What Does a Good Technical Proposal Look Like?

In this episode we’re tackling one of the biggest determinants of success in Defence procurement - how to craft a compelling, credible, and competitive technical proposal. In other words, what separates the bids that win from the ones that don’t.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

So hi, I'm Stu Alden.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

And I'm Georgina Wilson Aylarra. And together we present Advanced a Contract, the podcast series where we explore how SMEs can break into, engage with, and secure contracts in the UK defence sector.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

So join us as we share insights, strategies, and real-world experiences to help you navigate this very complex uh but at the same time rewarding market. Welcome back to Advanced to Contract, the podcast that helps innovative engineering and technology businesses navigate the defence sector and most importantly wing work. I'm Stu, and with me is Georgina. Hi, Georgina.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Hi Stu. Hi everyone. So today we're tackling one of the biggest challenges but slash the biggest success determinants, which is how or what is a good proposal and what a good proposal looks like.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So we're going to talk about both proposals to the MOD and also to primes as well for SMEs, yeah?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Yep. I guess from your perspective and experience, what does a good proposal look like? Or what does good look like in defence? Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I and I think that's that's quite key to to actually have the the sector aspect to it because there's there's some differences in in working across sectors as as as you and I know. Um I think you start with the basics really. So the headlines are that um the bid needs to be easy to follow. So uh put yourself in the the seat of the the reader. So uh clarity, um structure, so it's easy to follow and easy to follow against uh the requirement or the questions that have been set uh for you to answer. Um and also that you are constantly referring back to those requirements and those questions so that um the the like I say, the reader can understand uh what you're trying to get across to what he's uh he or her has set for you. Um and also uh I think we've talked about it pre in previous podcasts, it's evidence uh back to that again. So how can you back up your claims that you are putting in your bid uh with facts and figures?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yep. I think when we've worked together, we say there's the three C's, don't we? The credibility, compelling, and what was the third? Help me out.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I've lost it there. Clear.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Clear.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Clear, compelling, credible.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Excellent. So we got there at the competitive.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

It is it is Friday after all. It is Friday.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Okay, yeah, ex yeah. I mean it it it for anyone who's read a bid, um you need to be able to uh get through it, you need to understand it, uh, and you need to make sure that they're answering the question. It's it it's as simple as that. And and it it you know while whilst it might sound very uh very clear, some people don't answer the question and and they'll they'll they'll miss stuff out.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah, I feel like they answer the question they think is there, isn't it? They want to answer.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah, so don't try and shoehorn in your solution into uh a bid that that's come across. So we said right at the beginning of that question, you know, for defence specifically. So from your experience in um working across a number of different sectors in in capture management, what differentiates bids in this sector from others, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 3:38

So for me, it's working beyond, as you touched on, beyond that written requirement. And sometimes we don't have the requirement, do we? It's it's a case of where we have to assume what that requirement is. So I guess de depending, and we see this in defence quite often, where especially in the early market engagement phase, where the customer might know the outcomes they're looking for, but they don't yet have the requirements and they're looking to industry to like develop those. Right. So I'd say it all comes back to the requirements or the assumed requirements that we're like helping to develop as part of the procurement.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

And we touched on in the previous um episode about capture planning and capture management.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

That's that's obviously going to play a key role here because if you're starting from scratch and just seeing something come out on a on a framework or a portal and you haven't engaged with the with the end client or understood what they're trying to do, or have individuals within your organisation that have worked uh for the client, then that must be quite difficult.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yes, it is, yeah, it's difficult. Yeah, I think we always say, I think from an idealistic point of view, we always say if you haven't heard about it, knew about it, then don't bid. But I think that's from my personal views, that's always quite a negative or an idealistic way. So actually you can still, as you'll have found, you can still win work if it's off the portal. But I think it's maybe a lower win rate or overall effectiveness because it would be better if you'd known about it before. So you know, I've worked in some companies where if you hadn't got you know awareness of the RFP, that it would just be a no-bid straight away. Okay. Um, but then on the other flip side, in a period of growth um or you know, r where resources are less, we still have to you know build our bidding capability and to do that, it could just start on the portal. Okay. So it's still about that being a focused effort rather than just saying, oh well, I don't know about it, and that means I'm not going to win. Just being aware that it might reduce our chances of winning. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

So that's the importance of looking beyond uh the opportunity. Yes. Basically. So trying to predict forward. Like you say, especially in defence, which is quite difficult because they say what's going on and it's such a noisy uh environment in terms of lots lots uh lots going on. You need to be almost predicting what's coming down the track. Yeah. And I think we'll touch on how we how we do that in a bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Um we touched on evidence uh as a as a key key aspect of of the bid. What sort of evidence do you would would uh would a reader be looking for?

SPEAKER_02 6:14

So for me it comes down to like there are it's I guess evidence of delivery, isn't it, and giving the evaluator, whoever that is, if it's a formal procurement or private sector, where whoever is assessing or receiving the proposal, making it easy for them to say yes. Okay. Um that effectively. And there are mechanisms to help create a proposal which gets the evaluator to say yes. Uh, one of those being that win strategy slash win theme workshops. Um, so for me, these are mechanisms which can help teams develop proposals that result in more proof, more trust, more confidence so that the evaluator says yes. Um these can be scalable, you know. We've touched on in the past, you know, you've got a task order um off a framework. Is a win strategy workshop still needed? So my view is yes, the principle of it or the spirit of a win strategy workshop is, but of course, that can be um a 30-minute sprint session running through looking at the customer, what we know about the customer, what our solution is and what the competitor is, and then out comes the key win win theme threads that will go into the proposal. Okay. Um, and then that will range straight through to when we're looking at uh like a strategic opportunity, new customer, you know, maybe multi-million pound deal, where that win strategy workshop can go into days and be attended by 16, 20 people for more different parts of you know the problem, the user community to develop that win strategy. So it really is scalable. We could, you know, I've even run win strategy sessions on email. It might not be ideal, but in a situation where resources are low, timing's low, bid budgets are low, you know, it's about the the principle of getting that win strategy. How are we going to win this bid or the deal? Um, how are we going to create a proposal that gets under those customer, you know, to demonstrate understanding of the customer needs?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

So you so the the win themes yourselves, what are you trying to extract from your team to understand how to best position yourself to get the contract? What are what are those core elements of those win themes?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Ideally, and what is fully exciting is when those win themes link back to a customer pain point, we could call them hot buttons, pain points, worry areas, what makes them wake up at night. So the the most effective win theme, in my view, has that customer problem, how our solution is addressing that, and then even better when it's then positioned against a c competition. So if I if we know a competitor might approach it in X way, our win theme will overcome that as well. It doesn't have to do all those three things, but the you know again, it's all about scalabilism, it's not only about the ideal. We we can work uh just having a good win theme of we're going to be a smart supplier and be flexible is good enough. But then if we can link that back to how the competitor might not be able to, then that's like even better.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

So I guess what you're trying to do is read between the lines of the of the requirement of the RFP or uh you know the ITT or whatever. Um and again put yourself in the in the shoes of the reader to say, well, we've asked you this question, but do you really understand what I'm asking and and what I'm looking for you to deliver? Yeah. So if you go beyond uh and think beyond the question, that's when you're saying that you think you've got a better chance of of winning. You're not just literally answering the question. Yeah. You're you're you're putting yourself in the shoes of the customer.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

In the shoes of the customer, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that and so that win strategy win theme workshop is one of those mechanisms to help in that. Um we've heard about the storyboards. Yeah. Again, so that's another mechanism to just talk talk us through storyboards, then. So a storyboard is a tool that helps writers or the author, again, varying degrees of I guess like what a proposal team looks like. But it's basically a planning tool that converts the win theme, win strategy, all that customer intel, all that good stuff into how it can be translated into the proposal. And it can range from a bullet point list, so just a plan, you know, as we would do for writing any documentation, uh, right the way through to maybe a few page document per question response of a tender. So again, it depends on what we're doing. Um again, I've seen in teams where it you know you're pressured for time, you just want to get going, and then the storyboard is skipped, seen as a burden when actually it's it is an enabler if it's used properly or seen as something that's you're setting out almost like the the titles or the headings of each of the individual areas that you want to cover in the bid. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

And not necessarily doing that detailed activity, but structuring the bid such that you know that it relates to the question being asked. Yes. Because I think like you said, uh if you just start writing, you can go off in a tangent and a different direction and probably end up not answering all the questions. You you need to be able to make sure you've got those those headings that align. And then I guess also you can start to task individuals to look at different areas of those that are that bid as well, is that?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Yeah, exactly. That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

And then in I guess an ideal or even better position is if those then those win themes are plotted into those header headings. So then it's a clear link. Um, and maybe if we've got case studies that then link to those areas, we can put that in the story. Not the content, but just a note to say we will be doing a story over the code.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

And what about people talk about marking guides as well? Because you've got a scoring matrix for most bids that you get um public or uh or or B2B, uh they'll they'll kind of tell you how they're gonna mark that bid, you know, 20% for price or 75% for for technical uh offer. Um how how do you then align those the those win themes and the and your structure of the bid with that marking guide? Or some top tips there that you can.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

So the first one really is to prioritize according to that. So I think especially if we've got limited time and I guess effort, I guess the best don't spend lots of time on the 20% exactly do it on the 80%. Yeah, so that's one thing. And then also, secondly, is good to understand why do we think the customers put it in that angle can help to then underpin some of the question responses we do. Um in the storyboard, if we have got the evaluation criteria, it's also possible to put that in there. And then also to use that evaluation criteria in the review process so that you can look at it from that angle. Uh depends, doesn't it? Because sometimes the evaluation has a bit of detail and sometimes it's just uh one liner, which makes it difficult to interpret. But yeah, I think those are like the three key things to use that evaluation.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

And people talk about boilerplate as well in terms of stuff that you not not repeat and cut and paste, but um you've got prior material that you can utilize to to input. What's your thoughts on boilerplate? Does that does that save time or does it cause more time to change existing text? You know, what's what's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

It's very it's a very good point, Stu. You triggered a memory from when I first started.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Not not a not a traumatic well I think.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

No, no, it's not too traumatic. It's just when you look back and you think goodness. It's when I first was started my Korean bidding and there was a bid for Greg's university operating in the banking and finance sector.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

And that was as a result of using boilerplate template, where it was, as you just said, it's just copy and paste, and there was no thought given to, you know. Okay. So I think when used well, boilerplates are really good, you know, in terms of this 80-20 we we've spoken about. Um but again, it's good if it's only the base, maybe the baseline is there from the boilerplate. Yeah. And then you build on it.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Build on it, yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

And if those if there's like some signposts, and so I've had feedback in the past where I've created some boilerplate material and it's sign asked questions to ask the authors to think about things from a customer perspective.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

So it just it gives a really good basis, but it's a good prompt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

So I think boilerplates work very well. Yeah. Um, it's just a case of yes, just not a copy and paste, as you said, because like I say, that doesn't always work well.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

And what's your sorry, we're we're we're we're we're going totally off scripts here, but that's that's exactly what we're all about. Yeah, of course. Yeah. What what's your thoughts on AI in bidding? So so you know, you talked about uh prompts and and and things like that. Uh a lot of people say, well, I'll just put it into AI and and it will just it will just throw out the right answer. But have you what's your experience in use of AI with bidding and and how potentially useful it is or you know, or some of the pitfalls.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

I think it's I'm starting a journey myself with getting to know AI and its benefits and things. I think I've used it very well when we're so I guess competitor analysis, which is I guess a bit off thing, but still relevant to like what we're talking about here. Um in the absence of time and people to sit around the room to do some brainstorming on the competitor. Um I've used Chat GBT to wear the hat of a competitor and say, how would you operate in this or how would a competitor do this, you know that type of thing. So it's been very good at doing that, because what's in the public domain bringing that. That's so that's been one way.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

So almost using it as a research agent, basically, market intelligence, that sort of life.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Exactly, yeah. I've also seen it used well when there's like a red, I guess our red team stuff that we will come on to, um, being able to look at so if there's again around privacy and data management and all those things, but which are key in key in most most sectors, but especially in defence. Yeah, exactly, especially now, but as long as all that compliance is there and we can use AI for a red review, um have you I've seen it work well for I guess expedite and a quicker update post-red review. So we've had a red review, you know, we've got the output from how things can be improved and it will help to structure that. So instead of it being overwhelming when you come out of a workshop on that, it makes it more easy to so it's I think it's quite impressive on how it consolidates information, isn't it, and data. Have you found that?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah, absolutely. We've we've been using it for for a while, but it it does need that sense check. Yes. Um and it it it can't be I don't think it replaces the experience of of a of a bid writer and someone with that knowledge of the sector, yeah. It might speed up the ability in order to to to undertake the bid uh process, but it still needs that individual to sense check it against what they know. Um because it it it's just going out there and finding information on the web, isn't it? It's not not necessarily um thinking in the way that you would perhaps think.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

And yeah, uh, smart but not not fully there. Yeah, exactly. Well, and it's amazing how it's it's developed even over the last year to 18 months. We we use it uh a lot. Um maybe maybe that's another maybe that's another topic. AI in defence.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

Yeah, let's hear we could put that out to our community, can't we? Absolutely. Interested to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Um we're we're looking for for guests to come on. We are, yeah. So so maybe we do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

You you touched on red reviews. Um so can you talk us through? I mean, there's there's black reviews, there's red reviews. I I'm not totally over it. What's the what what's the sort of um theme there and what what are they for? What are these reviews for?

SPEAKER_02 18:09

So again, fully scalable. Uh so I see this as being another one of those mechanisms for helping propo proposals become or being able to demonstrate understanding of the customer needs. Uh it's another one of those mechanisms. So the red review, I suppose we should really start with a pink review. Uh so the pink review we'll get around the rainbow soon, Stu, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Is there pink in the rainbow? Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

TV C so the reviews are, I guess, the governance stages, again, fully scalable, so done by email, workshop, meeting, in person.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

So who's it who's involved in these reviews? Is it inside the the organization? Do you get externals in?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Uh what was so yeah, in I'd say internal people, um, stakeholders from various functions. So they've worked best again, if the opportunity you know needs it or benefits from that, if it's a strategic opportunity, then yeah, I'd say bringing in different functions to look at things from basically different customer hats. Okay. Ideally. But so the pink review, for example, at what pro the proposal we've done the storyboard, we've had a kickoff, it's now 25% um drafted. The pink review's main purpose is to check that we're on track to achieving you know the response that we're looking for, you know, in terms of like the win theme demonstration, um, answering the questions, compliance, all those things. Right. Um and yeah, so that can be done by a bid manager or a senior um per sponsor of the opportunity. It's great to bring in a salesperson or one person wearing all those hats. I think it's important sometimes to look at roles, isn't it? Yeah. In addition to like all the because we can all wear different hats. Yeah. Uh so that's the pink review. You know, it's it's also, again, as I said, scalable, so it can be used for a full-on technical proposal. But another way I've seen it work well is on like a framework opportunity, and there's a use for CVs. The CVs are just as important, as you know, in the part of the submission can make or break it. So let's review the CV before it's fully completed so we can make sure it you know demonstrates all the you've got the right person. Yeah, the right person. So again, it's preventing last minute things being picked up down the line. Um so yeah, we do all that, take that away. And then we come to the red review, which is almost 90% complete. And the really main purpose is to get an independent person to review that against the capture material or win strategy plan, win themes, whatever that looks like in that form. So that's for one thing. Then secondly, to review that against the evaluation criteria, wearing the evaluator's hat, if that's the case, um if we've got that, or um, it's good to know we can assume that evaluation criteria, can't we? Even if we don't have it from the customer, we can still say, well, what is important to the customer and make that up ourselves if we haven't got it just to direct things. Uh, and then thirdly, from a company point of view, is this all aligned and you know, for what we want to put out there? Because at the end of the day, the more from a strategic level of the company. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So red review from that point of view. Um, and then updates, you know, take that away, updates, and then we'd usually probably do a gold review or white glove.

unknown 21:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Well, where did the white glove come from?

unknown 21:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

Um and the white glove is back in the days when it was those, if you remember those proposals of a page turn paper, you know, in the full. Yeah. We've not had those for a while, have we? It's all digital. Yeah, digital. So you can't really do a white glove. Okay. But yeah. It's now a gold review. Yes, a gold review. That's good. Yeah, and that's just an executive sign off effectively.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Um that's interesting. Uh lots of different colours then. So many different colours. Excellent. I think it's

SPEAKER_02 22:00

So it can be so overwhelming, can't it? And that's why I always encourage teams to look at well, what are the principles and the objectives of those and like work with that.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Because otherwise I think it can get quite overwhelming.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

And and also you don't have to follow that all the time. But exactly I think the main principle is having externals to come in at at various stages within your bid process to make sure you're still on track and following it. Because we all know that when we get into the detail of the document, we get a bit word blind and we don't, you know, don't see the wood for the trees, so to speak. So it's always good to have that external to come in. You also talked about different hats, customer hats there. Um I think one thing uh that I've seen is that bids get separated when they go into the customer. And you know, one section might be marked by a commercial individual, one section might be marked by a technical individual, um, and and they don't see each other's sections.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

So um I think it's important to make sure that you understand that it's not all going to be read. The bid isn't gonna be probably read in its entirety. Is that is that fair to for us to say?

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah, definitely. I think it's a really important point to raise, isn't it? Because I think quite often authors think, oh well, it's in the whole document, it's in the whole proposal. Yeah. Whereas actually it's better if it's like you said it's repeated through. Yeah, as far as possible, given like the word document uh or the word count. Word count and things. Okay. But yeah, I guess like the main sentiments of it. I think we could use an executive summary to bring all that together if that's allowed. Various had creative ways of trying to get an executive summary in.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Um you want to make sure that both of those readers, whilst one will be focused on technical, one will be focused on commercial, that they get the the holistic view of what you're trying to offer.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Um so therefore there may be some repetition in across of those areas, but uh but you want to do it for uh for marking perspectives.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

I think it comes back to that storyboard use, isn't it? Because that can help to structure that so that those key messages or key value things are there to tick off. Yes. That's good to point Trey's that.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

So let's let's get on to a another topic of compliance. Yes. So um in terms of what what do we mean or what do we mean by compliance? You know, we we say that um compliance is really key for for bids uh and some bids are thrown out because they are non-compliant. But but what do we what do we mean by compliance?

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Well to me, that is it can be funny, different dimensions, can't it? So you have a compliance of the bidder response of the document, making sure everything's been included and attached in the right structure. So that for me I would call like a response requirements for the tender. But then there's also the compliance from a customer point of view, isn't it, in terms of how do our or how does our solution meet the customer's compliance. So whether that I guess could start in the requirements set if we've got those, but then also needs to come through into how do those requirements become activities in our proposal, and then how do those activities become built up into a program? So ideally that's like the ultimate compliance, isn't it, when we can show show that link. Um so I think that's a compliance from that side. And I think probably thirdly is compliance from our business perspective. So the entity bidding, yeah. How are we compliant to our governance process and making sure it's a winnable, deliverable piece of work and there's like export, all those other things? Do you would you agree with those?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah, I think I'd probably add um the fact of there's a lot of um yes-no questions in a bid as to whether you you have got a certain accreditation or um you know you you've got a quality management system, your ISO 9001, you've got cyber essentials.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

So some of the compliance issues can be quite simple in terms of tick, yes, I have that. But I have seen bids where people go, you know, people forget the simple things and don't put them in and they get thrown out because they haven't done it. Um I guess that comes back to the the benefit of having an external review that uh sorry, uh an external person to the bid team review that to make sure that um you you've you've ticked those boxes. Yes. Um because we quite often see in marking schemes that it's a it's a a go-no-go uh uh sort of criteria right at the beginning because someone will be given the the whole proposal to to say, right, just go through that and make sure they're they're fully compliant with these aspects before we then hand them out to our to our individual um uh markers and reviewers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

So it takes quite an understanding customer, doesn't it, to let that go and give you the opportunity to follow up to respond. And if you're on the portal sometimes, that's even more of a point.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

We haven't even touched portals yet, because you have to write it in one document and then cut it up and put it onto a portal and make sure it it it meets the word count. Yes. Um so uh in terms of a compliance matrix, then um what what again, what do we mean by that compliance matrix? I think we referred to it in a in a previous episode. Um it's a tool that allows you to make sure you've answered those questions, is it, isn't it? How how have you used compliance matrices before?

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yes, definitely for me it's a good practice to put that in even if it's not called for by the customer. Because I think it encourages it's I think it's beneficial for the delivery teams in the bidding entity to work through all that. Because when you work through that, then it just gives that, as we talk on deliverability, confidence, trust. If you've gone through that and you know, put that into the activity list, put that into your schedule, developed assumptions from it and all those good things, it just shines wonders, doesn't it, on the proposal because it's there's no cracks, there's no risks left open. Um so I think the compliance matrix has its an important place from that angle. Um and again, if it's asked for by the customer, you said that's it's a make or break, it's needed. Um that's that the one angle. I think there's also the bidder compliance matrix, which is helpful. So I think it's worked well when uh even if it's not asked for in some form of the you know part of the proposal, there'll be this is what you've asked for, and this is you know, we've demonstrated that. This is where it is in the process. Exactly. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

So I think that's great to I've seen that before as well. Yeah. I think that was what I referred to previously about one of these pull-out pages at the back.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

You kind of double up the page and pull it and have an A3 page at the back and you and you pull it out, and then uh the bidder can just literally you make their life easy. So much so much easy, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I think that's what we're trying to do with putting a bid in is make life easy. Yeah. Um we all know when we've we've sort of had things to read through, if it if it makes your life easy, then you'll you'll be more likely to market higher.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I remember very early on I'd the privilege, I'll call it that, of going to some events that were on the procurement site, you know, the SIPS events. And there was one opportunity where the I was sat on a table with evaluators. Uh so we had a chance of exchange of what looks good and it was exactly that that you just mentioned, that page. But again, it was back in the day when we had paper proposals.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah, you can't do it on a on a screen. Well, maybe you can.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

You can in a way, but yeah, it's still not. But yeah, it's just so it just makes uh as you said, the evaluator sort of.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

So we still ask for a paper copy and a hard copy these days. I've not seen that. No, no, okay, it's all it's all sort of submitted by heart. Maybe that's a I'm showing my age. I'm showing my age. Yeah, yeah, it's a good idea. Love to hear from people that still do paper about it. Um okay, uh so it we I think you talked briefly before about um assumptions, risks, exclusions, caveats, we we used to call it cares. Um caveats, assumptions, risks, and exclusions. And but f from your point of view, is that that's the that's the bidder putting uh forward uh what is and what isn't in the proposal, what they see as a risk, um uh both to to the delivery of of because you're you know you're you're you're showing the um the market that you've assessed uh the bid and and whether it is a those areas of risk and and how you're gonna mitigate and how you're gonna deal. Yeah. So it's is is it is it good to have that sort of cares or or whatever you've you've used before in in your bid? Yeah, definitely 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

I like the care. I think that's that puts a I think sometimes some teams see that as it's a bit of a an add-on or an add-on, yeah. Whereas actually it's and it's a so it does such wonders, is it when we talk about, I think in our first episode it was trust is a currency, isn't it? Which we're working in. Yeah. And the ultimate trust is given when you see a full-on proposal which has been assumptions, you know, all cleared. I always have a view, I don't know what your thoughts are, Stu, but when assumptions aren't there, you're basically letting the customer take that as a problem, yeah. Effectively, aren't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Um I guess what you mean by that is uh the way that you've put your bid together, you've assumed, if it's not written down in the in the question set, you've assumed um this particular way that the customer wants it, wants it written, and that's how you've gone about it. But you're actually saying that that's what you've assumed.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it's fully roughly wrapped up. Yeah, so from a you know, assumptions. And then I think also once we get to a negotiation phase or the next phase, even if that's not even negotiated, it's just like the next phase, whoever that is, we can have assumptions that are then closed out, can't we? If there's still the ability to have open communication with BD, they can take some of those assumptions, try and close them out and work it through. Which is why I always like to have a capture plan that has assumptions there too, so that it's possible to like try and work those through throughout the whole point of the year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

And and talking about risk, um again, something else that people say is, oh, we've got to put a risk matrix in here. Yeah. You know, it's an added annex, we'll we'll just go through the normal risks. How do you go about putting uh you know your risks together for a for a bid to demonstrate? I guess you just said there there's risks internal of you putting that submission in, but there's also the risks that you want to show to the customer and how you've mitigated them. How do you go about that?

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Well, you do me Stewart, I love a good workshop. Obviously, whiteboards everywhere. Whiteboards, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Um and I do have facilitated those risks. So, really a risk workshop again to uh cross you know, multi, what do you call it, like multifasted or for more from commercial to all the parts of the yeah? Yeah, exactly. So to have a round the table or virtual, you know, what are the key risks? So we'll identify those and then we'll go through like whatever that template is in terms of the impact, mitigation, yeah. The cost of it if we have to put it in our pricing, or ideally, if we want to be competitive, at least get the business to absorb that if possible, you know, or make a plan and not pass it to the customer. But whatever that is, it's worked well in a w in a workshop. Um, but again, in time and resource, also doing that one-to-one with the disciplines. Um, eventually, once we're on a mature product or service, it's possible to have a bit of a baseline risk register. And then I've seen it where we've just gone, is that apply applicable? Yes, yes, no, no. And then we can upgrade. Yeah. Yeah. But I think quite often it's difficult to do that when it's a first of a kind, isn't it? You know, product or service offering. Um yeah, definitely the risk register. Again, I've seen it more often if you've seen it, Stu, where the customers asking for that risk register now, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. Um, which is understandable.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Yeah. And I and I guess having those those prompts in terms of well, what's the what's the technical risk, what's the commercial risk, what's the financial risk, all of those areas. At least it gives you those prompts to to to work from and then you can develop it.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

I think the the key point is don't try and do a risk matrix on your own. Yeah. You know, because you work better across teams and you'll bounce off other people and you'll go, oh, that's that but what about this? What about that? And how have you dealt with that before, etc. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Yeah, there you go. Um another thing I just wanted to touch on before we sort of well uh close out, um, is um this sort of value for money. Uh, because it you know, especially when you're bidding into MOD, um proving your value for money is is critical because we're dealing with the public purse, you know, it's it's it's taxpayers' money at the end of the day. I'm not saying that's not the uh the case for B2B, but but you're under more scrutiny from a an MOD bid than than perhaps uh from a B2B bid on that on that area. Um you know, how do you articulate value for money uh in in a bid? What what's what's some tips there for for listeners?

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Yeah, it's so it's it is a a challenge, isn't it, in in that sense, because it's such an important thing. I think you definitely need that customer view, as we've touched on. So the value for money or you know, VF, however it's done, if it's done via that, or even just establishing value. I think if we don't have that customer view, it's quite abstract and it's our interpretation of what value is. Uh so I think I mean that could still work, but it's much better and effective if we've got a view of what's the value to the customer.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Um and it might not be financial, it might be operational or you know, pulling forward the availability of a platform or you know, uh taking the risk off uh for in-service maintenance or or whatever it may be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

So yeah, I think I mean how what are your thoughts on how to best bring that out when you you need the customer like Intel?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

I think um the way I've used it before is uh just thinking about what we call the defence lines of development. Um so DLODs. Um so I think I might have spelt out the acronym before, but um tepid oil, have you you've heard of tepid oil? Um training, equipment, personnel, information, doctrine, um uh organization, infrastructure, and logistics. So so it gives us an ability. You're gonna take that one away, aren't you? So so it gives you the ability to look at the project um across the whole systems, system of systems. So it's not when everyone says value for money, everyone thinks pounds, yeah, um, but it's not necessarily that. No. Uh I think you've you've got again, you've got that sort of time cost performance triangle that is value for money. So are you gonna get a bit of equipment into the hands of the user from a defence perspective quicker than somebody else? Um, you know, uh what obviously what's it gonna cost? Upfront cost and and through life cost, and then um, you know, what's the what's the performance idea uh aspect of it, the quality, it et cetera. So looking at those defense lines of development um and looking at the sort of tepid oil acronym um is quite a good way for you to think, well, have we covered the fact that um when we deliver this bit of equipment, it is gonna need training, it's gonna need some information, so it's gonna need some publications of how you use it, how you maintain it, uh, etc. Um, you know, is there any logistics side of it? Do we make it easier for the customer to transport it around? Have we thought about uh transport cases or how it's gonna fit on a vehicle, etc.? So it for me it was always very good just to chick go through those that checklist to to look at that. So you'll you'll take that away. I'm good, yeah, yeah. No, I really like it.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

It's good that it's the whole like it's system of systems approach, I think.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

And uh and you know, I being an engineer by uh by background, I I love I love a good system.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

So um Yeah, and I like systems, it's it's a thorough approach, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 38:37

You can't stand alone. Exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Um and we also just to touch, just to keep uh on the the sort of cost theme.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

Um we talked caught about different costs as well that could be in a bid. Um, because you've got those upfront costs, so things that we non-recurring engineering costs for for people who are putting production in. You've got the unit cost of if you're if you're producing you know a particular product, then you'll have a unit cost, but you've also then got the in-service cost or the operational cost that you need to look at. So don't just think about how much a product costs it in, you know, when you when you say to a customer that's how much that individual product costs, but thinking about all of the aspects and all of that cost. And that will help you to de-risk it internally as well. Because there may not be, you may not have thought of some costs that are going to come back and and bite you uh when you've when you've sort of delivered it. Um is there anything else on the cost aspect that you would you would sort of identify?

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Well, it's an interesting area, isn't it? I think the I call it like cost activity. I think it's quite a you know, it's again it I guess it's underpinned by understanding the customer. But yeah, I'm I am with you. I think it's important to acknowledge, even if it's not always communicated to the customer, it's important for us to have that so we can help to demonstrate that value. I think I've seen quite often, which is unfortunate really, where we have that information and I think it's that data on costs that you said maybe the through life costs, which can which can help to strengthen our like value or demonstrate that value to the customer. But sometimes the bidding entities are reluctant to share that because you think, oh, it's the IP, or oh it's but actually it's probably it is what the customer they want to know that they want to know that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um I I had a a recent client sort of contact me and and say that um you know they've they've had pushback because uh because of license fees and and and things in in service. So you know, just make sure that you read uh the the sort of detail of the of the requirement to to understand whether some costs are off the table or on the table and and whether you need to incorporate that in your unit cost, basically, and you and you're not doing recurring costs. Yes, yeah. Okay. Um so just to try and and and wrap up, the last question is you know, common mistakes that that you might have sort of seen in uh winning or losing uh bids. Mistake losing bids. Um what what's what are the common stuff common mistakes that you might have have seen in uh in bids that you've worked on or seen other people work on previously?

SPEAKER_02 41:25

Well I suppose we've just touched on one in terms of the costing activity, hadn't we? In terms of not understanding the full costing and having probably a narrow view on what information to share. Like, oh well you know, I hear in often in the you know, oh, we'll provide that once we're in contract, we'll provide that when we're in contract.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

It's too late.

SPEAKER_02 41:45

Too late then. What happens if you don't get the contract? Yeah, yeah. So that that's probably one of the main ones, and I think as well the view of um n just not having the I guess full looped back to those user needs. Yeah. So I guess the opposite of what we've all been discussing now, isn't it, in terms of just not putting in enough evidence and granularity and detail to back up what we're saying.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Read the question.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Yeah, read the question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a pound for every time you said that, Stu.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Absolutely. Uh I and I think I would also add don't just think it's technically focused.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

That is true.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Think about because a lot of people in technology organizations get very focused on well, ours is the best solution technically. Yeah. It might be, but what are how are you going to help the customer to get it into service, the project management, the program management, the commercials that that wrap around that? If your commercials are too risky, then your technology might be the best thing out there, but um, you know, the the the buyer is not going to touch it because it's a commercial risk. So I think again, elevate yourself to the systems level, think about all aspects of the product. Uh, and I think again, that's the benefit of of bringing external people in to wear those customer hats.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Uh, to make sure it's good.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Great.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Cool. Um, so I think that's that's it for this episode. Yes. Um, next time we'll be diving into another key topic to help SMEs navigate the complex and often challenging environments of of defence. Um, we'll continue unpacking practical insights, strategies, and lessons to support your journey from innovation to contract. So uh, from myself, thank you very much for listening and thank you for being here, Georgine.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Thank you. Thank you. Enjoyable as always. Thank you. Okay, so that's it for today's episode of Advanced the Contract, where we help SMEs navigate into the defence landscape with clarity, confidence, and purpose.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

So if you found today's discussion useful, don't forget to subscribe, share it with your network, and leave us a review. And if you've got questions or topics you'd like us to cover in future episodes, we'd really like to hear from you. You can download Our top tips and resources from the website link in the episode description.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Thank you for listening. And remember, every big contract starts with a single conversation. Until next time, keep advancing.