're like, okay, we're actually done, done now. No, we're now we're done. No, actually now we're done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:50

I don't even want to be done. I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:52

Yeah, so true. But with everything, even with being single. I'm I'm really actually God, I want to be single.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:59

I can't wait for um I hope this doesn't sound weird. So but I can't wait for my mom to hear this. I hope it ministers to her because she has been is in that place of like I'm just supposed to be single for the rest of my life, and she's been single for uh gosh, I don't know, over ten years now, I think. And um even since then, like she's been really, really single for over 20 years. So um I and I keep telling her, like, look, you gotta find somebody because I can't take care of you when you get older. You gotta find somebody to help out. But um, she's like, nope, I'm just gonna be single forever. And she keeps saying, like, this God just wants me to be single forever. And I'm like, I don't know that that's the case. So I can't wait for her to hear this and I hope that it ministers to her that she's not in control, that she's not in the results business, and that she can just get back to the other with my dad. They're both single.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:01

Come on, just give it a chance. You never know. God is in redemption stories, his story is redemption, like Jesus. That's uh that's a redemption, the best redemption story there is. And so I I had to ask myself, is this really supposed to be, or do I just love the idea of a redemption story?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:17

So real though. Yeah, but no, it's there's a reason you're coming in now, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:23

Yeah, and I love romantic comedies. I want it all to be just brought back together and tied up with a bow, and then the movie's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:29

Hey, we all love a happy ending. Are you kidding me? Yeah, if the ending's not happy, I hate the movie. Yes, now I ruin the whole movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:35

Yes, I don't want to watch anything unless they end up together happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:40

Or they die together happy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:42

But even then, not a huge fan. I like the notebook. I'm not a huge fan of it because they end, but no, that's pretty sad. Yeah, it's too sad for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:49

I well, we've even talked about I have a hard time just watching movies all together anymore. Yes, same. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:55

Oh, it's not just that.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:56

I could watch like four episodes of a TV show, yeah, back to back. But a movie, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:01

Yes, TV like a series is perfect, yeah, but a movie is too long and not long enough at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:06

Yeah, no, I'm with you. Yeah, like you could have told the same plot and made it an hour shorter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:12

And it would have known for given me two months of content. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:19

That's so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:21

Um, we would love for you to pray. Okay. Um, we always close out in prayer. This was a conversation that could be never, never ending. Yeah. Um, so thanks for making time to come.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:32

Thank you so much. And being so forthcoming and just getting here early and just talking to us and letting us be nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:40

This was fun. This is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:42

Come back anytime.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:42

Okay, I'll be here next week. Sure. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:48

It's it's called through it, not finished it.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

Yeah. Right. Oh, yeah, completed it. Actively going through it. Yeah, cool. Yeah, that's great. We'll never get there, probably, which is cool. Yeah. Never arrive.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:01

That's that's I hope I never feel like I have arrived. I don't ever want to feel that comfortable, honestly. Either.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:08

No, not on this side of the ground. No.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:12

I'm with you. All right, I'll pray.

unknown 1:39:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:14

God, thank you just for who you are, and your love and your grace is unending, never leaves us. Even if we walk away or run away, God, you never leave us. You're always chasing after us. And I just thank you that you've done that in my life, you've done it in Kim and Ari's life. And God, I thank you that you're gonna do that in the people that listen to this podcast. I pray that the words that they heard today might cause them to be to have hope. That God, no matter what has happened in their lives, no matter what they've done or caused what others have done or caused to them, God, that you you are a redeemer of time. And um God, everything can turn out to good with you. And we just thank you that you're gonna do that in people's lives. I pray that when people hear this, they're drawn to the hope, they're drawn to freedom. God, that there is um life on the other side of tragedy. There's life on the other side of trauma. God, better than we could ever imagine or hope ourselves or even come up ourselves, God, is how good you are. And I just thank you that you're gonna do that in the lives of people that listen. I pray that people have the courage to surrender and to be honest and to um to be honest one with themselves and with you, and then with another person, God, just to say it out loud. The freedom that happens when people, when we can say out loud what's happening on the inside, uh, something breaks. It's not as big. And so I just pray for the um courage to do that for the people that are listening to this. And we just thank you for your hope and your grace. And we're grateful for you. God, help us to never arrive and to always be searching and to seeking, to um, be seeking after you and the things of you. Thank you for meaningful relationships. God, honest and true, meaningful relationships that go deep, that aren't just surface, God, that we don't have to hide, that we can be um who we're intended to be, who you created us to be in our relationships. God, I pray for single women that are in pain and that are lonely and maybe won't admit it or have admitted it for so long that they stop talking about it. God, I thank you that you have given them the desires of their heart. To be with somebody is not something they've created in their head. You've put that in them for a reason. And so I thank you that you give them peace um and strength to walk through the season that they're in, God, and hope that that will be different in the future. And we just ask all these things in your name. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:36

Amen. That was beautiful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:39

Yeah, thanks, guys. It's fun.