Margs & Manuscripts
The book world is bigger than any one corner of it. Margs & Manuscripts brings it all together — writers, authors, agents, editors, bookstore owners, and readers — for real, unfiltered conversation about writing, publishing, and the reading life. Hosted by Cait and Jenna, two writer friends who pour a drink and let the conversation flow.
Margs & Manuscripts
In the Lime Light with Beth Carlberg
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
When something hungry wakes in the pines, Aunna must protect the woman she loves before it devours them both.
Beth Carlberg joins us to talk Firewatcher, her dark fantasy folk horror where magic doesn’t sparkle. It costs you. Aunna is the first woman Firewatcher in generations. She can hear the dead speak through flame, and every bit of that power leaves a mark. When the Temnylf crawl out of the woods hungry for the magic buried in human bones, she has to decide how much she’s willing to burn.
We get into why fairy tales were always folk horror, how a short story grew into a full novel (with about 50,000 words left on the cutting room floor), and why Beth never tells herself no in a first draft. Then it gets delightfully woo: tarot, writing as a vessel, and the real toll of spending your workday in dark places. Fair warning, she rated Firewatcher an eleven on our dark and twisty scale.
In this episode:
- The Dolly Parton school of author branding: you are the brand
- Building a magic system where every spell has a price
- Growing up on Robin McKinley and Tolkien, and why the original fairy tales are horrifying
- Why Beth stays out of reader review spaces
- One hand, two color schemes: the story behind the hardcover and paperback covers
- From short story to novella to novel, with help from a developmental editor and The Heroine’s Journey
- The difference between what you write and what you sell
- Tarot as the thing you already know but don’t want to hear
- Writing dark without becoming dark, and the Snow White retelling she shelved for good
- How a second pen name and a lovers-to-enemies romantasy let her write outside horror authentically
- Leaving readers with complex feelings in a hot-take world
- Climbing out of the bog: noise-cancelling headphones, lo-fi jazz, and touching grass
- What’s next: Chokecherry, an 80s lesbian horror coming September 2027
Connect with Beth:
- Website: https://www.bethcarlberg.net
- Buy Firewatcher direct: https://www.bethcarlberg.net/firewatcher
- Firewatcher at all retailers: https://books2read.com/links/ubl/3JaxGg
- Newsletter: https://www.bethcarlberg.net/newsletter
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/beth.carlberg
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@bethcarlberg
Connect with M&M:
- Website: https://margsandmanuscripts.com
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/margsandmanuscripts
Lime Light is our author spotlight series, created to give indie authors an affordable way to get their books in front of new readers. Beth is a featured Lime Light author, and this episode is a paid feature. Want your book in the Lime Light? Reach out at https://margsandmanuscripts.com.
Welcome to the Live Light. It's Thursday, which means it's time for us to highlight new releases, can't miss books, and the authors making waves. We're bringing you the stories you'll want to add to your TBR immediately. So grab a drink and let's dive in. Friends. I'm very excited to know. Excited. Yeah. How are you? I'm good. How are you guys? Good. We were just on your website and talking about how beautiful like all your artwork is and stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Thank you. Big fan.
SPEAKER_02Well, I love we love a brand for an author.
SPEAKER_01I am very much about, I learned it from Dolly Parton. You are the brand. Bless her heart, bless her soul. She learned it before anybody else. I'm telling you, she she knew what she was doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. She she I'd say she did well. Yeah. Yeah. It worked out for her. It did.
SPEAKER_01Though we may look extremely polished and have our shoes deep down, we are fumbling through life. And we always forget to do a proper introduction. I may look like I'm put together, but really on the inside, I am a rabid raccoon. Yes. So I just I pretend to be an adult.
SPEAKER_02Perfect.
SPEAKER_00That's what we say. We always say, like, we're building the plane as we're flying it. So that's what we're doing. Um, but we we I think we just get too excited to chat. Like we like dive right in and we'll like do we'll go off on a tangent. And I'm like, oh yeah, we didn't we didn't talk, we didn't say the name of their book or their name.
SPEAKER_01Or what they do or who they are. You're just there talking about where they're from.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it is very like mid-conversation, like get up to speed, folks. So okay. Let's start at the top.
SPEAKER_01Let's start at the top.
SPEAKER_00We are very excited to welcome you to that show because I keep Carlberg.
SPEAKER_01I know. You are just like, woo! And I know it's like shiny object, I'm a squirrel. But yeah, we are here today with Beth Carlberg talking about Fire Watcher, her latest release. And it is, it looks so good.
SPEAKER_02Like I'm very excited to read this one. It is already in my Amazon cart, ready to hit send.
SPEAKER_01But anyway, sacrifice?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I I bestow a sacrifice to the book gods. It is my penance for being an author wanting sales in the future.
SPEAKER_00So it's true. Yes, the karma ceremonies. Welcome back. We are thrilled to talk to you about all of this stuff. But first, we just we we want you to pitch Firewatcher and just kind of give us an intro into what Firewatcher is all about. It just came out September 18th. Like what has the release been like? And well, we'll go down that road. But yeah, just tell us a little bit about Firewatcher first.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So the pitch line I've been using at book events is when something hungry wakes in the pines, Anna must protect the woman she loves before it devours them both. That's my little like blurb line. The story started for me contemplating what happens when magic is not this wonderful, beautiful, pretty thing. Like, what happens if magic costs you thing? And in this world, magic creates headaches, it gives you diseases, it causes infertility, cancer, like um it is not this pretty thing. And so when you're bearing the cost of that, what are you willing to do? What are you willing to give up? Like it's kind of this conflict between duty and desire and community and um sacrifice, and it's I love this book.
SPEAKER_02I I I absolutely love this book, and I especially love that idea of like magic having a cost. Um, I think there's there's some novels that hit on that or like even shows that talk about it of like um like this is the cost of using it.
SPEAKER_01If you use it too much, it like actually like takes away from you and can kill you.
SPEAKER_02But having it almost like always have a cost and have that be very upfront and in like the forefront of the reader's mind is definitely fresh, and I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, because I I mean I grew up on Robin McKinley, J.R. Tolkien, like those magic is pretty and it can be fun, but like Robin McKinley in particular, um, a lot of her books, people the the heroines go through a lot of physical, physically difficult things as they're learning how to use magic. And so I kind of turned that up a notch, basically, because I like the idea of it. I I just feel like if magic was a real thing, it would not, it would come with a cost. It wouldn't just be fairies and twinkle lights and ooh, I can turn myself into a princess. Like it wouldn't be that. There would be no magic wands. Yeah, there would be no magic wands. There would be, and your fairy godmother would like show up half drunk and high and like give you a pumpkin but not a carriage and a dress that doesn't fit you or something like that, you know? And like if you read, if you read original fairy tales, not the Disney fied like ones, they are horrifying. You know, like this original Cinderella, one of the stepsisters cuts off, and one of the versions she cuts off the back of her heel to get it fit into the glass slipper. So, like, and you know, there's a there's a bit of resurgent in the last 10 years where people are kind of like redoing those dark fairy tales as folk horror, but essentially fairy tales are folk horror. Um, and that's kind of what this is rooted in. Yeah, that's like the OG folk horror. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yes. So it sounds like you have a knack for the dark and twisty. Um so tell me about how like on a scale of like I I can take it, that was like kind of dismal to wow, I need to rethink everything.
SPEAKER_02The world fucking sucks. Like, where are we on the dark and twisty realm of like for Fire Watcher?
SPEAKER_01Um that's that's a rough question.
SPEAKER_00Um probably you must have a yeah, I was like, you you probably have a very different scale than I do. That's true.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so so I, you know, I write horror, I read horror, so my scale is a little like tilted. So for I had beta readers that were non-horror readers, and it they said it petrified them and they don't want to read it at night. For my more horror readers, they're like, oh, this was scary, it was spooky, we really liked it. Um and the ending is it's a tragedy. So I don't want to give away too much about the ending, but it is a tragedy. So it is pretty gut-wrenching. Um, and that's the feedback that I've gotten from all of the readers.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is up your alley, Jenna. I know. This is this is like what you guys love over there. Um with this, my question is is the next one connected to this one or is this a standalone?
SPEAKER_01No, so the next book I'm writing is Chokecherry. It's an 80s lesbian horror. So it completely not fantasy. I I do have other books that will take place in this world, but I needed to jump to something completely different. That's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02So, how what's the reception been like? Like these first couple of weeks of that out?
SPEAKER_01Um, I have gotten really good reviews. Um, I've um I have tried not to pay too much attention to it because I want to re leave review spaces for readers. And uh, you know, if you're on TikTok at all, you know that there's writers that come into reader spaces and get weird when they get negative reviews. And I don't want to do that because like that, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. And my opinion is like this book is out in the world and it belongs to the readers, not to me. And they get to have their opinion about it. Like, and that's fine. That's not an opinion about me, that's an opinion about the book. But um, overall, I've I'm like mostly four, four out of five stars, some five stars. Um people seem to really love it. Um I yeah, I mean, which is there a trend.
SPEAKER_00I don't know why.
SPEAKER_01I'm surprised by that, but I'm surprised by it. I don't know why. But I think every writer is like nervous when they put out a book and they're like, oh, people like me. I know terrified.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Has there been like a trend in what people are like really connecting with? Is it the main character? Is it like between your beta readers and stuff? Like who or what part aspect of it that people really like?
SPEAKER_01Um, they really like, um, they really like the lesbian love story. And they also really like the magic system. Um, and they a lot of the words that I've been getting are like it's atmospheric, it's creepy, it's got some dread to it. The writing is really um lyrical and beautiful. That's both what the beta readers and my narrator said. Um, I it made my audiobook narrator, Shannon, cry um like a lot. So you can take that as a compliment if you want. If if you like to cry, read my book.
SPEAKER_02Um, that's not a great selling point for everyone, but so was it cry due to how beautifully tragic it was, or cry because I'm terrified and can't close my eyes?
SPEAKER_01Um uh cry for the tragedy. Um not because it's petrifying. I'm hoping my next book might be cry because it's petrifying, though.
SPEAKER_00This is so cool. Also, like I'm I'm if you're listening on the pod right now, like I'm I'm looking at her website and the cover of the book too, and I'm I'm I want to know about the artwork because it's so freaking interesting. It's very striking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, almost like it looks like it took me a while to find a cover artist that I um that we were on the same page because there was a cover artist that I worked with, and she's a very good artist, but we just weren't on quite the same page of what I wanted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I knew I wanted like a hand with the fire, and I wanted it to look like it's gotta give dark fantasy folk horror vibes. I don't want it to give pretty like pretty normal fantasy vibes.
SPEAKER_02It's it gives like crone hand.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so um my hardcover actually has more like natural skin tones. Um it's like orange and red, but then my soft back is the blue and the black, which I really like. I like both of them actually.
SPEAKER_00Collectors. It's where can I find the oh my gosh, that's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, that's definitely like mummified crone, like a little bit of the Harry Potter like creepy hand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, it is so pretty. That's so cool how you decided to do the two kinds. So what's with the hardcover one? What honestly, like what's the decision that? Because I only did paperback, and Jenna's in the middle of like trying to choose um like if she's gonna do hardcover or like what she wants to do, and like what was your decision in going with, well, I'm gonna do both, and one's gonna be this way, and one's gonna be this, because it's that's I think that's really cool and it makes it worth it.
SPEAKER_01So um I wanted to do hardback partially because I wanted a hardback. Um and then I want to be able to sell hardbacks at like book events and things like that. Um, you know, most of the local bookstores that are taking in my book are probably not gonna order in the hardback, but I wanted it available if people really wanted it. Um and then to be entirely honest, the reason I decided to go with a different color scheme for the softback is because I didn't like how the colors looked printed on a softback. Because when they printed on a hardback, it looks different than when it's printed directly on the softback, and it just looked flat. And so um a friend of mine, Stephanie, um, who actually came out with a book on the same day that I did, um, she she and I futzed with the colors um from the cover artist that I had gotten his files, and she and I changed the color saturation and came up with this. And then I was just like, let's do both.
SPEAKER_00That's really cool. I feel like horror readers too, like, do like that kind of collectible book. Like they will bar like buy that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I wanted it to look good in both versions, and you do see different, slightly different color, like not as much now, because even like traditional publishing doesn't release a lot of hardbacks, they mostly do softbacks. But back in the day, you would release a hardback and then you would release a softback a year later with a slightly different cover sometimes. And so I kind of liked that old-fashioned like publishing 30 years ago. I mean, I know that's not how the market is now, but I like it. What what is the market? The market doesn't know. No, I think it's gonna be a good one.
SPEAKER_00I feel like it's gonna it's gonna circle back because I think that we like do miss the hardcovers, and I think that like covers are now becoming again like or like this artwork that you do wanna have, like these beautiful copies of the book, and the book is a display item at the same time. Um, so I don't I don't know. I think hardbacks are coming. I think also like there's a lot of horror romantic like books that are like going back to the 80s kind of artwork, like they are.
SPEAKER_01You're seeing resurgence in that painterly like illustration style from like the 80s and 90s uh fantasy covers, which I really like. I just didn't want you don't usually see people on horror covers. Um, and so it's like I don't want a person on it because that'll look weird.
SPEAKER_00I think it looks like severed hand to me. Yeah, it looks like severed hand to me. Exactly. Um Jana, I want you to dive more into the story because I know I took a I always take an artwork detour, but um, I do want to talk more about uh deeper, more about the story, like just even more past the pitch.
SPEAKER_02When you were writing it though, was it more of like you didn't know what the where the story was going and you were like uncovering it while you were um writing it? Or did you have like a plot perfectly in mind and you're like this is where it's going, this is how it ends?
SPEAKER_01Like, what was that like? I had no idea where this was going. Um really it's so it started off as a short story and then it turned into a novella, and then I had a critique group look at it, and they were like, this could be a full-length novel. And I was like, Okay, well, I gotta add like 20 to 30,000 words. So I just started adding things, and then it sort of became this nasty mess with a lot of characters that I didn't need. And so I had I went to a developmental editor and she kind of helped me pinpoint where I needed to fix some stuff. So I like took out like 20,000 words and added in another 30,000 for different stuff. Um I didn't know the ending probably until I don't know, draft five or six, um, uh because of all the iterations that it had. And then um my secondary editor helped me kind of move some things around because it's kind of like it follows the hero's journey. And she was like, some of the stuff you have in diff in the wrong place. So there was some kind of reshuffling um, even in the last year before I put it out. And so it I am very happy with how it turned out, but it took us a while. It was a gnarled mess before we got to where we are now.
SPEAKER_02Not to mention that like the hero's journey from like a feminine perspective is very it can vary greatly from like the traditional male's perspective.
SPEAKER_01It it does. And you know, the the stereotypical male's uh or hero journey is he basically ends up alone facing the things by himself, and that's kind of not how this book ends. Um not how the ladies do it. No, and if you read, if you've read, there's a book called The Heroine's Journey. Um and it's excellent. And so I was trying to kind of merge those two story arcs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. I definitely get that. And I feel like too, like thinking about when you said that it started as a short story and then a novella, I was like, well, how like horror and like a magic system and all of that, I'm like, no wonder your your critique group was like, yo, you can really flush this out. Like there's so much. There's so much here. There's probably even just like what you had at that base, just like flushing that out instead of adding other elements in was probably like what you ended up doing, right? Like the way to go is just like, oh wait, like I have a whole magic system I could really talk about that more.
SPEAKER_01I probably wrote another 50,000 words that aren't in the book. Um she had a brother um for a long time that I ended up cutting out because he didn't need to be in the story. Like there was a whole, I mean, there's you know, there's all those characters that you end up just cutting out because you're like they they were necessary for the short story, but not for the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but also how good for you to know two of those things. Like, I feel like just knowing that, like Jenna gets real deep into her genealogy, and it probably is not has nothing to do with book. So, like, I I think that's really cool that you actually went down those avenues and you got to explore the characters that deep.
SPEAKER_01It was coming. It was really cool. I think that's why um I think that's why the the book feels so lived in and like the care, I mean, like the characters felt real to me, and I hope that they feel real to the readers. Um, and I think they do. Um, because I I lived with them for a really long time. And like a lot of my characters sort of come in, I don't want to say fully formed, but they arrive and they've got their own personality and their own opinions, and then we have to figure out how to write the book together. And I'm not in charge. Most of the time I'm not in charge. Yeah, and then I know the idea.
SPEAKER_00And then you know, like yeah, I'm gonna give a little woo-woo. I just want to know about your woo-woo and your scale of woo-woo when you're writing. And where are the ideas coming from? Or like, do you have any rituals? Or like, do you what are because as a horror writer, you must have some places you go to, and how do you get there?
SPEAKER_01I um I don't know how much of the story comes from me and how much comes from something else. Mm-hmm. Um, and I don't know how much of it is like so, like, I do tarot readings and stuff like that too. Um, I've got like a witchy side, so I don't know. So, like, I say the same thing about tarot. Tarot may be just picking up on your subconscious and telling you the things you already know, or it could be an outside force of some sort. It kind of depends on what your belief system is. And I kind of think it's a combination of both. And I kind of feel the same way about my writing. Some of it comes from me, and some of it comes from something else that I I don't know, some magical ether of writer like ideas. Like you tap into a different frequency. And I think when you're really in that flow state, and like when I'm first drafting, I'm not allowed to tell myself no. If there's an idea, we go with it. And it might not make it into the final draft, but that first draft, I don't tell myself no. So it can be whatever it wants to be, and that's how you get it messy. But and no, all of that stuff doesn't end up in the final draft because what I write versus what I sell are two different things. But I need to be able to have that openness to be able to let the story breathe and the characters be who they want to be so that it can come out in a in a way that doesn't feel forced. Yeah, I guess. If it feels very authentic, then it's truthful.
SPEAKER_00Isn't that what we're trying to do?
SPEAKER_01And the thing that I think for the horror side of it though, there are times that I write something and I'm like, well, I didn't know that was lurking in there. She dark. She dark and dismal. And I but it's not like a shame-based thing, because I'm I'm also I realize my work and me are two separate things. So like just because it's something dark and nasty doesn't necessarily mean I'm that way. But I think human beings have a great potential to be lots of things. They can be terrible or wonderful or evil and awful. Yeah. And a lot of readers have a hard time. Humanity in general is a hard time, but readers especially of like d like understanding the difference of like this is a story. This was Almost like bestowed upon the author as permission to write it. Right. And it's not the author. Right. Unless it's an autobiography. Right. And this is n definitely not an attack. Thank God. But also that would be terrible.
SPEAKER_00It would be horrible. It would be terrible. What like what if what if it's not coming from our subconscious? And what if it's coming from somebody who's using you as the person to tell the story of their story or whatever it is or some experience or whatever? I don't know. I like talking to I like talking to you about this because you're a horror writer. And I feel like this is like, you know, you could be the vessel to tell us the stories that need to be heard.
SPEAKER_01Backstory, Kate feels like she is the vessel for her one of her. I'm just woo-woo.
SPEAKER_00I'm woo-woo about writing. And like I get it. And like literally, whenever I you had the exact same reaction I have, which is like, how do I answer this question? Like when it comes up like sounding like a crazy person. Without sounding like a crazy person. And then once you said you were into it, I was like, okay, she gets it. We're good. Yeah. We're good. We're safe here.
SPEAKER_01And I I think if I am that vessel, I just hope I'm doing the story justice, I guess. Right. At the end of the day. Um. And, you know, I think, I think for so many readers, me included, reading books, we started reading books when we were teenagers and we saw ourselves, or young adults, and we saw ourselves in those stories. And that made us feel connected to a larger world because we saw an emotion or an experience that we couldn't put words to expressed in a book. And that's kind of what I want people to come away with, no matter what kind of literature they read. And I also want people to leave with complex feelings from all of my books, quite frankly. Because I feel like so much in because of the internet, for good or bad, has flattened everything. And you have to have a black or white, this or that opinion. You have to have a hot take. And I think there's so many things in the world that are so complex and nuanced, and human beings themselves are that way. And I want people to walk away from my book, maybe with some conflicting feelings, because I feel like that's what the world is. That's what the experience of life is. And I feel like just everybody's story, um, it's complicated, you know? And it's also it it can make people uncomfortable because it's real.
SPEAKER_02Like it's not a one done, I read the book, like cool, moving on to the next. But when my husband and I talk about this all the time, especially with films that aren't straightforward or like books that aren't straightforward, it makes people so uncomfortable. And if you are a person that grows within the discomfort or allows yourself to grow within the discomfort, it is like a wonderful experience.
SPEAKER_01You want to do it again and it again. And then others are like, no, no, no, no, no, no, too much, too much for me.
SPEAKER_02And then they like back to it. I don't get it. And then they like, then it becomes like a fear-based versus like actually being open to something new. But I this is not a psychology lesson.
SPEAKER_01Um, but a hundred percent, like it when you get done reading a book, as an author, you know you have done your job when readers step away from it and feel things. Big things. Big things. Yes. And I felt big things writing this book. So I'm hoping. I mean, uh, from the reviews that I've read and looked at, it seems like people step away from this book with a lot of big feelings. And, you know, uh, when I was doing rewrites, especially towards the end, there were weeks where I was just making myself sad every day because I was writing all of these sad scenes. And it's not like I want to make my readers sad, but I want them to feel that what I felt when I wrote it.
SPEAKER_02That's kind of the we talk a lot about when you don't write from your perspective, or you don't write with your like you as the driver, it loses so much authenticity and becomes flat and just becomes like another like piece of noise, um, or piece of media. And I think it was the episode that we aired this week, wasn't it? Of when you try to write to market, where's your where's your perspective on it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, so like I'm I know we kind of talked about not doing this, but I'm gonna take a dip out of this author persona into a different one. But so like the romanticy book I wrote is actually reverse trope. Um because I didn't feel like I could write romanticy in an authentic way unless I did it kind of subversively.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so my it's it's lovers to enemies. And um, and I because I was like, I I wanted to write romanticy and I knew I had this like quirky, humorous voice in me that doesn't really fit in the horror side, but I knew I needed to do, I needed to have a hook into romanticy that worked for me. And that's that's where that came in. So I think there's a way of not necessarily writing to market, but like if there's something you want to write, there's a there's a way to find an inroad where you can do it authentically.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. Yes. And totally isn't that like our job as authors to figure that out?
SPEAKER_00I feel like, yes. Figure out where you fit. Yeah, like where do I fit in all of this? And I and that's why you you need to come back on for a full episode because that's like that's like the beginning of that episode. I feel like this conversation is like that's where we start. Stay tuned to be continued. Yeah, to be continued. Also, tarot cards, tarot cards, but also tarot, I have a lot to ask about that as well.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, because my birthday's on Halloween. So happy birthday. Oh, thank you.
SPEAKER_02So I'm always like a little extra witchy about stuff, and I'm very curious of how you got into that, and then I'll let you go because this is just I have so much.
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I I don't know how deep you want to go into my own personal lore, but um, I don't care. Like, let's deconstruct it. Um, I I was raised very conservative Christian. Okay. I came out of that um in my 20s and uh basically decided to be an atheist because I was like, well, if God's not real, then if Jesus isn't real, then none of them are real. And I was like not happy. I was absolutely miserable. And then one of my friends was like a witchy spiritual person, and she's like, let's try meditation together, let's do tarot together. And so I started getting into that with her, and it this is gonna sound very woo-woo, but don't care. We're woo-woo here. Um I felt like when I was disconnected from any sort of spiritual practice, it affected my writing. I felt like I couldn't really connect with my writing when I didn't believe that there was any kind of other force in the universe, whether it's the universe itself or some sort of god or something else, whatever you want to call it. Um and so I feel like kind of reconnecting to some of that stuff in a way that, because practicing witchcraft for me is not about make turning other people into witches or worshiping Satan because I don't even really believe in Satan. It's about reclaiming, it's about claiming something for myself. And it's about having a spiritual practice that works for me. And if other people want to participate in it, that's fine. But all of the witchcraft stuff I do, it's because I think this is what I want to do. This is like I make up rituals that I'm like, ooh, there's this weird thing. I'm gonna do this ritual because this is what sounds right for me. And I feel like in so many ways, religion has taken power from women. And witchcraft is about claiming that sense of power and also personal responsibility. Um, but also like I'm gonna reclaim all this stuff, and it's it's about me. It's not about a God or a higher power or anything. And eat whether it works or not isn't really the point. It makes me feel better. And that's the whole point. And that makes me feel powerful. And that is also the point. And so, um, and and like a lot of people are like, well, do you believe in God? And I'm kind of like, I believe there's something out there. What it is, I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like this is not just a matrix simulation. This is like there's something there.
SPEAKER_01There's something there, and I don't have to figure it out. I don't have to categorize it, I don't have to put it in a religious box and try and control it. Um, it can be this nebulous concept, and I don't have to convince anyone else of it. Like if they don't want to believe it, that's fine. I don't care. So was like tarot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So like was tarot like one of those tools?
SPEAKER_01Yes, tarot is one of those tools. So yeah, for me, tarot is a lot of times, tarot for me is telling me the thing that I know that I don't want to hear.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And also when I do readings for other people, it's that too. It is this is the thing that this per like at some point, usually in a tarot reading that I'm doing with other people, there will be a moment where I'll be like, that's the thing you don't want to hear. Here's the thing you don't want to hear that you need to hear that you already know in the back of your head somewhere, this is what I need to do or this is what's wrong, but you're not willing to admit it. Because it's interesting the things we hide from ourselves. Yes. It's like being like brutally honest without you needing to take the fall for it. Well, and also um being brutally honest in a in an not without kindness. Um it's not. I read somewhere that truth, um, I can't remember what they said, but it was basically like truth without kindness is cruelty, but lying is something I like. I can't remember. I'm butching up the quote.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I know I I know exactly what quote you're talking about, and I'm like racking my brain. Like, what is it? I can't remember the freaking part.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It I like I was just gonna say there's no there's no coincidence that like by the when you were more open to those experiences that like you're able to produce all these books.
SPEAKER_01Like I think open to receiving that energy. I think being um open-minded and like like I talked about with those early drafts, I'm not allowed to say no. Any idea is not like there's not a bad idea, is basic and you know, there's a lot of like psychology behind that in terms of like brainstorming and stuff like that, but there's also just this openness and this flexibility that comes when you've got that openness, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Whereas if you're available, when it's like, all right, like let's go, like send it down. I'm here, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01And I think if you're very rigid in your thinking, um, it can stifle some of that sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. It's really nice to hear that from you, somebody else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. To be honest. These are the conversations we have offline. I know all the time.
SPEAKER_00It's true, but it's and we've talked to like, like, because I like historical fiction, and we've talked to other historical fiction authors on this podcast where I've been like, hey, like point blank, do you feel like this person's writing this book through you? And every single one of them so far has been like, yes, I feel extremely connected to this person. And I talk to them and like all this stuff. And and and so it's really it's nice when other writers can like say that that's also their experience or that they can sit down and they're like, where is this? Like, whatever I'm writing at this moment, like where is it coming from? And like, especially I think for you, like in in the subjects that you're writing and what you're talking about and stuff that like those are places that I could not get to that I'm so amazed that like people are able to get to those places. And I'm always thinking, like, wow, you must be able to like really dive into this energy, or like whatever it is that you're you're going there to write and come up with these ideas is like a really unique place. Um, that not everybody has this gift. Like sometimes it's a hard place to get to. Sometimes it's rough, sometimes it's um emotionally tiring.
SPEAKER_01I mean, and again, that's partially why I have a second pen name because I need to write something that's not so like dark and serious. I need something that's got depth to it, but not literally horrifying myself as I write it. Like I've had moments like that where, and I've there's an entire book that I've written that I probably am not gonna publish because it was so hard for me to write and so horrifying to get through, but I needed to write it. Um, it was basically a very dark retelling of Snow White. Um, and I was I thought about messing with it, but I'm like, I can't go through the redrafting process with this book. So there are times that it goes so dark that I'm like, nope, we're just gonna put that on the shelf. We're gonna say we wrote it. Good job.
SPEAKER_00Yep, since dark energy. Yeah, Mike, totally that makes sense. That makes so much sense. And I'm I'm very I don't know why that makes me feel better.
SPEAKER_01Um, especially because like your like what you made in this book was a magic system, like a source of magic that literally took away from you. It's it's almost such a metaphor. Yeah, this is what you are doing on the daily. Like it can take a toll and it does take away from you, and you do need to like fill yourself back up so you can be taken away from again later. So exactly, exactly. It's so crazy. Well, and certain topics hit hit harder to home for me than others. Um I think in writing like horrifying stories, there's there are certain sub there are certain things that I'm writing about um and certain traumas that I'm writing about that are not something that I've experienced, but because I have empathy and experience my own type of trauma, I can sort of put something together that feels real. Um, and I am also sitting very deeply in these characters' heads at times, for good or bad. And you you don't literally become another person, but sometimes it feels like you do.
SPEAKER_02Like there's like a like a shh almost I like to think about it like as a kind of like a cylinder of like every side of the cylinder is covered in some variation of personalities, and you're like twisting it a little bit to execute like that piece of artwork or like be that person in that situation. And sometimes there's when you need to like turn it off, sometimes there's a little bit of like one side of that showing, but it's not fully gone or it's not fully in view, but it's it lingers sometimes in the background.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I my my biggest trick that I've learned is um I so I wear noise-cancelling headphones when I write, and there's certain music that I will listen to based on certain moods, and then when I'm done, I will take my headphones off and I will turn music on on my phone, but it's like lo-fi jazz or something like, and that kind of helps bring me out of that bog. I don't know what other word to use, but it feels like it kind of just sucks you in and you have to like purposely get yourself out of it.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally I use that the reverse way. I like put the headphones on to get the music that gets me into the bug and then and then take them off and just try to get back into real life and transition. But I have a hard time, like you said, like transitioning. I was like turning to like wine and substances to just like come out of it and like then be able to like go pick up my kids at school, you know? And like I always talk about that, which on how the transition from coming out of like writing all day to like regular life is really hard.
SPEAKER_01Being an adult functioning human taking care of other adult uh of other humans.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a hard thing to do.
SPEAKER_01Hard, yes. Yeah, yes, very hard, yeah. No, I think um, and you know, sometimes it's like going for a walk and being outside and reminding myself that you know the world in here is not the real world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like go touch grass. Literally, literally go touch grass. It is something, it is it there, it is a real thing. Um, but yeah, anyway, we did talk to me for hours. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Limelight. If you would like your book featured in an upcoming Thursday episode, please visit our website, marksandmanuscripts.com. Cheers.
