635 - Killer guitar songs, app overload, and the mixing trick that shouldn't work

Brian, Blake, and Richard are back for Episode 635 of the Chasing Tone Podcast - Killer guitar songs, app overload, and the mixing trick that shouldn't work

The guys kick off with the hardest songs they've ever had to learn as Richard's wrestling with The Killers' "Mr. Brightside," a deceptively simple arpeggiated riff up at the 17th fret that turns out to be an absolute finger-twister at 150 BPM. He panics when his pro-guitarist mate describes the song using a four-letter word unfit for any broadcast medium. Brian reminisces about slinging down a Steve Vai song at a high-school band tryout and never going back.

Blake digs into some Bullet for My Valentine, and everyone marvels at Geddy Lee somehow playing wild Rush bass lines while singing a completely different melody on top. Then the guys look at this week's big debate: are apps ruining guitar gear? Richard makes the case that the moment an app sits between you and the pedal, it kills the experience - a pedal has five knobs, so why reach for your phone? Modelers, amps and power amps get a pass, but single pedals should just work under your feet. 

There's talk of younger players going more analog than the hosts - buying tapes, old cars and Boss pedals - and whether modern rock has tipped into full cosplay, from Greta Van Fleet to costumed acts like Castle Rat, Ghost and Sleep Token, where the image increasingly outweighs the music. Richard geeks out over a production trick he found via Matt Berry on That Pedal Show.

James Blunt, Flanders and Swann, The rest is a monopoly, the jet engine turning 100, and dancing widdershins round the maypole...it's all in this week's Chasing Tone!

Transcript

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Brian 0:06

Good morning.

Richard 0:08

Good evening.

Blake 0:13

Good, whatever it is, wherever you are.

Richard 0:17

I mean it's one of the three common times, night, day, or in between, I guess.

Blake 0:25

Oh. I'm just looking at our list of things to talk about here, and I'm like, wow. I don't know about any of this stuff.

Brian 0:32

I'm gonna start with the hardest song that you've ever learned. I I've been out of the I have no idea what's going on, apparently.

Richard 0:39

Yeah. What what is the hardest song either of you have ever learned?

Brian 0:45

Like learned, like completely learned, like done, finished it, figured it out?

Richard 0:50

Played in a band or to a play in a band level. Because I'm gonna read you a description of something I'm doing at the moment, and even the description is enough to put you off. Okay, this is a description of the guitarist. So it isn't the song. He is also noted for his unusual voicings and digit distending scru string skipping finger work on the guitar in a similar fashion of Andy Summers of the Police. For me, all of those words say run away now. Uh what song is that? Well, I I want you to guess via the medium of no clues. It's Mr. Bright Side by the Killers. Are you familiar with the side? Is that one of those like deceptively hard songs? Deceptively hard should be really easy, but essentially it is all based around an arpeggiated riff at the 17th fret. Down tune it, and you're moving the bass notes on that arpeggiated riff. So you're up at the 17th fret, you've got your little finger on the 19th fret, and at one point you have to move your first finger to the 15th fret. Yeah, that's okay. And then you get to like the chorus section where you've got to do the same, but at fret seven, and you've got to get a stretch from stret from fret three to fret seven at one point, lay that down as a chord in the middle of a fairly fast 150 BPM song. It's one of those like guitar riffs that is all deceptively simple. You look at the notes, nothing strikes you as uh that's gonna be tough, and then you try playing it, and it does your noggin in.

Blake 2:46

See, that's not the most impressive thing about that band, though. The most impressive thing about that band is somehow they were able to secure the name The Killers in like 2003 or whatever. There has somehow not been a band named The Killers.

Richard 3:04

There must have been in other countries, they just overrode it.

Blake 3:08

Yeah.

Richard 3:09

I love that song.

Brian 3:11

I think my song was a Steve Vai song.

Richard 3:13

So so that like you would think that straight away, right? Technically, any of those guys, Vi, Satriani, you know, Malmstein, they're all gonna come out with like mind-bendingly stupid stuff. I would never try and play those in a band.

Brian 3:28

But this well, I mean that's that's where I was. I mean, I was in high school and I was trying out for this band in high school. That's how long ago it was when people actually tried out for bands. And um this guy, another guy I was playing with is really good. And for some reason, he thought I would be able to pull this off. I was nowhere near able to pull this off. Like, I probably sound like I threw the guitar down the stairs trying to play it. Yeah, that's where it abruptly ended. Can you that was the first and last practice with that band?

Blake 4:01

Hey, do you think you could play this one? It's only it's just by one of the greatest living guitarists. It's that's all. Yeah, one of the best of all time.

Richard 4:10

Like, you know, I'm not going to be going into a band where I'm expected to play anything by Hendrix or Vi or any of these like absolute guitar virtuosos, but I didn't realize how much of a virtuoso the guitarist from The Killers is. But now I've played this is like the second killer song I've learned, and none of them have been normal so far. So uh yeah, this is just and it's it's one of those where you have to learn the muscle memory, you can't just like wing this. This is such a a repeated set of notes that clarity is everything. So, again, Bri, it's not like this is a memory um test for me. Like, do I know where all the notes are? Do I remember all the techniques? This is a my brain will not put my fingers in the places it needs to do and continually repeat it at accuracy. And I think there's a few songs like that. I think that that happens from time to time.

Blake 5:16

I'm gonna go watch him play this. I've listened to this song who knows how many times, but I've never paid attention to what he was doing. I'm gonna go watch him play it live on the tube later.

Richard 5:27

So like I approached it like I'd approach any song, and it was like, right, fine, I've got this, I'll I'll slow it down. And look, I can play it at 80% without any particular problems. When you speed it up to 100%, it's hard. And then I was just casually chatting to Jamie, who is obviously a pro guitarist of an extremely high level, and he referred to this song in a four-letter word that I cannot repeat on any station, even an adult one. And when someone of that caliber says, Yeah, that song is uh insert expletive here, you start to sweat bullets and think, well, if he struggles, I'm really not gonna go. It'll make you feel a little better, though, right? Like, well, okay. Kind of, sort of, but not because my band are just like, why don't you mime it? I'm like, that will not be happening. So we we may end up dropping it if I can't master it.

Blake 6:16

Yeah, fair enough. I was trying to think of what the hardest song I'd played with the band. I I played so much punk rock, like none of it was hard. Uh but we did for a while, we played some uh a couple Bullet for My Valentine songs, and those have some some weedly we's in them that it was not usually within my my repertoire. I wasn't usually the guy playing lead, I was usually doing vocals and rhythm. Um, but those songs were there's they're straightforward metal songs, but they're they were a little more complicated than you know the three-chord punk rocca that I was I was used to playing at the time. So yeah, that's probably the hardest thing I played with a band.

Brian 6:54

Some songs that I've played with bands were not really hard as far as the lead goes, but it's like maybe there's timing stuff that's going on that you know, one verse does one thing, then the chorus does something a little bit different, and then the next verse does something yet different again. Like that as a band, that all seemed really difficult to pull off. Yeah. You know, and especially because if if one person plays it like it's supposed to be, and the other people just play it in 4-4 or regular time, then it throws everything off. It's like everybody has to be so tight and on the same page.

Richard 7:27

It it is true, Bri, when all of your bandmates are playing in different time signatures, that's a difficult song to play. That makes things difficult. Yeah, that's uh this is related.

Blake 7:37

So I was uh a rush song came, well, Tom Sawyer of quote course came on at the gym the other day and I was like, showing Vincent was like, duh, yeah, we got some rush going. Look at listen to this and explaining to him because he's starting to um dabble again into some drums and percussion-based things. I was like, listen. Let's throw him into the deep end then. Well, I wasn't really talking about that. I was like, uh, so this might make you laugh, Brian. Uh you remember Bob and Doug McKenzie? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So Richard, are you familiar with Bob and Doug McKenzie? Um, no. Uh there it's a comedy from the late 80s, I would say.

Brian 8:18

Maybe maybe early 80s. I'm thinking as early, yeah. Like take off, eh?

Blake 8:21

Yeah, exactly. It's a couple guys, it's Rick Moranis and uh Dave Thomas. Yeah. And they're crispy.

Brian 8:28

It's Rick Moranis.

Blake 8:29

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Brian 8:30

I never knew that. Yeah, well we didn't.

Blake 8:33

So why Brian probably didn't know that, Richard, is because those they were big on audio. They were and it was their albums were big, and they did have DPS.

Brian 8:42

People would buy yeah. For those listening, yeah, people would buy tapes of people doing comedy back then.

Richard 8:48

Yeah. And I grew up with that too, and I loved it. So did I, to be fair. I mean, we didn't have a VCR first, but we did have comedy records. Yeah. One of one of Radio Hall's greatest comedy musical duos. And I guarantee some of our listeners are. Oh, I'm sure of it. I have not.

Brian 9:12

Now, how this relates to Rush is I was gonna say, I remember um Gay Lee was on one of those two.

Blake 9:18

That's exactly where I'm going with it. So Vincent is a big fan of the comedy record, and he loves Bob and Doug Mackenzie. So he's listened to that one quite a bit.

Brian 9:27

Loves Bob and Doug, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, he's a big fan. I grew up with that tape, man. Yeah, I can I can I did too. I love that tape.

Blake 9:35

Yeah, yeah. So he's he's a big fan, and so I was like, listen, this is the guy that does take off. This is Getty Lee from Rush. This is who that is, and I was like, he's like, oh, and then why I brought it into this conversation is I was I was showing him like, listen to what Getty's doing with his he's playing the bass and singing at the same time, but he's not doing it like you would typically see people doing, and he's doing these crazy bass lines with a different melody over the top. I'm like, I don't even know how that man's brain works.

Brian 10:04

I different melody, odd timings, everything else, and singing, you know, in the pocket. How do you do that? I don't know.

Richard 10:12

I've said this before being a bass player and singing is particularly hard. But unfortunately for me, to make me look even worse, the singer in the new band I'm playing with plays bass at the same time really well. I hate him, he's so talented. He can also play drums, keys, and guitar. Probably better than me.

Brian 10:30

It seems like bass players are always good drummers, too.

Richard 10:33

Oh no, oh no, that's a wide sweeping generalization of the drummer, not my experience.

Brian 10:40

Yeah, it seems like every bass player that I played with around Nashville, they're always great drummers. They're always just well, I say great drummers, much better than most people.

Richard 10:50

I I think you've just stumbled on some edge cases there, good sir. I don't know.

Blake 10:54

I think that edge case is Nashville.

Brian 10:56

Yeah.

Blake 10:58

I think that's probably true.

Brian 10:59

Your pool is quite better at fiddle and guitar, keys, and everything singing and songwriting and producing recording and engineering.

Blake 11:10

Yeah.

Richard 11:11

Like the musical record is is dead, though, right? Like absolutely no one is is making those anymore. I famously Cheech and Chong became famous because of their records. So you mean comedy? Comedy records. You said musical. Yeah, I meant comedy as well. Okay, I'm fallen, you know. Yeah, I'm with you. But it's it's it's gotta be a dead genre. Musical records, also dead, judging by the charts, but that's another conversation. But the comedy record, that's gotta be gone down, right?

Blake 11:40

Yeah, unless you're talking about Weird Owl.

Richard 11:43

Yeah, true. My daughter went to see him and he's still popular. That was three years ago, so yeah, yeah. Vincent, also a big fan of Weird Owl. So you need to get Vincent into the Bonzo Dog Doodar band. I've told you. You have they are the ultimate comedy band.

Blake 12:00

But does it so that's a good question. So like the Bob and Doug Mackenzie record is not a m it has music on it, but it's not a musical record per se. There are just skits on it, yeah, mostly with a couple songs.

Richard 12:14

Um kind of like the early Monty Python records, which started off as basically skits and they would intersperse some songs, and then eventually they had enough songs to make a whole album of songs, so they did that to make more money. But like initially, it was just the comedy on record, because there was no other way of sharing it back in the 70s, I guess. I wish that was still a thing. Well, I think the podcast has taken it over, hasn't it? I like I heard this week that one of my favorite, and this is probably a Patreon topic, but one of my favourite podcasters has given up his main show, and he said the reason is is too many famous comedians have come into podcasting and are now just doing podcasts, which are essentially audio versions of their show, their material. And like, funnily enough, professional comedians are funnier than three guys in random locations around the world with various facial hair adornments. What Ryan has none for the record.

Blake 13:12

For now. For now, yeah. Uh yeah, weird how the professional comedians are funnier than the unprofessional non-comedians. Weird.

Brian 13:20

Have you guys noticed on Netflix that there's a huge podcast section now?

Blake 13:25

Yes. Yeah.

Brian 13:26

That's that's a major category of video podcasts now.

Blake 13:29

Yeah, I'm really curious how it's gonna go for them. It's relatively new, what the last six months or so? Yeah, and actually, last podcast was one of the trailblazers on that.

Richard 13:39

They they were one of the first podcasts that kind of got that notoriety. And then over here, there's like Gary Lineker, who's a famous footballer, has this whole podcast like industry called The Rest is. So you have like the rest is football, the rest is entertainment, and they are like number one in in every category. Like the top three podcasts in this country, they're probably all owned by Gary Lineker, the ex-Lester City football player, which makes them terrible by default. Is that how that works? Let's have a look at the podcast. But yeah, they're they're big on Netflix. And what I've noticed as well, I don't know whether you've noticed it, but the Apple um podcast player now plays video by default. So if you play a podcast, it is now playing you the video version.

Blake 14:27

Spotify's done that for a while, and what I've noticed is because the uh like the Tape Spaghetti Podcast, we do video and we have since the first episode. The video performance, even though Tone Mob is much bigger and has been around longer, the video performance on Spotify for the newer, smaller show is way better on that platform. Um, so they're definitely I my question is are people more actually more engaged with video? Or is it just what's being pushed?

Richard 15:01

I think it's just what's being pushed. I mean, I don't know about you guys, but whenever I've put on a podcast video, I've watched it for about 20 seconds.

Blake 15:11

Yeah, and I close the screen and I listen to it in my headphones.

Richard 15:14

Well, I just leave it running and go off and do something. And the fact there's a few guys talking, but again, I I may be I might be an edge case. Yeah, I I wasn't wrong. In the UK charts at the moment, number one, the rest is history, number three, the rest is politics US, number five, the rest is entertainment, number six, the rest is politics, number nine, the rest is classified, all by the same media company. And for me, I've said this before, yeah, more power to anyone making stuff, but when it becomes kind of all run by one network, then it all feels a little bit samey to me, and I just tune out of that stuff. So I I just go to weirder and weirder podcasts, which is not a bad thing.

Blake 15:56

It's interesting how podcasting, you know, we've been doing it for a long time. I I wouldn't say that we're we're definitely not the the first to do it, Brian, but like we were pretty early to the medium, and back then it just felt it felt like it didn't feel like there were too many podcasts at that time.

Brian 16:16

I remember I remember having to Google quite a bit to figure out how to make a podcast. Yeah, exactly. Like, how do you get it to distributed? I mean, like there wasn't services that was that were all in one, really. Like that.

Blake 16:29

No, no, no. But it took some work. The landscape was so different because some of the the biggest shows were people you'd never heard of before.

unknown 16:37

Yeah.

Blake 16:37

You know, it'd be like, oh, this is the Pat Flynn's podcast or whatever. It's been the number one in business. I'm like, who is this guy? You know?

Brian 16:46

There's a big video game one called Rooster Teeth or something like that, too, that was huge. Um, and that's kind of where we got the idea, really.

Blake 16:55

Yeah. And a lot of them have uh a lot of them have continued, a lot of them still exist, and they're just not the the chart toppers that they once were, but they retain like that core audience. And in some ways, I think that's kind of what we have going on here. Like we would rank oddly high in music for a while, and we're still there. It's still it it's still a thing, but it seems like it's really driven by like the core people that have been listening to us for some reason for a decade. Um thank you. I don't know why you torture yourself. Yeah, but thank you.

Richard 17:28

They're all wonderful people. A few of them have reached out to me in the last week, and it's always surprising when someone's like, I've been listening to the podcast for this long. I'm like, You have? You're still sane, amazing. Uh so yeah, shout out to this episode. No more sanity. Do our best. Yeah.

Blake 17:46

Um but you're right, Richard. I think maybe the the the podcast world has erased the need for a comedy record, but I would love if somebody put out a podcast or any kind of audio form that was more structured like those used to be, where you'd have the different acts, you know what I mean? And like those those records were so fun to listen to.

Richard 18:10

Somewhere between an audiobook and a podcast thing. Exactly. Yeah. Have we just invented a new form? That's another another thing for our book of inventions, Blake. The coffee table book? The coffee table book, that's another one. I like it. Uh good. All right. So uh yeah, stop listening to other people's podcasts and only listen to us. I think it was the message that we were trying to subtly give that.

Blake 18:37

That's what we were trying to convey, yeah. Yeah.

Richard 18:38

I I did cop a little bit of Beatles-based hatred for not understanding your reference. It's not my fault you guys sounded Australian last week. Like, honestly, I it is there's nothing we can do about that.

Blake 18:52

So I got blisters on me fingers.

Richard 18:55

Again, is that Rolf Harris? Is that Paul Hogan? I don't know. Does that sound like Paul Hogan to you? Sounds Australian to my.

Blake 19:10

I don't think the other one sounded like that. Um maybe.

Richard 19:15

Uh this is a personal issue I have to face. For my an my wedding anniversary, my wife has requested that rather than do what I suggest, which is go and have a fancy meal, I take her to see James Blunt in concert. Okay? Brian, are you familiar with James Blunt? Uh, let me look him up. Beautiful! Yeah, that was his big song, yes. Oh, I know the song. Yeah, you know that song. Well, then you know who James Blunt is, because that's largely all he's ever done. I mean, he's done a few other songs, and he's quite the raconteur, etc. These tickets, boys, are 125 pounds each. So that's like 175 dollars each. Woof.

Brian 19:57

Isn't that pretty much what every concert is these days, though?

Richard 20:00

Rush is cheaper. I can get rush chip tickets cheaper than James Blunt, Brian.

Brian 20:06

Really?

Richard 20:06

Yeah, like I'm not being funny. Me and Mrs. R are gonna have to have a little bit of a conversation because Rush versus James Blunt, James Blunt's gonna win. But even like Justin Haywood, the singer of the moody blues, is touring. Like, he has got cast iron success through five decades, £75 a ticket. What gives James Blunt the right to charge £125? It is because his demographic can afford it.

Blake 20:35

It's because his demographic is willing to pay it. Yeah, I know, and I I hate them all. His demographic, I would argue, probably doesn't compare the two bands that you just suggested to James Blunt for ticket prices.

Brian 20:48

They're like, they're probably not saying, Do I do moody blues or James Blunt? Or rush. Or rush. Tough decision.

Blake 20:56

You know, I saw a video of a rush concert, and it wasn't of the concert itself, it was of the folks attending the concert. And you know, it looked exactly like a whole sea of what's on this podcast.

Richard 21:08

Yeah, I I could imagine that it would be quite shiny from from like Rose Ed. You would see nothing but the reflection of slightly balding men's heads.

Blake 21:19

There was a lot of there was a lot of uh yeah, like basically the exact demographic of this podcast. Yeah, okay. And us.

Richard 21:27

There is nothing wrong with that.

Blake 21:29

No, more power to him. I'm just saying James Blunt's crowd's gonna probably look different.

Richard 21:35

Mm mainly women of a certain age.

Blake 21:38

Yeah.

Richard 21:38

It's like just invert it. But I'm gonna have to sit through like I know two of his songs, and that's it. Like I I I may love music, but that sounds like that's going to be akin to torture.

Blake 21:53

I uh unfortunately uh no no shade to Mr. Blunt because he's far more successful than I. And he's very funny, by the way, on Twitter, now called X.

Richard 22:04

He's very funny. Okay, well, that's good. Oh, yeah. Even better.

Blake 22:07

He takes the Mickey out of himself constantly. Well, that makes me like him more. But I yeah, that song that I just um I don't like that song. So the song that I do, I don't care for.

Richard 22:19

And I'm going to be surrounded by lots of women singing it, and it fills me with actual dread. How am I gonna survive it? What's the strategy here, boys? Do you have earbuds you can put in?

Brian 22:30

Yeah, but listen to something else.

Richard 22:33

Yeah, I like it, Bri. I like it. Find a football match and just be sat there.

Brian 22:38

Put your noise cancelling on, listen to something else.

Richard 22:40

Man, that was a great Metallica concert I was at. Right when he's doing the soul format, I'm like, yes, two-one! And everyone turns around to look at me and they're like, sorry. Uh yeah, no, I like it, Bri. That'd be a good time for you to listen to Bob and Doug McKenzie. Yeah, it'd be a good time for me to develop a serious whiskey habit, too. Um, I'll be driving, unfortunately, so no. Oh, even worse. Yeah, the whole thing is is terrible. There is no no two ways of putting it. This is terrible for me. There's one good thing though.

Blake 23:13

I'll only have to ever do it. Because I just wouldn't do that. That that is what it's proving to me, is you're nicer than me.

Richard 23:20

Deserves everything. Uh, I would fly to the moon and back and bring her cheese if I could. Hold on, let's add that to the list of inventions for the book. Moon cheese. I think we're not the first people to invent moon cheese. Hey, do you realize in four years' time the jet engine is a hundred years old? That's insanity. What? In just four years? In the jet engine was invented in 1930. And it's four years away from 2030 as we record this, just to do the why'd you have to.

Brian 23:56

Would they do strap one to a horse or something?

Richard 23:58

No, they had cars then and planes. I know.

Blake 24:02

Chucky. Yeah. But also horses. But they also did strap it to a horse just cuz. Yeah. Just cause you could. Yeah, and because just cause you could. Uh-huh. Um hey Bob Lazar, he's strapping jet engines to cars. That's how he got known in the first place. Isn't that insane though?

Richard 24:18

That the jet engine is nearly a hundred years old. I'm I was kind of my mind was boggled. TV is a hundred years old this year. Did you know that? Television was invented in 1926, by John Logie Baird, Scottish man. That's his fault.

Brian 24:35

Fascinating. Tell tell me about this app thing that you're out of it.

Richard 24:40

That was a cold uh move on.

Brian 24:44

Wow. Yeah, enough about Jed Edges. Let's talk about guitar stuff. Yeah.

Richard 24:50

Oh, okay. Um, so well, the the headline kind of tells you everything you need to know there, Bri. I'll let you run with it.

Brian 24:57

So you say the apps are ruining guitar gear? This sounds like you had a bad experience.

Richard 25:01

I mean, I don't think the link is to an article I wrote, Bri.

Brian 25:05

Um I'm not looking at the link, I'm looking at the headline.

Richard 25:07

Then I suggest, you know, maybe that's where the issue is because I did not say this, but I might agree with it. I might actually agree with it. I there are arguments for and against this. I I use computers for work, and I have played computer games since I was eight. When I play guitar, and and I've kind of said this to you before, I want to play guitar, and I kind of want to switch off from my phone now more than anything. So I don't mind using my computer to set up my modeler, but then once it's set up, I disconnect it all and I'm just playing it like pedals. And I feel that sometimes where you have an app that sits in between you and the pedal, it ruins the experience. And like the the clearest way I can articulate this is if I'm setting up a pedal board and I've got it on my desk and I'm pressing the buttons, it just doesn't feel right until it's on the floor and I'm using my foot to press the buttons. Even though it's the exact same thing happening, the connection is not the same. I'm not as relaxed, I'm not playing the same. For one, I've got to take a hand off and hit a button. But I just like to keep it simple. And I do think like I really liked the TC electronic tone print technology in principle. I thought the idea of like beaming tones from your phone was a really neat idea, but in practice, I used my tone print pedal twice and then was like, I'm never using this again. I just it doesn't do it for me.

Blake 26:43

Yeah, I don't know if it's a uh just a guitar player thing, if maybe the next generation will feel differently, but I'm I'm with you. Like when I see, and we've got a great app you can control this pedal or amp or whatever. If I that doesn't sell it to me. I'm like, I don't really wanna have to do that. I'd like to just be able to to grab grab a hold of the controls and just tweak from there. You know, I'd I'd be more inclined even if the like device had a screen itself and I could like do things on there. I don't really wanna have to I don't want to have to.

Richard 27:20

See, that's interesting too. Because I also don't like big screens on on my devices, but they're getting bigger in my collection, and I'm like, maybe that's happening. But I think there's a I think there's a break point. Like if it's a pedal, I don't want to use an app. If it's a modeler and it's complicated, or it's maybe even like an amp or something like that, then I'm okay to have an app to configure it, as long as I don't need the app to dial in my settings ever. The minute you have to use an app, then I'm lost.

Blake 27:52

That's kind of what I'm saying. Like, even if I if I can't do the stuff on the unit itself, you you start to lose me a little bit. I just I don't want to have to hook it up to my computer. I don't want to have to hook it up to my phone. I want to be able to. If I can do that, that's okay. But I don't want to.

Richard 28:10

Right, as a bonus option, it's great. And like I said, with modelers, it it it it is like with modelers with MIDI switches, with amps, it's really useful to have that ability. But with pedals, is it is that just taking a bit too far?

Brian 28:24

Bri, what's your take on this? I mean, it's interesting. And I feel the same way. Like, I'm not big on not a big fan of like playing my guitar through my phone with some sort of app. But when it comes to like DAWs, it's kind of the opposite. As a hardware piece, they really don't do very well. No one wants a big mixing board with a little screen on it. They just throw it in logic or something, phone tools. So it's kind of it's interesting that when applied to something different in the music space, people feel completely different. So maybe the problem isn't with the app itself as a thing, maybe it's just what uh the app is comprised of. Yeah, maybe.

Richard 29:04

Let me throw you an example there from your DAW strand. Would a producer prefer to mix on Pro Tools using a mouse or using a control surface? Oh, control surface for sure, right? So I think that takes does some of the heavy lifting there. Like a DAW is more useful if you've got a control surface. But if you were forced, like have you ever used a control surface on an iPad? Like they're great and they're really fun. Like if you're at the drums and you could take your iPad over and you can adjust the volume, great, but it's still not that same tactile response.

Brian 29:39

Yeah, you want a button or a slider or something.

Richard 29:41

Yeah, you need hardware for some things, all right? Even if it's cheap hardware, it can give you more pleasure than expensive software.

Brian 29:50

Kind of like so maybe that's what the guitar app is doing wrong, then. Maybe there's just not a good enough piece of hardware to incorporate it with.

Richard 29:56

So, what you're saying is we need to now invent a new type of phone with a built-in like witch's hat knob on that. I mean, I'm not sure.

Brian 30:06

I was thinking more just like a piece of hardware they integrated with the app that would, you know, same same idea that uses with the control surface. I uh I think that's been done. Yeah, and again I don't know what it is, but I mean if if it if a control surface works better for some situations in music, then it just sounds like we haven't found the right place to apply that for guitar players.

Richard 30:30

But I think that's the problem. I think with a pedal, it's such a simple device. Like your typical pedal has no more than like five control surfaces you can affect. You just don't need an app to do that, right? It's quicker to use five knobs. So I think there is I think there's a ratio of knobs to app usage.

Blake 30:50

There's also the whole thing of, and this happens. I know nobody wants at the at the app app device-based companies want to talk about this necessarily, but like everyone has experienced uh it's not connecting. I'll shut it down, uh turn the Bluetooth on and off, like oh it's not it's uh it's not connecting, and now it's like now it's useless. Yeah, you know, or if it takes just even if you get it connected, but it take took you five minutes to get there, it's like I could have changed the settings 12 times with knobs in this time, you know.

Richard 31:21

Yeah, there is a technical issue. I will play Devil's Advocate though, and I'll say, you know, much like with the modular scenario, there's a lot to be said in a band scenario for saving your presets for having a patch for a song, so it's a one-knob selection and you're concentrating on playing the song, and the same could be true for you know pedals that were configured with apps. You could save, like, uh, this is my how to make it sound like I am actually playing Mr. Brightside miming setting, for example. Just saying, not that I would. Would anybody need that setting? Never. Okay, I didn't think so. The other suggestion was that I face the drummer whilst playing it, and then no one needs to see me pretend to mime. We just do it through the backing track.

Blake 32:09

But I'm not doing that either. Ah, if you just act like you're really into it and just grooving with the drummer.

Richard 32:13

But I think I I think the factor that makes apps useful is saving settings, and the factors that make them not useful are technical faffery, like Bluetooth not working, etc., and amount of time it takes to dial in a screen and and twiddle a virtual knob versus actually touching knobs.

Blake 32:37

Isn't it funny? This is a this is kind of just something that popped in my head. I recently just got the Brian Wampler specials, the uh Apple AirPod Pros. And after everybody telling me how wonderful they were, the Brian Wampler specials.

Brian 32:50

What?

Blake 32:50

How'd you derive there? Uh because you've been using them lately. You used to have over your headphones, you've been using the AirPods a lot lately.

Brian 32:59

I like these a lot better, yeah. They're really nice.

Blake 33:01

The hype is real. I was hesitant to spend that much money on earbuds, but I got them and I'm like, actually, these are pretty awesome. And where I'm going with that is I know it's an apple to apple thing, but isn't it incredible how well those wing things work and connect versus other Bluetooth devices?

Brian 33:18

It's in it's actually disappointing.

Blake 33:21

Every single time.

Brian 33:22

Yeah, it's it's so disappointing because I actually want a different brand. I'd rather I'd rather something that's specific for, you know, specifically for a great sound rather than the Apple, which is just supposed to be.

Richard 33:34

And it's not it is not universal because I've got two sets of beats by Dre wireless headphones. And the reason I like those, which are owned by Apple, and I'm gonna hold a pair, and you can see they have a wire and battery and buttons. And when you press the button to connect, one of three things will happen. It will connect, it will connect to something else, it will say it's connected, not connect to anything, and then drop its connection. And it's just so frustrating. But I've noticed with my Apple TV, like which I I watch Apple TV when I'm on the treadmill, and I'll put the headphones in, and straight away the Apple TV will go, I've detected your headphones, would you like me in? And every time it works. So it's got to be a software thing because if the TV can do it perfectly every time, but the phone doesn't, and I think it is to do with all the variables like is your phone locked? Is your phone in this mode and all of those things? Whereas I think the Apple headphones just like, no, I am the boss of this relationship. It does seem I don't care.

Blake 34:34

You you you open your phone, you flip open the case, and it just automatically knows it's time to work.

Richard 34:40

Yeah.

Blake 34:40

Make everything work that way. I should get some just this. What did we conclude on on apps? Are they ruining guitar gear? Not ruining it, but they don't make me care. Okay.

Brian 34:50

Yeah, there's not not there's never really been much that I've wanted to use that much as far as an app goes with guitar. I mean, and I even like with um you know, like neural DSP, for example, has some apps that you can use to get different presets. That's handy, but it's it it just doesn't seem like it it's that it doesn't make me want to use it over and over.

Blake 35:15

With the neural stuff, well, like this one in particular, the nano cortex. Like if you want to change the presets, you gotta hook it up to their software somehow.

Richard 35:24

Whether that's that what do you mean if you want to change the presets? If you want to change to a different preset.

Blake 35:30

Yeah, yeah. It's got some built in that it comes with a lot, actually. Okay. But if you want to add different ones, then you gotta connect it somehow. So I don't hate that. I think that's okay. But it's just like uh, you know, fully but what they have in the image of this article here is kind of what I don't like. Like, okay, that's how you that's how you switch everything. I'll at least with this, like, okay, once I get the preset in, I have all these knobs to adjust that preset. Um, I think that's a good one.

Richard 36:00

Yeah, which isn't too bad. I mean, I would say this show me the man that hates setting up presets on a computer, and I'll show you the man that has named 35 different banks on a boss ES8 with a single character scroll wheel function that takes you like three minutes to go from A to zero. So, yeah, uh I I I don't mind computer apps for that.

Blake 36:26

You could also show I could also show you the same man who hates both of those things. Yeah, it's right here.

Richard 36:32

Yeah, okay, fair enough.

Blake 36:34

Uh good. So we concluded uh sometimes necessary, but not necessarily an attractive feature. Is that how where we're at with it? Sure.

Richard 36:45

I think I am uh not for pedals. I I don't want to use an app for a pedal. Do I want to use it for a modeler, an amp, a power amp? Yes. Do I want to use it for an actual single pedal? It's a gimmick for me.

Brian 37:03

Yeah, it's fun, but it's a gimmick. Do you think that maybe a younger demographic or maybe even more of a beginner slanted demographic would enjoy it more? Maybe it's just for a different player.

Richard 37:14

Maybe I I I would have normally gone, yeah, you're right, Bright. I am the old man and I'm just stuck in my ways. But actually, more and more younger players that I'm talking to are the uh exact, like they're more analog than me. They're literally like, yeah, they're like, I just want to buy, and and they're buying like boss pedals because that's that's true.

Brian 37:35

I have seen the the uh a younger group of people like start buying tapes and stuff again, which we talked about this on another episode.

Blake 37:43

What's really interesting is the folks that grew up with this stuff, like I didn't grow up with this stuff. People think I did, but I didn't. I still remember rotary phones, like I did not grow up with all this stuff. But the kids that truly did, the kids that were born in the 2000s, a lot of them seem to be going, like, cool, I spent uh all my time on this thing, and yeah, I'm gonna still use it, but they seem to be leaning that way, like buying older cars, buying analog gear if they're playing guitar.

Richard 38:17

Like they really seem to be slanting that direction, and I well, this is it, yeah, I'm for it, but there's a r I saw a really interesting like boomer comment from a famous uh again sports journalist, and he said, and he was talking about music, and he said, All modern music is basically either unlistenable or acts that are cosplaying acts from the 70s and 80s. And whilst I thought you're just a boomer, I also thought, kind of if you think about some of the like Greta Van fleets of this world, there is a little bit of a cosplay thing going on, and it is a little bit lacking in originality, some might say. And I wonder if that is a thing amongst a particular demographic. We live in a cosplay generation, like when I grew up, you stopped dressing up after the village fate. There's one time a year in summer where you would dress as a Mr. Man for the village fate, and that's the only time anybody dressed up. But now Brian, do you know what he's talking about?

Brian 39:17

What in the hell is a village fate?

Richard 39:20

Yeah, and what's he talking about?

Brian 39:22

You'll be telling me next.

Richard 39:24

You'll be telling me next you've never danced Widdishins around a Maypole, Brian.

Blake 39:31

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The last movie I saw that had a may pole and it involved a blood eagle at some point.

Brian 39:36

I don't think uh we've seen movies, I've seen movies that involve poles, but it wasn't a maypole.

Blake 39:42

A Maype. Well I'm saying is roasted Mayle. Now we're talking.

Richard 39:46

There was a time when dressing in fancy dress was for Halloween and for a special occasion. Now it's a full-time hobby, and I think that that has extended a bit into music. I think people are setting their bands up. Like look at Castle Rat, for example. I really love what they're doing, they have a kind of Dungeons and Dragons aesthetic, but the aesthetic is more important than the music, potentially. Look at Angine De Potrine. If they didn't look like two idiots wearing upside down like um table lamps, would they have got into our attention? So the image is is more important than ever now.

Blake 40:32

Interdasting.

Brian 40:36

Yeah, I've got nothing to add there. Well, thanks.

Blake 40:40

It's been a pleasure and good night.

Brian 40:42

I agree. How about that?

Blake 40:43

You know, you're right though, Richard. Now there's I like Castle Rat too, they're quite good. But some of them are Castle Rat is either. It's like a like a fantasy themed metal band, basically. It's great stuff. Um, but some of the most successful acts of the last few years have been costumed bands. Sleep token, uh, ghost, smoke knot, obviously one of the biggest bands in the world. It's interesting that and I think it is, it's like we're being bombarded with so much stuff. You need if you just see an a person playing a guitar, it's like, yeah, there's a person playing guitar, we we know what that is. Yeah, but if you see a monster playing a guitar, it's like, oh, what's that? But I think that's gone so far.

Richard 41:27

There's a ton of far now that people are cosplaying 70s rock bands again, and they're coming out again. Look at what Greta Van Vliet played. Look at what was that other band with honey in it? Dirty Honey. Look at how they kind of look. Look at some of these kind of new rock bands, and they're dressing, you know, like a classic 70s rock band would have done. And I don't think it's just because good fashion never goes out of fashion. I think it is, you know, it's the image, it's it's it's partly the thing. And I think I can see in the next 20 years more cosplaying in rock and roll. I can see younger bands going further to cultivate an image that looks hip.

Blake 42:13

Hey, dress for the job you want, not the job you have, baby.

Richard 42:18

Mm-hmm.

Blake 42:19

Okay, I'm gonna go and put my spacesuit on in that case. That's why I am dressed like a millennial dad.

Richard 42:31

That was one of Seth's uh McFarland's worst cartoons, wasn't it? Um a very weird little musical thing happened to me this week. I was watching the uh that pedal show. I was watching the episode where they had Matt Berry on it. Um, Brian, you're probably not familiar with Matt Berry, but he is a musician and a voiceover actor and a comedian.

Blake 42:52

He is not just a voiceover actor. It's the easiest way of selling it too. Very popular comedic actor.

Richard 42:59

He's you'd recognize him, and he is a great musician. And he was on uh that pedal show a a while back. He's got really interesting taste, and he turned me on to an album called The History of Melody Nelson by Serge Gainsborough, right? Now, I wouldn't raise this except for one really interesting production point. Now, Brian, this is an album of well, two interesting production points. It's an album of hipster music from the 70s with a man in French half rapping in French, just talking. Are you familiar with the song Je t'aime from the 70s? Nope. Nope. Come off it. You must have heard the song Je t'em Serge Gainsborough.

Brian 43:41

Was it a Daken or George Lynch or Lynch Mobs? I can't believe you've not heard that song.

Richard 43:45

That's almost as bad as that's almost as bad as I've got a blister on me finger, a governor. I don't think it is. Oh, it is Jatem's one of the biggest songs of its era. It's probably one of the only famous French language songs. I don't know how to say it. What? Yeah, be careful how you say it. Juice Tem. Juice Tim? Je t'em. Okay. Anyway, Melody Nelson, this album, it's actually between an EP and album, it's about 30 minutes long. What's cool about it is one, some of the grooviest music I've heard for a while. And you think it's loads of cool French cats playing the music. It's not. It's British session musicians all smoking cigarettes and just cranking it out in the heat of London, and it sounds brilliant. Um, the way they recorded the bass spray. Uh and it's a technique that I'm gonna use. Basically, they cut all of the bass from the bass whilst recording it, so got a very high-end trebley bass sound, and added all the bass back into the final mix, and what that does is it gives you the most punchy sounding bass possible. It changes. Let me see if you understand. So you have a bass. You're miting your bass amp basically with the bass control rolled right off and the treble rolled right up. Okay, you're taking that into a mixing discussion as a track, and then you're using the EQ on your mixing disc to add more bass back in.

Brian 45:20

So you're not playing the track again.

Richard 45:22

No, you're just mixing more bass EQ in.

Brian 45:26

If it's the same exact track though, how is that different? Is it because it's post-effects versus pre-effects? I I'm gonna use the word magic here because that's all I can hear, right? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Richard 45:38

Yeah, I'm confused too.

Blake 45:40

I mean, again, it's magic. They added bass back in using synths? No, just the EQ.

Richard 45:48

Just took it took in a high high EQ track and EQ'd it with lower EQ, maybe doubled it up as well. And maybe they also added a uh another recording of it at a uh kind of low setting and mixed the two. And this when was this recorded? 1971.

Blake 46:06

So in my brain, they would they would have they would have printed that to the tape and then ran.

Richard 46:12

Run it through an SSL console and just whack the bass control the the shelf up. Back up probably. Yeah, interesting. And as I say, the result is a really nice sounding bass. It's like nothing you've heard. It's almost like a guitar, but it's not.

Brian 46:27

I was gonna say there's another problem that happens when you do that, though, because if you once you print that track and you take out the bass, you can't really boost that up. You can only boost what's there, which is going to be a completely different sound. I think that's what he's describing.

Richard 46:40

That is why it sounds so unique because it's not giving you that kind of smooth bass sound, it's giving you a really percussive bass sound.

Brian 46:48

Yeah, that would be much more like a baritone or something.

Richard 46:51

Yeah, much more like a baritone, but it's still very clearly a bass register. So it it it's a really neat technique, and it's one that Matt Berry had tried to replicate in some of his songs, and it's what Mick and Dan were kind of picking apart was like, How did you get this bass sound? And what in influenced you in is like Serge Gainsborough Melody Nelson. That was my influence. And the minute I heard the track, I was like, Yeah, I hear it. Because it when you hear the track, it shouldn't work. It's like this sounds almost like this was recorded in a jazz club, even though it's a studio recording, but that's what adds to it, and again, it's one of those where it's the information between the ones and zeros that's where the gold lives in an analogue recording. It's those little bits of nuance that's what give you a real kind of different sound, and and it makes your ears excited.

Blake 47:46

It's an interesting one. I kind of want to try it.

Richard 47:48

Sounds like I thought of both of you guys when I heard the technique, I was like, that's unusual and worth experimenting with.

Blake 47:57

Yeah, and uh, and it'd be fun because I'd have to how I would do that in the modern sense is I'd have to print the bass track, export the wave file, bring it back in, and mess with it from there. That would be how you do it.

Richard 48:11

I mean, you there's all kinds of ways you'd do it with plugins these days as well, for sure. But I just I love hearing tricks like that that were used. And again, it goes back to the whole option paralysis of of Pro Tools and Logic right now. You can just do anything, but when you can't do anything, when you've only got eight tracks to record to or four tracks, that's when you become super creative with these sort of things.

Blake 48:34

Makes me wonder um how they came up with that. How did you think to do it? It almost sounds like an accident. Like, oops, we accidentally recorded the bass with all the bass frequencies gone. Uh, let's try to bring them back, I guess. Maybe, yeah. It was something like that, most likely.

Brian 48:53

Whoops, didn't mean to do that. I wonder if we can just EQ that back in.

Blake 48:56

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it sounds pretty cool, actually. Let's go with that. That totally sounds like a happy accident. I love that kind of stuff. I don't know if it was. Maybe they did it on purpose, but it doesn't sound like something that they did on purpose.

Richard 49:06

Again, you know, when when you couldn't go, oh, I just saw this brilliant new plug in, let's try that. It was like, hmm, let's try doubling the bass up with two different bass guitars. And that's how you get a particular sound. So yeah. It's uh definitely interesting. Great record, but Bri, you have to have at least a conversational understanding of French to understand the words. So I'm not sure it's it's quite your music, but the production technique's insane. My wife says it sounds creepy.

Blake 49:38

Probably creepier than what James Blunt sounds like. Uh is that even possible? But you know who's not creepy? Me. Well, you're a little creepy, but our wonderful executive producers are not creepy. They're definitely not creepy. No.

Brian 49:54

And you can't say they're all not creepy. There might be a couple on there.

Richard 49:57

You can say what you want, Bri, but we're gonna say they're not creepy.

Brian 50:00

I'm gonna say I know I know a few of a few of them personally, and they can be they can be a little creepy.

Blake 50:06

Well, I mean, the season is approaching. The best time of the year is approaching. So maybe we could all get a little creepy come October, you know?

Richard 50:14

Oh man, I wish I could do like a really good Vincent Price voice to read these out in, but I can't. So uh, shall I read them out? Go for it. All right, so a huge, magnificent thank you to Bill Bays, Andrew Adkins, David Tyndall, Dave Trombetty, Eric Wilson, Vidal Frostad, Michael Freer, Sean Arbo of Gunshre Wiring, Rick Calhoun of Honey Picks, Patrice Fournay's Dylan Talks Tone, Missouri Electrical Box Company, Kevin Harrington, Barry from Grey's Guitars, Tom Kelly, Jake Young of the Man the Helm Podcast, Pigsy, John O'Neill, Robert Carr, Hunter Hudson, Rob Stokes, Nick Spano, Sasha Sir, Jay Stratton, Harry Post, Grumpy Mike, Harvey Pedles, Allison Carroll, Bum Laser, Anthony Stevens, Atta plays guitar, Philip Carter of the 40Watt Podcast, Christopher Logan, Jason Engelhart, Dylan Lewis of Leeward Sound, Josh, James Thompson, Colin Little, John Machete of Odin, Derek Lyons, Darth Bagel, Dustin Romero, The Wizard of Woz, Crappy Tom, Bud Coles, Mechanically Assisted Ponytail, DJ Farnes, Kyle Viana, Robert Hahn, John Hill, Nick Cole, Kyle Ray, your face, Dave Evangelista of the Guitar Bads Podcast, Roxy Gwynn, Derek Howe, Churchill from Cam Girls Plus, Ross Edwards, William Price.

Brian 51:31

All right, we'll talk to you next week. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to the Chasing Tone Podcast. If you have any comments, questions, or concerns, shoot me an email at podcast at womperpedals.com and I'll personally get your email. You can reach Blake at infotone mob.com. Richard is Richard at WamperPedals.com. If you want to support the show, the easiest and free way is just to share this episode with a friend, leave a rating and review wherever you listen. Helps more than you know. Be sure to check out Blake's other podcast called the Tone Mob for even more guitar topics. If you love pedals, of course, check out wamplerpedals.com. If you're curious about designing and building your own guitar pedals, head over to guitarpedal course.com for step by step courses. And for bonus content, behind the scene discussions, and extra fun ideas, join us on patreon.com slash chastingtone podcast. Thanks again, and we'll talk to you next week.