The Science Fiction & Fantasy Factory
Hosted by writer and ranter Mookie Spitz, the SFFF is where science fiction & fantasy creators, fans, and technologists transform imagination into reality. Each episode explores how writers, filmmakers, and world-builders bring their universes to life, with personal stories about turning wild ideas into finished projects that connect, inspire, and thrill. From indie authors to visionary engineers, Mookie uncovers the creative engines powering the future of sci-fi & fantasy storytelling!
The Science Fiction & Fantasy Factory
Daniel P. Douglas Gets Real About Indie Sci-Fi—and Why Great Writing Isn’t Enough
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In this 34th episode of Science Fiction & Fantasy Factory, Mookie gets real about what it actually takes to write and sell fiction in today’s chaos economy. Part craft talk but mostly a collision between loving to write and loving to actually get read.
On one side: Mookie—unfiltered, prolific, and borderline allergic to rules. Plays, novels, rants, sci-fi, satire. No lane, no brakes, no patience for algorithm-chasing, just raw output and instinct.
On the other: Daniel P. Douglas—Phil and Paul Garver. Identical twins with complementary instincts, they’ve built a growing body of work spanning science fiction, thrillers, and genre-bending experiments. Their catalog ranges from high-concept series like Truth Insurrected and the Wild Frontier Chronicles to eclectic short story collections like Sharp Turns Ahead. One brother brings structure, pacing, and forward momentum; the other enforces internal logic, character psychology, and emotional realism.
Things get interesting as Mookie and the twins talk about:
- Why “just write what you love” is incomplete advice
- The brutal reality of indie publishing in an oversaturated market
- The tension between creative freedom and commercial viability
- What happens when one writer chases momentum—and another demands precision
- How collaboration can turn two distinct approaches into something that works
Mookie admits he’s winging it: writing everything, marketing by bloviating, letting the work speaks for itself. Phil and Paul don’t let that slide. They break down the discipline, structure, and strategic thinking required to turn stories into an audience. Together they ask and answer: Are you here to express yourself… or be read?
The Guests
Daniel P. Douglas is the pen name for identical twins Phillip and Paul Garver. Phillip is a U.S. Army veteran who also served as a senior analyst in the U.S. Intelligence Community. He retired from federal service in 2023. Paul’s career includes over 30 years in the museum profession. He has worked for cultural and historic sites in California and Virginia, as well as for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. He currently works as a mental health counselor.
Phillip and Paul enjoy writing science fiction, conspiracy, mystery, suspense, and thriller books and short stories. Their characters are often ordinary people who tread into a collision course with destiny, where survival means confronting personal flaws and fighting for good in the eternal battle against evil.
Substack: https://authordanielpdouglas.substack.com/
Phil's Indie Writers' Resources
A10 Update: https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/the-amazon-a10-update-3-things-every-indie-author-needs-to-know/
Written Word Media: https://secure.writtenwordmedia.com/features
Draft2Digital: https://draft2digital.com/
Book Bub: https://www.bookbub.com/partners/overview
FlexClip: https://www.flexclip.com/
Miblart: https://miblart.com/
Canva: https://www.canva.com/
Hello and welcome to the science fiction and fantasy factory on the floor today. I'm thrilled to have the writers. Daniel P. Douglas. Welcome aboard, guys. Well, thanks. Hey, thank you, Smookie, for having us back. I'm thrilled. I had the bros back in December in the factory, and we've we've come back for more. Can't for now. Daniel P. Douglas is the gnome de plume of identical twins, Phil and Paul. And their oove is expansive. You guys are you guys are rocking it.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it, you know, it we do have kind of uh different genres that we touch on, but in general, you know, it's it's sci-fi, it's thriller. Um, we do have the one uh Western supernatural out there called Eraka Mesa Redemption. Um there that you know the the sci-fi and the thriller suspense books, those are our our mainstays really. Um there might be a few surprises coming up before the end of the year or early next year. So yeah, yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_03We we can't wait. And prolific on Substack as well, where we first met each other. Yeah. A lot of a lot of reviews, a lot of insights, a lot of sharing of best practices for marketing. And I want to I want to cover off on some of that good stuff, too. A lot of our listeners and viewers are our fellow indie authors, great, and readers who are sometimes curious as to what's going on under the hood. Sure. So I'm sure we could uh we can keep them all happy. But uh tell us a little bit more about yourselves because even as we were covering in the last episode, you guys have a fascinating work partnership creatively. To me, it's kind of like Lennon McCartney, but we'll see if you guys, if you if you guys agree. So sometimes I can almost tell it's Paul. Uh other times Phil is gunning it. And and other times there's uh a smoother synthesis where it's really hard to tell. You guys are in a sense greater than the sum of its parts when it comes to certain certain narratives. Can you tell us about your uh your unique way of going about writing?
SPEAKER_01Uh you know, it's hard to distill, I think. Um I it's a great question. Um and you know, I there there is definitely that there are differences uh that we bring, you know, we complement each other uh in different ways. I think that um I think some of the differences are so I'm plagued with a need for things to be um that there needs to be an internal logic. Now, whether it makes sense in the real world is another question, but there has to be an internal logic. And so I'm often looking for like that uh in my own writing and and like is something off uh you know that I can am I picking up on anything like in Phil's writing that I need to bring some logic to that might be uh something might be askew there. Like, why is that character doing that? That doesn't seem right. Um so I know that's one difference, although, you know, I think there is I think Phil has a logic to his uh you know madness, but um, but so I know there they're I'm plagued with that. I have this like need for it to kind of make sense internally. Um so there's I know that's something that I'm I'm looking for. I'm also looking for the there's got to be um the the characters really have to come through. Uh it has to uh I I'm really listening for the characters. Um I want them to speak and act. Um and so I'm looking for that. Now, not to say that Phil doesn't have that already, he does, um, and I think that's what one of the things that I'm looking for when I'm editing his work or uh bringing ideas forward. It's like you know, again, you know, what's the what's the character motivation here? Why are they doing that? Um that's what's really important to me. It's it's less about um I mean the plot comes from the character, so uh that has to really be a driver. And pacing. Um pacing is really important. I think Phil is probably faster on pacing than I can be. Uh I I maybe am okay with a slow bill, uh slow burn.
SPEAKER_03He's got axes to grind. Um you're making sure that it all fits in there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he's angry at the world. Um, and um you know, so I think there's just there are uh edges uh that the difference is in the margins, I guess. Um for each of us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we you know, we kind of touched on this uh in our last podcast with you. We uh the way we uh typically approach a project is one of us writes the story, the other one edits the story. Um I think that uh remains true and it it's a good workflow uh for us, uh especially on the editorial side of things where you have another set of eyes not not like uh intimate with the story, like the writer, the actual writer of the story is and can see things maybe more clearly. Um you know, going back to our very first book that we wrote, uh Truth Insurrected over well over a decade ago now. Um Paul and I have talked about this. You know, we're very visual when we write. Like it's almost like we're watching, and and maybe this is true in general, but it's almost like we're watching a movie in our head of what we're writing about. And the movie that we're seeing tells us, you know, kind of where to take things or whatever, or how to visualize writing that particular moment or scene or whatever. So I think that's uh uh, you know, just to dovetail off of what Paul said, another aspect of our writing.
SPEAKER_03Is there an owner? So you just like you mentioned, there's a story, and then one one of you is driving it, in a sense, leading it, and the other one is editing and polishing. Is that true for an entire novel, or do you subdivide, let's say, a larger work and break it into bits and then the trade off that one?
SPEAKER_02The original uh truth and sector interactive book that we wrote originally was a handoff. You know, we would write so much and then hand it off to the other guy, and he would write so it ping-pongs back in the original book, but we've kind of developed the writing habit, if you will, of one of us does have like the the the bulk of the story, the writing of the story, and then the other one is the editorial part of it. And it that that uh changes from book to book and story to story that we do.
SPEAKER_03That's interesting. So one of you is is owner and the other one's editor. It's great having an editor who is literally your clone. Yeah, it's like clone editing. It's like he it he doesn't really see the story and not living in the story, but he's living in your head in a way. So that that that's pretty interesting. That could be that could be a a badass sci-fi story in and of itself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, evil, the evil quality.
SPEAKER_01You know, it and and the other thing too is uh I think the the diff speaking to the differences, like what we bring to it in collaboration is the our our various backgrounds, right? Phil has a has had a distinctly different like professional background than I have. And increasingly uh, you know, I think we're seeing that. I think we're seeing uh a lot of what you know Phil has experienced in his background in law enforcement and intelligence work and uh military. And uh I'm I'm bringing more of uh because I'm I work as a uh therapist and that's uh that's actually a relatively new career for me, and I'm bringing in uh you know psychology and uh things that neuroscience, things that I've learned uh through that pro uh profession. Uh and in fact, when I was I started reading uh stalking one of Super Santa, and I was reading when I was reading uh uh got to reading the first few chapters, I was like, this is interesting. There are things about these characters in the situation, especially the uh the divorced mom uh with the the son who plays the video games. I'm like, this is just like right out of my uh case book.
SPEAKER_03Uh you know Super Santa, by the way, is uh my first novel that I wrote. Is it certainly okay Rusty Unisov as an illustrator and co co-visionary? So the big holiday book that we issued a couple of years ago, illustrated with Santa and you know meth snorting partying elves. Of course. It's kind of bad Santa meets the nightmare before Christmas. So so Paul's fighting that work, and uh it's interesting though. So you bring a lot of the the emotion and relationships and you know, I'm trying to bring the um you know the the elements of you know uh uh you know I you know there's so many different uh layers to psychotherapy and to psychology, but just you know what drives behavior, you know, uh uh a character's history, uh thoughts, uh emotions, uh emotional conflicts, um and trying to bring that into the storytelling.
SPEAKER_01Um and uh it's helpful and it's it's fun because it's like okay, I now I have a better grip on uh listening to this character uh and and knowing how you know, knowing like what the conflict is here and what they're gonna do um because of that. So, you know, um uh Phil is expert at certain subject matter, and I'm I'm starting to bring uh certain things in that I I I wish I'd known before, um you know, because it's really important for me that to create these characters that actually make the story. Uh and so that seems to be happening more.
SPEAKER_03That's a great, great compliment. Yeah. Ways you're like the uh the Avatar twins. Remember, Avatar begins with the one twin dying, you've got the uh Marine, right? And then you've got the scientist. Only in this case, you guys are both alive and kicking and cranking out awesome science fiction and fantasy. That complimentary opposite relationship, you bring the yin-yang to it, so to speak. Yeah, I've known sets of twins. We talked about this in the last pod, too. And there's two doors, if you will. Door number one, you've got identical twins who just mimic each other, they're just extensions of it. They look alike, they dress alike, they do the same things, they blend into one super twin. And other twins bifurcate and differentiate, and they become very, very different to kind of stake their own claim in the world when again they're sharing all the DNA. You guys kind of fit into the latter category. You guys look different, you have a different focus, and you collaborate very well, probably for that very reason, which is instead of button heads like this, you guys are like, Hey, I'm I'm the more emo one, frankly, and I'm bringing character and emotion and grounding. And then Phil is, I'm gonna go kick ass, you know, screw the man, screw the system. We're we're gonna we're gonna fight the power with this story. And then Paul seems like, well, wait a second, you know, these characters are going through a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it it seems too like so, you know, in the last few years we've done a lot with short stories, and I think for us, the short story format has given us a chance to experiment to grow and to try out different dimensions. And I think it's a it's a natural phase that we're going through. In fact, since we talked last, we published that um Sharp Turns ahead, which is our compilation of short stories, and there's a really wide variety of things in there. Uh, and you and you know, if you're ever curious to know which of us kind of penned which story, we'll you know, be happy to tell you.
SPEAKER_03But uh that's exactly why I brought up the Lennon McCartney dynamic. Because some sometimes it's really hard to tell. Yeah, yeah. And other times it's it's it's self-evident that there is more of that emotional character focus, yeah. And other times, frankly, it's fuck the man.
SPEAKER_00Part of the people, yeah, hard of the people.
SPEAKER_01So you can tell that vibe, right? I think when it's harder to tell, that's an indication of uh maybe a closer collaboration than others. Um because we definitely have distinct voices, I think.
SPEAKER_03I think it's wonderful. I I I'm friends with, and I had prior guests, Blake and Sherry Shimshok. They're also indie writers, they've got the Derek Fade series, and they're wonderful. I did uh the Pasadena Comic-Con with them, and then we're we're gonna go to the LA Festival of Books. So we're in this sci-fi writers click here in Southern California, and uh, they're a married couple, and Blake has the vision, he's the sci-fi maniac, and he sees worlds in his head, and Sherry's like kind of listening and draws it into a coherent story. She's the one who's actually getting it down and anchoring all of that vision, and they collaborate very, very well too. So it's a different dynamic, but it's again this idea of complementary creative personalities partnering up in a way that's symbiotic rather than adversarial, yeah. And and I think that that's great, it's uh it's an amazing way to create content, yeah. It works, and and it just adds so much to the to the various genres that you guys explore, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And more surprises coming. Uh won't won't touch on that now, but maybe for another podcast.
SPEAKER_03Great, great. I I love the little teasers, and uh, you know, and it's it's hard to keep up with you guys in terms of output and in terms of your ongoing commentary. And I do want to note on Substack to subscribe and follow you guys because there's ongoing reviews of short stories, of novels. You guys are uh uh a treat and a benefit to the entire indie science fiction and fantasy community because you guys are actively engaged, you promote other writers, and and it's it's wonderful just being plugged into your yeah.
SPEAKER_02The you know, Substack, it's really important to, since there are a lot of indie authors and indie writers out there, it's important that we all kind of try to support each other where we can. And I fully believe in in doing that. I don't expect anything in return. I just I I feel motivated to try to help folks out, you know. But I wanted to touch on um getting back to sort of writing styles with me, um, me in particular. I don't know if this applies to Paul, but um years and years ago, I read the advice of a writer who said, you know, be faithful, be faithful to your lover, be faithful to your partner. In other words, only write one thing at a time, you know, don't cheat. And I I tried to adhere to that and be good and not cheat. But over the years, I couldn't, I couldn't remain platonic. And I have had I have had I have dabbled in many relationships when it comes to writing. I have I have come to terms with and accepted that the way I work is yes, I have one partner, as it were, who I spend about half my time with. And then the other 50%, I'm dabbling, I'm doing other things, you know, and so including other books. Um and so when I get done with that partner, I'm ready to cast it out into the world and move on. You know, I've already got these other things written to a certain extent, and then the cycle repeats itself. And so that is a particular style that I've, like I say, I've I've come to terms with and I've embraced, and that's how I work.
SPEAKER_03I can relate. I don't have a partner, yet I'm a shameless whore. So so I do, I do you've seen my stuff, and you've you've commented and reviewed, and I I thank you very much for that. So I do plays, screenplays, uh, short stories, fantasy, science fiction, some horror, family sagas. I'm this big swirling mix of everything that pops into my bald ADHD head starts starts coming out. And the the good news is just the enthusiasm that comes with it, and I feel blessed that it's all pouring out, especially at this point in my life. It's just it's just rushing out. The downside is from a marketing point of view, people have trouble figuring you out. Who the hell is this guy? Is he a playwright? Is he an op-ed columnist? Is he a biographer? Is he a nonfiction writer? What the actual hell is going on? So I gave it the best shot with Mookie Multiverse for whatever it works, and then okay, whatever. Uh, but I sense you guys might have similar challenges because you guys do hop genres, and it might be hard to pigeonhole you, but there's the broader conversation about marketing in this age of information overload, content acceleration, and fragmentation. And and it might be worthy to hang our hat on that for a little bit too, because we're we're we're all prolific, but we're also very independent, yeah, and we're outspoken and we're diverse. So the question I'll ask you guys specifically is how do you guys get your stuff out there? I mean, I see what you're doing, but can you elaborate and add some specificity? And can we talk a little strategy on doing exactly that?
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, try uh I would love to share sort of our processes and tools and and the information we ingest to market our books as indie authors. Um, and I and I can share my screen if I can do this.
SPEAKER_03Let's see, let's see if we we can do this from whoa, there we go.
SPEAKER_02This is uh written word media, which if you're an indie author, you definitely want to you know sign up for their free newsletter because they send out very helpful articles, and in this case, you know, a podcast that's about 30 minutes long about the Amazon A10 uh algorithm update. And uh this came out uh you know a few weeks ago, March 17th. And I read this because it got it got pushed to my email uh address and it kind of was an eye-opener. Um one of the biggest things that has changed, and and they give a you know, they give not only the the video and the podcast links for it, but they also give a uh a transcript, if you want to read the transcript instead to see all the details. But one of the one of the biggest things they've done is uh where whereas keywords were We're king under this new algorithm, this A10 version. Keywords are a much smaller uh data point for the algorithm to uh to help rank your book by. And so I you know, I used to spend a whole day trying to figure out keywords. Um definitely still use keywords, but it's its importance has diminished under this new algorithm. And uh one of the things that they um talk about is the is the visualization of your book listing and how the what they call the dwell time of a reader, and I'd like to show you um another example here of what they're talking about when it comes to that. Um let me stop sharing that screen and go to this one.
SPEAKER_03So, in summary, the A10 came after A9, which which which is which is clear. Uh the that and the A9 was reliant, to your point, on keywords, and the Amazon algorithm was basically you know content-driven, and the A10 is based on engagement that happens outside the Amazon platform as well. So it's about you bring us eyeballs and asses from outside an Amazon, and we'll reward you by placing your book better in search, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So whereas, yeah, so the the outside traffic is it's good you mentioned that because you know people have Amazon ads. Well, the Amazon ads don't rank, the algorithm won't rank those because it's internal traffic. But if you have an email list or you do promotions from outside, then that's gonna help rank your book better in this new algorithm. And what I wanted to show you on this screen is kind of what, in summary, is the this new A10 looks for. So this is our anthology just came out just a short time ago, last month or so. And the cover, okay, you can tell, I think, I hope, that it's multi-genre. You know, you've got your sci-fi stuff, you've got your old Western stuff here, and you've got uh what looks like maybe historical fiction, and and so that reflects what's in our book description, right? We touch on okay.
SPEAKER_03So just hold you there for a second. Uh, even more important in the A10 algorithm than the A9 is you need an ass-kicking cover that gets attention, that cuts through the noise, and that is reflective of what's ahead, right? To your point. So I'm guilty of this. My my cover looks like a poetry contest in Vermont for my science fiction book. And I I love it. My niece did it, but it frankly sucks for conversions, and that's because it's two cats and a bathtub. What the actual fuck does that have to do with the multiverse?
SPEAKER_02Well, you gotta read the read the story.
SPEAKER_03So, yeah, so to your great point, and then your cover rocks, which is it's intriguing, it's literally a door opening, and it shows really the multiplicity of of the stuff that's in there.
SPEAKER_02The A10 likes it if it's from a perspective where it's like what a reader would tell another reader why this book is good. So it has to feel more personal, um, the descriptions.
SPEAKER_04The other hot button item.
SPEAKER_01The other thing I noticed uh on the A10 uh algorithm is that dwell time on the page is really important too, which relates to their A plus content. Uh so we've started to add our A plus content and and Phil Phil mainly leads that up. He has more time to create that, uh, and he's really good with the graphic design and uh creates a lot of really neat uh A plus content, which is the you know, the graphic uh banners uh lower on the page for each of these books that has you know images and quotations and all of that kind of thing. So it it creates that dwell time on the page that apparently uh helps this algorithm believe that it's important to rank your your book higher, you know, in terms of getting people to see it uh if they're searching for something like that.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And and as I was mentioning, a lot of it has to do with traffic coming from outside of Amazon, which is really unique to the A10 version, which is it it definitely weights your book have heavier for searches. Yeah. So the the one challenge though is um if you're TikToking, if you're Instagramming, the only way to really get a hot link in there is to pay for advertising. And what's your approach to paid advertising, especially when it comes to the social feeds?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd say our approach is aversion uh and avoidance. Um, we will do paid uh email blasts and things like that uh for when we're launching a book or doing you know price uh drops and things like that. However, there's a there's another approach, and I think I briefly mentioned this the last time we talked. Uh I've been using this for a couple of years now, a few years, uh actually. There are these um now they are fee-based, but they're it's like a hundred bucks a year for membership. Book funnel and story origin are these uh collaborative uh platforms for authors to join. And authors work together on essentially uh cross-promoting their books to each other's uh audiences through emails. And there are links uh for the books that participate that then take them to wherever you want them to go, some of which are Amazon links uh and other uh retailers and so forth. And so those would be external links, and it's these these promotions are free. Um you just pay this membership fee each year. And they're their group promos uh and their swaps, you can do uh individual book swaps with authors. And what's neat about this is that this is where you get into doing targeted uh promotions around certain genres or certain certain kinds of books. So if you if you have science fiction books, you can do a swap or a group promo with science fiction authors, or if you do other weird shit like we do, um you can do these other weird uh group promos or uh swaps with other authors who have you know other genres that they're offering. Uh and so you you get the the freedom of doing these kinds of works and still getting the word out uh pretty effectively. I really like it. It's a very flexible format and it generates email addresses that we then add uh you know to our email database.
SPEAKER_03So that was the output from the written word media survey from last year that the backbone of every marketing campaign is the email list, is the writer. Question is though, how well does that boost the A10 to Phil's?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I wonder, you know, uh it's probably a state secret, uh, you know, at Amazon. That's right.
SPEAKER_03Phil Phil is gonna rage on Substack against uh the secrecy behind the A10 algorithm in a couple days, I think. We've we've never been able to crack the code. Uh, you know. Well, without paid advertising, that that's uh that is the the handicap, if you will, because the system's rigged against us that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, ultimately the approach is just keep writing.
SPEAKER_02And talking about how external um traffic going to Amazon, can you guys see the screen? Okay, yeah. Okay, written Word Media. They have a variety of promotions that are that are reasonably priced, right? And so they've got a number of different opportunities to send that outside traffic. And this is a supplement to your subscriber list that you're obviously going to send to your subscribers and promote a book. This is outside of that and and can be take the place of that, you know, that Amazon advertising that you've been wasting money on and actually drive a lot of people to your book from the outside. Um, typical ones we do are like bargain booksy. Uh, sometimes we do a new book release. That's probably the most pricey one. Um the reader reach ads. Now, these are where you would want to look for like Facebook ads coming through, um, from you know, external to Amazon. Uh, that's definitely something I want to work on some more. They take care of all the of all the advertising stuff. You just you know, pay whatever fee you're gonna pay for that particular time frame, um, and so forth.
SPEAKER_03You don't work for written word media. No, I'm just not a paid. I don't I okay. I just want to be clear that we are doing them a favor, and then hopefully the favor for indie authors who aren't watching is the best friend.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I if you're an indie author, you might want to you definitely want to check out written word media. And what one another one we really like is this subscribe subscriber surge giveaway. You put a book, ebook, up for um uh give the giveaways they have. It runs for 60 days, and people uh they're subs, they're you know, people who go to their website who are interested in that particular genre will see your book, they'll say, Yeah, sign me up for his email, the author's email list, and then after 60 days, written Word Media has all these email addresses to add to your growing subscriber list. And we've we've uh uh you know probably gotten anywhere from 200 to 400, depending on what book we put up to give away. And again, that's all handled through them.
SPEAKER_03The other other advantage. So you guys have dabbled in this stuff.
SPEAKER_02You guys have dabbled.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, now here's the thing. I I okay, so so Paul Paul was uh was was like me kind of shitting on paid paid media, but I think we were specifically talking about Facebook ads and doing our own campaigns. What you're talking about here, Phil, is partnering up with an outfit like written word media, and then they mediate your campaign for you.
SPEAKER_02Right. They take as far as like the ads go, um, you know, they're gonna send, they're gonna take care of the advertising. You don't have to worry about you don't have to have a Facebook page or anything like that. They just take care of all of that. Um, and they have for as far as like the Facebook ads, different lengths of time, everywhere from a few days up to I think 15 days that you can pay for. Um, of course, the longer you do it, the more expensive it is. But that's gonna feed the external traffic as well as their other promotions, which go out to hundreds of thousands of their people, you know, their readership that have signed up to be on their email distribution for giveaways, for uh bargain, you know, promotional deals like a 99 cent ebook or that sort of thing. Um, the other big one is um book blub, um more pricey than written word media. But if you if you can secure uh uh book blub featured deals, um give uh promotion through them, then you're gonna get you know well over we we've gotten anywhere from a 15, we've done it a couple of times, you know, we've gotten anywhere from 1500 to two over 2,000 uh sales that way. And and so it really it is. It it leads to it leads to uh more readers discovering you. Um but the great thing is is if you have a series and you do a feature deal uh you know uh uh promotion through bookbub or even written word media, there's a spillover, right? So you might put the first book up for sale for 90 the ebook for sale for like 99 cents, but keep the other books in the series at the regular price, 299 or above, whatever. And people will also buy those at the regular price, and that's where you kind of recoup your costs for the promotion itself, because you you get this spillover effect, you know. So I highly recommend indie authors check out um uh uh written word media as well as BookBub. And like I say, Book Bub is more pricey, and there's we'll put uh links in the description below.
SPEAKER_03Please do.
SPEAKER_02Uh and um, you know, if you're not signed up for uh written word media's um newsletter, I I recommend it. I've I've forwarded you things, Mookie.
SPEAKER_03The survey I loved, and I did a whole podcast. I did a whole podcast on that. To me, the most illuminating uh data point of that survey was authors who are successful, like they make 10 grand or more per month on their publishing, A, have on average 60 books, six zero that they got out there. That's number one. They got a whole freaking library, and number two, they're pumping at least half of that 10 grand right back into paid advertising. These were the two eye-openers, which is like you don't just publish a book and then you're a writer, and then woohoo, you tell people at cocktail parties that you're the man, and then shit just happens. So you need a whole shelf full of books usually to get that attention, sustain it. You have those repeat visitors, just like you're mentioning. You need to pump at least half of your earnings back into paid advertising. And uh, and as Paul and I were discussing, you need uh email list as a backbone so you keep that touch point going and you can offer deals and and do all that. Without that, you're just flying under the rail. Yeah, absolutely. Look, look at me. I'm flying. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's when we when we first put out uh Truth Insurrected, you know, our very first book over 10 years ago, we were like, and I think Paul has mentioned this before. We thought, oh, we got a book now, people will buy it. You know, that's not how it works.
SPEAKER_03Truer true or falsehoods have never been more frequently spoken than if if you write it, they will come. Yeah, right, right. No, they will not. No, you gotta adhere to the algorithm, you know, and what the algorithm and the system is stacked against us. So you've got all these platforms, you've got a plethora, a tumultuous weltering, a tsunami of available content. It is supply, supply, supply, and demand is what's actually there's high demand, but there's so many choices. So all these platform purveyors and the lords, the lords of the marketplace are like, I'm not gonna give you attention for free. You guys are gonna, you guys are gonna pay for it. Like, give give me money. If you want to be free, give me money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, for instance, this week, you know, we're gonna uh Asset Nightfall, which is our uh part of the Wild Frontiers Wild Frontier Chronicles series, um, officially launches this week on Thursday. And we are going to be doing launch party. We're gonna be doing a uh uh a promotion through written word media that kind of combines a few things. Uh it'll be a 99 cent deal for the ebook. Um book one, Smugglers Rebellion, and book two, neural bounty, those will both be at 299 in case there's some spillover and people want to read. Because Asset Nightfall, it's kind of it could, it's a standalone story, but ideally, if you want an entry into the series, read it first. It's kind of like a pre a prequel novel to the series. Um anyway, so that's what we got coming up. Uh, we would like to try to get another book bub uh promotion later this year on one of our books. We try to we tried to do it with uh uh showdown at at Jupiter's edge, a Maxo Magnavir uh Adventure. Uh they they didn't approve it. Whatever. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Why not?
SPEAKER_02That guy's cool.
SPEAKER_03That guy's that guy's cooler than Duke Nuka.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that they never they never really give you a reason. My assumption is, you know, I had I had put a particular time frame that I would like to run it, and there may not have been room, and so they just kicked it back, but I don't I don't know. I don't know. Uh it's it's one of our highest rated books on Amazon. It's got more than 20, you know, reviews, which I think they might look for more than 20. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_03I know I know I'm well multiply the reviews by probably 40 or 50 in terms of sales, right?
SPEAKER_02So at least at least like uh Truth Insurrected has over 300 and I think 350 reviews, um, which was our original book bug uh promotion that we did years and years ago. Um Smuggler's Rebellion, um, you know, it's got 50. Uh it doesn't quite have 50. I have to go back and look. That that is the other thing I should mention about the A10, is it does like books, it's gonna rank books higher if they have 50 or higher reviews, uh as far as like number of reviews, uh 50 or more, because it reads, you know, it reads the the reviews and gets a sense of what uh you know people are getting out of it, what they think about it, that sort of thing. Um but we've only got I think one or maybe one or two books that have reached that 50.
SPEAKER_03I I have to say I admire your focus and determination, how you mentioned you spent a whole day just fussing around with keywords to see if you can improve your ranking. I I brought this up with Etheridge, who's another Substack writer. He does the bots talking to each other. And I think I irritated, yeah, I irritated him, I think, because I I said, because he's very much into building community and he's trying to figure out a way how he can start marketing himself. And I was kind of dismissive. I was kind of like, you know what? I love writing, and I just can't get myself to actively try to build community. Like, hey, Substackers, you know, join me in creating this, you know, ensemble of genius, and at the same time, like putting together campaigns like you gentlemen are for my books. And it's I could certainly use the money and the opportunity to enter the fold in this kind of focused, determined way, and especially ironic given the fact that I'm a marketing strategist by trade for healthcare companies. I've literally been the marketing strategist on multi-million dollar multi-channel campaigns for the industry. But I I I'm having trouble getting myself to do this, which is like I love the writing. I was just watching a video of um Rick Beato, the the music maestro on YouTube. He's one of my favorite YouTubers. If you're not familiar with him, check him out. He's wonderful, he interviews everyone. And he was talking about Guthrie Gowen, who is a maestro of musicianship. He's uh he's a guitar Wunderkin. And that guy's never on social media, it's hard to find his content. And when you do, it's like a gem. Oh, he's playing, and here's a live performance. But he's like, he's just too busy like jamming to really care. And the the approach isn't so much arrogance or being dismissive of this, it's just I love to write and I love to tell stories, and I love to connect with people personally, like I'm doing with you guys. But for me to jockey meta tags on YouTube and to select, you know, the proper audience and then to run a campaign for my book. I mean, I I I just I can't get there.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Can you help me out a little? Yeah, no, I mean the the email is Does that make sense emotionally? And I know other writers are like me too, which is uh we're just like we we love the writing and we love the networking and talking and building community, but the sheer mechanism of promotion, especially when it comes to something so near and dear to our hearts, is just like I I need I need to get someone to help me, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think that with I'm with you there, Mookie. I'm I'm sitting on the same bus next to the next to you on the bus there.
SPEAKER_00Uh I uh I mean I we're in our hoodies.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm fine with certain certain aspects of it, you know, basic infrastructure, you know, some basic uh you know sort of approaches to marketing things and you know stuff like that. Um, but that that much more um I don't know what you would call detailed or nuanced or like effective um kinds of uh technical work. Uh just makes me want to puke.
SPEAKER_03I just let me write and I've had guests who do this very well, like Lou Iavino, he's another author. He's actually um part of the Madison Avenue Agency Network that I'm familiar with. We have a lot of co-colleagues who know each other. His boss, his boss now used to be my boss, so we kind of fist pump there. Lou's very concerted. He's like Facebook ads, and he looks at it like a campaign he's doing at work, and he's been pretty successful at it. Now he's trying to level up. And then on the other side, I've got the Margaret Triber, and she's this Long Island gal, and she spent 45 minutes raging on my other podcast that she can't get attention, and she's she's just pissing in the wind with all of her science fiction. So between one extreme and another, I'm like trying to trying to navigate my own sci-fi journey and find some kind of balance.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, you know, I think that uh over over the years, I have come to like my uh infidelity uh with writing, um, I have come to embrace the the marketing side of it. And if you wanna if if you're an indie author and you you want to sell more books, you want to gain more readership, because you think you have stories that are worth a damn, um you know, if you're trying to sell on Amazon, take a look at the A10 algorithm article and podcast because it's gonna be very enlightening to you. And you don't have to do it all at once. Maybe start with a book cover, you know, and you know, I I do a combination of things. Uh, I've used uh Mibble art, M-I-B-L-A-R-T.com. They're very reasonable. They do they do a variety of different um covers for you, or you know, they'll they'll give you um you know uh ideas that you can reject. And it's uh anyways, a good relationship with people there to try to build the right cover. And they also offer uh like social media promotion materials and and what the A plus uh or the A10 um algorithm loves is the dwell time that is created by your Amazon A plus content, um, which I don't think I actually was able to show you an example of I talked a little bit about it. Okay, so that A plus is is uh farther down the book page, and you have up to five modules to create um to add um you know A plus content or imagery. And that's where you get this quote unquote dwell time that that the algorithm was looking for, because readers, if they're engaged by what they're seeing in the images on the A plus, they'll they'll dwell longer on your on your book page, and that helps to rank it higher in their in the whole scheme of things. So you know, start out small book cover, then work on the description, then work on maybe um either through your own AI. I I use AI image generation prompts uh by way of flex clip. Um they have a variety of models to choose from, different and each model has its own price as far as like uh the credits it costs to generate an image. Um I've done hybrid work with MibbleArt while I uh where I'll create the base image and then bring them in to have a person create the the typeface for the book. And if if uh AI image generation isn't your thing, you know, for for us it's affordable. It's an affordable option instead of hiring uh a book designer, then you can go to places like Mavoir. And and none of these companies are you know paying me or whatever, you know.
SPEAKER_03I'm not I'm not promoting it because they we appreciate these hands-on personal best practices, and great and and they can help you and they have reasonable prices.
SPEAKER_02Um, they're overseas somewhere, but you can reach them so easily through the website to get this done. Um, and I've used them multiple times for that.
SPEAKER_03Um I need I need a fill. Well, here's where me and Paul are in the back of the bus in hoodies, and we're like, we're we're we're writers and and we're just writing our stuff, and it feels great. And Phil, you're you're you're a more practical man, and you're you're you're you're you're connecting with the world. So I'm missing I'm missing my identical Mookie.
SPEAKER_02I need my well I was you know, we talked just a bit at the beginning about your book cover for uh Johnny Fizzuli, you know, and how it's just like all over the place. And you know, what what what is it about, you know?
SPEAKER_03It's not even so much all over the place, but it's not really a it's not really genre appropriate. This became self-evident at LA Comic-Con, where I where I pitched with Ingrid Moon. Yeah now Ingrid Moon is is like you, Phil. She's um she's uh she's uh she's a serious writer and she's also character-focused, like Paul, but she combines both, and she's in it to win it. So I show up with Fazul and Super Santa, and I lay it out, and she's got her books all lined up, and they're they're just what the doctor ordered in terms of the best practices. The covers are amazing and popping, and totally what they're meant to do and meant to be. And people were just walking by based on the covers, they were drawn right in, and she was getting sales based just on the covers. And and they're looking at my stuff, and it's like, like I'm mentioning again, is this a poetry book about you know Vermont pine needles?
SPEAKER_00No, it's yeah, it's it's much more rocky than that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so so again, the cover is integral, and uh it I knew my intent doing that cover, and I like it, but there's a publishing reality, yeah, and you need to get along in order to move along, and you do have to follow the rules if you want to benefit from the system.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you absolutely um that was that was one of the recommendations I would make is do a book cover redesign for that book. The other thing is you absolutely need to have your books in ebook format available as an ebook because um, you know, we sold overall between Amazon and the the other booksellers, um, probably about 2,500 books last year. Very, very good. And and the and the promotions we do through like Written Word Media and Book Bub helped us achieve that. But the focus, you know, probably 95 to 98 percent are ebooks that we sold of that 25.
SPEAKER_03I've got ebook versions of my stuff, uh, but it's a similar problem with the kitty cats in the bathtub. They don't know what the the fuck that is. The the other issue is I had mine categorized as hard science fiction is one of them. Amazon bumped me from hard science fiction, even though there's hard science fiction elements in the Fazul, I I don't know if customers complained or if they just ran the algorithm and they're like, This is not hard science fiction. Even though I've got elements of that in there, right? They're like, This guy is is tweaking on meth and ketamine, and well I I am more than happy.
SPEAKER_02I use a book formatting software software application called Atticus, and it's great. It you you have a lot of control over what the book looks like. Um, when you're done with it, it'll give you three versions. It'll give you the the print version, it'll give you the ePUB version of it, and it'll give you a word doc of the whole thing. Um, and I am more than happy to help you out formatting uh your ebook if you want at anytime. But we can talk about that, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, for sure. People are gonna listen and watch and be like, hey Phil, right? You know, they'll help me out. No, Atticus, Atticus, ATT. We'll put the links, we'll put exhaustive links of all these resources and best practices below in the description to help folks out. And I think a key takeaway here is if you want to be a successful indie author, and by this I mean you want to get noticed, you want to sell your book, you want people to review you, you want to get invited on podcasts, you want to participate in this industry, join the tribe, then you've got no choice but to play ball when it comes to the mechanisms that Phil is describing and Paul have described too. So yeah, that's part of playing playing the game, whether you like it or not.
SPEAKER_02And as far as like where the books sell the most, it's Amazon. Like of that 2500 that we sold last year, probably 95% were on Amazon. The other five percent were on like your Apple Books or Barnes and Noble, Kobo, whatever.
SPEAKER_01So if you want the sales, Amazon is is king that's all there's you know, and and that's I I mentioned uh BookFunnel and Story Origin earlier. They also have methods to you know sell your own uh essentially ebooks and and so they can be done elsewhere, but but the fact is that you know the you know basically uh that wouldn't be really noticed. Uh, you know, uh you with Amazon you get ranked and you can uh kind of see how you stack up with others, uh really helpful. Um but but you're right, Mookie. I mean, you if you want to make a go of it as an independent writer or independent author, you you you'll need to write and you'll need to participate to some degree uh in in this process of marketing and and putting yourself out there. Otherwise, be a writer and get an agent, right? Uh or work on getting an agent, a representation of some kind.
SPEAKER_03One way or another, it's like uh you know, I had a a life partner and uh at some point in my very life I've had several. And I I'll call her out by name too, because again, give her homage. And she was terrific. Jill was terrific at hiring people to help her fill any kind of gap that she had in skill set, availability, and resourcing. So she's an awesome manager, and I think one of the takeaways here is that no one person can be good at everything, and the Jungian idea that the bright light casts long shadows is true. We're all complex people with different skill sets. Yeah, so if you know, right now this is wonderful because I got Phil and I got Paul, and you guys compliment each other and you guys are a team, but one way or another, you need to manage your publishing. You you write, you distribute, there's lots of different skill sets. So if you can't do it, find folks who can. And I think the takeaway for me is I definitely need a film and a fall. I need both of you guys. But uh, I I absolutely love what I'm doing, and I love the podcasts and the writing and all these different forms, and I'm absolutely having the time of my life cranking all of this out. Now, in terms of monetization, you know, that that lends itself to improvement and that scales. But my takeaway is you know, finding finding partners and learning how to manage this as its own enterprise, rather than tacitly assuming that as an indie author I need to do everything.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah, go ahead, Paul. I was just saying that's a good point. Yeah, this is an opportunity to collaborate. And it sounds like you've you've you've done that in the past to one degree or another, right? Um, and uh, you know, finding someone that you can work with and has the skills and uh abilities um that you need, right? Uh can be a challenge, but maybe you just need to lower that, lower that hood.
SPEAKER_03Uh you can tell I'm I'm not afraid. Right, right. I'm just I'm just I'm self-obsessed, self-absorbed, and I like doing what I like doing.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03And and and I pay for it though, in terms of these otherwise self-imposed limitations, which is not taking advantage of the resources that are out there. And I think I think what's significant here, there's a lot of indie writers who are a lot like in that.
SPEAKER_01Something small. Pick something small and try it out.
SPEAKER_03Right. Start start cranking cranking it up. So I want to be sensitive to your time. Okay. And I want to thank you both for joining us. Thanks for your insights, best practices, and inspiration. Yeah, and I just want to thank you for your wonderful content. I got a whole stack of your books that I'm going through. You know, I'm I'm knee knee deep in Richter's war, and I'm gonna, you know, write some reviews for you guys too. Thanks. Yeah, I got I got two copies of Neurobounty. Oh, wow, because you guys sent you guys sent me one and already bought to give it, I'm gonna give it to my kid. But I just want to say thank you for all your terrific work and being an inspiration and for uh and for encouraging other writers on Substack and being such an exemplary pair of uh terrific content creators, you know. Enjoy knowing you, reading your stuff, and to be continued.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely be great to hook up later in the year on some things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're not too far. I'm in uh Orange County, Southern California. You guys are sure are in Arizona, New Mexico, New Mexico. I always mix up New Mexico and Arizona, much to the chagrin of both residents. Yeah, yeah. No, it's not the same. Definitely not. Uh yeah. Thanks so much. Like, comment, and share, folks. Thank you for viewing and listening the science fiction and fantasy podcast. I'm your host, Mookie Spitz. Uh, we're eager for feedback. Hit the link below if you want to contact any and all of us, and I'll leave links to contact the brothers under the guise of uh Daniel Douglas, you know, on their own website and sign up to their newsletter so you can be informed. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Appreciate it.
