Eden Equips
Welcome to Eden Equips, the podcast that shares real stories and practical tools to help parents, carers, and educators feel equipped for the journey of raising and supporting neurodivergent children and young people.
Eden Equips
Episode 023 with Sarah McDonnell
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What’s it really like being a teacher right now?
Rebecca chats with her sister Sarah, a teacher, about the pressures of teaching, supporting neurodivergent children, working with parents, and why asking for help matters.
Welcome to Eden Equips, the podcast that shares real stories, practical tools to help parents, carers, educators feel equipped in raising and supporting neurodivergent children and young people. Whether you're tuning in with a coffee, you're in the car, or you have a rare and precious quiet moment. I'm so glad you're here and thank you for taking the time to listen. I'm Rebecca, and today, no, you're not seeing double. We're joined by a very, very special guest. Today we're joined by my sister, my sister Sarah. Um, today she's not coming on technically as my sister, though we'll not pretend to not be related through this whole thing. Um, but as an incredibly gifted, passionate, and experienced educator. Sarah's been teaching in various primary school settings for nine years, we realise. Yeah, that's a long time. Which made no sense to us because we're both like we're like 15. Yeah. So 21 max. Yeah, it doesn't make sense at all. You've been teaching for nine years, but here we are, adults apparently, um, teaching across key stage one and two. Um, and I thought it was about time we really actually heard from a teacher who is in the thick of it, on the front lines with all these challenges that we speak about on this podcast and things that we hope to change and challenges within the education system. So I'm delighted you're here, especially at 38 weeks pregnant today, officially. Um, so and a pretty sleep-deprived as a mum already. Um, so I really appreciate it. Um, who knows where this conversation will go? Yeah. But I'll keep it contained. Okay. We'll keep it contained. Um, we'll dive in, see what happens, and see if we can be serious for this amount of time. Um, but teaching, that's really what we're here to talk about today. Listen, it's a tough gig. It is. I don't think we'll pretend otherwise. I really struggle at this time of year because then social media is like popping off about summer holidays. Right. Oh, I wish I was the teacher. That's my so much time off. And I think even just by starting to say, and there was a whole debate online this year that I saw raise its head about like how ridiculous it is, and it's not fair in kids, it's not fair in parents, and I really get like childcare. Yeah, it's not true. If you really understand that it is such a challenge, but for those who've never been in the education system or been a teacher or a classroom assistant or whatever that looks like, you don't realise the lifeline that the summer holidays are. Educators to keep going. Yeah. Because if you don't know already, uh, the turnover of teachers and educators is humongous. Um, here and in mainland as well. In mainland UK, it's massive. And here in Northern Ireland, um in Ireland in general, it's a huge conversation. Um, we've had teachers on already who've been teachers and stepped out of it. I was a teacher and stepped out of it. Like it's such a big story. So stuff like holidays are important, and but we're gonna dive in and talk about some of the reasons teaching is such a tough gig. Yeah, and especially at the moment, I think I'm seeing that more than ever, the pressure more than ever. In your opinion, yeah, what are some of those biggest challenges that you're facing you were facing in the classroom or have been facing in that day-to-day of classroom?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what is it? Well, maybe like first off, like I genuinely love teaching. I actually do. Like it does a point you drive you to tears, but you know, also tears of laughter. It is such a rewarding job, it is such an incredible job to work with little kids and be that impact in their lives. But it is really hard, right? It is really, really challenging. I think people don't realise how much it requires of yourself. It doesn't just require your intellect and your ability to portray how do we do you know, multiplication, how do we comprehend a story? It it's not just that intellectual capacity, it's so much more, it requires so much of you emotionally. I think that's one of the huge things that is so draining as a teacher. I mean, like, I know I come home and I don't want to tell my husband to ask me, Well, how's your day? And he'll chat away and I'm like, fine. Yeah. Because I've like spent the last six, seven hours pouring out into children.
SPEAKER_00It's not just you standing at the front, and as you said, here's how you do long division.
SPEAKER_01Or sitting at a desk, I'd love to sit at a desk. Yes, you would have loved to sit down. I would have loved to sit at a desk. I know. Well when I'm awife, it's like maybe you need to try and put your feet up a bit more. I'm like, I'm a primary school teacher.
SPEAKER_00Like that doesn't work because it is so much more complex than like even if you look back to like your um like experience in teacher training, as in like becoming a teacher, you know, in Stram Mills, that's not talked about. It's like here's how to teach this, here's how to do XYZ. It's not the here's how to hold the capacity and the emotion regulation of 30 plus kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's it. Like, you know, you're getting these little complex human beings into your class that are coming from a diverse range of backgrounds with a diverse range of needs and abilities and strengths and capabilities and interests and likes, and you're trying to somehow cohesively hold these together and hit curriculum targets while then also helping them navigate the difficulties of friendships, of processing, worry of trying to figure out what they do when they're feeling angry. Like, it's just I think it is just quite a colossal encompassing thing. I mean, like sometimes I liken it. I was like, well, imagine you're on stage for six hours, okay, um, but none of your audience are actually sitting really listening, they're falling out with each other. There's somebody in the corner having a meltdown because you've actually halfway through your performance given them a worksheet to fill out, and then somebody comes in and wants to assess how you're getting on, how your learners have got on, how have you got on as a teacher, and you know, you're it's just actually exhausting because much of it.
SPEAKER_00What's interesting in that analogy though, Sarah, is you're on show. Yeah. Like you're like, I'm imagining a stage you're vulnerable. Someone comes in from the wings to like check how you're doing and just stands there and watches.
SPEAKER_01And some I think that's one of the problems and one of the challenges in teaching at the minute, because in a lot of schools there can be that culture of checking in, making sure the teacher's doing the right thing, as opposed to the supportive, collaborative nature that teaching needs. 100%. Um, and I think that's because of the pressures that leadership are under in terms of making sure there is that performance level within a school, also of them trying to make do with nothing. Yeah. Like I think the reality is one of our toughest challenges is that our classrooms are complex and getting increasingly complex, and there's no support for it. There's no support, there's no it's cutting down. And in and in my experience, over like the last in my teaching experience, that funding has been cut visually that I've seen like learning support going, yeah, counselling services going because schools can afford them. Teacher training, teacher like continuous training, yes, yeah. Because schools can't afford it, and then what we're doing is what we can find, maybe a video online trying to update our skills, which isn't the same. It isn't the same, and it's not enough for being the best to be able to equip and work with the kids that we have in front of us because the kids that we have in front of us aren't the same as they were, you know, 20 years ago, aren't the same as they were before the pandemic. Like, let's be honest. I know everyone's like, let's don't talk about it. It's had a huge impact on a generation. What was that, six years ago now? So that are those are still affecting those kids that are coming into us and starting in P1, P2, and throughout. And I know that's you know, talking to colleagues that are in the secondary sector as well. Okay, huge impact on emotional well-being, yeah, on mental health, yeah, on academic as well, capabilities and access to some of that pressure.
SPEAKER_00What I'm hearing is that it's there's more to do, but less to do with. Like you don't have as much. Like, you know, you would notice that a child, there's stuff going on at home, you maybe know that, and all of a sudden now you're their sole support. Rather than like, I'm thinking back when I was teaching, it would be like I would be supporting them, but I'd also have referred them out. So um, our in-school counsellor would be coming and doing sessions with them.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's that frustration that there are still some of those services out there, so you're desperately referring to these children, being like they need help and not getting it. Yeah, being like because everything's been spread thin. Yeah, and you're chatting to parents and you're telling them that this is what they need and this is what I've done, but then it's not right back again and it's two year witnesses. Where it's like, yeah, yeah, we'll see you again in four years, and you're like, that's this kid needs help now.
SPEAKER_00And it's that whole like uh you were talking about collaboration, which is actually something I'd love to talk about today, but um and that actually does lead us into that next point. But even before we get to that one, there's a few points of collaboration there. There's like government collaboration in terms of go into the classrooms, don't visit and take a picture and leave. Like no, and don't look at their statistics, uh, all that chat about A levels best year. I'm like, yeah, but our young people's mental health is the worst it's ever been. Yeah, 100%. Like if you look at it statistically, that's on the DK.
SPEAKER_01And if you look at how the new curriculum that's coming out has been sold. Yes, it's been sold on statistics of from countries, you know, in Asia. And that's what culturally very different. Culturally very different, and you know, don't get me wrong, the curriculum needs to change, and it's 20 years old. Like, come on, it's wild, yeah. It needs to change, and there are some parts that I look through and I'm like that could be positive, that's good. We need to change, we need to adapt because our children are different, right? But basing it off a culture that is thousands of miles apart, not just physically, but in all aspects, I know there's a lot of concern among staff. I've heard it, yeah, that it's just not going to be what we need, and it's gonna put extra pressure on teachers that are already demoralized and burnt out and trying to do so much, and that collaboration then.
SPEAKER_00So, okay, government collaboration is lacking for sure. Um, but then even you're saying that in-house collaboration of then feeling like you're being washed rather than supported, yeah, and you really beautifully acknowledge like that's because there's like layers of pressure and expectations, but I see that so much, which is interesting, because obviously, like I'm able to go into loads and loads of different schools, which is so interesting. It's always the same theme. And the hardest thing for me to do when I'm entering a classroom is to get the teacher to trust me and be like, I'm not coming in to like observe you as in like I'm taking notes about what you I'm like, oh, how can I how can I support and like nearly like praise you through this? And I've been learning to do that so much of being like, here's some things I love that you're doing in your classroom space, here's a Phoebe things that will probably help lessen the load a wee bit, like you're doing because I think you know, teachers in general, they they are you know working so hard and trying so hard to do the best, and then there's for many of them a wall comes up when anybody tries to poke into what they are doing because you know, maybe they've had a negative experience in the past, or right maybe it's just but you know, but we do still need to learn, and I think um for teachers that's a really important thing for you know, that diverse nature now we have in our classrooms is teachers' willingness to learn, which can sometimes be a huge barrier to providing what we need for the children in our classrooms. Yeah, right. I think that's huge that you do like we're saying majority and that is really important, but there are teachers who are not wanting to change or learn, saying, I know well 30 years ago this worked, and you're like, Yeah, maybe that's irrelevant to it. That's irrelevant to this conversation, actually. That's nearly leading into that next point of I think the biggest and most powerful thing in school I'm learning is collaboration and the lack thereof of collaboration between teachers and parents um and carers. What would you see, and like in your experience, that is a positive and productive collaboration with the child at the center between a parent and a teacher. I think what does that look like?
SPEAKER_01Firstly, that you know, I want to encourage parents that they are essential to their child's education. Cool. It's not about dropping them off at the door, and then that's your job. And I think sometimes we can maybe feel like that, or parents feel like they can't be part of it because that's that's school. That's school, or maybe they've had a negative experience in the past and they're a bit apprehensive about school and they're apprehensive about teachers. Yeah, that's a good reflection. Um and I think that takes a lot of work for a school as a whole to break down as teachers individually to break down. Now obviously, we're all we all gel with different people differently, and there have been parents I've worked better with, and parents maybe that'd be a bit more challenging to work with because you know, personalities and just working with that. But I think I want to encourage parents that you do your actually essential. Like research shows that the most significant contribution to a child's educational outcome is their parental input, it's not their teacher. No, we have to be good, we have to be the best that we can be. I'm not saying I'm not pushing off that responsibility from us, but that collaboration piece, but that collaboration is is so important.
SPEAKER_00And does that come back to like we would say a lot in like in my world, we would talk about encouraging parents is you are the expert in your kid.
SPEAKER_01100%, and I think I feel that more now as a parent myself than I did before.
SPEAKER_00So do you see that more now that you're like, oh no, I am like that makes sense?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because I mean like you know, you've raised this child from day dots, and actually, you know, so much of a bigger picture than a teacher in a classroom with 30 children is ever gonna know that they have them. Yes, I become so close and get to know my kids so well over the course of a year. But I don't have the eight years prior. No. Or their life. They go home, they wake up, how are they first saying at bed time? Do you know what? That's some of the really important things. Now I know some teachers really dislike Seesaw. I know there's a huge hatred of them there, and and I know that some schools have now cut it off and not using it.
SPEAKER_00You're not allowed to, I've been in the city.
SPEAKER_01And then the only way you get to contact a par uh uh the teacher is through phone call. That's quite intimidating. I hate phoning people, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. Um, and that's quite intimidating for a parent to be able to now we still use Seesaw, which I think is great because some parents are really good and said, like, we had a really tricky night. Right, didn't sleep much, da da da da. This has been a bit of a tricky morning, and I can see that before the kid walks through the door. You're helpful. So then I know how to and actually know, well, actually, that kid needs me to go over and make sure they get settled in as opposed to being able to get on with their morning task.
SPEAKER_00Um and doesn't that, even that whole thing with Seesaw that's happening that I've seen in various schools, doesn't that show the breakdown of collaboration of going, we're the teachers, you're the parents, we can't talk.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's also is linked to the amount of pressure teachers feel under. So then they're like, they're like, I've got so many messages responding.
SPEAKER_00And it nearly needs to be like, I remember in our and actually even schools I'm thinking of, there's a few schools I know have done this. When I was teaching, it was we used Claft Dojo very similar to Seesaw, and it was like uh at the start of the year a letter went out. Here's the timings that you will be able to like you that you the teacher may respond within. Like a working artist. I am very much a working R's for sure, but also like I then put something out being like I really appreciate every single message. I may not have time to reply to all of them at the present time, but I will have seen it because my notifications are on. So I remember a same thing, incredibly useful, really tricky morning, huge meltdowns before we even got him on the taxi. Hope he's okay on arrival. Yeah, and then I'm prepped.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, rather than I'm like, hey, even for like I know that I can sometimes drop a message even you know quickly at the start of lunch, be like, right, um this is a bit unsettled, but we're working through it, but it we're all okay because you don't get the time at the doors.
SPEAKER_00No, I can't.
SPEAKER_01And you know, a lot of our kids, the older ones, they're walking home, so okay. It's a key source. I find it's very useful.
SPEAKER_00So collaboration is I need you to talk to me, I need you to share with me, get to know me as well.
SPEAKER_01Like you know what? I love taking parents on trips. Okay. Because then I get to chat to the parents and they chat to me as like a human being rather than as the teacher, because obviously you have your set parent-teacher interviews where you're your teacher and parent as opposed to like human beings. Um and I think establishing you know the fact that you do respond to messages, the fact that you do chat helps that conversation. And I always say to parents, look, if there's something they don't understand in their homework, I was like, homework is so frustrating and so many problems of the you know, real do we all we all know that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01But one of the things that you know we try to do with our homeworks is that it is supposed to be a consolidation of what they've learned. So if you're telling me and if you've written a note saying this is impossible, they don't understand at all. Cool, that's a team. Yeah, actually, because you know, you miss things. Oh flip, they didn't get that at all. Or they were they were spending great time in Jimmy beside them, you know, and he he was helping them out or just saying, Here's your answers. Right, right, right. So I think a child's got something when they don't, but then homework all of a sudden, if a parent is doing that with them and and writes me a note or sends me a message. That's helpful saying they didn't get this. No shame. No shame. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And it's not a and I know if parents are listening to this, they're like, Well, that's all well and good, but Sarah's not my teacher. Like, you know, I know there are really difficult stories out there, and there are teachers who aren't willing to learn and collaborate and we'll shut you down, and that's why we talk about like uh advocating. But I really, really think, and I remember saying this in the conference day when somebody had asked about how do you deal with tricky teachers, there's so many of them, and I was like, I just want to acknowledge all the teachers here in the room this morning because you're the ones fighting for a kid, you're the ones spending a Saturday, yeah, your own time, your own money to come to things like this. So I think we have to know there are teachers and and there are good teachers out there, so many of them so many who do want to advocate as well. Just even through that advocation, I know you've advocated, although you're mainstream classrooms look totally different. I talk about that all the time. That language can't really be used anymore because you know you've got 10 plus kids um with differing needs, 100%, you know, and everything. You've advocated for so many neurodivergent children, young people in your mainstream classroom over the years. I know you're open to pushing boundaries, you're not scared to question systems at the best of times. Never mind. You're pregnant and there's hormones and you're just saying, that's just dangerous. Oh, let's tell those stories. Um, but practically, what's been most effective for supporting these children, young people in your classroom? Can you think of any practical things you've done?
SPEAKER_01As a teacher, using the expertise of others.
SPEAKER_00Oh.
SPEAKER_01Like, okay, I didn't think you were gonna say that. Yeah. Like we have to stop pretending that we know everything. The minute as teachers that we think we know everything, our effectiveness as a teacher goes down the drain.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Because we're supposed to be inspiring kids to learn and to have a lifelong that's what we talk about. Giving kids a lifelong passion for learning. So what you don't want to learn now as a teacher? So as a teacher, are you saying that you don't have anything to learn? Yeah, and asking asking for help. Just saying I don't know what to do. Because you know, you will try X, Y, and Z, you'll have tried things before and then you Yeah. That doesn't work. Right. And whether that's a colleague who's already worked with that people, or you know, you're sent to in school, or whether it's researching stuff yourself or looking up, you have to be willing to go and look for the answers. Yeah. Because if you just ignore it, it's never gonna, it's not gonna help anybody.
SPEAKER_00I've loved when I've got like DM, I'm terrible at replying to DMs because it does get overwhelming at times, I don't lie. But like email, yeah, literally the emails. I'm I'm good at responding to my emails. And I've got emails, normally when people DM me, it says email me, basically in the response. And from teachers, I've loved that. Who I've never met, you have no relationship with, and they'll be like, here Becca, follow your stuff, or came to one thing this one time. I have a kid in my classroom at the moment, but any suggestions? Yeah, and I'll not be able to give the perfect answer because I don't know the whole picture. But I immediately I'm like, I want to help you because you've been willing to ask, you know, and go, no idea. I always say I'm most excited when I'm delivering training when a head teacher or teachers go, Yeah, we don't know anything about this. Yeah, we're actually not doing a good job of this at all. I love that because it shows me you're so willing to learn rather than and we actually all know a lot about this. And I'm like, well, here, well done, because this is my specialty, and I don't know everything about this. And I never will. No, 100%. So I think that's a really that's that's a beautiful one. Um nearly in the classroom a decade. What's your advice to somebody if they're listening, stepping into their first year of teaching? Run.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm joking, do it. She's she is joking. You've stayed. No, you've stayed. No, I've stayed. You're staying, and it's well worth saying. Um, no, just I think that willingness to learn. Yeah. Not and not being I like because the girl that's in covering for me, she is just out of out of her teacher training. And I said, do not be afraid to ask for help. I was like, the staff here will support you. Lovely. The staff here will give you the answers, but don't be afraid. I remember that first year being and I had such a supportive mentor, and I remember him coming into my classroom and being like, It have these challenges, is this being I'm like, yes, this is what it's been like, and I don't know what to do. And I wasn't because I was trying to prove something. Yeah. I know what I'm doing, but you don't? You just No, of course I don't.
SPEAKER_00I just you know you've got some theoretical knowledge, but But no real practical here's here's kids sitting in front of you day and daylight. I remember it feels Wild, doesn't it? When you step in and you're like, why is no one in the classroom with me observing? This is terrifying. Exactly. I think it's really interesting. That was my first thing. I remember out in the school I taught incredibly supportive, and that's what they said. They were like the most powerful thing you can do in your whole teaching career is continually ask for help. Yeah, exactly. Ask questions.
SPEAKER_01Learn 100%. And I think that's that's also but also be you know not afraid that although you're young that you don't have anything to contribute. Yeah, you have so much to contribute. We have your ideas. We we do. We need you to come meet our young teachers. And I'm hoping there's stuff that you're learning in your hope it's changed. You know, that in your courses in your that you can say, Well, what about this? Or I've thought about this.
SPEAKER_00Well, why are we doing it this way? Well, actually, I've been raised fully with the internet now, so here's how I can see it's for good, or here's what we can teach young people.
SPEAKER_01So I think you know, don't be afraid to ask for help. Keep on learning, but also realize that your voice, even though it's young and teaching, really valuable.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um we need the positive of that too. And we need passionate teachers. Yeah. Especially when you know, uh that we've been in it a bit longer are are tired.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You need people coming in with the enthusiasm. Yeah. I remember my first year, I remember going to my principal about Legoland when I took my class Legoland. Yeah, another. And I look back on that and think, that was a first year teacher. 100%. Like I was full of life, I was full of energy and passion, and no challenge was too big. I I wonder if I would I probably would, but with a bit more scepticism in it, rather than being like, Yeah, what could go wrong? Yeah. Oh. Ten meltdowns later. Yeah, exactly. Um, you and I are both big believers in hope, just to round this up. Um, it has to be at the centre of how we support children and young people.
SPEAKER_01100%.
SPEAKER_00What's your hope for schools in Northern Ireland?
SPEAKER_01Genuinely they get that they get the support that they need. That those that can, the governing authorities, that they put the money where it needs to go. Right. That they base the changes on things that will actually matter and things that will make a difference for our kids. And that you know, the governing bodies won't just see it as statistics, but will have a real heart for the children of Northern Ireland and the beautiful diversity that we have in our classrooms and want to support teachers to do the best that they can. Yeah. That's that's what our kids need. That's what our teachers need. That's good. So thanks, Sarah.
SPEAKER_00Finishing up then our quick equip game. I don't know if you looked at this. Your brain's gotta get ready to go here. You ready for this? Uh rapid fire tools, one resource that you love. In the classroom, I love a bit of nurturing five. Yes, I've heard of this before. Well, I think obviously from you, tell me that quickly, even though this rapid room.
SPEAKER_01Five minutes in your classroom, yeah. You do a little movement break, followed by a little bit of stretching, followed by some breathing together, followed by here's some nice music, put your head on the table for 30 seconds and just relax, brings everyone back down. Yeah. Vital for some.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, useful. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And even just saying that if you're listening, going, I know when I have X many kids in my class, I mean sorry, your percentage in your classroom says high children with special educational needs as being extortionately high, actually. Um, and that's essential. As you say, useful for all, vital for some. A mindset that helps you keep learning. Keep learning, love it, and a piece of advice that you'd share with others.
SPEAKER_01Parents that your vital collaborators in your child's education. That's really good. We want your help.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we need your help actually. Yeah, we need you part of this journey. Yeah, yeah. Really love that. Sarah, thank you so much um for joining us and you know, taking us. There's so much more we could like delve into, and you can maybe imagine the conversations that um if our kids are entertained on a Sunday afternoon at our parents' house, that Sarah and I end up yapping away about the education system down a rabbit hole, so how we're gonna change it, and then it's interrupted by some sort of human need of someone leading the toilet somewhere, body emergency emergencies. But no, I I really appreciate and I hope parents, you feel encouraged listening to what a teacher's heart is and what so many teachers' hearts um actually are, um, and teachers that you feel inspired, you're doing a great job. Keep going, keep learning. If you feel wobbly about that, look inside, have a wee reflection. Why are you resistant to change? Um, and we'll talk about that in another episode as well. But thank you so much, Sarah. You're welcome. Thank you.