Episode 019 with Elaine McCrisken

In this episode of Eden Equips, Rebecca talks with Elaine McCrisken about emotionally based school avoidance (EBSA) and why some children struggle to attend school due to anxiety, overwhelm, and emotional distress.

They discuss practical ways parents and schools can better support children through connection, understanding, and emotional safety.

A helpful and encouraging conversation for parents, teachers, and anyone supporting young people struggling with school attendance.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Eden Equips, the podcast that shares real stories, practical tools to help parents, carers, educators feel equipped in this journey of raising and supporting neurodivergent children and young people. So wherever you are tuning in today, I am so glad you are here. I'm Rebecca, and today we're joined by Elaine, the founder of Strive and I, a business that supports children and young people and their emotional well-being. Elaine and I have crossed paths many times and at various workshops and conferences, and I'm delighted to have you with us here today, Elaine. So you're so welcome, Elaine, haven't we? No, you're so so welcome. It's lovely to be able to sit down. As I said, like our paths have crossed quite a lot, multiple turns together. Um Strive and I, great place to kind of start. What is Strive and I? What's the heart behind it? What do you do? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

So Strive really evolved from nothing, and I'm still working out the business side of my business because I'd never planned to start a business. So for quite a while I worked in the health trust in children's psychology services. Absolutely loved my job, loved the families that I was working with, the children, the team that I was working with. But it was during COVID, I don't like using the C word, but during that time, the world kind of crumbled a little bit. It was quite difficult for not just for parents and families, but for professionals working in um different services. And I had this real passion inside of me that I wanted to offer support to families in a way that I wasn't necessarily able to working in the system because there's so many restrictions and limitations, and you have to offer six sessions, six sessions, and then you have to pass them on to another wait list somewhere else. Yeah, and I just felt that families weren't getting what they needed at that time. So I started Strive initially as a little Facebook page and was just putting up some resources and guidance and strategies about things like emotions, behavior, sleep difficulties, and it really just evolved from there. And it was particularly whenever the schools reopened after that in and out period of time. Whenever they reopened, schools were then contacting me saying, We're seeing what you're doing online for families. What could you offer to us? Because we are also struggling now that the young people are back to school, not just for the children but also for themselves as staff. So Strive really grew, and now what it looks like is offering therapeutic support on a one-to-one basis for families. I do a lot of parent groups, do a lot of staff training in schools, and just a wide range of things. I dip my toe into a lot of different things. But I suppose the key focus is about um supporting children and young people with their emotional well-being is at the core on their journey with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Absolutely. In in your in all of your work, one topic, and this often happens, that you know ends up nearly getting focused on um a lot, and one topic that you end up talking about a lot is emotional-based school avoidance. Um, it's it's a huge topic uh for many families and a really hard one, like a really, really challenging one. Um, I guess what is that? What's emotional school-based avoidance for people who don't know?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

So, how on earth do you give a definition of it? Um, the only way I could describe it, if you were to put a definition to it, it would be where a young person is experiencing emotional distress in some shape or form, and that makes it difficult to attend school. So it can look like lots of different things. Um, you could have one extreme where a young person is maybe in school every single day, but they're like the dock and water, is how I describe it. So they look like they're floating along, they're getting on really well, they seem to have peer friendships and relationships, and they're academically very bright and capable. But under the surface, their little feet are gonna dinger underneath. So schools often miss those young people because it does look, like I said, on the surface that they're coping, so there's not much focus and attention paid to them because there's other chaos going on in the school. It could also be a young person who hasn't been able to get into school for weeks or months, and I have sat in the car outside of the school grounds with a lot of those young people, and it's distressing to watch their distress, never mind for them to be experiencing the distress, as well as the parent who is often sitting there very distressed and overwhelmed. But you've also got the middle ground then of the ones who are getting into school when they feel like they can, but then some days it just feels like a little bit too much. Um, and I talk a lot about the Coke bottle analogy, I whip out my Coke bottle a lot. But if you imagine a young person, if they're represented by a Coke bottle, they could be shaken multiple times throughout the day, and different things could be shaking their bottle, and things that they're not even necessarily aware of that are shaking their bottle. So that could be um what's happening for them internally, but on the surface they may look like that Coke bottle, so no one's really questioning anything, and it's whenever they get home, maybe the lid comes off, and the outward expression of the feeling overwhelmed in school then comes out. And what's difficult with that as well is that it could be a different picture from school as to what the parent is experiencing.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

That's what I was gonna ask, because when you're saying about you know that duck-and-water analogy, so if I'm an educator, even listening to this, and we're saying those kids are often miss missed, how do I not miss that young person then? How do I identify them or support them?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

I think a lot of it comes down to listening and listening to what parents are telling you because it can be very easy to dismiss a parent who's saying, I'm really struggling to get them into school, it's a battle. And what you're saying as a educator is a child coming into school a lot of days who look like they're coping really well. So your natural instinct might be to say, But they're fine whenever they're here, and that's one of the worst things you can say to a parent, um, because they're experiencing that distress in the morning, and then parents are starting to question themselves and they're judging themselves as well, as well as feeling that others are judging them.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

So back to that thing of hopefully then like being able to encourage people of like listening to parents and carers, and you know that they're the experts, and we said that many times on this podcast before that you're the expert of your own young person, and for educators to then just listen, and it's not even I guess having to like jump into all of those things, but also just be like, Oh, like that's really interesting. Like, we're not seeing a lot of that in school, but it's definitely something for me to be aware of because obviously that's going to be distressing, so potentially there's like masking or like high-level shutdown and freeze behaviors. Um, and those are kids that are really difficult to spot in a in a school setting, like I, you know, even reflecting on my school career, there was always it's easier to spot the kids who are struggling here throwing the chairs or swearing at you because you're physically saying that they're not okay. Whereas a young person who's like silent, like I remember when I was doing a lot of training around like all the neuroscience therapeutic stuff, and I was like teaching as well. And I remember sitting there and I'm thinking about my class and the session, and I was like, Oh my goodness, and I realized that there was one kid who I was like, I've really been neglecting them because they're inverticomas easy, they're pretty chilled in comparison. But pretty chilled also meant that some days I'd go home and be like, Were they in today? And like my class was small, I was in a specialist setting, but I like they were so quiet and often got missed because and I started doing therapeutic work with them because I was like, This is so curious to me, I'm actually gonna flag this now, and like through that work we were doing, and so much stuff came out, and I was literally like, Oh my goodness, you've been in full freeze mode, like literally, yeah, you've actually not been okay, but you're like silence sometimes. We're like, Oh well, they're getting on.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Just let the silence be. Yeah. So there's three words as you're talking there that are coming up in my mind. So there's validation, okay, connection, and safety, and there are three themes that come up a lot, not just in training, but directly with working with young people. So if you think about validation, these parents and young people need validated with their big feelings because they're often being dismissed for that reason because they're presenting differently in school. But if we validate their experience at home, whether you agree with it or not, that can be really, really powerful for families to feel like they're listened to and that they're um being believed, I suppose. Um, there's also connections. So connection is crucial to a lot of the work that I do in different realms, yeah. But connection is what leads to safety, I suppose, with a feeling of safety. So so many of the young people that I work with and the parents as well, they feel like they're not necessarily connected in a true way to someone in school that feels like a safe person. And often if I'm doing work, especially in a primary school environment, and I'm working with more and more primary school children on the this topic. But if I'm working with a school, I'll often get them to make a list of all the students in the class and for all the key adults around that class to initial beside the child's name who they feel that connection with, and more often than not, there's going to be a few that actually don't have that true connection, and it'll probably be a lot of these young people who are struggling with school in whatever capacity, but it could also be those young ones who look like they're coping, but they are struggling. Um, and then the third one is that sense of safety, and I talk a lot about that fight-flight freeze response, um, as you said, there to anxiety, and that's how this presents in a lot of young people, and like safety is what is going to lead to them feeling like they can be in the school environment.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

So that safety comes from being believed, being validated, and having those connections lately, and there's even that extra one, isn't there, of the survival, which I found so curious in like research coming out of that fawning response. So, like, that's too many of the young people who are in schools and struggling because they're presenting, you know, like things are okay, they're pleasing, they're people pleasers, they're trying to appease to those around them, so they're not drawing attention to themselves. Um, I connection's such a big one, and I always think, Yeah, well, obviously, you know, like in my head, but I know that's actually a piece that is missed out a lot that connection with young people is is vital. I see some places and settings and schools doing it really, really well. But I think that's something that's like the simplest maybe thing you can explain. If you're like, here's how to support a young person who's struggling to get into school if you don't have a relationship with them. So I've got to go anywhere. No, like, but why would it? You know, and I guess it's putting it back on like an adult setting. If you were really struggling to get to go somewhere, you're really nervous about an event, like about attending somewhere that you've never been, or attending somewhere that you don't really enjoy going, you're probably gonna text your friend and be like, Here are you attending this today? Are you going? Do you want to meet outside? A hundred percent. And you go in together, yeah. Not um, yeah, I'll meet you in when the session started, yeah, and I'm gonna the person from the front will address you when you've like entered the room. So I guess then it is that thing of like connection this, and it can be simple, right? Well, connection.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

And it is just coming down to listening and having those non-judgmental conversations. And I another term that I use a lot is collaboration, which comes alongside all of this as well. And it's not one person's problem. Like schools will often contact me and say, Look, we've got this young person who's not coming to school, like we think it's the parents because whenever they're here, they're fine. Um, but what needs to happen there is of course we've got the validation and the safety, but we need to collaborate and everyone sit down together and come up with ideas in that non-threatening way because that's the only way that change is going to happen. Everyone needs to be involved in supporting these young people.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

And what about to people that are maybe listening or just even like if this kind of goes out and people are listening to it and are like, I know, but no harm, no, no kid likes going to school.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Yeah. I feel it bubbling inside me.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

But it's a response that I know, like lots of families that you've worked with and that I work with will hear constantly. I know, but sure, I didn't like going to school when I was growing up either, and you just have to make them go. I didn't have a choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

So, yes, there's going to be children that don't want to go to school. And mum, don't listen to this if you're watching. But there was days whenever I was going to school, and I might have pulled the occasional sticky because I was 30%. No, I just want to like we do they day today. Yeah. It didn't happen a lot, but it did happen. Um, so like there are gonna be kids that there's days where you don't want to, like, school can be a boring place, and there's lots of challenges that come alongside school. But these young people that I'm working with, and I'm sure that you're also working with, they're distressed and they're coming to me and they're upset, and they're saying to me, I just want to be the same as everybody else, and they're trying every single day. Want to access it, desperately want to access it, and they don't want to feel different because they're getting messages from their classmates saying, Oh, where are you? and then they're not sure how to answer that question, and the cycle just becomes very overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Isn't there a difference between not wanting to and not being able to? Oh, yes, like that's the huge difference, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Of like there's that term school refusal, and it's one that really is a bugbear of mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes I'll be in training delivering a session, and it's one of the first things I do is distinguish what we're talking about here to like truancy and school refusal, and I'll have a little rant in the session about school refusal. We don't use that term, and then about five minutes later, someone will say, Oh, these school refusers, da-da-da. You're like, Oh, did you listen? But yet they're not refusing, they're they're desperately wanting to be there. It's just that the environment, maybe there's unmet need in the environment, and it's just quite overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Let's talk practical. So, you know, because this is a huge topic that we could talk about, and I know so many families here and have been for years in distress around this, and like completely putting it bluntly, are traumatized by the school system and situations that have happened, and that is not all schools, but there are some situations that that happens to you and it isn't okay, and there's a lot of you know, support that needs around that because the family's actually traumatised by the whole system and lack of support. I've also seen schools do it brilliantly and deeply care. Um, so practically, let's think about parent care first. So, if I am a parent or care listening and I'm journeying some of these challenges, so my young person maybe is really struggling to go into school, or we haven't accessed school in a long time. What would be some of your practical strategies, like right off the kind of bat? It's a hard one because you obviously don't know anything about the child. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 14:40

But like that's a really important point. Like there's a context behind every child, and I approach everything that I work with very, very differently. Right. The first thing that I often try and do with young people, obviously, we've got the validation and everything, but I want to try and explore a little bit about what is it about school that feels quite overwhelming, and that's a really like wide question for a young person to have to answer. If I ask that question, I'll usually just be shut down. Like, I don't know, there's nothing, I just can't go. So I'll go into detail and specifically break down their day. So we'll think about specific subjects, we'll think about specific teachers, we'll think about environments that they're in, like the toilets, the corridors, the assembly hall, um, and we'll think about different types of work, like group work or practical activities.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Okay, so it can be some of those key things that then are just massive. Like I remember um an individual, and we were doing some work like this, and they expressed that the classroom is really noisy, and I was like, oh, it is so noisy, isn't it? Like classrooms are noisy, and then I was in that school environment and I started like going in and kind of supporting in, and I was like, I'm overstimulated. I'm a neurotypical adult and I'm really struggling here. And the reason for it was it was a duality year class, so a split class. So a year, for example, it's a different year, obviously for privacy settings, but like say it's a P23, yeah. So half the class, and this is just the way I'm not like this is so hard as a teacher, but like half the class are getting instructions, and the other half just have to sit and wait. And then when I'm giving you instructions, this other half of the class are getting up and getting those things, and it's noisy whilst I'm having to try and focus on what's being said. And I was like sitting there being like, Yeah, you're not wrong. Like this, this is a lot, actually. Yeah, you know, and it's not then that we come in and expect a classroom to be silent, it's never going to be it's never going to be, yeah. But how can you then support you know that that's then that's what it's when you're saying, Yeah, let's try and figure out some of these main situations here. Because I've also had young people, I'm sure, like you, connection's a real issue. Huge. I don't get on, or I don't like this key adult, and that's gonna happen. And there's only so much you can do in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

We can't sack the key adult. So, but yeah, like you once you know things, yeah, it's so much easier then to put something in place and have those conversations about how.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

So, as a parent in care, I could start breaking that down a little bit potentially with my young person. So, rather than just being like, what is it about school you don't like? Because I'm gonna get a I don't know, don't know everything.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Like for that, I would use a thermometer scale. So at the top of the scale, it would be like completely overwhelmed, overstimulated, and at the bottom, pretty calm, content, relaxed. And how I do it is that I get the young people to maybe pinpoint on that scale how each of those things make them feel. Okay, but yes, it's useful to have that information because you have visually an idea of what's difficult, but it opens up more of a conversation because I'll then start to question oh, I wonder why this classroom feels a little bit different to that one, and then that might bring out things like the noise in the classroom or the specific students in there are a bit more boisterous or something. Um so or I don't know what to do at lunchtime, or like I'm not sure where to go.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Walking around aimlessly, yeah. Okay, so if I'm a teacher or someone in education, I'm like statistically, you probably say if you're in any school setting, you 100% will have some young people in your school, probably multiple who are struggling with um school and accessing it. How do I help? Let's go if I'm a teacher and I have a pupil in my class who's really struggling coming in. What do I do?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I think it all comes back to that validation and being non-judgmental with parents because parents do often they get called into schools because you need to get your child into school, and it does often feel like a very threatening environment. And I suppose what I always advise is using what I would call partnership language, so it's more about like we're in this together, what can we do to support your child? We understand that this is quite difficult, we know that we're maybe seeing a different child when they're in school compared to how you are at school. I wonder what we could be doing here, and it could be as simple as like if you imagine that Coke bottle analogy I talked about. If a young person is in that response, like the fawn response, um, maybe all they need throughout the day to help them to regulate is some sensory breaks, and it doesn't have to be a dedicated sensory space necessarily that they go to for some, it could just be sent them on a message, it doesn't have to take up resources or time because that's something that I get a lot from schools. Like, we don't have the resources or the capacity to do all these things. I'm saying, but what things? Like, we're just asking it could actually be quite useful for you to send that child on a message to get them a bit of downtime, they're getting regulated. Then like it's simple strategies always comes back to.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah. I've always found as well having that connection stuff of like your key adult meeting you somewhere to be able to like have and loads of schools are doing uh soft starts now, yeah, which are really, really beautiful. Um, I'd love a soft start to my day, you know, and like actually your days go better when you do that. So it's yeah, slower pace starts, you know, the expectations where I'm coming in, I'm doing connection time, we're doing play-doh, we're playing a Lego, we're having a snack, and then I'm showing you what you're doing for the day, and like I'm helping you with that. And again, I understand capacity, I understand limitations with that, but you know, there will be ways to work around it. And if you're a setting that there are a lot of these young people, like I've seen them do like groups and like nurture groups nearly, you know. So I think it's about rather than jumping to oh, we can't access that, be like a open, yeah, be curious, and then I guess for as you're saying, to parents, then like from teachers of be really compassionate in that compassionate. I think also something I would probably jump in and advisor to if you're a teacher, it's just from like learning it myself. Um, like prep the parents ahead of time what the meeting's gonna be about. So don't just say, Can you come in for a meeting? Because that's terrifying to panics, right? And maybe I also haven't had a healthy relationship with school, and that makes me feel really nervous. I'm being called into the headmaster's office or the headmaster's. For sure. Like, let me know, give me a wee message, be like, Oh's good. Um, like just really think it'd be great to have a wee conversation around X, Y, and Z. So also they know that I'm not coming in and being like, uh, your young person is now not on our register. Yeah. Which has happened, you know, and that's potentially happened on a journey with that family. So their trauma response is going to be really high, and they're really, really anxious coming into that meeting. And actually being like, Listen, we just want to work and have a conversation about how we can better support this young person together.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And something else that's coming up there is um being flexible, like just having a little bit more flexibility. Okay. And if you think about things like regist timetables, so many of the families that come to me they'll say we're on a regist timetable, and that's fine. I don't know how I feel about registr timetables. The problem with them is that if a young person is already sporadically attending school, they're already on a regist timetable. It doesn't necessarily have to be a structured these are the days that you're coming in. It also should be the first thing you go to. No, like I think that's my issue with them. Yeah, um, some some schools as well will be saying, but you need to come in all the time or don't come in at all. And again, it comes back to can lack of consistency across schools as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

And then compassion, isn't it? If I have compassion for a young person and for a family, I'm gonna really want to help, you know. And there are so many, I've been in so many environments who are doing it. So too amazing. Well, and I think then it's looking at that and being like, you know, really encouraged by that and be like, actually, you know, there's small things that can make massive differences here. Even just like listening, isn't it? Like just listening. I've seen that happen, and parents be like, Oh, you're actually acknowledging what's happening here. Um, I guess this is an area, like, gosh, you could talk about it forever, that often feels incredibly hopeless. I think, especially, and I'm thinking of a few families I absolutely adore and have a big place in my heart, but their young person's been out of school for now years, they're they're not in the school system. Schools no longer contact them, they don't exist anymore. Um are there any encouragements you could give to families and children in Northern Ireland around this topic?

SPEAKER_01 22:47

I know it is so difficult for so many families, and what I would tell you is that firstly, you're the expert in your own child, but also you're not alone. Um, so many families that come to me, they feel like they're alone. They feel they're they're often made to feel like they're the only one experienced. Oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. It's only me. Yeah. Like you're the problem. And it's difficult for parents as well, because if they're getting their child to the school gate, maybe they've had the worst morning. It's been very challenging, very overwhelming for everybody in the household. They're getting to school, they think, right, we're really gonna try and get in, but the child's very overwhelmed, unable to get across the hurdle of the front door. And as a parent, they're maybe just saying all the other parents wave their child goodbye and wishing them well for the day, and then that's it. And there's a lot of frustration and maybe an element of jealousy as well that comes along with that from some parents. Um, I started, I was gonna say recently started, but it was well over a year ago now. Um, some parent groups specifically on this topic, yeah, and it was it only really evolved because I was having so many parents coming to me feeling like they were that they were the only one experiencing it. And we started off with a group in Newton Abbey, and I'd set it up just as a one-off for parents to come together for me to say, see, you're not alone, you have each other for support. And every single month since that group has met up and the support that they have for each other is amazing. Like, shout out to the Newton Abbey group, yeah. But there's also um there's Belafast group now, there's Strabane, there's one coming up, and then a skillant, there's groups all over the place now that are super evolving.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

So yeah, know that there's help out there, and you're not alone, and sometimes it even just you know it's not gonna solve the situation, yeah, but you'll feel like you're not alone in it. Yeah, no, I love that. Um, okay, finishing off, then quick equip, a tool or resource you love.

SPEAKER_01 24:38

This is maybe a bit, I don't know if it's cliche, but for me it's other people rather than a specific resource. Okay, yeah. I've learned so much from like personally, from me working with other professionals. And at the beginning, I suppose whenever I started Strive, I was a little bit precious about it and was like, this is my thing. But what I learned and what I have learned is that it's so much more powerful to be working together collaboratively again. It comes back to collaboration, and I suppose that comes for um parents and families as well, like reach out to other people and know that that supports their a mindset that helps you, a mindset that helps me. Um you're doing okay, you don't have to strive for perfection, absolutely perfect, yeah. And if you think about like I imagine like a bit of a ladder, you have your end goal at the top, and you can often focus on just so much on what you need to have at the top, I'm not there yet, so then there's a lot of frustration. So it's thinking about right, small wins. I've stepped up this ladder and I'm I'm I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. And a piece of advice you would share with others, piece of advice, um listen more than you talk.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Oh yeah, because it can be easy, and I suppose if we relate this back to the like the topic of today, it could be easy for everyone from all sides to try and just get their point across, and it feels a bit more of a fight and a bit more of a confrontation rather than that collaboration. But if we make a point of asking more questions and being curious and doing a bit more of that listening, there could be more scope for positive change.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

And that's whether you're supporting the parent or care or the young person, just listen. Yeah, yeah, really good. Elliane, thank you so much. There's so many other things we could go into, but I'm hoping today I know there'll be a few things there today that people will really connect with and be able to take away and hopefully just be encouraged by, and even like that you're saying that at the end of like you're actually not alone in this journey. And if you are experiencing this, um, being able to reach out and access those services, you know, and and contact yourself and be able to find some of those parent groups, just even have support around in this time is really, really important. Um, but yeah, I hope you enjoyed that podcast that it um inspired you and has equipped you a little bit more on your journey. Um and thanks so much for listening. Thanks, Elaine, for joining us. Done. Is that okay? Yeah.