Saddle Talk with Sandy and Cara
'Saddle Talk with Sandy and Cara' is hosted by two saddle sisters, keeping you company one ride at a time. We discuss life, love, horses of course, and all the unexpected turns along the trail.
Saddle Talk with Sandy and Cara
Taming the Untamable: An Interview with 'Mustang Matt'
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A free pony, a borrowed trailer, and a kid who wouldn’t quit—that’s where Matt Bischoff’s horsemanship started. From mucking stalls for lessons to hunter-jumper roots and long miles packing in the Sierra Nevada, Matt built a life around taking “problem” equines and turning them into steady, useful partners. We sat down with him to explore what it really takes to gentle Mustangs, start colts, and lead safe, balanced pack strings through the backcountry.<br><br>Matt dismantles the biggest myths about wild horses. Mustangs aren’t a monolith; they’re individuals shaped by survival, wired for self-preservation, and quick to read your energy. He walks us through the foundation he relies on—pressure and release, timing and feel, and the 50/50 balance of trust and respect. Dominance for dominance’s sake won’t work, but neither will soft, vague friendship. The goal is fair, consistent leadership that teaches a horse to check in when stress hits.<br><br>You’ll hear the unforgettable story of Blue, a blue roan gathered from Modoc National Forest, passed between owners and trainers, written off as dangerous, and nearly euthanized. With patience and precision, Matt turned Blue into a reliable saddle and pack horse—one tough enough to stare down a grizzly and steady enough to pack elk. That transformation wasn’t magic; it was meticulous work: varying routines to avoid mindless repetition, staying present to catch small behaviors before they explode, and never losing sight of the horse’s identity.<br><br>Trail and packing fans get a masterclass in practical prep. Matt explains why a “just a trail horse” still needs full-body control, how to pony safely from round pen to open country, when to introduce cruppers and britching, and how to rig breakaways through the saddle tree to protect your string. We also talk about confidence—how to bring it into the round pen, why horses sense hesitation, and how clinic miles helped Matt translate barn lessons into life.<br><br>If you’ve ever wondered whether an “untrainable” horse can become invaluable, this conversation will change your mind and your program. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves Mustangs, and leave a quick review—then tell us the horse that taught you the most.
Welcome To Saddle Talk
SPEAKER_00Clip flop goes the trail sun is rising high two gals in the saddle neath the big Nevada sky laughing and chatting as the desert rolls on by it's saddle talk come along for the ride Welcome listeners to Saddle Talk with Sandy and Cara.
Meet Matt Bischoff
SPEAKER_03Whether you're here to laugh with us, learn, or just ride along, you're in for a really good time. So go grab your helmet or your pooper scooper and settle in with us as we discuss life, horses of course, and all the unexpected turns along the trail. And hey, whether you're a seasoned cowgirl or you're still learning, remember we're sharing our own stories and opinions based on decades of personal experience. Always ride safe and check with a professional before trying anything new. Now let's go ride. Hi Matt, this is Kara.
SPEAKER_05Hi Kara.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03I'm so excited. Matt, what is your last name?
SPEAKER_04Bischoff.
SPEAKER_03Sandy and I, we always tend to ask people this question, and it's just can you please describe the moment that you fell in love with horses? I because her and I both actually remember the moment we fell in love with horses. Do you happen to remember your moment?
SPEAKER_04Oh, that's a great question.
SPEAKER_05Um, so nothing like pops in my mind as far as like this aha moment or whatever, but when I was younger, I wanted a pony. I'll just tell you a quick story. Um you know, we were pretty poor. So my dad uh he said, Well, if you can, you know, find one for free, then you can have a pony. And so I was in 4H and I had goats, and we had, you know, I had stuff like that, and we had we always had animals. And I I was probably seven or eight, maybe nine-ish. I wrote up a flyer, you know, sketched it with like stick figures and whatnot. And we put it at I put it at the feed stores. Pony wanted to get home.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05And uh yeah, some lady called my dad. He she said, I have this little pony. I I can't remember the whole story, but you know, like her grandkids had it, and then they grew up, and so it just she was just paying board basically. And she's like, if you want it, you can come get it, but he's not very trained. And so that was Bucky, that was my first pony, a Welsh crob. He was what he was a pretty good sized pony, but he was Welsh Cobb, so he's about 13 hands. Oh, that's nice. Maybe maybe 13 and a half. Yeah, you I was probably about nine, eight, or nine. And uh, I didn't even have a saddle. We went and I remember we went and picked, borrowed a trailer, and went and picked him up, and he was he was pretty, pretty sassy, and he bucked me off a hundred thousand times. I didn't even have a saddle, and so yeah. So then I so he was my first pony, and uh there was about two miles from my house was uh like uh riding. Um they like boarded horses and she gave lessons. So I uh again, we didn't have a lot of money, so I would go over and muck the stalls, of course, and then I would and I would, you know, every day after school, and she'd give me riding lessons like one hour a week, you know. She'd give me a lesson.
SPEAKER_03I feel like the origin story of horse people, it's always like a yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02I was a little kid and I wanted a pony. Yeah, I think that's just I know.
From Hunter-Jumper To Packing
SPEAKER_05It's kind of it's kind of generic, but that's how it happened. A lot of people don't know this about me, and this is kind of a weird fun fact, is she taught every all disciplines, but I got into after I rode Bucky a lot, but then I started riding her nice horses. I did hunter jumpers into high school, and so a lot of people don't know that as my you know, my lot of my foundation of riding is hunter jumper, you know, and you know, it's funny because I'll do clinics and stuff at different various barns, you know, and then and people just think I'm a packer from Montana.
SPEAKER_02Right, and then you couldn't possibly know anything about their plan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think, right, right.
SPEAKER_02So, but anyway, so what made you get into Mustangs? Was there something that happened that you thought, hey, I'm gonna do wild horses?
First Mustangs And Why They Fit
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so in my 20s I started, you know, uh doing a lot of packing because I I started bow hunting a lot and I, you know, shot a couple, you know, I just really loved bow hunting and you know getting back in the backcountry. But when you shoot a bull elk, you know, six, seven, eight miles from the trailhead, it's a lot of work to get it out. So I I started to get a little bit interested in packing. And I I actually lived in California and did a lot of packing in the in the Sierra Nevada mountains up by Dune Lake and all over the Sierras. And I started doing a lot of packing with mules. I uh would get you know Craigslist mules and I would, you know, train train them and and and and and work with them, or people would give them to me and problem mules and stuff, and I started training them for packing, and I actually started working with them and getting them riding too. And so then I I kind of got the idea, I was like, well, Mustangs are pretty tough, you know. So I went over to Ridgecrest over there in Southern California. There's a pretty nice facility, and and I started, you know, looking into it a little bit more. And I thought, you know, I was I was pretty intimidated by it, but I was like, you know, I'm gonna just give it a shot. And I got my first Mustang, and with intentions of just just packing him and not doing anything else, you know, I didn't know if I could trust him ever to ride him, then you know, realized that these are pretty versatile horses and great for you know backcountry mountain horses, and you know, really fell in love with the whole idea of like, you know, just like those mules that nobody wanted, you know. I just kind of always had a an idea of like trying to, you know, take something that's worthless and make it valuable.
SPEAKER_03Wow. I feel like I was listening to your sort of origin story, and then what you're saying about oh heck, I'm just gonna do this. It just reminds me of you must have this very entrepreneurial spirit, and you just when you want something, you go for it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm definitely not cut of a cookie cutter mold of definitely always had little side hustles here and there, and always, you know, you know, I I don't know. So I've done a lot of things in my life, and yeah, I definitely a lot of people do say I have a, you know, and I mean that's the idea, is like if what's the worst that could happen, you know. I mean, I guess you can get you get killed, but you know, but there's a there's that or maimed. I think I think worse than getting killed would be like losing a limb, maimed or I mean I think a lot of times people, you know, they're very intimidated, and I'm not gonna lie, I was too, but you know, it's like you just break it down and start. You if you don't if you if you don't start, you can't fit, you know, can't learn, you know. So whether it's my personal life or my professional life, I'm around horses just about every day, 365 days a year.
SPEAKER_02It's our dream. I mean we have our workers on our property, but I would like to have a job where I just play with horses all day.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, I mean, it has its challenges at times, but you know, it's like it's pretty I'm pretty lucky to be able to do what I do, and I definitely have a passion for it. And you know, that it's that whole thing they say, you know, if you work or if you do what you love, you don't work a day in your life. And yeah, I know. I mean definitely it's not all bunny rabbits and rainbows, you know.
SPEAKER_02No, it's all no, no, sometimes it's rain and bunny poop.
SPEAKER_01So exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh, what's the biggest misconception people have, do you think, about wild horses?
Biggest Mustang Misconceptions
SPEAKER_05I think that for the most part, people think that they're all crazy and untrainable and that they're really difficult. And I try to just like uh Mustangs are not a breed. Um, mustangs are just grade horses that are feral. Um, it actually comes from the Spanish word mustanio, which means you know, feral or wild horse. But I like will compare it to like different breeds like Arabians and quarter horses and thoroughbreds, and there's like some exceptional ones, and there's some you know, really good-minded ones, and there's some really dinks. Um, and I think that I think that you know that's kind of the Mustang thing, too. There's some horses that are really easy to train and and and willing and good-minded, and then there's others that are very, very, very, very difficult. So I think the biggest misconception is that that that they're all the same and they're not, and even even like you look at quarter horses, I mean, there's so many different types of quarter horses, and they're all unique and different in their own and quirky in their own way. And so I think the biggest thing is just instead of just saying that they're all crazy and untrainable, is that's not the case. Um, yes, some are really crazy and some are really difficult to train, but some of them make exceptional horses.
SPEAKER_03Is there one in particular that sort of changed you that you can think of? Like, was there uh an original Mustang where you just thought, oh my gosh, this completely shifted my perception?
SPEAKER_05It's okay if there wasn't, Matt, but I don't know if you're as far as as far as my training goes, or as far as just my thoughts on them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, your thoughts, training either.
SPEAKER_02Well, and also, too, uh, you know, you have some beautiful Mustangs that you ended up keeping. I love the I don't know his name. I know I'll know it when you say it, but he's a blue blue roan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, his original name is yeah, it's it's very original. It's his name's Blue.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_05So I'm beautiful.
SPEAKER_02He is so beautiful. Matt's a comedian.
The Horse That Changed Him: Blue
SPEAKER_05He is so I will I will share, yeah. I'll have to share with you uh Blue's story. He definitely taught me a lot. So, I mean, I think my first Mustang Maverick, he was a fox hog four-year-old that I adopted from Ridgecrest. I think he probably opened up my eyes, and he was kind of a medium of the road, you know, Mustang, not super difficult, not super easy, just kind of a medium of the road, you know. And I think he kind of opened my eyes to like there, oh, there are, you know, these there's a lot of horses here that need homes and they're very trainable. You just have to invest the time. And and I learned a lot, but you know, quite honestly, I do this, like I said, 365 every day, and I earn a living at it. And I would say, you know, I'm a professional at it, but yet I'm still learning like every day how to be better, how to have better timing, better feel, how to communicate better with the horses, and every single horse that I work with, not even just the horse, but in that particular session will teach me something how to do a little bit better the next time, you know, and just refine my skills as far as a horseman. And and that's the journey that I think we're all on, you know, is trying to do better every day, you know. I mean, I I feel like especially with Mustangs, um, or pretty much any horse, um, the day that you think you've arrived and you get cocky is the day you get humbled, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yes, so true.
Blue’s Turbulent Past And Turnaround
SPEAKER_05So, but as far as the horses, I've learned so much as far as my horsemanship and my abilities to train horses from each horse that I've worked with, and it's in the hundreds and maybe even thousands of Colts that I've started in different clinics and outside horses and doing colt starting clinics. And I mean, I've started, I mean, that's kind of my passion. I love, love, love, love putting first rides on horses and starting them under saddle. And I enjoy gentling too, but my passion is definitely, and you know, and I do, I mean, a couple of mine are pretty broken. I've like the refinement part of it too, but I just love the adrenaline and the um challenge of you know putting that first ride on that Colt and you know, helping to support them through that kind of a lot of times very scary time for them and and the rider. So I'd say every every horse that I've worked with has taught me something. Blue definitely taught me a lot. He his story is I'm not to you know draw it out, but it's a podcast, you're supposed to draw it. Okay, he taught me a lot, he was a really tough horse. His story is basically, and you know, long story short, he was adopted as a seven-year-old out of Altura. So he's not a BLM branded horse, he's a Forest Service horse. Um, um Modoc National Forest does a roundups, and I had actually gone up there. And the crazy thing was, I have a tendency, if you guys probably haven't noticed, I I tend to like Rones. Yeah, and um, and so I went up there to do a training with the Forest Service. They had hired me to come in because they were just starting their program and and they needed a little bit of help, you know, getting things set up as far as the flow of horses, and so they hired me to come in and do a clinic and work with their staff for a few days. And I saw him there, and you know, of course, he's this big, beautiful blue roan, and of course, you know, he was already adopted out, somebody had was gonna get him in Florida, so that was crazy. I saw that horse, and then it actually two and a half years later, so what happened was he got adopted out, went to Florida. A lady that had adopted him wasn't even really a horse person much, uh, let alone a wild horse person. So she sent him immediately into training. He was in training for a couple years, and uh he ended up injuring that trainer pretty bad. So then the lady ended up selling him to another lady who purchased him, and then he went to about three different trainers. Um, I think he broke the one lady's arm.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh!
SPEAKER_05He kicked he kicked the other trainer and broke his femur. So then they ended up sending him to a sanctuary, or no, so then yeah, and then he got kicked out of the sanctuary, and then the vet that was working at the sanctuary said, Well, I'll take him on and send him to another trainer. Well, that trainer had him for like six months, and then she was gonna euthanize him because she didn't know what what to do with this horse, because basically they put him in the sanctuary and he beat up all the other horses. And anyway, he's just a very he's a very, very, very tough, dominant horse, like that horse, which is kind of essentially my flavor. Um, and so um he's the type of horse that I could be doing a colt starting clinic, and there'd be a colt bucking around the round pen and you know, kick him square in the chest, and he just takes it like a man and can and keeps going. You know, he's just on he's like the toughest horse I've ever. We we came face to face with a grizzly bear up here while shed hunting, and and he didn't even bat an eye, he just stared the grizz down. The grizz just walked. Yeah, it's just yeah, he's just that kind of horse. Wow, he's a dominant one in the herd. So, anyway, the vet that that ended up getting him, she had him for a while in training, and and then she had a client who follows me on social media. Okay, she didn't she didn't know what to do with this horse, and so basically they said, We'll call this guy, and and I don't know why I decided to take him on, but I did.
SPEAKER_02Because he's a blue room, and he's beautiful, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And he's well, I remember seeing him. See, I mean, there was only a few of them, and I remember seeing him when I was there. I was like, Wow, that's a cool horse. And I'm like, Well, here's an opportunity. And I'm kind of a sucker, you know, because I'm like, she kind of laid the guilt trip on me. Well, he gets euthanized or he gets a chance with you.
SPEAKER_03Oh man, you have to do that.
Dominance, Leadership, And Fairness
SPEAKER_05So I took him on. Yeah, we had to figure out how to ship them all the way out, and I didn't want to pay a bunch of money, and she'd already have a bunch of money in. So they ended up figuring out they raised the funds or something, and they got him out to me because he was in North Carolina at that point. Yeah, and so they got him out to me, and it's been a journey. And I wouldn't say that he's gentle, but he's for me, he's decently broke. I can do just about anything on it. He's a great saddle horse, I can ride him, I can pack him. You know, he just every day is always a little bit of a test. I mean, he's broke, he's really broke. You can always train the horse, but you can never change who the horse is, you know. With him, he taught me a lot of I have to, you know, it's that delicate balance of you know obtaining leadership, these horses, and they don't necessarily when they're the dominant horse, they don't want a leader, they're used to being their own boss, and so it was interesting. He taught me a lot, and um, and but he's a great horse, and he's an amazing horse. And I mean, we just a couple days ago we just got back and we were packing elk out, and you know, he can pack elk, or he could you can ride him, you can pack him, you can do I can start colts on him, you can do anything on him, you know. How old is he now? Um, let's see here. He was seven when he was gathered, he's probably 13 now. I had him, he was nine when I got him. Okay, so I've had him four years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, wow, man.
SPEAKER_05Three, three, three and a half, three and a half years.
SPEAKER_03So thank you so much for sharing that. I know that is that's what this is about.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, most of the horses that I actually own that I have that are my personal saddle horses are kind of like like Cody, he's the other bay round that I have. Okay, like he he went into the tip program, and he was another dominant horse as a six-year-old, and and he was beating everybody up, and they were gonna bring him back to the facility. And so, yeah, it's just like I I tend to like gravitate towards the really because for what I do with work, I can't have like I have an amazing little mare that's like super, super sweet and very you know, and I can work Colts off of her and I can do everything off of her, and she'll do it, but she's very timid about it, you know what I mean? Like, she's just not cut of the same, like she's very willing. And my son, you know, ever since he was five years old, and my kids, you know, they ride her everywhere, and you know, they she does Jim Canna and she'll do barrels, and like he just sits up here and his legs are coming halfway down her barrel, and like she just you know, and people go, Oh, because she's so good and she's so willing. So that's you know, she and I'm like, you know, Shough, if you take care of her tuck, um, then that's your job. And so I don't really do that with her. I need more of the the the tough horses, the really, really, you know, and she was, you know, a lot more flighty and easier to train in the sense that you know, she didn't she she was just like you showed her what you wanted. She's like, Yes, sir, yes, sir. You know, whereas the other type of horses that I tend to gravitate are they more that higher up in the pecking. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03Well, you all have that in common that I gravitate towards those dominant gildings. I'm a I'm a huge gilding, dominant gilding fan. So I completely understand.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, you you would if you ever end up in Montana, you can come check out mine because they're coming. Yeah, that that's that that tends to be my flavor.
SPEAKER_03Aww. I have another question. What's the foundation that you would want for every young horse to have before like moving on to more advanced work? Like, what do you think that they should have instilled before you ask them for more? Is there like a like a basic sort of menu that you look for?
Foundations: Pressure, Release, Timing
Trust Versus Respect: Finding Balance
SPEAKER_05Like the foundation of, I mean, I start everything at the very beginning, whether it's broke or not or never been touched in a round crowd. And I basically start by working with that horse through pressure and release, applying pressure. And what I mean by pressure in that sense is like pushing on them and then releasing the pressures, backing the pressure off as far as body language. Horses communicate through body language, not like you and I do through vocally. If they're separated from each other, they will whinny. But when they're within their hierarchy of their herd, they all communicate through whoever moves whoever's feet asserts their dominance within that pecking order of the herd. And I've really tried to understand that more because that's the communication that horses are really used to. And so when I can start to do that, it's pretty amazing how you can start to work with a wild horse that's never been touched or any horse at that. You just basically have to, you know, read them, and you know, it's fairly easy concept of when they do the right thing, you release or take the pressure away, and when you do the wrong thing, you apply. Apply the pressure, but then you have to introduce timing and feel with all that. And then timing the timing has to be impeccable. If you're a little bit late, then you're not necessarily communicating that horse did the right or wrong thing. And so that is the challenging part is you know, being spot on with your timing, and then how much pressure do I apply? How much, how long of a release do I give? That's something that I've just learned over the years with working with multiple different types of horses and reading the situation that you know has started to come a little easier. The biggest thing with any horse, I don't care if it's a mustang, a warm blood, a mule, any of them, or I should say equine, is that in my experience, like you have to at some point obtain leadership with that horse. And I do clinics all over, and nine times out of ten, the horses that are pushy, they don't necessarily respect, you know, you got two components, you got trust and you got respect. And I always try to get that 50-50. I want the horse to trust me, but then I also want him to respect me. If I have too much respect and not enough trust, then I'm a dictator, not a leader. If I have too much trust and not enough respect, then it's more of a friendship and he can do things on his terms. And I found in the training aspect, keeping the horse and myself safe, you really got to get, in my experience, that leadership role where those horses do look to you as that leader because they actually thrive and crave confident leadership. When we start to kind of question things, and that's been happened in my own career, would start to question things am I doing the right thing? Then they already know it. They they they pick up on that. Horses have an unbelievable sense of energy. They sit not to get all man bun and cable uh kale on you guys, you know, but you know, but but I mean the the cowboy stuff is fun too, right? But but there's a lot to just having energy, you know, there's a lot to it, right? And a lot of times I'll work Colts and I'll walk in the round pen and I'll be struggling with something in my life, whether it's personal or business or bills or whatever's on my mind. And if I don't check that at the round pen gate, I'm like, what is going on with everybody? You guys are all being knuckleheads today. No, the issue is with me because I'm I'm not 100% present and I'm not you know focused, and and that that that that is a big difference, and so so basically back to your question. Sorry, I'm rambling on, but you're fine, but the yeah, the foundation is I want to obtain leadership because they understand that with horses are social animals, they're part of a herd. If given in the opportunity, they always want to be in a herd, they're a social animal, and within that herd, there's a hierarchy, and nobody's even, right? You got the leader, and then it works its way down as far as the pecking order. They're given a desire to always want to work to the top. So a lot of times when people say, Well, my horse is defiant, and he's kind of a jerk, and well, he's been bred and designed to work his way to the top of the food chain. If he's on the top, then he gets breeding rights and he gets the best food, and he it's it's about it's back to self-preservation and survival.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, wow.
SPEAKER_05So, you know, I've had to learn, you know, a lot of times when a cult's being really defiant and he doesn't want me to move his feet or he's really bracing against me, whether I'm riding or on the ground, doesn't matter. And he's really sassy and he's fighting me a lot. Well, I need to really pick apart, okay, am I communicating to him submissive behavior within that language? Then he's going, Well, you're saying that you're going to be submissive, and now I can be dominant, and now you're switching gears, right? It's not really consistent, right? So he's like, So he wants to push back more. And so many times, like in my clinic, I'm like, it's very simple. If you're standing there while we're while I'm lecturing, and you guys are standing there with your horses, and your horses are pushing into you and moving your feet, you're allowing them to be dominant over you. So then when we start to do the exercise and you try to start to move their feet, they're getting a little sassy. Yeah. Well, that's the problem right there. We just have to stay really consistent, be that assertive but gentle approach, and be very fair. And you know, it's like I said earlier, it's not all bunny rabbits and rainbows. There's absolutely times where I got to get after the horses, especially if they're a more dominant horse. I mean, Blue and I and Cody and I have been in some pretty, pretty good fights, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And the amount of pressure that it took to get them to finally go, okay, but you have to be very fair about it because especially with Mustangs, they're like mules too. They'll hold a grudge. They won't just forgive it like a like a domesticated horse, like a quarter horse, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But you know, they hold a grudge and they start to get really um sour and they start to get like resentful, and that's not a way to obtain leadership. So you gotta have it's just a really difficult balance to obtain to get that leadership. But back to that leadership, if you can be that alpha and and you can convince them that and they can accept the fact that you are their leader, it's pretty amazing what you can get them to do.
Mustangs, Mules, And Self‑Preservation
SPEAKER_03Listening to you, you are blowing my mind. Like I am so excited we are interviewing you. Uh you and I just are very similar in our theory, and I don't trust anyone with my horses. I would 100% trust you with my horse.
SPEAKER_05Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And you know, it's yeah, and I'm like I said, it's a journey, you know. I'm I'm constantly learning, but I've learned so much. People often ask me, you know, who did who did I study under? I'm I'm kind of believe it or not, I'm a lot of people are shocked by this, but I'm I'm an introvert, you know. I've never really been people are the ones that stress me out, not the horses. But um, and I've had to really learn to to be able to talk to people and be able to do clinics, and forcing myself to do clinics has really helped and all that, but and I'm on a journey with that. But the the the thing is, is that with with horses, you you really have to just go back to that core foundation thing is they are a herd animal, and being that confident leader is really once at first they might fight it, but then they finally accept it, and it's it's pretty remarkable.
SPEAKER_03So I I actually have an odd question for you, and it comes from my observation of wild versus domestic horses. I feel like you and I really do match up in theory, and so if you don't mind answering this odd question, but have you ever found that wild horses speak wild horse language or just speak horse language in general better than domestic horses? Like they understand that pressure on, pressure off. Like you were saying that there was a resentment, like the mustang.
Connection Over Repetition
SPEAKER_05Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, I think that horses are horses. I think that all horses are similar, but one thing that I've noticed over the years of doing so many different types of mustangs, and then I mean I've trained countless domestics as well. Yeah, um, is that Mustangs and mules, actually, for that reason, they have a lot higher and some domestics, so I can't completely rule them out, but I would say as a majority, is they have a higher self-preservation. Okay. And so that really makes them in tune because they have to survive. So, like you think about like most of these like metallic cat quarter horses and stuff, like they're they're bred specifically on certain characteristics, right? So they, you know, they're very cowie and you know, they're very athletic and the way they're built, and and they're very feely, and they're you know, and they're and they they carry themselves and that they're selectively bred, right? Yep, um, for that particular job, or like you look at like a warm blood, like they're selectively bred, you know, to to to compete in dressage and and and and and jump and and all these things, right? And so Mustangs, nobody's really selectively bred them, but over the years of them being here, as well, they're an invasive species, essentially, but over the years of being here, they've had to selectively breed, basically, because it's it's basically like the tough ones had to they had to survive, right? So it's survival of the fittest. So they had to have good feet, they had to, you know, uh be very like their head on a swivel. So I feel like a Mustang, back to your question, is like a little more like on point as far as like they just have that sense of like they're a little bit more sensitive, I guess I would say what you're doing. Whereas I would say a lot of the you know, like say a giraffe horse or something is a little more dull, if that makes sense. You know, a lot of times I've worked with Mustangs and they're very similar to like an Arabian, you know, they're very, very in tune, and you know, a lot of people, you know, a lot of trainers I should say that are primarily quarter horse trainers, they say, Well, Arabs are nuts and they're stupid and you can't train them, and mules are nuts, right? And I really don't like the fact it's just a reality that the horse industry is very clicky, like you have your people, you have your gated horse people, you have your Mustang people. Now, I mean, when I first started this, like nobody liked Mustangs. I feel like now it's kind of like this you you're almost cool because you have Mustangs.
SPEAKER_02It's like it's definitely like the lifetime channel romantic version.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like it's definitely evolved. And I know there's a couple movies, I know there's a couple movies, and the extreme Mustang makeover is really a contributed to that, you know, which is all great things, right? That's all great. I'm not saying what I'm back to what I was saying is like it's very clicky. And I mean, basically, I love all horses. Like when I do clinics, like there's Mustangs there, there's gated horses there, there's mules there. I I don't care, it's about communicating with that particular horse and trying to obtain that you know that connection with that horse so that you can that horse can be an extension of you, whether you're on the ground or whether you're at liberty on the ground or even riding, you know, and that's you know, it's a dance. And and you guys are you guys are one you one unit working together. So, but again, we're the leader because the second that they start to become their own leader, I've learned the hard way, then they're way more prone instead of checking in with you when they get put in a situation because we've got to remember these are whether it's domestic or wild, these are prey animals. They're going to be upset about something at some point. It's not about if it happens, it's when it happens. And and and so when that horse gets put in a situation that makes it uncomfortable, I want it to check in with me. Hey, what do we do, boss, rather than go into self-preservation? Because that's a lot of times a bad spot for me and for the horse as well. And a lot of times you see wrecks that happen, and that's what usually in most cases has happened.
SPEAKER_02What is one mistake that you see people make when they uh, you know, start a young horse for the first time, or even get a new horse? Because I know a lot of people think, oh, I'm gonna go buy this horse and it's doing really well and it looks all nice and calm, and then they get it home and now it's a basket case and they don't realize you know that horse needs to get to know you.
Preparing Horses For Backcountry
SPEAKER_05I think the biggest thing with any horse, wild or domestic, is I think that people are just kind of not present. And and those little things add up to the big wreck. And what I mean by that is like I tend to be very I I'm kind of my personality is kind of type A, but I mean the little things I I love the the attention to detail as far as behavior, and rather than just ignore that the horse is doing a certain thing or brush it off or get really upset about it, I gotta try to figure out the chess match of why and get to the core of why that horse is acting. Is it behavioral? Is it you know, because I'm communicating in a wrong way that he's interpreting, like there's there's some form of communication breach. And like you said, when people buy a new horse, you know, that horse may be a little bit different, or the the person that had it before, the owner that had it might communicate a little bit different. So, you know, it's all everything's all on its head and different. So that horse starts to kind of melt down. So I think that being present and being aware of every little thing is a huge asset in any kind of training, personally, because then you're you're figuring out these little things that then you know the big vices in horse behavior, like I do these problem-solving clinics, and people bring me their horse, and it's like, well, my horse bucks under saddle. Well, that's the vice, but that wasn't it was started by a balance issue. We didn't have trust and respect, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, right.
SPEAKER_05And we got to go back to that foundation symptom versus cause. Exactly, exactly. And another thing that I try to do, and I've really figured out over the years, is a lot I'm a little bit different than a lot of trainers, is a lot of trainers are are really big on repetition. And you know, just repetition, repetition, repetition. And what I've found is then the problem, especially when you have a high self-preservation horse like a mule or a Mustang or any horse at that. If you do that repetition, repetition, repetition, if then all of a sudden that changes, there's a meltdown, right? I would much rather build a connection with that horse where they're constantly checking in and stay very consistent, but like I have to force myself even because we get in a routine, right? We get our horses out and we do this and we do this and we get in this routine, right? And if that routine changes, they kind of have a meltdown, right? Yeah, if we go to a different place, it's a different barn, it's a different arena. Like it shouldn't matter. Like, I mean, and I worked for a few years for a raining trainer, and I I all I did was start Colts for him, the two-year-olds, and and I'm not trying to talk bad on you know that discipline or anything. Basically, it's just repetition, repetition, repetition. Well, you take that what they would consider a finished horse that can do a perfect raining pattern, and you take him up in the mountains and you have a sage hand blow out from underneath his legs and tall grass, like he's gonna lose it, like he's not gonna be able to handle it. So, like what I try to do with my colts that I'm starting for, you know, the outside horses that I bring in to start for people, and then my own horses is just constantly doing different things and changing it up, and they don't know from one day to the next what I'm gonna do or what we're gonna do that day. That way, it keeps them connected, they stay really engaged because then they'll start to, if they get into the repetition, they'll start to anticipate and then they just start going through the motions. And then I've done seen it at Clinton. Well, he's doing it before I really actually asked him to back up. Well, yeah, that's a that's a slippery slope because you're getting ready to back him up and he's knowing you are because of the repetition, but then he's doing it on his own before he actually is responding to your cue. That breaks the connection of that leadership. He's doing it then on his own. He's not actually responding to you actually cueing him.
SPEAKER_03And that's actually a horse being really smart, right? He's trying to figure it out. Oh, yeah.
Ponying Skills And Safe Rigging
SPEAKER_05And why are they why do horses have again back to that thing of like, why do horses have this deep-rooted defiance? Because they really do. Well, what I've figured out over the years, and I could be wrong, but I don't think it's a pride thing. Like you and I, like, I don't want to be told what to do because I think there's pride involved. They don't want to be told what to do because if they do, that puts them down a notch in the pecking order, and then they don't get that best feed, they don't get that right. So, and they have a natural desire to want to work their way up. So that defiance, oh, he's being a jerk, he's he's just being defiant. He's just trying to survive. If you think about it kind of more that way, it's a little easier. But we tend to take it personally like, oh, he doesn't want to listen to me, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's so funny. She calls her, she has this beautiful young Andalusian and she calls him a dick all the time. And sometimes he is, but he's not. He's not. I didn't say it. I just say it isn't.
SPEAKER_03Someone actually commented, like, don't wonder where's a dick? And I'm like, he doesn't speak English. So funny. Um, I actually I have this awesome brother-in-law, and he's been wanting me to train a Mustang for him as a pack animal, which I totally get the way that you were like, Oh, I'm gonna do this because I need a pack animal. He's been asking me to train one for a few years. Um, I haven't done it yet, but what skills would you consider essential before someone actually heads into the backcountry? Because Sandy and I, we do a lot of trail riding. I love how you said you're just gonna throw different stuff at them all the time. Is there like a certain like criteria that you think that we should hit before someone heads into the backcountry? Because I've never actually packed.
SPEAKER_05Pony horse or saddle horse.
SPEAKER_03Oh, pony horse.
SPEAKER_05Okay, so first of all, your saddle horse, I guess I should talk. I mean, your saddle horse has to be very broke.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
How Clinics, Confidence, And Presence Evolve
SPEAKER_05Um, because and you know, people say, Well, I'm just a I I get this often. I'm just a trail rider, I don't need to be able to side pass and be punches anymore. Well, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not I'm not saying you're not gonna get it. But I do get I do get that, I do that get that a lot. Like people say that all the time. Yeah, no, I hear that horse needs to be able to move every part of its body, and if something starts to go sideways, you got to have control of that horse to kind of you know. So that horse needs to be pretty darn broke, right? Um, and we need to work a lot on ponying off of that horse. Um, I use a crouper on all my saddle horses. That's a huge thing to avoid a lot of wrecks because if that lead rope gets underneath that tail, it can be sometimes an absolute wreck. And you know, that's one thing that is huge that you know you can avoid. And so I use a crooper a lot, not to necessarily like because you need it, but just because you want the sensation, yeah, just to more desensitize the horses to to get used to that. As far as the the pack animal, a lot of desensitizing to ropes. You know, I need to pick up all their feet with a rope. Um, I rope all of my horses' feet, it makes a big difference. And then obviously, you know, the britching behind, you know, a lot of just desensitizing for that animal. And then the animal that you're ponying, you know, in a round pin, like I do actually ponying workshops too, is making sure that they understand they can't just run past the saddle horse and and and moving moving that pony animal around, like backing them up from your saddle horse, like moving their hindquarters from your saddle horse, like pushing them around with the saddle horse so that they don't start to get pushy, or in the event that they get scared and spook, they don't blast and run through your saddle horse. So those are the big things that I feel like just people get this great romantic idea of I'm just gonna get my horses and we're gonna go packing in the mountains. Well, again, back to the you know, the little details, we got to get those kind of worked out, you know. And for example, like with Colts, like I'll pony them with no saddle on the trail behind my confident horse, and I'll do that quite a bit, right? Yeah, and we'll go out there with no saddle on, just keep hanging out, going down the trail, right? And then we'll introduce the pack saddle or a bareback pad or whatever, breaking down the steps, and then we'll do you know a few sessions of that, and we'll go through some some some brush, you know, where it's rubbing on the saddle and it's doing all that, and then we'll start doing some small loads and having those loads very balanced and very tied down, very secure, so they don't you know get spooked and then blow up and the load comes off and they go, Oh, that worked, and then they you know, then we then they learn that oh, they just need to blow up if they get upset and they're gonna get the load off. So just breaking down and preparing them as best you can is really what it it all comes down to.
SPEAKER_02And now one of the things always impressed me with your videos is your pony horse is Behind your saddle horse, and sometimes it doesn't look like you're holding a rope. Is it just the angle of the camera, or do you have another way that you tie all your horses together?
SPEAKER_05Uh so no, I'm holding the lead rope of the pony horse right behind, and then if I'm leading a string, then I will then have a breakaway. So then you obviously get him halted broken, and you have okay. In case it's case something, so there's a breakaway, there's a small, like it's cotton like twine, kind of like baleing twine thickness, and it it's basically what I tie the next horse in line to.
SPEAKER_02What are you tying him to? The the little ring on the back of the saddle?
SPEAKER_05No, so basically the twine that's the breakaway runs between, depending on the pack saddle, runs between either the D's on a decker pack saddle or the crosses on a sawbuck pack saddle, and it runs through and then goes down and fastens to the front cinch. So if that was to pull, it's not going to shift the saddle, it's pulling directly on the tree of the saddle versus a piece of britching that's just on the back. It runs through the ring of the britching, but it just uses that ring to keep it from falling down. It's then you would just be pulling on the leather instead of on the actual tree of the saddle.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Okay, good. We actually did an episode on ponying. Uh, we pony our horses a lot, and we were helping a friend of ours pony. I always refer to you in every episode. I'm like, I watched this guy messing mad, and I don't know how he does it. And I was always um curious. So thank you for letting us know that.
SPEAKER_05So, yeah, a lot of a lot of my videos are, you know, very, you know, but there's a lot, a lot that goes into that. Yeah, it's it doesn't just people have the misconception that I get these wild horses and then the next day I'm out there riding in the mountains.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean I can see why, because it's a video and we're just seeing it glimpsed into your life.
SPEAKER_05We're not right seeing the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02So no.
SPEAKER_05Right. But there's a lot of work in the controlled round pen. And what I'll even do is like I'll even like if it's pony in him, I'll pony him in the round crowd, then I'll pony him in the arena, then I'll take him in the pasture, so it's still somewhat contained, so you don't have a you know a wreck or something.
SPEAKER_03I feel like talking to you that Sandy and I are on the right track, girl. Yeah, I didn't check. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, because I want to go back to the show. So I better be on the right track for watching.
SPEAKER_03Um thank you so much for this interview. It has been fantastic for us. I'm wondering like, how has been working so closely with Mustangs and and all the other horses and the mules, like, how has that shaped who you are outside of the arena as a human?
Legacy: From “Worthless” To Invaluable
SPEAKER_05Oh man, I think it's taught me so much. And I quite honestly I can't I kind of think like I am like like I am like a feral animal, you know. It's definitely taught me a lot and it's helped me to work on my patience. Horses have a great way of humbling us and really looking at it and taking accountability, like, okay, here's the deal. I messed up, right? Because like people that are afraid, like I have that oftentimes. Well, I don't want to mess my horse up. You know, if you have the attitude that you going into it that you're afraid to do something, we I do this for a living and I make mistakes all the time. Yeah, you know, we don't we don't continue to make those mistakes. We learn from them, we try to do better and we try to change things for the next time. But the idea is, you know, we we we we have to grow and you have to put yourself out there. And I've learned that, you know, in my own, you know, life with everything else is if I don't try it, I'll never be able to do it. My biggest thing I try to tell people is you know, work with as many people as you can. There's not, you know, my way of training a horse is effective and it works for me, but it's not the only way to do it. Sure, you know, there's a number of different ways to go about it, and you know, you just got to be confident in what you do because when you're confident about what you do, the horses definitely uh know it.
SPEAKER_02It's like raising children.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like what I've noticed is like with horses, I mean, I'm a lot better with horses than I am people, but with horses, with horses, you know, if you take that same type of confidence, you know, into the real world, you know what I don't care what it is, but if you, you know, and there's a fine line between cockiness and confidence, right? Yeah, um, and and so like, but if you go into a job interview, right? Or or you go on a date, like if you carry yourself with confidence, you're automatically gonna be a little bit more appealing. And so that that's one thing that the Mustangs have taught me is that you know, you just gotta really, and I'm very confident. I can step in a round pen and people are, you know, but you put me in front of a bunch of people and I fall apart. My very first, my very first clinic. I actually I actually I puked twice. I was gonna say you guys didn't throw up. I was so nervous.
SPEAKER_02Well, I've been to one of your clinics, that's how I met you was through Darlene Harmon. We came to one of yeah, we came to one of your packing clinics, and she brought a couple of her horses. Yeah. So I've watched your clinic and it didn't look like you were nervous or about to throw up at all.
SPEAKER_05Well, you gotta what is that word? What is that? You gotta fake it till you make it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And I've been trying to get back to one of your clinics. I was part of a writing group and they just didn't want to commit, and I just felt so bad because I kept reaching out to you and you kept giving me all this information, and they just would never commit. And I'm I'm really hoping I I do follow you, so I do see your upcoming clinics that you do, and I'm hoping maybe you'll have one around here.
SPEAKER_05I don't have anything on the books right now, but yeah, I I try to do my best as far as to let our post on my Facebook of where I'm going and what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I see them. I think I'm one of your top.
SPEAKER_05I mean I've traveled all over, I've gone all the way to New York, I've been to Alaska, been yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, it's crazy. And uh, you know, it's it's just it's pretty humbling. I just can go around sharing my passion and and people actually like it.
SPEAKER_02So I want to be respectful of your time. We have one last question that we would like to ask you, and that is what do you hope your legacy will be as you reach the end of your career?
SPEAKER_03What or even like as you sunset into your life? I know this is a big question, but what is your legacy that you want to have left behind when there is nothing left?
SPEAKER_04Oh my goodness, what I that's a great question. Um what do I want my legacy to be?
SPEAKER_05I think I think the biggest thing is just uh taking these horses that are considered you know worthless or untrainable or you know, and if and just kind of showing people that if you do, you know, and it's not easy. It it it definitely, you know, there's so many times like with blue, I can't tell you how many times I wanted to beat my head against the wall and say, I just want to give up, you know. Um but you know, to show I guess I'm just addicted to the challenge or something, you know, but it's so rewarding too to know that you know this horse is trainable, and I I I I I had a small difference in making him, you know, because quite honestly, I've had people offer me a good amount of money for blue after they, you know, I've oh I bet you know and and and and and so it's kind of rewarding to know that this horse was considered, you know, a menace and and a liability, and now he's an asset. And that's that's something, but just to you know, with the Mustangs, or not even Mustangs, problem horses, kill pin horses, all of it, you know, like there's value there. The biggest thing I think that you know people just don't want to put the time in and or don't have the knowledge, and uh that's that's another thing. Some so I've got some clients that they want to put the time in that they just don't know exactly, you know, and that's where I kind of step in and help them just basically step by step by step figure it out. You know, let's if we take one step and we gain one inch, you know, every day we're eventually or one percent better every day in a hundred days, we're there, you know.
SPEAKER_02So, but I guess I don't know if I really answered it, but just no, you did absolutely difference in the life of these animals that that people will will see and notice and and maybe have a better perspective on on that world, and you were a part of it.
Closing Thanks And Outro
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because they're amazing animals and they've taught me a lot, and I'm just you know, you know, like majority of the you know, and I will say, like, the amount of time that I put into blue, I could have trained and finished, you know, probably four or five, four or five, yeah, really well-bred, you know, domesticated horses, you know. So when you start thinking about like, and I I struggle with that a lot, like financially, I'd be a lot better. My body, I'm not, you know, I'm not getting any younger. Like, it it definitely has, you know, it's not the smartest thing for me to kind of have these troubled horses and and everything, it'd be a lot easier on me. Yeah, but that's but again, that's just not me. So and you know, there's been times too, you know, like it's pretty nice. Like this over this last couple months, I've had a couple cults come in and they're just really well-bred, domesticated horses, and it's like they're just so easy because I can take the same skills that I have with these really tough ones, and I apply it, and they just like I'm like, Are you sure this horse hasn't been ridden before?
SPEAKER_02She's like, Okay, I think you're selling I think you're selling yourself short. They're not easy, you're that good. Yeah, you know, yeah, I think you need to take the compliment, man.
SPEAKER_03Just take it. Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I appreciate it. But yeah, no, it's it's it's great, but um, and it is nice to have those really easy ones every once in a while. But that's just unfortunately, I've carved out this niche and I've get always used to the problem or the difficult ones, but that's that's what I thrive. That's what I thrive on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I hear that.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you so much again, and we will absolutely stay in touch with you. We're we're actually following you our uh Saddle Talk with Sandy and Kara Facebook page. We're following you, so we will stay on top of all of your adventures.
SPEAKER_05All right, sounds good.
SPEAKER_03All right, well, thank you. Yeah, thank you, and have a good night with your family and this week and everything. Thank you so much, Matt.
SPEAKER_05Thank you so thank you so much for having me. Take care.
SPEAKER_03Okay, bye. Hey, friends, that's the end of today's ride. We hope you enjoyed listening. Don't forget to follow Saddle Talk with Sandy and Cara wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave us a review, share us with a friend, and saddle up with us next time as we ride through more stories, questions, and wild tangents. Till then, friends, keep your boots dusty and your hard hats on. We hope to see you out on the trail.
SPEAKER_00Danny and Mr. Rebels swinging free. Talking about life and love and mystery. From coyotes to coffee, they'll cover it all with a sagebrush blowing and the wild birds call. So cinch up your boots. We're hitting the track, saddle talks on and we're not looking back.