Eden Equips
Welcome to Eden Equips, the podcast that shares real stories and practical tools to help parents, carers, and educators feel equipped for the journey of raising and supporting neurodivergent children and young people.
Eden Equips
Episode 015 with Laura Crowley
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In part two of Rebecca’s conversation with Laura Crowley, they continue exploring the realities of navigating neurodiversity. Laura shares more of her personal journey, highlighting the challenges, emotional impact, and the importance of trusting your instincts along the way.
Together, they reflect on advocating for your child, understanding individual needs, and approaching things with greater awareness and compassion.
www.lauracrowleyconnect.com
Welcome to Aiden Equips, the podcast that shares real stories, practical tools to help parents, carers, educators feel equipped for the journey of raising and supporting neurodivergent children and young people. Whether you're tuning in with a coffee in the car or have a rare quiet moment, I'm so glad you're here. And welcome to part two with Laura. And Laura, again, welcome back to our part two, um, where we're continuing on. And I think it's just so nice to be able to have that space because there's lots to talk about. If you haven't listened to part one, I really encourage you to go and listen to that. A lot of that will kind of link in with a lot of conversation that we're having today. So, our first one we were talking about how it's so important to start with our nervous system and your three C's and the importance of that comfort, communication, connection with the minor C of the C minor of curiosity as well. I absolutely love that. The next big topic, and it is, and listen, I am aware that like a 25-minute podcast is not gonna cover everything on this topic, but one that is huge, and I know big heart for, and lots of knowledge around anxiety and the autistic brain. It's a huge one that for so many individuals and families listening today is a main theme in their story. I love to hear from you evil on this topic, and I think a great place to start is why. Why is that such a huge theme in so many people's lives? Autism anxiety.
SPEAKER_01I think we have to go back again and would talk again about a little bit what we were talking about before. We talk about the amygdala as being part of the brain, it's in the limbic system in the brain, and it's it's that part of the brain that has that fight, flight, freeze, fawn um uh part of the brain. But it we know from neuroscience that it's more reactive in autistic people. We know that. Which a lot of people don't really know. Yes, we know that, and there's some really interesting studies. When I first heard about the amygdala, I went on a year-long deep dive into the amygdala, and there's a really interesting study um of a woman in the States who was born without amygdala, and they were studying to see does she experience emotions in the same way. Same way, and what we know is that the plasticity in the brain, other parts of the brain actually took over emotional development, but what she did have was face blindness, which I thought was fascinating, right? So it's a really interesting part of the brain.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So we know that that's different. What we also know is that the connectivity within the brain is different, and that autistic people's brains work approximately 42% more at all given times, even when we're asleep.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Even when we're asleep.
SPEAKER_0042% more.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So if you're thinking about an autistic brain and you're not living in one, the most important thing I'll say to you is autistic brains are busy places to live.
SPEAKER_00And I love that you started there, Laura, because I think there's such a reframing that has to happen at the minute around this, and it's from moving out of that terrible, like that pathological pathological thing, kind of yes, all of that stuff. And it's also then looking at my brain's thinking, isn't this so important to know? Because of the moving away from like deficits, less than all of that really harmful language. But that's being pushed into society so much that so many people think autistic brain equals less. But what we do, and as you're saying, neuroscience, and we know 40, it's actually more like 42% more, like there's more activity, there's more process, there's more going on in those moments of uh in an autistic individual's brain. And yes, we need to move away from like understanding every brain is different and beautiful, wonderful. But I think that is so important because so many people see an autistic child or young person or an or a or an adult individual, and they think, Oh, I'm gonna have to like everything's going on a lot slower, or it's not processing as much here. So I'm gonna have to change that.
SPEAKER_01I I often uh talk about the the difference in the processing as kind of like a funnel and a pipe. Okay. So in holistic brains, they have this beautiful funnel that funnels out all the things they don't need to know and they don't need to hear and they don't need to pay attention to. Okay. I feel like I just have a pipe where everything just gets absolutely dunced in at the same time. And then my brain has to pick apart what I need, what I don't need. Um, so imagine the busyness. Yeah, imagine the uh activity in the media being much more sensitive, yeah, right. And then imagine a world that's more uh sensory rich than ever before. We're living in an incredibly sensory-rich environment. All of those things together lends it to the fact that we are more likely to be anxious, okay? We're also the neuro minority living in a world that was built for the neuro majority. So everything is not catered to us, very little is catered to us. Um, even in environments that are supposed to be like I absolutely hate seeing autism-friendly shopping hours. So a lot of times they're not autism friendly. Like, I don't want to go to such a supermarket at nine o'clock at night. I've switched off from it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to go there a lot time. Yeah. So sometimes even the spaces that are supposed to be friendly for us aren't actually friendly for us. Yeah, yeah. So I think that's where we're starting. Um, that we we're built differently, we experience the world differently. Right. Um, and whenever I talk about anxiety and I talk about that kind of thing, I always say to people that double empathy theory from Milton, where you say two people who um don't share the same neurology, so one person who's autistic, one person who's holistic, they will experience the same environment, but experience it wildly differently. But two truths can coexist. Their experience can be true to them, and my experience can be true to me. But oftentimes what we live in is that an autistic person will say that's too loud, and somebody will say, No, it's not, or um, that smell is awful, and I don't even smell it. Yeah. Um, or you know, God, it's hot in here, or God, it's cold in here, and somebody's going, No, it's not. Two things almost gaslighting. Yeah, it is. Because, but it's two truths coinciding. But because the majority experience one side of that, right, right, and the minority are experiencing, and even within the minority, we'll all experience it differently. Yeah, because our sensory systems will be wired individually. I think that that's another element that we need to think about it as well. Um, and I think being socially different because I have different ways of socializing, different ways of communicating, that breeds a lot of anxiety as well, because my uh initiations are often met with mistrust or and I always I always talk about the ick that I see people getting after about 15-20 minutes where they realize something is different. I get their energy will change or their facial expressions will change. And for years I always thought, well, they didn't like me. Yeah, but now I realised they were picking up that I was autistic and I communicated a little bit differently because I'm very direct. I sometimes share too much without realizing it, or will say things that kind of make people second guess, you know. And I think that all leads to our anxiety as well because we're often met with that ick kind of when people don't know. So that's why I'm often in conversation even with our postman. Like I'll say, I am autistic because I want to get that out of the way early so that when they do pick up the perceived differences, that they'll go, Oh, that's that's what that's that's what she means. Okay, and I don't get the ick phase then. Yeah, um, so I'm uh very loud and proud for that reason. Yeah, great. Because I don't like that feeling. Yeah, absolutely. You still get it when people like I've you know, when you tell people you're autistic, you'll still get that sometimes, unfortunately. Yeah, but the majority of times it it leads to better conversations and more acceptance. So there's so many reasons why there's so many anxiety is a feature for us, and I think before I ever knew I was autistic, my I was a worrier.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Now I come from a long line of worriers. Okay, our family is very good at worrying on my mother's side, right? So I just thought, and I remember I was about 24 when I Googled is worrying hereditary? And they said it is, so I stopped worrying about my worrying. Okay, yeah, yeah. And then I was about 27 when I figured out about anxiety. I was about 30 when I started kind of doing anything out about it. 32 when I took it seriously. Wow. Started doing CBT, it didn't work. Um, nothing worked that they were telling me to do. Um, and that then become becomes a shameful thing because you're like, Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until I was identified as autistic, right, and I could reframe my experience through that autistic lens that my anxiety suddenly made sense. Wow, okay and my mental health has never been better than since I found that out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's amazing, and also so important, like and gets missed, like even as you said in your journey, like how far in that was, and then it was like, oh, okay, yeah, because those are different things. That was a question that leads really well onto that next bit. Of like, that was a question last year that came up, and I got so many life lessons from doing a conference once. And once one was, you know, the panel, you know, hopefully they're keeping this year, do a wee bit better, just a bit of time, but it's hard, isn't it? It's hard to fill that stuff in. But that was one of the questions, and I thought a really interesting question, and one that I'd love to give a wee bit more space to of what's that difference then? So you were talking about anxiety. So you're where worry, all of a sudden here that actually this is this terminology, anxiety that I'm experiencing. You're like, wait, this still doesn't like fit into what I'm feeling and how I'm responding and my nervous system and my amygdala is picking up in situations. So that then leads into that question that came up last year of how do I know the difference as an individual who is like anxious and autistic anxious? Okay. Are they two different things? Yes, okay, okay, so start because a lot of people will say to me, Oh, they're the same thing, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01No, right. No, they're not. Um, I think everything my perspective on on anxiety was changed, it was turned upside down by one paper that I read in 2021. It's a 2017 paper. Yeah, it's cairns K-E-R-N-S, and there's a load of other names after, but I'm gonna say Cairns 8 Al 2017, which find it. Yeah, um, and it and it basically came down to this. It said, right, so it said the physiological experience of anxiety will be the same, pretty much. Okay. Right. So the physiological heart beating fast, tummy swirling, the you know, the dizziness, the fogginess in your head, that'll all be the same. Right. Where it differed really was the triggers, okay, okay, and how it's shown. Okay. All right. So the triggers, we have some similarities in that there can be certain phobias, like things like you know, fear of spiders, fear of snakes, fear of heights, um, which I love. That's a personal one of mine, is I have a huge fear of heights, but I now try that back to my vestibular sense, and that makes much more sense because it's it's that's what's driving my fear of height, is is that my difficulties around the vestibule input. Okay, um, but it'll also be that we have more obscure triggers. So one of my biggest triggers used to be rain at night, not rain during the day, not rain in the car, not rain anything but rain at night. I have since traced it back, but what I've noticed in my clients is that the the triggers can be obscure. Yes, but sometimes there is no trigger, there is a lack of a trigger, and I talk about it as if I wake up in the morning someone and I open my eyes and I am immediately in that SNS space of just complete fight, flight. My heart is pounding. Yeah, I'm immediately reasonable. And I used to journal, I used to um mind map it and try and figure out like what is this coming from? Where is this coming from? There would be nothing. Right. So that's really frustrating, then, right? Because all anxiety methodologies will come at it from find the trigger, change the trigger, change the thoughts, change the anxiety.
SPEAKER_00Understand it, then you can place it. That's what I'm even thinking. And then if you don't have something, hey, surely that expikes anxiety more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So that's one of the differences between just being anxious and anxiety for autistic people. But the other thing is the the way we show it. Okay. So autistic people are more likely to stim more, need more repetitive movement, um, repeat words more or repeat phrases more, um, repeat questions over and over, um, exhibit constant talking, which is something that I do because when I talk, I can't hear my thoughts. So I can I will literally like experience verbal diarrhea if I'm anxious. It just keeps coming because I don't want to hear my thoughts. Um, and then it can also end up with things like trichotelomania, which is hair pulling and uh dermatelomania, which is skin picking, uh headbanging, physical assaults. Um, and so it shows up just shows up differently, more in behavioral terms.
SPEAKER_00And I'm just even thinking stuff you're saying here of um like for our young people, I'm thinking of conversations I've had around that, of it it so especially the talking, like you even being able, and I know so many people listening to this will just have really massively connected to that, talking more so I don't hear my thoughts. And yet, if I'm generalizing emotions, which we do a lot in society, if I have somebody in my setting who is chatting a whole lot and like I'm like, oh, they're engaging because they're talking and they're verbally communicating in this moment, they're not anxious because they can do this. Whereas potentially another individual is shut down anxiety and so I'm now saying that doesn't look like what I think it should look like, therefore it cannot be. But what you're really, really importantly expressing is it shows up differently. So you have to know the individual. If constant talking isn't a norm for them.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah, I know that connection it's back to your connection thing, know the individual. And you're looking at looking for more than the words, you're looking for the body posture, you're looking for, you know, all the the little reminders that this isn't where it should be. So I used to always say that my anxiety was an invitation to hide. It was like I got really good at hiding. So if I was in public and I was anxious, I would mask hide. Okay. Like I've had panic attacks. I mean we were going through um God, good old COVID. We were going through uh a drive-thru Santa during COVID. It sounds so ridiculous. And you're like, oh my gosh, yeah. And I had a panic attack in the car.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01And the kids were having such a lovely time that I smiled through it. I got out and took a photo on the Haybell with Santa behind us, and and we got through the drive-through Santa, and I just said to my husband, You have to take me home. Like, I'm so and he was like, Why? What's going on? And I was like, I feel like I'm dying. I've had such a bad panic attack. And I was like, I didn't see it. So if I'm in public, I mask heavily. It was an invitation to hide. If I'm in private, I hide. I never I don't answer the phone, I don't answer text messages, I just hid away until I was able to put back on the smile. Now it's an invitation to action. Um, and that's I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned that my anxiety, even when and my first physios physiological symptom of anxiety is that I get a tightness here.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01And I've only learned this, like it's taken me the last five years really to properly understand this. My my tightness starts here, goes down to my chest, wraps around my chest, and it I call it elephantitis, like an elephant sitting on my chest. Yeah, you feel like it's yeah, and that's my so when this starts. That's that physiological. I still have access to my thinking brain at that point. Yes. So my my my proper shutdown hasn't happened in my anxiety terms. So I still have to pre-warning. Yeah, it's my invitation to action to action at that point, and that's that's what I teach the kids I work with is that you know, you can't stop anxiety. Yeah, I can't take away your anxiety, yeah. But you can learn to live with your anxiety because it's adaptive and it helps us at sometimes 100%.
SPEAKER_00Um and we talk about this so much that it's not an emotion that you actually necessarily want to get fully rid of because it's really important.
SPEAKER_01And it just really helps have to get rid of your happiness and your excitement and all those other ones because they're the same, all wrapped up in that.
SPEAKER_00And I think that is that thing that then our young people start to think this is a bad thing. I don't want this, I can't have this, this is terrible. There's something now wrong with me because and it's all this big snoop of thoughts, and and yet that thing of actually my anxiety is my call to action. This feeling is a call into action. I must do something.
SPEAKER_01I must do, I must, must, I must do something. Um, and I think as well for kids, it starts with figuring out right, what does anxiety feel like for you? So we start with normalizing. So um, if I see a kid coming into my cabin, the first thing I will do is I will say to them, if I notice that they're looking anxious, right? And I get to know the kids, even some of them, it's a smile, and I'm like, that's not a good smile, that's a forced one. Yeah. So I might say to them, Do you know when I'm having a really bad day? Would you mind if we started with some regulation? Could we do some breath work and maybe some I don't know, would you like a fidget? Because I'm gonna take my fidgets, and they'd be like, Oh, yeah, it's fine. Do you want to do breath work? Like it's brand, like because teenagers, you can't tell a teenager breathe. Just take a deep breath. Yeah, you can't take a dead breath. Why not? But I'll say, I need them. Is that okay? You can choose the music, but I need to breathe. Is that all right? Really good. And what we know about autistic empathy is that we don't show it the same way, but one way we do show it is that if somebody's gone through a hard time, you'll likely give them a time that you were going through the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So if I tell them I'm having a hard time today, I'm really anxious. Do you mind if we regulate? They're more likely to say, I'm actually having a pretty crap day as well. As well, yeah. And we can open a conversation there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's that call to action, it's that figuring out like what do I need? Right, what's gonna help me in this moment, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and understanding that person because then surely that's gonna be like, you know, very different forms of connection regulation for people, like it can look really different for different individuals. So knowing that's really important, yeah, knowing your kid, knowing that young person you're supporting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's massively different. Have a cookie-cutter approach to anxiety management, right? We can't, it has to be different for every child because like anxiety. The nervous system is different, right? Um, so for me, um, anxiety management is one, understanding my symptoms, it's figuring out okay, this has started. I need to go in. So it might be running my wrists under cold water. Yeah. So because that's this thin skin on your wrist. It might be breath work I live by, absolutely live by. Um, it might be right, what can I take off my plate right now so that my stress levels aren't like I'm not thinking about the next 10 things I have to do. Um, but it's also movement, it's getting down on the floor and stretching. It might look like you're doing nothing, but if I can sit in child's pose for like five minutes, it's gonna help my body. If I lie flat on the floor with my feet raised, it's gonna support my nervous system to know that it's supported underneath me and it it's gonna tell my body you're actually safe. We've we've got you.
SPEAKER_02So good.
SPEAKER_01Um, so there's there's lots of um differences.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the approach needs to be so individualized.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, which then you know that's challenging in situations, isn't it? I guess if I'm supporting a lot of young people, but it is that realization it doesn't, and actually then it's that reality of like, look at it for adult to adult, person to person. So if you're looking at anxiety, and obviously then we know from what you're telling us that looks really different for autistic individuals, but within that, everyone's nervous system is completely different. So the way that my body needs to regulate is gonna be massively different to someone else's. And I always use that example of like, you know, if when people like they're like, I need to like color or pla or like draw or like that really, that will not help me because I've never I've never connected to that. I wasn't like a crafty person, growing up, arty person, anything like that. That will often increase my anxiety in a moment because I'm like, you're rubbish at something else. Wow, look at something, you know. That's I then spiral into that. I need to move. I've been like a sport girl, movement girl, I've got to move my body. So, like whether it's a walk or a get out or whatever, but I always use the example of so, for example, one person's regulation mode might spiral and spark someone else's dysregulation, but it's in that importance of and like in vice versa. So it's important of knowing your young people, not oh, here's how we support anxiety, one thing.
SPEAKER_01No, you know, and it has to be individualized, like even that in the programme, the Connect to the Moment program that I have, yes, it gives a lot of tools, but it asks them to rate their break as well and only include in the pack which breaks actually work for body breaks and brain breaks. Um, and then there's an invitation to make their own one as well because it has to be individualized, right? Um I think we're living in a really unpredictable um time, and and as the conference said, it's so noisy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's so
SPEAKER_01I think it's so disabling at the moment to be a um a late identified autistic woman because the narrative is at the moment that that's not um it's not worthy of the official title. I think that's and that and that's really really hurtful. And I haven't spoken publicly on it because I'm actually I'm in a space where I I don't like to comment on things until I've processed it. Process something, yeah. And I still haven't processed it without the emotional reaction that it brings. Right, understand. Um and I I think as well that when we're narrowing down who we see as being worthy of a of an identification, we're gatekeeping the compassion because the what we know about the autistic experience is that it's a deeply internal experience. It's it may look external in some regards in terms of our behaviour or our patterns of behaviour, but it's a deeply internal experience. So when we're talking about narrowing fields and all that, we're we're missing that that internal experience, and we're also not taking any notice of the high-masking, highly anxious autistic individuals.
SPEAKER_00And I think, and thank you for sharing that, Laura, even you saying that of like not quite fully there within this, all of this stuff's very fresh that's been happening. I think for a lot of parents who are raising a very anxious autistic child, the past few months have been incredibly challenging of things being said and shared and devalued. I think so, you know, thank you even just for for sharing that. I think there's lots in there in terms of if I'm a parent, I can hear the importance of what I do to support an understanding. I think it's that understanding piece comes first, isn't it? Yeah of the difference. Put on your goggle connection and think what could that feel like?
SPEAKER_01Right. You know, like I am blessed to be married to a man who is practically horizontal and who himself has said that he just doesn't experience anxiety. And he came home to me one time and he said, I think I was anxious today. And I was like, Oh my god, he's like buzzing about it, yeah. Like he was exhausted. And I was like, Now imagine having that every day, every day, every day living with that when you open your eyes to when you go to sleep. And I think it gave him an insight of how exhausting it is, exhausting, right? Um, but I think that um that level of constant hypervigilance takes its toll on us, yeah, of course. Um, and if you're living with a highly anxious child, you know, sometimes the the most important message to give parents is around the fact that you might think that they have nothing to worry about, but their body tells them different. Their body is not listening to the you know the clarity of thought that you have because they don't have access to this part of their brain, all they have is their reactive brain right now, right?
SPEAKER_00So when parents say it's grand, nothing to be worrying about, it's just the car, it's just school, you're gonna be able to do it. You just want to go in the car.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, their body is saying that's dangerous. Um survival. Yeah, it's survival. I was on a um a panel discussion last year, and I made the point we were talking about EBSA, and I made the point about our kids need to feel schools are safe. Yeah, and I think I triggered somebody on the panel who interrupted me and said, our schools are safe. And she was quite, and I just I need to reframe this because there is more than just physiological safety. Yeah. There, you know, yes, our schools are safe in that there we don't have gun culture and and knife culture in this country. Yeah. But it's the it's more than just that physiological safety, it's the relational safety, it's the sensory safety. Um, it's it's it's that feeling of felt safety.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. And isn't that that famous quote of um safety isn't the absence of threat, it's how your body interprets an environment and responds in a situation. You know, it doesn't, yeah, and I think that's where people do get really triggered because they're like, I am a safe person. And you're like, it's no one's saying otherwise. No one's saying you're not, like, nobody is high ever. It's it's the felt safety. This interpretation here, exactly. I think that's really important is you know, for parents and carers to hear of even though you're like, there's nothing to be worried about.
SPEAKER_01Like, look how much you're yeah, never in the history of calming down has anybody ever calmed down by being told calm down. Here, don't be worried about it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, here, thank you. I'm not worried, I don't have to worry about it. That's great. Tell my mate to laugh. No, it is, it is. If you get into my brain there and just let me know, I think there's so much in this. And like, listen, like, I think our theme at Eating is always gonna be more Laura, so it's gonna be lots of conversations in the future. I need to be able to have to finish us off to bring into land our quick equip game, which you know, ironically nearly is called quick equip because I'm never quick within it. Let's start with one. We'll see how we get on a tool or resource you love. Uh, the battery.
SPEAKER_01Definitely the autistic battery. It's it's one I I check in with my clients every day, where are they at, so I can tell where their session needs to be pitched at, or do we need to energize? Do we need, you know, so it's about understanding, as I said, autistic brains are 42% more active at all times. We can wake up in the morning and be on like 30%. Right. Um, and we have to realize that burnout isn't running out of battery, it's running on bat, it's running on an empty battery for extended periods. I like it. And because we don't feel our internal sense oftentimes because of those interception difficulties and and differences, as I should say, um, then we don't often notice that our battery is depleted.
SPEAKER_00It's empty, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So having that visual for me and that visual check-in every single day for myself has meant that I touch wood, yeah, have not experienced burnout in the last year. Wow. Uh where I was living in burnout for a long time, you know. So so that to me is like the battery.
SPEAKER_00A mindset that helps you.
SPEAKER_01Hmm. Stay curious. Stay curious. Um, you know that that that uh really it was a doctor I think came up with it. When you hear hoof prints think horses, I'm like, think zebras, giraffes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be curious about that. Think everything possible. Yeah. Because when we go to the most logical explanation, it's a unicorn. We're making judgments. Right. So when I have a client in with me, I'll always play like devil's advocate. I'm like, what if it's this? What if it's that? What if it's the other? So stay curious. Stay curious. Because if we don't, if we're not curious, we can't see the possibilities and we can't see different ways of of actually attacking difficulties.
SPEAKER_00I like that. Remain curious. And last bit, one piece of advice that you'd share with others. You shared a lot of advice with us.
SPEAKER_01But if you were like one thing, oh there's a really famous phrase, a really famous thing that I quote a lot when I'm talking. I don't like who said it. It's about B. F. Skinner. Okay. But I do love the phrase, and it says, education is what remains when all that we have learned has been forgotten. Okay. And I always say it because I say, You're not like I don't remember my leaving cert, I don't remember my college exams.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But education changes your brain. Keep listening, yeah, keep learning. You won't remember every single thing, but what'll happen over time is that your brain will just amalgamate everything into a new outlook, and that's what we want. Brilliant. Yeah, really. So it aligns with stay curious. I was gonna say that really works. Yeah, learning to read. Like people will go to the conference tomorrow and they'll have heard a million words by the end of the day. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But they may not remember everything we say, right? But if they can come out with a new outlook, then they'll have learned more than they could ever could have on their own.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that, Laura. And even for my brain and heart, I think that's good to hear for going into tomorrow of and for everything kind of of how we're wanting to help people so much of that. Brilliant, Laura. Thank you so much. Like there's so much good stuff in there. I know this will be uh a podcast that people will turn to again and again. And thank you. Thank you for everything that you do and who you are as well. It really, really means a lot to so many of us. Um, and thank you for listening. I hope it's inspired you. I know it has, and I know it will have of sparks ideas or just a reminder that you're not on your own in this journey. I think that's a huge part of it. Um, we'll add any of those things kind of talked about and like Laura's details and of like your um courses and kind of things that you have around you, you know, anxiety and sleep and stuff like that as well, because they're fantastic um in the bio of this podcast. Thank you everyone for listening, and we'll catch you on our next episode.